1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and you're listening to stuff mom 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: never told you. Today, we're continuing the conversation around role overload, 3 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: that feeling of wearing too many hats, of trying to 4 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: be everything to everyone, that psychological experience that can really 5 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: easily lead to overwhelm, burnout, disengagement, and stress. We've talked 6 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: through this work life balanced kind of conversation by unpacking 7 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: role overload from a variety of angles Already. We've talked 8 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: with Tiffany Doofu about working motherhood. We've talked with Liz 9 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: O'Donnell about being a working daughter with aging parents to 10 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: care for. And today we want to give a shout 11 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: out to all the single ladies. We're two single ladies, 12 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: are selves were childless and marriage less, and we Heathen's 13 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: want work life balance too. Gosh darn it. Yeah, I 14 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: always hate how work life balance is sort of presented. 15 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: First of all, just it's a thing for women, but 16 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: also a thing for women who have families. Just because 17 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: I don't have kids, or a spouse or a husband 18 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: doesn't actually mean that these things aren't important to me, 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: that I don't have things in my life that I 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: need to prioritize and balance. It's because I'm a single 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: woman doesn't mean that these things don't show up in 22 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: my life exactly. And I think we often leave single 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: women out of this conversation because the struggle is real 24 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: for working parents, and the struggle is real for workers 25 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: with aging parents to care for. Caretaking is no easy feet. 26 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: But being childless or child free in the United States 27 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: still comes with different roles and responsibilities that we play 28 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: to others in our lives. So it doesn't mean you 29 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: can't experience role conflict if you don't have familial obligations 30 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: and those sort of traditional markers of womanhood to contend with. 31 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: But that's the thing, even if you don't have children, 32 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: you still have familial relationships, right, Like, Yeah, I still 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: focus on being a good sister, a good daughter, All 34 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: these family responsibilities still show up in my life. Just 35 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: because I don't have a kid, the mix doesn't mean 36 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: that I don't still have a lot of obligations, you know, 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: involving my family. You mean you have a life outside 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: of work. I do have a life outside of how 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: dare you bridget how audacious? So it's real, And I 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: would argue that if we make family leave or workplace 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: flexibility only available to women who are moms, are only 42 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: available to those with aging parents or those with caretaking responsibilities. 43 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: We actually sidetrack those workers, and we do us all 44 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: of this service. We should make that the norm. And 45 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: here in the United States, we've had kind of a 46 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: long fraught relationship with the concept of being a woman 47 00:02:55,320 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 1: who is child free. Not wanting children has slow we 48 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: become more recognized as a legitimate choice, but it wasn't 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: always Quite frankly, there used to be a lot more 50 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: shade and judgment brought to that choice in someone's life. 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: And I would say, there's still a lot of judgment. Yeah. 52 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, maybe we've gotten better at 53 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: this and made some progress in terms of how we 54 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: think about people who are childless by choice. But I 55 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: don't think that we're there yet at all. I have 56 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: plenty of friends, most of whom are female, who say, 57 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want kids. I'm child free by choice, 58 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: which is not my thing. And all the time they 59 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: talk about how everyone says you'll change your mind one day, 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: wait till you get to be a certain age, blah 61 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: blah blah. I actually have a friend who's documented her 62 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: attempts to get her tubes side so that she could 63 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: not have children, and so many doctors out there flat 64 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: out refused to do this procedure for her because they say, oh, 65 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to do this now when you're young, 66 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: when you're in your thirties, because you're gonna come back 67 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: to me in two years and change your mind. And 68 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: she's like, no, I'm not. I've made a choice. Nobody 69 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: seems to believe that she has made a life choice 70 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: to be childless on her on her own accord. Yeah, 71 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: it's a very weird relationship that our society has with that. 72 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: And honestly, this conversation around being a single woman and 73 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: wanting work life balance applies to women who eventually want 74 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: children as well as those who've made that choice that 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: children isn't just not for them. Laura Carol writes in 76 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: Fortune magazine, people don't have children for many reasons. People 77 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: want children and are childless because they're waiting to find 78 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: the right relationship before having them. Others are in a 79 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: relationship and childless due to fertility issues. Still, others end 80 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: up with no children after saying no to another round 81 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: of IVF or adoption, whether child free or childless, we 82 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: still have a ways to go when it comes to 83 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,239 Speaker 1: society accepting those with no children without judgment or stigma. 84 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: And this lack of acceptance, she says, has played out 85 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: in the workplace. Well, that's unquestionably true. I also love 86 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: that she actually unpacks the various reasons that someone would 87 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: be childless. Some people have made a choice to be 88 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: child read and that's their thing. Some people want children 89 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: but having trouble, you know, conceiving. Basically, it's one of 90 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: those things where we assume we know what the situation is, 91 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: but it can be any number of situations. And whatever 92 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: that situation is, we need to have workplace principles that 93 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: allow for folks who don't have children to still have 94 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: the flexibility they need. Exactly, and we've actually seen childlessness 95 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: rise steeply from the nineteen seventies to about two thousand 96 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: and five. Thank you birth control. Okay, shout out to 97 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: birth control. It's since declined again since two thousand and five, 98 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: and Ohio State University sociologist Sarah Hayford found that a 99 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: decline in marriage rates contributed most to the rise in childlessness. 100 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: She writes, quote, getting married can change people's minds about 101 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: having kids. To some marriage means having children, so I'm 102 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: entering this married world and taking on other things that 103 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: go along with it. In fact, they cited a reader 104 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: who said, I've always said that I never knew I 105 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: wanted children until I knew I wanted children with him. 106 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: Her experience seems to really reflect some other women out there. 107 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: Of women never have kids, but most of us start 108 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: out agnostic. They say, oh, I don't know if I 109 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: want kids. I haven't met the right guy who knows. 