WEBVTT - Roger McGuinn 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:21.596 Pushkin, I want to let you know that Rick has 0:00:21.596 --> 0:00:25.636 a new podcast called Tetragrammaton. After about four to five 0:00:25.716 --> 0:00:28.636 years of recording Broken Record, Rick decided he wanted to 0:00:28.636 --> 0:00:31.796 talk to more than just musicians, so on his new podcast, 0:00:31.916 --> 0:00:37.716 he'll be talking to actors, directors, wrestlers, business people, anyone 0:00:37.836 --> 0:00:40.916 that Rick finds interesting. So make sure to subscribe to 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:46.756 Tetragrammatin wherever you listen to podcasts. Roger mcgwin is best 0:00:46.796 --> 0:00:50.636 known as the driving force behind The Birds, a group 0:00:50.676 --> 0:00:54.236 that fused folk in popular music in the sixties, but 0:00:54.356 --> 0:00:58.676 mcgwinn is also a preservationist of traditional folk music. For 0:00:58.716 --> 0:01:01.716 the past twenty seven years, he's been re recording traditional 0:01:01.756 --> 0:01:04.156 folk songs and sharing them on a section of his 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:08.196 website called The Folk Den. On today's episode, Rick Rubin 0:01:08.236 --> 0:01:11.476 talks to mcgwin about the Folk Den and about his 0:01:11.556 --> 0:01:14.476 decades long career, which started in the early sixties in 0:01:14.516 --> 0:01:17.756 Greenwich Village cafes, where he played alongside the likes of 0:01:17.836 --> 0:01:22.316 Bob Dylan and Richie Havens. Mcgwinn reminisces two about the 0:01:22.396 --> 0:01:25.556 vibrant music scene in la and talks about meeting his 0:01:25.636 --> 0:01:29.676 Bird's bandmate David Crosby for the first time Rip Cross. 0:01:30.316 --> 0:01:33.156 You'll hear mcgwinn plays guitar throughout the interview and also 0:01:33.156 --> 0:01:36.436 talk about how playing basketball with Bob Dylan helped inspired 0:01:36.556 --> 0:01:43.676 Dylan's story tour The Rolling Thunder Review. This is broken 0:01:43.716 --> 0:01:45.996 record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:46.156 --> 0:01:47.076 I'm justin Mitchman. 0:01:48.036 --> 0:01:49.996 Here's Rick Rubin and Roger mcgwin. 0:01:51.156 --> 0:01:54.356 Hello, Hello, Hey, Rick, how you doing cool Man? Tell 0:01:54.356 --> 0:01:56.796 me about the folk den Back. 0:01:56.636 --> 0:02:00.236 In nineteen ninety five, I was listening to a Smithsonian 0:02:00.276 --> 0:02:04.916 Folkways album of traditional music, and it struck me that 0:02:05.436 --> 0:02:09.116 the new folk singers were not doing traditional songs anymore. There, 0:02:09.276 --> 0:02:13.196 Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, they're writing their own songs, and 0:02:13.236 --> 0:02:17.076 they're great songs. But what happens if you know Pete 0:02:17.076 --> 0:02:20.636 Siegert eyes or Odetta Dyes and they did. I looked 0:02:20.636 --> 0:02:23.636 at NPR's Top one hundred folk songs, and only eight 0:02:23.716 --> 0:02:26.716 of them were traditional. The rest of them were, you know, 0:02:26.876 --> 0:02:32.876 James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Eric Anderson, John Denver, I mean, 0:02:32.956 --> 0:02:37.316 everybody but the hundreds of years old, like the child ballads, 0:02:37.356 --> 0:02:42.716 the cowboys songs, the sea shanties, the prison songs, all 0:02:42.716 --> 0:02:45.476 these songs were just neglected. They're just not being done. 0:02:45.676 --> 0:02:49.116 I thought, man, what's going to happen? So I knew 0:02:48.916 --> 0:02:51.996 how to record stuff on a computer. I learned that 0:02:52.036 --> 0:02:55.396 back in the early nineties when Terry Munscher invited me 0:02:55.436 --> 0:02:58.196 out to play on a Beach Boys album and it 0:02:58.356 --> 0:03:01.956 was the first pro Tools session with It was a 0:03:02.036 --> 0:03:06.996 Mac Quadra with twelve gigabytes of optical RAM and we 0:03:07.316 --> 0:03:08.996 did a Beach Boys album. It turned out to be 0:03:08.996 --> 0:03:12.076 the worst Beach Boys album in the world because he 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:15.196 was using MIDI for the bass and drums and stuff. 