1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you, from house to 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: books not com Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristen Christen. Today's podcast topic, as you know, 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: because hello, I've talked to you about it, comes courtesy 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: of a friend of mine who you know, he listens 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: to the podcast a lot. He actually gets ideas for 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: his own personal blog, which he refuses to share with 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: me by listening to the podcast and kind of either 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: rebutting or whatever. But anyway, we got to talking about 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: open relationships, open marriages, and my friend has been with 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: his wife for many, many years. They they've known each 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: other since they were very young, and they've been married 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: for for years and years. And I'm not sure of 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: the specifics whether this is a situation that evolved or 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: whether it's something that they specifically talked about, but he 16 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: and his wife have a pretty open marriage, and you 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: know that involves they both have friends of the opposite 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: sex who they might take trips with, they hang out with. 19 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: So he was very excited for us to cover this topic. 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: So you would say that your friend and his wife 21 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: are consensually non monogamous, I would say that that's the 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: more clinical term for an open relationship. And we did 23 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: a podcast on polyamory and you can even find the 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: article how polyamory works on how staff works dot com. 25 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: And there is a difference between open relationships and polyamory. 26 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: There was a blog post about this over at Open 27 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: Love New York blog, which is authored by a polyamorous couple, 28 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: and one wrote, one way of looking at it is 29 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: that polly can describe the mindset and open relationship can 30 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: describe the factual arrangement like lovers and married. So basically, 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: while all Polly relationships would be considered open, all open 32 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: relationships would not necessarily be polyamorous because polyamory focuses more 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: not just on sex, but actually having relationships outside of 34 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: the one on one coupling. So open relationships might involve 35 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: just swinging or just sex when you are out of town, 36 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: or whatever kind of consensual, non monogamous arrangement you agree 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: to write. But one thing it is not is cheating 38 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: exactly because and we'll get into this and we'll probably 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: beat it into your heads over and over again. But 40 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: the major difference with open relationships versus cheating, uh, an 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: obvious one is that it is consensual, Like we said, 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: and you talk it to death. Communication is a major 43 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: factor in open relationships. And if you are a follower 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: of Dan Savage, if you listen to his podcast Arida's Calm, 45 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: you know that he talks about these a lot, but 46 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: he calls it something else. He calls it monogamish. And 47 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: there was a huge article all actually about this idea 48 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: of monogamish in the New York Times magazine a couple 49 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: of years ago, and Dan Savage said, I acknowledge the 50 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 1: advantages of monogamy when it comes to sexual safety, infections, 51 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: emotional safety, paternity assurances, but people in monogamous relationships have 52 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: to be willing to meet me a quarter of the 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: way and acknowledge the drawbacks of monogamy around boredom, despair, 54 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 1: lack of variety, sexual death, and being taken for granted. 55 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I thought it was bad at despair, but 56 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: when he got to sexual death, that just really sounds 57 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: grim And and Savage kind of looks at being monogamish 58 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: or having an open relationship not as something that indicates 59 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: that you love your partner, less that you are not 60 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: turned on by or in love with this person at 61 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: all anymore. It's more of a way to kind of 62 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, what would you say, like satisfy desires 63 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: and urges and keep thing exciting while growing even closer 64 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: to your partner. Absolutely, I think it's a form of 65 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: relationship preservation, at least the way that he approaches it, 66 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of people who are in open relationships 67 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: would probably agree. And speaking of which, the statistics around 68 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: how many American adults at least are in open relationships 69 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: slash open marriages is a little bit sketchy since a 70 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: lot of open couples are closeted due to the negative 71 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: stereotypes around them. But according to some research that has 72 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: come out of the University of Michigan's Connolly Lab estimates 73 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: that around five percent of Americans are in consensually non 74 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: monogamous relationships. Right and Darren Langridge, who's a clinical therapist, 75 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: told The Guardian