110 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: We'll see. I think that really shows how kids are. 111 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: The choice to have kids or not can really play 112 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: out in women's lives. And I feel like the LGBTQ 113 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: community that whole conversation has changed dramatically to the passage 114 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: of marriage equality, and it's still not very easy for 115 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: gay couphols to have kids, right. We still don't make 116 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: it as easy as it should be for all folks 117 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: to have access to adoption or to whatever solution is 118 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: right for them. Um. And so it's just I think 119 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: it's important to keep in mind that whether you're choosing 120 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: or not really choosing to not have children or to 121 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: not pursue marriage. UM. That shouldn't dictate how the workplace 122 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: sees and values your time, your talents, and your life 123 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: outside of work. Absolutely, when I was teaching, I used 124 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: to have this little fantasy. So when you're teaching at college, 125 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: you don't often have the best schedules. And I sort 126 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: of got the vibe that if you were a parent, 127 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: then you were always given the best schedules. You know, 128 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: you were in them. You were there in the mornings 129 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: and you were gone by the afternoon. And as a 130 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: childless heathen, I always got the classes that were like 131 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: meeting at seven to nine, like late night classes. And 132 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: I started to think, if I invented a kid, if 133 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you guys missed that I had 134 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: had a child, like I gotta get home when my 135 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: schedule improved. And so I used to have this fantasy, 136 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: right joyd with the idea of inventing a child just 137 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: so I could see if I would get a better 138 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: teaching schedule. Totally that Fortune article I referenced earlier, The 139 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: author goes on to say that, you know, typically what 140 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: non parents do with their personal time has been viewed 141 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: as not to quote important as parent time. And there's 142 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: also this common assumption she writes that with no kids, 143 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: people must have a lot of free personal time, and 144 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: the work life balance conversation doesn't really apply to them. 145 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: As Melanie Nakin, author of other Hood, Modern Women Finding 146 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: a New Kind of Happiness puts it, quote, it's rare 147 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: that childless workers are thought to have a life outside 148 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: of work. So what's balanced? Some may think, yeah, I 149 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: mean not to keep bringing up this experience, But never 150 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: in my life have I ever felt so acutely aware 151 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: of how true that is. And when I was teaching, 152 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: most of the folks I was teaching with were a 153 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: bit older than me, so a lot of them did 154 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: have husband's wives and kids. And at the time I 155 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: was still sort of figuring out my life. I was 156 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: teaching and also studying at night for the els ATS. 157 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: I had a lot going on, But it was just 158 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: assume that all I was doing with my time was 159 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: going to the bar with my friends and like living 160 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: this you know, frivolous life of Netflix and Cosmopolitans or whatever. 161 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: Not that there's anything wrong with a life like that. 162 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: It actually sounds awesome. But I was grinding, I was hustling, 163 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: I was busy, I was taking night classes. I was teaching, 164 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: I was doing a lot. I just felt like what 165 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: I was doing never got the same recognition because I 166 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: didn't have kids in the mix. Yeah, I almost think 167 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: like it's important to acknowl Let you know what, my 168 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: yoga class at six pm is important to me and 169 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: your dinner at home with the fam is important to you. 170 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: Can we mutually respect that? Can we be okay with 171 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: not expecting single, childless women to pick up the slack 172 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: because we are assumed to not have obligations or important 173 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: things to do with our life outside of work. Absolutely, 174 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: I think it really goes back to this idea of 175 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: what our lives at home are assumed to look like. 176 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: Just like an excuse for paying women less is that 177 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: they have a husband at home who can take care 178 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: of them, and they're just working for extra money to 179 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: buy hats and lipsticks or something. These ideas that we 180 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: put on other people based on their gender for no 181 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: reason that have no bearing on how their lives actually are. 182 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: Absolutely well, I'm really excited to dive deeper into this 183 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: conversation with you, bridget We also have an incredible guest. 184 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: I can't wait to introduce you all too. After a 185 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: quick break and a word from our sponsors, and we 186 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: are back sminthy listeners, and we are talking through role 187 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: conflict and role overload as it pertains to single ladies. 188 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: What does it look like for us childless partner lists, 189 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: you know, marriageless folks to also dare to pursue that 190 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: elusive thing called work life balance. And today to talk 191 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: through this issue with us, we are so lucky to 192 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: be joined by Julia Carpenter, a journalist and writer who 193 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: you might know from her extensive writing on women and 194 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: money for CNN Money, and like Bridget and I, she's 195 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: a single, childless gal who's been writing a lot lately 196 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: about sexual harassment in the workplace. That is a topic 197 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: Bridget you know, is all too near and dear oh, 198 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: we get into it especially on this podcast. And actually 199 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: currently you should know that Julia is collecting stories about 200 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: how conversations are changing around harassment in the workplace and 201 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: how mothers and daughters have found ways to share their 202 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: experiences with one another. So we're really thrilled to have you, 203 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: Julie here, as a fellow woman in the workplace type expert, 204 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: to join us and talking through this uh, this topic today. 205 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here, Thanks for having me. 206 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: So we've been unpacking some of the ways in which 207 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: single women can feel left out of the work life 208 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: balance conversation. How have you seen that come up in 209 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: your work? Yeah, I think I think one of the 210 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: issues is just the phrase work life balance is so loaded. Uh, 211 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: it comes with so many stereotypes as well as misconceptions. 