0:03:15.796 --> 0:03:18.036 But it was an eye opener for me that you 0:03:18.076 --> 0:03:21.476 could record on a computer. Before that, everybody was like, 0:03:21.756 --> 0:03:24.356 you know, four track, eight track, sixteen track, thirty two tracks, 0:03:24.396 --> 0:03:28.756 sixty four tracks, and digital sixty four track. And then 0:03:29.516 --> 0:03:32.356 pro Tools came out. This is like a beta copy 0:03:32.396 --> 0:03:36.156 of pro Tools back in ninety one, and I, this 0:03:36.356 --> 0:03:38.476 is great, man. I got to get this going. So 0:03:38.916 --> 0:03:42.716 I came home and I got myself some recording software 0:03:43.356 --> 0:03:46.276 and I started recording songs and putting them up on 0:03:46.316 --> 0:03:49.756 my website in a section called the Folk Den to 0:03:50.156 --> 0:03:52.796 preserve the songs, and I put a little story about 0:03:52.836 --> 0:03:55.716 the song. The lyrics, the chords, and a little picture 0:03:56.156 --> 0:03:58.916 like a coffee table book to kind of tie it 0:03:58.916 --> 0:04:01.836 all together. And I've been doing that since November of 0:04:01.916 --> 0:04:06.396 nineteen ninety five, and to date it's the twenty seventh 0:04:06.436 --> 0:04:07.836 anniversary of. 0:04:07.716 --> 0:04:12.756 That unbelievable, so beautiful. I came to find folk then 0:04:12.956 --> 0:04:17.036 probably when I think when the CD Treasures of the 0:04:17.036 --> 0:04:19.676 Folk Then came out is when I got turned onto it. 0:04:20.676 --> 0:04:22.996 And I got turned onto it because I was researching 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:26.236 folk songs and it was so hard to find them. 0:04:25.956 --> 0:04:29.236 And exactly they were going away, They were being just 0:04:29.396 --> 0:04:30.396 swept under the rug. 0:04:30.996 --> 0:04:32.956 Was it clear in the early days, like when you 0:04:32.996 --> 0:04:36.316 first learned folk songs when you were a kid, was 0:04:36.356 --> 0:04:38.996 it obvious that this was old music from another time? 0:04:39.356 --> 0:04:41.596 Tell me about your relationship to folk music when you 0:04:41.636 --> 0:04:43.036 first got into folk music. 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:46.436 Well, I first got into it. I was going to 0:04:46.476 --> 0:04:49.876 high school in Chicago, and my music teacher invited Bob 0:04:49.916 --> 0:04:52.076 Gibson to come over and play a forty five minute 0:04:52.116 --> 0:04:54.436 set on the five string banjo, and he did all 0:04:54.476 --> 0:04:57.956 this fancy picking and telling stories about the songs, and 0:04:57.996 --> 0:05:00.236 I just loved it. Before that, I'd been to Elvis 0:05:00.276 --> 0:05:05.156 and Geane Vincent Carl Perkins, Rockabilly, Tiny Cash, the Everly Brothers. 0:05:05.916 --> 0:05:09.676 But when Gibson did that, it made me run up 0:05:09.716 --> 0:05:11.716 to my music teacher and ask what kind of music 0:05:11.796 --> 0:05:14.636 is that? And she said it's folk music and I said, wow, 0:05:14.916 --> 0:05:16.956 you know I heard Burr Lives. He didn't sound like 0:05:16.956 --> 0:05:19.636 like that. So she pointed me over to a new 0:05:19.676 --> 0:05:22.156 school that had just opened up in nineteen fifty seven 0:05:22.156 --> 0:05:24.676 in Chicago called the Old Town School of Folk Music. 0:05:25.436 --> 0:05:28.236 I went over there and Frank Hamilton sat me down 0:05:28.316 --> 0:05:30.796 and said, play me something you know, and I played 0:05:30.956 --> 0:05:33.396 a rockabilly song and he went uh huh. And then 0:05:33.436 --> 0:05:34.916 he said, you know how to play the circle of 0:05:34.956 --> 0:05:40.956 fifths and he went like. I said, no, I didn't 0:05:40.956 --> 0:05:43.276 know how to do that. He said, well, you know 0:05:43.276 --> 0:05:48.516 how to play the blues. I said no, I didn't 0:05:48.556 --> 0:05:50.076 know how to do that either. I said, well what 0:05:50.116 --> 0:05:58.636 about fingerpicking? I said, okay, I got a lot to learn. 