1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:21,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin, I want to let you know that Rick has 2 00:00:21,596 --> 00:00:25,636 Speaker 1: a new podcast called Tetragrammaton. After about four to five 3 00:00:25,716 --> 00:00:28,636 Speaker 1: years of recording Broken Record, Rick decided he wanted to 4 00:00:28,636 --> 00:00:31,796 Speaker 1: talk to more than just musicians, so on his new podcast, 5 00:00:31,916 --> 00:00:37,716 Speaker 1: he'll be talking to actors, directors, wrestlers, business people, anyone 6 00:00:37,836 --> 00:00:40,916 Speaker 1: that Rick finds interesting. So make sure to subscribe to 7 00:00:40,956 --> 00:00:46,756 Speaker 1: Tetragrammatin wherever you listen to podcasts. Roger mcgwin is best 8 00:00:46,796 --> 00:00:50,636 Speaker 1: known as the driving force behind The Birds, a group 9 00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:54,236 Speaker 1: that fused folk in popular music in the sixties, but 10 00:00:54,356 --> 00:00:58,676 Speaker 1: mcgwinn is also a preservationist of traditional folk music. For 11 00:00:58,716 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: the past twenty seven years, he's been re recording traditional 12 00:01:01,756 --> 00:01:04,156 Speaker 1: folk songs and sharing them on a section of his 13 00:01:04,196 --> 00:01:08,196 Speaker 1: website called The Folk Den. On today's episode, Rick Rubin 14 00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:11,476 Speaker 1: talks to mcgwin about the Folk Den and about his 15 00:01:11,556 --> 00:01:14,476 Speaker 1: decades long career, which started in the early sixties in 16 00:01:14,516 --> 00:01:17,756 Speaker 1: Greenwich Village cafes, where he played alongside the likes of 17 00:01:17,836 --> 00:01:22,316 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and Richie Havens. Mcgwinn reminisces two about the 18 00:01:22,396 --> 00:01:25,556 Speaker 1: vibrant music scene in la and talks about meeting his 19 00:01:25,636 --> 00:01:29,676 Speaker 1: Bird's bandmate David Crosby for the first time Rip Cross. 20 00:01:30,316 --> 00:01:33,156 Speaker 1: You'll hear mcgwinn plays guitar throughout the interview and also 21 00:01:33,156 --> 00:01:36,436 Speaker 1: talk about how playing basketball with Bob Dylan helped inspired 22 00:01:36,556 --> 00:01:43,676 Speaker 1: Dylan's story tour The Rolling Thunder Review. This is broken 23 00:01:43,716 --> 00:01:45,996 Speaker 1: record liner notes for the digital age. 24 00:01:46,156 --> 00:01:47,076 Speaker 2: I'm justin Mitchman. 25 00:01:48,036 --> 00:01:49,996 Speaker 1: Here's Rick Rubin and Roger mcgwin. 26 00:01:51,156 --> 00:01:54,356 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Hey, Rick, how you doing cool Man? Tell 27 00:01:54,356 --> 00:01:56,796 Speaker 2: me about the folk den Back. 28 00:01:56,636 --> 00:02:00,236 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety five, I was listening to a Smithsonian 29 00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:04,916 Speaker 3: Folkways album of traditional music, and it struck me that 30 00:02:05,436 --> 00:02:09,116 Speaker 3: the new folk singers were not doing traditional songs anymore. There, 31 00:02:09,276 --> 00:02:13,196 Speaker 3: Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, they're writing their own songs, and 32 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:17,076 Speaker 3: they're great songs. But what happens if you know Pete 33 00:02:17,076 --> 00:02:20,636 Speaker 3: Siegert eyes or Odetta Dyes and they did. I looked 34 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:23,636 Speaker 3: at NPR's Top one hundred folk songs, and only eight 35 00:02:23,716 --> 00:02:26,716 Speaker 3: of them were traditional. The rest of them were, you know, 36 00:02:26,876 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 3: James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Eric Anderson, John Denver, I mean, 37 00:02:32,956 --> 00:02:37,316 Speaker 3: everybody but the hundreds of years old, like the child ballads, 38 00:02:37,356 --> 00:02:42,716 Speaker 3: the cowboys songs, the sea shanties, the prison songs, all 39 00:02:42,716 --> 00:02:45,476 Speaker 3: these songs were just neglected. They're just not being done. 40 00:02:45,676 --> 00:02:49,116 Speaker 3: I thought, man, what's going to happen? So I knew 41 00:02:48,916 --> 00:02:51,996 Speaker 3: how to record stuff on a computer. I learned that 42 00:02:52,036 --> 00:02:55,396 Speaker 3: back in the early nineties when Terry Munscher invited me 43 00:02:55,436 --> 00:02:58,196 Speaker 3: out to play on a Beach Boys album and it 44 00:02:58,356 --> 00:03:01,956 Speaker 3: was the first pro Tools session with It was a 45 00:03:02,036 --> 00:03:06,996 Speaker 3: Mac Quadra with twelve gigabytes of optical RAM and we 46 00:03:07,316 --> 00:03:08,996 Speaker 3: did a Beach Boys album. It turned out to be 47 00:03:08,996 --> 00:03:12,076 Speaker 3: the worst Beach Boys album in the world because he 48 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:15,196 Speaker 3: was using MIDI for the bass and drums and stuff. 49 00:03:15,796 --> 00:03:18,036 Speaker 3: But it was an eye opener for me that you 50 00:03:18,076 --> 00:03:21,476 Speaker 3: could record on a computer. Before that, everybody was like, 51 00:03:21,756 --> 00:03:24,356 Speaker 3: you know, four track, eight track, sixteen track, thirty two tracks, 52 00:03:24,396 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 3: sixty four tracks, and digital sixty four track. And then 53 00:03:29,516 --> 00:03:32,356 Speaker 3: pro Tools came out. This is like a beta copy 54 00:03:32,396 --> 00:03:36,156 Speaker 3: of pro Tools back in ninety one, and I, this 55 00:03:36,356 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 3: is great, man. I got to get this going. So 56 00:03:38,916 --> 00:03:42,716 Speaker 3: I came home and I got myself some recording software 57 00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:46,276 Speaker 3: and I started recording songs and putting them up on 58 00:03:46,316 --> 00:03:49,756 Speaker 3: my website in a section called the Folk Den to 59 00:03:50,156 --> 00:03:52,796 Speaker 3: preserve the songs, and I put a little story about 60 00:03:52,836 --> 00:03:55,716 Speaker 3: the song. The lyrics, the chords, and a little picture 61 00:03:56,156 --> 00:03:58,916 Speaker 3: like a coffee table book to kind of tie it 62 00:03:58,916 --> 00:04:01,836 Speaker 3: all together. And I've been doing that since November of 63 00:04:01,916 --> 00:04:06,396 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five, and to date it's the twenty seventh 64 00:04:06,436 --> 00:04:07,836 Speaker 3: anniversary of. 65 00:04:07,716 --> 00:04:12,756 Speaker 2: That unbelievable, so beautiful. I came to find folk then 66 00:04:12,956 --> 00:04:17,036 Speaker 2: probably when I think when the CD Treasures of the 67 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 2: Folk Then came out is when I got turned onto it. 68 00:04:20,676 --> 00:04:22,996 Speaker 2: And I got turned onto it because I was researching 69 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:26,236 Speaker 2: folk songs and it was so hard to find them. 70 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:29,236 Speaker 3: And exactly they were going away, They were being just 71 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:30,396 Speaker 3: swept under the rug. 72 00:04:30,996 --> 00:04:32,956 Speaker 2: Was it clear in the early days, like when you 73 00:04:32,996 --> 00:04:36,316 Speaker 2: first learned folk songs when you were a kid, was 74 00:04:36,356 --> 00:04:38,996 Speaker 2: it obvious that this was old music from another time? 75 00:04:39,356 --> 00:04:41,596 Speaker 2: Tell me about your relationship to folk music when you 76 00:04:41,636 --> 00:04:43,036 Speaker 2: first got into folk music. 77 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 3: Well, I first got into it. I was going to 78 00:04:46,476 --> 00:04:49,876 Speaker 3: high school in Chicago, and my music teacher invited Bob 79 00:04:49,916 --> 00:04:52,076 Speaker 3: Gibson to come over and play a forty five minute 80 00:04:52,116 --> 00:04:54,436 Speaker 3: set on the five string banjo, and he did all 81 00:04:54,476 --> 00:04:57,956 Speaker 3: this fancy picking and telling stories about the songs, and 82 00:04:57,996 --> 00:05:00,236 Speaker 3: I just loved it. Before that, I'd been to Elvis 83 00:05:00,276 --> 00:05:05,156 Speaker 3: and Geane Vincent Carl Perkins, Rockabilly, Tiny Cash, the Everly Brothers. 84 00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:09,676 Speaker 3: But when Gibson did that, it made me run up 85 00:05:09,716 --> 00:05:11,716 Speaker 3: to my music teacher and ask what kind of music 86 00:05:11,796 --> 00:05:14,636 Speaker 3: is that? And she said it's folk music and I said, wow, 87 00:05:14,916 --> 00:05:16,956 Speaker 3: you know I heard Burr Lives. He didn't sound like 88 00:05:16,956 --> 00:05:19,636 Speaker 3: like that. So she pointed me over to a new 89 00:05:19,676 --> 00:05:22,156 Speaker 3: school that had just opened up in nineteen fifty seven 90 00:05:22,156 --> 00:05:24,676 Speaker 3: in Chicago called the Old Town School of Folk Music. 91 00:05:25,436 --> 00:05:28,236 Speaker 3: I went over there and Frank Hamilton sat me down 92 00:05:28,316 --> 00:05:30,796 Speaker 3: and said, play me something you know, and I played 93 00:05:30,956 --> 00:05:33,396 Speaker 3: a rockabilly song and he went uh huh. And then 94 00:05:33,436 --> 00:05:34,916 Speaker 3: he said, you know how to play the circle of 95 00:05:34,956 --> 00:05:40,956 Speaker 3: fifths and he went like. I said, no, I didn't 96 00:05:40,956 --> 00:05:43,276 Speaker 3: know how to do that. He said, well, you know 97 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:48,516 Speaker 3: how to play the blues. I said no, I didn't 98 00:05:48,556 --> 00:05:50,076 Speaker 3: know how to do that either. I said, well what 99 00:05:50,116 --> 00:05:58,636 Speaker 3: about fingerpicking? I said, okay, I got a lot to learn. 100 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:01,436 Speaker 3: So I started going to the Old Town School two 101 00:06:01,476 --> 00:06:03,316 Speaker 3: days a week and I did that for three years 102 00:06:03,476 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 3: until Frank finally Frank Hamilton finally said, I really can't 103 00:06:07,356 --> 00:06:09,956 Speaker 3: teach you anything more in this format. You know, you 104 00:06:09,996 --> 00:06:13,236 Speaker 3: could have some private lessons for twelve dollars an hour. Well, 105 00:06:13,276 --> 00:06:16,116 Speaker 3: I didn't have the twelve dollars an hour, so that 106 00:06:16,236 --> 00:06:18,076 Speaker 3: was it. I kind of quit going to the Old 107 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:21,836 Speaker 3: Town School. But shortly after that, I went down to 108 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:24,236 Speaker 3: the Gate of Horn after a coffeehouse gig, and I 109 00:06:24,276 --> 00:06:27,676 Speaker 3: had my banjo and guitar and hardshell cases, and I 110 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:29,156 Speaker 3: was real proud of them because I looked like a 111 00:06:29,196 --> 00:06:33,036 Speaker 3: professional musician. And I walked to the Lime Lighters and 112 00:06:33,156 --> 00:06:36,076 Speaker 3: Theodore Riquel were sitting around the bar. So I walked 113 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:38,836 Speaker 3: into the bar and this jam session was going on, 114 00:06:38,876 --> 00:06:41,756 Speaker 3: and Alex Hasselev from the Limelighter said, what you got there, kid? 115 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:44,756 Speaker 3: I said, I got a banjo and a guitar, and 116 00:06:45,036 --> 00:06:46,996 Speaker 3: he said, great, break out the banjo. We got too 117 00:06:46,996 --> 00:06:49,476 Speaker 3: many guitars going. So I did, and I played with 118 00:06:49,516 --> 00:06:51,916 Speaker 3: them till five o'clock in the morning, and that's when 119 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:54,676 Speaker 3: that's when they hired me. They hired me to be 120 00:06:54,716 --> 00:06:58,196 Speaker 3: a backup musician for them. But I said, well, I 121 00:06:58,236 --> 00:07:02,396 Speaker 3: can't start right now because I'm still going to high school. 122 00:07:02,796 --> 00:07:05,636 Speaker 3: And so they sent me a letter and my parents 123 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:07,916 Speaker 3: had to sign it because I was under eighteen, and 124 00:07:07,956 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 3: they sent me a plane ticket in June and flew 125 00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 3: me out to la and I recorded with them at 126 00:07:13,676 --> 00:07:17,796 Speaker 3: the Ashgrove a record called Tonight in Person, and that 127 00:07:17,956 --> 00:07:20,636 Speaker 3: was the beginning of my professional musical career. 128 00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 2: How old were you at that time? 129 00:07:22,596 --> 00:07:24,516 Speaker 3: I was seventeen when I went out there. I turned 130 00:07:24,516 --> 00:07:25,796 Speaker 3: eighteen at the Ashgrove. 131 00:07:26,076 --> 00:07:29,516 Speaker 2: Amazing. But you started as a rock fan and then 132 00:07:29,556 --> 00:07:31,556 Speaker 2: you fell in love with folk? Is that how it happened? 133 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:36,396 Speaker 3: Yeah? I got into Elvis when I was fourteen. I 134 00:07:36,436 --> 00:07:39,036 Speaker 3: had a transistor radio, which was a new thing at 135 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 3: the time, and it meant you could listen to what 136 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:43,276 Speaker 3: you wanted to listen to on the radio instead of 137 00:07:43,316 --> 00:07:45,636 Speaker 3: a big wooden box in the living room. And I 138 00:07:45,716 --> 00:07:48,996 Speaker 3: used to ride my bike around Chicago and listen to WJJAD, 139 00:07:49,156 --> 00:07:53,116 Speaker 3: which was a rock station, and I heard like a. 140 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:56,116 Speaker 4: Well, it's my beloved new place to twelve. 141 00:07:56,876 --> 00:07:59,156 Speaker 3: I went, Wow, that's really cool. And I had no 142 00:07:59,236 --> 00:08:02,916 Speaker 3: idea that he was combining country music and blues and 143 00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:07,476 Speaker 3: you know, he was doing a synthesis of different styles 144 00:08:07,676 --> 00:08:09,876 Speaker 3: because he'd grown up with that all around him. 145 00:08:10,356 --> 00:08:13,436 Speaker 2: Do you think that's what makes all great new forms 146 00:08:13,436 --> 00:08:16,436 Speaker 2: of music are synthesis of other forms of music that 147 00:08:16,516 --> 00:08:17,996 Speaker 2: come together to create something new. 148 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:21,396 Speaker 3: I do, I really do. Yeah, And that's what happened 149 00:08:21,396 --> 00:08:25,276 Speaker 3: when we combined the Beatles and Bob Dylan and people went, wow, 150 00:08:25,316 --> 00:08:28,156 Speaker 3: that's that's different. I mean, they say, okay, well, Eric 151 00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 3: Eric Burdon had done The House of New Orleans, which 152 00:08:31,796 --> 00:08:34,276 Speaker 3: was a blues a folk song, and he did that 153 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:37,796 Speaker 3: before mister Tambrieman. But somehow mister tam Brienman was a 154 00:08:37,836 --> 00:08:40,916 Speaker 3: little different. It was more of a legato kind of thing, 155 00:08:41,956 --> 00:08:45,756 Speaker 3: a flowing melody, and the lyrics were out of this world. 