WEBVTT - Mark Mothersbaugh 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.480 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.680 My guest today is the one and only Mark mothers Boy. 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.520 You know him from Devo, you know him from soundtracks. Mark. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.160 Great to have you on the podcast. 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:24.959 Wonderful to be here, Bob. 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.560 Let's start with this documentary. How did this come to happen? 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:30.040 The one on Netflix? 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.920 Well, it was kind of a long process actually, to 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.199 be honest with you. Started quite a few years ago 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:39.360 and didn't start off as a documentary. 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:40.120 At first. 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:42.760 I thought I was just doing I was going to 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:48.960 archive some recordings of shows like the very first Devo 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:54.280 show where we were sextet Devo, and then and then 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.400 a year later another show, and I just wanted to 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.840 put those on and I was doing an archival film 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:02.840 and it turned into it to a documentary. It went 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.120 through a number of different people and then it worked 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.959 its way over to our our man, who took over 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.759 and made it what it is. 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.039 So why did you not do it yourself? Why did 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:18.080 you bring in a director? 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:25.440 You know it there would have been within within the band, 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.039 there would have been half a dozen within the band, 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:30.720 and the people that worked with Devo, there would have 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.520 been at least a half a dozen totally different documentaries. 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.920 So the idea of having somebody outside of us, kind 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:44.800 of having an independent observation of everything, and and and uh, 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:49.680 I'll look at it seemed like a desirable way to go. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.560 Okay, so the guy puts it together. You still have 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:55.160 six different opinions, right. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.920 Yeah, yeah, you still have all the opinions, but it's 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.280 like it's not any one of them taking over because 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:06.680 we could still end up with Yeah, yeah, you know, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.600 we could still end up with a half dozen more 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.160 documentaries if we could talk each other into doing it. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.200 So are you happy with the final product? Yeah? 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:24.560 Yeah, relieved. You know, it's it's like, I think all 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.680 the most important points were hit upon, and I think 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.880 it it's I think it came out really well in 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.600 the way that I think it would have. People that 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:40.040 don't know anything about Devo might might find it interesting 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.280 and and it might make them curious to learn more 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:43.960 about the band. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:49.239 So since it's been out, have you felt any difference? 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.080 Have you felt, you know, more acceptance of growing audience 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.640 or we live in this modern world. You put it 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:57.799 out there and who the hell knows? 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:03.520 Yeah, you know, it's a combination of things have been 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:08.160 happening this year. We've been playing a lot of shows, 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:14.200 and we were touring with B fifty two's actually, and 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:18.400 I think, I think just what I've noticed is that 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.920 kids seem to be they have a lot more information 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:23.960 than I did when I was a kid. You know. 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.079 It's it's like I would go to a record store 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.200 and i would go past the Elvis Presley and the 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.200 Frank Sinatra stand up cutouts, and I'd work my way 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.040 back to the rock section, and then I'd go to 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.240 a cardboard box that said other stuff, and then I'd 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.800 go in there and I'd find capt'n beef Heart and 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:48.960 Wildman Fisher and things like that. And now kids on 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.160 their cell phone, they have so much power and they 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.760 have the ability to find out so many things so 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:59.880 instantaneously and easy. It's it's it's impressive. It's it's like 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.360 we've been playing shows this year. I'm probably the documentary 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.120 had a lot to do with it. We've been playing 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:09.360 shows where instead of just being a bunch of people 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.560 my age that were slightly younger that were at the 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.520 shows in the past, there was like a lot of 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.720 kids there, there's been a lot of kids at our 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:23.360 show and surprisingly they're singing along. So it's like, you know, 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.000 leave it to the Internet to help out on some things. 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.080 Okay, if you talk the very late sixties early seventies, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.560 Captain Beefheart starts with Safe as Milk goes on make 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.760 records with Zappa, while men Fisher, you're living in Ohio 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.040 FM underground rock in Ohio, the snart to start as 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.400 early as it does in La and San Francisco. Rolling 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.800 Stone comes out in sixty seven, but it's not necessarily available. 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.520 How did you know about those records? 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.719 Well, see, that's what I'm saying. It was like a 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:03.479 lot harder back then. You know, you had to you know, 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.440 it was like craw Daddy if you saw the rare 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.800 copy of a craw Daddy and then finally you know, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:14.080 like a rolling Stone coming along. But but you know, 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:19.760 it really had to do with radio. Also, DJs were 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:25.320 very important back then because DJs, as you probably remember 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.160 on FM in particular, they were given a lot of freedom. 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:34.440 And you know, i'd be I'd go I'd hear something 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.080 on the radio where a DJ would say, Okay, tomorrow, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.360 I'm going to play you. There's a band called led Zeppelin, 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.360 and I'm going to play their whole album NonStop with 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.919 no commercials at eight o'clock tomorrow night, and you'd listen 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:51.080 to the whole album and you'd hear this productions level 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:57.120 that had never been reached before. And you know you 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.839 had to depend upon them, you know, you depended upon DJs. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.200 Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You grow up 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.360 in Ohio. You spent a lot of time in California. 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.680 Needless say, the Internet and cable television has levined the 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.599 playing field. What was it like growing up in Ohio 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:17.080 in the fifties and sixties. 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:24.080 Yeah, it was a cultural wasteland. We were in an 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:29.440 industrial city Akron. It was you know, gray and overcast, 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:35.440 and everything in the city centered around making tires to 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.280 they'd put them on trains and send them up to 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:42.520 Detroit for the cars back in those days, and and 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.919 and so like, the whole city just was centered around 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:53.400 this one industry. And you know, there were you know, 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.520 one of the things that were good about being an 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:03.159 Akron is that we were insulated, and we were in 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.559 a you know, we were in a basement, an actor 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:12.560 and writing music together to entertain ourselves. And and you know, 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.640 like if you were a band in New York at 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:18.880 the same time in the the mid or late seventies. Uh, 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.440 you know, you'd you'd go, Okay, I saw the drummer 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.280 left Talking Heads, and now he's playing with Blondie or whatever. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.360 You know, you'd watch these bands develop. And by being 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:33.120 an acron that whole length of time, we had a 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:38.239 chance to marinate and to to kind of fully form 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:43.160 before we ended up, you know, driving to New York 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.600 and and uh performing. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.960 So how did your family end up the acra? Oh? 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.480 It was they were blue collar, my both sides of 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.400 my family. They and they came out of coal mining towns, 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.600 one from Pennsylvania and one from West Virginia. And during 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.480 the depression, they just needed to be able to get 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.360 food for the kids. And so because coal mines weren't 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.680 doing anything, so they they all ended up in So 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:18.480 both families ended up in in Akron working for the 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:25.080 rubber industry, working at Firestone and Goodyear, and I was 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.320 living in I was you know, I was around those 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.040 kind of that kind of lifestyle. 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.160 Then, you know, well, how many generations are your family 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.520 in America. 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:41.680 My grandfather on my mother's side was born in Switzerland, 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:49.320 and my great grandfather on my other side was born 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.480 in Germany. I'm pretty sure. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.560 So you've grown up in the fifties, you're going to school. 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.000 What kind of kid are you? 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:08.560 I was kind of out of place when I When 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.960 I first started school, there were five kids in our family, 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.599 and I'd walk to this elementary school and I remember 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:21.240 in second grade my teacher saying, Okay, Mark, add up 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.520 the numbers on the board, and I go, what's a board? 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:25.720 And every all the other kids would be laughing and 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:27.880 that she'd go, all right, smart guy, go sit in 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:29.880 the corner. And I'd be like, how do the other 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.760 kids know the right answer to that? And then at 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:34.560 the end of my second year of school, I was 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:39.480 just turned eight, I think, and and it was almost 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:44.640 second grade was almost over. She was, she said to 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.640 my parents. She saw me trying to read a book 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.880 from about six inches away, and she asked my parents 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.240 if they ever had my eyes checked, and they said no, 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:58.319 and they found out I was legally blind. And I 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.320 remember a day where I went came out of an 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:06.559 optometrist office and I looked around me and I saw 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.920 clouds and I saw birds, and I saw the sun 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.160 for the first time of my life. I'd never seen 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.760 telephone wires. I'd never seen the roof of a house 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.360 except in pictures and books, and it was astounding. I 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.760 saw trees, and I recognized them from books because I 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.079 had only ever seen them in books or in photos. 