0:05:58.836 --> 0:06:01.436 So I started going to the Old Town School two 0:06:01.476 --> 0:06:03.316 days a week and I did that for three years 0:06:03.476 --> 0:06:07.316 until Frank finally Frank Hamilton finally said, I really can't 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:09.956 teach you anything more in this format. You know, you 0:06:09.996 --> 0:06:13.236 could have some private lessons for twelve dollars an hour. Well, 0:06:13.276 --> 0:06:16.116 I didn't have the twelve dollars an hour, so that 0:06:16.236 --> 0:06:18.076 was it. I kind of quit going to the Old 0:06:18.116 --> 0:06:21.836 Town School. But shortly after that, I went down to 0:06:21.876 --> 0:06:24.236 the Gate of Horn after a coffeehouse gig, and I 0:06:24.276 --> 0:06:27.676 had my banjo and guitar and hardshell cases, and I 0:06:27.716 --> 0:06:29.156 was real proud of them because I looked like a 0:06:29.196 --> 0:06:33.036 professional musician. And I walked to the Lime Lighters and 0:06:33.156 --> 0:06:36.076 Theodore Riquel were sitting around the bar. So I walked 0:06:36.076 --> 0:06:38.836 into the bar and this jam session was going on, 0:06:38.876 --> 0:06:41.756 and Alex Hasselev from the Limelighter said, what you got there, kid? 0:06:42.236 --> 0:06:44.756 I said, I got a banjo and a guitar, and 0:06:45.036 --> 0:06:46.996 he said, great, break out the banjo. We got too 0:06:46.996 --> 0:06:49.476 many guitars going. So I did, and I played with 0:06:49.516 --> 0:06:51.916 them till five o'clock in the morning, and that's when 0:06:52.436 --> 0:06:54.676 that's when they hired me. They hired me to be 0:06:54.716 --> 0:06:58.196 a backup musician for them. But I said, well, I 0:06:58.236 --> 0:07:02.396 can't start right now because I'm still going to high school. 0:07:02.796 --> 0:07:05.636 And so they sent me a letter and my parents 0:07:05.676 --> 0:07:07.916 had to sign it because I was under eighteen, and 0:07:07.956 --> 0:07:10.156 they sent me a plane ticket in June and flew 0:07:10.156 --> 0:07:13.636 me out to la and I recorded with them at 0:07:13.676 --> 0:07:17.796 the Ashgrove a record called Tonight in Person, and that 0:07:17.956 --> 0:07:20.636 was the beginning of my professional musical career. 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:21.876 How old were you at that time? 0:07:22.596 --> 0:07:24.516 I was seventeen when I went out there. I turned 0:07:24.516 --> 0:07:25.796 eighteen at the Ashgrove. 0:07:26.076 --> 0:07:29.516 Amazing. But you started as a rock fan and then 0:07:29.556 --> 0:07:31.556 you fell in love with folk? Is that how it happened? 0:07:32.356 --> 0:07:36.396 Yeah? I got into Elvis when I was fourteen. I 0:07:36.436 --> 0:07:39.036 had a transistor radio, which was a new thing at 0:07:39.036 --> 0:07:41.196 the time, and it meant you could listen to what 0:07:41.236 --> 0:07:43.276 you wanted to listen to on the radio instead of 0:07:43.316 --> 0:07:45.636 a big wooden box in the living room. And I 0:07:45.716 --> 0:07:48.996 used to ride my bike around Chicago and listen to WJJAD, 0:07:49.156 --> 0:07:53.116 which was a rock station, and I heard like a. 0:07:52.356 --> 0:07:56.116 Well, it's my beloved new place to twelve. 0:07:56.876 --> 0:07:59.156 I went, Wow, that's really cool. And I had no 0:07:59.236 --> 0:08:02.916 idea that he was combining country music and blues and 0:08:02.996 --> 0:08:07.476 you know, he was doing a synthesis of different styles 0:08:07.676 --> 0:08:09.876 because he'd grown up with that all around him. 0:08:10.356 --> 0:08:13.436 Do you think that's what makes all great new forms 0:08:13.436 --> 0:08:16.436 of music are synthesis of other forms of music that 0:08:16.516 --> 0:08:17.996 come together to create something new. 0:08:18.756 --> 0:08:21.396 I do, I really do. Yeah, And that's what happened 0:08:21.396 --> 0:08:25.276 when we combined the Beatles and Bob Dylan and people went, wow, 0:08:25.316 --> 0:08:28.156 that's that's different. I mean, they say, okay, well, Eric 0:08:28.556 --> 0:08:31.516 Eric Burdon had done The House of New Orleans, which 0:08:31.796 --> 0:08:34.276 was a blues a folk song, and he did that 0:08:34.356 --> 0:08:37.796 before mister Tambrieman. But somehow mister tam Brienman was a 0:08:37.836 --> 0:08:40.916 little different. It was more of a legato kind of thing, 0:08:41.956 --> 0:08:45.756 a flowing melody, and the lyrics were out of this world. 