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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson, Tracy Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and listeners. I am clearly on a roller coaster cycle

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Speaker 1: of like super Downer episode, light and Fun episode, Super

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Speaker 1: Downer episode, Light and Fun episode. I'm sorry, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going on. You gotta do what you gotta do.

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Speaker 1: I think I because of where we're all at mentally,

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Speaker 1: and like evolution did not prepare us to deal with

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Speaker 1: the ongoing kind of stress of a pandemic, my brain

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Speaker 1: is very much gravitating towards a lot of dark things

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Speaker 1: in a not bad way. I am fine, but I

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Speaker 1: always have had that proclivity and it's kind of augmented now.

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Speaker 1: But then I always feel like, oh, I gotta bounce

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Speaker 1: back by doing something late and thankfully today we are

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Speaker 1: on a light wek um and it is about one

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Speaker 1: of our favorite subjects. That means this is a food episode.

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Speaker 1: I can't even describe the weird circumstance that happened, but

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Speaker 1: through this complete happenstance, I saw a reference to a

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Speaker 1: food that was named for someone recently, and then I

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Speaker 1: found myself wondering if that had been a real person.

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Speaker 1: I have a whole secondary thing with it that I'll

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Speaker 1: talk about in the behind the scenes, and if it

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Speaker 1: was a real person, who that real person was? And

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Speaker 1: then soon I was down this eponymous foods rabbit hole

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Speaker 1: and it was very, very fun. So, uh, if Tracy

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Speaker 1: and everyone else will come along with people will explore

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Speaker 1: three of these foods. But I feel like this could

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Speaker 1: be the start of a a recurrent theme. As anybody

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Speaker 1: knows from any episode on food that we have done before,

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Speaker 1: they're often a lot of fuzzy details and variations on

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Speaker 1: origin stories. That's often just how it happens when there's

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Speaker 1: sort of a culinary accident or an experiment that turns

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Speaker 1: out well. It's not always doc event and carefully so,

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Speaker 1: I have tried to capture all of the most popular

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Speaker 1: versions of any of these origin stories or note when

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Speaker 1: things have differed significantly. So grab a snack and we

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Speaker 1: will dive right in. We're going to start with one

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Speaker 1: of the world's most popular varieties of fruit, and to

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Speaker 1: tell that fruit story, we have to talk about Maria

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Speaker 1: Anne Sherwood. Maria Anne Sherwood was born in seventeen nine

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Speaker 1: and Peasmarsh, Sussex, England. Her father, John Sherwood, was a laborer,

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Speaker 1: Her mother was Hannah Wright Sherwood, and Marie was baptized

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Speaker 1: on January eighteen hundred at St Peter and St Paul

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Speaker 1: Church in the same rural community where she was born.

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Speaker 1: As she grew up, she didn't really receive much in

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Speaker 1: the way of a formal education, but she did learn

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Speaker 1: about farming through her parents and she worked as a

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Speaker 1: farm laborer just as they did. At the age of nineteen,

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Speaker 1: Maria got married to another farm laborer named Thomas Smith,

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Speaker 1: who was her same age. Their wedding was held in Ebony,

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Speaker 1: Kent at the parish church on August eight, eight nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Since neither Maria nor Thomas could write, they both signed

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Speaker 1: their wedding paperwork with a mark. The newlyweds settled in

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Speaker 1: Beckley and East Sussex, which is where Thomas had grown up,

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Speaker 1: and they started their family there. They had a total

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Speaker 1: of eight children over the course of the next nineteen years,

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Speaker 1: although three of those children died as infants. In eighteen

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Speaker 1: thirty eight, Maria and Thomas made a huge change. They

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Speaker 1: set sail for Australia and as part of what's often

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Speaker 1: called the bounty scheme. In the decades leading up to

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Speaker 1: the eighteen forties, Britain had gone through a series of

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Speaker 1: events that had led to a lot of economic distress.