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.880 I'd never seen them in real life. And it was 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.600 like this amazing experience. And it was my very last 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.880 week of second grade, and my teacher was standing behind me, 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.680 and I was drawing a tree because I was so 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.200 excited about having seen them for the first time, and 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.200 she said, you draw trees better than me, And it 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:49.640 was the first nice thing that that teacher had ever 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:53.240 said to me. She'd, you know, corporal punishment was like 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.120 accepted back in those days, so she'd paddled me a 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.840 number of times in front of the other students and 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.360 things for being a smart ass. But I just I 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.640 was legally blind, and and I getting glasses was this 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:12.680 amazing thing, but it affected the trajectory of my life 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:20.319 through school. I was the littlest kid in my class, 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:26.720 and I had a big head and a tiny body, 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.960 and I had glasses that looked like pop bottles, you know, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.640 on the bottom the lenses were like pop bottles glasses, 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:39.840 So it was like a cartoon character. And I don't know. 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:44.720 I pretty much fought with everybody between you know, first 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.760 grade and twelfth grade, and. 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.720 Okay, there are five kids in your family, how many girls? 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:53.920 How many boys? Were you in the hierarchy. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:57.920 I was the first one to hit the ground. And 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.920 then my brother Bob, who played guitar with Devo to 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.400 this day, was was second. My brother Jim, who was 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:12.000 our first drummer and really had a lot to do 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.120 with affecting the esthetic of what Devo is and was 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.760 because I was looking for sounds even back then in 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.880 the seventies, I was looking for sounds that related to 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.120 what was going on and in the world. And he 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:31.160 was he was He had kind of an electronic acumen. 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:36.319 And then it was my sister Sue, who as soon 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:37.959 as she got out of school, she was like, I'm 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:39.920 getting out of here and she went to UH, I 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:45.720 think Arizona to become a uh she a park ranger, 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.600 and she just she was she she really loved nature 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.160 and UH and went there. And then my youngest sister 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:59.400 stayed in Ohio and she's an artist and we talk 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:05.840 at at different times. I see Bob almost daily. And 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.120 then everybody else I see less often because they're in 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:10.440 different parts of the country. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:17.320 Okay, so once you got glasses that you could see, 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:19.880 did you do better in school? 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:27.240 Well, yeah, to a certain extent because I could read 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.520 things and I could I could read the board. I 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:35.160 knew what a board was after that. But yeah, I 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:41.040 just yeah, I still I still struggled with with my 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.320 vision because I had to correct it so that it 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:50.520 was twenty twenty. It also warped it into being a 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:55.680 fish eye lens. So every day I could see things, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.280 and but they were all like like I was looking 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.079 through a fish eye ends for quite a few years, 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.959 even up until I got cataract surgery about six or 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:13.480 seven years ago. And so school was yeah, school was 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:20.760 something that that I was confused about and and you know, 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.840 but I did love art and I loved drawing, and 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:30.440 I really became obsessed with that, and it was kind 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:34.440 of like my main love in life until I saw 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:39.720 the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and then I was certain 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:41.000 I was going to be in a band. I was 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:46.840 absolutely certain. Like I guess, was it sixty four? Yeah, yeah, 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.480 So if it was before May, I was thirteen. If 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.880 it was after May, I was fourteen, and from then 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:54.400 on I was sure I was going to be in 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.280 a band for the up until I got in a band. 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.120 Okay, let's let's just go back do a little clean 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:13.480 up work. Usually the oldest kid all the families hopes 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.120 and dreams, and the pressure is I'm the oldest kid. 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:20.680 Is that an accurate description in your case? I think. 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.680 I think it was slightly different with me because they 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:28.320 were also guilty that they that I was eight years 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.000 old and they'd never tested my eyes and found out 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:33.800 that it was a miracle that I was able to 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.760 walk to school and cross the street and not get 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:41.000 hit by a car for two years. Uh So, so 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.720 there was some of that, yeah, But but I also 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:45.680 had stuff like my mom said, you know, when you 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.040 were a barn, your head was so large, we were 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:54.320 concerned that maybe you were a hydrocephalic child, and you know, 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.440 so I had all those kind of of things to 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.760 deal with, and then i'd probably my brothers and sisters 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.120 were all smarter than me, if you want to, you know, 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.680 I'm a If we all would have taken a test 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:10.800 at the same time, they probably would have all scored 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:11.440 higher than me. 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:13.800 I just. 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:17.520 They you know, my dad was kind of like this 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:21.760 very optimistic all America, you know, American guy that believed 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.840 in the American dream. And he was like, anybody can 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.000 be whatever they want to be in this world. You know, 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.400 we were in America. You can do what you want 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.440 to do. And you know, he was very he was optimistic, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.720 like Tim Leary who was a friend of mine out here, 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:43.400 and and they were they were maybe my the two 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:48.560 most optimistic people I knew. And and so when I 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:53.160 said I wanted to be a musician, he was like, well, okay, 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.760 you know he's thinking, he's thinking, does that mean you'll 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:01.520 be living in the apartment above the Roger? You know, 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:03.200 what does that? What does that mean if you're in 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.399 a band. But they were they were supportive of it. 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:12.679 Okay, you're going to school because of your vision, you 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.720 play any sports, you have any friends. 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.919 Uh you know, I kind of I made friends with 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:26.520 a couple of the other kind of uh odd odd 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.840 characters there was. There was a guy named Ted who 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.320 who was a blue baby, and so he was the 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:38.240 only kid that my size. I was really small. I 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.760 think I was like eighty some pounds when I graduated 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.760 from high school. The only sport I ever got involved in. 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:54.760 Uh was wrestling because baseball, football, basketball. I was not 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.360 of the size and shape that I could have participated 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:01.280 in it anyhow. But also my vision and you know, 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.480 it's like when you if you imagine, you know, you're 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.800 looking into a doorknob and somebody throws up a football 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.399 at you throw fifty feet away and it starts off tiny, 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.040 it gets big and then it gets gigantic? Is it 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:16.840 is it when it's about two feet away from you? 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.720 So it was the whole thing with the with the 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:26.119 fish islands? I where was made sports? Kind of like 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.639 something that I never became participant in really? 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.159 So was this public school or parochial school? 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:34.960 Public school? 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.520 Okay, so you go to high school? Are you so 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.399 far off the radar screen? No one even knows you're there? 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.320 We are they saying, oh, that's that weird guy, or 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.960 that's the yard guy, or people pick on you. Where 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.359 were you in the hierarchy in high school? Uh? 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.120 Pretty far down at the bottom. I was like, uh, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.560 I was the Uh you know when I got to 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:05.480 high schoo we had just moved into the suburbs. Well 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.280 not even really this it's kind of more like a 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:13.240 rural area just outside of the city limits, and my 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.840 dad bought this place. It was like a green acres farm, 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.240 you know, tiny. It was like five acres or five 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:22.960 and a half acres, but had a little stable, just 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.240 big enough to hold a couple of horses, and had 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:30.399 an orchard, and he grew some stuff there because he 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:36.040 kind of had a romantic notion about farming and farms 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:40.359 and getting out of the city. So I went to 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.520 a whole new school system for high school, and it 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.080 just started off wrong. I said something to somebody and 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.320 they punched me, and then I became the kick me guy, 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.000 the guy with the sign okay. 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.119 Prior to the Beatles, was there music in the home? 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:03.000 Did your parents play records? Did anybody play instruments? Take 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:04.480 any piano lessons? Any of that? 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:12.240 Oh? Yeah, For about five years before I saw the Beatles. 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:20.240 After I had gotten my glasses, I started taking keyboard lessons. 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.240 My parents wanted me to be the church organist someday. 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.480 They were hoping that, and I just thought music was 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.040 something invented to torture me. I really didn't like it 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:35.520 at all, didn't care for it. And missus Fox would 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:37.880 come over once a week for two dollars. She would 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:44.440 give me a keyboard lesson and she sang along while 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.000 I played, And so my family would all be in 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.400 the next room. I'd be in I think we had 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:54.399 this little small Hammond organ in the dining room. And 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.040 then right now I was right between the kitchen and 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:02.760 the living room, and I remember trying to get my parents. 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:04.680 They'd all be sitting there trying to watch the TV 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.760 in the next room, and Missus Fox would be singing 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:12.480 while I played, and she sang really out of tune. 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.000 It was great, And so I'd played really slow and 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.680 loud on purpose, so she'd even sing louder, and she'd 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:28.320 be like the falling le drift by my win. It was. 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:30.159 It was awesome. I would I'd be watching in the 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.399 other room and they'd all be huddling closer to the TV, 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:38.760 and I was hoping that they would say you're done, 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:44.680 But instead the Beatles came along and it and I went, 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.679 That's why I've spent my whole life being tortured learning 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:52.400 how to play music. And so I entered a new, 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:54.600 a new direction. 0:21:54.760 --> 0:22:00.480 Then, Okay, were you listening to the radio? Will you 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.520 muse it fluid or is just your saw? The Beatles 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:05.160 in Ed Sullivan and you go, holy fuck. 