212 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: You know, you can't ever really balance the two, and 213 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: it makes them sound like they're totally separate entities. And 214 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: there's so many different times where one takes press in 215 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: over the other other becomes more important, etcetera, etcetera. But 216 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: the thing I thought was so interesting when I started 217 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: researching this is that it's a phrase that's becoming even 218 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: more important to younger women exactly. That's why we've loved 219 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: breaking this down from the angle of role overload and 220 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: looking at how the different hats that we wear as 221 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: women and as people in our lives and at work 222 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: can sometimes leave us feeling conflicted and pulled in a 223 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: lot of different directions. But I guess the conflict comes 224 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: when you don't have the traditional roles that women are 225 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: expected to have, right. Yeah, that's one of the issues 226 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: when we say work in life balance because work is life. 227 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: Life does come to work. There's no like clear way 228 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: to compartmentalize all of these things, or at least the 229 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: vast majority of people have a hard time to finding 230 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: it that way. And I think that's so right, because 231 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: life and work are one and the same. You don't 232 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: when you go into the office. You don't like leave 233 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: your life at the office door. It shows up. You know, 234 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: you're talking to your mom, you're talking to your kid, whatever, 235 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. I think we push this 236 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: narrative that when you go into your workplace you're leaving 237 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: who you actually are at the door, and that's never 238 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: been the case, and we shouldn't have workplace policies that 239 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: seem to suggest that employees are these robots that don't 240 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: have feelings and lives outside of work, and worries and 241 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: stress or and hobbies and all of that that also 242 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: come into the workplace with them totally. And I think 243 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: this is especially a challenge for younger women who are 244 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: first entering the workforce, so their first job really sets 245 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: their expectations for what work life balance, if we're going 246 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: to call it that even looks like, or what a 247 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: typical workday looks like or what even you know workplace 248 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: culture is. So I think when we talk to younger 249 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: women about this too, and you you hear all these 250 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: pieces of advice like, you know, leave personal life at 251 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: the door, or don't talk about work over cocktails, like 252 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: those aren't really realistic expectations exactly. And also the modern 253 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: workplace feels much more hyper connected and fluid than ever before. 254 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: And I don't know about y'all, but when I graduated, 255 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: I had mastered the domain of how to get an 256 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: A and how to perform with a rubric and how 257 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: to you know, there was some kind of a feedback 258 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: loop at the end of a semester in which people 259 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: were gonna maybe not I never went to class, so 260 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: I I don't. I don't even know what you're getting 261 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: through based great a familiar but this idea of like 262 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: having a zyllables that says, here's how to perform and 263 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: get rewarded. And then you went to the workplace and 264 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: it's this amorphous like array of competing biased perceptions that 265 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: will dictate your rise or lack thereof. And no one 266 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: knows when it's done, when, when when is enough enough? 267 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: And for single people who aren't forced to have hard 268 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: boundaries that they've put down on behalf of a child, 269 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: or on behalf of a caring for a parent, or 270 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: obligations for other people. I think women especially have trouble 271 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: drawing healthy boundaries just because they deserve them. I was saying, 272 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: yeah so much, just because I was connecting so much 273 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: with what you were saying, and also because anecdotally, I've 274 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: heard so much from younger women that there is this 275 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: expectation when you get to the workplace that it will 276 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: it will mirror a clear roadmap that especially in corporate workplaces. 277 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: You know, you have your an into five, you have 278 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: your boss and then her manager, and you look at 279 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: the hierarchy and you have your check ins and your 280 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: monthly reports, like there are all these different goals that 281 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: you expect to check off the list. But there's a 282 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: really good book by uh I'm forgetting the author's name 283 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: at the moment, but I'll send it to you. Guys. 284 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: There's this really good book called Hiding in the Bathroom. 285 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: It's about being an introvert at work also and talking 286 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: about how for introverts work life bounds looks different. Maybe 287 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: you need a work from home day, or you need 288 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: to not go to the company cocktail party or whatever. Like, 289 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: there are all these different ways to set those boundaries 290 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: for you. That it becomes even harder when you're a woman, 291 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: and there's so much pressure to be seen as likable. 292 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: Like one of the things I've been finding in my 293 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: research about women and work is that likability is so 294 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: important for women when it comes to negotiating raises, talking 295 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: about promotions. There's this pressure to be seen as the 296 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: ideal employee or to be liked by everyone, and that 297 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: can really lead to you, you know, working yourself into 298 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: into a nine pm leave time when maybe that's the 299 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: expectation that you put on yourself. Yes, and I I 300 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: think we've been socialized as girls and women to perfect 301 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: perform and please everyone else around us, and praising everyone 302 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: else around you is actually not what's going to yield 303 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: that executive presence impression. It's not going to yield like, oh, 304 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: I think she's a boss, or I think she can 305 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: leave this project. Sometimes being assertive and this is me 306 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: getting on my bossed up soapbox because this is what 307 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: I do, but it really is like being assertive means 308 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: protecting boundaries with empathy but also standing up for yourself 309 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: and that is part of being a leader. But as 310 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: women were not told that having boundaries is okay. If 311 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: you try to boundaries, people guilt you. People make it 312 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: seem like you're a you know, not a nice person. 313 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: But actually it just shows the way that we've been 314 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: kind of trained and socialized to think about everybody else's 315 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: concerns over our own, especially as single women. Well, and 316 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: there are also negative consequences to setting boundaries, like we 317 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: can't ignore that, you know, there are perceptions of women 318 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: in the workforce that say, you know, women who ask 319 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: for more time off or ask for more flexible work 320 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: hours are penalized. There was one study particularly that was 321 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 1: looking at leave time that again I think is so 322 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: important because it's something younger women especially struggle with so much. 323 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: You know, when it's okay to leave the office, When 324 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: is okay to leave? And I look like I've worked 325 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: hard enough for you know, I've proven my worth at 326 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: being able to leave at five thirty instead of at seven. 