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Speaker 1: There was the US were of Independence, the French Revolution,

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Speaker 1: and a subsequent war with France. All of that had

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Speaker 1: been extremely costly. There was also an agricultural crisis and

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Speaker 1: a food shortage as a series of harvests failed. As

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Speaker 1: the industrial age started, a workforce that was already flooded

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Speaker 1: with men who had served in the war saw shrinking

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Speaker 1: job numbers and the rise of workhouses, and one of

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Speaker 1: the ways that was proposed to deal with these problems

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Speaker 1: was a scheme that would take some of those tradesmen

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Speaker 1: and agricultural laborers and send them to the New South

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Speaker 1: Wales colony in Australia to both relieve the conditions in

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Speaker 1: England and create infrastructure and a food system for that

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Speaker 1: new colony. The rules of that program changed over the years,

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Speaker 1: but by the time the Smiths were recruited, any settler

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Speaker 1: who was already in New South Wales who wanted labor

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Speaker 1: for their enterprise could pay agents in Britain to recruit

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Speaker 1: skilled emigrants and then have them as employees when they

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Speaker 1: arrived in Australia, provided they passed inspection. All of this

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Speaker 1: is a very abbreviated version of a much bigger and

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Speaker 1: very complex topic. We are just introducing it here to

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Speaker 1: explain exactly how this farm family from East Sussex picked

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Speaker 1: up their lives and moved to the other side of

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Speaker 1: the world. While a lot of the scholarship on the

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Speaker 1: bounty scheme suggest us that in a lot of the

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Speaker 1: cases the people being shipped to New South Wales were

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Speaker 1: not really up to snuff in terms of work experience,

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Speaker 1: the program rarely accepted families. The Smiths were both knowledgeable

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Speaker 1: and farm practice and had five children. There was Thomas

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Speaker 1: age sixteen, Stephen age thirteen, Charles age eight, Sarah who

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Speaker 1: was six, and then one year old Maria Ann. They

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Speaker 1: all made the journey together and they're reported as traveling

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Speaker 1: aboard the Lady Nugent. They arrived in Sydney, Australia on

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Speaker 1: November eight. Yeah, the Lady Nugent has its own whole

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Speaker 1: history as like a prison ship for a while and

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Speaker 1: then um as an immigration ship later, but once Maria

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Speaker 1: and Thomas had made it to their destination, and they

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Speaker 1: all made it more or less intact. Thomas sought out

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Speaker 1: work and found it in a district which is charmingly

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Speaker 1: called Kissing Point. That's in an area called RDE that's

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Speaker 1: a suburb of Sydney, and the draw to Kissing Point

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Speaker 1: was its fruit production. Thomas was able to harley his

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Speaker 1: years of farming experience and knowledge to get a job

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Speaker 1: with an established fruit grower making five pounds per year,

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Speaker 1: and the Smith's family made Ride their permanent home. Maria

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Speaker 1: had one more child after they had settled in New

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Speaker 1: South Wales. That was a son named William, who was

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Speaker 1: born several years after they had moved in May of

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Speaker 1: eighteen forty two. Maria's husband, Thomas may also have taken

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Speaker 1: on a side job working for Major Edward Darville on

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Speaker 1: his estate. That information has been relaid through family stories though,

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Speaker 1: and it's not documented, so it's not totally clear. But

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Speaker 1: Thomas Smith did save up money over the years, and

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen fifties he was able to purchase two

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Speaker 1: parcels of land that were adjacent to the field of

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Speaker 1: mars Common in Ride. The field of mars Common was

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Speaker 1: land that had been set aside as a public space

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Speaker 1: in eighteen o four, so that meant that the Smith's

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Speaker 1: new orchard property, which is about twenty four acres, was

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Speaker 1: right next to undeveloped space. In eighteen seventy four. A

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Speaker 1: significant portion of the Field of Mars Common was cleared

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Speaker 1: and sold off as farms and homes after the passage

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Speaker 1: of the Field of Mars Resumption Act, but part of

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Speaker 1: it remains undeveloped as a wildlife refuge. The area in

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Speaker 1: which the Smith orchards were cultivated is now known as Eastwood,

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Speaker 1: and the first of the apples, which we would now

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Speaker 1: know as Granny Smith, were said to have been discovered

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Speaker 1: by Maria, having sprung up quite by accident. In the

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Speaker 1: Perth Sunday Times, a story appeared on November two titled

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Speaker 1: the Granny Smith Apple the Story of its Origin, and

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Speaker 1: this actually recounts a story that had already appeared in

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Speaker 1: a much smaller publication called Farmer and Settler, and they

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Speaker 1: ran a version of the piece in June of that year.