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.720 Well, the radio that was being played in my house 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:17.280 was AM Whacker Radio, and they played country music, which 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:23.560 I wasn't interested in. They did play novelty songs, so 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.600 every now and then I'd get interested in something like 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.720 it's a bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini. I 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.320 think that's the first forty five I ever bought. And 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:38.159 then Purple people Eater and stuff like that I was 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:44.040 interested in. But my dad, in World War Two, he 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:47.639 was a radio tech mission and he came back to 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.240 the house and he kept a little workshop down in 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:57.440 the basement and he built stereo amplifiers and electronic things. 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.560 He built drones. Believe it or not, he built drones 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:02.960 and we'd take them out on the weekend and fly 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:07.560 them and crash them and lose them. But he built 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:11.960 h stereo and I remember he bought these stereophonic albums. 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:14.760 I think it was either Capital or RCA that put 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:16.480 them out back in the day, and they'd had a 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.480 hypodermic needle on the front of them because they were 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:23.560 extra pumped up high fidelity and they were stereo, and 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:25.879 they were actually kind of some of them were binaural. 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.760 You know, binural was really popular when stereo first came 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:34.880 out because it really separated, you know, like you could 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:39.280 have a voice on one side of the room and 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.679 the drums on the other side, and and people use 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:47.280 that a lot. I still listen back to, like, like, 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:50.159 if you ever listened to the Revolver album. On the 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:53.720 original recording of it, they used a lot of binural recordings, 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:58.560 so so like paperback Writer, you can hear somebody going 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:03.080 while they're up to it. You hear him going pay 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:11.960 paper paperback, right, it's so awesome if you ever listened 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:15.480 to Revolver, But don't do the remixes or the re 0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:20.720 releases because they corrected the binaural stereo, so don't listen 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:22.760 to that. But my dad would play. He'd set us 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:24.560 on one side of the living room, all the kids, 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:27.400 and then he'd put the speakers for the stereo on 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.560 the far end of each corner of the room, and 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:33.160 we'd listen to a train chugging going through the room, 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:35.240 starting on one side, going to the other side of 0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:38.000 the room. And he loved all that stuff. 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:45.040 Okay, you see the beales Sunday Night, February sixty four. 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:50.360 You instantly say that's my gig. What action do you take? 0:24:52.760 --> 0:25:00.919 Well, I looked around for people that were playing instruments, 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:07.360 and there was an accordion shop in Akron where they 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:11.360 were you could also buy guitars like they had Italian 0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:15.479 Galante guitars there, and so so kids came in and 0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:18.280 they got a guitar and they took guitar lessons and 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:23.600 there was nothing I could do at first. It took 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:28.359 about a year of me persistently pestering my dad for 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:32.879 him to buy me the most inexpensive bottom of the 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:37.480 line for FISA organ but which was a couple hundred 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:40.560 bucks back in those days. But we finally got one, 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:43.480 and that's when I went out looking for people to 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:45.960 be in a band with, and so it started off. 0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:48.360 I got in a band with these guys that were 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:53.439 taking guitar lessons at this accordion shop, and that was 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:56.560 the first band I was in. I forget what we 0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:59.280 called it. We might have called it Purple Haze, I 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:03.840 don't know for sure, or the Shags or something. We 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:06.879 just took a name that we heard already somewhere. I 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:08.320 didn't even have anything to do with that. 0:26:09.200 --> 0:26:12.200 Okay, for those of us who lived through the era. 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:15.560 We picked up instruments, we got together with other people, 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:18.440 We played in the living room. Then there was always 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:22.439 somebody who said we have to get gigs. Okay, So 0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:26.000 did your bands ever play outside the living room, the garage, 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:29.240 basement wherever you're rehearsing rarely? 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:35.399 I remember we played on Front Street in Cargo Paul's, 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:37.919 which was like a community right next to Akron for 0:26:38.520 --> 0:26:41.119 there are one hundred and fiftieth anniversary or something, and 0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:46.480 they had a little like foot and a half high 0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:54.160 trailer that we all stood on and are. Our concept was, Okay, 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:56.359 here's what our outfit's going to be, because you know, 0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.720 we couldn't afford like a to go buy suits like 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:07.440 the or somebody, all those English bands, so our our 0:27:07.720 --> 0:27:14.760 our concept was we'd untuck our shirts. That was and 0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:18.200 I remember it because our bass player, halfway through the 0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:20.760 set of his parents showed up and he stopped playing 0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:22.960 bass in the song to tuck his shirt back in 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:27.639 and then start playing it. Ah, you went disappointed, but 0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:30.240 that was so we did. There were very few places 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:35.119 to play an Akron for for a band that was 0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:50.400 as much of a novus as us at first. 0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:48.760 See graduated from high school. 0:27:48.800 --> 0:27:54.159 Then what I'm graduated and by some miracle, uh you know, 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:58.840 I mean my family nobody had ever talked about going 0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:01.480 to college. I had never thought about it. I never 0:28:01.520 --> 0:28:04.400 thought that was like something I would get to do. 0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:07.159 But I had an art teacher that took pity on 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:11.960 me in high school, and she'd put my artwork in 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:18.280 various local you know, like community art shows, and I'd 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:21.760 won first praise a couple times for pen and ink 0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:25.560 artworks I'd done. And so there was a program at 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:30.480 Kent State back in the late sixties where if there 0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:36.439 were kids that were had some modicum of talent in 0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:41.480 some particular area, but they were like probably not going 0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:44.080 to go to college, they had a program where they 0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:47.880 could give you a fifty percent discount. And she signed 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:50.360 me up for that and didn't even tell me, and 0:28:51.120 --> 0:28:56.880 I got it. I got to I got a certificate 0:28:56.920 --> 0:29:00.720 them Kent and they put me on this fifty percent 0:29:00.840 --> 0:29:02.800 and I could so I could get a job at 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:08.400 night and then during the day I went to school. 0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:13.160 And that was night and day different to go to college. 0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:18.040 First off, I was not like one in a class 0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:21.880 of ninety three kids that were that like all knew 0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:27.120 me as the weirdo I was, you know, at a 0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:31.000 school with like fifteen thousand kids or something at the time, 0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:35.800 and I loved it. I loved it. I could and 0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:39.080 I was. I was, you know, there as an art student, 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:44.479 and I didn't know what that even meant, to be 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:46.920 honest with you, I wasn't sure what I was taking 0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:49.600 or why. I just was. I knew I was. I 0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:51.320 knew it meant I didn't have to go to Vietnam, 0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:55.560 and that that made me happy because I remember thinking 0:29:55.560 --> 0:29:59.920 about Vietnam and watching it on TV and going there's 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:03.160 not a single Asian person I would ever want to shoot, 0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:05.920 you know, especially if it's just because they have a 0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:10.920 government I don't like, you know, It's like I couldn't 0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:16.520 imagine doing that. And so going to Kent was a salvation. 0:30:16.800 --> 0:30:21.479 But I liked school for the first time. I loved school. 0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:28.400 And I found out about something called printmaking, and that was, 0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:31.120 you know, long before computers. You know, it was like 0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:34.479 super high tech, this thing where you could like have 0:30:34.520 --> 0:30:36.360 an idea for a piece of art and draw it 0:30:36.720 --> 0:30:39.560 and then put it on screens and then print it 0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:44.080 and do multiple copies of it. And I was really 0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:51.160 fascinated with that. I loved printmaking, and so early on 0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:53.720 I found out that that like at three point thirty 0:30:53.760 --> 0:30:56.560 when the school bell rang, all the other kids would 0:30:56.600 --> 0:31:00.160 run off to their sorority houses and fraternity houses or 0:31:00.160 --> 0:31:03.120 wherever they lived, and they'd go to the bars or whatever, 0:31:03.160 --> 0:31:05.920 and they'd be done for the day. And that to 0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:08.640 me just span that the art department was totally empty, 0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:12.920 and I could go into the printmaking department and I 0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:16.680 could burn a screen print a color. By the time 0:31:16.680 --> 0:31:19.760 I cleaned the screen and burned another screen, the first 0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:22.800 color was dry, I could print another color, and I 0:31:22.840 --> 0:31:25.960 could by three in the morning, I could have a 0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:28.239 finished piece of art. I didn't have to queue up 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:31.480 every day and spend two weeks to do one piece 0:31:31.480 --> 0:31:33.040 of art. I could do a piece of art every 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:37.960 single day. And so I got into doing this artwork 0:31:38.280 --> 0:31:41.680 at night at Kent, and I did things in a 0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:46.120 smaller size because of my vision. The fish eye lens 0:31:46.120 --> 0:31:49.880 made it so it was really hard to do to 0:31:50.040 --> 0:31:52.720 hold on to perspective, like when I was drawing if 0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:55.760 it was a big piece of art, whereas if I 0:31:55.840 --> 0:32:01.240 did something smaller and card size, I could hold the 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.480 perspective you know, with with my with my glasses, and 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:08.280 so I was printing these small things and I was 0:32:08.320 --> 0:32:12.160 in the decals. I don't know, maybe some making uh, 0:32:12.360 --> 0:32:15.360 plastic models. When I was a kid, I liked putting 0:32:15.360 --> 0:32:18.320 the taking the decals and putting them on the planes 0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:23.280 and the cars and the stuff. And and there was 0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:26.520 a someone who kind of saved my life in my 0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:30.760 high school days was a guy named Guilardi. He was 0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:35.080 a TV personality who was on He was a weather 0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:39.280 man during the day at w e ws UH in Cleveland, 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:43.120 but at night he had a TV show and he 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:48.160 wore like a fright wig, and he had a pair 0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:50.960 of sunglasses with one lens, and he had a mustache 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:53.720 and a goat tea, and he looked like a beatnick, 0:32:53.840 --> 0:32:56.840 and he talked like a beatnik, and he made up 0:32:56.840 --> 0:33:00.200 his own terminology, like he'd say things like cool with 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:04.600 the boom booms and purple caniff and he had all 0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:07.120 these phrases that he made up that if you were 0:33:07.280 --> 0:33:10.480 like a kid that didn't have a you know, a 0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:13.560 driver's license, because you're fourteen or fifteen and you're sitting 0:33:13.600 --> 0:33:16.520 at home by yourself on a winter day, you just 0:33:17.000 --> 0:33:21.200 turn him on and he played old B movies, C movies, 0:33:21.240 --> 0:33:26.880 and D movies. He played like the most funky, mostly 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:30.040 black and white films. They probably were all black and white, 0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:31.840 I think. I don't think we had a color TV. 0:33:33.760 --> 0:33:37.360 And and he would sit on a stool in front 0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:39.320 of a blue screen. And he must have got this 