1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Velvet Edge podcast. I am so excited about my guest today, 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Tara More. Tara is the author of the incredible book 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: Playing Big, and the title of Playing Big describes it 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: as practical wisdom for women who want to speak up, 6 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: create and lead. This doesn't always mean becoming your company's 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: next CEO. It solely means chasing your true hearts, desires, 8 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: and truths and no longer settling for talking yourself out 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: of them and looking the other way. I personally found 10 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: Tara from an article she wrote for goop dot com 11 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: on the topic of why women criticize other women so much. 12 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: A huge hint is that the answer involves each of 13 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: our own unrealized dreams and truths. Tara says, to the 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: extent that women are each not fully empowered ourselves, that 15 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: we are still denying our own dreams or treating ourselves harshly. 16 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: We will criticize, attack, and try to sabotage other women 17 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: because it rattles us to see in them what we 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: have not permitted in ourselves. I can't wait for you 19 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: all to hear this one. I hope that it resonates 20 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: with each of you the way that it did with me. 21 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Okay, so I want to start by 22 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: getting a better understanding of what a truly empowered woman is. 23 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: I think I was reading this and playing big, but 24 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: you mentioned a mentor of yours saying that American women 25 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: are liberated, not empowered. What's the difference. I love that 26 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: you're starting with. Yeah, yeah, Well, I when I had 27 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: first started coaching women, I was so shocked by the 28 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: level of self doubt and self criticism um that I 29 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: was hearing from all of us. And of course I 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: could relate to it too. I had all those same 31 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: thoughts in my head. I just didn't know that everyone 32 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: else did. And I went to talk to a long 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: time mentor of mine as my childhood dance teachers. She 34 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: was kind of in her mid seventies at the time, 35 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: and she's a great artist, and I would say, you 36 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: know someone who's lived to our life as an original 37 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: and an artist and with a lot of trust in herself. 38 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: And I was just describing all that self doubt and 39 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: holding back, and she just shrugged and looked at me 40 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: and said, well, of course, Tara, that's because American women 41 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: are liberated, but not empowered. And I thought, well, that 42 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: summed up what I've been trying trying to particulate and 43 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: get it for years. And what I took that to 44 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: mean is that, you know, we have the blessing of 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: so many external freedoms. Now we can vote, we can 46 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: open a bank account, we can own financial property, you know, 47 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: we can run a business, we can we can do 48 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: so many things that for most of history women didn't 49 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: have access to. And so that's a certain kind of liberation. 50 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: But to take advantage of that fully, to live into 51 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: that fully, we need the inner side. We need the empowerment. 52 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: We need to feel worthy to do those things. We 53 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: need to give ourselves permission to do those things. We 54 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: need that self trust. And that's where I think there's 55 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: still work to do. There's still work to do on 56 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: the external front, to no question. But where my focus 57 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: has been is that, um, how do we change the legacy, 58 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: the beliefs and the self perceptions that the culture has 59 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: left us with so we can really pursue our dreams, 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: feel free in in our bodies and in our voices, um, 61 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: and and have that self trust? Yeah, almost here it 62 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: when I was when I've initially heard you say that, 63 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: and then again when you just kind of explained it, 64 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: it's almost to me like we have this newfound freedom 65 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: that maybe we didn't always have, but we're not fully 66 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: internalizing it yet. Yes, exactly, exactly soutiful way of saying it. 67 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: Do you recognize many truly empowered women in your life? 68 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. You know, I think we're all on the journey, 69 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: and we all have places where we're getting freer and 70 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: more empowered, and then we all have the places where 71 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: we're not right. So that could look like, you know, 72 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: I really give myself a lot of permission to go 73 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: for my business goals, and I have maybe someone that 74 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: I have no trouble charging for my work anymore. But 75 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: every night when I look in the mirror, I'm completely 76 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: beating myself up about my body, and I still am 77 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: caring that idea that I need to look like the 78 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: airbrushed person you know in the ad. So I think 79 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: we're all um in our process of finding those places 80 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: that still need you know, the love and the light 81 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: and the healing um. And that's more how I think 82 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: about it versus like looking for someone who has it 83 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: versus someone who doesn't. Yeah, that now that you explain that, 84 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: I love the a area of that because in my 85 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: head I was like, you're either empowered or you're not, 86 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: which is a very black and white type of way 87 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: to think about it. But maybe it's like a work 88 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: in progress type thing. Absolutely, yeah, And I think I 89 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: think that's true around women's empowerment in particular, but I 90 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: also think that's true for human beings, like we never 91 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: arrive completely at our self actualization or are authentic self. 92 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: We're always that's like the north star, and it tells 93 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: us which direction to move in, you know, with every decision. 94 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: But but we're never going to get there completely. And 95 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: that's part of I think what it means to be human, right, 96 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: and we're never going to get there every day. That's 97 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: what I already to get mistaken. Is like if I 98 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: if I do something really well one day, or I'm 99 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: feeling very in my body, empowered and free all of that, 100 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: then that means that it's there forever and it's not always. 