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Speaker 1: The Farmer and Settler right up is the first known

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Speaker 1: account of the origin of the apple in print, and

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Speaker 1: it was the work of writer H. J. Rumsey, who

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Speaker 1: in his research, interviewed two men who had known Maria

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Speaker 1: Smith when she was alive. The two gentlemen where fruit

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Speaker 1: grower E. H. Small and Harry Johnston. According to Mr

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Speaker 1: Small's story, Maria had taken some gin cases home from

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Speaker 1: the Sydney markets and there had been some Tasmanian grown

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Speaker 1: apples in them. She referred to these as French crabs,

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Speaker 1: and those fruits were rotting, so she dumped them out

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Speaker 1: near the creek on the Smith property. But then sometime

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Speaker 1: later She's found a small apple seedling growing among the

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Speaker 1: ferns by the creek and it was producing fruit. This

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Speaker 1: was an apple that was different for many that she

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Speaker 1: was familiar with. And remember, this isn't like a person

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Speaker 1: who is not knowledgeable about fruit, so she was like,

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Speaker 1: this is something unique. Maria, who had come to be

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Speaker 1: known among locals as Granny as she aged as kind

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Speaker 1: of a sweet nickname, wanted to get the opinions of

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Speaker 1: other fruit experts about this seedling and its fruit, so

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Speaker 1: she called in E. H. Small's father, who was also

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Speaker 1: an expert orchardist. E H was just a boy of

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Speaker 1: twelve at the time, but he went with his father

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Speaker 1: and Mrs Smith to examine this seedlinging, and as a

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Speaker 1: boy tasted one of the seedlings apples himself, he declared

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Speaker 1: it delicious. After consulting with Small, Maria decided that she

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Speaker 1: would start cultivating the trees, but she only had a

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Speaker 1: couple of years to do so before she died. So

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Speaker 1: a couple of notes on apples and their propagation. Almost

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Speaker 1: all apples require cross pollination. That means they have to

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Speaker 1: be pollinated with pollen from a different apple species to

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Speaker 1: produce fruit. The Granny Smith apple as we know it

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Speaker 1: today is an exception. It can self pollinate, although it

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Speaker 1: normally produces a better result if it's cross pollinated. But

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Speaker 1: it's obviously different from a crab apple, which is what

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Speaker 1: Maria Smith had dumped out. Crab apples are just really

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Speaker 1: small apples, and the French crabs that she mentioned are

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Speaker 1: a type that's often used for jellies and jams, So

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Speaker 1: it seems most likely that the seeds from those French

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Speaker 1: crabs had grown into trees that were pollinated with pollen

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Speaker 1: from some other tree nearby. This is an area that

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Speaker 1: was known for its fruit, including many orchards. The resulting

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Speaker 1: fruit produced seeds that eventually became this new apple tree

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Speaker 1: that Maria Smith found in the ferns. None of the

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Speaker 1: accounts of Maria Seedling have any dates or timelines mentioned

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Speaker 1: between when she dumped out the rotted crab apples and

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Speaker 1: when she found this new tree. So there's this there's

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Speaker 1: some guesswork here. Yeah. There was even one right up

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Speaker 1: about it that I read that said there's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a mystery because in one account she had

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Speaker 1: suggested that the land had been cleared in between the

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Speaker 1: time that she had dumped those rotted French crabs and

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Speaker 1: when she found this tree. So it's a little like, well, then,

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Speaker 1: how how did this happen? But it does bear enough

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Speaker 1: resemblance to to a French crab apple that people still

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Speaker 1: think that's the origin point that then got cross pollinated

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Speaker 1: with another species of apple. Maria Smith died on March nine,

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Speaker 1: and her husband, Thomas died six years later. Orchardist Edward Gallard,

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Speaker 1: who was a friend of the family, bought part of

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Speaker 1: the family property from their surviving children, and he continued

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Speaker 1: to cultivate Granny Smith apples until his death in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen teens. Those tart apples had the characteristics that continue

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Speaker 1: to make them popular today. They had an excellent resilience

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Speaker 1: in baking so they don't disintegrate, and an acidity that

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Speaker 1: accentuates sweet flavors. Although it actually was not initially recognized

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Speaker 1: for its excellence in dessert baking, it was used for

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Speaker 1: cooking things that were not so sweet At first. Gallard

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Speaker 1: and other orchardists in New South Wales continued to cultivate