0:08:45.796 --> 0:08:47.836 I mean, you know, take me for a trip on 0:08:47.876 --> 0:08:50.716 your magic swirling schip. All my senses have been stripped. 0:08:50.716 --> 0:08:53.116 My hands can't field the grip. I tosed two number 0:08:53.156 --> 0:08:55.756 a step wait only from my boot heels to be wandering. 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:59.436 I went, wow, this is so cool and I fell 0:08:59.476 --> 0:09:01.676 in love with Dylan's writing at that point. 0:09:01.876 --> 0:09:04.596 Was that the first Bob Dylan song you ever heard? No. 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:06.956 I was in the village hanging out in the early 0:09:07.036 --> 0:09:09.996 sixties when Bob got there. I was hanging out at 0:09:10.036 --> 0:09:12.756 Gertie Folks City and I saw Bob play there and 0:09:12.956 --> 0:09:15.396 he was mostly doing Woody Guthrie stuff at that point. 0:09:15.436 --> 0:09:18.756 He had one time though. I was over at the 0:09:19.036 --> 0:09:24.036 White Horse Tavern and Theodore Bikel came running over. He'd 0:09:24.076 --> 0:09:26.756 been in I guess the Gaslight cafe and he said, 0:09:26.756 --> 0:09:28.916 I just heard this marvelous song. It was blowing in 0:09:28.956 --> 0:09:32.116 the wind and he played it you, so yeah, I'd 0:09:32.156 --> 0:09:34.476 heard Dylan's stuff before the Birds. 0:09:35.036 --> 0:09:37.876 Was it obvious when you decided to do a cover 0:09:37.996 --> 0:09:40.676 song in the Birds of a Dylan song? Was it 0:09:40.716 --> 0:09:43.756 obvious that Tambourine Man would be the first one? How 0:09:43.796 --> 0:09:45.516 did it happen that you picked that song if you 0:09:45.556 --> 0:09:46.196 knew the others? 0:09:47.196 --> 0:09:50.116 We didn't really pick it. Jim Dixon was our manager 0:09:50.156 --> 0:09:54.396 and he was a producer engineer at World Pacific Records 0:09:54.396 --> 0:09:58.276 in LA and he had an advanced copy of Dylan's 0:09:58.316 --> 0:10:00.996 Mister Tambrie Men, which was something like a. 0:10:03.156 --> 0:10:04.076 Listed ham. 0:10:05.876 --> 0:10:08.156 And he thought it was a great song. I guess 0:10:08.276 --> 0:10:12.796 lyrically the tune, and he was kind of shopping it 0:10:12.836 --> 0:10:16.676 around different people. I think some of the guys who 0:10:16.676 --> 0:10:20.516 were blue dress guys back in La heard it first, 0:10:21.276 --> 0:10:24.596 and he played it for us. It was five minutes 0:10:24.596 --> 0:10:27.716 four and a half minute demo with Bob and Ramblin, 0:10:27.836 --> 0:10:30.436 Jack Elliott and Ramblin was just kind of out there 0:10:30.476 --> 0:10:32.716 and singing out a tune. So that's why he didn't 0:10:32.756 --> 0:10:34.876 release it, because Bob never liked to go back and 0:10:34.916 --> 0:10:38.116 fix stuff, you know, it's like very like to get 0:10:38.116 --> 0:10:41.956 the impromptu thing, whatever happened when you recorded it. So 0:10:42.356 --> 0:10:45.636 we had this demo and they played it for us 0:10:45.636 --> 0:10:48.236 and Crosby said, I don't like it, man, that folky 0:10:48.276 --> 0:10:50.476 two four time. It's never going to play on the radio. 0:10:51.076 --> 0:10:53.636 And he was right because radio wouldn't play anything over 0:10:53.836 --> 0:10:56.156 like two and a half minutes, and they're playing rock 0:10:56.196 --> 0:10:58.236 and roll four to four beat instead of two four. 0:10:58.916 --> 0:11:01.956 So I rearranged it. I'd been an arranger I worked 0:11:01.956 --> 0:11:04.356 with I was a studio guy in New York and 0:11:04.396 --> 0:11:07.516 I worked with Chudy Collins and some other people. So 0:11:07.796 --> 0:11:15.316 I rearranged it with the and it changed the whole 0:11:15.356 --> 0:11:17.196 thing a million percent. 