156 00:08:45,796 --> 00:08:47,836 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, take me for a trip on 157 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:50,716 Speaker 3: your magic swirling schip. All my senses have been stripped. 158 00:08:50,716 --> 00:08:53,116 Speaker 3: My hands can't field the grip. I tosed two number 159 00:08:53,156 --> 00:08:55,756 Speaker 3: a step wait only from my boot heels to be wandering. 160 00:08:55,876 --> 00:08:59,436 Speaker 3: I went, wow, this is so cool and I fell 161 00:08:59,476 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 3: in love with Dylan's writing at that point. 162 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 2: Was that the first Bob Dylan song you ever heard? No. 163 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:06,956 Speaker 3: I was in the village hanging out in the early 164 00:09:07,036 --> 00:09:09,996 Speaker 3: sixties when Bob got there. I was hanging out at 165 00:09:10,036 --> 00:09:12,756 Speaker 3: Gertie Folks City and I saw Bob play there and 166 00:09:12,956 --> 00:09:15,396 Speaker 3: he was mostly doing Woody Guthrie stuff at that point. 167 00:09:15,436 --> 00:09:18,756 Speaker 3: He had one time though. I was over at the 168 00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:24,036 Speaker 3: White Horse Tavern and Theodore Bikel came running over. He'd 169 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:26,756 Speaker 3: been in I guess the Gaslight cafe and he said, 170 00:09:26,756 --> 00:09:28,916 Speaker 3: I just heard this marvelous song. It was blowing in 171 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:32,116 Speaker 3: the wind and he played it you, so yeah, I'd 172 00:09:32,156 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 3: heard Dylan's stuff before the Birds. 173 00:09:35,036 --> 00:09:37,876 Speaker 2: Was it obvious when you decided to do a cover 174 00:09:37,996 --> 00:09:40,676 Speaker 2: song in the Birds of a Dylan song? Was it 175 00:09:40,716 --> 00:09:43,756 Speaker 2: obvious that Tambourine Man would be the first one? How 176 00:09:43,796 --> 00:09:45,516 Speaker 2: did it happen that you picked that song if you 177 00:09:45,556 --> 00:09:46,196 Speaker 2: knew the others? 178 00:09:47,196 --> 00:09:50,116 Speaker 3: We didn't really pick it. Jim Dixon was our manager 179 00:09:50,156 --> 00:09:54,396 Speaker 3: and he was a producer engineer at World Pacific Records 180 00:09:54,396 --> 00:09:58,276 Speaker 3: in LA and he had an advanced copy of Dylan's 181 00:09:58,316 --> 00:10:00,996 Speaker 3: Mister Tambrie Men, which was something like a. 182 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 4: Listed ham. 183 00:10:05,876 --> 00:10:08,156 Speaker 3: And he thought it was a great song. I guess 184 00:10:08,276 --> 00:10:12,796 Speaker 3: lyrically the tune, and he was kind of shopping it 185 00:10:12,836 --> 00:10:16,676 Speaker 3: around different people. I think some of the guys who 186 00:10:16,676 --> 00:10:20,516 Speaker 3: were blue dress guys back in La heard it first, 187 00:10:21,276 --> 00:10:24,596 Speaker 3: and he played it for us. It was five minutes 188 00:10:24,596 --> 00:10:27,716 Speaker 3: four and a half minute demo with Bob and Ramblin, 189 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:30,436 Speaker 3: Jack Elliott and Ramblin was just kind of out there 190 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:32,716 Speaker 3: and singing out a tune. So that's why he didn't 191 00:10:32,756 --> 00:10:34,876 Speaker 3: release it, because Bob never liked to go back and 192 00:10:34,916 --> 00:10:38,116 Speaker 3: fix stuff, you know, it's like very like to get 193 00:10:38,116 --> 00:10:41,956 Speaker 3: the impromptu thing, whatever happened when you recorded it. So 194 00:10:42,356 --> 00:10:45,636 Speaker 3: we had this demo and they played it for us 195 00:10:45,636 --> 00:10:48,236 Speaker 3: and Crosby said, I don't like it, man, that folky 196 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:50,476 Speaker 3: two four time. It's never going to play on the radio. 197 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 3: And he was right because radio wouldn't play anything over 198 00:10:53,836 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 3: like two and a half minutes, and they're playing rock 199 00:10:56,196 --> 00:10:58,236 Speaker 3: and roll four to four beat instead of two four. 200 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:01,956 Speaker 3: So I rearranged it. I'd been an arranger I worked 201 00:11:01,956 --> 00:11:04,356 Speaker 3: with I was a studio guy in New York and 202 00:11:04,396 --> 00:11:07,516 Speaker 3: I worked with Chudy Collins and some other people. So 203 00:11:07,796 --> 00:11:15,316 Speaker 3: I rearranged it with the and it changed the whole 204 00:11:15,356 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 3: thing a million percent. 205 00:11:17,276 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 2: I mean, it's the it's the signature musical sound of 206 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:25,796 Speaker 2: the song, and it created a whole new genre. It's amazing. 207 00:11:26,476 --> 00:11:28,596 Speaker 2: You talked about so many interesting things, and I want 208 00:11:28,636 --> 00:11:31,556 Speaker 2: to hear about all of them. So let's talk about 209 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:34,556 Speaker 2: the village folk scene when you were there. What was 210 00:11:34,596 --> 00:11:37,876 Speaker 2: that world like? First? How long were we therefore? Who 211 00:11:37,876 --> 00:11:42,156 Speaker 2: were the other artists around. Tell me everything about it, okay. 212 00:11:42,196 --> 00:11:45,556 Speaker 3: Well, after the Limelighter's gig, I got a Sideman gig 213 00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:49,196 Speaker 3: with the Chad Mitchell trio and I actually moved to 214 00:11:49,236 --> 00:11:52,036 Speaker 3: New York and lived on I had an apartment with 215 00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:55,676 Speaker 3: Mike Settle on Fourteenth Street. This is early sixties, I 216 00:11:55,716 --> 00:11:58,556 Speaker 3: guess sixties sixty one, sixty two, sixty three round there, 217 00:11:58,956 --> 00:12:03,116 Speaker 3: and the village was very vibrant with folk music. At 218 00:12:03,156 --> 00:12:06,716 Speaker 3: the Gaslight Cafe, Dave van Rock was there and other 219 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:10,476 Speaker 3: artists and Bob would be around played Gerty's Folks City. 220 00:12:11,076 --> 00:12:13,796 Speaker 3: I used to watch all the acts at Cisco Houston 221 00:12:13,836 --> 00:12:17,916 Speaker 3: and all the guys that played Folk City, and I'd 222 00:12:17,996 --> 00:12:20,676 Speaker 3: go to like the other coffee houses, the Cafe one. 223 00:12:21,476 --> 00:12:24,876 Speaker 3: But I got a gig at the Cafe Playhouse. It 224 00:12:24,996 --> 00:12:27,756 Speaker 3: was on McDougall Street and it was one of the 225 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:32,156 Speaker 3: pass ahead around kind of place, and I remember Richie 226 00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:35,996 Speaker 3: Havens was there at the time. John Sebastian and Peter 227 00:12:36,156 --> 00:12:40,076 Speaker 3: Tork was playing banjo at that point, and I remember 228 00:12:40,076 --> 00:12:42,796 Speaker 3: Sebastian saying, you don't want to follow Richie Havens because 229 00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:45,156 Speaker 3: if you passed, they had after Richie, there's no money left, 230 00:12:46,556 --> 00:12:49,436 Speaker 3: that's all gone. So there was a vibrant folk scene. 231 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:52,836 Speaker 3: I remember Freddie Neil there hanging out and all kinds 232 00:12:52,836 --> 00:12:54,156 Speaker 3: of folk singers. 233 00:12:53,836 --> 00:12:58,356 Speaker 2: Around, and the majority of them were playing traditional folk songs. 234 00:12:59,276 --> 00:13:05,876 Speaker 3: Yes, they're playing acoustic traditional songs. And then the Beatles 235 00:13:05,876 --> 00:13:07,876 Speaker 3: came out while I was still living in New York 236 00:13:08,276 --> 00:13:10,556 Speaker 3: and I heard the Beatles and I went, wow, they 237 00:13:10,556 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 3: were using folk music chord changes. I thought, wow, the 238 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:18,796 Speaker 3: million folk songs had that, and it gave me the 239 00:13:18,836 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 3: idea of combining folk music and rock and roll. And 240 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:25,836 Speaker 3: I started doing some Beatles songs at the Cafe Playhouse 241 00:13:25,836 --> 00:13:28,476 Speaker 3: and people going, what's he doing? Man? It's like you know, 242 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:32,316 Speaker 3: but one clue I think. I was on the Bleaker 243 00:13:32,356 --> 00:13:34,836 Speaker 3: Street and there were a couple of promoters that I'd 244 00:13:34,836 --> 00:13:37,236 Speaker 3: seen around and they pointed to me and said, what 245 00:13:37,276 --> 00:13:39,556 Speaker 3: we need is four of him, and I went, oh, 246 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:41,636 Speaker 3: I think I'm onto something amazing. 247 00:13:41,716 --> 00:13:43,356 Speaker 2: And then when did you decide to put the band 248 00:13:43,396 --> 00:13:45,476 Speaker 2: together or did you decide or did it just happen? 249 00:13:46,196 --> 00:13:49,716 Speaker 3: It happened. So I was playing these Beatleaf kind of 250 00:13:49,756 --> 00:13:53,276 Speaker 3: songs at the Cafe Playhouse and people weren't going for it. 251 00:13:53,636 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 3: But the promoter liked it. He put a sign outside 252 00:13:55,716 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 3: that said Beatle impersonation, and the tourist buses were coming around, 253 00:14:00,756 --> 00:14:03,116 Speaker 3: and I thought, this is embarrassing. I want to get 254 00:14:03,116 --> 00:14:05,316 Speaker 3: out of New York. So I flew out to la 255 00:14:05,396 --> 00:14:07,756 Speaker 3: and I got a gig at the Troubadour opening up 256 00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:10,476 Speaker 3: for Hoyd Accident, and I was doing the same kind 257 00:14:10,476 --> 00:14:13,596 Speaker 3: of material and nobody liked it there either, except for 258 00:14:14,076 --> 00:14:17,556 Speaker 3: Jean Clark. Jean Clark came backstage and said, hey, I 259 00:14:17,596 --> 00:14:19,716 Speaker 3: get what you're doing. I like the Beatles, I like 260 00:14:19,756 --> 00:14:21,996 Speaker 3: folk music. Let's write some songs and see what happens. 261 00:14:22,516 --> 00:14:25,316 Speaker 3: So we started writing songs every day in the front 262 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:27,476 Speaker 3: room of the Tributur, which was open all day and 263 00:14:27,516 --> 00:14:30,596 Speaker 3: you could go there for free. And then Crosby came in. 264 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:34,796 Speaker 3: Now I had met David Crosby years earlier when I 265 00:14:34,876 --> 00:14:36,916 Speaker 3: was with the Lime Lighters, and we played the Ashgrove. 266 00:14:37,316 --> 00:14:40,836 Speaker 3: The night before the Lime Letter's engagement. At the Ashgrove, 267 00:14:40,996 --> 00:14:44,516 Speaker 3: there was a play going on called Endgame by Samuel Beckett. 268 00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 3: There was a one act play with four characters and 269 00:14:47,076 --> 00:14:50,236 Speaker 3: two of them were in garbage cans and they pop 270 00:14:50,316 --> 00:14:52,516 Speaker 3: up and save their lions and pop back back down again, 271 00:14:52,916 --> 00:14:55,636 Speaker 3: and this is years before Sesame Street got the end. 272 00:14:56,796 --> 00:14:58,876 Speaker 3: I stuck around to the end of the play and 273 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:01,196 Speaker 3: I met the guy who had been in the garbage can, 274 00:15:01,236 --> 00:15:04,356 Speaker 3: and it was a young actor named David Crosby, so 275 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:07,196 Speaker 3: I met him. I think he was eighteen. I was 276 00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:10,196 Speaker 3: seventeen by there. Maybe I was eighteen, but he was 277 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:13,996 Speaker 3: about a year older than me. And after the gig 278 00:15:14,356 --> 00:15:15,876 Speaker 3: with the Lime Lighters, I wanted to go up to 279 00:15:15,916 --> 00:15:18,956 Speaker 3: San Francisco, so David took me up to Santa Barbara, 280 00:15:18,956 --> 00:15:21,556 Speaker 3: which was his boyhood home, and I stayed there overnight 281 00:15:21,556 --> 00:15:24,076 Speaker 3: and his mother me and his lamb and avocado sandwiches 282 00:15:24,076 --> 00:15:26,236 Speaker 3: and they were delicious. And then I went up to 283 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:28,476 Speaker 3: San Francisco and that's where I got a call from 284 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:30,996 Speaker 3: the Chad Mitchell Trio to fly to New York and 285 00:15:31,036 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 3: work with them. So that's when I was in the village. 286 00:15:33,716 --> 00:15:36,596 Speaker 3: I was living in New York around that time, this 287 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 3: is nineteen sixty maybe the end of nineteen sixty, sixty 288 00:15:40,196 --> 00:15:45,116 Speaker 3: one sixty two, and then I traveled extensively with the 289 00:15:45,196 --> 00:15:48,116 Speaker 3: Chad Mitchell Trio. Didn't really have a home base. I 290 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:50,956 Speaker 3: had this apartment with Mike settle, but I didn't really 291 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:51,756 Speaker 3: spend any time. 292 00:15:51,796 --> 00:15:54,916 Speaker 2: There was John Denver yet in the Chad Mitchell trio 293 00:15:54,916 --> 00:15:56,796 Speaker 2: when you were part of it, or he was after. 