101 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: It's kind of like it can come and go as well. 102 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: So true. Thank you for reminding me, because I forget 103 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: that too. It's kind of like a joke. I kind 104 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: of joke with my friends, like everyone were like, so 105 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: I have my new morning routine. I've been doing it 106 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: for three days and was definitely my new morning routine 107 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: for the rest of my life. I'll fall into that, right, 108 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: I've figured it out. I've gotten fixed all of those 109 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: things I tell myself always whenever I talk about empowerment, 110 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: especially with women, I think of that quote empowered women, 111 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: empower women. You know, that's like the famous quote that 112 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: everyone says, which is such a nice thought, right, Like, 113 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: I love that idea. When I really sat down to 114 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: think about it, though, amongst this conversation, I was thinking 115 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: to myself, are we really doing that? Though? Yeah, well, 116 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: I think that's an area where there's still a lot 117 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: of pain for women. And you know, when when I 118 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: went on the book tour for Playing Big, one of 119 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: the things that really struck me was every audience I 120 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: talked to, someone would stand up and raise their hand 121 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: with a question that was something like, yeah, but why 122 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: is the worst meanest boss I ever had in my 123 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: life a woman? Or but why are so many women 124 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: backstabbing of each other? And I thought that was so 125 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: fascinating because the book, the focus of the Plain Big 126 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: Book is very much on your relationship with yourself and 127 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: your what you can do to play bigger. And it 128 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: was almost like women were saying, yeah, I hear all that, 129 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: but as long as we're you're talking about women, can 130 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: we talk about this other piece? Because the pain of 131 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: those experiences of feeling unsupported by a female boss or 132 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: betrayed by a female mencher was so huge for people. Um, 133 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: and I believe that will never allow in another woman 134 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: what we haven't allowed in ourselves. Okay, tell me way 135 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: more about that. So if I'm not let's say, I'm 136 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 1: not giving my self permission to speak in a really 137 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: direct way, I'm still in that place of, oh, everything 138 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: I do has to be sugarcoated. And now my friend 139 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: comes to me and she speaks in a really direct way, 140 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: or I even just observe her speaking in a really 141 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: direct way to another woman. But I've pleased that part 142 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: of myself. I've censored that part of my voice. No, no, 143 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, you don't. You don't have permission to 144 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: do that. That's what I've said to myself. So I'm 145 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: now going to find it excruciatingly painful and uncomfortable to 146 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: watch her doing that, because it makes that part of 147 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: me say, uh, you know, if I've clamped that down 148 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: in myself, I'm going to clamp that down in you too, 149 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: And so I might try and clamp it down in 150 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: her by saying, you know, that's bitchy, or um, who 151 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: do you think you are? Or go gossip about her 152 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: to someone else, or just drift apart from her in 153 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: our relationship UM. Or another example might be you know, 154 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: if I'm feeling really ashamed about my body and then 155 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: I have a friend who's getting really comfortable with her body, 156 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: that's going to be hard for me to be around. UM. 157 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: So So the practical piece of that, then is that 158 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: when we notice, like what we're not allowing in other women, 159 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: what we're getting triggered by, what we really dislike, what 160 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: will maybe lad to gossip about or be very negative about, 161 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: we need to ask ourselves what is it that's similar 162 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: to that that I'm not allowing in myself itself? And 163 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: can I give myself a little more permission around that? 164 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: Can I work through why did I start censoring that 165 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: or clamping that down? Um? In order for women to 166 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: really start doing what you're talking about empowering each other, 167 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: we have to UM really get comfortable with that place 168 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: of voice and empowerment in ourselves, and a lot of 169 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: us still aren't. This is actually goes into the group article, 170 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: which is how I found you. I was reading on 171 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: groop dot com and you have a entire article about 172 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: just women on women criticism and how it is so prevalent. 173 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: I know, it's definitely something I've experienced, and specifically in 174 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: the social media world. You know, it's like the bigger 175 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: your business gets, you talk about this a lot and 176 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 1: playing big. But the bigger you get, the more um 177 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: known your businesses or you are or whatever it is, 178 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: the more you open yourself up to praise and criticism. Obviously, 179 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: but what's been so interesting to me is I would 180 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: say percent of the criticism that I get is from women, 181 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: from other women. It's all very private. It's like you know, 182 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: the private profiles, its name calling, it's bashing, its derogatory names, 183 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: even going as far as to say I've been very 184 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: open about my fertility issues, but going as far as 185 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: as to say, like I don't deserve to be a mother, 186 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: and these are people who don't know me. So it's 187 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: been fascinating to me because I'm like, how can you 188 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: hate me so much if you don't know me, and 189 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: how do we criticize each other like that? Like what 190 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: has made that socially acceptable? Right? Right? Right? And you know, 191 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: I think that really is um in a in a 192 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: patriarchal culture where there's a kind of lashing out at 193 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: women that's acceptable that we just don't do with men. 194 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: There's a huge double standard of like what we expect 195 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: of women versus what we expect of men. So we 196 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: would expect you to you know, be this and that 197 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: and the other all at the same time and deliver 198 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: everything in a nice and tidy way, like all those 199 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: kinds of double standards. But you know, again, I think 200 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: that's really often a reflection of what those individuals haven't 201 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: permitted or made friends with in themselves, and whatever they're 202 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: policing in themselves. If that's unconscious, they're gonna be very 203 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: uncomfortable if they see that thing and free and free, 204 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, roaming free in front of them and want 205 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: to police it and tampa down. Um. And there's also 206 