0:11:17.276 --> 0:11:22.316 I mean, it's the it's the signature musical sound of 0:11:22.356 --> 0:11:25.796 the song, and it created a whole new genre. It's amazing. 0:11:26.476 --> 0:11:28.596 You talked about so many interesting things, and I want 0:11:28.636 --> 0:11:31.556 to hear about all of them. So let's talk about 0:11:31.836 --> 0:11:34.556 the village folk scene when you were there. What was 0:11:34.596 --> 0:11:37.876 that world like? First? How long were we therefore? Who 0:11:37.876 --> 0:11:42.156 were the other artists around. Tell me everything about it, okay. 0:11:42.196 --> 0:11:45.556 Well, after the Limelighter's gig, I got a Sideman gig 0:11:45.596 --> 0:11:49.196 with the Chad Mitchell trio and I actually moved to 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:52.036 New York and lived on I had an apartment with 0:11:52.076 --> 0:11:55.676 Mike Settle on Fourteenth Street. This is early sixties, I 0:11:55.716 --> 0:11:58.556 guess sixties sixty one, sixty two, sixty three round there, 0:11:58.956 --> 0:12:03.116 and the village was very vibrant with folk music. At 0:12:03.156 --> 0:12:06.716 the Gaslight Cafe, Dave van Rock was there and other 0:12:06.876 --> 0:12:10.476 artists and Bob would be around played Gerty's Folks City. 0:12:11.076 --> 0:12:13.796 I used to watch all the acts at Cisco Houston 0:12:13.836 --> 0:12:17.916 and all the guys that played Folk City, and I'd 0:12:17.996 --> 0:12:20.676 go to like the other coffee houses, the Cafe one. 0:12:21.476 --> 0:12:24.876 But I got a gig at the Cafe Playhouse. It 0:12:24.996 --> 0:12:27.756 was on McDougall Street and it was one of the 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:32.156 pass ahead around kind of place, and I remember Richie 0:12:32.156 --> 0:12:35.996 Havens was there at the time. John Sebastian and Peter 0:12:36.156 --> 0:12:40.076 Tork was playing banjo at that point, and I remember 0:12:40.076 --> 0:12:42.796 Sebastian saying, you don't want to follow Richie Havens because 0:12:42.876 --> 0:12:45.156 if you passed, they had after Richie, there's no money left, 0:12:46.556 --> 0:12:49.436 that's all gone. So there was a vibrant folk scene. 0:12:49.436 --> 0:12:52.836 I remember Freddie Neil there hanging out and all kinds 0:12:52.836 --> 0:12:54.156 of folk singers. 0:12:53.836 --> 0:12:58.356 Around, and the majority of them were playing traditional folk songs. 0:12:59.276 --> 0:13:05.876 Yes, they're playing acoustic traditional songs. And then the Beatles 0:13:05.876 --> 0:13:07.876 came out while I was still living in New York 0:13:08.276 --> 0:13:10.556 and I heard the Beatles and I went, wow, they 0:13:10.556 --> 0:13:15.836 were using folk music chord changes. I thought, wow, the 0:13:15.916 --> 0:13:18.796 million folk songs had that, and it gave me the 0:13:18.836 --> 0:13:22.276 idea of combining folk music and rock and roll. And 0:13:22.316 --> 0:13:25.836 I started doing some Beatles songs at the Cafe Playhouse 0:13:25.836 --> 0:13:28.476 and people going, what's he doing? Man? It's like you know, 0:13:29.796 --> 0:13:32.316 but one clue I think. I was on the Bleaker 0:13:32.356 --> 0:13:34.836 Street and there were a couple of promoters that I'd 0:13:34.836 --> 0:13:37.236 seen around and they pointed to me and said, what 0:13:37.276 --> 0:13:39.556 we need is four of him, and I went, oh, 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:41.636 I think I'm onto something amazing. 0:13:41.716 --> 0:13:43.356 And then when did you decide to put the band 0:13:43.396 --> 0:13:45.476 together or did you decide or did it just happen? 