294 00:15:56,916 --> 00:16:00,436 Speaker 3: No, John Denver was a replacement for Chad Mitchell, who 295 00:16:01,716 --> 00:16:05,116 Speaker 3: either left the trio to become a solo artist or 296 00:16:06,116 --> 00:16:08,636 Speaker 3: I know he got busted for a large amount of 297 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:12,476 Speaker 3: marijuana over the Mexican border and I think he did 298 00:16:12,516 --> 00:16:15,876 Speaker 3: some time for it. So the Mitchell Trio became the 299 00:16:15,956 --> 00:16:19,396 Speaker 3: Mitchell Trio without Chad, and that's when they got John 300 00:16:19,436 --> 00:16:21,236 Speaker 3: Denver to fill in for Chad. 301 00:16:21,436 --> 00:16:22,916 Speaker 2: How did you connect with Bobby Darren? 302 00:16:23,756 --> 00:16:27,956 Speaker 3: He was in the audience at the Crescendo Club when 303 00:16:27,996 --> 00:16:30,716 Speaker 3: we were opening up the Chad Mitchell Trio was opening 304 00:16:30,756 --> 00:16:34,116 Speaker 3: up for Lenny Bruce and Bobby came backstage after the 305 00:16:34,236 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 3: Chad Mitchell set and said, Hey, I liked what you 306 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:39,036 Speaker 3: were doing up there. I'm thinking about putting a folk 307 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 3: segment in my act and i'd like to hire you. 308 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:43,356 Speaker 3: I said, well, I've already got a job with a 309 00:16:43,596 --> 00:16:45,276 Speaker 3: Chad Mitchell trio. And he said, yeah, what are they 310 00:16:45,356 --> 00:16:47,636 Speaker 3: paying you? I told him, and he said I'll double it. 311 00:16:47,876 --> 00:16:50,236 Speaker 3: I said, okay. I was getting ready to move on. 312 00:16:50,396 --> 00:16:53,716 Speaker 3: I'd been hanging out with some people from the New 313 00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:56,676 Speaker 3: Christie Minstrels and I thought about jumping ship with them. 314 00:16:56,716 --> 00:16:59,156 Speaker 3: Bobby said, no, man, if you do that, you just 315 00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:01,076 Speaker 3: get buried in a group that size. 316 00:17:01,436 --> 00:17:03,236 Speaker 2: Did he ever talk to you about why he wanted 317 00:17:03,276 --> 00:17:07,636 Speaker 2: to go from, let's say, a Sinatra esque singer to 318 00:17:07,716 --> 00:17:08,556 Speaker 2: doing folk music. 319 00:17:09,356 --> 00:17:11,516 Speaker 3: Well, I think he just appreciated it. I think he 320 00:17:11,716 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 3: liked it. He was quite good at it. We didn't 321 00:17:14,556 --> 00:17:17,836 Speaker 3: do just like Kingston Trio stuff. We did real prison songs. 322 00:17:17,996 --> 00:17:19,556 Speaker 3: Makes a long time man feel bad? 323 00:17:20,076 --> 00:17:20,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, that song? 324 00:17:21,636 --> 00:17:24,716 Speaker 3: Yeah. And so he'd come out and do splish splash 325 00:17:24,756 --> 00:17:26,956 Speaker 3: and his rock and roll hits for about fifteen minutes. 326 00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:30,076 Speaker 3: He'd bring me on and I'd stand next to him 327 00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 3: and sing a harmony and play some folk songs with 328 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:35,556 Speaker 3: a twelve string, and then I was off for the 329 00:17:35,596 --> 00:17:36,916 Speaker 3: rest of the night, and he'd go out and do 330 00:17:36,956 --> 00:17:39,236 Speaker 3: his Sinatra stuff, Mac the Knife and all that. And 331 00:17:39,836 --> 00:17:41,836 Speaker 3: this is fun because I used to on the strip 332 00:17:41,876 --> 00:17:43,596 Speaker 3: in Vegas. I used to go up the strip and 333 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:46,676 Speaker 3: check out the other shows, and I remember I used 334 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:49,076 Speaker 3: to like Don Rickles, So I walked on the Don 335 00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:51,676 Speaker 3: Rickles show one time, and he saw me coming in. 336 00:17:51,796 --> 00:17:54,036 Speaker 3: He said, hey, there's this kid here. He plays for 337 00:17:54,116 --> 00:17:56,476 Speaker 3: Bobby Darren. He walks around Vegas going I'm a star, 338 00:17:56,596 --> 00:18:00,436 Speaker 3: I'm a star. I said, Wow, Don Rickles knew who 339 00:18:00,476 --> 00:18:00,796 Speaker 3: I was. 340 00:18:01,076 --> 00:18:04,636 Speaker 2: That's amazing. I'm just thinking about the world that Bobby 341 00:18:04,716 --> 00:18:06,836 Speaker 2: Darren was in, and just based on what you already said, 342 00:18:07,276 --> 00:18:09,756 Speaker 2: he went from splitsh splash, which is how we knew 343 00:18:09,796 --> 00:18:12,876 Speaker 2: of him, to the more Frank Sinatra style, which it 344 00:18:12,996 --> 00:18:15,796 Speaker 2: was already a style shift. So I guess for him 345 00:18:16,276 --> 00:18:21,596 Speaker 2: doing folk music, he was already a chameleon stylistically he was. 346 00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:24,316 Speaker 3: He was a very talented guy. He could do a 347 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:26,916 Speaker 3: lot of stuff. He could tap dan and play the 348 00:18:26,996 --> 00:18:31,276 Speaker 3: vibes and piano and guitar and do impressions. And it 349 00:18:31,396 --> 00:18:33,996 Speaker 3: was kind of the old school of talent, where you know, 350 00:18:34,556 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 3: suit press shoes shined in tune on time. It was 351 00:18:38,796 --> 00:18:41,836 Speaker 3: like a discipline that rock and roll just threw out 352 00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:45,196 Speaker 3: the window when I got into rock and roll bands. 353 00:18:45,236 --> 00:18:48,196 Speaker 3: But working for Bobby was good experience. And I used 354 00:18:48,236 --> 00:18:50,316 Speaker 3: to follow Bobby around and ask him stuff about how 355 00:18:50,356 --> 00:18:53,996 Speaker 3: to make it in the business, and he said, well, 356 00:18:54,036 --> 00:18:55,996 Speaker 3: you got to get up in front of audiences as 357 00:18:56,076 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 3: much as you can, because it doesn't matter how good 358 00:18:57,916 --> 00:18:59,796 Speaker 3: you are in your room. You got to test it 359 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:02,836 Speaker 3: under fire. And that was good advice. And then I 360 00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:05,556 Speaker 3: mentioned that I wanted to do a movie. He said, well, 361 00:19:05,716 --> 00:19:07,716 Speaker 3: I'm having a hard enough time getting myself in the 362 00:19:07,756 --> 00:19:11,676 Speaker 3: movies around and see what I can do. So about 363 00:19:11,716 --> 00:19:14,436 Speaker 3: a week later he came up with the script and 364 00:19:14,676 --> 00:19:17,716 Speaker 3: he said, this is from Jackie Cooper. I said, okay. 365 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:19,236 Speaker 3: So I opened it up and it was about a 366 00:19:19,236 --> 00:19:22,116 Speaker 3: banjo player. Said, oh, I'm a banjo player. I could 367 00:19:22,156 --> 00:19:24,316 Speaker 3: do that. I turned to another patient. It was about 368 00:19:24,356 --> 00:19:28,196 Speaker 3: a banjo player in petticoat junction. I said, oh, man, 369 00:19:28,996 --> 00:19:31,796 Speaker 3: I don't think I could do this. Man, he said, well, 370 00:19:31,996 --> 00:19:34,156 Speaker 3: you don't want to turn down Jackie Cooper because you'll 371 00:19:34,196 --> 00:19:37,836 Speaker 3: never work in Hollywood. And you know what, I never have. 372 00:19:39,116 --> 00:19:39,956 Speaker 2: It all worked out. 373 00:19:40,716 --> 00:19:41,916 Speaker 3: It worked out great. 374 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:44,476 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and then come 375 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:51,636 Speaker 1: back with more from Rick Rubin and Roger mcgwen. We're 376 00:19:51,676 --> 00:19:54,396 Speaker 1: back with more from Rick Rubin and Roger mcgwen. 377 00:19:55,316 --> 00:19:58,716 Speaker 2: So it's interesting that you're in the village either playing 378 00:19:58,796 --> 00:20:03,636 Speaker 2: folk songs or beatles songs. Everyone there playing cover songs. 379 00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:07,716 Speaker 2: What was the impetus to start writing songs if you're 380 00:20:07,716 --> 00:20:11,076 Speaker 2: coming out of a scene that's bas stun historic music. 381 00:20:11,956 --> 00:20:13,996 Speaker 2: When did it become obvious we have to write our 382 00:20:14,036 --> 00:20:14,796 Speaker 2: own songs. 383 00:20:15,156 --> 00:20:18,556 Speaker 3: Yeah, the singer songwriter thing, well, well before that, I 384 00:20:18,596 --> 00:20:20,956 Speaker 3: had a job with Bobby Darn and I worked at 385 00:20:20,996 --> 00:20:24,236 Speaker 3: the Brill Building as a songwriter. So you know, that 386 00:20:24,396 --> 00:20:27,396 Speaker 3: was the impetus for me to write songs. And I 387 00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:30,956 Speaker 3: think what happened was the folks thing kind of just 388 00:20:31,036 --> 00:20:34,316 Speaker 3: started to fade out. It was like the end of 389 00:20:34,356 --> 00:20:37,636 Speaker 3: it by sixty four, you know, starting to fade out, 390 00:20:37,796 --> 00:20:39,956 Speaker 3: and people started writing more. So I don't know what 391 00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 3: made Joni Mitchell Bay Clouds or you know, I have 392 00:20:42,956 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 3: no idea. Dylan was very inventive. At first he was 393 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 3: doing kind of wood he got through imitation, and then 394 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:52,636 Speaker 3: he developed his own style. I remember I was friends 395 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:55,956 Speaker 3: with John and Michelle Phillips and I showed them some 396 00:20:55,996 --> 00:20:58,316 Speaker 3: stuff I was doing it, you know, the Beatles' influence, 397 00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 3: and they said, oh, that's just bubblegum, that's kid stuff, 398 00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:05,196 Speaker 3: and I said, well it's got something to it. 399 00:21:05,596 --> 00:21:08,116 Speaker 2: Cool. Tell me about Jim Dixon. How did you come 400 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 2: in contact with him. What was he like? 401 00:21:10,516 --> 00:21:15,396 Speaker 3: Okay, I first met Jim back in nineteen sixty three 402 00:21:15,516 --> 00:21:19,356 Speaker 3: and he was hanging around the Troubadour and Ashgrove and all. 403 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:22,396 Speaker 3: He was going around kind of scouting talent because he 404 00:21:22,436 --> 00:21:26,436 Speaker 3: was a producer and he knew David Crosby. He had 405 00:21:26,516 --> 00:21:30,916 Speaker 3: already recorded David and he was looking around for different ideas. 406 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:34,236 Speaker 3: And I remember when Gene Clark and I started writing 407 00:21:34,236 --> 00:21:37,276 Speaker 3: songs at the Troubadour, David Crosby came in and started 408 00:21:37,316 --> 00:21:39,556 Speaker 3: singing harmony with us, and he said, I want to 409 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 3: be in your band. And I said, well, we don't 410 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:43,716 Speaker 3: really have a band here, David, we're just kind of 411 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:46,316 Speaker 3: writing some songs. He said, oh, come on, man, if 412 00:21:46,316 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 3: I can be in your band, I know this guy's 413 00:21:47,996 --> 00:21:50,996 Speaker 3: got a recordings today we could use for free. I said, 414 00:21:50,996 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 3: you're in. That's how we met Jim Dixon cool, and 415 00:21:55,836 --> 00:21:58,036 Speaker 3: he took us under his wing. He was still working 416 00:21:58,036 --> 00:22:02,276 Speaker 3: at World Pacific. He'd recorded Lord Buckley there and he 417 00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:05,676 Speaker 3: knew some jazz guys and he let us work out 418 00:22:05,676 --> 00:22:08,596 Speaker 3: on the machines after all the sessions were over, and 419 00:22:08,636 --> 00:22:11,716 Speaker 3: that's where we kind of honed our skill as a 420 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:18,036 Speaker 3: singing playing band in n I guess sixty four or 421 00:22:18,196 --> 00:22:22,156 Speaker 3: sixty four by then. So we started working out at 422 00:22:22,196 --> 00:22:25,356 Speaker 3: the studio and became a parent that we needed more 423 00:22:25,436 --> 00:22:28,756 Speaker 3: musicians and more instruments. So we went to see the 424 00:22:28,796 --> 00:22:31,516 Speaker 3: Beatles movie A Hard Day's Night and took notes on 425 00:22:31,916 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 3: Ringo had Ludwig drums, and Harrison had a gretch guitar. 426 00:22:36,076 --> 00:22:39,556 Speaker 3: John Lennon had a Rickenbacker, Paul McCartney at a Hoffner bass, 427 00:22:39,796 --> 00:22:43,756 Speaker 3: a violin style bass, and then George Harrison came back 428 00:22:43,796 --> 00:22:46,956 Speaker 3: out with another Rickenbacker. It looked like a six string 429 00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:49,076 Speaker 3: from the front, but when he ch oed it sideway 430 00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:51,236 Speaker 3: so you could see six other tuning pegs sticking out 431 00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:53,516 Speaker 3: the back, and I went, oh, man, that's an electric 432 00:22:53,516 --> 00:22:55,476 Speaker 3: twelve string. I got to get one of those, because 433 00:22:55,516 --> 00:22:58,516 Speaker 3: I was already a twelve string player on acoustic twelve 434 00:22:59,636 --> 00:23:02,756 Speaker 3: and we traded in. So I traded in a five 435 00:23:02,756 --> 00:23:06,796 Speaker 3: string banjo and a Gibson acoustic twelve that Bobby Darren 436 00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:10,276 Speaker 3: had given me, and got the Rickenbacker, and that became 437 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 3: my main instrument for the rest of the Birds. 