that non monogamous relationships are actually surprisingly 76 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: common and the numbers are increasing. I mean, in one 77 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: article we read, they were talking about how a lot 78 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: of that probably has to do with the Internet. Honestly, like, 79 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: I mean not, I'm not saying that the Internet is 80 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: like fueling a fetish or something. It's just the fact 81 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: that the Internet allows people who live their lives in 82 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: certain ways and maybe that are in a minority of 83 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: the population finally can connect with each other and realize, Okay, 84 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: I'm I'm normal, and other people do this and I 85 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: can connect with them. Yeah, that was a huge thing 86 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: that came up in our discussion on polyamory, where it 87 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: was allowing people to actually form communities, like minded communities. UM. 88 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: And speaking of communities, the Connolly Lab did find that 89 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: it is slightly more common among LGBT couples, and it's 90 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: probably gay men in that group who are skewing those 91 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: numbers a bit, because repeatedly studies do find the game 92 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: mail couples are a lot more likely to be open UM. 93 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: For instance, there's a two ten study which found that 94 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: of Bay Area gay men had extra relationship sex with 95 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: this is important their partner's knowledge and approval. And when 96 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: I went and looked for academic research on open relationships, 97 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: an overwhelming majority we're all focused on gay mail populations. Yeah. Well, 98 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: an article I read the Advocate was interesting. It was 99 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: talking about open relationships among gay and straight couples and 100 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: how kind of kind of saying that, UM, the openness 101 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: of a lot of gay relationships is influencing a lot 102 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: of straight relationships and how those die ads work and 103 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,559 Speaker 1: how people people's attitudes are changing about open relationships and things. 104 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 1: But they do point out this is kind of a sidebar. 105 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: They do point out that with the fight for marriage equality, 106 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: there's a lot of pressure on a lot of gay 107 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: couples to shut up about their open relationships and kind 108 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: of in order to reach that equality, conform to this 109 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: ideal of you know, of what marriage is supposed to be, 110 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: which is between just two people. But you know, as 111 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: we'll get into, that don't work for everybody. That don't 112 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: work for everybody, and it is unfortunate because that only 113 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: perpetuates negative and often off base, as we'll learn in 114 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: a little bit stereotypes about how open relationships often work. 115 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: But you know what, a lot of people in especially 116 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: in heterosexual arrangements, are doing, Caroline, They're having sex outside 117 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: of marriage, and not necessarily in a consensually non monogamous 118 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: kind of way. There's a lot of cheating going on. Yeah. 119 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: Two thousand one Journal of Family Psychology study found that 120 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: infidelity occurs in a reliable minority of American marriages that's 121 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: between twenty of all Americans who are having sex with 122 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: someone other than their spouse, and it's non consensual and 123 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: it's not communicated about. It is something that is done 124 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: without their knowledge. Yeah, and for men versus women breakdown. 125 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: A two thousand ten University of Chicago research center found 126 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: it fourteen percent of ever married women and of ever 127 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: married men said that they've had affairs. Well, and I 128 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: think what a lot of people are saying, especially Dan Savage, 129 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: are like, as far as affairs versus open marriage, wouldn't 130 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: it just be better for people instead of going out 131 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: and having affairs, they could potentially come back and really 132 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: crush your partner, ruin your relationship. Wouldn't it be better 133 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: to just have that discussion one way or another of saying, hey, 134 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: do you want to do this? Is is is something that 135 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: we can do and survive and then set those ground rules. Yeah, 136 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: because it's not like historically people especially men not to 137 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: harp on men, but especially men having sex outside of 138 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: marriages is nothing new whatsoever. And the author of a 139 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: History of Marriage puts it thus late She says, the 140 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: problem in America is that the so called open marriage 141 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: has usually been somewhat one sided. To be a real 142 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: open marriage. It has to be, like we've said, a 143 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: mutual decision. But for most of history, men had open 144 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: marriages and women didn't. Men had affairs and women had 145 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: to put up with it. Yeah, we can go back 146 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: to say, the eighteenth century when men talked openly of 147 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: their mistresses and prostitutes in letters, and it's not so 148 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 1: great still for the women. I think you found some 149 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: some research on this as well, about kind of the 150 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: maintenance of those extramarital relationships. Well. Darcie Eaton, who, along 151 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: with Janet W. Hardy, is an author of The Ethical Sleut, 152 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: A Practical Guide to polyamory, open Relationships and other Adventures, 153 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: wrote that it used to be considered that if you 154 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: had a mistress, it was almost your ethical job to 155 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: make sure your partner didn't find out, because anything else 156 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: would be totally disrespectful of your partner. And this led 157 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: to what was essentially tacit permission for men to have 158 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: affairs as long as they were discreet. And so you know, 159 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: the thinking goes like, well, okay, so it's respectful to 160 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: have an affair as long as you're quiet about it. 161 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: And but you know, nowadays with the freak I don't 162 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: mean to sound like an old like grandmother sitting on 163 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: my porch and my rocking chair, shaking my fist. But 164 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: like with the internet these days, like how how discreet 165 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: can we actually be? Right? Well, I will say that 166 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: open marriage did have quite a moment in not so 167 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: surprisingly the seventies, because in nineteen seventy two George and 168 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: Nanna O'Neill published a book called Open Marriage, and it 169 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: spent more than forty weeks on the New York Times 170 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: bestseller list, and open Marriage came out of the cultural closet, 171 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: and this book also was ultimately translated into fourteen languages. 172 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: It was kind of a revolutionary text that was published. 173 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: And so there was this moment when, okay, maybe this 174 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: is something that we could try out because we're coming 175 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: out of the more mad minished era when you think 176 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: of Don Draper having all of these affairs, and open 177 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: marriage was more of, uh, this proclamation that it doesn't 178 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: have to be that way, right, we can actually do 179 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: this whole concentral nonmonogamy in a way that's that's good 180 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: for both Don and Betty. You know, well, if you 181 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: think about it, I mean this it's not like this 182 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: stuff was never going on before this book, you know, 183 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: I be I feel like this book was to open 184 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: marriage then what the internet is now for us, Like 185 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: it brought it to people's attention that other people are 186 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: doing it, that it wasn't necessarily something to be quite 187 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: so ashamed of or kept so secret. You know that 188 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: this is in fact something that goes on in other 189 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: cultures and with other couples. Yeah. But still, and maybe 190 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: it was because of the more conservative wave that came 191 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: through in the nineteen eighties, the moment for open marriage 192 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: went by the wayside, and now decades later, a lot 193 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: of people who are in open relationships, which is still 194 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: a slim minority. It's not it's not a common thing 195 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: at all, but a lot of them remain closeted because 196 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: of this laundry list of negative stereotypes that we have 197 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: about people who openly have sex outside of marriage, which 198 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: I find so ironic because it's almost like we punish 199 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: them more than we would punish cheaters. Yeah, because they're, well, 200 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: they're daring to go against social norms. I mean, there 201 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: are people who would argue that, you know, you're not 202 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: respecting the institution of marriage. But on the other hand, 203 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: why is it any of your freaking business what other 204 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: people do well? And I feel like today when not 205 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: to just pull out the same things that people say 206 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: over and over again, but yet again, if you look 207 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: at divorce rates and all of those different statistics, it's like, 208 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: who is respecting the sanctity of marriage? Right? And if 209 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: you are doing something in agreement with your partner in 210 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: order to strengthen your relationship and remain married, especially if 211 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: you have children of that marriage, I mean, is that 212 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: not good? I mean that's I mean that that is 213 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: one thing that Dan Savage argues of. If you can 214 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: do something to strengthen your marriage and make you happier 215 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: as a couple and so you stay together, right, is 216 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: that not? Yeah? And that's I mean that's not to 217 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: say that, Hey, if you're having relationships problems, go to 218 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: a swingers club right now. But let's at least take 219 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: a moment and see whether or not those negative stereotypes 220 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: are actually true. Right. So there was one University of 221 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: Michigan survey that asked they gave two hypothetical couples. One 222 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: was non monogamous and one was monogamous, and they had 223 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: all these things that you could rate them on and 224 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: before we get into like the major stereotypes about non 225 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: monogamous couples, I would just like to take them to 226 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: point out that in the results of that University of 227 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: Michigan study, people judged the non monogamous couples as less 228 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: likely to floss on a daily basis and more likely 229 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: to pay their taxes late. We just think they're terrible people. 