0:13:46.196 --> 0:13:49.716 It happened. So I was playing these Beatleaf kind of 0:13:49.756 --> 0:13:53.276 songs at the Cafe Playhouse and people weren't going for it. 0:13:53.636 --> 0:13:55.716 But the promoter liked it. He put a sign outside 0:13:55.716 --> 0:14:00.756 that said Beatle impersonation, and the tourist buses were coming around, 0:14:00.756 --> 0:14:03.116 and I thought, this is embarrassing. I want to get 0:14:03.116 --> 0:14:05.316 out of New York. So I flew out to la 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:07.756 and I got a gig at the Troubadour opening up 0:14:07.756 --> 0:14:10.476 for Hoyd Accident, and I was doing the same kind 0:14:10.476 --> 0:14:13.596 of material and nobody liked it there either, except for 0:14:14.076 --> 0:14:17.556 Jean Clark. Jean Clark came backstage and said, hey, I 0:14:17.596 --> 0:14:19.716 get what you're doing. I like the Beatles, I like 0:14:19.756 --> 0:14:21.996 folk music. Let's write some songs and see what happens. 0:14:22.516 --> 0:14:25.316 So we started writing songs every day in the front 0:14:25.356 --> 0:14:27.476 room of the Tributur, which was open all day and 0:14:27.516 --> 0:14:30.596 you could go there for free. And then Crosby came in. 0:14:30.876 --> 0:14:34.796 Now I had met David Crosby years earlier when I 0:14:34.876 --> 0:14:36.916 was with the Lime Lighters, and we played the Ashgrove. 0:14:37.316 --> 0:14:40.836 The night before the Lime Letter's engagement. At the Ashgrove, 0:14:40.996 --> 0:14:44.516 there was a play going on called Endgame by Samuel Beckett. 0:14:44.876 --> 0:14:46.996 There was a one act play with four characters and 0:14:47.076 --> 0:14:50.236 two of them were in garbage cans and they pop 0:14:50.316 --> 0:14:52.516 up and save their lions and pop back back down again, 0:14:52.916 --> 0:14:55.636 and this is years before Sesame Street got the end. 0:14:56.796 --> 0:14:58.876 I stuck around to the end of the play and 0:14:58.956 --> 0:15:01.196 I met the guy who had been in the garbage can, 0:15:01.236 --> 0:15:04.356 and it was a young actor named David Crosby, so 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:07.196 I met him. I think he was eighteen. I was 0:15:07.236 --> 0:15:10.196 seventeen by there. Maybe I was eighteen, but he was 0:15:10.356 --> 0:15:13.996 about a year older than me. And after the gig 0:15:14.356 --> 0:15:15.876 with the Lime Lighters, I wanted to go up to 0:15:15.916 --> 0:15:18.956 San Francisco, so David took me up to Santa Barbara, 0:15:18.956 --> 0:15:21.556 which was his boyhood home, and I stayed there overnight 0:15:21.556 --> 0:15:24.076 and his mother me and his lamb and avocado sandwiches 0:15:24.076 --> 0:15:26.236 and they were delicious. And then I went up to 0:15:26.276 --> 0:15:28.476 San Francisco and that's where I got a call from 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:30.996 the Chad Mitchell Trio to fly to New York and 0:15:31.036 --> 0:15:33.716 work with them. So that's when I was in the village. 0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:36.596 I was living in New York around that time, this 0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:40.156 is nineteen sixty maybe the end of nineteen sixty, sixty 0:15:40.196 --> 0:15:45.116 one sixty two, and then I traveled extensively with the 0:15:45.196 --> 0:15:48.116 Chad Mitchell Trio. Didn't really have a home base. I 0:15:48.156 --> 0:15:50.956 had this apartment with Mike settle, but I didn't really 0:15:50.996 --> 0:15:51.756 spend any time. 0:15:51.796 --> 0:15:54.916 There was John Denver yet in the Chad Mitchell trio 0:15:54.916 --> 0:15:56.796 when you were part of it, or he was after. 0:15:56.916 --> 0:16:00.436 No, John Denver was a replacement for Chad Mitchell, who 0:16:01.716 --> 0:16:05.116 either left the trio to become a solo artist or 0:16:06.116 --> 0:16:08.636 I know he got busted for a large amount of 0:16:08.676 --> 0:16:12.476 marijuana over the Mexican border and I think he did 0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:15.876 some time for it. So the Mitchell Trio became the 0:16:15.956 --> 0:16:19.396 Mitchell Trio without Chad, and that's when they got John 0:16:19.436 --> 0:16:21.236 Denver to fill in for Chad. 0:16:21.436 --> 0:16:22.916 How did you connect with Bobby Darren? 