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:42.320 from being a weather man, because he would do this 0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:46.560 thing where like halfway through like fifty Million Years BC 0:33:47.080 --> 0:33:51.840 or a movie like that, Gulardi would like jump onto 0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:53.880 the blue screen and he'd be in the movie with 0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:57.080 caveman that we're trying to pick, yeah, caveman trying to 0:33:57.080 --> 0:34:00.640 pick fruit off of a tree, or they be running 0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:04.080 from a lizard that had a horn glute on its head, 0:34:04.120 --> 0:34:07.000 you know that was giant and chasing them, and he'd 0:34:07.000 --> 0:34:09.600 be running with them and he'd fall over right as 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:12.160 the lizard got there, and stuff like that. And to me, 0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:16.880 that was like, how's he how's he allowed to do that? 0:34:17.840 --> 0:34:20.960 He's he's breaking the rules, he's busting through a wall. 0:34:21.320 --> 0:34:23.560 The fact that he was like that, he was like 0:34:24.840 --> 0:34:30.520 you know, like interacting and making fun of Hollywood movies 0:34:30.640 --> 0:34:33.040 blew my mind. And I just thought he was the 0:34:33.120 --> 0:34:38.279 coolest person that ever existed. And even up until I 0:34:38.360 --> 0:34:42.200 met him for one brief second. They in high school, 0:34:42.200 --> 0:34:44.560 they did this thing that I would never have gone to, 0:34:44.840 --> 0:34:49.600 but it was called donkey basketball, where for charity, the 0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:53.759 TV station would send people from the TV you know, 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:57.840 the newsman, the weather cast or blah blah blah. They'd 0:34:57.840 --> 0:35:00.920 all come down and they'd dride donkeys in your in 0:35:00.960 --> 0:35:05.200 your basketball court. And so so the teachers in your 0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:07.680 school would do the same thing, and they'd try to 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:11.520 play basketball on donkeys, which was really stupid. But the 0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:14.239 good part about it was that Gulardi came to my 0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:18.000 high school, the place I really dreaded to ever go, 0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:22.680 and he ever. I hated that high school. But I 0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:27.160 remember after the after the game, I was walking down 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:29.239 the hallway to go to where my locker was and 0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:33.160 and get my jacket out, and I'm I'm the only 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:35.080 one in the hallway, and then this guy comes out 0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:39.239 of the the men's locker room, the dressing room for 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:45.759 you know, that's attached to the gym, and I go, oh, 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:49.920 my god, that's Gulardi. And he's walking towards me, and 0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:52.840 he's lit a cigarette and he's smoking it in the 0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:55.680 high school and I'm walking that way, and he's walking 0:35:55.719 --> 0:35:57.919 towards me and we get like about six feet away 0:35:57.960 --> 0:36:04.040 and I go Gulardi and he goes fuck you. And 0:36:04.120 --> 0:36:07.600 I remember I was like it was like I had 0:36:07.640 --> 0:36:10.279 goosebumps all over me. I went Glardi talk to me. 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:13.280 I was like totally flipped out. I was like, Glardy 0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:16.000 talk to me. That was so incredible. I could not 0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:21.960 believe it. But yeah, Ernie Anderson. He ended up coming 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:26.600 out to California and becoming a voiceover and he made 0:36:26.600 --> 0:36:29.760 a lot of money doing that, doing commercials and voiceover stuff, 0:36:29.760 --> 0:36:34.960 and his son became a filmmaker. Why was I telling 0:36:34.960 --> 0:36:35.440 you that. 0:36:35.719 --> 0:36:37.200 You were talking about printmaking? 0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:42.520 Oh yeah, okay, so so printmaking. It'd be three point 0:36:42.480 --> 0:36:45.440 thirty in the morning at am. This is like nineteen 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:49.439 sixty sixty nine, I think, is when I first found 0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:53.839 out about print making. And I made these small decals 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:57.520 and stuff, and I would be so excited about it. 0:36:58.160 --> 0:37:02.600 I'd be walking towards the parking lot where my car 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:06.000 was and on the way, I just had to do 0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:08.640 something with these decals, and I start putting them up 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:13.200 on like fire hydrants and stop signs, and sometimes on 0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:20.440 somebody's bumper and on lockers and on teacher's doors and 0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:23.480 stuff like that. I put these up, you know, like 0:37:23.560 --> 0:37:29.200 something every day. And one day I think, I'm it's 0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:35.759 sixty nine and I'm now a sophomore, first quarter sophomore, 0:37:36.880 --> 0:37:43.000 and these two older guys walk into where I'm where, 0:37:43.400 --> 0:37:47.640 into the art class I'm in, and this one guy 0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:50.319 walks up to me and he goes, are you the 0:37:50.320 --> 0:37:54.440 guy putting up pictures of astronauts holding potatoes standing on 0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:57.560 the moon? And I go, yeah, what of it? And 0:37:57.600 --> 0:38:01.239 he goes, what did potatoes mean to you? And I 0:38:01.320 --> 0:38:02.960 was like kind of shocked about it. And then we 0:38:03.000 --> 0:38:05.600 started talking and he had this whole theory about, well, 0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:08.480 potatoes are like you know, in the vegetable Kingdom, they're 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:14.760 the they're the proletariats. You know, potatoes are asymmetric, and they're 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:20.279 dirty and they lived underground and uh they uh, but 0:38:20.360 --> 0:38:23.799 they're a staple of everyone's diet. Everybody eats potatoes every day. 0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:26.000 They don't even think about it. They're eating French fries, 0:38:26.080 --> 0:38:28.680 mashed potatoes, whatever kind of potatoes. They're a staple of 0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:31.960 your diet. They're important, but but they're you know, they're 0:38:32.000 --> 0:38:35.080 just they're not elegant or beautiful, like the asparagus or 0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:38.880 the eggplant or something. And he says, and also potatoes 0:38:38.920 --> 0:38:42.719 have eyes all around, so they see everything. And we 0:38:42.800 --> 0:38:46.799 started and we started talking, and then he had a 0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:49.600 he was a grad student and he was he was 0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:51.920 he had a project he was doing for his grad 0:38:52.160 --> 0:38:55.719 class and he said, how do you make those decals? 0:38:55.760 --> 0:38:58.600 I said, God, it's easy. I use lacquer inks and 0:38:58.680 --> 0:39:02.759 blah blah blah and special paper that's water release. And 0:39:03.040 --> 0:39:05.759 he goes, could you make some for me? And I go, yeah, 0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:07.640 what do you want? He goes, I want some potato men? 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:12.719 And so I made him potato man decals and for 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:16.959 his senior graduation project, he took the decals and put 0:39:17.000 --> 0:39:19.600 them on photographs of people he didn't like them as 0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:24.080 high school and that was his grad thesis picture. But 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:29.560 it was Jerry Cassally and the thing that he said 0:39:29.560 --> 0:39:33.200 to me that was as important as all of that, 0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:39.320 as he said, you know, next quarter beginning of nineteen seventy, 0:39:39.360 --> 0:39:43.760 you should take this class. It's a conceptual art class. 0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:48.360 He goes, they've never had one kent before and it's important. 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:51.720 It's going to be important, and I think you should 0:39:52.000 --> 0:39:54.040 sign up for that class. I go, I'm only as sophomore. 0:39:54.040 --> 0:39:57.080 I don't have the credentials. He goes, it doesn't matter. 0:39:57.160 --> 0:40:00.080 This is the first year they're using computers to to 0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:04.120 assign kids classes. And you can just write in that 0:40:04.239 --> 0:40:06.799 you have all the pre records. It's just right you 0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:08.840 have them all, and then sign up for the class. 0:40:09.360 --> 0:40:12.920 So I did it, and I got signed up for 0:40:12.960 --> 0:40:18.440 a grad student class. That was the spring quarter of 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:25.840 nineteen seventy and I was in a conceptual art class 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:31.800 with Jerry and Chuck Statler, who directed the first Devo film, 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:38.360 and John Zabruckie, who came out to California and started 0:40:38.400 --> 0:40:41.320 Modern Props, which was one of the biggest prop companies 0:40:41.360 --> 0:40:48.560 out here. And it was interesting because after that I decided, well, 0:40:48.680 --> 0:40:50.279 I don't even care if I what do I care 0:40:50.320 --> 0:40:52.440 if I get a bachelor's degree aout, I'm never going 0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:54.600 to be a school teacher. I'd be terrible at that. 0:40:55.719 --> 0:40:58.279 I don't even like schools, so I don't want to 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:02.080 go back to high school. So I just started signing 0:41:02.160 --> 0:41:04.000 up for all the classes I wanted to take, and 0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:10.040 I and when I finally left Kent State, I think 0:41:10.120 --> 0:41:14.560 I had a bunch of important classes like tennis and 0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:21.880 other sports classes and art history that that I hadn't taken. 0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:26.120 So I didn't ever get to officially graduate as a 0:41:26.160 --> 0:41:28.799 bachelor degree in art because of that. But I took 0:41:28.840 --> 0:41:30.680 a lot of classes that I wanted to take, and 0:41:30.719 --> 0:41:33.400 I made sure to take printmaking classes every quarter so 0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:36.560 I could continue doing what I really loved. 0:41:38.239 --> 0:41:40.839 Okay, you go to Kent State, do you bring your 0:41:40.880 --> 0:41:41.920 fur feast of Oregon? 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:51.040 Well, yeah, And what I was doing at the time 0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:55.520 as I would go through the newspaper, like in sixty eight, 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:59.239 sixty sixty eight and sixty nine, and I was I 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:05.160 was looking for or bands that said, oh, we're a band, 0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:08.160 we need a keyboard player. We can supply the keyboard, 0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:11.040 and so if they had a keyboard, I could I 0:42:11.080 --> 0:42:14.840 could go. Uh And whether it was a jazz band 0:42:15.200 --> 0:42:17.800 or even a gospel band. I was in a couple 0:42:18.480 --> 0:42:21.799 church bands just because they had the equipment and I 0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:26.560 could I could play in them. And then you know, 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:30.480 I got a job in one band that paid my 0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:34.839 way through college on my sophomore year. They played at 0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:38.000 a strip club, and so so I just had to 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:41.840 show up at the strip club every night and play, 0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:44.680 you know, like Sly in the Family Stone and uh 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:47.840 and Deep Purple or whatever they were going to be playing. 0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:52.000 And and I was still making music, but I wanted 0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:55.680 to make my own music. Uh. When I was in school, 0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:59.960 I I I saw movies I'd never seen before, you know, 0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:06.480 like I saw things by Enio Morricone his music, and 0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:15.919 I just heard all these different artists that were experimental. 0:43:16.000 --> 0:43:19.680 And and I saw my first synthesizer when I was 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:25.839 at Kent State, and I thought, I want to write 0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:30.759 music for the seventies. You know, I'm going to write 0:43:30.880 --> 0:43:34.880 I mean, you know that I was looking back at fifty. 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:37.759 I always wished I was born fifty years earlier. I 0:43:37.800 --> 0:43:41.840 wished I would have been a teenager in Europe during 0:43:42.080 --> 0:43:46.600 the twenties and early thirties, back back when Bauhaus and 0:43:47.600 --> 0:43:55.000 Surrealism and Dadaism and Futurism especially. I mean, although I 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:59.520 didn't like their politics, their concepts about music were amazing. 0:44:00.040 --> 0:44:03.440 Remember you know, ballet mechanique and things like that. But 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:07.799 but the Futurists, they were saying, the modern orchestra does 0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:11.400 not contain the instruments capable of making sounds to represent 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:14.759 industrial culture. And this is like in the twenties, and 0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:19.160 so they were they were using like fog horns and 0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:22.839 they would spin a bicycle wheel and and U you know, 0:44:23.400 --> 0:44:27.880 play it with a with a drumstick or something, and 0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:31.200 they were I love that idea of just saying goodbye 0:44:31.280 --> 0:44:35.879 to contemporary instruments and looking for something new, and technology 0:44:35.880 --> 0:44:39.239 had brought this synthesizer along. I saw this guy, Morton Sebotnik, 0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:42.440 came to Kent State and he played a show and 0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:44.920 I just stood there right next to him, mesmerized the 0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:49.759 whole time watching him play. And I was like, how 0:44:49.800 --> 0:44:53.160 do I get one of those? And I thought it 0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:56.040 would never happen, you know, because I had no money. 0:44:56.560 --> 0:45:01.320 I mean, I remember at that time. I remember thinking, 0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:06.960 like cars, they're just a They're just, you know, a 0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:09.840 waste of money. I said, you know, I said, anybody 0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:11.840 that spends more than one hundred and fifty dollars on 0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:15.319 a car is a sucker. I said, you can get 0:45:15.320 --> 0:45:17.400 a car that can drive you anywhere for one hundred 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:20.120 and fifty bucks. And I remember saying that to my 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:23.239 friend and he was like, well, but you don't have 0:45:23.239 --> 0:45:28.200 a rear window on the passenger side of your car. 