438 00:23:13,156 --> 00:23:16,476 Speaker 2: Was the electric twelve string and new instrument at the time. 439 00:23:16,596 --> 00:23:19,716 Speaker 3: Yes, it was. It was a brand new invention. George 440 00:23:19,756 --> 00:23:22,716 Speaker 3: had the very second one ever made. First one went 441 00:23:22,756 --> 00:23:26,356 Speaker 3: to a woman called Susie who played in Las Vegas 442 00:23:26,356 --> 00:23:29,956 Speaker 3: and some sort of girl band, and George had the 443 00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:33,556 Speaker 3: second one. Well, when Rickenbacker learned the Beatles were playing 444 00:23:33,596 --> 00:23:37,596 Speaker 3: one of their instruments, FC. Hall, John Hall's father, flew 445 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:40,716 Speaker 3: to New York, had a meeting with the Beatles and 446 00:23:40,796 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 3: gave George Harrison. Well, it was actually intended for John Lennon, 447 00:23:44,516 --> 00:23:46,796 Speaker 3: but John was out and George had the flu and 448 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 3: he was hanging around the hotel, so they gave him 449 00:23:49,196 --> 00:23:53,076 Speaker 3: the twelve string and it became his kind of toy. 450 00:23:53,676 --> 00:23:55,676 Speaker 3: He played it really well, and he did this cool 451 00:23:55,756 --> 00:23:57,876 Speaker 3: thing that I learned from him. He did this thing 452 00:23:58,036 --> 00:24:02,396 Speaker 3: on see the Achard strings. He used to play leads 453 00:24:02,476 --> 00:24:08,116 Speaker 3: up and down the Jeeves string pair like had a 454 00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:11,876 Speaker 3: lot of punch, much more than if you just want 455 00:24:11,876 --> 00:24:16,476 Speaker 3: the you know. So I learned that trick from him. 456 00:24:16,796 --> 00:24:18,836 Speaker 2: Did you incorporate that into any songwriting? 457 00:24:19,516 --> 00:24:22,156 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well it was in quite a few songs. 458 00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:24,596 Speaker 3: The way I played lead on say Turn, Turn Turn 459 00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:26,916 Speaker 3: and so on. I got out the riffs from other 460 00:24:27,036 --> 00:24:33,796 Speaker 3: musicians like the Seekers and the searchers. You know, I 461 00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:39,156 Speaker 3: stole whatever I could, but the Ricken Rocker had this 462 00:24:39,236 --> 00:24:42,796 Speaker 3: really great sound. And then Ray Gerhard was the studio 463 00:24:42,836 --> 00:24:47,476 Speaker 3: engineer at Columbia Records in la and he put I 464 00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:51,076 Speaker 3: think it was two now I'm not sure the designation 465 00:24:51,276 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 3: la uas it was a tube compressor, and he put 466 00:24:56,396 --> 00:24:59,156 Speaker 3: the Rickenbacker into one and then out of the back 467 00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:02,076 Speaker 3: of the one into another. So I had double compression 468 00:25:02,116 --> 00:25:04,956 Speaker 3: on it, and it clamped it down and made it 469 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:09,396 Speaker 3: sustain more like a wind instrument because the original the 470 00:25:09,476 --> 00:25:13,116 Speaker 3: Rickenbacker would fall off rather quickly. It was kind of 471 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:17,876 Speaker 3: a thuddy sounding instrument. So that's really what made the 472 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:21,356 Speaker 3: twelve stringth sounds so distinctive on mister Tambriene Man and 473 00:25:21,636 --> 00:25:23,276 Speaker 3: Turn Turn, Turn eight miles high. 474 00:25:23,316 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 2: So do you think without the compression, was it more 475 00:25:25,556 --> 00:25:27,076 Speaker 2: like a harpsichord? Would you say? 476 00:25:28,116 --> 00:25:28,396 Speaker 4: No? 477 00:25:28,916 --> 00:25:32,556 Speaker 3: It sounded okay, but it didn't sustain as well. It 478 00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 3: wasn't as good for lead work. It was okay for recording, 479 00:25:36,316 --> 00:25:39,196 Speaker 3: for strumming and so on, but it wasn't really a 480 00:25:39,236 --> 00:25:40,956 Speaker 3: good lead instrument at that point. 481 00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:44,636 Speaker 2: How did you find the other members to make the birds? 482 00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:45,116 Speaker 2: The Birds? 483 00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:48,796 Speaker 3: Geene Clark and I started writing songs. David Crosby came 484 00:25:48,836 --> 00:25:50,716 Speaker 3: along and turned his son to Jim Dixon, and we 485 00:25:50,796 --> 00:25:54,556 Speaker 3: got a free studio to work out you and Dixon 486 00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:57,316 Speaker 3: recommended we get a drummer and a bass player, and 487 00:25:57,916 --> 00:26:00,156 Speaker 3: we saw Michael Clark walk in front of the tributary. 488 00:26:00,156 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 3: It looked like two of the Rolling Stones, and we 489 00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:04,156 Speaker 3: got him mostly on looks. 490 00:26:05,036 --> 00:26:09,116 Speaker 2: This is like nineteen sixty five, nineteen sixty six, sixty four, 491 00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:13,116 Speaker 2: sixty four, Wow, incredible. 492 00:26:12,756 --> 00:26:16,036 Speaker 3: Sixty four into sixty five. We recorded Mister Tamburin Man 493 00:26:16,356 --> 00:26:20,236 Speaker 3: in January of sixty five, and Columbia didn't release it 494 00:26:20,396 --> 00:26:24,396 Speaker 3: until I think June or May or sometime. They sat 495 00:26:24,436 --> 00:26:26,356 Speaker 3: on it for a long time. I like to tell 496 00:26:26,356 --> 00:26:30,156 Speaker 3: a story, but Columbia was very conservative. They had Steve 497 00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:34,356 Speaker 3: Lawrence and ediegur May and Doris Stay. They didn't have 498 00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 3: any rock and roll, and their attitude toward rock and 499 00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 3: roll was they thought it might be distasteful, you know, 500 00:26:40,676 --> 00:26:43,556 Speaker 3: like the Mob not wanting to sell heroin. But there 501 00:26:43,596 --> 00:26:45,916 Speaker 3: was a lot of money in it. 502 00:26:45,956 --> 00:26:49,156 Speaker 2: Was Mister tambrien Man the first rock record that came 503 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:51,316 Speaker 2: out on Columbia. I think it might have been it 504 00:26:51,436 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 2: might have been. 505 00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:55,436 Speaker 3: Certainly was something they weren't really into it yet, you know, 506 00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:58,996 Speaker 3: they were kind of lagging behind the other labels RCA 507 00:26:59,716 --> 00:27:00,756 Speaker 3: and Capital. 508 00:27:00,956 --> 00:27:03,836 Speaker 2: But in some ways, wasn't the world lagging behind? Like 509 00:27:04,316 --> 00:27:06,876 Speaker 2: was it yet the popular form of music or was 510 00:27:06,876 --> 00:27:09,596 Speaker 2: it still sort of underground or well? 511 00:27:09,916 --> 00:27:12,876 Speaker 3: No, no, rock and roll was a craze and people 512 00:27:13,116 --> 00:27:16,356 Speaker 3: kept hoping it would go away quickly because it was 513 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:18,476 Speaker 3: creating juvenile delinquents. 514 00:27:19,636 --> 00:27:20,436 Speaker 2: That was the story. 515 00:27:21,156 --> 00:27:23,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a story and so but RCIA had 516 00:27:23,636 --> 00:27:28,236 Speaker 3: Albus back in what was fifty six, so it had 517 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:30,436 Speaker 3: been around a while. And then we had Chuck Berry, 518 00:27:30,436 --> 00:27:33,876 Speaker 3: and we had Geene Vincent, Carl Perkins and Everly Brothers 519 00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:36,676 Speaker 3: and Johnny Cash. There was quite a bit of rock 520 00:27:36,716 --> 00:27:37,596 Speaker 3: and roll out there. 521 00:27:38,156 --> 00:27:41,396 Speaker 2: All of those artists, though, have more of a country 522 00:27:41,396 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 2: flavor in their rock. It's all coming from the South 523 00:27:44,476 --> 00:27:47,036 Speaker 2: and it's more like an extension of the Sun record sound, 524 00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:50,636 Speaker 2: which yeah, it was rockabilly, yeah, more rockabilly than rock 525 00:27:50,676 --> 00:27:53,316 Speaker 2: and roll. And it seemed like, I guess Little Richard 526 00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:55,716 Speaker 2: might have been more rock and roll, and Chuck Berry 527 00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:56,636 Speaker 2: was rock and roll. 528 00:27:57,676 --> 00:28:00,596 Speaker 3: Well. Billy Hally and the comments are credited with starting 529 00:28:00,636 --> 00:28:04,196 Speaker 3: the craze, and they were kind of like a holiday 530 00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:08,196 Speaker 3: in band. You know, they weren't really rocking or rolling. 531 00:28:08,596 --> 00:28:12,996 Speaker 3: Geane Vince that really rocked, so did Elvis and Carl Perkins. 532 00:28:13,156 --> 00:28:15,316 Speaker 2: The places you'd be playing in, those like Cero's in 533 00:28:15,356 --> 00:28:18,676 Speaker 2: those days, would hold fifty people, one hundred, two hundred people. 534 00:28:18,676 --> 00:28:20,196 Speaker 2: How many people would you say, I'm. 535 00:28:20,036 --> 00:28:22,716 Speaker 3: Not sure of the capacity of Cerro's. It might have 536 00:28:22,756 --> 00:28:25,076 Speaker 3: been one hundred, might have been one fifty. It was 537 00:28:25,356 --> 00:28:29,076 Speaker 3: all these like sort of plush booths with tables. It 538 00:28:29,156 --> 00:28:31,356 Speaker 3: was almost like a casino. 539 00:28:31,436 --> 00:28:31,636 Speaker 4: Yeah. 540 00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:33,076 Speaker 2: I was going to say, like Las Vegas. 541 00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:36,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, like Vegas. Yeah, there's something like that. It was 542 00:28:36,276 --> 00:28:39,236 Speaker 3: old hat had been popular in the forties with all 543 00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:43,076 Speaker 3: the movie stars, and then it lost its appeal. But 544 00:28:43,196 --> 00:28:46,556 Speaker 3: when the birds got there, we started attracting Jack Nicholson 545 00:28:46,676 --> 00:28:51,196 Speaker 3: and Peter Fonda and Marlon Brando, and then we had 546 00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 3: this group of dancers, Vito and his gang, and they 547 00:28:55,316 --> 00:28:59,356 Speaker 3: were wild. They were just you know, they and they 548 00:28:59,356 --> 00:29:02,596 Speaker 3: were just a scene by themselves, and so the whole 549 00:29:02,596 --> 00:29:05,556 Speaker 3: thing really changed Hollywood a little bit. 550 00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:09,396 Speaker 2: How did you meet Vito Pelicis? Yes, yeah, how did 551 00:29:09,436 --> 00:29:09,916 Speaker 2: you meet him? 552 00:29:10,396 --> 00:29:14,356 Speaker 3: I don't remember, I remember going to a studio and 553 00:29:14,676 --> 00:29:18,836 Speaker 3: take an acid. That's all I remember. I don't know 554 00:29:18,836 --> 00:29:21,516 Speaker 3: how we got hooked up with him, but they became 555 00:29:21,876 --> 00:29:24,436 Speaker 3: our dancing troupe, and they even went with us on 556 00:29:24,476 --> 00:29:26,516 Speaker 3: the road on our first tour, and they took him 557 00:29:26,516 --> 00:29:30,476 Speaker 3: on a bus tour to Indiana and you know, Michigan 558 00:29:30,596 --> 00:29:33,876 Speaker 3: and places where people were freaking out. They've never seen anything, 559 00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 3: never seen anything like it. 560 00:29:35,876 --> 00:29:38,676 Speaker 2: No, did they dance on the stage or in the audience? 561 00:29:39,236 --> 00:29:41,316 Speaker 3: In the audience cool? In front of the. 562 00:29:41,276 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 2: Stage, amazing, But did they face the band or did 563 00:29:46,156 --> 00:29:48,476 Speaker 2: they face the audience? Like, did it feel like they 564 00:29:48,476 --> 00:29:49,436 Speaker 2: were part of the show. 565 00:29:50,516 --> 00:29:52,836 Speaker 3: They were totally No, they weren't facing anybody. They were 566 00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:55,556 Speaker 3: totally absorbed in what they were doing. There just you know, 567 00:29:55,716 --> 00:29:57,156 Speaker 3: they're just doing it. 568 00:29:57,196 --> 00:30:00,116 Speaker 2: So it was like a traveling dance party that happened 569 00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:01,876 Speaker 2: between you and the audience. 570 00:30:02,756 --> 00:30:04,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's wow. 571 00:30:04,836 --> 00:30:07,036 Speaker 2: It's some wild to imagine, you know. 572 00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was wold. The audience like teenagers, they're pretty square, 573 00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:15,756 Speaker 3: you know, they're like preppy looking, most of them. And 574 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:20,356 Speaker 3: there may be thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year olds and they're 575 00:30:20,396 --> 00:30:24,676 Speaker 3: just looking on in amazement at this whole spectacle. We 576 00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:28,716 Speaker 3: did get screams. We got screaming fans at one point. 577 00:30:29,796 --> 00:30:31,756 Speaker 2: How long did it take for the audience to go 578 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:35,276 Speaker 2: from square fans to starting looking like more like people 579 00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:36,716 Speaker 2: who could have been in bands. 580 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:40,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I remember I used to wear those little glasses. 581 00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:42,676 Speaker 3: I remember looking out in the audience and there'd be 582 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:45,396 Speaker 3: people with those little glasses on. So I was starting 583 00:30:45,396 --> 00:30:48,356 Speaker 3: to catch on. Maybe not more than a few months. 