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: of course issues of scarcity, you know, and many people 207 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: have commented on this that if you're we're still in 208 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: a culture where there's going to be you know, one 209 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: token woman often allowed on let's say the board of 210 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: the company, or there's gonna be one token woman promoted 211 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: to the executive level. And so that naturally also creates 212 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: some dynamics of competition and scarcity among women that are 213 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: just quite different from what evolves among men. Right, So, 214 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: because there's not as many options, I was going to 215 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: ask our men as critical of other men as women 216 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: are of other women. You know that dynamic is is 217 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: I think not there. You don't have the scarcity thing 218 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: that we're just talking about. You don't have the same 219 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: levels of self censorship. But we could see the analogous 220 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: in for example, like men are taught they have to 221 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,959 Speaker 1: most men in our culture, most most boys in sort 222 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: of a mainstream in the mainstream of our culture, they're 223 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: taught I have to police my tears, I have to 224 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: police my sensitive feelings. I have to police in myself 225 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: anything that would be considered feminine. And then you can 226 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: see how then they go police it and other men. Right, 227 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: So if they see another guy crying, they're going to 228 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: make fun of that, or they're gonna you know, um, 229 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna toughen you up, or even like a fraternity 230 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: hazing thing, right is a way of saying, I'm not 231 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: gonna allow you know, we're all going to have to 232 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: press our emotions in the same ways that um that 233 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, if I had to, if I had to 234 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: become tough and unfeeling when I was, you know, on 235 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: my way in here, So won't you So that dynamic 236 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: you can see in men, what what is getting police 237 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: tends to be more around sensitivity and emotion. In women, 238 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: it tends to be more voice and power. Um. But 239 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: that same dynamic is going on, and if I've had 240 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: to censor it in myself, I don't really want to 241 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: see it in you. And so I'm an act out 242 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: of that. Wow, it's such an interesting thing how long 243 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: those programs have been intact for us, Because what you're 244 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: talking about, I mean that that you would think nowadays, 245 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: with all of the movement forward that we have had, 246 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: especially with women's rights and all that stuff that you 247 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: talked about at the beginning of this podcast, that maybe 248 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: some of those internal messages would have changed too, But 249 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know that it has yet. Yeah, 250 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: I think things are you know, there's so many different 251 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: ways to look at it. There's ways in which it's 252 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: getting better, and we can look at things like you know, 253 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: women in entrepreneurship and business and what you know, financial 254 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: earning powers see that things are really changing. On the 255 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: other hand, you can look at girls and eating disorders 256 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: and mental health and there's a lot of evidence maybe 257 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: we're going backwards. Um. Also, even in our media, a 258 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: lot of the statistics unfortunately suggests that you know, women 259 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: in film, for example, like you used to see a 260 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: much bigger range of female characters in movies in terms 261 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: of you know, what what you saw about women's emotions, 262 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: women's anger, women's voices, women's sexuality. That's actually narrowed a 263 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: lot um in media. So um, it's a complex picture. 264 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: But the big message I think is we all have 265 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: to recognize that those external changes, in those legal changes, 266 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: policy changes, that's not the whole picture. There's also the 267 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: whole psychological side of women's marginalization that was passed down 268 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: in our families and the way we were raised in 269 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: our culture for hundreds of years, and there's just some 270 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: unlearning and and learning to do, you know. And sometimes 271 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: I say, like, if you were born in this moment, 272 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: you were hired for the transition team, meaning We're in 273 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: this huge transition from world that's been largely defined and 274 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: led and designed by men to one that's hopefully going 275 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: to be led and defined by women alongside men. And 276 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: so this is the transition, and it will probably be 277 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: multi hundreds of years transition. So we don't need to 278 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: get impatient with it. But it can helps sometimes to 279 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: see yourself as part of that larger movement because instead 280 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: of being frustrated like, oh, why isn't every you know, 281 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: every promise of women's empowerment true? Yet, it's more like, yeah, 282 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: I'm on the transition team. We're in the era of 283 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: the transition. It's going to be very muddy, with lots 284 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: of different steps forward and back, and I can be 285 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: part of that. Right. What would be some ways that 286 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: you would say women could be a part of that, 287 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: like the change, the actual change, Like what can we 288 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: do to take steps forward within ourselves to where we're 289 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: not criticizing each other when those things come up for us, 290 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: we're actually like switching the narrative to like, oh, you know, 291 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: what's going on with me? Kind of like what you 292 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: said earlier, Yeah, well, I think any time a woman 293 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: is really um in touch with how is she how 294 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: does she want to play bigger in her life and 295 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: what's her playing big path. That's that's her contribution. And 296 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: so to me, you know, my definition of playing big 297 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: is playing big is being more loyal to your dreams 298 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: than to your fears. So it's very individual for each 299 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: woman to say, what are my real dreams, you know, 300 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: and not the dreams that contrast told me I should have, 301 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: or not the dreams that you know, this person that 302 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: I follow on social media. My my ego might think, Okay, 303 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: my dream is to have my life look like them, 304 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: or not the dream that your mother in law has 305 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 1: for you. But no, no, no, no, your real dreams 306 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,239 Speaker 1: for your work, for your impact, for your life, for 307 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: what you want your day to day to look like. 308 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: And then that alone usually scares the heck out of 309 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: all of us once we realize like that is, that's like, 310 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: oh my god, wait, it was actually way easier, Like 311 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: just compared, I like, listen to somebody's ship. Okay, are 312 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: you talking about that thing, you know, that thing that 313 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: I've rationalized away for the past ten years, or that 314 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: thing that seems so crazy or that think these things 315 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: like it would takes so much courage or it so scary, like, yes, 316 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm talking about that, and that's what we can start 317 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: by at least allowing that dream to be our dream, 318 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: like admitting it. And that doesn't at first, that doesn't 319 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: even mean you're not committing to pursue it. You don't 320 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: have to know how you're going to get there. Are 321 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: most likely well none I know how you're gonna get there. 