327 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: But there was one study that showed that even when 328 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: women left earlier in the day as opposed to men 329 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: leaving earlier in the day, they were seen as not 330 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: working as hard as the men. Yeah, that's it's it's 331 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: so depressing, but it's not surprising, Like it just shows 332 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: that these fears that we have are somewhat grunted in 333 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: a reality. Um. One of the things I did want 334 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: to mention, just because I think it's so salient to 335 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: our conversation, is that I totally agree with you Emily, 336 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: like talking about this more, being more aware of it 337 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: is key to even being able to recognize what works 338 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: for you and what makes you a better employee. And 339 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of conversations women can have with their 340 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: bosses or their managers to say, flexible work hours work 341 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: for me in X, y Z ways, I'm more productive 342 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: in these ways, you know, look at my results on 343 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: this way. But one of the things I thought was 344 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: so interesting in that same study I mentioned that said, uh, 345 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: younger women are valuing work life balance more and more 346 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: and talking about it more and more, is that when 347 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: women were asked does does your work life significantly interfere 348 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: with your personal life? It went down for women the 349 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: more they progressed in their careers, So women at the 350 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: start of their careers were actually more likely to say, yes, 351 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: my work life definitely interferes with my personal life than 352 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: women who are already established in their careers, which is 353 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: kind of contrary to what we were talking about. You know, 354 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: people see single women, young women, women just starting out 355 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: on their jobs as perfectly balancing those two things because 356 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: they don't have a partner at home or they don't 357 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: have a family at home. But it's actually the opposite, Like, 358 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: as women become more established in their careers, they're better 359 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: able to define those boundaries, are better able to set 360 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: up those conversations about what works for them. Let's talk 361 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: about that, because there's actually a case to be made, 362 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: um that a couple of different articles that we've uncovered 363 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: throughout this research have been making that single women workers 364 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: have it harder. You know, there's a quote here in 365 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal that says, without a partner to help, 366 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: singles must get the laundry done, get to the gym, 367 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: by groceries, and get to the job. And so as 368 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: more young adults are delaying marriage into their thirties like 369 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: all of us here, and not to predict when any 370 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: of that's happening, um, but career demands are intensifying. Many 371 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: increasingly feel overloaded and set high expectations for themselves. I 372 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: have to admit when I was reading this, Oh, poor 373 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: single people, p like we have it so tough, I 374 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: was kind of laughing out loud a little bit because 375 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: I don't think being single and have to make your 376 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: own rama noodles is harder than being a parent. Okay, 377 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: So I actually read that and was like, oh, that's 378 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: my life, right. I mean, I get it. I'm sure 379 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,479 Speaker 1: a lot of parents out there saying, bridget come on, like, 380 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: your single life is not the same as my life 381 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: trying to keep a tiny human alive. All. I get 382 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: that that's fair, But think about this, right, most of 383 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: my life, I'm a single woman. For most of my life, 384 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: I've been pretty much on my own right. I'm also 385 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: a queer woman, and so I think that we have 386 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: an entire different understanding of partnerships and marriage and being 387 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, booed up for life and all of that. 388 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 1: And I read that and that really resonated with me 389 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: because listen, when the cable person comes from Comcast, I'm 390 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: the one who has to be there to let them in, 391 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: right when the landlord has to fix something in the apartment. 392 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: I have to be there when my apartment is a mess, 393 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: and I'm on my own. I can't just count on 394 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: the fact that someone is going to say, oh, she's 395 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: having a rough time, let me clean for her. All 396 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: of that stuff. In my life, I have outsourced the 397 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: out of between seamless, Postmates, handy Book to have my 398 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: apartment clean. I'm actually paying. I mean, part of it 399 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: is like I have the privilege to be able to 400 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: do these things, but my life only makes sense when 401 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: I'm on my own because I have enough capital to 402 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: be able to outsource a lot of things that I 403 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: think boot up. People who have husbands or wives or 404 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: spouses can sort of sort out themselves domestically. That makes sense, Yeah, 405 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: it does. I'm curious to hear what you think, Julia, 406 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: where do you want? Yeah? No, I'm so torn because 407 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: on the one hand, I've never had a screaming baby 408 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: at home, and I can't imagine what it's like to 409 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: have an entire human life dependent on you outside of 410 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: your work life. But on the other hand, it's undeniable 411 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: that having a partner, being able to rely on a 412 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: partner for those things, and being able to talk about 413 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: your family with your job makes it feel easier to 414 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: take that time, especially when we see single women talking 415 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: to their bosses or their managers about what they need, 416 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, whether it be flex will work hours, more 417 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: paid time off, like all of these things are. They 418 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: make a less convincing argument because we've been socialized to 419 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: think that work life balance means more time for your family. 420 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: If you don't have a family, you don't need more time, 421 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: and that I agree with completely. I think from a 422 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: perception standpoint, it's a much easier case to draw boundaries 423 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: when you can say this is, you know, for my kids, 424 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: or this is for my maybe aging parent. I don't know. 425 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: I think Liz O'Donnell really um on that episode really 426 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: made me think twice about whether our society even feels 427 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: like that's a valid reason to take time off. But 428 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think society is down with women 429 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: taking care of themselves. No, definitely, definitely not. Um. A 430 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: side note, one of the reasons I'm really excited to 431 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: one day have a kid is to have a ready 432 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: made excuse to get out of everything, because if you're like, oh, 433 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: my kid's got a fang, it's like everyone's like, uply, 434 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: we get it, we get it right, like, particularly for men, 435 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: I think, um and so the idea of being able 436 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: to say, oh, I can't come to your boring play 437 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: because my kid has a thing and hadn't be accepted. 