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:30.440 And I go well that's yeah, But I just I 0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:32.759 can cover that up with a piece of cardboard when 0:45:32.800 --> 0:45:36.200 it's raining, you know. And I said, the car's only 0:45:36.239 --> 0:45:38.880 one hundred and fifty bucks. I can drive everywhere. So 0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:42.480 I'd been in all these different bands, and I mean 0:45:42.600 --> 0:45:44.839 even one of the bands I was in during that 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:47.680 time period was Chrissy Hein. It was the first band 0:45:47.719 --> 0:45:51.160 she was ever in. She was singing and there was 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:55.479 an older guy that was writing music and he wrote 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:59.000 the songs and we played them and she sang and 0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:03.520 she was very shy, sullen, very sullen and very shy. 0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:08.839 And but we were in a band together before uh 0:46:10.480 --> 0:46:21.560 start a devo. Okay, So the drummer from that band 0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:25.160 that I was in with, Chrissy Hin he called me 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:29.040 up one day. I was like a sophomore, or maybe 0:46:29.080 --> 0:46:33.880 I was a junior now, and he said, hey, Mark, 0:46:34.040 --> 0:46:35.879 how would you like to have a HAMM and B three. 0:46:36.000 --> 0:46:39.440 I go, that's some possible. They cost fifteen hundred dollars. 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:42.200 I don't have any money. He goes, how would you 0:46:42.239 --> 0:46:46.120 like to have your own synthesizer? I go, that could 0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:49.319 never happen. They don't even have I don't even know 0:46:49.320 --> 0:46:52.759 if there are any synthesizers in Ohio, you know, and 0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:56.279 he goes, I got introduced you to these guys. I 0:46:56.480 --> 0:47:00.719 just I just met these guys. They're Vietnam Vets and 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:04.440 they went to Vietnam and I did. I came over. 0:47:04.520 --> 0:47:06.360 I met these guys. They wanted to start a band, 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:09.800 and but they were all sport guys. They were all football, 0:47:09.880 --> 0:47:14.919 basketball players, and they they you know, they they they 0:47:15.320 --> 0:47:17.879 they didn't wait to be drafted. They they joined up, 0:47:17.960 --> 0:47:20.680 you know, because they wanted, you know, they were they 0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:26.240 were they wanted to protect America from from communism, and 0:47:26.320 --> 0:47:29.680 so they went over to Vietnam. They did a lot 0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:34.640 of LSD and they killed people. And they came back 0:47:34.840 --> 0:47:37.680 and they were like, what just happened? What did we 0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:41.000 just do? And they weren't sure what they had what 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:47.160 that was all about. And uh, they said, well, let's 0:47:47.160 --> 0:47:49.080 start a band. But none of them could play an instrument. 0:47:49.239 --> 0:47:51.279 But they all were getting money from the government because 0:47:51.280 --> 0:47:54.040 they had all been in in uh you know, in 0:47:54.120 --> 0:47:58.560 the in the military, and they all had jobs. So 0:47:58.600 --> 0:48:01.720 they they were hiring people to be in a band 0:48:01.760 --> 0:48:05.279 that they would put together. And so this drummer, they 0:48:05.320 --> 0:48:08.960 gave him a house and a car and and me. 0:48:09.160 --> 0:48:10.840 They said, well, you can move into the attic. So 0:48:10.880 --> 0:48:12.920 I moved into the attic at their at this house 0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:15.479 that they had in downtown Akron, kind of a really 0:48:15.520 --> 0:48:25.880 funky place. But we went to uh the Mogu, the 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:33.799 original Mogue company in outside of Buffalo. It wasn't that 0:48:33.840 --> 0:48:39.560 far from Buffalo, New York. And we drove there and 0:48:41.360 --> 0:48:44.120 you know, we stopped and it was a farm with 0:48:44.239 --> 0:48:47.879 a gigantic barn. And we went into the barn and 0:48:47.920 --> 0:48:51.760 there were these lofts that that looked there were these 0:48:52.280 --> 0:48:56.000 tiers of wooden racks that might have held farm here 0:48:56.040 --> 0:49:00.319 at one time, or bales of hay. And they had 0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:04.920 mini mogush. They had like maybe one hundred minimugs that 0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:08.359 were in process of being built by hand right there 0:49:08.400 --> 0:49:13.799 and in New York, in this little rural I mean 0:49:13.840 --> 0:49:16.840 to me, I thought I was in like an outer space, 0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:20.640 you know, laboratory or something. When I saw this electronics 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:23.120 and I saw this stuff, it was like it was 0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:25.759 like mind blowing. And we got a mini Mogue and 0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:27.480 we brought it back to Akron. Ohio. 0:49:27.719 --> 0:49:29.560 You got you gotta tell me you remember how much 0:49:29.560 --> 0:49:30.120 you paid for it? 0:49:31.680 --> 0:49:32.000 Oh? 0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:37.239 It was fourteen hundred bucks they were, which you know, 0:49:37.440 --> 0:49:39.920 now you can buy electronic gear cheaper than that, but 0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:45.120 those since now, to get one of those since some 0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:48.040 you know, the first couple hundred would it would cost you, 0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:51.160 I don't know, ten thousand bucks or five thousand dollars 0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:52.240 for one of them, but well. 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:55.719 I guess. So these Vietnam vets laid down the fourteen hundred. 0:49:56.040 --> 0:50:00.880 Yeah, yeah, they bought the synth and and all I 0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:02.920 had to do was come home and write music at 0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:04.880 the end of the day of going to school. It 0:50:04.960 --> 0:50:08.560 was like it was like it was like amazing. I 0:50:08.600 --> 0:50:13.360 couldn't believe it. It was. It was great. And so I 0:50:14.520 --> 0:50:16.799 was listening to all different kinds of music back then, 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:24.719 and I remember I heard spiders from Mars and that 0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:27.760 that to me, was really impressive. I really said, well, 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:30.239 this is what I want to be. I want to 0:50:30.239 --> 0:50:32.320 be an artist. I want to be an artist that 0:50:32.680 --> 0:50:37.040 makes music. And I kept listening to music, and I 0:50:37.080 --> 0:50:41.480 remember hearing the first Roxy album and I'd been playing 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:45.200 with synthesizers for about about a year at this point, 0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:49.560 and it was all right. The lyrics were the best 0:50:49.600 --> 0:50:53.479 part of the album. I was thinking, you know, and 0:50:53.520 --> 0:50:58.160 then you know, songs like Inflatable Dolly and kind of interesting. 0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:03.760 It was like Bryan's kind of darkest, most arty album. 0:51:04.000 --> 0:51:06.360 And then I got to this throwaway song called the 0:51:06.560 --> 0:51:10.360 Editions of You, and it was just like this song 0:51:10.400 --> 0:51:16.080 where they gave everybody a solo, like like like if 0:51:16.080 --> 0:51:18.040 you were a band playing at a nightclub or something. 0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:21.680 They gave everybody these extended solos in the middle of 0:51:21.680 --> 0:51:25.160 the song and I'm like, just listening to it. It's okay, 0:51:25.239 --> 0:51:28.400 it's and then all of a sudden, the synths started 0:51:29.040 --> 0:51:33.880 and this guy's playing a synthesizer, and it was like, definitely, 0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:39.840 it was like a moment where I went that that's it. 0:51:40.080 --> 0:51:43.239 This guy, whoever this guy is, he knows how to 0:51:43.280 --> 0:51:48.960 make synth sounds that are unique and that haven't no 0:51:49.000 --> 0:51:51.000 one's ever heard him before, and he was playing it 0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:53.160 in a way that was unique and that no one 0:51:53.160 --> 0:51:55.799 had ever played it since before or played it because 0:51:55.840 --> 0:51:59.800 I mean there was people like Rick Wakeman and Emerson, 0:52:00.160 --> 0:52:03.439 you know that we're playing like they made They made 0:52:03.560 --> 0:52:09.400 like synthesizers sound like glorified organs or calliopes or something. 0:52:10.320 --> 0:52:15.160 They used really silly sounds with the since they didn't 0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:19.239 really know what to do with them. And I heard 0:52:19.280 --> 0:52:23.520 the solo by Eno, Brian Eno in this song, and 0:52:23.560 --> 0:52:27.640 it was incredible and it totally helped me turn my 0:52:27.719 --> 0:52:31.680 world upside down into find a direction to how to 0:52:31.719 --> 0:52:36.320 look for sound and how to how to experiment with sense. 0:52:36.520 --> 0:52:43.320 And so right about the same time this is all happening, 0:52:43.440 --> 0:52:46.200 is right about the same time, there's you know, we're 0:52:46.239 --> 0:52:51.759 at Kent State. It's April in nineteen seventy May. And 0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:56.799 you know, I felt in Kent State, I felt empowered. 0:52:56.840 --> 0:52:59.960 I felt like what I had to say made a difference. 0:53:00.080 --> 0:53:02.080 You know, there was a student union and people would 0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:04.760 go protest the war, or they would go protest different 0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:08.040 things going on in the world, and or they talk 0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:12.360 about them, you know, they talk about things. And I 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:16.719 thought what I had to say made a difference. And 0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:21.440 so when they started talking about the United States is 0:53:21.520 --> 0:53:26.759 now secretly invading Cambodia and we've got to stop that, 0:53:26.840 --> 0:53:29.000 We've got to send a message to Washington, d C. 0:53:30.760 --> 0:53:34.800 I joined in the protests, and so did my brother Bob, 0:53:35.000 --> 0:53:38.120 and so did Jerry, who I just kind of barely 0:53:38.200 --> 0:53:44.800 knew at the time, and we were you know, they 0:53:44.880 --> 0:53:48.000 shot kids at our school and killed them. They shot 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:52.120 like thirty some kids got wounded, but four of them died. 0:53:52.840 --> 0:53:57.040 And I remember after that, and they closed down the school. 0:53:58.200 --> 0:54:03.480 And I remember after that, I was saying, what maybe 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:08.839 maybe when I I I think doesn't matter. Maybe you know, 0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:12.239 when they just get irritated with you enough, they just 0:54:12.360 --> 0:54:16.760 kill you, you know, And that's and protesting is a waste 0:54:16.760 --> 0:54:19.080 of time. And that's so Jerry and I we we 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:22.600 got we had met and I was in that class. 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:24.600 I was telling you about the conceptual art class at 0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:26.880 the time. And it got uh it got stopped in 0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:30.440 the middle of the class, and they closed the school 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:33.399 down for three months during the summer, and Jerry would 0:54:33.440 --> 0:54:36.280 come over to where uh my brother and I lived 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:41.799 and play music with us, and we talked about what 0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:44.960 was going on in the world. And and you know, 0:54:45.960 --> 0:54:49.880 we had some other friends from Kent uh and I 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:52.239 had these people I was working with that were, you know, 0:54:53.080 --> 0:54:57.440 Vietnam vets, and some of them, this one guy, Ed 0:54:57.520 --> 0:55:01.839 Barger Uh was was working on sound with me. He 0:55:01.880 --> 0:55:05.360 was an engineer and and we we were creating sounds 0:55:05.400 --> 0:55:08.480 and looking for sounds and ways to make a synse sound. 0:55:09.080 --> 0:55:13.680 And you know, we're we're we're working on stuff in 0:55:13.719 --> 0:55:16.520 this little room, and we we kind of come to 0:55:16.560 --> 0:55:24.040 the decision that maybe, uh, revolt, you know, maybe you know, 0:55:24.520 --> 0:55:27.640 that's not the way to change things, you know, because 0:55:27.640 --> 0:55:31.040 if because the powers, when they just finally get irritated enough, 0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:37.200 they can just mow you down. And but at the 0:55:37.200 --> 0:55:40.560 same time we were we wanted to talk about what 0:55:40.680 --> 0:55:45.960 was going on, and and we you know, because of 0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:49.440 our interest in graphics and design and things we we 0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:54.000 loved like sixties and seventies stuff. You know, Spencer's catalogs 0:55:54.040 --> 0:55:57.359 cracked me up. I loved the useless things that they 0:55:57.400 --> 0:56:00.440 sold in a Spencer Gift catalog, and but I love 0:56:00.480 --> 0:56:05.040 the artwork also, for the these little postcard shape things. 0:56:05.040 --> 0:56:08.399 And at the time, you know, when I first went 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:10.120 to Kent, when I was back in sixty eight, I 0:56:10.880 --> 0:56:14.040 found out about mail art and I started making art 0:56:14.520 --> 0:56:18.359 on postcard size because of my vision, and I was 0:56:18.440 --> 0:56:21.280 making it then, and so Spencer's Gifts. I would sometimes 0:56:21.320 --> 0:56:24.520 add images out of a Spencer's Gift catalog and then 0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:26.879 correct them, is what I'd call it, you know, when 0:56:26.880 --> 0:56:34.640 I added other artwork to it, and in the process 0:56:34.680 --> 0:56:38.120 we found different things. Jerry found a book with a 0:56:38.160 --> 0:56:40.520 friend of his, Bob Lewis. They found this book at 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:44.640 a at like a witchcraft store or something called The 0:56:44.719 --> 0:56:47.800 Truth about No The beginning was the end how man 0:56:48.480 --> 0:56:53.000 came about through cannibalism. And it was a Yugoslavian anthropologist 0:56:53.640 --> 0:57:01.920 and you know, he was taking things that the maga 0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:04.719 of the the twenties and thirties, I mean of the 0:57:04.760 --> 0:57:11.879 thirties who were who were like, uh, you know, reacting 0:57:12.320 --> 0:57:17.200 to Darwin and they were like the you know, there 0:57:17.280 --> 0:57:19.720 was Christian groups back in the thirties that were like 0:57:19.920 --> 0:57:23.160 making fun of evolution and then they said, well, de 0:57:23.280 --> 0:57:26.760 evolutions more real, that's that's more likely, and it was 0:57:26.800 --> 0:57:32.480 like a joke, but it was like, you know, I 0:57:32.800 --> 0:57:37.240 found a reverend B. F. Shaddock from Rogers, Ohio who 0:57:37.240 --> 0:57:39.000 had done all these pamphlets, and one of them was 0:57:39.040 --> 0:57:43.680 called Jockohomo, and they were basically saying the same. They 0:57:43.720 --> 0:57:48.120 were making fun of of science and making fun of 0:57:48.120 --> 0:57:54.400 of of you know, evolution, and they were like say, well, 0:57:54.520 --> 0:57:57.760 de evolutions really more likely and more possible. And I 0:57:57.760 --> 0:58:02.640 remember we were thinking something about we liked the idea 0:58:02.680 --> 0:58:05.120 of the evolution. To us, it seemed like what if 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:07.320 you took it serious instead of just use it to 0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:09.960 make you know. I mean, it was probably at the 0:58:10.000 --> 0:58:12.600 time it was like the equivalent of their eating the 0:58:12.640 --> 0:58:17.880 dogs and the cats, you know. And so we took 0:58:17.920 --> 0:58:22.360 this this idea and we said, we want to incorporate 0:58:22.400 --> 0:58:25.760 it into our art, whatever that is. And we weren't 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:28.440 sure if it was music or maybe it was going 0:58:28.520 --> 0:58:31.280 to be like a cabaret because we were you know, 0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:33.640 we thought about all the cabarets that were going on 0:58:33.720 --> 0:58:37.160 in Europe at the time. But I mean in the 0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:41.480 twenties and early thirties, we were thinking about that. I thought, wow, 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:43.560 that wouldn't that be great if we did did like 0:58:43.720 --> 0:58:46.200 shows like that? And Jerry and I were both into that, 0:58:46.240 --> 0:58:48.400 and so was into it. He just wanted to play 0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:58.280 guitar mostly. But we uh, we started writing songs and 0:58:59.360 --> 0:59:03.480 my brother was helping me, like look for strange sounds, 0:59:03.520 --> 0:59:06.680 and we found this thing by Electra harmon X. It 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:12.440 was a stomp box that only made ugly sounds. It 0:59:12.520 --> 0:59:16.960 was called a frequency analyzer. It was incredible. The fact 0:59:16.960 --> 0:59:19.360 that they even made it and put it out. I'm 0:59:19.400 --> 0:59:23.720 still I'm still so happy for that because I used 0:59:23.760 --> 0:59:25.920 that to create so many of the DeVos sounds in 0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:29.520 the early days, things like the like the clown horns 0:59:29.560 --> 0:59:34.920 and Jockohan with the oh stuff like that, and I 0:59:34.960 --> 0:59:38.480 played it on. Jerry was writing these songs that were 0:59:38.560 --> 0:59:42.080 kind of like his songs were a little bit like 0:59:42.160 --> 0:59:46.360 the Thugs or something, but and I just put these 0:59:46.720 --> 0:59:50.160 ugly abstract sounds over top of it, and it gave 0:59:50.160 --> 0:59:52.360 it a whole nother feeling. It gave it a whole 0:59:52.400 --> 0:59:57.800 nother impetus. And anyhow, so I was writing stuff like Jockohomo, 0:59:57.960 --> 0:59:59.880 and it was like in a timing where you couldn't 1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:02.440 answer to it. It was like, really, I was thinking 1:00:02.480 --> 1:00:03.960 of it. It was going to go on a stage. 