584 00:30:49,156 --> 00:30:52,956 Speaker 2: How's your relationship to music changed from the early days 585 00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:53,356 Speaker 2: to now. 586 00:30:54,196 --> 00:30:58,916 Speaker 3: Well, it's a labor of love. I do shows. I 587 00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:01,036 Speaker 3: still do shows, and I do like a one man show. 588 00:31:01,076 --> 00:31:03,276 Speaker 3: It's like a play that has a lot of these 589 00:31:03,276 --> 00:31:06,436 Speaker 3: stories I'm telling you, and I fold in the songs 590 00:31:06,476 --> 00:31:10,476 Speaker 3: that go with the stories. I changed it up. It's 591 00:31:10,476 --> 00:31:14,156 Speaker 3: not always the same. Got about We got all these modules, 592 00:31:14,596 --> 00:31:19,316 Speaker 3: can put in different modules of stories and songs, and 593 00:31:19,356 --> 00:31:22,516 Speaker 3: my wife and I just hit the road together. It's 594 00:31:22,556 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 3: the idea I got from rambling Jack Elliott when I 595 00:31:25,756 --> 00:31:30,236 Speaker 3: was on the Rolling Thunder review and Ramblin said, yeah, 596 00:31:30,396 --> 00:31:32,356 Speaker 3: one of the most fun things I ever did was 597 00:31:32,676 --> 00:31:34,476 Speaker 3: throw the guitar in the back of the land Rover 598 00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:37,076 Speaker 3: and me and Polly. That was as why hit the road. 599 00:31:37,116 --> 00:31:39,116 Speaker 3: And we did all these little gigs and it was 600 00:31:39,156 --> 00:31:41,156 Speaker 3: so much fun. And I've been in a band with 601 00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:45,316 Speaker 3: you know. I had instrument cases and trucks and a 602 00:31:45,356 --> 00:31:50,836 Speaker 3: lot of logistics and people to deal with, and I thought, man, 603 00:31:50,876 --> 00:31:52,796 Speaker 3: this would be more fun. So I started doing that, 604 00:31:53,236 --> 00:31:56,636 Speaker 3: and then gradually it became kind of a scripted one 605 00:31:56,676 --> 00:31:57,236 Speaker 3: man play. 606 00:31:57,956 --> 00:32:00,316 Speaker 2: It sounds great. Tell me about Rolling Thunder. What was 607 00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:01,116 Speaker 2: that experience? Like? 608 00:32:01,796 --> 00:32:04,996 Speaker 3: Rolling Thunder was great? It started off with Bob used 609 00:32:04,996 --> 00:32:07,676 Speaker 3: to come over to my house in Malibu and he 610 00:32:07,796 --> 00:32:11,116 Speaker 3: noticed a basketball hoop over the garage and he said, 611 00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:14,436 Speaker 3: you have a basketball. I said no, because when I 612 00:32:14,476 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 3: was fifteen, I jammed my finger on a basketball and 613 00:32:17,196 --> 00:32:19,996 Speaker 3: I couldn't black guitar for a few weeks. But I 614 00:32:19,996 --> 00:32:21,916 Speaker 3: bought a basketball the next day and I called up 615 00:32:21,916 --> 00:32:24,676 Speaker 3: his house and he was out, but I got Sarah 616 00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:26,756 Speaker 3: and I said, well, tell Bob I got a basketball. 617 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:30,316 Speaker 3: She said, oh, he'll be thrilled. So Bob came over 618 00:32:30,396 --> 00:32:32,796 Speaker 3: the next day and we're shooting baskets in the backyard. 619 00:32:33,356 --> 00:32:36,036 Speaker 3: He said, I want to do something different and I said, wow, 620 00:32:36,196 --> 00:32:38,636 Speaker 3: what do you mean? He said, I don't know, something 621 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:41,876 Speaker 3: like a circus. Okay. So a couple of weeks later, 622 00:32:42,516 --> 00:32:44,356 Speaker 3: I was on the road with a band and I 623 00:32:44,356 --> 00:32:46,276 Speaker 3: had some time off and I went to the village, 624 00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:50,196 Speaker 3: went to Gerty's Folk City, and I ran into Larry Sloman, 625 00:32:50,236 --> 00:32:53,116 Speaker 3: who at the time was a reporter for Rolling Stone magazine. 626 00:32:53,516 --> 00:32:56,196 Speaker 3: And Larry said, I think Dylan's over at the Other 627 00:32:56,316 --> 00:32:58,076 Speaker 3: End or the Bitter End what it was called me. 628 00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:00,596 Speaker 3: So I said, let's go see. So we went over 629 00:33:00,636 --> 00:33:03,516 Speaker 3: there and walked in the back room and there was 630 00:33:03,556 --> 00:33:06,796 Speaker 3: Shock Levy, my writing partner, and Bob Dylan sitting at 631 00:33:06,796 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 3: a table with a couple of brandies. And I walked 632 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:12,156 Speaker 3: and they sit up and the brandy's went flying. They said, Roger, 633 00:33:12,196 --> 00:33:14,356 Speaker 3: we're just talking about you. We're putting this tour together. 634 00:33:14,636 --> 00:33:17,156 Speaker 3: We'd like you to go on it. So I had 635 00:33:17,156 --> 00:33:19,116 Speaker 3: a band and I was on tour myself, but I 636 00:33:19,236 --> 00:33:22,036 Speaker 3: postponed those states and went on Rolling Thunder, and it 637 00:33:22,116 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 3: was all Bob's friends from the village. You know. It's 638 00:33:24,836 --> 00:33:28,756 Speaker 3: Bobby NewART and Ramblin, Jack Elliott and Allen Ginsburg and 639 00:33:28,916 --> 00:33:32,036 Speaker 3: Joan Bias came along, Joni Mitchell, and we'd pick up 640 00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:35,956 Speaker 3: people like Willie Nelson in Texas and Gordon Lightfoot in 641 00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:39,716 Speaker 3: Toronto and Leonard Cohne in Montreal. You know, it was 642 00:33:39,756 --> 00:33:42,356 Speaker 3: an amazing, amazing tour, about one hundred people on the 643 00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:46,996 Speaker 3: road in buses and cars, and it was like a parade, 644 00:33:47,116 --> 00:33:49,556 Speaker 3: and it was like a circus. It was like a circus, 645 00:33:49,636 --> 00:33:53,116 Speaker 3: and it wasn't exactly like this Corsese film portraits that. 646 00:33:53,436 --> 00:33:54,836 Speaker 3: I think it was even more fun than that. 647 00:33:55,196 --> 00:33:57,676 Speaker 2: I bet it sounds incredible, And the recordings from that 648 00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:02,076 Speaker 2: era are some of my favorite of his, Like his 649 00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:05,316 Speaker 2: might sounds great, his singing is great, The song sounds 650 00:34:05,356 --> 00:34:06,076 Speaker 2: so good. 651 00:34:06,636 --> 00:34:08,516 Speaker 3: He was really on his game at that point. And 652 00:34:08,676 --> 00:34:10,476 Speaker 3: some of my favorite songs are the ones he wrote 653 00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:12,916 Speaker 3: with Shaq Levy for Desire Agreed. 654 00:34:13,476 --> 00:34:15,956 Speaker 2: Tell me about subud Okay. 655 00:34:15,716 --> 00:34:18,676 Speaker 3: Well, when I was in the village, I was hanging 656 00:34:18,716 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 3: out with Bob Carey, who had been in a group 657 00:34:21,756 --> 00:34:26,036 Speaker 3: called the Terriers with Eric Darling and Ellen Arkin. And 658 00:34:26,436 --> 00:34:29,316 Speaker 3: there was this mine Lionel Shepherd, and we're walking around 659 00:34:29,396 --> 00:34:32,076 Speaker 3: and Bob and I are are sharing a joint and 660 00:34:32,396 --> 00:34:34,676 Speaker 3: I offered it to Lionel and he said, now I 661 00:34:34,716 --> 00:34:37,956 Speaker 3: got something better. I said, was that? He said, it's 662 00:34:37,956 --> 00:34:40,836 Speaker 3: called subud I said, what is it? Something you put 663 00:34:40,876 --> 00:34:44,316 Speaker 3: in your coffee and drink it? Or he said, come 664 00:34:44,356 --> 00:34:47,396 Speaker 3: on down, you know, next Thursday and see what it is. 665 00:34:47,436 --> 00:34:50,476 Speaker 3: So I did, and it was this spiritual exercise. It 666 00:34:50,516 --> 00:34:53,356 Speaker 3: was kind of like the Holy Spirit, but it wasn't 667 00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:56,596 Speaker 3: Christian or anything. It was just you know, So I 668 00:34:56,636 --> 00:34:59,396 Speaker 3: got into it. It was something I did for a while. 669 00:34:59,716 --> 00:35:02,356 Speaker 2: I had a friend who was who was in Subu, 670 00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:06,316 Speaker 2: grew up in Subud and she followed Ramadan. 671 00:35:07,036 --> 00:35:10,276 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people were into is well. It 672 00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:14,396 Speaker 3: came out of Indonesia. So the head guy, Bob Pak 673 00:35:14,676 --> 00:35:18,316 Speaker 3: they called him, He was a Muslim, so it was 674 00:35:18,756 --> 00:35:22,596 Speaker 3: a kind of non verbal Islam. There was no doctrine 675 00:35:22,676 --> 00:35:24,476 Speaker 3: or anything. It was just you go in and do 676 00:35:24,556 --> 00:35:27,556 Speaker 3: these It's almost like a dance. You do a spiritual 677 00:35:27,956 --> 00:35:30,476 Speaker 3: dance and yeah, it's supposed to be good for your soul. 678 00:35:31,076 --> 00:35:32,596 Speaker 2: Yeah it's great. I didn't realize that there was a 679 00:35:32,596 --> 00:35:36,156 Speaker 2: physical component. Would you say that this was like TM, 680 00:35:36,756 --> 00:35:38,516 Speaker 2: like a spiritual fad of the time. 681 00:35:39,116 --> 00:35:41,356 Speaker 3: I think so, you know, I got out of it. 682 00:35:41,396 --> 00:35:44,196 Speaker 3: I didn't stay in it, and later I accepted Jesus, 683 00:35:44,436 --> 00:35:46,356 Speaker 3: so you know, that's all I needed. 684 00:35:46,716 --> 00:35:48,276 Speaker 2: And how did that happen. 685 00:35:48,796 --> 00:35:52,356 Speaker 3: It happened in seventy seven when Elvis Presley died and 686 00:35:53,276 --> 00:35:55,116 Speaker 3: he was seven years older than I was. I was 687 00:35:55,156 --> 00:36:00,396 Speaker 3: thirty five, and he was doing Quailud's and uppers and downers, 688 00:36:00,436 --> 00:36:03,956 Speaker 3: and I had a doctor in LA who'd give me 689 00:36:03,996 --> 00:36:07,116 Speaker 3: anything I wanted, and I was doing that too, plus 690 00:36:08,236 --> 00:36:10,756 Speaker 3: the illegal drug so I got my hands on. So 691 00:36:11,636 --> 00:36:14,436 Speaker 3: I thought, man, Elvis just died and he was seven 692 00:36:14,516 --> 00:36:17,076 Speaker 3: years older. If I only got seven years, I'd better 693 00:36:17,116 --> 00:36:20,556 Speaker 3: start cleaning up my act. And so I started working 694 00:36:20,596 --> 00:36:23,676 Speaker 3: on that, and in the process, that's when I ran 695 00:36:23,676 --> 00:36:26,196 Speaker 3: into this jazz guy named Billy, and he prayed with 696 00:36:26,236 --> 00:36:29,836 Speaker 3: me about Jesus and I accepted Jesus beautiful. 697 00:36:30,196 --> 00:36:34,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it changed your lifestyle to a healthy lifestyle, 698 00:36:35,076 --> 00:36:40,596 Speaker 2: and you have this spiritual connection right, speutiful inspiring. 699 00:36:40,516 --> 00:36:43,436 Speaker 3: And my wife and well, I turned my wife onto it. 700 00:36:43,636 --> 00:36:46,076 Speaker 3: I met her in an acting class. We were both 701 00:36:46,116 --> 00:36:48,196 Speaker 3: starting the same night, and we had to do method 702 00:36:48,516 --> 00:36:51,676 Speaker 3: acting and the assignment was to get her to do 703 00:36:51,716 --> 00:36:53,996 Speaker 3: something she didn't want to do. And I had talked 704 00:36:53,996 --> 00:36:55,796 Speaker 3: to her before and found out she'd been a Baptist 705 00:36:55,876 --> 00:36:57,316 Speaker 3: when she was a kid but got away from it. 706 00:36:57,636 --> 00:36:59,756 Speaker 3: So I knew something she didn't want to do, so 707 00:36:59,836 --> 00:37:05,876 Speaker 3: I started singing. They shun me since I through Jesus. 708 00:37:06,436 --> 00:37:09,956 Speaker 4: They see I'm listening World. 709 00:37:09,756 --> 00:37:12,516 Speaker 3: Of Fun and she's I said, what do you think 710 00:37:12,556 --> 00:37:15,796 Speaker 3: of that? She said, it sounds kind of country? I said, yeah, 711 00:37:15,796 --> 00:37:18,196 Speaker 3: what do you think of the words? She said, Oh, man, 712 00:37:18,596 --> 00:37:20,796 Speaker 3: you're trying to tell me about Jesus. And she stopped 713 00:37:20,796 --> 00:37:23,396 Speaker 3: off the stage and all the kids in the class 714 00:37:23,716 --> 00:37:26,236 Speaker 3: clapped and I said, wow, what was that. That sounded like, 715 00:37:26,356 --> 00:37:29,196 Speaker 3: you know, a real play. And then a couple of 716 00:37:29,196 --> 00:37:32,556 Speaker 3: weeks later she accepted Jesus. And now we've been together 717 00:37:32,636 --> 00:37:35,756 Speaker 3: for forty four years and we read the Bible every morning. 718 00:37:36,076 --> 00:37:39,516 Speaker 2: Beautiful, congratulations. Can you play that song for us? Now? 719 00:37:39,916 --> 00:37:50,116 Speaker 5: Let's see, Ah tell me I should away? 720 00:37:51,036 --> 00:37:55,476 Speaker 4: Did you say? I'm missing the whole World of Fun? 721 00:37:55,996 --> 00:37:57,516 Speaker 4: But I still love it? 722 00:37:58,356 --> 00:38:11,196 Speaker 6: Walking the creation line, Oh Blue, the friend he in 723 00:38:11,436 --> 00:38:14,556 Speaker 6: God's calm, bo is the friend? 724 00:38:15,676 --> 00:38:16,796 Speaker 4: What beautiful? 725 00:38:19,356 --> 00:38:33,436 Speaker 7: There is calm, pleasure and things are tune line the 726 00:38:33,596 --> 00:38:35,716 Speaker 7: creatu line. 727 00:38:39,796 --> 00:38:41,716 Speaker 2: That's beautiful. I never heard that song before. 728 00:38:42,436 --> 00:38:45,076 Speaker 3: Really, No, it's a Living Brothers song. It's a it's 729 00:38:45,076 --> 00:38:48,996 Speaker 3: a it's a written song. In the twentieth century. Not 730 00:38:48,796 --> 00:38:52,836 Speaker 3: a gospel song, but it's the Living Brothers did it. 731 00:38:52,836 --> 00:38:55,476 Speaker 2: It's beautiful. I would hearing that makes me want to 732 00:38:55,476 --> 00:38:58,556 Speaker 2: hear a whole album of you doing acoustic devotional material, 733 00:38:58,876 --> 00:39:02,516 Speaker 2: just just sharing that I could do that. That's what 734 00:39:02,556 --> 00:39:03,076 Speaker 2: I want to hear. 735 00:39:03,876 --> 00:39:06,196 Speaker 3: If you wanted to hear something else. The Kane bluesy said. 736 00:39:06,196 --> 00:39:09,436 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yes, So this is my favorite written. 737 00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:12,076 Speaker 2: My favorite of the folk den songs that I'm aware 738 00:39:12,156 --> 00:39:13,236 Speaker 2: of is this one. 739 00:39:13,316 --> 00:39:16,396 Speaker 3: That's interesting, that's interesting. The story goes, it's an old 740 00:39:16,396 --> 00:39:20,676 Speaker 3: prison song and I recorded it back when there was 741 00:39:20,716 --> 00:39:25,316 Speaker 3: a website called MP three dot com. Michael Robertson is 742 00:39:25,356 --> 00:39:28,636 Speaker 3: an entrepreneur. He put together this website and he would 743 00:39:28,676 --> 00:39:32,316 Speaker 3: take MP threes and make little CDs of him and 744 00:39:32,356 --> 00:39:34,436 Speaker 3: he give you fifty percent, which is unheard of in 745 00:39:34,476 --> 00:39:36,916 Speaker 3: the record business. So I signed up for that and 746 00:39:36,956 --> 00:39:39,636 Speaker 3: I did Kane Blues. First. It was called Ain't No 747 00:39:39,756 --> 00:39:43,796 Speaker 3: mo Cain on the Brazos and nobody was clicking on it. 748 00:39:44,076 --> 00:39:46,236 Speaker 3: I changed the title to Caine Blues and it shut 749 00:39:46,316 --> 00:39:47,436 Speaker 3: up the chart. 750 00:40:01,036 --> 00:40:02,316 Speaker 4: He no Moquin? 751 00:40:11,156 --> 00:40:14,076 Speaker 3: Pound it all into Eliza. 752 00:40:21,196 --> 00:40:24,516 Speaker 4: Well, what's the matter. Serping must be wrong? 