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Speaker 1: the apple trees that Maria Smith first discovered as an

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Speaker 1: accidental seedling. In the early eighteen nineties. Fruits produced by

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Speaker 1: the Granny Smith trees were starting to win prizes in Australia,

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Speaker 1: particularly as a cooking apple, and in Granny Smith apple

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Speaker 1: trees are planted in large numbers that the Bath Frost

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Speaker 1: Experiment Farm that was part of Australia's still new Department

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Speaker 1: of Agriculture. The apples were all so part of the

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Speaker 1: list of fruits suitable for export that the Department of

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Speaker 1: Agriculture compiled in and the Agricultural Gazette of New South Wales,

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Speaker 1: which came out in August of the Granny Smith apple

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Speaker 1: is referenced by that name in a section titled Fruits

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Speaker 1: to Export and how to Export Them. It had this

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Speaker 1: brief descriptor quote. Granny Smith's seedling, a New South Wales

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Speaker 1: seedling raised from seed of the French crab near Ride

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Speaker 1: on the Paramatta River. One of the things that helped

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Speaker 1: the Granny Smith apple secure its position of popularity around

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Speaker 1: the globe, it's just how sturdy it is. That firmness

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Speaker 1: of the fruit that makes it great for baking, also

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Speaker 1: makes it pretty easy to transport compared to some other

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Speaker 1: softer apples. And that's also thanks to a relatively thick skin,

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Speaker 1: so it stays marketable for longer and shipping. But as

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Speaker 1: it shipped around the world from New South Wales, it

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Speaker 1: also of course started to be cultivated on new continents.

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Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties, European grow started introducing it into

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Speaker 1: their orchard and then in the nineties seventies it finally

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Speaker 1: became popular in North America. Today, there's a Granny Smith

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Speaker 1: Memorial Park on the eastwood Land that was once the

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Speaker 1: southern boundary of the Smith orchard. There's a playground area,

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Speaker 1: a wide open green space for playing in a monument

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Speaker 1: placed there by the New South Wales by Centennial Council.

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Speaker 1: Coming up, we are going to talk about one of

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Speaker 1: the simplest and most delicious dishes known to humankind. There's

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Speaker 1: gonna be some cheese, but before we do that, we

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Speaker 1: will have a quick sponsor break. Alrighty, the next person

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Speaker 1: that we are talking about is Ignacio Anaya. If you're

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Speaker 1: scratching your head wondering what food is named after him,

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Speaker 1: we will only need to remind you that the nickname

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Speaker 1: for Ignacio is Nacho. That is right. Nacho's have a

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Speaker 1: traceable lineage, and they were named for their creator. And

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Speaker 1: while they seem like they us have been around forever,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk a little bit about that. Uh, Nacho's

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Speaker 1: as we know them, are not that old. Just to

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Speaker 1: avoid confusion, even though Ignacio did go by Naco most

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Speaker 1: of the time, We're mostly going to refer to him

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Speaker 1: by his given name rather than his nickname, just so

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Speaker 1: that we don't constantly say Nacho over and over and over.

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Speaker 1: Ignacio and I I was born in San Carlos, Chihuahua, Mexico,

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Speaker 1: on August. His parents died when he was very young,

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Speaker 1: and he was raised by a foster mother. One of

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Speaker 1: the memories about her that and I would recount later

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Speaker 1: in his life was that she often made him Cassidas,

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Speaker 1: which he loved. Andia had a number of jobs in

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Speaker 1: his early life, and he lived in a few different places,

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Speaker 1: but eventually he ended up working at a restaurant in

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Speaker 1: Piedro's Nigres, Mexico, called the Victory Club for reference. Piedro's

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Speaker 1: Negres is about one fifty miles west of San Antonio, Texas,

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Speaker 1: and it is just a short jump across the US

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Speaker 1: Mexico border from Eagle Pass, Texas. Ignacio had worked as

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Speaker 1: a waiter over the years, but he was the restaurant's

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Speaker 1: maitre d by the time he created his now famous snack.

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Speaker 1: One afternoon in ninety three, he was working in the

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Speaker 1: restaurant in the time in between the lunch and dinner service,

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Speaker 1: and several wives of officers from Eagle Pass came in.

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Speaker 1: The story has been told a number of different ways.