1:00:04.000 --> 1:00:06.720 We'd be performing it in a in a theater somewhere 1:00:06.800 --> 1:00:13.520 and do a show with it. And Jerry was He 1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:16.760 said to Bob, I mean to Chuck Statler. He said 1:00:16.800 --> 1:00:19.280 something like, I don't know about Mark and what he's 1:00:19.280 --> 1:00:22.400 doing with sounds. It's kind of stuff's all kind of weird. 1:00:22.480 --> 1:00:25.280 I don't know, I don't know if this band's gonna 1:00:25.360 --> 1:00:29.440 work or not. And so he he kind of was 1:00:29.680 --> 1:00:32.880 thinking about taking a he was thinking about maybe taking 1:00:32.920 --> 1:00:35.280 another path. I think he was gonna come out and 1:00:35.960 --> 1:00:39.280 work on the prop store with John zon Brookie. He 1:00:39.320 --> 1:00:42.640 was thinking about starting that company with him instead, and 1:00:44.120 --> 1:00:45.600 I said to him, I said, you can do whatever 1:00:45.640 --> 1:00:47.360 you want to do, but I'm doing a band and 1:00:47.400 --> 1:00:49.720 I'm gonna make sure that this happens no matter what. 1:00:50.160 --> 1:00:55.919 And Chuck Statler had left Akron to go to Minneapolis 1:00:55.960 --> 1:01:00.000 and to make commercials and a year or so before 1:01:00.120 --> 1:01:03.120 or that, and he came over right about at that 1:01:03.240 --> 1:01:07.640 time period and he U this, this is like seventy 1:01:07.680 --> 1:01:13.520 four now, and he had a I think it was 1:01:13.560 --> 1:01:19.080 a popular electronics magazine and on the front of it 1:01:19.080 --> 1:01:23.600 it had like a like a young couple, a man 1:01:23.640 --> 1:01:26.400 and a woman, and they're smiling and they're like going 1:01:26.520 --> 1:01:30.400 like this. They're they're like going like that with their hands, 1:01:30.440 --> 1:01:34.120 you know, like uh, like wow. And they had the 1:01:34.280 --> 1:01:36.680 silver disc in their hand that looked like it was 1:01:36.720 --> 1:01:41.600 the size of a of a LP but it but 1:01:42.240 --> 1:01:48.920 it was like a mirrored surface, silver mirrored surface. And 1:01:49.000 --> 1:01:51.400 it turns out they had something called a laser disc. 1:01:51.880 --> 1:01:54.760 And the magazine on the cover it said laser discs. 1:01:54.800 --> 1:01:59.800 Everyone will have him by Christmas. And you know, Chuck 1:02:00.200 --> 1:02:02.360 that to Jerry me and we're like that's what we're 1:02:02.400 --> 1:02:06.959 making music for laser discs. We're making art for laser discs. 1:02:06.960 --> 1:02:08.600 That's what we thought we were gonna We thought that 1:02:09.000 --> 1:02:12.840 laser discs. We in our minds we imagined forty five's 1:02:12.920 --> 1:02:15.680 would now all be silver. They'd be the silver material 1:02:16.160 --> 1:02:18.960 and uh LPs would be the silver material. And not 1:02:19.000 --> 1:02:22.400 only would you get, you know, like forty minutes or 1:02:22.400 --> 1:02:27.400 more of music, you'd get visual image to go along 1:02:27.440 --> 1:02:31.000 with it. And Jerry and I said, that's us rock 1:02:31.040 --> 1:02:33.760 and rolls over. This is something new, this is something 1:02:34.200 --> 1:02:37.280 this is the next thing. This is you know, sound 1:02:37.320 --> 1:02:42.760 and vision. And that's what we became interested in. But Jerry, 1:02:42.560 --> 1:02:48.240 but Chuck, he was worried that that Jerry was gonna 1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:52.440 quit the bat was gonna like gonna like stop working 1:02:52.480 --> 1:02:55.800 with me because of what I was doing with music. 1:02:55.880 --> 1:03:00.800 And and he said, hey, let's make a film. And 1:03:00.880 --> 1:03:05.880 so Chuck made up a move at seven and a 1:03:05.920 --> 1:03:09.800 half minute short film. It had two Devo songs in it, 1:03:10.960 --> 1:03:16.960 Jockohomo and then I wrote this song where I ended 1:03:17.040 --> 1:03:20.600 up taking thirteen words out of a Johnny Rivers song, 1:03:20.720 --> 1:03:24.000 and so I called it Secret Agent Man. But I 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:26.800 wrote all the music, all the lyrics, all the melody, 1:03:26.840 --> 1:03:30.960 everything except for those thirteen secret Agent man they've given you, 1:03:31.120 --> 1:03:37.360 they've given me a number taking away my name. And 1:03:37.440 --> 1:03:40.000 back in those days, that meant that Johnny Rivers owned 1:03:40.040 --> 1:03:42.360 the song. That's how they used to do it in 1:03:42.400 --> 1:03:46.320 the old days, if you had an influence like that. 1:03:46.600 --> 1:03:51.160 But he made this film and it came out really good, 1:03:51.280 --> 1:03:54.240 and we all collaborated on it. Everybody had something to 1:03:54.280 --> 1:04:01.400 do with it. Everybody contributed, and Chuck after he did it, 1:04:01.400 --> 1:04:02.760 it's like, what do you do with that? You know, 1:04:02.840 --> 1:04:05.240 there was nothing to do with it. It's years before 1:04:05.560 --> 1:04:08.200 MTV was going to come out. So he just put 1:04:08.240 --> 1:04:11.040 it in the ann Arbor Film Festival and it won 1:04:11.200 --> 1:04:15.560 first prize for Film Short and we were like, what 1:04:17.520 --> 1:04:20.120 that's a movie called The Beginning? 1:04:20.200 --> 1:04:20.600 Was the End? 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:24.080 The Truth about the Evolution? That won first prize in 1:04:24.160 --> 1:04:29.160 the film festival. We were like so blown away by it. 1:04:29.240 --> 1:04:30.920 We love that and it just kind of made us 1:04:30.960 --> 1:04:33.560 double down. Everybody really doubled down at that point and 1:04:33.600 --> 1:04:39.280 we really knew what we wanted to do and that 1:04:39.440 --> 1:04:42.760 was that was how it began. Pretty much. 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:59.960 Okay, Jerry connected with you over the potato Jerry brought 1:05:00.240 --> 1:05:05.440 the book about the evolution all this from that starting 1:05:05.520 --> 1:05:09.560 point he found the book. Yeah, from that starting point. 1:05:10.680 --> 1:05:14.720 Is he the king of philosophy in the band or 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:16.920 he just brought it? And now the two of you 1:05:17.000 --> 1:05:19.480 are more coming with philosophy. 1:05:21.760 --> 1:05:25.000 Well, you know, I think we both came up with it, 1:05:25.120 --> 1:05:27.840 I think, and there were other people that added things too. 1:05:28.920 --> 1:05:32.560 You know. It's like when I found the Jockohomo pamphlets. 1:05:32.600 --> 1:05:35.520 I found out that this reverend had done a whole 1:05:35.600 --> 1:05:41.320 series of anti evolution pamphlets with artwork and them and 1:05:41.520 --> 1:05:46.560 the word de evolution was printed on the chest of 1:05:46.600 --> 1:05:51.720 a devil in Jockohomo on the second page, and he's pointing. 1:05:52.000 --> 1:05:54.960 The devil is smiling, and he's pointing to a staircase 1:05:55.480 --> 1:05:58.640 that is the staircase to heaven. And each step is 1:05:59.240 --> 1:06:06.840 some human uh, some human wrongdoing like like uh like slavery, 1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:14.080 World War one, World War two, uh, murder. Each of 1:06:14.120 --> 1:06:16.520 the steps had a different night name all the way 1:06:16.560 --> 1:06:23.080 up to the top. And we all, you know, I 1:06:23.080 --> 1:06:25.600 think we all kind of contributed to it, you know, 1:06:26.720 --> 1:06:37.040 and everybody everybody had some piece of it. Uh. I. 1:06:37.040 --> 1:06:40.080 I got inspired in that time period in like in 1:06:40.200 --> 1:06:46.000 seventy five, I wrote a book by Boogie Boy and 1:06:46.080 --> 1:06:50.680 it was Dream of Consciousness and it was crazy. It 1:06:50.720 --> 1:06:53.360 was kind of like he took this guy that had 1:06:53.400 --> 1:06:57.040 that had been tortured in high school and and grade 1:06:57.080 --> 1:07:03.880 school his whole life and uh disrespected and he just 1:07:04.000 --> 1:07:06.320 like it was like it was like that that kid 1:07:06.440 --> 1:07:10.120 just took a stick and hit a pinata. It was 1:07:10.120 --> 1:07:13.440 his brain and all this stuff came flowing out. Lyrics 1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:20.800 for songs, the titles for our first three albums, imagery 1:07:20.960 --> 1:07:27.680 for our first three albums. Everybody, everybody had something to do. 1:07:27.920 --> 1:07:30.400 Jerry was a couple of years older than the rest 1:07:30.440 --> 1:07:32.600 of us, a couple of years than me, and then 1:07:32.640 --> 1:07:35.160 I was a couple of years older than Bob and 1:07:35.400 --> 1:07:42.400 Jim and Alan and Bob Sally and he was our spokesperson. 1:07:43.120 --> 1:07:45.960 He was definitely our spokesperson, and he was always right 1:07:46.000 --> 1:07:48.920 on the mark. He was really good at that, and 1:07:50.920 --> 1:07:53.440 we liked that as a band. We liked having a 1:07:53.520 --> 1:07:58.840 spokesperson because you know, you'd see the sex pistols on 1:07:58.960 --> 1:08:02.280 TV or or even the Who, and they'd be like 1:08:03.080 --> 1:08:07.040 acting like school children, you know, misbehaving while they're sitting 1:08:07.080 --> 1:08:09.960 there doing an interview and like like you know, like 1:08:11.480 --> 1:08:16.160 Keith Moon would be like like you know, like trying 1:08:16.200 --> 1:08:20.600 to distract you know, uh you know, uh you know 1:08:20.640 --> 1:08:24.559 the singer or something from talking and uh where else, 1:08:24.680 --> 1:08:28.160 you know, Sid Vicious and Johnny Rotten would be like 1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:31.880 throwing things at each other on on uh you know, 1:08:31.960 --> 1:08:35.120 English TV and stuff like that. We wanted to we 1:08:35.160 --> 1:08:39.880 wanted to be totally different. We wanted to really we 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:46.799 we considered ourselves uh an art project from the very beginning, 1:08:47.520 --> 1:08:52.639 and so we wore matching outfits. But it wasn't like 1:08:53.360 --> 1:08:57.240 tailored suits like uh all the British bands. It was 1:08:57.280 --> 1:09:04.320 like we were wearing matching jen natorial outfits and we 1:09:04.439 --> 1:09:08.040 look very you know, we look very blue collar, working class. 1:09:08.040 --> 1:09:10.280 And we had one person talking and it would be Jerry, 1:09:10.720 --> 1:09:17.120 and rather than nonsensical, he would be talking about the 1:09:17.240 --> 1:09:18.719 evolution almost every time. 1:09:20.240 --> 1:09:25.920 Okay, the late sixties, especially bleeding into the seventies, we're 1:09:25.920 --> 1:09:30.519 a time of irreverence. You'd reference the Thugs earlier, but 1:09:30.640 --> 1:09:33.639 they're almost lowbrow compared to all this irreverence, and all 1:09:33.720 --> 1:09:38.320 the art was based in alienation. Now, granted, we live 1:09:38.320 --> 1:09:43.599 in a multifurious world today, but we don't have that 1:09:44.439 --> 1:09:48.360 today everything is serious and money oriented. How come we 1:09:48.439 --> 1:09:50.240 don't have that irreverence today. 1:09:52.360 --> 1:09:55.000 I think you're just looking in the wrong places for it, Bob, 1:09:56.680 --> 1:09:59.920 I think, And it seems like every fifty years late. 1:10:00.479 --> 1:10:05.160 It's like fifty years before before this was was you know, 1:10:06.880 --> 1:10:10.439 the unrest and you know, in the Vietnam thing, and 1:10:10.479 --> 1:10:13.280 then fifty years before that was what was going was 1:10:13.360 --> 1:10:15.639 right between World War One and World War two in Europe. 1:10:15.680 --> 1:10:18.600 And I think what's happening now is there is a 1:10:18.640 --> 1:10:22.600 lot of exactly what you're talking about, but it's you 1:10:22.680 --> 1:10:26.559 have to look different places for it. Uh. I don't 1:10:26.920 --> 1:10:32.320 I think, you know, like you know, I'm you know, 1:10:32.360 --> 1:10:37.240 I'm not casting any aspersions. But I don't think Taylor 1:10:37.240 --> 1:10:39.680 Swift it is relevant to any of that. She's like, 1:10:40.640 --> 1:10:44.960 that's like a whole different kind of what what you know, 1:10:45.080 --> 1:10:48.040 music that makes money is is something totally different than 1:10:48.080 --> 1:10:50.720 what it was fifty years ago. But I think the 1:10:50.760 --> 1:10:54.080 irreverence is there. I think it's on the Internet. I 1:10:54.080 --> 1:10:58.559 think the hard part about it is you've got a 1:10:58.600 --> 1:11:03.680 lot of just plain old stupidity and you've got you know, 1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:05.160 if you go on the Internet and you look at 1:11:05.200 --> 1:11:09.719 responses to like anything that happened in the news today, 1:11:10.120 --> 1:11:14.959 you'll see an extreme left and an extreme right speaker 1:11:15.280 --> 1:11:17.960 that are saying things to try to get people upset 1:11:18.040 --> 1:11:20.400 or to get them worked up. And they don't really 1:11:20.439 --> 1:11:23.759 represent the left or the right. They're like just they're 1:11:23.800 --> 1:11:27.160 just you know, people that are trying to get attention, 1:11:27.280 --> 1:11:30.120 and they're trying to get people to like log onto 1:11:30.160 --> 1:11:35.080 their site with outrageous statements. I think kids are maybe 1:11:35.160 --> 1:11:39.080 a little wise to that, and wiser than we're giving 1:11:39.120 --> 1:11:42.719 them credit for, because I think I think they see 1:11:42.720 --> 1:11:48.519 a lot of that is nonsensical and it's not really 1:11:48.560 --> 1:11:53.120 where people are. I think most of the humans in 1:11:53.160 --> 1:11:57.280 the world are somewhere in between those two extremes that 1:11:57.439 --> 1:12:03.000 you hear arguing about, you know, you know, accusing immigrants 1:12:03.040 --> 1:12:07.880 eating dogs and cats and accusing uh uh, you know, 1:12:08.680 --> 1:12:11.439 the right of like being out to shoot everybody they 1:12:11.439 --> 1:12:16.479 can shoot. You know, there's there's like I think there's 1:12:17.320 --> 1:12:20.519 most of us, I think are more about common sense 1:12:20.680 --> 1:12:25.400 and about you know, survival. We want to live, you know, 1:12:25.600 --> 1:12:31.760 we're not trying to to destroy the planet. And but 1:12:31.760 --> 1:12:35.439 but I think from an art standpoint, I think there's 1:12:35.479 --> 1:12:37.960 even more outlets now than there were before, and that 1:12:38.160 --> 1:12:42.920 that's kind of great. I mean, and right at this 1:12:42.920 --> 1:12:46.240 this moment, this exact moment we're talking whenever it is 1:12:46.760 --> 1:12:49.800 when this, when this comes over the air, this thing 1:12:49.880 --> 1:12:55.280 with AI has totally raised all the ante and and 1:12:55.320 --> 1:13:00.800 the possibilities for what could be considered art and sentient thought. 1:13:01.200 --> 1:13:06.759 I'm I'm kind of I wish I was like fifteen 1:13:06.880 --> 1:13:08.720 right now. I wish I was young enough that this 1:13:08.840 --> 1:13:11.240 was I was just starting. I think this is an 1:13:11.280 --> 1:13:13.759 amazing time to be alive on this planet. 1:13:14.720 --> 1:13:18.280 Tell me more about the AI and your feelings about 1:13:18.280 --> 1:13:21.240 wanting to be young, etc. Go deeper. 