753 00:40:26,276 --> 00:40:34,796 Speaker 3: Ooh, we're still here rolling in shorty George gun gon. 754 00:40:36,356 --> 00:40:51,636 Speaker 8: oOoOO down old, don't you rise no more? 755 00:40:46,396 --> 00:40:52,916 Speaker 4: O you ris anymore? 756 00:40:53,396 --> 00:40:54,836 Speaker 3: Ring judgment shall. 757 00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:05,276 Speaker 4: Look at my whole Hallo, she's a turning rest. 758 00:41:06,596 --> 00:41:06,796 Speaker 2: Oo. 759 00:41:11,636 --> 00:41:15,436 Speaker 3: Look at my eye partner, he's almost dead. 760 00:41:21,636 --> 00:41:25,516 Speaker 4: Then you should have been here fround nineteen four. 761 00:41:31,516 --> 00:41:42,556 Speaker 3: It was a dead man at every turn, Rome marking 762 00:41:42,876 --> 00:41:53,796 Speaker 3: all the surprizo round it all into alas. 763 00:42:02,836 --> 00:42:05,196 Speaker 2: I love that song. I love that song. 764 00:42:05,356 --> 00:42:08,156 Speaker 3: It's a cool song I heard from Bob Gibson. First time. 765 00:42:09,476 --> 00:42:11,836 Speaker 3: He did a little different. I think I changed the 766 00:42:11,956 --> 00:42:15,156 Speaker 3: chords on it, but I like the chord pattern. It's unusual, 767 00:42:15,316 --> 00:42:18,356 Speaker 3: and that it's uh, it's got a lot of pasting chords, 768 00:42:18,436 --> 00:42:24,636 Speaker 3: you know, and instead of just to see a minor 769 00:42:24,676 --> 00:42:26,356 Speaker 3: to D and then it goes to a B minor. 770 00:42:28,916 --> 00:42:31,596 Speaker 3: So it's got some interesting pasting chords it. 771 00:42:31,556 --> 00:42:34,836 Speaker 2: There's so much emotion in it. And and I've played this. 772 00:42:34,996 --> 00:42:38,916 Speaker 2: I've played that song for many artists that I work with, 773 00:42:39,276 --> 00:42:41,316 Speaker 2: just to talk about the amount of emotion that can 774 00:42:41,356 --> 00:42:43,636 Speaker 2: be held in a song, even when you don't necessarily 775 00:42:43,756 --> 00:42:47,276 Speaker 2: know what all the words are about. And it's what's 776 00:42:47,356 --> 00:42:50,276 Speaker 2: also interesting about it is it's so repetitive. You know, 777 00:42:50,436 --> 00:42:54,556 Speaker 2: it's it's a very simple structure that just keeps repeating. 778 00:42:55,756 --> 00:42:58,676 Speaker 2: There's no chorus or anything, but it doesn't it doesn't 779 00:42:58,676 --> 00:43:00,996 Speaker 2: get old, you know, it doesn't get old. That loop 780 00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:02,796 Speaker 2: can go on for a long time, and it does 781 00:43:02,836 --> 00:43:05,996 Speaker 2: feel like this, the emotion, and it just keeps getting 782 00:43:06,116 --> 00:43:09,796 Speaker 2: deeper and deeper with the story. It's beautiful, beautiful song. 783 00:43:09,876 --> 00:43:13,196 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, Old Hannah is the sun sunrise. 784 00:43:13,436 --> 00:43:14,116 Speaker 2: I didn't know that. 785 00:43:14,756 --> 00:43:17,596 Speaker 3: Uh huh, Old Hannah is the sun sunrising? 786 00:43:18,076 --> 00:43:20,836 Speaker 2: What did the other? Yeah, decode as much as you 787 00:43:20,876 --> 00:43:21,996 Speaker 2: can for me, it'd be grateful. 788 00:43:22,116 --> 00:43:24,436 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, no more cane on the broseet. It was 789 00:43:24,476 --> 00:43:27,316 Speaker 3: a sugar cane like a work farm for a prison, 790 00:43:27,956 --> 00:43:30,556 Speaker 3: and they cut all they came down and turned it 791 00:43:30,596 --> 00:43:32,356 Speaker 3: into molasses. Something. 792 00:43:32,516 --> 00:43:33,876 Speaker 2: Brazos is the river. 793 00:43:34,676 --> 00:43:38,716 Speaker 3: Brazos River, Yeah, down in Texas. Uh, what's the matter. 794 00:43:38,836 --> 00:43:43,596 Speaker 3: Something must be wrong. We're still rolling. That's being still 795 00:43:43,596 --> 00:43:47,356 Speaker 3: in prison. Shorty George done gone. He got out, Shorty 796 00:43:47,436 --> 00:43:50,596 Speaker 3: George got out somehow. What's something wrong? We're still here 797 00:43:50,636 --> 00:43:54,156 Speaker 3: and he's gone. Yeah, look at my old Hannah. She's 798 00:43:54,196 --> 00:43:58,676 Speaker 3: a turn in red. Who the sunrise or sunrise or 799 00:43:58,676 --> 00:44:00,996 Speaker 3: it could be sunset. Yeah, look at my partner, he's 800 00:44:01,036 --> 00:44:03,036 Speaker 3: almost dead. They just worked the people to death. There, 801 00:44:03,516 --> 00:44:05,996 Speaker 3: go down, old Hannah. Don't you rise no more? Okay, 802 00:44:05,996 --> 00:44:09,756 Speaker 3: that's the sunset. And if you rise anymore, your judgment, 803 00:44:09,836 --> 00:44:13,116 Speaker 3: Sure you're we're gonna get in trouble tomorrow, you know, 804 00:44:13,196 --> 00:44:15,756 Speaker 3: because we get in trouble every day. Yeah, yeah, every 805 00:44:15,836 --> 00:44:19,636 Speaker 3: day is trouble. Should have been here a bund nineteen four. 806 00:44:20,516 --> 00:44:22,916 Speaker 3: It's a dead man on every turn row. So people are, 807 00:44:22,956 --> 00:44:25,116 Speaker 3: you know, getting work to death. There was one that 808 00:44:25,156 --> 00:44:27,516 Speaker 3: should have been here in nineteen ten that work and 809 00:44:27,676 --> 00:44:30,956 Speaker 3: women just like the men. So it's a prison song 810 00:44:31,036 --> 00:44:35,836 Speaker 3: about harsh labor, intensive you know, work you to death 811 00:44:35,956 --> 00:44:36,556 Speaker 3: kind of stuff. 812 00:44:36,676 --> 00:44:39,676 Speaker 2: Wow, I had no idea it even was prison related. 813 00:44:39,836 --> 00:44:42,796 Speaker 2: You know, again, without knowing the context is nothing in 814 00:44:42,836 --> 00:44:45,156 Speaker 2: the lyric if you don't know what what it means. 815 00:44:45,556 --> 00:44:48,356 Speaker 2: It was clearly a sad song, and it was it 816 00:44:48,396 --> 00:44:50,556 Speaker 2: was clearly a work song, but I didn't understand that 817 00:44:50,596 --> 00:44:51,516 Speaker 2: it was a prison song. 818 00:44:52,156 --> 00:44:54,676 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the kind of thing that gets lost 819 00:44:54,996 --> 00:44:59,316 Speaker 3: with the singer songwriter genre. People aren't doing those old 820 00:44:59,316 --> 00:45:00,036 Speaker 3: songs anymore. 821 00:45:00,996 --> 00:45:03,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so thankful that you're that you're doing the 822 00:45:03,516 --> 00:45:05,876 Speaker 2: folk then, and that these songs live on and if 823 00:45:05,916 --> 00:45:08,436 Speaker 2: people want to hear them they go to the website. 824 00:45:08,516 --> 00:45:11,836 Speaker 3: Is that the best mcgwin dot com The Folk Done section. 825 00:45:12,636 --> 00:45:16,236 Speaker 1: Great, we have to pause for another quick break, but 826 00:45:16,316 --> 00:45:18,316 Speaker 1: we'll be back with the rest of Rick's conversation with 827 00:45:18,396 --> 00:45:25,556 Speaker 1: Roger mcgwin in just a sack. We're back with Rick 828 00:45:25,636 --> 00:45:27,036 Speaker 1: Rubin and Roger mcgwen. 829 00:45:27,956 --> 00:45:30,276 Speaker 2: How has recording changed over the course of your life? 830 00:45:30,316 --> 00:45:32,236 Speaker 2: So it started you said it was tape in the beginning, 831 00:45:32,276 --> 00:45:35,956 Speaker 2: but really more specifically technologically, from the early days of 832 00:45:35,996 --> 00:45:39,196 Speaker 2: recording until now, what are all the changes that you've seen. 833 00:45:40,076 --> 00:45:43,396 Speaker 3: The first recording I did was on an MPEx three 834 00:45:43,516 --> 00:45:46,596 Speaker 3: track three track, and that was we recorded beach Ball 835 00:45:46,636 --> 00:45:49,676 Speaker 3: on that Bobby Durna played drums and Frank Carey played 836 00:45:49,676 --> 00:45:52,516 Speaker 3: piano and I played guitar, and we all sang and 837 00:45:52,516 --> 00:45:54,796 Speaker 3: clapped her hands and we got a record deal on 838 00:45:54,876 --> 00:45:59,316 Speaker 3: Capitol called herself the City Surfers, and that was a 839 00:45:59,356 --> 00:46:02,196 Speaker 3: three track. He couldn't really overdub very well. And then 840 00:46:02,476 --> 00:46:04,116 Speaker 3: when I got in the Birds, they had a four 841 00:46:04,196 --> 00:46:07,116 Speaker 3: track at Columbia Studios in LA and they had an 842 00:46:07,116 --> 00:46:10,316 Speaker 3: eight track. Who was over against the wall and somebody 843 00:46:10,396 --> 00:46:13,396 Speaker 3: had written with a sharpie or you know, like felt 844 00:46:13,396 --> 00:46:17,236 Speaker 3: pent big bastard on this eight track, and they didn't 845 00:46:17,236 --> 00:46:19,756 Speaker 3: want to hook it up because it was too too new, 846 00:46:19,796 --> 00:46:22,956 Speaker 3: too much trouble. They finally did, they finally got the 847 00:46:22,956 --> 00:46:25,636 Speaker 3: A track going. But so I went from three track 848 00:46:25,676 --> 00:46:28,116 Speaker 3: to fod track, to eight track, to sixteen track to 849 00:46:28,356 --> 00:46:31,396 Speaker 3: thirty two tracks, sixty four track and digital. And then 850 00:46:31,436 --> 00:46:35,556 Speaker 3: I told you about the digital audio workstations and got 851 00:46:35,556 --> 00:46:38,676 Speaker 3: into couldn't afford Pro Tools when I first ran into 852 00:46:38,756 --> 00:46:42,756 Speaker 3: it, it was like ten thousand dollars for rudimentary set up. 853 00:46:43,316 --> 00:46:48,596 Speaker 3: So I got something called Digital Orchestrator Plus. It was 854 00:46:48,676 --> 00:46:51,076 Speaker 3: like a ninety dollars program and it did the same thing. 855 00:46:51,116 --> 00:46:55,436 Speaker 3: It recorded in forty four point waveforms, you know, sixteen bit. 856 00:46:56,196 --> 00:46:58,956 Speaker 3: It sounded pretty good. I recorded the Treasures from the 857 00:46:58,996 --> 00:47:03,196 Speaker 3: Folk on that system. And then gradually I got pro Tools, 858 00:47:03,236 --> 00:47:05,356 Speaker 3: and I've had pro Tools for years and years now, 859 00:47:05,876 --> 00:47:08,276 Speaker 3: and you know, I find it very easy to work 860 00:47:08,316 --> 00:47:11,756 Speaker 3: with and fun. I love being able to pop things 861 00:47:11,796 --> 00:47:13,676 Speaker 3: in and move them around like a word processor. 862 00:47:14,276 --> 00:47:17,116 Speaker 2: And I imagined the advantage of being able to record 863 00:47:17,156 --> 00:47:19,916 Speaker 2: at home versus in a big studio with all this 864 00:47:19,996 --> 00:47:22,916 Speaker 2: equipment is a good It's a good change in terms 865 00:47:22,916 --> 00:47:24,916 Speaker 2: of being able to make whatever you want, whenever you want. 866 00:47:25,556 --> 00:47:28,316 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean I tell kids, I say, you don't 867 00:47:28,356 --> 00:47:30,676 Speaker 3: need to go to a recording studio and spend thousands 868 00:47:30,676 --> 00:47:32,796 Speaker 3: of dollars. You can just get a Mac and pro 869 00:47:32,876 --> 00:47:35,556 Speaker 3: tools and do it at home. All you need is 870 00:47:35,596 --> 00:47:39,676 Speaker 3: a good microphone, maybe some editing skills. 871 00:47:39,916 --> 00:47:43,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, you said you went into the earliest version, the 872 00:47:43,356 --> 00:47:45,396 Speaker 2: three man version of The Birds. I don't know what 873 00:47:45,436 --> 00:47:47,716 Speaker 2: you were called at that time, into. 874 00:47:47,396 --> 00:47:49,876 Speaker 3: The jet set called the jet set the jet set. 875 00:47:50,156 --> 00:47:52,276 Speaker 2: Do you remember what you recorded in that first session 876 00:47:52,276 --> 00:47:54,156 Speaker 2: when you decided we need more players. 877 00:47:54,516 --> 00:47:56,236 Speaker 3: I think it was some stuff that Geene Clark and 878 00:47:56,236 --> 00:47:59,436 Speaker 3: I had written, like the Only Girl that I Adore 879 00:47:59,636 --> 00:48:03,756 Speaker 3: or whatever you showed me, which the Turtles later picked up. 880 00:48:03,916 --> 00:48:05,876 Speaker 3: Was one of the songs that Sheen and I wrote, 881 00:48:05,916 --> 00:48:09,916 Speaker 3: and it was rejected for The Birds. We didn't get 882 00:48:09,956 --> 00:48:13,076 Speaker 3: to do it, but the Turtle's got a hit with it. 883 00:48:13,316 --> 00:48:16,636 Speaker 2: Cool. Do you remember it at all? You showed me, Yeah? 884 00:48:16,756 --> 00:48:17,836 Speaker 2: Can you play me a little of it? 885 00:48:18,356 --> 00:48:21,756 Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, first, the original version was down there down here. 886 00:48:21,756 --> 00:48:29,396 Speaker 3: You showed me how exactly what you do. 887 00:48:30,636 --> 00:48:31,716 Speaker 4: In love with you. 888 00:48:32,876 --> 00:48:33,756 Speaker 2: It's incredible. 889 00:48:35,396 --> 00:48:36,076 Speaker 3: It's true. 890 00:48:37,796 --> 00:48:48,996 Speaker 4: I'm in love with you. And when I tried, I 891 00:48:49,076 --> 00:48:50,076 Speaker 4: could see you. 892 00:48:53,396 --> 00:49:03,316 Speaker 3: And it's not a tele You told it to me too, 893 00:49:04,076 --> 00:49:10,796 Speaker 3: exactly what you do and now you love me too. 894 00:49:11,396 --> 00:49:16,196 Speaker 4: It's true too. 895 00:49:17,036 --> 00:49:20,236 Speaker 3: And I always loved that relative minor thing to the 896 00:49:20,836 --> 00:49:21,996 Speaker 3: g ju minor. 897 00:49:21,756 --> 00:49:21,916 Speaker 1: Like. 898 00:49:26,676 --> 00:49:35,596 Speaker 4: I could see and uh, it's not a. 899 00:49:35,636 --> 00:49:43,836 Speaker 2: True Are the chord changes rooted in classical music? It 900 00:49:43,996 --> 00:49:44,956 Speaker 2: feels like it is. 901 00:49:45,396 --> 00:49:48,356 Speaker 3: Well it was if it was. It was subliminally in 902 00:49:49,076 --> 00:49:52,436 Speaker 3: classic because Gene Clark and I wrote it. We were 903 00:49:52,876 --> 00:49:56,476 Speaker 3: standing in Jim Dixon's driveway and we both had a 904 00:49:56,516 --> 00:49:58,996 Speaker 3: crush on the same girl, and we wrote it about 905 00:49:58,996 --> 00:50:01,356 Speaker 3: this girl that we both had a crush on. And 906 00:50:01,956 --> 00:50:05,356 Speaker 3: I remember something interesting. There's something like spiritual in it 907 00:50:05,436 --> 00:50:09,276 Speaker 3: because as I was playing it my guitar, it was almos. 908 00:50:09,116 --> 00:50:11,476 Speaker 3: It's like a divining rod. It was moving around in 909 00:50:11,676 --> 00:50:16,116 Speaker 3: like you know figure eights, like an infinity sign. It 910 00:50:16,236 --> 00:50:19,796 Speaker 3: was it was kind of unusual for that to happen. 911 00:50:20,116 --> 00:50:23,756 Speaker 2: Amazing, Yeah, yeah, like a like a dowsing rod or 912 00:50:23,836 --> 00:50:24,356 Speaker 2: divining rod. 913 00:50:24,516 --> 00:50:27,076 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, something like that, like a you know, divining 914 00:50:27,356 --> 00:50:31,596 Speaker 3: water amazing. I've got a BMI Award for one million plays. 915 00:50:31,636 --> 00:50:33,996 Speaker 3: It's probably had more than that by now, but it's 916 00:50:34,036 --> 00:50:38,076 Speaker 3: been covered by Salt and Pepper and Let's see You 917 00:50:38,196 --> 00:50:40,076 Speaker 3: two Kanye West. 918 00:50:40,196 --> 00:50:43,596 Speaker 2: Wow, it's such a beautiful song. I love that song. 919 00:50:44,276 --> 00:50:44,636 Speaker 3: Thank you. 920 00:50:45,196 --> 00:50:47,156 Speaker 2: Have you had any other mystical experiences? 