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Speaker 1: In one version and I told the press that after

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Speaker 1: several rounds of drinks, these four ladies asked for some

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Speaker 1: fried tortillas, and as he explained, quote, well, since no

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Speaker 1: one was in the kitchen for about an hour, I

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Speaker 1: went in slice of tortilla and four pieces, put some

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Speaker 1: cheese and a slice of hallepenia on top. And stuck

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Speaker 1: it in the oven for a few minutes. That cheese

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Speaker 1: was reported as Wisconsin cheddar, and the hallapenos are pickled.

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Speaker 1: So that story has appeared in print in a lot

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Speaker 1: of different ways, with various changes to the details. In

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Speaker 1: two thousand two, Anaya's son, Ignacio and Iya Jr. Said

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Speaker 1: that one of his father's regular customers, a woman named

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Speaker 1: Mami Finance, came in with a larger group of friends

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Speaker 1: tend to twelve women who were officers wives from Fort

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Speaker 1: Duncan Air Base. You may also run across versions that

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Speaker 1: tell this story as being about soldiers from the base,

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Speaker 1: but the ones that are closer to the source all

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Speaker 1: mentioned women, even though the numbers change a little bit.

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Speaker 1: According to Ignacio Anaya Jr. It was Mamie fine And

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Speaker 1: who started touting this dish to her friends, And one

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Speaker 1: version she had asked Ignacio what he called this snack,

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Speaker 1: which she and her friends just loved, because who doesn't.

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Speaker 1: He told her they were Nacho's special or nachos special,

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Speaker 1: And another version of this story, it was fine And

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Speaker 1: who started calling them nachos special. Either way, though she

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Speaker 1: started talking them up to other people. Soon Nacho's Especial

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Speaker 1: appeared on the menu at the Victory Club. In some

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Speaker 1: versions of the story, Ignacio worked at the Victory Club

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Speaker 1: for almost twenty more years until it closed in nine,

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Speaker 1: but he has also often said to have worked at

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Speaker 1: another restaurant called the Maderno for a period of time

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Speaker 1: after the Victory Club and shared his nachos special recipe there.

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Speaker 1: Some quotes even placed the moment of invention at the

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Speaker 1: Maderno and not at the Victory Club, sometimes when they

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Speaker 1: have interviewed the same person just years apart. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty four, a cookbook published by the Eagle Past Church

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Speaker 1: of the Redeemer called Saint Ann's Cookbook contained the first

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Speaker 1: printed recipe for Nacho's especials that included the story of

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Speaker 1: their invention. Not long after the Victory Club closed in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one, Ignacio went into business for himself and

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Speaker 1: opened up Nacho's Restaurant on hwifty seven, just a couple

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Speaker 1: of miles from the bridge that connected Eagle Pass and

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Speaker 1: Piedras Nigress. In nineteen sixty nine, the San Antonio Express

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Speaker 1: and News interviewed a n i Am and printed a

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Speaker 1: story about how even though he had invented what had

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Speaker 1: become an incredibly popular dish over the twenty six years

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Speaker 1: since he threw it together. That afternoon, he had not

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Speaker 1: actually made any money off of it. Ignacio gave a

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Speaker 1: quote to reporter Bill Salter saying, quote, the only man

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Speaker 1: who's making money on nachos is the man who's selling

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Speaker 1: cheese and hallapenos. Ania also told Salter that a friend

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Speaker 1: who was a lawyer had offered to help him patent

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Speaker 1: his dish, but that Anya had turned him down, saying quote,

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Speaker 1: I didn't go with him or want to do it.

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Speaker 1: I thought it would be too much trouble. But of

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Speaker 1: course then I didn't know how popular they were going

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Speaker 1: to become. This is a little different from what his

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Speaker 1: son reported years later and Ignacio Junior's version he had

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Speaker 1: reached out to a lawyer to try to help his

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Speaker 1: dad secure some kind of legal claim to Nacho's telling

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Speaker 1: a reporter in two thousand to quote, I talked to

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Speaker 1: a lawyer in San Antonio. He said, there's not much

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Speaker 1: you can do after seventeen years, it's in the public domain.

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Speaker 1: Although he recognized that another path might have given him

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Speaker 1: more income, Ignaia Sr. Said that he would be just

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00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,919
Speaker 1: as happy with lots of customers at his restaurant. Unfort

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Speaker 1: sly Later that same year, Operation Intercept caused some very

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Speaker 1: real problems for Anaia and other businesses in Piedro Negras.