1:13:22.880 --> 1:13:27.840 I see AI as being a way to I mean, 1:13:27.880 --> 1:13:30.200 think about how people felt when cars came out and 1:13:30.200 --> 1:13:33.000 they were like freaked out and they but my horse 1:13:33.080 --> 1:13:36.280 and buggy. I'll never leave my horse behind. I always 1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:38.200 have to ride my horse. I'll never ride one of 1:13:38.200 --> 1:13:42.720 those stupid loud machines, you know, and people freak out 1:13:42.840 --> 1:13:45.800 when stuff happens, but you know, cars are actually a 1:13:45.800 --> 1:13:50.719 lot more sensible in certain ways than horses and buggies 1:13:51.560 --> 1:13:54.120 sort of. I mean, now we've taken it too far. Now, 1:13:54.160 --> 1:13:58.000 maybe there's too many humans, but that's another story to 1:13:58.080 --> 1:14:03.439 talk about. But as far as ai, I think, I 1:14:03.520 --> 1:14:06.479 love the idea. When I was a kid and I 1:14:06.520 --> 1:14:08.360 wanted to be in a band, and like I told you, 1:14:08.400 --> 1:14:11.080 I'd read the newspaper to find out bands I could 1:14:11.120 --> 1:14:16.559 play it. I I remember thinking, well, it's cost too 1:14:16.640 --> 1:14:19.719 much to buy a keyboard. I can't own a Wurlitzer 1:14:19.800 --> 1:14:23.439 electric piano, so I can't be in a band. But 1:14:23.439 --> 1:14:28.040 but nowadays a kid can be walking home from school 1:14:28.040 --> 1:14:30.720 and they could they could have an idea for a bassline, 1:14:30.760 --> 1:14:32.760 and they could be going into their phone. They could 1:14:32.760 --> 1:14:35.160 go boom boom doom doo doo. Boom boom boom bo 1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:37.800 doo doo, and then they could go online and they 1:14:37.800 --> 1:14:40.600 could sign it to like you could say, oh, I 1:14:40.640 --> 1:14:43.479 want it to sound like the Foo Fighters, and so 1:14:43.560 --> 1:14:46.479 then they play that. They'd use an electric bassis sound 1:14:46.520 --> 1:14:48.160 like Foo Fighters. They say, oh no, I wanted to 1:14:48.160 --> 1:14:49.720 sound like John Coltrane, and then there would be an 1:14:49.760 --> 1:14:52.200 upright bass playing the part where they say, oh, I 1:14:52.200 --> 1:14:54.040 want it to sound like Windy Carlos, And then it 1:14:54.080 --> 1:14:56.519 would be a mini mog Since or a moge Since 1:14:56.920 --> 1:14:58.680 or something. You can you can do all that and 1:14:58.720 --> 1:15:01.519 then if you like that, then you could say, they 1:15:01.560 --> 1:15:03.200 can go into the same phone and they can go 1:15:03.280 --> 1:15:05.960 boom ba boom boom bah. They can do a drum 1:15:06.000 --> 1:15:10.720 beat in the phone and they can pick what kind 1:15:10.760 --> 1:15:12.680 of drums they want it to sound like what they 1:15:12.680 --> 1:15:15.040 are trying to do, change the tempo, the speed. They 1:15:15.040 --> 1:15:18.160 can put those two together. They can keep adding instruments 1:15:18.160 --> 1:15:21.040 on of whatever kind of instruments you want. I just 1:15:21.080 --> 1:15:24.760 picked really basic common instruments that you know, having a 1:15:24.760 --> 1:15:29.280 set of drums in my day meant that you had 1:15:29.320 --> 1:15:32.200 them down on the basement and after about an hour 1:15:32.320 --> 1:15:35.719 your parents would be opening the door going stop playing 1:15:35.800 --> 1:15:39.280 those things, you know, get off of that, you know. 1:15:39.479 --> 1:15:43.840 And now it's like totally different. And if a kid 1:15:43.920 --> 1:15:46.000 has an idea for a song, he can put it 1:15:46.040 --> 1:15:47.960 all together on his phone. You know. It's like your 1:15:48.000 --> 1:15:52.439 phone has more power than the Beatles had when they 1:15:52.439 --> 1:15:56.920 were recording in London and doing their albums, they had 1:15:56.960 --> 1:15:59.080 like these four track tape recorders and then it went 1:15:59.160 --> 1:16:03.120 up to eight, sixteen and twenty four. But kids now 1:16:03.160 --> 1:16:05.040 they have more power than that in their phone and 1:16:05.080 --> 1:16:08.920 they can do it so fast and if they get 1:16:08.960 --> 1:16:12.639 something that they like, they don't have to go out 1:16:12.680 --> 1:16:15.400 and find a record company. I mean, I remember when 1:16:15.400 --> 1:16:18.160 I was in out of high school. I remember thinking, 1:16:18.320 --> 1:16:21.840 I don't think there's any record companies in Ohio, and 1:16:24.320 --> 1:16:26.000 if you did, how would you get them to put 1:16:26.000 --> 1:16:29.800 out your record anyhow? And you know, now kids they 1:16:29.800 --> 1:16:32.479 can just go right directly to the Internet. They can 1:16:32.520 --> 1:16:34.320 put their song up on it, they can make a 1:16:34.400 --> 1:16:38.360 video to go with it, and they don't have to 1:16:38.439 --> 1:16:41.800 ask anybody. And it's like there's more artistic freedom than that, 1:16:42.200 --> 1:16:44.640 you know. That's that's how I feel. I feel. It's like, 1:16:45.800 --> 1:16:47.759 you know, it's a pretty great time. 1:16:48.680 --> 1:16:53.320 Okay, you were speaking of music. You talked about the 1:16:53.400 --> 1:16:57.960 two pole or opposites, the left and the right, expanding it. 1:16:58.000 --> 1:16:59.880 Since you have a band that was based on DV 1:17:01.720 --> 1:17:04.280 so we live in this era, how are things going 1:17:04.360 --> 1:17:08.200 to play out on a macro level, not just people 1:17:08.240 --> 1:17:08.960 making music? 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:17.400 Okay, all right? I have to admit I've been the 1:17:17.479 --> 1:17:21.600 optimist in Devo since the beginning, and that's why I 1:17:21.680 --> 1:17:24.200 became the character Boogie Boy. I think I think Boogie 1:17:24.200 --> 1:17:28.080 Boy was always the optimist and looked at the bright side. 1:17:28.520 --> 1:17:33.000 Jerry is definitely the pessimist and thinks it's all going down. 1:17:33.240 --> 1:17:37.080 He thinks for this is the Titanic and it's all 1:17:37.120 --> 1:17:47.839 going under. I think I think people. I think people 1:17:48.080 --> 1:17:52.760 are just learning what their capabilities are and what their 1:17:52.800 --> 1:17:58.960 possibilities are, and I think they need to be aware 1:17:59.240 --> 1:18:04.040 of the fact that humans are the unnatural species, for 1:18:04.120 --> 1:18:07.799 better and for worse, mostly in a lot of ways 1:18:07.800 --> 1:18:12.320 for worse. I just finished a film with a Pixar 1:18:12.400 --> 1:18:14.280 and I can't talk about it too much, but it's 1:18:14.360 --> 1:18:18.040 kids film, but it's but it basically that's what the 1:18:18.080 --> 1:18:22.040 messages for kids are, like the animals save the humans 1:18:22.080 --> 1:18:26.679 in the end, and you're like, like, oh, maybe humans 1:18:26.680 --> 1:18:30.120 are the one species that are out of touch with nature. 1:18:30.479 --> 1:18:33.360 And I think I think some of that's going to 1:18:33.400 --> 1:18:35.920 come back. I don't I don't want to move to Mars. 1:18:36.000 --> 1:18:37.960 I think anybody that wants to go to Mars, oh 1:18:38.000 --> 1:18:42.200 my gosh, go go man. It looks beautiful up there. 1:18:42.520 --> 1:18:47.000 Have fun, you know. I want to see planet Earth 1:18:47.600 --> 1:18:55.519 get restored. And personally, I think maybe it means less 1:18:55.560 --> 1:19:03.000 humans or being more careful than just like randomly everybody 1:19:03.080 --> 1:19:07.240 just making kids. We've been too successful at that. I 1:19:07.280 --> 1:19:15.360 think it. I think it's kind of there's a lot 1:19:15.360 --> 1:19:24.360 of things to think about and I'm hoping, I'm hoping 1:19:24.400 --> 1:19:26.439 that we don't blow ourselves up. I mean, it could happen. 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:29.519 I mean, if you put one crazy person in charge 1:19:29.960 --> 1:19:34.360 of a nuclear weapon, they could actually they could end everything, 1:19:34.680 --> 1:19:39.479 you know, And so that kind of stuff really worries me. 1:19:40.720 --> 1:19:45.000 Okay, let's go from thirty thousand feet down to the planet. 1:19:45.200 --> 1:19:48.040 We live in an era now that is completely different 1:19:48.640 --> 1:19:53.960 from when we grew up. I'm your contemporary, and what 1:19:54.000 --> 1:19:58.719 do we know. You have all these tools, generally speaking, 1:19:58.880 --> 1:20:01.760 baby boomers, A lot of Gen xers hate them. They 1:20:01.760 --> 1:20:04.559 think the smartphone is the devil, they think AI is 1:20:04.600 --> 1:20:08.479 the devil, etc. So you have all these kids who 1:20:08.560 --> 1:20:15.639 live in that world. We have a president who, let's 1:20:15.640 --> 1:20:20.439 just say he has authoritarian elements. Okay, we have the 1:20:20.520 --> 1:20:25.200 same people who are on smartphones, experiencing AI, living on 1:20:25.240 --> 1:20:30.400 the internet. Their future economically is not what it was 1:20:30.479 --> 1:20:35.160 for previous generations. So do we just stumble along or 1:20:35.320 --> 1:20:40.639 is our big bang event? How does this work out? Well? 1:20:40.680 --> 1:20:45.000 I think what's happening right now in politics all over 1:20:45.000 --> 1:20:49.840 the world is really educating everyone. And I think they're 1:20:49.920 --> 1:20:57.479 seeing that there are dangers to stupidity and greed, and 1:21:01.880 --> 1:21:05.920 you know, it's like I only know a few kids. 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:08.120 I don't know how many are in your life. There's 1:21:08.760 --> 1:21:10.519 much less than used to be in my life. I 1:21:10.800 --> 1:21:13.360 have a couple of girls in the early twenties, and 1:21:14.439 --> 1:21:17.600 I talk to them and talk to their friends that 1:21:17.640 --> 1:21:19.400 come over, and it's that's about it. 1:21:19.520 --> 1:21:19.760 Really. 1:21:19.800 --> 1:21:23.160 I don't get to hang out with a teenager or ever. 1:21:24.240 --> 1:21:29.599 So I'm I listen to what they say and how 1:21:29.640 --> 1:21:31.800 they're reacting to things, and I think they have a 1:21:31.840 --> 1:21:36.280 much healthier attitude than than people that are like panicked 1:21:36.680 --> 1:21:42.360 and that are you know, that are to think there's 1:21:42.400 --> 1:21:44.640 only gonna there can only be a bad outcome to this. 1:21:45.000 --> 1:21:48.680 I think I think we're I think we're in a 1:21:48.760 --> 1:21:52.400 learning curve right now, learning process. 1:21:54.720 --> 1:21:57.800 Think you have these twenty year old girls, where are 1:21:57.840 --> 1:22:00.000 they at? More specifically, because you talk to. 1:22:00.080 --> 1:22:08.080 Them, they uh, they kind of they kind of they 1:22:08.080 --> 1:22:13.559 see technology in a much more realistic way than their 1:22:13.560 --> 1:22:17.320 mom and dads do. It's like it's like, you know, 1:22:19.760 --> 1:22:22.519 they look at us and and uh, my wife's saying, okay, 1:22:23.240 --> 1:22:26.839 film h Eddie's film No our show is on tonight 1:22:26.920 --> 1:22:29.960 on uh TCM. So we got to like be we 1:22:30.040 --> 1:22:32.559 got to be finished whatever we're doing so at eight 1:22:32.560 --> 1:22:34.880 o'clock we can see the show and my kids just 1:22:34.960 --> 1:22:39.040 roll their eyes, like, why you're you're you like you're 1:22:39.120 --> 1:22:41.800 like a slave to the time schedule of the of 1:22:41.920 --> 1:22:44.360 the TV set. You know, they don't they think that's 1:22:44.600 --> 1:22:47.640 that's humorous things like that. You know that they they 1:22:47.680 --> 1:22:53.280 do have more sophisticated, uh take on technology than us, 1:22:53.320 --> 1:22:56.360 and we're we're always are asking them how to how 1:22:56.360 --> 1:22:59.759 to make things work. It's never the other way around. 1:23:07.880 --> 1:23:09.559 Well, how about yourself, I mean, you were at the 1:23:09.600 --> 1:23:14.080 cutting edge with the mode you're talking about the future. 1:23:14.880 --> 1:23:17.080 Are you seeing that when it comes to tech you're 1:23:17.120 --> 1:23:19.600 somewhat of alvenite. 1:23:19.840 --> 1:23:24.519 I'm saying that there's so much information and there's so 1:23:24.600 --> 1:23:26.680 many things that you can be involved, and you can 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:32.360 choose what you want to be involved in. And for me, 1:23:33.439 --> 1:23:37.719 I still have I still have a couple of things 1:23:37.760 --> 1:23:39.960 I love and one of them is writing music. 1:23:41.280 --> 1:23:41.920 That to me. 1:23:44.120 --> 1:23:48.360 Is a revelation that that, even more so than with DEVO, 1:23:48.520 --> 1:23:51.479 it came. I became aware of it when I started 1:23:51.520 --> 1:23:58.679 scoring films and games and TV shows. And I love 1:23:59.400 --> 1:24:01.800 doing visual art and I still do it in a 1:24:01.880 --> 1:24:05.400 small size, I still do it on postcard size because 1:24:05.920 --> 1:24:09.200 I was into mail art back in my teenage years 1:24:09.240 --> 1:24:11.320 and it meant a lot to me. And then I 1:24:11.760 --> 1:24:15.400 started keeping the art because it would have you know, 1:24:15.479 --> 1:24:22.960 like lyrics or ideas for album art or costumes, and 1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:28.720 so those are still really important to me. And I 1:24:29.560 --> 1:24:34.320 do incorporate technology, but I can't do everything. It's like 1:24:34.479 --> 1:24:39.599 I use my phone and I do work on AI. 1:24:39.760 --> 1:24:45.160 I do things like I do. I'm experimenting with like 1:24:45.720 --> 1:24:50.720 art for for Devo, and it's i mean even just 1:24:50.800 --> 1:24:53.760 plain old chat GPT, which is like about as run 1:24:53.760 --> 1:24:57.840 of the mill age you can get. When we were 1:24:57.880 --> 1:25:02.080 playing at the Hollywood Bowl a couple weeks ago, I 1:25:02.120 --> 1:25:03.920 took a couple of pictures that I had made on 1:25:03.960 --> 1:25:06.439 my phone while I was sitting on an airplane and 1:25:06.479 --> 1:25:08.639 gave them to our lighting director and he put them 1:25:08.640 --> 1:25:11.760 on the screen and oh my god, they came out 1:25:11.760 --> 1:25:15.559 full resolution, fifty feet across, thirty feet high. I couldn't 1:25:15.560 --> 1:25:17.280 believe it, and I made it on my phone. I 1:25:17.320 --> 1:25:20.120 was like, that's unbelievable. And I just found that out 1:25:20.160 --> 1:25:23.200 a couple of weeks ago. So now I'm really investigating 1:25:24.360 --> 1:25:29.880 that element because like I do stuff on cards, like 1:25:29.920 --> 1:25:31.120 I'll show you something here. 1:25:31.400 --> 1:25:33.439 Well, this is audio only, so you're gonna have to 1:25:33.479 --> 1:25:35.200 describe it for by audience. 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:40.960 Okay, So this here, that's a picture that I found 1:25:41.200 --> 1:25:46.040 online of a potato. And instead of just starting out 1:25:46.040 --> 1:25:49.720 with a blank card, which I've done for decades, now 1:25:49.760 --> 1:25:52.719 I can put a potato on a card really easy 1:25:53.439 --> 1:25:56.760 that I find online. And then I'm using, like, you 1:25:56.800 --> 1:26:00.800 know that really irritating those ad camp means that like 1:26:00.960 --> 1:26:03.840 just to just like get in your way when you're 1:26:03.840 --> 1:26:07.320 trying to like read the news or or do something 1:26:07.840 --> 1:26:10.960 on the internet, even just use texting or use any 1:26:11.080 --> 1:26:15.240 or use your Google or something. There's all these horrible ads. 1:26:15.240 --> 1:26:18.280 But then I've started finding the artwork on them. I 1:26:18.280 --> 1:26:24.479 started finding it entertaining and and so I take some 1:26:24.560 --> 1:26:26.080 of the other artwork and I do the same thing 1:26:26.080 --> 1:26:30.320 I did with the Spencer Gifts art and I, you know, 1:26:30.360 --> 1:26:32.639 I just take these things off on my phone and 1:26:32.680 --> 1:26:34.600 I can just put them in a printer when I 1:26:34.640 --> 1:26:38.360 come to work here. I'm I've been writing music in 1:26:38.400 --> 1:26:42.640 this same building on Sunset Strip for thirty five years, 1:26:42.680 --> 1:26:45.519 and I have a printer here, so I could just 1:26:45.600 --> 1:26:48.280 throw these in the printer and print them up. And 1:26:49.280 --> 1:26:52.400 I'm not doing the most sophisticated AI work out there 1:26:52.400 --> 1:26:55.000 by any means. I'm doing this the most run of 1:26:55.040 --> 1:26:58.040 the mill, easy to do stuff. But what's exciting to 1:26:58.080 --> 1:27:02.760 me about it is if you're a conceptual artist. And 1:27:02.800 --> 1:27:04.840 this is what I've been talking to Jerry about this, 1:27:04.920 --> 1:27:07.800 because I do art all the time, I do physical 1:27:08.000 --> 1:27:10.760 art all the time, but he doesn't. And I said, 1:27:11.479 --> 1:27:14.160 you really got to investigate AI. I said, you really 1:27:14.200 --> 1:27:16.519 just got to try it out, because he's really good 1:27:16.560 --> 1:27:20.080 with ideas. He loves to, you know, come up with 1:27:20.120 --> 1:27:23.599 an idea for something, but he doesn't like to go 1:27:23.680 --> 1:27:31.840 through the you know, the the all the toil that's involved. 1:27:33.160 --> 1:27:36.280 So so I just I just think I'm going to 1:27:36.360 --> 1:27:38.559 start We're going to start seeing things from people. And 1:27:38.600 --> 1:27:41.200 it's just so early on. You know, AI hasn't been 1:27:41.200 --> 1:27:44.640 around that long and it and it's getting bigger and 1:27:44.680 --> 1:27:48.760 bigger all the time. I just love the idea that 1:27:48.760 --> 1:27:52.160 that kids could make films, that we all could make films, 1:27:52.360 --> 1:27:55.960 and you know, why not. Why shouldn't everybody be allowed 1:27:55.960 --> 1:27:57.960 to make films? Why should it only be like those 1:27:58.080 --> 1:28:02.040 that that a film company is willing to invest in. 1:28:03.160 --> 1:28:05.960 I love the idea of letting everybody make something, and 1:28:06.000 --> 1:28:08.640 then I think that's going to raise the level of 1:28:09.720 --> 1:28:12.720 quality and that you'll find things that then there'll be 1:28:12.760 --> 1:28:16.840 even more. I think they'll be more great art. That's 1:28:16.880 --> 1:28:17.439 what I think. 1:28:18.840 --> 1:28:24.800 Okay, in the seventies, Divo is toiling in obscurity. Then 1:28:24.880 --> 1:28:27.360 you get even before the Warner Brothers deals, you were 1:28:27.360 --> 1:28:30.360 in the Metropolis, they would play at Los Angeles on KOQ. 1:28:30.640 --> 1:28:34.040 This is the old free format chocube for the Rocket 1:28:34.040 --> 1:28:36.280 of the nineties, so you were aware. Then you have 1:28:36.320 --> 1:28:39.519 an album on Warner Brothers, so that people kind of 1:28:39.560 --> 1:28:44.080 paying attention know what's going on. Then you're on TV. 1:28:44.880 --> 1:28:49.080 Anybody with a modicum of hypnis knows who Divo is 1:28:49.600 --> 1:28:52.720 and know if nothing else that we make of satisfaction, 1:28:53.479 --> 1:28:57.600 then you're on ASSNL, and then you're on MTV. So 1:28:57.720 --> 1:29:01.400 the people who are completely not paying attention or aware 1:29:01.439 --> 1:29:08.000 of you today, that's an impossibility. The initial hurdle that 1:29:08.120 --> 1:29:12.679 Divo had, which was recording a national distribution, that's easy. 1:29:13.600 --> 1:29:17.840 Gaining the attention is difficult even at this laid date. 1:29:18.160 --> 1:29:22.559 For yourself. You create something, the ripples are not going 1:29:22.640 --> 1:29:24.840 to go as far. Is that frustrating? 