230 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 1: We think they are horrible people. We also think that 231 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: they are sexually risky because of course they're just going 232 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: out leaving the kids with god knows who and and 233 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: having sex with with strangers. But in fact, a study 234 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: I think this was the University of Michigan study, found 235 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: that people in open relationships were actually much more likely 236 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: to engage in sexual risk prevention than people who were cheating, 237 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: including doing things like using condoms, using glows for genital touching, 238 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: discussing sexually transmitted diseases and sexual history, and sterilizing sex toys. Yeah, 239 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: and they pointed out that cheaters were much more likely 240 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: to be drunk or on drugs during their outside encounters 241 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: because of that whole life. Oh no, I'm just doing 242 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: this by the seat of my pants, So you know, 243 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: it's like they're they're under the influence of things, which 244 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: we've talked about before, and you know relation to other issues. 245 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: When you are under the influence of substances, you are 246 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: less likely to be safe in your sexual encounters. And 247 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: just to reinforce this point, there was a two thousand 248 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: in ten study which found that of game in and 249 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: open relationships took specific steps to ensure sexual health. Because 250 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it makes total sense that that's the case, 251 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: because a lot of times, in the best case scenario 252 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: for open relationships, you were entering into this agreement with 253 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: a lot of conversation. You're getting into some radical communication territory, 254 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: and so of course you're going to be maybe more 255 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: willing and open to talk about safety as well. Yeah, 256 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: another myth is that open relationships are are less emotionally 257 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: satisfying then closed relationships. And sure, there are certainly issues 258 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: of jealousy that will come up in open relationships. If 259 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: you read it, pretty much any article on that, people 260 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: will acknowledge like, hey, yeah, of course we've had a 261 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: deal with those kinds of issues. Um, But again, because 262 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: there's been so much academic focus on game mail couples, 263 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: that's why they keep coming up. There was a twenty 264 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: tent study which found that game mail relationships are the 265 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: only couple type that report equal satisfaction whether or not 266 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: their relationships are sexually open or closed. But what made 267 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: the difference for those couples and their happiness had nothing 268 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: to do with monogamy. It hinged on open communication and 269 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: established relationship rules. Yeah, there was one gosh was it 270 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: the Advocate article. I'm sorry I can't remember, but there 271 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: was one article that talked to one gay couple who 272 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: one of the partners, Gary, I think his name was Gary. 273 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: Gary raised the idea of having an open relationship. His 274 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: partner did not like the idea, was against it. He's like, 275 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: do you not love me? Do not find me attractive anymore? 276 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: But then they slowly, like just communicated about it more 277 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: and more, and we're like, okay, well we're gonna start 278 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: here where it's both of us and this other person. Okay, well, 279 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: then we're going to broaden it up to like we 280 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: can both do things, but we have to tell each other. 281 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: And then it kind of like grew from there. They communicated, 282 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: they set those rules that both of them were comfortable with. 283 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: That was the thing. So that Gary's partner did not 284 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: feel like he was being dragged, kicking and screaming into 285 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: a scenario he didn't want to be in. It was 286 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: more like, okay, well, let's talk about it, get comfortable 287 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: with the idea, and and do what we are happy with. 288 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: And Gary wasn't stuck wondering should I cheat? Right? Should 289 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: I not? Right? Um? And speaking of which, there's this 290 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: idea that open relationships are just doomed because of course 291 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: you're not you know, you're having sex with other people, 292 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: or not having sex but entertaining other people. Um. Again, 293 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: Gary and his partner probably, according to research, probably have 294 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: longer partnerships than people in sexually exclusive relationships. Yeah. And 295 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: people do assume that those in open relationships are completely 296 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: just emotional robots. Yeah, they just want sex. Right. But 297 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: a study of gay men and open relationships found that 298 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: that avoidant attachment was not a factor. Yeah. And the 299 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: researchers were surprised by that because their hypothesis was that 300 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: men who would be all about open relationships would be 301 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: less into the idea of really close emotional bonds. And 302 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: they found that oh wait, no, there's actually both. They 303 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: actually are emotionally healthy and sexually satisfied. Huh. Okay, Well, now, 304 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: speaking of emotions, what about jealousy. Jealousy has got to 305 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: be the deal breaker, right, Caroline, You would think it 306 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: would be. I mean, it's a natural emotion, everybody feels it. 307 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: But studies on polyamorous couples have found that not only 308 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: is jealousy not a major problem thanks to all of 309 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: that communication that we mentioned, but there's also really no 310 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: real gender difference in the amount of jealousy experienced. Yeah. 311 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: There's even a term called compersion that Polly people might 312 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: be familiar with, because it's a term which is the 313 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: happiness that you feel for your partner when he or 314 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: she finds someone else that they're interested in. In the 315 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: same way, Caroline, that I would be really happy for 316 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: you if you got an amazing new car or something. 317 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: You know, there's something really great happened to you, I would, 318 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: I would feel joy on your behalf. And can you imagine, 319 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: I mean, to me, the idea of compulsion of me 320 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: getting psyched about my boyfriend finding another girlfriend for you, honey, Yeah, 321 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: that's foreign to me. I don't understand, but it exists. Yeah, 322 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,719 Speaker 1: I I also have a hard time imagining that. Uh, 323 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: But if it is the type of relationship you have, 324 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: and you're open and honest, and you honestly both of 325 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: you want this for the other person and for yourselves, 326 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: then yeah, I could see being excited. You're a go getter. 327 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: You went and got that goal. That's right, you achieved 328 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: that goal of finding someone else to date. Hooray. But 329 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: there is, though, this question of whether or not open 330 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: relationships are more slanted towards the desires of men. I mean, again, 331 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: we've talked about how a lot of this research in 332 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: a rarity actually for research is focused on gay men 333 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: because our idea is that, well, men want more sex, 334 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: women want more bonding, more relationship, So our open relationships 335 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: just women saying, well, I don't want to lose you, 336 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: so let's go to that swingers club or or whatever 337 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: the arrangement might be. Well. I thought that Dan Savage 338 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: had a really interesting take, and by interesting, I mean 339 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: it's it's a little harsh, but he had an interesting 340 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: take on the topic. He said that the mistake that 341 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: straight people made was imposing the monogamous expectation on men. 342 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: He said men were never expected to be monogamous. Men 343 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: had concubines, mistresses, and access to prostitutes, until everybody decided 344 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: that marriage had to be egalitarian and phairsy Uh in 345 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: the feminist revolution, rather than extending to women the same 346 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: latitude and license and pressure release valve that men had 347 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: always enjoyed, we extended to men the confines women had 348 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: always endured. And it's been a disaster for marriage. What 349 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: do you think about that? That's pretty intense. That is 350 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: pretty intense, and I don't agree with all of it. 351 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: I don't like putting men and women in such tightly 352 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: confined in boxes because I know plenty of men who 353 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: don't want sex outside of their relationships, who are extremely monogamous, 354 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: textbook monogamous, and I know plenty of women who would 355 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: not at an eyelash at being able to have sex 356 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: with more than one guy. More Meryl um So and 357 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: Dan Savage does get a lot of flak from women 358 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: because he sometimes tends to uh downplay how much we 359 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: do enjoy sex and how fluid our desire can be 360 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: as well. Um So, I think it's extreme what he's saying. 361 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: Um And feminist bloggers Steady Doyle also isn't quite on 362 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: board with that. Yeah, she says that putting all the 363 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: us on the person who doesn't have that fetish or desire. 