0:16:23.756 --> 0:16:27.956 He was in the audience at the Crescendo Club when 0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:30.716 we were opening up the Chad Mitchell Trio was opening 0:16:30.756 --> 0:16:34.116 up for Lenny Bruce and Bobby came backstage after the 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:36.836 Chad Mitchell set and said, Hey, I liked what you 0:16:36.836 --> 0:16:39.036 were doing up there. I'm thinking about putting a folk 0:16:39.076 --> 0:16:41.436 segment in my act and i'd like to hire you. 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:43.356 I said, well, I've already got a job with a 0:16:43.596 --> 0:16:45.276 Chad Mitchell trio. And he said, yeah, what are they 0:16:45.356 --> 0:16:47.636 paying you? I told him, and he said I'll double it. 0:16:47.876 --> 0:16:50.236 I said, okay. I was getting ready to move on. 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:53.716 I'd been hanging out with some people from the New 0:16:53.916 --> 0:16:56.676 Christie Minstrels and I thought about jumping ship with them. 0:16:56.716 --> 0:16:59.156 Bobby said, no, man, if you do that, you just 0:16:59.156 --> 0:17:01.076 get buried in a group that size. 0:17:01.436 --> 0:17:03.236 Did he ever talk to you about why he wanted 0:17:03.276 --> 0:17:07.636 to go from, let's say, a Sinatra esque singer to 0:17:07.716 --> 0:17:08.556 doing folk music. 0:17:09.356 --> 0:17:11.516 Well, I think he just appreciated it. I think he 0:17:11.716 --> 0:17:14.556 liked it. He was quite good at it. We didn't 0:17:14.556 --> 0:17:17.836 do just like Kingston Trio stuff. We did real prison songs. 0:17:17.996 --> 0:17:19.556 Makes a long time man feel bad? 0:17:20.076 --> 0:17:20.916 Yeah, that song? 0:17:21.636 --> 0:17:24.716 Yeah. And so he'd come out and do splish splash 0:17:24.756 --> 0:17:26.956 and his rock and roll hits for about fifteen minutes. 0:17:27.356 --> 0:17:30.076 He'd bring me on and I'd stand next to him 0:17:30.076 --> 0:17:33.316 and sing a harmony and play some folk songs with 0:17:33.396 --> 0:17:35.556 a twelve string, and then I was off for the 0:17:35.596 --> 0:17:36.916 rest of the night, and he'd go out and do 0:17:36.956 --> 0:17:39.236 his Sinatra stuff, Mac the Knife and all that. And 0:17:39.836 --> 0:17:41.836 this is fun because I used to on the strip 0:17:41.876 --> 0:17:43.596 in Vegas. I used to go up the strip and 0:17:43.676 --> 0:17:46.676 check out the other shows, and I remember I used 0:17:46.716 --> 0:17:49.076 to like Don Rickles, So I walked on the Don 0:17:49.156 --> 0:17:51.676 Rickles show one time, and he saw me coming in. 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:54.036 He said, hey, there's this kid here. He plays for 0:17:54.116 --> 0:17:56.476 Bobby Darren. He walks around Vegas going I'm a star, 0:17:56.596 --> 0:18:00.436 I'm a star. I said, Wow, Don Rickles knew who 0:18:00.476 --> 0:18:00.796 I was. 0:18:01.076 --> 0:18:04.636 That's amazing. I'm just thinking about the world that Bobby 0:18:04.716 --> 0:18:06.836 Darren was in, and just based on what you already said, 0:18:07.276 --> 0:18:09.756 he went from splitsh splash, which is how we knew 0:18:09.796 --> 0:18:12.876 of him, to the more Frank Sinatra style, which it 0:18:12.996 --> 0:18:15.796 was already a style shift. So I guess for him 0:18:16.276 --> 0:18:21.596 doing folk music, he was already a chameleon stylistically he was. 0:18:21.836 --> 0:18:24.316 He was a very talented guy. He could do a 0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:26.916 lot of stuff. He could tap dan and play the 0:18:26.996 --> 0:18:31.276 vibes and piano and guitar and do impressions. And it 0:18:31.396 --> 0:18:33.996 was kind of the old school of talent, where you know, 0:18:34.556 --> 0:18:38.556 suit press shoes shined in tune on time. It was 0:18:38.796 --> 0:18:41.836 like a discipline that rock and roll just threw out 0:18:41.876 --> 0:18:45.196 the window when I got into rock and roll bands. 