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Speaker 1: Operation Intercept was a Nixon initiative that was intended to

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Speaker 1: stop the movement of marijuana from Mexico into the US

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Speaker 1: through spot checks at border crossing points. Even though the

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00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 1: bridge from Eagle Pass to Piedro's Negres experienced only minimal slowdowns,

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Speaker 1: as part of this whole initiative, there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of news stories about hours long waits at other points

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Speaker 1: along the border, and that caused a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who would kind of do day tourism trips to Piedro's

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Speaker 1: Negros uh to stop making that trip to Nacho's restaurant.

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Speaker 1: Ignacio reported that there were days of the restaurant had

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Speaker 1: no patrons whatsoever, but due to lack of results from

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Speaker 1: that program, it did not last long. Operation Intercept ended

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Speaker 1: after just a few weeks. Ignacio died in nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 1: His wife had died nine years before he did, That

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Speaker 1: was in nineteen sixty six. They had raised nine children together,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't until twenty years later in that Piedras

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Speaker 1: Negras Mexico declared October twenty one as International Day of

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Speaker 1: the Nacho. They also honored Ignacio and i A with

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Speaker 1: a bronze plaque. This declaration and honor were to some

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Speaker 1: degree an effort to stake a claim to the invention

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Speaker 1: of nachos on the part of the Tourism Board of

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Speaker 1: the State of Kawahila. Naturally, a dish as popular as

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Speaker 1: nacho's has some other claims to the origin, and even

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00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,439
Speaker 1: people who say that melted cheese on tortillas has just

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00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 1: been a part of Mexican cuisine for way longer than

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Speaker 1: sixty years. Yeah, there are even some quotes that you

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00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 1: can find from Ignacio Anaia saying essentially the same thing,

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Speaker 1: like I didn't patent it because it's just cheese on tortillas.

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Speaker 1: Everybody does that um. Ignacio's son, Ignacio Jr. Often served

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Speaker 1: as a judge at the annual nacho competition that was

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Speaker 1: part of a three day festival Piedro's Nigras started holding

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Speaker 1: every year around International Day of the Nacho. Although he

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00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,360
Speaker 1: sampled nachos topped with all kinds of different ingredients over

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00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 1: the years, including caviare uh, he always loved the simple

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00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: version that his dad created the best, although he did

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00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 1: at one point mentioned to a reporter that nachos would

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Speaker 1: beef for chicken and guacamole made for a pretty tasty meal.

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Speaker 1: Of course, nacho's have evolved since this origin. Point. You

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Speaker 1: might be thinking of the version with a cheese sauce

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Speaker 1: rather than melted cheese, wondering where that comes from. That's

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00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: thanks to a man named Frank Liberto. He was CEO

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Speaker 1: of Rico's Products Company, which specializes still in concession foods.

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00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: Liberto introduced nachos with a pompable cheese sauce in Arlington's

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Speaker 1: Stadium in n and then, after a slow start, this

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00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: version caught on with food distributors, in part because they

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00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: found that nachos drove drink sales up. People balance the

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00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 1: spice of the jalapenos, and I would argue also the

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00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: saltiness of the chips. I was thinking too that the

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00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: salt was probably a factor there. Um, Okay, we have

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00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 1: got one more eponymous food story to cover, but before

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00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: we do, we're gonna pause for a word from stuff

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00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: you missed in history classes. Sponsors. So this last one

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00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about is a story that

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00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: has two very different dates attached to it, but both

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00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 1: of those dates relate back to the man for whom

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00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 1: the dish was named and the same location. So we're

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00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: going to talk about both of the ways the Cops

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00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 1: Salad is said to have come into existence, and then

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00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: the many variations on the second version of the story.