921 00:50:47,836 --> 00:50:48,196 Speaker 4: Oh? 922 00:50:48,316 --> 00:50:52,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah, tell me, well, you know, I 923 00:50:52,996 --> 00:50:55,476 Speaker 3: sometimes I see stuff through the walls, you know, like 924 00:50:55,556 --> 00:50:58,596 Speaker 3: little dots of light and things like that. You could 925 00:50:58,596 --> 00:51:02,956 Speaker 3: call it hallucinating whatever. And also I've always I've always 926 00:51:02,956 --> 00:51:05,196 Speaker 3: had this thing, this tactle thing where you know, I 927 00:51:05,276 --> 00:51:10,676 Speaker 3: could feel something in the air, something that isn't there. 928 00:51:11,636 --> 00:51:15,076 Speaker 3: I used to do that. I remember in the Columbia studio. 929 00:51:15,516 --> 00:51:18,236 Speaker 3: I'd be waving my hand around while I was singing, 930 00:51:19,756 --> 00:51:23,916 Speaker 3: and when I sang mister Tambrieman, Oh. Jim Dixon had 931 00:51:23,916 --> 00:51:28,236 Speaker 3: made us read an Actor of Preparers by Stanislavsky. Jim 932 00:51:28,356 --> 00:51:31,996 Speaker 3: had a little experience in the Hollywood area. He was 933 00:51:32,036 --> 00:51:35,556 Speaker 3: married to Diane Varsi for a short time and he 934 00:51:35,556 --> 00:51:38,316 Speaker 3: helped her with her career until she decided she didn't 935 00:51:38,316 --> 00:51:40,836 Speaker 3: want to live in Hollywood and do that, so he 936 00:51:40,876 --> 00:51:44,316 Speaker 3: made us read an Actor Prepares which is about method acting. 937 00:51:44,596 --> 00:51:47,036 Speaker 3: So when I got the lyrics to mister Tambourine Man, 938 00:51:47,836 --> 00:51:51,636 Speaker 3: I wanted to do a parallel meaning. And I was singing, Hey, 939 00:51:51,676 --> 00:51:54,596 Speaker 3: mister tamberine Man, play a song for me. I'm not 940 00:51:54,676 --> 00:51:56,876 Speaker 3: sleepy and there is no place I'm going to. I 941 00:51:56,956 --> 00:52:00,436 Speaker 3: wasn't singing to an abstract tamburrie man. I was singing 942 00:52:00,436 --> 00:52:04,876 Speaker 3: to God beautiful. So that was a mystical experience to it. 943 00:52:04,956 --> 00:52:08,356 Speaker 3: I think the reason that song was as popular as 944 00:52:08,356 --> 00:52:12,276 Speaker 3: it was because it had some real heartfelt truth in it. 945 00:52:12,916 --> 00:52:17,956 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and there's something about the like Lyrically, there's nothing 946 00:52:18,116 --> 00:52:23,436 Speaker 2: obviously devotional in in Tambourine Man, but when you're connected 947 00:52:23,556 --> 00:52:26,916 Speaker 2: in a devotional way, there's an energy that can come 948 00:52:26,996 --> 00:52:31,076 Speaker 2: through that you can just feel it. I never knew that. 949 00:52:31,076 --> 00:52:32,916 Speaker 2: It's a beautiful story. I love hearing that story. 950 00:52:33,396 --> 00:52:34,076 Speaker 3: Yeah. 951 00:52:34,116 --> 00:52:36,956 Speaker 2: Do you feel things in space in general or just 952 00:52:37,036 --> 00:52:38,476 Speaker 2: in certain places? 953 00:52:39,236 --> 00:52:42,836 Speaker 3: Well, it's not all the time. I wouldn't say it's 954 00:52:43,196 --> 00:52:45,756 Speaker 3: dependent on the place so much as the time. And 955 00:52:45,876 --> 00:52:50,196 Speaker 3: they you know, mental spiritual attitude I have whatever. I 956 00:52:50,236 --> 00:52:52,996 Speaker 3: remember they asked Tom Petty about how he writes songs. 957 00:52:53,036 --> 00:52:55,516 Speaker 3: They said, well, you know, they come down from I 958 00:52:55,516 --> 00:52:57,556 Speaker 3: don't want to know. He said that you might go away. 959 00:52:57,836 --> 00:53:01,676 Speaker 3: Tom was a great friend and a wonderful inspiration to me. 960 00:53:01,836 --> 00:53:04,556 Speaker 3: I know I inspired him somewhat, but you know, he 961 00:53:04,676 --> 00:53:09,756 Speaker 3: was just an incredible performer and songwriter and a really 962 00:53:09,876 --> 00:53:11,836 Speaker 3: sweet guy. He was just the sweetest guy. 963 00:53:12,076 --> 00:53:14,236 Speaker 2: He was the best. You inspired him a lot, and 964 00:53:14,276 --> 00:53:16,356 Speaker 2: he talked about you all the time. This is the 965 00:53:16,356 --> 00:53:18,276 Speaker 2: first time we're a meeting, but he talked about you 966 00:53:18,356 --> 00:53:18,996 Speaker 2: all of the time. 967 00:53:19,796 --> 00:53:22,516 Speaker 3: Oh well, we had a good friendship. 968 00:53:23,556 --> 00:53:26,076 Speaker 2: It was such a great He was a great songwriter. 969 00:53:26,156 --> 00:53:29,156 Speaker 2: He was such a great musician and had such a 970 00:53:29,156 --> 00:53:33,036 Speaker 2: beautiful voice. But he knew everything about making records, like 971 00:53:33,076 --> 00:53:36,156 Speaker 2: in the studio. He was a total craftsman. He could 972 00:53:36,396 --> 00:53:39,276 Speaker 2: do anything. And uh, it was just fun to be 973 00:53:39,316 --> 00:53:41,116 Speaker 2: around him. I learned so much being around him. 974 00:53:41,676 --> 00:53:42,076 Speaker 3: Yeah. 975 00:53:42,316 --> 00:53:47,236 Speaker 2: Wow, while we miss him absolutely. Have you heard other 976 00:53:47,356 --> 00:53:50,436 Speaker 2: versions of songs you've written that made you hear them 977 00:53:50,436 --> 00:53:51,716 Speaker 2: in a new way? Yeah? 978 00:53:51,756 --> 00:53:56,076 Speaker 3: Well, eight Miles I got covered by husker Doo houtsker Doo. 979 00:53:56,196 --> 00:53:57,476 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, hohoskar doo. 980 00:53:57,516 --> 00:53:59,836 Speaker 3: And they did sort of a real headbanger version of it, 981 00:53:59,916 --> 00:54:04,796 Speaker 3: like loud and raucous. That was good and so you 982 00:54:04,796 --> 00:54:06,916 Speaker 3: want to be a rock and roll star? Got covered 983 00:54:06,916 --> 00:54:10,956 Speaker 3: a lot, yeah by Patty's and Tom Petty. 984 00:54:11,516 --> 00:54:13,756 Speaker 2: When you hear other people do your songs, does it 985 00:54:13,836 --> 00:54:17,436 Speaker 2: feel like that's my song? Or does it feel like, oh, oh, 986 00:54:17,516 --> 00:54:20,436 Speaker 2: I like what they're doing with this thing? Like what's 987 00:54:20,476 --> 00:54:22,916 Speaker 2: the experience like hearing someone else sing a song they've written? 988 00:54:23,316 --> 00:54:25,836 Speaker 3: It's a nice feeling, you know, even if you don't 989 00:54:26,316 --> 00:54:29,876 Speaker 3: appreciate the whole way they did it, it's a nice 990 00:54:29,916 --> 00:54:31,276 Speaker 3: feeling to know that they did do it. 991 00:54:31,476 --> 00:54:33,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, they picked you, They picked your song, they picked 992 00:54:33,676 --> 00:54:35,996 Speaker 2: your work. Yeah yeah, and they could have picked anything 993 00:54:36,036 --> 00:54:38,556 Speaker 2: and they picked yours. So tell me about Terry Melcher. 994 00:54:39,636 --> 00:54:43,396 Speaker 3: Okay. When we got signed to Columbia Records, Jim Dixon 995 00:54:43,436 --> 00:54:45,636 Speaker 3: assumed that he would be a producer because he was 996 00:54:45,956 --> 00:54:49,956 Speaker 3: a record producer, and Columbia had a strict policy. They 997 00:54:50,316 --> 00:54:53,356 Speaker 3: were a union house and they only used their staff producers. 998 00:54:53,916 --> 00:54:56,196 Speaker 3: So they assigned us a twenty three year old son 999 00:54:56,236 --> 00:54:57,956 Speaker 3: of one of their biggest artists. Do or a Stay 1000 00:54:58,596 --> 00:54:59,716 Speaker 3: It's Terry. 1001 00:55:00,676 --> 00:55:02,836 Speaker 2: Had he already produced a lot of stuff at twenty three. 1002 00:55:03,396 --> 00:55:05,276 Speaker 3: Well, he knew what he was doing. He was friends 1003 00:55:05,316 --> 00:55:09,556 Speaker 3: with Brian Wilson, and he knew Brian had used Wrecking 1004 00:55:09,636 --> 00:55:12,716 Speaker 3: Crew on some Beach Boys stuff, and he also knew 1005 00:55:12,716 --> 00:55:17,956 Speaker 3: that Michael Clark couldn't play the drums and we were 1006 00:55:17,956 --> 00:55:21,476 Speaker 3: a fledgling band just kind of learning how to play together. 1007 00:55:21,996 --> 00:55:24,196 Speaker 3: So he got the Wrecking Crew to come and do 1008 00:55:24,276 --> 00:55:28,116 Speaker 3: the band track of Mister Tambriene Man and the Flip Side. 1009 00:55:28,156 --> 00:55:29,756 Speaker 3: I knew I'd want you, and I was allowed to 1010 00:55:29,756 --> 00:55:32,036 Speaker 3: play on it because I'd been a studio musician in 1011 00:55:32,076 --> 00:55:36,876 Speaker 3: New York and I also had the Rickenbacker and the 1012 00:55:36,876 --> 00:55:39,596 Speaker 3: the lick, so I got to play on it, and 1013 00:55:39,636 --> 00:55:42,356 Speaker 3: then the band went nuts. It said no, we want 1014 00:55:42,396 --> 00:55:43,676 Speaker 3: to be like the Beatles, we want to play in 1015 00:55:43,716 --> 00:55:46,876 Speaker 3: our own stuff, and okay, so they got to. Ever 1016 00:55:46,956 --> 00:55:49,556 Speaker 3: after that, we just only did two tracks with the 1017 00:55:49,556 --> 00:55:52,436 Speaker 3: Wrecking Crew, but with the Wrecking Crew we knocked out 1018 00:55:52,796 --> 00:55:55,476 Speaker 3: two songs in a three hour session, and when we 1019 00:55:55,516 --> 00:55:57,596 Speaker 3: got the whole band playing, it took us seventy seven 1020 00:55:57,636 --> 00:55:59,036 Speaker 3: takes to get turnturn turned. 1021 00:56:00,516 --> 00:56:02,116 Speaker 2: What was it like playing with the Wrecking Crew. 1022 00:56:02,916 --> 00:56:05,836 Speaker 3: It was really fun. You know that they were so 1023 00:56:06,036 --> 00:56:09,356 Speaker 3: polished and professional. You know, they didn't do us trick 1024 00:56:09,436 --> 00:56:12,036 Speaker 3: beat I analyzed some of this stuff. And they're like 1025 00:56:12,036 --> 00:56:14,636 Speaker 3: a school of fish. You know, they go around together. 1026 00:56:14,756 --> 00:56:16,956 Speaker 3: You know, they maybe go up tempo, down tempa and 1027 00:56:17,076 --> 00:56:19,716 Speaker 3: sideways and you know, but they were always together. They 1028 00:56:19,756 --> 00:56:23,276 Speaker 3: were tight. And I was a little nervous. Hal Blaine said, 1029 00:56:23,916 --> 00:56:25,956 Speaker 3: you go out and have a couple of beers, kid, 1030 00:56:25,996 --> 00:56:30,276 Speaker 3: you know, I didn't, so but I got We got 1031 00:56:30,276 --> 00:56:32,796 Speaker 3: the session done and it came out good. 1032 00:56:32,996 --> 00:56:35,596 Speaker 2: So were they older than you guys at that time? 1033 00:56:35,676 --> 00:56:39,196 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they're about maybe like seven years older, like 1034 00:56:39,236 --> 00:56:43,796 Speaker 3: Elvis's age. It was hel Blaine, Leanne Russell on electric piano, 1035 00:56:44,356 --> 00:56:47,236 Speaker 3: Cherry Cole on a six string guitar, and Cherry was 1036 00:56:47,236 --> 00:56:52,596 Speaker 3: playing Chinks like and that was something they got from 1037 00:56:52,596 --> 00:56:54,956 Speaker 3: Don't Worry Baby, because they played on Don't Worry Baby 1038 00:56:54,996 --> 00:56:57,676 Speaker 3: for the Beach Boys and the Chinks in that, and 1039 00:56:57,716 --> 00:57:01,556 Speaker 3: then Bill Pittman played on it. Bill Pittman was guitar, 1040 00:57:01,796 --> 00:57:05,956 Speaker 3: Cherry Cole guitar, and Larry Nektell, who usually did keyboards, 1041 00:57:05,956 --> 00:57:06,556 Speaker 3: play bass. 1042 00:57:06,596 --> 00:57:08,316 Speaker 2: Wow, he's great, Yeah, he was. 1043 00:57:08,436 --> 00:57:11,796 Speaker 3: He was great. It was a fun experience, a little 1044 00:57:11,796 --> 00:57:13,636 Speaker 3: nerve wracking, but fun for sure. 1045 00:57:13,796 --> 00:57:15,516 Speaker 2: But I think that some people know the story of 1046 00:57:15,516 --> 00:57:17,196 Speaker 2: the Wrecking Group but they're one of the greatest bands 1047 00:57:17,236 --> 00:57:17,996 Speaker 2: of all time. 1048 00:57:17,876 --> 00:57:21,356 Speaker 3: Really absolutely, and I you know, I didn't know they 1049 00:57:21,396 --> 00:57:23,996 Speaker 3: were the band that played on Phil Spectra's Wall of 1050 00:57:24,116 --> 00:57:26,356 Speaker 3: Sound steps. You know, I used to love to do 1051 00:57:26,476 --> 00:57:30,196 Speaker 3: Ron Ron and my Boyfriend's Back or whatever, all all 1052 00:57:30,236 --> 00:57:34,276 Speaker 3: those songs that And then when Hal passed away, the 1053 00:57:34,356 --> 00:57:37,076 Speaker 3: story came out. See I always thought this was a 1054 00:57:37,076 --> 00:57:46,236 Speaker 3: beatle beat le let's see, h okay. So the story 1055 00:57:46,276 --> 00:57:48,836 Speaker 3: goes that Hal dropped a stick. He was in one 1056 00:57:48,836 --> 00:57:51,956 Speaker 3: of the sessions, and so he couldn't he couldn't play 1057 00:57:51,996 --> 00:57:55,956 Speaker 3: boom boom boom boom. He could go boom boom boom 1058 00:57:55,996 --> 00:57:59,756 Speaker 3: boom boom boom. As a musician, when you make a mistake, 1059 00:57:59,796 --> 00:58:01,516 Speaker 3: you want to continue it so it sounds like you 1060 00:58:01,556 --> 00:58:04,196 Speaker 3: did it on purpose. And that's what he did. So 1061 00:58:04,236 --> 00:58:07,476 Speaker 3: he invented that boom boom bom beat because he dropped 1062 00:58:07,476 --> 00:58:07,796 Speaker 3: a stick. 1063 00:58:08,036 --> 00:58:11,636 Speaker 2: That's unbelieva. Yeah, that's the sound of all the Phil 1064 00:58:11,676 --> 00:58:13,116 Speaker 2: Spector records that it is. 1065 00:58:13,476 --> 00:58:15,356 Speaker 3: That's the sound. And then the Beatles picked it up 1066 00:58:15,716 --> 00:58:17,436 Speaker 3: and I called I used to call it a beatle 1067 00:58:17,436 --> 00:58:19,836 Speaker 3: beat because I didn't realize that Hall had come up 1068 00:58:19,836 --> 00:58:20,956 Speaker 3: with it for Phil Spector. 1069 00:58:21,596 --> 00:58:24,996 Speaker 2: That's amazing, and came up with it by mistake. This 1070 00:58:25,076 --> 00:58:27,196 Speaker 2: is a great thing to talk about. How much do 1071 00:58:27,276 --> 00:58:30,796 Speaker 2: mistakes play into the process of writing something? 1072 00:58:31,196 --> 00:58:33,676 Speaker 3: Well that one Shirre did. Yeah, I don't know, but 1073 00:58:34,716 --> 00:58:36,436 Speaker 3: I love the man. 1074 00:58:36,556 --> 00:58:44,916 Speaker 4: On Sunday anything was to do Run Run Run, Do 1075 00:58:46,716 --> 00:58:49,036 Speaker 4: Run Run run. 1076 00:58:49,996 --> 00:58:52,276 Speaker 3: Oh yeah. At the Brill Building, Kenny Young and I 1077 00:58:52,356 --> 00:58:54,676 Speaker 3: used to analyze Phil Spector records, you know, and we 1078 00:58:54,996 --> 00:58:57,036 Speaker 3: look at that. He used the scribbled little stuff on 1079 00:58:57,356 --> 00:59:02,196 Speaker 3: the vinyl. It's like audio matrix. He wrote with little 1080 00:59:02,436 --> 00:59:06,276 Speaker 3: stylist the Wall of Sound. Wow. 1081 00:59:07,036 --> 00:59:08,796 Speaker 2: Why did Gene Clark leave the band? 1082 00:59:09,756 --> 00:59:12,996 Speaker 3: Well, there's two stories about that. The first one goes, 1083 00:59:13,356 --> 00:59:16,356 Speaker 3: we were ready to fly from LA to New York 1084 00:59:16,396 --> 00:59:19,596 Speaker 3: to do a TV special with Murray the k And 1085 00:59:20,196 --> 00:59:21,796 Speaker 3: back in those days, you could kind of get on 1086 00:59:21,876 --> 00:59:24,396 Speaker 3: a plane whenever you wanted. They didn't have the screening 1087 00:59:24,436 --> 00:59:26,836 Speaker 3: and all the stuff they got now. So I used 1088 00:59:26,876 --> 00:59:28,756 Speaker 3: to show up late, you know, I'd get there just 1089 00:59:28,796 --> 00:59:31,396 Speaker 3: before the close the door. And so I got on 1090 00:59:31,436 --> 00:59:33,556 Speaker 3: the plane and everybody's on the plane and Jean Clark 1091 00:59:33,636 --> 00:59:36,316 Speaker 3: is standing up in the aisle in a cold sweat. 