364 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: Particularly if the person who doesn't have that desires the woman, 365 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: really reproduces a lot of old structures and means of 366 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: oppression for women. Although I was surprised there was a 367 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: whole room for debate section in the New York Times 368 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: about open marriage when a few years ago Newt Gingrich 369 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: is politician Newt Gingrich who hails from Georgia and has 370 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: a weak handshake. Oh really small, ted, but huh okay, Well, 371 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: his ex wife came out and said that he wanted 372 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: an open marriage, and as we all know, he is 373 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: now married to his long time mistress. And so everybody 374 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: all of a sudden was talking about open marriage because 375 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: you know, we have someone like Dan Savage, who of 376 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: course is all about monogamous but for a very conservative 377 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: Republican politician to be rumored to have wanted an open marriage, 378 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: which seems like such a crazy idea, then you know 379 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: everybody's got to talk. Well, and you know, he was 380 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: so slam for it, uh and he you know, he 381 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: was like, oh, that's filth. I can't believe you're reporting 382 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: on that. Those are such terrible lies, terrible terrible lies. 383 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, I don't know. I mean the 384 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: fact that he asked his wife. Okay, granted she didn't 385 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: want it, that's fine, she doesn't. She doesn't have to 386 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: participate in this. She doesn't have to be okay with 387 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: that at all. But the fact that he asked his 388 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: wife tells me like, Okay, well, you know, it's not 389 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: like he's without all right, I'm saying this is not 390 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: really a new Genger supporter, But it's not like he's 391 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: without a moral compass, you know. It's like maybe he 392 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: just found in his now wife, Maybe he just found 393 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: someone who is more on board with the idea of 394 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: not consensual non monogamy. Or the scenario in my mind 395 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: is and this is taking him away from the situation. Um, 396 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: I could see an open relationship being proposed because someone 397 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: started cheating, got found out right, and doesn't want to 398 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: stop and say, well, give me the permission to do this, 399 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: let's make it open, which is absolutely the wrong way 400 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: to go about that. And that's not open now because 401 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: exactly because getting caught and just asking for permission when 402 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: the other person really just wants you and only you, 403 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: I think, is setting yourself up for a downfall big time. 404 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: Big time, and so that resonates a lot with what 405 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: Doyle is saying in terms of, you know, it shouldn't 406 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: be something that women should just be should just have 407 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: to go along with so that they can be down, 408 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: so that they can be good wives, good girl friends. 409 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: I think how good in quotes it is for women, 410 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: whether they're in a relationship with a man or a woman. 411 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: Um really depends on how the approach to opening up 412 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: a relationship happens. Is it coming from a good place 413 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: or not. Yeah, I mean there was a gross I 414 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: have a gross example, like I actually had to put 415 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: my laptop down. I was like, this girl is just 416 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: on another planet. Uh Cosmo, of all magazines, you know, 417 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: it's my favorite. I had a column where the guy 418 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: was there, I don't know the columnists was interviewing a 419 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: woman who was in an open relationship with her boyfriend. 420 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: But he's like, why did you do this? Like what 421 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: what made you decide to do this? Her answer made 422 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: me so sad. It was like, well, you know, my 423 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: boyfriend is a bartender, and so I just really can't 424 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: expect him to be monogamous and I don't want to 425 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: put that demand on him, and so I have you know, 426 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: come to accept that this is the best way to 427 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: keep him. Come on that that to me is not 428 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: the true definition of an open relationship either, because she 429 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: felt kind of coerced into it, manipulated into it, like 430 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: the whole excuse of like, well, men are gonna sew 431 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: their wild oats, you know, all that stereotype crap, you know, like, Okay, well, 432 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: you know what, maybe he's just not a good boyfriend. Right, 433 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: and again, I'll go back to the fact that there 434 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: are plenty of dudes out there who want monogamy and 435 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: they're fine with monogamy, and she could probably find one 436 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: of those men. I mean, monogamy is uh, scientifically, biologically, 437 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: anthropologically speaking, a ridiculous standard that we have because we 438 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: stay married for so long, because we're expected to only 439 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: have sex with one person for forty or fifty years. 