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Speaker 1: So the Cops Salad is also associated with the famous

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00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: Los Angeles restaurant chain, The Brown Derby, which operated from

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00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: the original Brown Derby on Wilshire Boulevard across from the

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Speaker 1: Ambassador Hotel. Was built in the shape of a Derby

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Speaker 1: hat with a sign on top of it that read

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Speaker 1: eat in the Hat, and from the very beginning it

401
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: was a popular spot with screen stars. Everybody from Mary

402
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: Pickford to Charlie Chaplin was known to eat there. The

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00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: Derby moved down the street in nineteen thirty seven, and

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00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: not just in name, the actual building was picked up

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00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: and moved down the block and then renovated in the

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00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: process so that it had more seating space because the

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00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: original one was quite small. In the meantime, another Brown

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00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: Derby had opened on the corner of Hollywood and Vine

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00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: in ninety nine, and that Hollywood location was even more

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00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 1: popular with actors because of how close it was to

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00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 1: the studios. In one a location was added to the

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00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: corner of Wilshire Boulevard and Rodeo Drive, and then another

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00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: was open in Las Felis, and each of these locations

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00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: has its own story in its own connection to Hollywood

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00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 1: and Los Angeles history. Robert Cobb was born in eighteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine, and there's not exactly a wealth of information

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00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: about his early years, but by the time he was

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00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 1: in his mid twenties, he was working alongside director Herbert K.

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00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: Somborne and screenwriter Wilson Meisner and their new restaurant venture,

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00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: and he was a co owner. And the story of

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00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: the salad falls from a couple of different places on

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00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: the timeline, sometimes starting all the way back to the

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00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 1: very early days. Perhaps the least favored version of the

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00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: Cobb Salads origins is that it was created at the

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00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: opening of the Hollywood Brown Derby by executive chef Robert

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00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: Crease in honor of the owner. That makes a lot

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00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: of logistical sense. That's probably why it's the least favored version.

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00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: It's not very full of you know, um puff or story.

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00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: The more popular version is a lot more colorful, so

430
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 1: that version of the stories that's the scene in N seven,

431
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: and even this one story has some branching variations. The

432
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: least showy version of this one is that around midnight,

433
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: after a full day of work and without stopping to eat,

434
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: Bob Cobb was ravenous, so the head chef at the time,

435
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 1: Paul J. Posti, created a salad with basically what they

436
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: still had on hand after the end of the whole

437
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: dinner shift, and then he offered that to his boss.

438
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: This is also pretty believable, and once again that makes

439
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: it less beloved than some of the other versions. Yeah,

440
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: the next iteration includes those key catalysts from the previous

441
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: one that Bob Cobb was very hungry, that it was

442
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: very late, that he had not eaten all day because

443
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: the restaurant was so busy, But in this take on it,

444
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: he went to the kitchen himself and rooted around for

445
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: whatever he could find and then just started adding various

446
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: leftover items to a bed of lettuce. The final version

447
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: sort of is that Cobb was in a restaurant at

448
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: or after midnight once again, but in this version, said Grauman,

449
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: owner of Grauman's Chinese theater was with him, and it

450
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: was Sid who was hungry, and so Cob put together

451
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: a salad for his friend of snack on. This one

452
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: has an added detail that Graunman either had a sore

453
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: tooth or had a recent dental procedure that led Cob

454
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: to chop all the ingredients into easily swallowed pieces that

455
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: would not require a bunch of chewing before he tossed

456
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: the salad with dressing. So we said that was sort

457
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 1: of the last version, because sometimes that Cobb and Graunman

458
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: together story gets some facts switched around, but it stays

459
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: essentially the same at its core. You might see a

460
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: version of it where it was Cobb who was a

461
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: hungry one, but Sid Grauman was there and was intrigued

462
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: by the restaurant tours midnight snack, and so he asked

463
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: for one himself. But the detail for even the blended

464
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: up aspects of the story that usually lands at the

465
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: end of all of them is that Graunman loved this

466
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: dish so much that he came in the very next

467
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: day and asked for the same thing, and he ordered

468
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: it as a Cobb salad, and soon that dish became

469
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: a menu staple and to see why the classic ingredients

470
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: for a Cobb salad are allegedly the same as it

471
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: was possibly scavenged from the kitchen, and whatever version of

472
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: this story that you believe, iceberg and romaine, lettuces, avocado, tomatoes,

473
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: chicken breast, hard boiled eggs, bacon and rook frot cheese.