1092 00:59:37,236 --> 00:59:41,316 Speaker 3: He's gone, man, I can't do this man, you know, 1093 00:59:41,396 --> 00:59:43,836 Speaker 3: and we thought, wow, this maybe he's psychic, maybe you 1094 00:59:43,876 --> 00:59:47,836 Speaker 3: know something. Anyway, he got off the plane and I 1095 00:59:47,876 --> 00:59:50,356 Speaker 3: remember saying, well, if you can't fly, you can't be 1096 00:59:50,396 --> 00:59:50,796 Speaker 3: a bird. 1097 00:59:52,796 --> 00:59:55,396 Speaker 2: That's really funny. So you said there are two versions 1098 00:59:55,396 --> 00:59:57,916 Speaker 2: of the story. That's one, okay, Well that was one. 1099 00:59:58,236 --> 01:00:00,396 Speaker 3: He had a nervous breakdown on the plane and left. 1100 01:00:00,676 --> 01:00:02,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was and you think it was he's 1101 01:00:02,556 --> 01:00:03,356 Speaker 2: just afraid of flying. 1102 01:00:03,996 --> 01:00:06,436 Speaker 3: He was afraid of flying and it just. 1103 01:00:06,396 --> 01:00:08,196 Speaker 2: Got worked by that time. The pressure. 1104 01:00:08,356 --> 01:00:08,516 Speaker 8: Yeah. 1105 01:00:08,556 --> 01:00:11,476 Speaker 3: Well, he was doing some heavy LSD and stuff, and 1106 01:00:11,996 --> 01:00:14,236 Speaker 3: you know, I don't think he was on ASCID at 1107 01:00:14,236 --> 01:00:18,196 Speaker 3: that point, but something had damaged his nervous system. He 1108 01:00:18,956 --> 01:00:22,236 Speaker 3: is not a well man. He was, but Jim Dixon 1109 01:00:22,516 --> 01:00:26,356 Speaker 3: in his later years developed some kind of illness where 1110 01:00:26,396 --> 01:00:28,676 Speaker 3: he had to go to the hospital and we didn't 1111 01:00:28,676 --> 01:00:30,316 Speaker 3: know if he was going to make it. So I 1112 01:00:30,796 --> 01:00:33,116 Speaker 3: went to the hospital with my guitar to share him 1113 01:00:33,196 --> 01:00:36,916 Speaker 3: up and played some songs for him, and that's when 1114 01:00:36,956 --> 01:00:39,236 Speaker 3: he gave me what I think might have been a 1115 01:00:39,236 --> 01:00:43,836 Speaker 3: deathbed confession, although he didn't die then, but he said, well, 1116 01:00:43,876 --> 01:00:46,516 Speaker 3: you know, Jean left the band, but Eddie Tickner and 1117 01:00:46,556 --> 01:00:49,716 Speaker 3: I that was his co manager. We're thinking about spinning 1118 01:00:49,796 --> 01:00:51,396 Speaker 3: him off to be a new Elvis Presley. 1119 01:00:51,916 --> 01:00:53,156 Speaker 2: So he was going to go solo. 1120 01:00:53,716 --> 01:00:57,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, and he did. Wow, Wow, he did and he 1121 01:00:57,596 --> 01:00:59,796 Speaker 3: didn't become Elvis Presley. 1122 01:00:59,356 --> 01:01:02,076 Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, interesting, he. 1123 01:01:02,036 --> 01:01:04,196 Speaker 3: Did some good stuff. He did some really crystal like 1124 01:01:04,276 --> 01:01:07,076 Speaker 3: no other is really a fine album. 1125 01:01:07,116 --> 01:01:09,796 Speaker 2: When did Ticket to Ride come out? In relation to 1126 01:01:09,996 --> 01:01:10,676 Speaker 2: Bird's time? 1127 01:01:11,356 --> 01:01:13,076 Speaker 3: It came out after the Birds. 1128 01:01:13,036 --> 01:01:15,596 Speaker 2: So guitar wise, it must be inspired by because it's 1129 01:01:15,636 --> 01:01:16,996 Speaker 2: so much of the Birds sound. 1130 01:01:17,636 --> 01:01:20,876 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I know we did influence George 1131 01:01:20,916 --> 01:01:24,356 Speaker 3: because he he sent Derek Taylor back from London with 1132 01:01:24,436 --> 01:01:28,436 Speaker 3: a tape of If I Needed Someone, and he got 1133 01:01:28,756 --> 01:01:38,116 Speaker 3: the riff from My Bells of Rumney and he asked 1134 01:01:38,116 --> 01:01:40,356 Speaker 3: Derek to tell me that, and I was wow, Man, 1135 01:01:40,636 --> 01:01:43,356 Speaker 3: the Beatles inspired us, and we've inspired the Beatles back. 1136 01:01:43,436 --> 01:01:44,436 Speaker 3: Isn't really a cool thing. 1137 01:01:44,756 --> 01:01:47,956 Speaker 2: It's the best. It's the best to make something you 1138 01:01:48,076 --> 01:01:51,276 Speaker 2: love and to also to be recognized by someone that 1139 01:01:51,796 --> 01:01:54,356 Speaker 2: do you respect their works. There's no better feeling. 1140 01:01:54,956 --> 01:01:55,196 Speaker 4: I know. 1141 01:01:55,396 --> 01:01:58,236 Speaker 3: It's great. And we became friends, the Beatles and the 1142 01:01:58,236 --> 01:02:01,716 Speaker 3: Birds became friends, and we hung out together and took 1143 01:02:01,756 --> 01:02:02,876 Speaker 3: acid with him. 1144 01:02:03,156 --> 01:02:04,916 Speaker 2: This is a weird thing I was thinking about right 1145 01:02:04,916 --> 01:02:07,916 Speaker 2: before we started talking. I looked at your discography and 1146 01:02:08,036 --> 01:02:14,116 Speaker 2: started thinking that we tend to think of musicians' lives 1147 01:02:14,196 --> 01:02:18,476 Speaker 2: through their discography, and I was feeling like it doesn't 1148 01:02:18,516 --> 01:02:21,596 Speaker 2: make sense, and I feel like it's not fair. I 1149 01:02:21,596 --> 01:02:26,516 Speaker 2: don't think the discography does is a true reflection of you. 1150 01:02:26,676 --> 01:02:27,556 Speaker 3: Doesn't do justice. 1151 01:02:27,796 --> 01:02:30,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think so. Thought. I never thought about 1152 01:02:30,396 --> 01:02:32,716 Speaker 2: it before, but for some reason it hit me today 1153 01:02:33,116 --> 01:02:35,916 Speaker 2: that the discography it's just another detail. 1154 01:02:36,396 --> 01:02:38,036 Speaker 3: Well, it's just so the gig. It's just what we 1155 01:02:38,116 --> 01:02:40,436 Speaker 3: do for a living, and then there's a life that 1156 01:02:40,556 --> 01:02:44,596 Speaker 3: goes on beyond that. But it's an exciting gig. I've 1157 01:02:44,676 --> 01:02:48,436 Speaker 3: enjoyed it. I've been very blessed that I could make 1158 01:02:48,516 --> 01:02:51,076 Speaker 3: money as a musician my whole life and never really 1159 01:02:51,116 --> 01:02:53,076 Speaker 3: had to do a day job except the real building. 1160 01:02:53,196 --> 01:02:55,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is not bad and it's a good story. 1161 01:02:56,356 --> 01:02:59,556 Speaker 3: That was good experience. And then being a studio musician 1162 01:02:59,676 --> 01:03:00,436 Speaker 3: was good experience. 1163 01:03:00,796 --> 01:03:02,036 Speaker 2: Do you write songs all the time? 1164 01:03:02,796 --> 01:03:06,036 Speaker 3: No, not anymore. There's no market for me doing that 1165 01:03:06,116 --> 01:03:08,876 Speaker 3: at this point. I don't really feel inspired to do that. 1166 01:03:09,396 --> 01:03:11,676 Speaker 3: I'm happy just doing the folk and keeping the traditional 1167 01:03:11,716 --> 01:03:17,036 Speaker 3: stuff alive. And it keeps my chops up and keeps 1168 01:03:17,076 --> 01:03:20,276 Speaker 3: my recording chops up and my playing chops up in vocal, 1169 01:03:21,036 --> 01:03:25,076 Speaker 3: so it's really fulfilling. I'm working on a project. It's 1170 01:03:25,116 --> 01:03:28,716 Speaker 3: a slow going labor of love kind of thing. But 1171 01:03:28,836 --> 01:03:32,556 Speaker 3: Jack Leedy and I collaborated on a musical back in 1172 01:03:32,676 --> 01:03:37,676 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty eight called Trip troyp Geene. Tripp was an 1173 01:03:37,756 --> 01:03:40,396 Speaker 3: anagram of pure Gant, and he got the idea for 1174 01:03:40,476 --> 01:03:43,556 Speaker 3: the story from Ibsen's peer Gant, but he wanted to 1175 01:03:43,596 --> 01:03:46,836 Speaker 3: move it to the Western United States and nineteen sixty 1176 01:03:46,876 --> 01:03:49,156 Speaker 3: it is when the Bird Sweetheart of the Rodeo came out, 1177 01:03:49,196 --> 01:03:51,236 Speaker 3: So he thought I'd be a good guy to co 1178 01:03:51,316 --> 01:03:54,676 Speaker 3: write the music with him, and we wrote about twenty 1179 01:03:54,716 --> 01:03:57,956 Speaker 3: six songs and the thing never got mounted on Broadway. 1180 01:03:58,436 --> 01:04:02,916 Speaker 3: It did finally get played when Shock became the theatrical 1181 01:04:03,916 --> 01:04:08,236 Speaker 3: instructor at Colgate College in Hamilton, New York, and the 1182 01:04:08,356 --> 01:04:11,476 Speaker 3: kids there did a version of it. But I'm re 1183 01:04:11,476 --> 01:04:14,036 Speaker 3: recording some of the songs, and some of the songs 1184 01:04:14,076 --> 01:04:18,436 Speaker 3: were on the Birds records, like Chestnut Mayor. And I'm 1185 01:04:18,436 --> 01:04:21,236 Speaker 3: a little conflicted because I've rerecorded Chestnut Mayor, but you're 1186 01:04:21,236 --> 01:04:23,476 Speaker 3: never going to get it to sound like the Clarence 1187 01:04:23,476 --> 01:04:26,716 Speaker 3: White version that came out on the untitled album. I 1188 01:04:26,756 --> 01:04:28,716 Speaker 3: was thinking, man, do I want to license this stuff 1189 01:04:28,716 --> 01:04:31,596 Speaker 3: from Sony or what do I want to do? You know? Anyway, 1190 01:04:31,636 --> 01:04:34,156 Speaker 3: I've rerecorded it. It sounds pretty good. I got Marty Stewart 1191 01:04:34,196 --> 01:04:37,076 Speaker 3: to play the Clarence White parts on Chestnut Mayor and 1192 01:04:37,476 --> 01:04:40,356 Speaker 3: they're they're spot on. He got that part right. So 1193 01:04:40,756 --> 01:04:42,876 Speaker 3: I was going to do a narration between the songs, 1194 01:04:42,956 --> 01:04:45,156 Speaker 3: kind of like Peter and the Wolf. Nice and some 1195 01:04:45,236 --> 01:04:49,156 Speaker 3: of the songs have never been recorded before, like the 1196 01:04:49,356 --> 01:04:59,196 Speaker 3: song over stage, over stage, you got to be proficient. 1197 01:04:59,676 --> 01:05:02,716 Speaker 3: The robin over the stage with the cold smith in 1198 01:05:02,876 --> 01:05:08,436 Speaker 3: wesn't Reminton engaged, so it's up pure again, went around, 1199 01:05:08,436 --> 01:05:12,236 Speaker 3: he had to the board. It's like this supernatural force 1200 01:05:12,276 --> 01:05:15,596 Speaker 3: that kept him going from job to job. And so 1201 01:05:15,716 --> 01:05:18,116 Speaker 3: that's what happens in the Gene Tripp thing. He goes 1202 01:05:18,276 --> 01:05:21,436 Speaker 3: he's a preacher, he's a riverboat gambler, and he becomes 1203 01:05:21,636 --> 01:05:25,396 Speaker 3: a stagecoach robber at one point and a politician. And 1204 01:05:25,436 --> 01:05:27,196 Speaker 3: that's where the song I want to grow up to 1205 01:05:27,196 --> 01:05:29,076 Speaker 3: be a politician came from. 1206 01:05:28,916 --> 01:05:30,996 Speaker 2: That sounds great. I can't wait to hear the whole thing. 1207 01:05:31,516 --> 01:05:33,996 Speaker 2: I have one thought when you when you talk about 1208 01:05:33,996 --> 01:05:38,316 Speaker 2: doing covers of songs you've already been involved with, think 1209 01:05:38,356 --> 01:05:40,756 Speaker 2: about it like you're doing a cover of a song 1210 01:05:41,316 --> 01:05:43,756 Speaker 2: that you had no part in, and do you want 1211 01:05:43,796 --> 01:05:47,556 Speaker 2: to reinterpret it in your own voice, making believe that 1212 01:05:47,676 --> 01:05:50,996 Speaker 2: the other one was not you? Like, what what would 1213 01:05:51,036 --> 01:05:53,716 Speaker 2: be the new? Do you know what I'm saying? Instead 1214 01:05:53,756 --> 01:05:54,316 Speaker 2: of trying to. 1215 01:05:54,276 --> 01:05:59,076 Speaker 3: Read it's a metal adjustment, it's a mental adjustment intimidated 1216 01:05:59,076 --> 01:06:01,436 Speaker 3: by don't get intimidated by the original. 1217 01:06:01,556 --> 01:06:04,116 Speaker 2: No, let go of the original completely and make the 1218 01:06:04,156 --> 01:06:08,156 Speaker 2: most interesting version to you today forgetting what the old 1219 01:06:08,196 --> 01:06:10,676 Speaker 2: one was. Just look at the chords and the melody 1220 01:06:10,756 --> 01:06:16,076 Speaker 2: and rethink, rethink the approach, and it's great. U. Yeah, 1221 01:06:16,076 --> 01:06:18,396 Speaker 2: it's great because you can also there's a chance you'll 1222 01:06:18,436 --> 01:06:20,516 Speaker 2: make one that's better than the original. You're never gonna 1223 01:06:20,556 --> 01:06:22,956 Speaker 2: make one better than the original trying to do the original. 1224 01:06:23,516 --> 01:06:25,996 Speaker 2: But now you know it happens sometimes where a cover 1225 01:06:26,036 --> 01:06:30,756 Speaker 2: song transcends the original because you find a new way 1226 01:06:30,756 --> 01:06:32,076 Speaker 2: in and it's really interesting. 1227 01:06:32,796 --> 01:06:35,276 Speaker 3: Okay, thank you, my pleasure. 1228 01:06:37,596 --> 01:06:39,716 Speaker 2: Well, Thank you so much for talking to me today. 1229 01:06:39,756 --> 01:06:40,236 Speaker 2: This is great. 1230 01:06:40,556 --> 01:06:42,556 Speaker 3: Look I had fun. I had fun. It was great. 1231 01:06:44,716 --> 01:06:47,596 Speaker 1: Thanks again to the great Roger mcgwinn. You can hear 1232 01:06:47,636 --> 01:06:50,556 Speaker 1: a playlist of our favorite Roger mcgwin and Bird songs 1233 01:06:50,596 --> 01:06:54,196 Speaker 1: at Broken Record podcast dot com. You can subscribe to 1234 01:06:54,236 --> 01:06:58,156 Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, 1235 01:06:58,196 --> 01:07:01,196 Speaker 1: where you can find all of our new episodes. You 1236 01:07:01,236 --> 01:07:04,996 Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter at broken Records. Broken Record 1237 01:07:05,036 --> 01:07:08,516 Speaker 1: is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Holliday, 1238 01:07:08,756 --> 01:07:13,276 Speaker 1: and Eric sam Our editor is Sophie Craig. Broken Record 1239 01:07:13,316 --> 01:07:15,836 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this 1240 01:07:15,916 --> 01:07:19,236 Speaker 1: show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. 1241 01:07:19,876 --> 01:07:23,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content 1242 01:07:23,556 --> 01:07:26,836 Speaker 1: an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. 1243 01:07:27,236 --> 01:07:30,676 Speaker 1: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if 1244 01:07:30,716 --> 01:07:32,876 Speaker 1: you like the show, please remember to share, rate, and 1245 01:07:32,916 --> 01:07:35,876 Speaker 1: review us on your podcast app. A theme music is 1246 01:07:35,876 --> 01:07:38,036 Speaker 1: by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Wischer