322 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: But it's just saying, Okay, I'm gonna admit. I'm going 323 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: to admit that that is the dream. Um, you know. 324 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: And I always I remember this time when I when 325 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: I for myself first got in touch with, oh, I 326 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: want to work in the personal growth world. I want 327 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: to do things around psychology and spirituality. And I at 328 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: the time I was working in the nonprofit world. And 329 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: I but I had always my whole life, you know, 330 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: had this huge love on the side of personal growth 331 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: and psychology. And I remember like when I finally was 332 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: like that that's what I want to do. And I 333 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: had to kind of knock at my consciousness for many years. 334 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: And then I said to my husband, like we were 335 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: lying in bed at night, you know, falling asleep one 336 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: night talking and I just could just think, you know, 337 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: I think I want to go do be like a 338 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: personal growth writer teacher, and you know, and and I 339 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: whispered it because it felt that tentative, you know, it 340 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: felt that much like this is so tender, I can't 341 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: even say it fully out loud. And of course I 342 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: thought I was like announcing the news of the century. 343 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: And he was like, I know that, you know, like 344 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: everyone else knew it except for you exactly. So the 345 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: first thing is just admitting it to ourselves, and the 346 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: second thing is then to greet that in a friendly way, 347 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: you know, to stop playing the skeptic. You are not 348 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: like the shark tank judge of your own dream. That's 349 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: not your job. That's somebody else's job. Well, that's what 350 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: I do every day, right, tell myself all the reasons 351 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: why it will not work. Yes, And we're taught that 352 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: that's what it means to be realistic, right, to be rational. No, 353 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: that's what it means to be um skeptical. Those are 354 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: two totally different things. And because um, you know kind 355 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: of that, the patriarchal energy in our culture is valued 356 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: so much more like be rigorous, be tough on yourself, 357 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: versus the maternal energy of nurture something give it a 358 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: little food, grow it, give it a hug. That's not 359 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: valued as much in our culture, and so we stop 360 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: acting that way with our own dreams. But we need 361 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: to be more like that nurturing mother to our own dreams. 362 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: There's a time for skepticism, there's a time for rigorous evaluation. 363 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: It's much later down the line, and it's much more specific. 364 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: It's not for every moment, you know, for most moments, 365 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: it's oh, I hear you, Okay, that's the dream. We're 366 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 1: going to try and go do that. I don't know how, 367 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: but I'm at least going to be on your side. 368 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: So those are some of the first steps. Okay, So 369 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: once you accept whatever it is your dream is, and 370 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: then maybe you even start working towards it. Um A 371 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: lot of your conversation moved to feedback, and I identified 372 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: with this so much because you talk a lot about 373 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: just our need as women for praise and then the 374 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: effects of criticism and how it can just be crippling 375 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: for most women. I think it's for most humans, but 376 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: specifically women take on those things a lot bigger than 377 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: men apparently. So can you talk a little bit about 378 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: your mentality on feedback? Because you talk about a radical idea, 379 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: And when I read this in the group article, I 380 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: was like, oh my gosh, that's it. It's just that simple. Yeah. 381 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: So the radical idea is that feedback can never tell 382 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: you anything about yourself. It can only tell you about 383 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: the person or the people who are giving the feedback. Okay, 384 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: that's like a mind blowing thing to me, such a 385 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: simple statement, but it blew my mind. How is that possible? 386 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: Because what they're saying is about you, right, So let's 387 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: do a couple of examples. So let's say, um, what 388 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: would be like a typical maybe a sample job or 389 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: project that one of your listeners might be working on. 390 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: We can use an example, oh that one of my listeners, 391 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: or I mean, we could use like a blog post, 392 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: because I think you talked about that too, and I 393 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,239 Speaker 1: think these are pretty people. Could you know, relate this 394 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: to you if you're doing some work as a lawyer 395 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 1: or you're writing up something a different piece? Yeah? Yeah, okay, 396 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: So let's say I write a blog post and let's 397 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: say I get like, you know, a hundred lovely commens 398 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: on the blog post, like a lot of positive feedback. Now, 399 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: our our typical thing would be to say that feedback 400 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: is telling me something about me. So in that moment, 401 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: it would be sort of like, who, I wrote a 402 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: good blog post today, Or it mightbe I'd have that 403 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: momentary feeling, see I am a good writer or I 404 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: am meant to do this, so I'm making it about me. 405 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: But that, even in this instance with positive feedback, that's 406 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 1: going to set me up for some problems because if 407 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: that's my line of thinking on the day when there's 408 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: zero comments, right, then that means was am I not 409 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: a good writer anymore? Am I not meant to do 410 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: this work? Or if I get negative feedback, Let's say, 411 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: you know, I don't get much positive comments and then 412 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: like three or four people, um uh, Or let's say 413 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: get a bunch of unsubscribed that day. With that, right, 414 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: So if I make that about me again, oh um, 415 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: I'm bad at this. Maybe I don't how to write 416 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: clearly or whatever I would say. But are any of 417 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: those facts true? Like could we say it's true that 418 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: I'm quote unquote a good writer. Does it tell us 419 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: that that I got a hundred blog comments? Does it 420 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: tell us that I'm a bad writer that I got 421 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: zero comments? Right? We can see there's really no facts 422 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: about me in that feedback. Um, there is potentially some 423 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: information about my audience, and that information would be like, oh, 424 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: something about that post that got all those big those comments, 425 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: something about that was resonating with them. Maybe there's something 426 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: there to learn about their interests about the maybe the 427 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: tone of the piece or the length of the piece 428 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: that resonates with them, and that piece that got zero 429 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: comments and some unsubscribed, maybe that's also telling me something 430 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: about what they want or um, what their needs are 431 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: from from this reading that they're doing. If your manager 432 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: at works as to you, you know, you're really well organized, 433 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: but you're you know, not a great team player. Okay, 434 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: what facts do we have about you from that? Do 435 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: we know for sure you're well organized? No? Do we 436 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: know for sure you're not a great team player? No? Really, 437 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: the only information we have so far is something about 438 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: your boss's perception. And perhaps if we were to inquire 439 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: more from your boss, we've learned, like you could learn 440 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: a lot about your boss. What do they see as 441 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: an organization, what do they see as making someone a 442 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: good team player? What are they looking for in you? 443 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: So the feedback is always about the perspective and priorities 444 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: and preferences of the person giving it. And when we 445 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: know that, an important piece to to to go with it. 446 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: Next with that is that that doesn't mean that it's like, oh, 447 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: this isn't about me, this is about you, so screw it, 448 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to write all of it. That's not at 449 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, Okay, you 450 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: recognize it's information about the person. The next thing to 451 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: ask is is this person relevant to me to my goals? 452 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: You know, if this is my dear beloved sibling telling 453 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: me the feedback, they're really mad from the thing I did, that, 454 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: I might just idea that's really relevant to me to 455 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: go learn more about that. If this is my boss 456 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: and I want to keep this job, yeah, that's really 457 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: relevant to me. If this is a random person who 458 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: follows me on social media and it was you know, 459 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: three people gave similar feedback out of thousands, is that 460 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: relevant to me. Probably not. If this is you know, 461 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: if my boss loves what I did, but there's one 462 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: other senior person in the organization who was in the 463 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: room and didn't like it and made some comments telling 464 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: me that. That's a real ambiguous question. Is that person's 465 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: feedback relevant to my career goals. Yes or no? Sometimes 466 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: the answer is no, But a lot of women we 467 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: don't ever ask this relevance question. Everybody's feedback is relevant 468 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: because we're trying to be likable to everyone, and we 469 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: think we're supposed to win over everyone. No way, Well, 470 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: they need to win over who you need to win over? 471 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: Who you want to win over? You know, you only 472 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: need to incorporate feedback when it makes sense in terms 473 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 1: of your goals and priorities. So you ask is this 474 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: feedback relevant? And then if the answer is yes, then 475 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: it the question is okay, knowing it's about them, what 476 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: does it tell me about them and how to work 477 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: with them effectively, how to be in relationship with them effectively? 478 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: And when we frame it that way, we don't take 479 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: it personally anymore, so we don't get defensive, we don't 480 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: go on the emotional roller coaster. And then feedback can 481 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: become like a superpower because we're really able to use 482 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: it in an emotionally neutral way. Right. I It's so 483 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: interesting because I did not realize how much I've viewed 484 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: feedback as fact. So it was like, if the feedback 485 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: was bad then it can cripple me to not even 486 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: be not want to do anything anymore, you know, not 487 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: to put things out there. If the feedback is good, 488 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: it justifies everything I'm doing, like you said, And I 489 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: like the idea too of not putting us on the 490 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: defense and taking it personal, because you know, I think 491 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: this can go for relationships a lot. When you get feedback, 492 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: it is about how the person is interpreting that event, 493 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: and so that's why communication is so great. And like 494 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: you said, if it's a valuable relationship, then it should 495 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: be a situation where you try to understand it and 496 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: work through it. But it doesn't necessarily say anything about 497 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: you still, because that's what I always want to defend. 