474
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: The dressings components are a matter of debate. It might

475
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: have contained olive oil, lemon juice, red wine, vinegar, Worcester sauce, garlic,

476
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: and dijon mustard with just a little sugar, may or

477
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: may not have included egg yolks. Any of these ingredients

478
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: could have been in there. Kind of a mystery. Yeah,

479
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: and today, if you have a Cob salad, even at

480
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: places that claim they're doing the original, the dressing would

481
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 1: probably very a little bit place to place, depending on

482
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: how they like to do it. All are delicious. But

483
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: in this case, while the story has a lot of variations,

484
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: the central theme always remains the same and that it

485
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: was invented at the Brown Derby, and that it is

486
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: named for Robert Cobb. And because Holly is sure there'll

487
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: be folks wondering in the listening audience, the Rion of

488
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: the Brown Derby that's in Disney's Hollywood Studios in Florida,

489
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 1: is based on the Hollywood location of that restaurant. It

490
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: is not shaped like a hat, but you can get

491
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: a cop salad there. Yeah. Um. I did find one

492
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: picture that seems to be mislabeled online that claims that

493
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: it is the Hollywood Brown Derby in Disney's Hollywood Studios,

494
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: and it is shaped like a hat, but that I

495
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: think is an older one before it got torn down.

496
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: And it does have some souvenirs out front, which I

497
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: think is confusing to people, but none of them are

498
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: Disney souvenirs if you look closely, so that one is

499
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: not the one. Um Cobs salad, Uh Yeah, delicious, marvelous,

500
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: Thank you Robert Cobb. However that came to be. I

501
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: have listener mail that is also about food, and partially

502
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: about yucky food, so I'm sorry, but it ends with

503
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: funniness about cheese, which we've mentioned in two of these dishes,

504
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: so I'm happy to include it. This is from our

505
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: listener Shelley, who writes High Holly and Tracy. I just

506
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: listened to this swill Milk scandal of episode and I

507
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: was utterly fascinated and totally disgusted in equal measure. Like

508
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: you mentioned, maybe in the behind the scenes many I'd

509
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: never really thought about how odd it is that milk

510
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: was a staple food item way before refrigeration was possible

511
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: At home. I grew up pretty much just putting milk

512
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: and tea and cereal. But my husband grew up drinking

513
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: a glass of milk multiple times a day. Even now

514
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: in his thirties. Anytime we have pasta with tomato sauce,

515
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: he always drinks a big glass of milk with dinner. Because,

516
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: of course, I guess. I was reminded of maybe my

517
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: favorite scene in the latest installment of Becky Chambers Wayfarer series,

518
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: The Galaxy and the Ground Within. If you haven't read it,

519
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it. It's fun, funny, heartwarming and poignant

520
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 1: sci fi with incredible world building that both makes you

521
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: think and want to be best friends with all the characters.

522
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: But I digress from dairy. There is a scene where

523
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: several individuals of different sentient alien species are chatting, and

524
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: one character asked the only other who knows the human, well,

525
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: if cheese is actually a real thing. The ensuing description

526
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: of the unfortunate reality of cheese made me laugh harder

527
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: than I've laughed while reading in a very long time.

528
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: The cheese making process is described as leaving the milk

529
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: mixture quote out until bacteria colonize it to the point

530
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: of solidifying, and I felt hilariously called out as one

531
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: of the humans so quote bonkers for cheese that they'll

532
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: ingest a dose of the enzymes needed to properly digest

533
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: it before they can eat it. Devastatingly accurate for me anyway.

534
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for all the wonderful work you do on the podcast.

535
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: I always look forward to new episodes. Um, thank you

536
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: for sharing that. It is one of those things. There

537
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: are a lot of foods that when I think about them,

538
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, who was like, um, that thing that

539
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: came out of a chicken's cloaco, We should eat that

540
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean, there are many many foods of

541
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: that nature. I understand how some people land at an

542
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: entirely plant based diet based where a lot of food

543
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: comes from. I had parents who had a farm when

544
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: I was quite young, so I never had any illusions

545
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: about the origin of animal based foods um and yet

546
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: still continue to eat them. Um, if you would like

547
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: to write to us and share your revelations about how

548
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: cheese is actually kind of gross even though it is

549
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: magically delicious, or anything else you can do so, you

550
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: can write us at History podcast at iHeart radio dot com.

551
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media as missed

552
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: in History. And if you'd like to subscribe to the

553
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: show and you haven't gotten around to that yet, finish

554
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: your snack and then you can do so. That's on

555
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app or anywhere else you listen

556
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: to your favorite podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class

557
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: is a production of Heart Radio. For more podcasts from

558
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

559
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H