438 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward that. I just feel like the trade 439 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: offs that women with kids have to contend with are 440 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: in some ways harder because the perception of any mother 441 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: at work is that she's distracted and less deducuating and 442 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: put on the mommy track. So I feel like it 443 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: did it actually doesn't serve us to say, like, whose 444 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: work life balance is more valid? You know. I think 445 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: if we can actually have this conversation around guess what 446 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: we all deserve life outside of work, we all will 447 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: be better and more efficient. If we can have systems 448 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: and structures that make flexibility and autonomy and and leave 449 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: accessible and practically usable by all workers, then it doesn't 450 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: become an anomaly when a parent has to use their 451 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: time off. It doesn't become a mommy thing. It's funny 452 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: because I was researching the story not too long ago 453 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: about the benefits women most want in a workplace. So 454 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: I was looking at benefits and perks especially, and because 455 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: so many perks have this like glitzia lore, you know, 456 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,239 Speaker 1: like sexy Silicon Valley workplaces have flying nanny's or you know, 457 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: free cafeterias or like all extensive side everything flying nannying. No, 458 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: it's a real it's a real phenomenon where they will 459 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: have nanny's on call and they're called flying nanny's. I know, 460 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: is this like Mary Poppins branded, because I like, you 461 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: see the app already was just umbrella and descending across 462 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: your iPhones. Yeah, it's like Mary Poppins. No, literally, yes, 463 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: I'm sure that that illusion was at the forefront of 464 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: their minds. Um, but I was. But I was looking 465 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: into this, and I was expecting those to be really 466 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: highly rated, and it's kind of not surprising to see 467 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: that what women rated most highly instead was number one 468 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: respect from their colleagues, which is like such low hanging fruit, 469 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: but is the thing they most highly prized Number two 470 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: pay parity. You know, they really just want to be 471 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: paid the same as their milk colleagues. But then flexibility 472 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: kept coming up again and again, like women would rather 473 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: have more paid time off and more flexible work hours 474 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: than any of these other perks or benefits we think 475 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: are so important. I think that's such a good point, 476 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: and it's really hilarious sardonic, sarcastic article that Cassie Murdoch 477 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: wrote for Jezebel titled work life balance Isn't just for 478 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: Mom's all the single ladies wanted to and it. She writes, 479 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: I know this is very difficult to understand, but according 480 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: to the Wall Street Journal, even people without children enjoy 481 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: time away from work. Yeah, it's weird, right. They get 482 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: sick of slaving away for endless hours at work to 483 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: the exclusion of all social activities. They don't even have 484 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: enough time to get their dishes done or cook themselves 485 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: proper meals. In the words of Anne Marie Bowler, a 486 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: lawyer who quit a draining job at a big law 487 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: firm and started her own firm with a friend, quote, 488 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to have a life, a full life, which 489 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: just meant not always working. Bowler is thirty six and single, 490 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: and frankly, it sounds like she's still working in an 491 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: awful it's just on her own terms, which makes a difference. 492 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: That your own terms part. I think is so important. Like, 493 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: as more women talk about work life balance too, I 494 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: think what we're really wanting to talk about is control. 495 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: Because I've already talked about how I think that phrase 496 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: is so problematic on so many levels. Blah blah blah. 497 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: But what we what we really want is control. Like 498 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: when we're saying work life balance, we want work life balance, 499 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: we want work life fit, we want work life integration. 500 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: We really just want to have a little bit more 501 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: of a hold on how these two things dominate our lives. 502 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: I love how you use control to frame that, because 503 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: in a lot of these conversations it sounds like flexible 504 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: work hours and all of that. It's like a gift 505 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: that your employer is giving you rather than this you know, 506 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: established cultural norm that makes everything better in the workplace, right, yeah, right, 507 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, it's about control. I don't want 508 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: to have to feel like I have to grovel to 509 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: my boss to get flexible time, to take care of 510 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: the stuff I need to in my life, just to 511 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: be just to show up as a happy, functional employee. 512 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: And I think framing it as oh, you have to 513 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: go to your boss and ask for this thing, as 514 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: opposed to saying no. You should be able to take 515 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: control over both your personal life and your work life, 516 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: and that should just be the norm of how you 517 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: show up as employees. It's almost as though y'all predicted 518 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: the findings in a recent Mackenzie and Company study of 519 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: sixty companies that they did for The Wall Street Journal, 520 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: And what was most interesting is that amongst women who 521 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: were planning to leave their companies in the next few years, 522 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: they found really similar reasons cited by both mothers and 523 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: non mothers, and it was a desire to gain more 524 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: control over their personal schedules and needs. So I think 525 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: you hit the nail on the head. Let's take a 526 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: quick break, and when we come back, we're going to 527 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: dive into how this actually plays out at organizations across 528 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: the country and what we can do to make sure 529 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: that single women aren't left out of this conversation moving forward. 530 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors, 531 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: and we are back, and we are having way too 532 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: much fun with Julia Carpenter here, a writer you might 533 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: know from her excellent pieces for CNN Money breaking down 534 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: all things women, work and finance. And so we wanted 535 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: to continue this conversation about do single women have it tough? 536 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: Like do single women really struggle with work life balance 537 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: or work life integration or fit or all the other 538 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,239 Speaker 1: better ways to talk about it? Um as we've been 539 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: really framing this around role conflict and roll overload, and 540 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: we were just getting into a little debate on the 541 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: break here about what we think our mother listeners, the 542 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: folks who are listening to this podcast with a baby 543 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: in our arms right now, might think about a bunch 544 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: of single, childless women whining about not having a baby 545 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: card to play to flake on our obligation. Hey, that's 546 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: my personal thing. Listen, everyone who knows me knows them 547 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: an notorious flake on social plans. All I'm saying is 548 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: that when I say I'm not going to your party 549 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: because I'm under a blanket watching Netflix, all I get 550 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: is shady text. If I said I'm not going to 551 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: your party because I have a child, I'm not saying 552 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: going to help me up my flaking and saying what 553 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: do you think about that, Julia? No, I mean I 554 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: I was just thinking while we were talking about that earlier, 555 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: like I'm going to listen to this when I am 556 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: a mom and you know, kind of kind of shake 557 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: my head, like I can see my mom shaking her 558 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: head at me all the time, where she's just like, 559 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: you don't know, get ready, like the world is coming, 560 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: but you know, it was telling that research who referenced 561 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: earlier Julia that over the course of women's careers, the 562 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: sense of autonomy does seem to increase. And I've got 563 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: two series. I want to pose it for that and 564 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: hear what y'all think. One I actually heard this message 565 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: from Joanna Coles, the former editor in chief of Glamour magazine. 