498 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 1: It's like, wait, wait, that's not true for me? Does 499 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: that make sense? Right? Right? Exactly? And and in a way, 500 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: we should never go to the question is the feedback 501 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: true or not? Okay, that's such a distraction because it's 502 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: always it's just some reflection of that person's perspective, and 503 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: so in that sense it's true for them, but the 504 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: factual truth of it, because there is no factual truth 505 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: of it, you know, and even like you can, I'll 506 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: often you know, take people through this exercise of Yeah, 507 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: let's say as a woman, you get the feedback that 508 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: you know you're you're too aggressive or abrasive in your communication, 509 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: which is a really common piece of feedback. So is 510 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: that factually true if you were a man, would that 511 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: be true? If you were in a different culture where 512 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: both genders are you know, socialized to be more direct 513 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 1: with that fact still be true? No, maybe even if 514 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: you were in a different industry, that wouldn't be quote 515 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: unquote true. So all of this feedback, it's always dependent 516 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: on the context of who's giving it, the culture it's 517 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: being given in, you know, sometimes the company culture, the 518 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: industry culture. That's so interesting. I noticed that a lot too, 519 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: being a woman from the South, you know, we kind 520 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: of hold these like standards to the way we communicate, 521 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: the way we act, even like the age we get 522 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: married um before, you know, just because of the societal 523 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: pres shirt and that actually has anything to do with 524 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: each individual, right right, Yeah, Well, thinking about um just 525 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: not taking feeback personally, and also just focusing so much 526 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: on your own life instead of others. Realizing your own 527 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: dreams once I'll desires. All the things we've talked about 528 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: so far really makes me think about your book playing big. Um. 529 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: I told you I've been listening to the audiobook all week, 530 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: and then I ordered the paperback so that I can 531 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: go back through and highlight all the things that I 532 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: want to take away with me. Um, I did not 533 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: realize how much I was playing small. I had no idea, 534 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: and then I just caught myself. I said, does that 535 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: make sense? Did you hear me say it so hard? 536 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: You talk about a lot of things that we do 537 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: as women to get you know, it's the apologies that 538 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, is I know? Um, that was a big 539 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: one for me to kind of get over in the 540 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: last couple of years. Also saying just I just I 541 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: just wonder or kind of you know, making ourselves small? 542 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,479 Speaker 1: What causes women to do this, to make their voices 543 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: and their ideas small? Yeah, well, some of it is, 544 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: like we learned, we learned the lesson that it can 545 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: be risky and we can be punished for not doing that. 546 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: And like, especially with these speech habits that you're talking 547 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: about right now, most girls learn at some point that 548 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: it is a bit risky to you know, without apology, 549 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: without hedging, to go in and confidently stayed an idea, 550 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: we might get a snarky little comment from someone you know, well, oh, 551 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: don't you know how to be the boss, or you know, 552 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: don't be too bossy, or you know, wait, listen to 553 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: their idea first. So we very quickly learn that we 554 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: have to navigate this incredibly tricky, pretty much impossible double 555 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: bind of like, somehow I have to get my ideas 556 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: out there, but I have to do it so softly 557 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: and without offending. And so that's why how we end up, 558 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, in these odd situations. Like a woman was 559 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: just saying to me, Um, she works in a pretty 560 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: senior level in finance and a very male dominated industry, 561 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: so she's, you know, she's had to be very groundbreaking 562 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: in that way. But she said, I still go into 563 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: the partner meetings and I would start by saying, you know, 564 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: everything I said. I would say, I'm sorry if somebody 565 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: thought of this already, or I'm sorry if you both 566 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: thought of this, but da da da da da da, 567 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: And then someone had to really tell her, you know, 568 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: you can't, you can't keep doing that. So we learn 569 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: that that we have to kind of find this tricky 570 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: way of like getting our voices out there, um without 571 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: threatening or without coming across as too arrogant. The problem 572 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: is that we we can overdo that, and we can 573 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: do it when it's no longer necessary. Like just because 574 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: when we were five years old or ten years old, 575 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: or in that first job or whatever, it really stung 576 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: when someone made us feel like we were being here again, 577 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: or we were being bossy, or we were speaking out 578 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: of turn. That doesn't mean we should keep going with 579 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: all the habits that came from that right now in 580 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: our lives and a lot of times it's just that 581 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: conditioning things we learned to try and protect ourselves from 582 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: those criticisms. Um. And you know, there's a lot of 583 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: research showing that women often are perceived as competent or likable, 584 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: but not both, Yester. Yeah, so men we don't you know, 585 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: in our culture, for white men, we don't have trouble 586 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: perceiving a man as likable and competent. Right, And you 587 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: can think of all these images we might have of like, oh, 588 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: you know, he's the the CEO of the company, and 589 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: he's also a great guy, he's so generous, kind of 590 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: like the benevolent patriarch figure. Right. But when we comes 591 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: to women, we get like the double wares product kind 592 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: of thing of Oh, okay, it's just a highly effective 593 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: see yo, but she's the high queen, she's highly competent, 594 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: but she's not likable. Or she can be the sweet 595 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: little housewife, but she's really likable and lovely, but she's 596 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: not that competent. Right. So, and interestingly, UM research has 597 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: found that that's not just a gender thing. Like you 598 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: can also look at cultural stereotypes and see how we 599 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: even can stereotype different cultural groups. Oh, these people are 600 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: really smart, but maybe we don't think of them as 601 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 1: so likable. Or this group, oh, lovely, down to earth 602 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: likable people, but we don't think of them as then 603 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: the geniuses. So it's with any with any sort of 604 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: person that doesn't have the most high status identity in 605 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: our culture. So in our culture that tends to be 606 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: white men. But whoever has that high status, they can 607 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: be seen as likable and competent, but everyone else gets 608 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: divided into one of the two categories. So unconsciously we 609 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: kind of know this, right, Like, that's why you're saying, 610 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: does that make sense? And just this we're saying, how 611 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: do I show my competence but still be likable? Right, 612 