0:18:45.236 --> 0:18:48.196 But working for Bobby was good experience. And I used 0:18:48.236 --> 0:18:50.316 to follow Bobby around and ask him stuff about how 0:18:50.356 --> 0:18:53.996 to make it in the business, and he said, well, 0:18:54.036 --> 0:18:55.996 you got to get up in front of audiences as 0:18:56.076 --> 0:18:57.876 much as you can, because it doesn't matter how good 0:18:57.916 --> 0:18:59.796 you are in your room. You got to test it 0:18:59.876 --> 0:19:02.836 under fire. And that was good advice. And then I 0:19:02.876 --> 0:19:05.556 mentioned that I wanted to do a movie. He said, well, 0:19:05.716 --> 0:19:07.716 I'm having a hard enough time getting myself in the 0:19:07.756 --> 0:19:11.676 movies around and see what I can do. So about 0:19:11.716 --> 0:19:14.436 a week later he came up with the script and 0:19:14.676 --> 0:19:17.716 he said, this is from Jackie Cooper. I said, okay. 0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:19.236 So I opened it up and it was about a 0:19:19.236 --> 0:19:22.116 banjo player. Said, oh, I'm a banjo player. I could 0:19:22.156 --> 0:19:24.316 do that. I turned to another patient. It was about 0:19:24.356 --> 0:19:28.196 a banjo player in petticoat junction. I said, oh, man, 0:19:28.996 --> 0:19:31.796 I don't think I could do this. Man, he said, well, 0:19:31.996 --> 0:19:34.156 you don't want to turn down Jackie Cooper because you'll 0:19:34.196 --> 0:19:37.836 never work in Hollywood. And you know what, I never have. 0:19:39.116 --> 0:19:39.956 It all worked out. 0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:41.916 It worked out great. 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:44.476 We're going to take a quick break and then come 0:19:44.516 --> 0:19:51.636 back with more from Rick Rubin and Roger mcgwen. We're 0:19:51.676 --> 0:19:54.396 back with more from Rick Rubin and Roger mcgwen. 0:19:55.316 --> 0:19:58.716 So it's interesting that you're in the village either playing 0:19:58.796 --> 0:20:03.636 folk songs or beatles songs. Everyone there playing cover songs. 0:20:04.356 --> 0:20:07.716 What was the impetus to start writing songs if you're 0:20:07.716 --> 0:20:11.076 coming out of a scene that's bas stun historic music. 0:20:11.956 --> 0:20:13.996 When did it become obvious we have to write our 0:20:14.036 --> 0:20:14.796 own songs. 0:20:15.156 --> 0:20:18.556 Yeah, the singer songwriter thing, well, well before that, I 0:20:18.596 --> 0:20:20.956 had a job with Bobby Darn and I worked at 0:20:20.996 --> 0:20:24.236 the Brill Building as a songwriter. So you know, that 0:20:24.396 --> 0:20:27.396 was the impetus for me to write songs. And I 0:20:27.436 --> 0:20:30.956 think what happened was the folks thing kind of just 0:20:31.036 --> 0:20:34.316 started to fade out. It was like the end of 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:37.636 it by sixty four, you know, starting to fade out, 0:20:37.796 --> 0:20:39.956 and people started writing more. So I don't know what 0:20:40.076 --> 0:20:42.876 made Joni Mitchell Bay Clouds or you know, I have 0:20:42.956 --> 0:20:46.636 no idea. Dylan was very inventive. At first he was 0:20:46.756 --> 0:20:49.356 doing kind of wood he got through imitation, and then 0:20:49.356 --> 0:20:52.636 he developed his own style. I remember I was friends 0:20:52.636 --> 0:20:55.956 with John and Michelle Phillips and I showed them some 0:20:55.996 --> 0:20:58.316 stuff I was doing it, you know, the Beatles' influence, 0:20:58.356 --> 0:21:01.076 and they said, oh, that's just bubblegum, that's kid stuff, 0:21:02.636 --> 0:21:05.196 and I said, well it's got something to it. 0:21:05.596 --> 0:21:08.116 Cool. Tell me about Jim Dixon. How did you come 0:21:08.116 --> 0:21:09.716 in contact with him. What was he like? 0:21:10.516 --> 0:21:15.396