566 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: UM say one time that as your career grows, as 567 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: you or power grows, your power over your own work 568 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: life increases. And so we shouldn't tell women to not 569 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: pursue ambitious career paths because it means you'll be overwhelmed. 570 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: We should say, pursue an ambitious career path because you'll 571 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: have power over how you work. So that's that's one theory. 572 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, do you What do y'all think of that? 573 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: I don't know about that. I like the idea in theory, 574 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: I guess I don't feel like we should necessarily be 575 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: telling women to look for any one kind of career 576 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: if it's not what they want, right, Like, not every 577 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: woman wants in a sort of high octane career path. 578 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: And I think that if we tell women that one 579 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: pathway to having more control over your work and your life, 580 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: and how they intersect is by going out there and 581 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: striving for a high octane career that might not do everybody. 582 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: So I think it's probably true, but I just want 583 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: to posit that it's true for something. Maybe it's just 584 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: one tool in the toolbox of how we reach something 585 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: that frankly should be a norm for all of us. 586 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be better if it were an expected norm? 587 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: Like my mom's a labor and delivery nurse who works 588 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: shift work, right, twelve hour shifts at the time at 589 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: a hospital, and she has very little control over when 590 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: she works. She has very little control over when she 591 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: gets vacation. And so there's definitely a class component to this, 592 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: which is maybe retail workers should have the same right 593 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: to autonomy over their schedule as podcasters, you know what 594 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: I mean? Like, if we all could feel like that 595 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: was an expected norm, then we wouldn't have to tell 596 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: women pursue the most powerful career path possible. Well. Absolutely. 597 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: That takes me back to a Netflix announced this really 598 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: great family leave policy for their employees, and everybody was like, great, 599 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: that's awesome, and I was one of them, but then 600 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: somebody was like, wait, this is include people who aren't 601 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: like your warehouse workers, people who aren't your executives. And 602 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: I think it can be very tempting, because you know, 603 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,719 Speaker 1: we all have blind spots. I have them, you have them, 604 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: we all have them. It can be very tempting to 605 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: leave all different kinds of employees, from high level executives 606 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: down to low age workers, to leave them, to leave 607 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: certain people out of a conversation. The other thing I 608 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: think is really important here too, and you mentioned it earlier, Emily, 609 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: is how even when you get to the upper echelons 610 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: of your industry, when you have all of that control, 611 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: it's you. You really have to struggle to get there. 612 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: So we talked about how, you know, in so many 613 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: different professions, women are still stereotyped as busy moms. They're 614 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: seeing they're passed over for promotions, They're seen as uh, 615 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, not as not as committed as male workers. 616 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: They're not as committed as people who don't have families. 617 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: There's kind of that hanging question, the air of you know, well, 618 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: what if she gets pregnant, what if she does this? 619 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: Sheryl Sandberg talked about this infamously, so that you kind 620 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: of have to play a lot of games to get 621 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: to those uh, those upper echelons sometimes to get the control. 622 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: Like it's it's a weirdly like a it's not a 623 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: self fulfilling prophecy. What am I trying to say? It's 624 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,239 Speaker 1: like you have to not have boundaries to be able 625 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: to set boundary or catch twenty two is exactly what 626 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: I'm looking for. Yeah, so it can play in multiple ways. 627 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: I think t LDR like everything that we're saying is 628 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: that we just kind of need to eliminate the stigma 629 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: from talking about this stuff that you know, we need 630 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: to eliminate the idea that always volunteering to work extra shifts, 631 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: always pretending like you don't have a personal life, isn't sustainable. Yeah. 632 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: And I think the other theory behind why this might 633 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: be easier as you go on in your career is 634 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: because you start to recognize that nobody's going to set 635 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: those boundaries but you. Yeah. So the the beginning, I 636 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: think right entered the workforce, I was sort of waiting 637 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: for permission to go home. I was sort of waiting 638 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: for the end of a semester that was never going 639 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: to arrive. And it made me realize that, oh, if 640 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: I want to sleep eight arrows the night. If I 641 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: want lunch, I'm the one who has to make that happen. 642 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: Like nobody's going to give me the you've done enough 643 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: for the day kid, you know, slap on the back 644 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: and say, you know, keep keep truck and champ take it, 645 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,439 Speaker 1: take a load off. I would even go further and say, 646 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 1: if you're a smucky company, it's in your best interests 647 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: to have your employees feel that way and then never 648 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: give them that perdition. If your employees feel like I 649 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: have to ask when it's okay to go home, I 650 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: have to ask when I can go to lunch, I 651 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: have to ask when I can go to the bathroom, 652 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,919 Speaker 1: all of that. If you're a schmucky company who doesn't 653 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: give a crap about your employees, it's in your best 654 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: interest to have them feel that way and have them 655 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: feel really trapped and like with a complete lack of 656 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: control over their own day. It's not in their best 657 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: interests when it comes to employee retention though, And that's 658 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: the other piece of this that I think is super important. 