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: that's kind of what's going on unconsciously there. And so 613 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: the more deliberate thing we can do as women is 614 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: is think about how do I fully feel free in 615 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: showing my competence but also convey warmth. But the warmth 616 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: isn't going to come out in ways that diminish me, 617 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: like I'm sorry but or I don't know if you 618 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: already thought of this. It's going to come out in 619 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: positive ways, like I'm so happy to get to be 620 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: here with you guys today, I'm really looking forward to 621 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: hearing your perspective. Or hey, before I tell you my 622 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: great idea at this meeting, I want to you know, first, 623 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: we're going to just talk a little bit about the 624 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: weekend and connect a bit as humans, so we can 625 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: show that warmth and positive ways instead of what most 626 00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: of us have learned to do, which is I'm going 627 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: to day up down my competence in order to seem 628 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: more likable. That's true because when I say it a 629 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: lot of times, and you write about this in the book, 630 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: but I know what I'm saying, and I'm certain it 631 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: makes sense actually because to me it does. And I 632 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: say that to to almost like I don't know if 633 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: it's to make sure the other person gets it or 634 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,479 Speaker 1: they're comfortable, or if they don't get it, you say 635 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: that's okay. That's for them to say, no, I don't understand, 636 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: not for you to go. Does that make sense to 637 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: downplay what you're saying, right exactly? And you could say, 638 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: how does that sound to you? Where your thoughts and 639 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: questions about that? So you're still making what this is? 640 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: What um? John Gottman, the psychologist, he called it a 641 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: bid for connection? Yeah, right, it's a bid for connection. 642 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: And that's healthy and I think that's a strength that 643 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: women bring as leaders. Right as we're saying, I do 644 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: want to check in and know how it looks with you. 645 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: I do want to know if my audience is tracking. 646 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: I want you to know I care. The problem is 647 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: when we do that in ways that then undermine us. Right. 648 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: So if I just shared my idea and I'm passionate 649 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: about it, and like you're saying, I know that it's great, 650 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: and then I say, did I think that that makes sense? 651 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: And it just makes sense? Is that clear? Of? Like 652 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: maybe I'm unclear? Maybe my idea makes me sense. Now 653 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: I'm undermining myself instead of I can still make the 654 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: bid for connection, but in a positive way. What do 655 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: you think about that? Or what tell me what questions 656 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: you have right that? That's another way to do it. Okay, 657 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: tell me the woman that you wrote this book for. Oh, 658 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: what a great question. You know. I always think about 659 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: one of my first coaching clients, UM who was? I 660 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: talk about her a little bit in the book, but 661 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: she was Um. She worked inside a large nonprofit organization 662 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: and she was kind of she was very anonymous inside 663 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: the organization, like she had sort of been a support 664 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: role job for someone else and was, you know, doing 665 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: a lot of paper pushing and administrative kind of work. 666 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: And she came in for coaching and it turned out 667 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: like she was reading every single journal in her field, 668 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: and she had all these incredible ideas and then she 669 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: was doing all this reading in like two or three 670 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: adjacent fields and putting ideas together in a really interesting way. 671 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: And she had this huge vision for like change in 672 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: her industry and critique of what was going on, but 673 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 1: none of it was getting out and no one around 674 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: her knew anything about it. It's like such a secret. 675 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: And so with her and with other clients, we really 676 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: tried to figure out like what's going to help that 677 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 1: be liberated? And I'm so happy to say now you know, 678 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: this is ten years later, and sometimes I'll just get 679 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: her updates on LinkedIn and it's like she has her own, 680 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: like totally cutting edge consulting firm now with two other 681 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: women and they're doing all the stuff and got you know, 682 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,280 Speaker 1: she's like you just look at her. She's so expressed 683 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: in her style and known in the industry. And you 684 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: know that for me is the dream. It's just like 685 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: the gems that are inside of all of us actually 686 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: get to come forth. Yes, what I also want to 687 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: point out is we've done a lot of talks about, 688 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, the ambition peace, and I always associate that 689 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: and maybe even the terms playing big with super successful ceo, 690 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 1: you know, leader of a company, and those things are wonderful. 691 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: But I loved that you said, and this this this 692 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: goes back to the Goop article, but you said, this 693 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: doesn't simply mean your egos ambitions, like playing big isn't 694 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: just that, but it's a pursuit of whatever your heartfelt 695 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: dreams or your for your life and your passions might be. 696 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: So it could be anything, right for sure, And in fact, 697 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: you know also, like in those early years, um there 698 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: was a woman in our course and the online Playing 699 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: Big course who got this promotion in her company that 700 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: every one had been fighting for. It was like there 701 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: were twenty people at one level and one person got 702 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: to level up into this role and she got offer 703 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: at the promotion. And she thought long and hard about it, 704 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: and she decided that her playing big was turning it 705 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: down because she loved her team and she was in 706 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,879 Speaker 1: the middle of leading her team through this five year 707 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: project and she said, I don't want to leave in 708 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: year three. I want to see this thing through. I 709 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: care about the project, I care about my team. And 710 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,280 Speaker 1: she said, I had to really disagree with my company's 711 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: culture where there's all these fast promotions and everything is 712 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: up up, up, and people are moving around to try 713 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: and get the biggest raise entitle and it hurts the 714 