440 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: That's crazy talk. Um no, I'm not saying morally. Someone's 441 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: probably like, oh my god, what is Kristen saying? Your 442 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: mother is going to write a the letter. Yeah, I mean, 443 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: if you talk to any scientists, um, it is it's 444 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: it's such an anomaly in nature that we do this, 445 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: and they are perfectly good reasons, Like Dan Savage said, 446 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: for monogamy being this gold standard in society for things 447 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: like sexual safety, paternity assurance, emotional safety, it provides a 448 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: reliable structure for us. Yes, Um. And by the same token, though, 449 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: opening up a relationship or just saying just have sex 450 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: just to stay with me, it being a lastitch effort 451 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: to cater to someone else's needs, that that just breeds resentment. 452 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: That's just opening up a panderous box of resentment. Well, 453 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: and the thing is, I think a lot of people 454 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: react really strongly when a conversation about open relationships happens, 455 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: because it's almost like we hear about it and we 456 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: assume that Dan Savage or George and Nana O'Neill, who 457 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: wrote Open Marriage in nineteen seventy two, are saying, Hey, everybody, 458 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: open it up, let's have a free for all. Yeah, 459 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's definitely not what they're saying. I 460 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: think they were maybe more trying to reach towards equality 461 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: and happiness and an egalitarian relationship and marriage. Yeah, I mean, 462 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: for um, Nana O'Neill, for instance, she's in nineteen she 463 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: said quote, I don't think we ever saw it as 464 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: a concept for the majority, and certainly it hasn't proven 465 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: to be. And I was skimming through open marriage and 466 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: it's a lot more about evening out the dynamics in 467 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: a relationship, because you think about it, this was published 468 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two. Essentially, what they were outlining was 469 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: a couple that wasn't the leave it to beaver woman 470 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: at home cooking dinner and having Scotch ready for the 471 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: man when he comes home from earning the money, um, 472 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: rather than it just being a swingers manifesto, right, And 473 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: you know what, I I do think that even if 474 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: you do not want an open relationship, it's not for 475 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: you and your partner. I think we have a lot 476 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: to learn from people who are in open relationships, because 477 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: if you are in a consensually non monogamous relationship and 478 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: it is successful, holy crap, are you doing a lot 479 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: of communication. And I think the amount of communication, mutual support, 480 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: and just that openness and vulnerability, you know, you're exposing 481 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: yourself to something a little scary and and not normal 482 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: by a lot of our standards, that really lays a 483 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: very strong foundation for your relationship. And I think if 484 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: more of us were able to communicate with our partners 485 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: more openly like that we would all probably have better relationships, 486 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: and I think that requires a solid foundation of trust. Yeah, 487 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: I think that it would be hard to UM. And 488 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: I really want to hear from listeners on this because 489 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm I'm sure that there are people listening who are 490 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: in these scenarios or have been. UM, I think it 491 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: would be so hard to start off a relationship open. 492 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I feel like there are those components. The communication, 493 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: the trust, the mutual respect, all of those things takes 494 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: time to build, and I think it would be really 495 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: hard to establish that foundation when other people are in 496 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: the mix. Well it's kind of like, well, what point 497 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: do you have to stay together? Right if you don't 498 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: have some kind of foundation, Um, just between you two, 499 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: what's the point of staying together if you find some 500 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: hot other thing to sleep with? You know, like there's yeah, 501 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, but that's just me. And one thing 502 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: we haven't even touched on and don't even have time 503 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: to is what about the kids? That came up a 504 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: lot in the episode on polyamory of how couples and 505 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: UM groups will also have kids and you know kind 506 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: of how they work all those things out. UM, But 507 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure that Hey, well, the kids of the Wonder 508 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: Woman creator and his wife Marston and their mistress. Those kids, 509 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I don't know how they're doing. 510 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if they're happy or not. But I 511 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: mean there were four children in that polyamorous relationship. Yeah, 512 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: and they and they lived to tell the tale, right, Um, 513 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: So what do you think should we toss it to listeners? Totally? 