659 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: You know, when I was talking earlier about benefits that 660 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: women must look for in workplaces, that means that women 661 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: will leave workplaces that don't offer those benefits. And again 662 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: we are talking about women who have the privilege of 663 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: being able to leave their jobs or being able to 664 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: change their workplaces. But that's also really important that to 665 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: retain employee is like to retain top talent. This is 666 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: what employees are expecting and looking for, and this is 667 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: what they'll value. Do you think the same is true 668 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: for younger employees, not just women? Totally? Totally. I think 669 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,959 Speaker 1: you know that same study I referenced earlier talking about 670 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 1: how women were remarking on the ways that their personal 671 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: lives and their work lives integrate, zooming out from that 672 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: of millennial survey, so that work life balance is something 673 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,479 Speaker 1: that matters to them. That's I mean, that's just three 674 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: percent HIV Andrew, Yeah, that's crazy. And I mean, and 675 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: men report millennial men especially report desiring more work life 676 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: balance and men of prior generations. It's it's interesting. And 677 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: then we see companies like Amazon notoriously go in the 678 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: opposite direction on their company culture and Yahoo. You remember 679 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: back in when Marissa Mayer took the helm of Yahoo 680 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,879 Speaker 1: and in doing so, eliminated the work from home policies 681 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: that they had extending flexible work schedules. UM. That ended 682 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: up having a bunch of working moms up in arms. 683 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just a blow dealt to working moms. 684 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: That's the thing. We have to acknowledge that this is 685 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: not good for working dad's. It's not good for working 686 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,240 Speaker 1: people who just want to not work all the time. Again, 687 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: I would even go further and say it's it's not 688 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: good for anybody. It's not good for the development of 689 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: the kids that people who are parents have. It's not 690 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: it's not healthy for anybody in the mix exactly. Jenna 691 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: McGregor covered this story for The Washington Post, and in 692 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: it she points out that the whole work life balance 693 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 1: debate has become so inextricably linked to the mommy track 694 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: debates and the glass ceilings around parental policies. UM. And 695 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: even though we've replaced the term work family with work 696 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: life in practice, family obligations still tend to trump everything else. 697 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: Callie William's youth who as an advisor that she cites 698 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: in the story, who consults companies on work life balance issues, 699 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: tells the story of a young, single employee with no 700 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: children who asked his company if he could come in 701 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: late on Thursdays so that he could fit in time 702 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: for training for a marathon. So this is a childless dude. Okay, 703 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: this is not even like a woman who's making this request. 704 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: And oh yeah, his manager reportedly told him and I'd 705 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: like to ride in a hot air balloon every Monday. 706 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: That sarcasm was so disturbing to him he threatened to quit. 707 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: And it's just goes to show that that flexible work 708 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: policy is not intended to really apply to single people. 709 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: But that's the thing. I think it's easy to joke about, 710 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, oh I have to get to my yoga 711 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: class or my softball game or whatever, But it does 712 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: matter if you're single, married, whatever, if you have the 713 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: kids you don't. The things that are important to you 714 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: in your life are the things that are important to 715 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: you in your life, and we should be respecting that. 716 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: If you if your thing is training for a marathon, 717 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: that should be respected as something that you need to 718 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 1: be flexible around. If that's what you need to show 719 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: up as your best self in the job, if it's 720 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: gonna be you kicking ask this marathon, I think it's 721 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,959 Speaker 1: in your employer's best interest to make sure that's something 722 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: that you have time for the same way that you 723 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: would for childcare. I don't know. I mean, I think 724 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: the challenge you mentioned earlier, Julia is that perception is 725 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: still really powerful, and that advocating for that flexibility, while 726 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: it should be cool, is not seen as cool all 727 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: the time. And so I always advise the women I 728 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: work with to use the term appointment pretty liberally. I 729 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: have an appointment. I have an appointment. I have to 730 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: be somewhere. I have an appointment. Do you need anything 731 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: from me before I leave? Do you need anything urgent? 732 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: Am I not getting you something? Right? Framing it as 733 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 1: what do you need for me to feel like you've 734 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: gotten everything you need right now? Because I've got an appointment. 735 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: In fact, I've got a recurring appointment every Thursday morning. 736 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: Is that going to be an issue? And then I 737 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: get my marathon running in? You know what I mean? Like, 738 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: I think sharing what you need to be sustainable is 739 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: a luxury not many of us have when it comes 740 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: to managing perception in the workplace. I completely agree, Julia. 741 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: What do you think I was just about to ask Emily, 742 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: where did you learn that? I think I've never heard 743 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: that before about the power of the word appointment. Oh, 744 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: that's an Emily Ay's original. I've actually I've noticed I've 745 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: seen that show up a lot. Like um, when I 746 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: used to work at MSNBC, my boss would always say, 747 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 1: have an appointment, and I'd be like, what is this appointment? 748 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: And she'd be like, sometimes I'm getting my nails done, Like, 749 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: you don't know my business. Yeah, I don't know. I 750 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: just I've tested it myself and uh, and my work 751 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: follows that. I don't know. I've probably absorbed it from somebody. 752 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: But that's something we should write more about, apparently. Yeah. 753 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: I find that so interesting because there is this, uh, 754 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: this split in how we we set up time away 755 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: from work. Like I had a former colleague once tell 756 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,479 Speaker 1: me specifically related to Nail's bridget She was I said 757 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: something about there was like this manicured deal. I wanted 758 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: to take advantage of her something I can't remember, and 759 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: it was but it was a weird time, like I 760 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: couldn't leave work on time. And what she said was 761 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 1: and I thought this was so uh, such a good 762 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,359 Speaker 1: way to put it. She said, well, you never eat 763 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: lunch away from your desk And I said yeah, And 764 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: she said this is equivalent to you eating lunch away 765 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: from your desk, and I thought, oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah, 766 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,399 Speaker 1: So it really is all about reframing that perception and saying, yeah, 767 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: I think of it this way. This is just me 768 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: taking a normal lunch break, even if I do come 769 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: back with a fresh manicure, a fresh many study. Right. 770 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: Screen breaks. I'm really big about screen breaks, and the 771 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: way I think about them all the time is that 772 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: I actually usually don't eat lunch away from my desk 773 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: because I think that noon is just a time when 774 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: I have a lot of stuff going on. But I 775 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: take screen breaks, and those I mean it's the same 776 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: as somebody taking an hour lunch break or whatever. Like 777 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: you take little screen breaks out the day, you go 778 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: out for coffee. You add all all of these other things, 779 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: and they're equivalent to some of the other more instituted 780 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 1: time breaks we have scheduled into a typical work day. Anyway, Julia, 781 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,399 Speaker 1: can I give you a glimpse into where my head 782 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: is at. I misheard you. I thought you said scream 783 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: breaks like a break during the work day to scream. 