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: value we're providing for our customers. And so she turned 715 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,800 Speaker 1: it down on that basis, and it was such a 716 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: powerful decision. It was such a feminist decision in my mind, 717 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: because it was also putting the emphasis on relationality and 718 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: results instead of kind of the hierarchy. And then, of course, 719 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, after a few years went by the leadership 720 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 1: came back to her and said, now you're so known 721 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,240 Speaker 1: for being this remarkable manager who sticks with your people 722 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: and sees things through, and now we want to give 723 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: you an even more senior role. But yeah, it can 724 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: mean going for a bigger title or salary. It can 725 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: mean turning that down. It can mean doing something that 726 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: looks big to the world, or it can mean doing 727 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: something that nobody else even understands. And often it will mean, 728 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, doing somethody nobody else understands, because sometimes the 729 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: reasons those dreams are so scary is because it's not 730 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: what looks big by the world. I it's like, oh, 731 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna quit my you know, lawyer job 732 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: right before I become a partner and open my knitting business. 733 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: That might be playing big for someone, And that's a 734 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: very legitimate form of it because it often is countercultural, 735 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: right right, So it truly is it's just whatever it 736 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: is that's true for you and the desires of your heart, yea, 737 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: and paying attention to that, yeah, I love that. Well, 738 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: if you're listening and you're feeling lost or you're talking 739 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: yourself out of any dreams or desires, you might have. 740 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to say, read this book. It's called Playing Big. 741 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: It's been super helpful to me. Um. Also on Tara 742 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,800 Speaker 1: Moore dot com you have Ten Rules for Brilliant Women 743 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: that I thought was a great piece. It's just about 744 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: the ten principles for owning your brilliance and bringing it 745 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: to the world. Can you tell us a little bit 746 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 1: about that? Oh? Sure? Yeah? The Ten Rules, um, are 747 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: you know a lot about the things that we are 748 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: talking about today, like questioning the voice in you that 749 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: says you're not ready yet and being a little more 750 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: of an arrogant idiot. And you find out what that 751 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,280 Speaker 1: means in the rules and how do we really support 752 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: and affirm other women. And it's a quick read. But 753 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: there's also a workbook that goes with it that takes 754 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: you through applying them in your life, and that's all 755 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: free and on my website it's just Tara Moore dot 756 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: com slash ten Rules. Amazing. Also, we were talking before 757 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: this about the courses that you offer. They're Playing Big courses, right, 758 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 1: So are you taking people through the book? How does 759 00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: that work? Yeah? So the course as have been around 760 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: actually since before the book, but now often people come 761 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: to them through the book UM. They're all online of course, 762 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: and it's a six months journey. So I really value 763 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: having time for people to make real change in their lives, 764 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: which I don't think we make by just getting a 765 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 1: lot of information dumped on us. So there's time to 766 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: really practice like new habits of mind and new behaviors 767 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: and and run experiments in your life with support UM. 768 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,319 Speaker 1: And it's live calls if you want to attend lives, 769 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: so you get that benefit of really like being in 770 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: a workshop setting with me and with other amazing women 771 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: from around the world, and lots of coaching and Q 772 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,479 Speaker 1: and A and practice applying the tools. So the next 773 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: one of those will start UM early in the new 774 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: year and then are earlier than that our facilitators training begins. 775 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: That's in the fall, and that's UM for people who 776 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 1: want to learn the Playing Big model and learning tools 777 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: not just for their own playing journey, but also they're 778 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: Playing Big Journey UM, but also to bring those tools 779 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: into work they do with others. So whether you're you know, 780 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: we have coaches and health coaches and UM people who 781 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: are in management roles, are mentoring roles, teachers, therapists UM 782 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: who we've this tool kit into what they're doing, and 783 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: that's a really amazing global community as well. Well. We 784 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: know those dates will stick because you can do this 785 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,279 Speaker 1: while in quarantine, so if we get stuck this way, 786 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: nothing will change. Where else can people find you? Tara? Yeah, 787 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: Tara more dot com, um Tara Sophia Moore on Instagram 788 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 1: and I think those are the best spot and more 789 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: is spelled m o h are you guys so check 790 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: her out? It'sara. Thank you so much for being here. 791 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: I I signed up for the course. I can't wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 792 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for the fun conversation and all the insightful 793 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,879 Speaker 1: questions and just for for drinking up the material. It's 794 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: really it's always such a pleasure to talk to someone 795 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: who like got it and they've got the nuances of 796 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:09,919 Speaker 1: it and gets excited about it. And I really, yes, 797 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about it. And I hope for all 798 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: the women listening that this is something I want us 799 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,359 Speaker 1: to all team up together and just start empowering each 800 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: other instead of taking each other down, because I think 801 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: we have a lot of power to do that. Absolutely, 802 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much again, and thank you guys for listening. 803 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: This is Kelly Henderson and you've been listening to the 804 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: Velvet Edge podcast. I truly believe that every one of 805 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: us has a little velvet and a little edge, so 806 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 1: it's so important to remember that to be strong, you 807 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: must be solved too. Thank you so much for sharing 808 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: in those stories with me. You can follow Velvet's Edge 809 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, as well as velvet's Edge 810 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: dot com. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts 811 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: and subscribe, rate and review this podcast. Join me every 812 00:45:55,160 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 1: Wednesday for more conversations on lifestyle, beauty, and relationships. Thanks 813 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: for listening.