514 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: I want to hear. I want to hear from people. Yeah, 515 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: I think. Just to clarify, neither not a Caroline nor I, well, 516 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: I don't know speak for you, Caroline. I am not 517 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: in an open relationship, but oh my gosh, I haven't 518 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: even been with my partner long enough to even like 519 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: have any time or focus that I could even like 520 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: spare away from our relationship. That's my thing. Like, I mean, 521 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: I have never been in an open relationship and I've 522 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,239 Speaker 1: never really had the strong desire to be. But you know, so, 523 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: um yeah, if that's your thing, that's cool with me. 524 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm fine with that. But yeah, I I barely have 525 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: time to see my boyfriend, so I don't know how 526 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: I would see someone else. But I can imagine though, 527 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: from the perspective of your friend who kicked off this 528 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: whole conversation we're having, who has known his wife for 529 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: years and years and years and years. How it might 530 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: be a very different scenario, right, So let us know 531 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: what you think. Mom staff a Discovery dot Com is 532 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: where you can send your letters. We want to hear 533 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: from you. Pros, cons, thumbs up, thumbs downs, open relationship thoughts. 534 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: Send them our way and you can also hit us 535 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: up on Facebook or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. 536 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: And now back to our letters. Well, we got a 537 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: couple letters here in response to our episode on women's cycling, 538 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: and the first one is from Gali, who was the 539 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: listener who suggests that we do the podcast, and I 540 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: just wanted to share with you that she says, I 541 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: avidly read the six Bicycling for Ladies books that was 542 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: linked on the Stuff I'm Never Told You tumbler and 543 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: learned that apparently bullion was considered a stimulant like tea 544 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: and coffee. Brilliant stuff. Oh and there was also a 545 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: good bit about always having a small reserve of chocolate 546 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: or beef tablet for snacking mid ride. Beef tablets. I 547 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: can only imagine the looks my fellow cyclists would give 548 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: me of were to take out a beef tablet. Many 549 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: already consider it weird that I prefer plain old dried 550 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: figs as mid ride snacks instead of bars or gels. 551 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: It's funny health times change. That book also showed that shamnois, 552 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: which is a type of towel, we're not really things 553 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: one discussed back then. Today those things are generally not 554 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: discussed either, to my utter dismay, because it takes quite 555 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: a few trials and airs to figure out on their 556 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: own that not all shamois is the same, and that 557 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: not everyone's private parts respond the same way to different 558 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: materials and cut especially during a five or six hour ride. 559 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: As someone set on sum ride, cycling is good for 560 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: your whole body, except your outer vagina. But I guess 561 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: that's t m my stuff and wouldn't have been of 562 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: interest in eighteen nineties six. Thank you, Gali. Okay, I 563 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: have an email from Tristan who says I just listened 564 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: to the episode about women cycling in which you mentioned 565 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: regulations on women. It grew out of concern for reproductive help. 566 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: I found this funny because spending a lot of time 567 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: cycling can actually cause a rectile dysfunction in men. The 568 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: way body weight is supported on the bike seat places 569 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on nerves connected to the genitals, 570 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: as well as the circulatory system to and from the penis. 571 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: From my understanding, you were only at risk if you 572 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: spend hours a day on a bike, and most of 573 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: the problems will correct themselves if you stop cycling for 574 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: a while. I thought you might find the misplaced concern interesting. 575 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: So thanks Christmas oh Man who knew cycling was so 576 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: hard on the genitals. The hard day's work prayer jumps right, 577 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: So thanks to everyone who has written in about cycling 578 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: and genitals and all sorts of things. Mom Stuff Discovery 579 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send your letters. You 580 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast, like us 581 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and follow us on tumbler. Stuff Mom Never 582 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: Told You dot tumbler dot com, and if you want 583 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: to watch us, you know what to do. Go over 584 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: to YouTube dot com slash stuff Mom Never Told You, 585 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: where we have seven d videos maybe more and that 586 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: now and click the subscribe button for more on this 587 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff works 588 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: dot com