784 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, screen break, Yeah, And it was 785 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 1: like a screen break that makes a lot more sense. 786 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: But screen break is gonna be good too in a 787 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: certain workplaces. You know, I wrote a whole thing about crying. 788 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: Maybe on that straight to think about screaming. It's a 789 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: real thing. Maybe that's the next thing there's I was 790 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: just reading some stress research, this concept of like closing 791 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: the loop on a stress experience needs some sort of 792 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: expulsion of the stress. And it was actually in um 793 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: that Become as You Are book she was talking about 794 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: orgasms about orgasms, but it also didn't research stress research. Well, 795 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: it was she was citing stress research on her book 796 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: about orgasms, but she was comparing screaming out loud to 797 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:38,359 Speaker 1: the same kind of release that would come with an orgasm. 798 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: She was literally like grab a pillow, or like do 799 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,760 Speaker 1: this in a way that you're not going to alarm anybody. 800 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 1: And if you're having a really stressful day, do twenty 801 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: push ups or you know, jumping jacks, or scream the 802 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: hell out of your pillow. You know what I mean, 803 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: Just scream bloody murder into your pillow. So I think 804 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: screen breaks and screen breaks are stress research approup. So 805 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,919 Speaker 1: to bring this all back to single women and roll 806 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: overload rapid fire round for all of us here. What 807 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: do you think that we as individuals or as organizations 808 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: can do to make personal sustainability accessible to all of us, 809 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: single folks included. So I think that the biggest opportunity 810 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: here is with managers and bosses when they're thinking about 811 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: retaining talent. The research is really clear when it shows 812 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: that young people, young women especially really value flexibility. So 813 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: thinking about how you can build that into your work processes. 814 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,919 Speaker 1: I would go on to say cultural shift. No, wow, 815 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: Mine was like maybe a boss can think one time, 816 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: And Bridget was like that you could change complete overthrow 817 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: of the econonic system and the only thing that will 818 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: work burned into the ground, burn into the ground, and money, 819 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 1: ban men, etcetera. No, I think I think it's cultural shift. 820 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: I think it's thinking of it as the days that 821 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: you come in and say I have an appointment I 822 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: need to leave on Thursday, thinking about that as a 823 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: tiny little radical win that's going to help shift culture, 824 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: and understand that can make it easier for someone else 825 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: to do the same thing, and so really owning the 826 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: role that we all play in this massive culture shift 827 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: project of making it okay to show up as your 828 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: best self and to do what you need to do 829 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: to make that happen. Yes, And I would close it 830 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: out by saying, as someone who advocates for personally taking 831 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: charge of your own sustainability, I'm tempted to say, you know, 832 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: give yourself permission to ask for what you need and 833 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: go for it. But I'm actually gonna go in in a 834 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: totally different direction and say we need systematic policy change. 835 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: And that is why the final installment in the Role 836 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: Overload series is going to be all about what a 837 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: national crisis role overload actually is and what we as 838 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: a country, what we as a government can do to 839 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: level the playing field for all workers so that it 840 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: doesn't become a mommy war versus a single person war 841 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: all over again, and so that we all can achieve 842 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: our full potential personally and professionally. So our final installment 843 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: of the Role Overload series, the next episode you'll hear 844 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 1: on this is going to be with author and think 845 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 1: tank policy Wank bridget Shalty all about how we as 846 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,839 Speaker 1: a country can be better on this. I really can't 847 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: wait for you all to hear that final installment. Juliet, 848 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Where can 849 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: folks find out more about all the cool things are 850 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: up to thank you for having me. I'm on Twitter 851 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,359 Speaker 1: at Julia C. Carpenter and I think I'm actually at 852 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: Julius C. Carpenter on like everything good, branding awesome, And 853 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit more about the 854 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,760 Speaker 1: stories you're collecting right now, because I know our listeners 855 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: are gonna want to get in on that. Yeah. The 856 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: thing that's been coming to mind again and again is 857 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,359 Speaker 1: I read all of these stories to come out about 858 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and the moment we're in everything after me too, 859 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: and where we're going from here. I keep thinking about 860 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: how the way we're talking about this is changing. Just 861 00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: the conversations we're having with our friends and our coworkers 862 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 1: are so different now than they were, you know, even 863 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: ten years ago or going back, you know, even after 864 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: Anita Hill, like another seminal moment in this discussion. So 865 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: I've been asking people to share those with me. I'll 866 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: report on them in future stories or follow up for 867 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: further coverage. I am in the process of following up 868 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: on a story I wrote where I talked to my 869 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: mom about her own experience of sexual harassment, which, again 870 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: I just think is another example of how these conversations 871 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: have changed. You know, when my mom was my age, 872 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: she didn't even know what the word sexual harassment was. 873 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: She had no way to talk about it. She didn't 874 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: know how to report an instance of it, she didn't 875 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: know how to identify it. She just thought that's how 876 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: the workplace was. But the other side of this, I 877 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: think is so interesting is looking at moms who are 878 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: having these conversations with their daughters now, and daughters who 879 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: are having these conversations with their mom's, you know, saying mom, 880 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: this happened to me, and not asking what I should do, 881 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: but saying this happened to me. I want you to know, Well, Julia, 882 00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. It's been a blab 883 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,279 Speaker 1: Thank you, guys, can't wait to listen. Awesome. It's good 884 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: to know that we're not the only single, childless women 885 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: who want a life outside of work and sminty listeners. 886 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,760 Speaker 1: Those with or without romantic partners, those with or without children. 887 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: We want to hear from you, that's right. We want 888 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: to hear from all the single ladies, all the single ladies, 889 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,239 Speaker 1: all the single ladies. We want to hear from you, 890 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: So make sure to continue this conversation with us on 891 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,959 Speaker 1: Twitter at mom's Stuff podcast. Show us what work life 892 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: balance means to you or what roll overload means to 893 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,919 Speaker 1: you as a single person on Instagram at stuff mom 894 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: Never Told You, and, as always, send us your emails 895 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.