1:29:24.920 --> 1:29:33.760 For you. I think it's a trade off because you know, 1:29:34.920 --> 1:29:39.680 back when I was doing it, or before I was 1:29:39.720 --> 1:29:42.439 doing it, and I was just a fan, Like I said, 1:29:42.479 --> 1:29:44.439 I would go to the record store and there would 1:29:44.439 --> 1:29:47.880 be a dozen or less albums in that box. There'd 1:29:47.960 --> 1:29:51.400 be one sun Raw album, there'd be one Zappa album. 1:29:51.840 --> 1:29:55.880 And now, if you go on the Internet and there's 1:29:55.920 --> 1:29:58.840 something you want to hear, you just throw a few 1:29:58.880 --> 1:30:08.400 words into you know, into Google or Amazon, and and whila, 1:30:08.560 --> 1:30:10.640 there's something anything you say you want to hear. If 1:30:10.680 --> 1:30:19.160 you want to hear a space age, hillbilly croquet music, 1:30:19.439 --> 1:30:21.240 if you put those three words in there, there's some 1:30:21.400 --> 1:30:25.400 band that does that. And I kind of love that. 1:30:25.600 --> 1:30:28.920 I think it's a trade off. And you're right if 1:30:28.960 --> 1:30:30.960 you want to be like, if you want to be 1:30:31.000 --> 1:30:36.360 a rock star, you know, maybe you missed your opportunity 1:30:36.520 --> 1:30:39.120 to be a rock star. I mean you can there 1:30:39.160 --> 1:30:41.840 are some. I mean there's Taylor Swift. You know, she's 1:30:41.840 --> 1:30:44.720 still out there and she's she's bigger than ever. She's 1:30:44.760 --> 1:30:47.639 bigger than anybody ever was, you know, the Beatles. She's 1:30:47.880 --> 1:30:50.320 probably sells more records in one year than the Beatles 1:30:50.360 --> 1:30:54.519 sold in their whole lifetime. But I don't know that number. 1:30:54.560 --> 1:30:57.360 I just made that up. But you know what I'm saying, 1:30:57.400 --> 1:31:00.360 it's like you're training for something that might be better, 1:31:00.680 --> 1:31:04.360 and that is that more people have access to the 1:31:04.400 --> 1:31:07.639 ability to be artists and the ability to make a statement. 1:31:08.200 --> 1:31:13.320 And because of that, the best stuff you can find. 1:31:13.400 --> 1:31:16.320 You're you're thinking that the best stuff gets lost, But 1:31:16.600 --> 1:31:19.439 I don't think that totally is the case. I think 1:31:19.479 --> 1:31:23.920 there's a lot of great music that there's people that 1:31:23.920 --> 1:31:26.719 that's what they're searching for, and so they put together 1:31:27.000 --> 1:31:31.479 a collection of White Mice or whoever the bands are 1:31:31.560 --> 1:31:34.760 that they like that are doing some certain kind of 1:31:34.760 --> 1:31:38.519 electronic music. And if you find one of those, if 1:31:38.560 --> 1:31:40.360 you if you even just say what it is you're 1:31:40.400 --> 1:31:43.679 looking for, there's these people will show you know, these 1:31:43.960 --> 1:31:46.720 sites will show up that will have that music and 1:31:46.760 --> 1:31:49.400 help you find it. And I think we're in a 1:31:49.439 --> 1:31:52.280 really nice time because of that. You know, if you 1:31:52.360 --> 1:31:54.040 got if you want to get into rock and roll 1:31:54.240 --> 1:31:56.960 because you want to get rich, well good luck. You know, 1:31:57.080 --> 1:32:01.599 that's another story. It's hard to be Taylor's whoever. Those 1:32:01.640 --> 1:32:03.800 people are, all those people that are getting to make 1:32:03.800 --> 1:32:07.360 all that money. But if you're doing it because you're 1:32:07.400 --> 1:32:09.760 an artist, or because you have something to say, or 1:32:09.760 --> 1:32:13.880 because you just love making music. Now's the best time ever. 1:32:15.080 --> 1:32:18.439 I just want to make a comment on Taylor Swift. 1:32:18.880 --> 1:32:20.679 I know I said her name a few too many times. 1:32:20.760 --> 1:32:25.960 No, since you mentioned it. The example I always uses, 1:32:26.080 --> 1:32:29.240 I can sing every lick of Louis Armstrong Slo Dolly, 1:32:29.800 --> 1:32:32.360 not because I liked it, but because I was waiting 1:32:32.400 --> 1:32:37.280 for the Beatles or British invasion. Whereas today, without making 1:32:37.560 --> 1:32:42.320 a judgment whatever, the average person can't mean to Taylor 1:32:42.360 --> 1:32:45.439 swift songs, never mind seeing them. She's making a lot 1:32:45.479 --> 1:32:49.360 of money, but even Taylor Swift doesn't have the ubiquity 1:32:49.760 --> 1:32:51.080 of acts Billy J. 1:32:51.240 --> 1:32:57.960 Kramer, Okay, maybe yes, maybe no. I think if you 1:32:58.040 --> 1:33:01.800 were the same age that you were when you were 1:33:01.840 --> 1:33:07.519 singing Hello Dolly or or Beatles songs for the first time, 1:33:08.760 --> 1:33:11.559 I think those people might know more about Taylor Swift 1:33:11.600 --> 1:33:14.360 than you think. And it doesn't matter if they do 1:33:14.479 --> 1:33:17.439 or don't. But I'm just saying you're in an age 1:33:17.520 --> 1:33:20.120 that doesn't need Taylor Swift. 1:33:20.960 --> 1:33:27.120 Okay, let's leave that aside for now. You and Jerry. 1:33:27.320 --> 1:33:31.400 He comes from the conceptual art world, you're an independent thinker. 1:33:33.920 --> 1:33:36.840 He's a few years older, which makes a difference when 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:40.479 you're twenty, doesn't make a difference when you're seventy. Okay, 1:33:41.160 --> 1:33:44.639 and you he was a spokesman. So in this fifty 1:33:44.680 --> 1:33:48.280 odd years, how have you and Jerry gotten along? 1:33:51.000 --> 1:33:56.040 Very spinal tap But you know, it's like, to tell 1:33:56.040 --> 1:34:00.360 you the truth, I really respect what he did and 1:34:01.000 --> 1:34:05.680 who he is, and and we are quite different. You know, 1:34:05.840 --> 1:34:10.120 we are quite different as artists. But you know it's 1:34:10.160 --> 1:34:13.519 like I think, if we wouldn't have both been there, 1:34:13.800 --> 1:34:18.679 it wouldn't have been devo. And so I'm really thankful 1:34:18.720 --> 1:34:18.960 for that. 1:34:20.280 --> 1:34:23.439 Okay, let's go back to the silk call. Well, the 1:34:23.479 --> 1:34:29.400 early days, you formalize you have this movie that wins. 1:34:29.479 --> 1:34:30.920 You know, it's not you're a movie, but you're in 1:34:30.960 --> 1:34:36.160 it whatever, blah blah blah. You're on the path. But 1:34:36.760 --> 1:34:42.680 the breakthrough comes years later. How did you maintain optimism 1:34:42.720 --> 1:34:45.000 and say this is gonna work or maybe you didn't 1:34:45.160 --> 1:34:47.120 think it was gonna work. Maybe times you're going to 1:34:47.160 --> 1:34:49.599 give up. What was going on in your mind in 1:34:49.680 --> 1:34:51.280 those years? 1:34:52.560 --> 1:34:56.320 Well, I I just loved it, you know, I was 1:34:56.479 --> 1:34:59.519 enjoying it the whole time. To me, the idea of 1:34:59.560 --> 1:35:03.480 writing more music and coming up with more artistic ideas 1:35:03.720 --> 1:35:08.200 and making what we were doing bigger and better. I 1:35:08.240 --> 1:35:12.479 think Jerry was I love the idea of like working 1:35:12.520 --> 1:35:14.920 on it too. I we we both did, and and 1:35:17.720 --> 1:35:20.080 you know, it did take years for things to change. 1:35:20.280 --> 1:35:23.200 And you know, there were times when I thought, well, 1:35:23.200 --> 1:35:25.360 maybe this is as good as it gets. But I 1:35:25.400 --> 1:35:31.759 do remember, uh when Whip It became a hit, and 1:35:31.920 --> 1:35:35.320 all of a sudden, you know, like little kids would 1:35:35.479 --> 1:35:38.240 stop when I was walking down Wilsher Boulevard going to 1:35:38.360 --> 1:35:42.040 a print store or something, and like a little kid goes, hey, 1:35:42.560 --> 1:35:44.719 did you sing on that Jermaine Jackson song? 1:35:44.840 --> 1:35:45.040 You know? 1:35:45.160 --> 1:35:51.679 Or whatever? And I remember thinking, I'm going to always 1:35:51.720 --> 1:35:53.840 remember this time. This might be as good as it 1:35:53.880 --> 1:35:56.320 ever gets, and if it is, I want to I 1:35:56.320 --> 1:35:58.360 want to remember it forever and enjoy it. 1:36:00.160 --> 1:36:04.040 In that initial period prior to the first breakup and 1:36:04.160 --> 1:36:10.720 you moving into visual entertainment and making music, that did 1:36:10.720 --> 1:36:11.920 you guys make any money? 1:36:14.800 --> 1:36:21.919 Uh? When we signed a record deal, we were concerned 1:36:21.920 --> 1:36:29.720 about that, uh, And we decided we would rather than 1:36:30.000 --> 1:36:32.639 you know, you'd get your money from the record company 1:36:32.680 --> 1:36:35.360 and publishers, you know, in big chunks, you know, and 1:36:35.400 --> 1:36:38.439 we said, well, rather than like hand it out to 1:36:38.479 --> 1:36:44.840 everybody at once, we kind of wisely decided we're gonna 1:36:44.880 --> 1:36:48.000 pay ourselves the same amount of money as Los Angeles 1:36:48.040 --> 1:36:50.760 school teachers get. And that's basically what we did. We 1:36:50.800 --> 1:36:53.800 gave each other. We gave us ourselves enough so we 1:36:53.840 --> 1:36:59.720 could make our car payments, make our our our rentals, 1:37:00.080 --> 1:37:02.040 you know, for our house, and pay for our food. 1:37:02.080 --> 1:37:06.200 And uh, we didn't take all the money in one chunk, 1:37:06.240 --> 1:37:08.200 which a lot of bands did, and then they blew it, 1:37:08.360 --> 1:37:12.200 you know, like like in six months and they'd have nothing. 1:37:12.479 --> 1:37:18.000 And so we were we never uh you know, we didn't. 1:37:18.040 --> 1:37:20.040 We weren't the band that went out and bought mansions 1:37:20.040 --> 1:37:23.080 and Cadillacs in the first the first time, you know, 1:37:23.240 --> 1:37:27.240 with our first paycheck. So we were always and we 1:37:27.280 --> 1:37:31.320 always felt like, well, maybe we will never you know, 1:37:31.400 --> 1:37:33.880 maybe it'll never be bigger than this, and so we 1:37:33.960 --> 1:37:35.840 have to be. And the truth of the matter is, 1:37:36.040 --> 1:37:41.200 you know, it's like, you know, we're not anywhere near 1:37:41.320 --> 1:37:43.519 like the size of like somebody like the food fighters 1:37:43.560 --> 1:37:47.800 who followed you know later. You know, it's like those 1:37:47.880 --> 1:37:50.719 kind of bands are tight or even so much bigger 1:37:50.760 --> 1:37:53.880 than us and play much bigger venues than us. But 1:37:55.960 --> 1:37:59.160 you know, I think we kind of I don't know, personally, 1:37:59.200 --> 1:38:01.880 I'm pretty thanks for what I've gotten to do. 1:38:02.360 --> 1:38:05.200 Just to make a side comment here, however big the 1:38:05.240 --> 1:38:09.679 Foo fighters are in terms of playing arenas and regenerating revenue, 1:38:10.040 --> 1:38:13.839 they've had less cultural impact than DEVO period. 1:38:15.080 --> 1:38:17.040 Well I take that as a compliment, thank you. 1:38:17.080 --> 1:38:22.639 So it's beyond the compliment because it's not a mathematical thing. 1:38:22.680 --> 1:38:26.479 It's a conceptual thing. There was a lot of thought 1:38:27.000 --> 1:38:30.519 that went behind DEVO. There was a lot of thought 1:38:30.560 --> 1:38:34.120 about how the audience would or would not react. There 1:38:34.160 --> 1:38:38.320 was an art background. It wasn't as simple as let's 1:38:38.400 --> 1:38:41.000 you know, do verse chorus verse, Let's get all these people, 1:38:41.040 --> 1:38:43.320 get the company behind it and running up the chart 1:38:43.439 --> 1:38:46.880 and you know, get guarantees. You know that all comes 1:38:46.920 --> 1:38:51.479 in for everybody. But just jumping you know forward a 1:38:51.479 --> 1:38:56.880 few steps at this late date, are there devot royalties? 1:39:01.200 --> 1:39:08.240 Yeah? Yeah, you know, I don't think it's an an enough. 1:39:08.280 --> 1:39:10.600 We could live off of just the royalties, to be 1:39:10.640 --> 1:39:14.799 honest with you, but but that's why we play shows. 1:39:14.880 --> 1:39:18.720 So we're playing shows this year. I mean we had 1:39:18.760 --> 1:39:22.599 a few anomalies every now and then. Uh Ridiculousness made 1:39:22.600 --> 1:39:26.200 a deal with us. When they started that they thought 1:39:26.240 --> 1:39:28.160 they were only going to do one season and then 1:39:28.200 --> 1:39:32.320 go away, and then they've done like three hundred episodes 1:39:32.520 --> 1:39:37.040 and they kind of their lawyers out tricked themselves when 1:39:37.040 --> 1:39:39.640 they did the deal. And so we've we've gotten like 1:39:40.439 --> 1:39:43.360 nice payoff off of that show, off of that uh 1:39:45.000 --> 1:39:48.080 uh you know, Royalty Stream. But you know it's like 1:39:48.880 --> 1:39:52.679 for the most part, you know, we're playing, we're going out. 1:39:52.800 --> 1:39:55.360 We're already planning on shows we're gonna play next year, 1:39:55.640 --> 1:39:56.960 and uh. 1:39:56.640 --> 1:40:01.200 Well are you going now? You personally, you have a 1:40:01.280 --> 1:40:06.120 star studied career as a composer. Are you going out 1:40:06.520 --> 1:40:09.559 for the money? Are you going out because you want 1:40:09.560 --> 1:40:11.800 to play? What is the motivation because for a long 1:40:11.840 --> 1:40:13.040 time you weren't working live. 1:40:14.560 --> 1:40:21.920 Yeah, I think I'm just I'm enjoying it more and 1:40:22.160 --> 1:40:25.519 we've I found ways to enjoy it. You know, it's 1:40:25.560 --> 1:40:29.160 like touring when you start off, you know, like when 1:40:29.800 --> 1:40:32.720 you know, when you're in your twenties, mid twenties and 1:40:32.880 --> 1:40:35.679 somebody comes downstairs and goes, oh my god, all these 1:40:35.680 --> 1:40:38.839 people were in my room last night. And they flooded 1:40:38.840 --> 1:40:43.080 the bathroom and the pillows are soaking wet, and blah 1:40:43.080 --> 1:40:45.320 blah blah, and everybody's laughing. And you go to the 1:40:45.360 --> 1:40:47.759 car and now it's like when you're in your mid seventies. 1:40:47.800 --> 1:40:50.160 It's like everybody's standing there at the curtain. I go, 1:40:51.720 --> 1:40:53.960 the car was supposed to be here three minutes ago. 1:40:54.479 --> 1:40:56.559 You know, it's like everybody's got it. You know, you've 1:40:56.600 --> 1:40:59.360 already done it, You've been you already know that you're 1:40:59.360 --> 1:41:05.000 going to go to you know, Minneapolis tomorrow and you're 1:41:05.040 --> 1:41:08.760 going to check into a hotel. You're going to have 1:41:08.800 --> 1:41:12.160 an hour or two before you go to soundcheck, and 1:41:12.160 --> 1:41:14.600 then you're at the venue all day and then you 1:41:14.640 --> 1:41:16.559 play your show and then you come back to the 1:41:16.600 --> 1:41:20.120 hotel and you pack everything up because the next morning 1:41:20.160 --> 1:41:24.680 you're taking off for another city. And so it's not 1:41:24.760 --> 1:41:28.640 as exciting as it was at one time. But I 1:41:28.720 --> 1:41:32.960 found ways like where I can do both art and 1:41:33.280 --> 1:41:36.080 I write music. Like I was working on scoring a 1:41:36.080 --> 1:41:40.000 film on our last tour, and that so I was 1:41:40.000 --> 1:41:42.680 in different cities every day and I'd set up my 1:41:42.760 --> 1:41:47.519 computer and my keyboard and I could I could write 1:41:47.520 --> 1:41:49.559 for a film and that was that was kind of 1:41:49.600 --> 1:41:53.679 taking up my time making it enjoyable. And everybody loves 1:41:53.800 --> 1:41:56.120 the hour and a half you're on stage, you know. 1:41:56.200 --> 1:42:00.360 The time you're on stage is like, you know, it's 1:42:00.400 --> 1:42:02.120 kind of like as close as you get to be 1:42:02.160 --> 1:42:04.599 in twenty five again when you're seventy five, you know, 1:42:05.280 --> 1:42:08.200 and uh, we enjoy that, and then it's like then 1:42:08.439 --> 1:42:11.799 you just figure out ways to enjoy the other hours. 1:42:11.920 --> 1:42:15.799 Jerry has his thing. He he loves food. He's a foodie, 1:42:16.280 --> 1:42:22.120 so he's already booked restaurants and is concerned about if 1:42:22.120 --> 1:42:24.360 we're going to get done in time, if there's enough 1:42:24.360 --> 1:42:26.160 time for him to make it over to the restaurant 1:42:26.160 --> 1:42:28.880 before it closes, and and he's got his own thing. 1:42:28.920 --> 1:42:33.880 And for me, it's it's I it's like I draw 1:42:33.880 --> 1:42:39.599 on these cards and I've I'm that they're they're they're 1:42:40.160 --> 1:42:43.120 that that makes me happy. They're they're like my therapy 1:42:43.280 --> 1:42:49.920 and my simple, inexpensive way to uh to enjoy the world. 1:42:50.840 --> 1:42:58.400 Have you been in therapy? No, never, I think I'm 1:42:59.240 --> 1:43:02.840 in entire life, I've never went to a psychiatrist, therapist whatever. 1:43:03.600 --> 1:43:05.720 I think. Yes, I did one time and then it 1:43:05.760 --> 1:43:11.439 was it was she was she did something like she 1:43:11.479 --> 1:43:14.120 came over while I was sitting on a sofa and 1:43:14.200 --> 1:43:20.679 she put her knees on my feet and then leaned 1:43:20.720 --> 1:43:22.840 into me and put her arms around my neck. And 1:43:22.880 --> 1:43:25.599 I thought, you know, I don't know where this is going, 1:43:25.680 --> 1:43:31.160 but this is but it's not my style. So I 1:43:31.240 --> 1:43:32.439 only went to one session. 1:43:33.160 --> 1:43:35.760 Why did you go to a therapist? And why did 1:43:35.760 --> 1:43:37.519 you go to see that particular person? 1:43:39.840 --> 1:43:41.760 God, I don't remember who she came. Oh, you know, 1:43:42.040 --> 1:43:46.360 it's a doctor I used to go to. And we 1:43:46.360 --> 1:43:49.760 were just talking about what makes you happy and what 1:43:49.840 --> 1:43:53.360 makes you not happy. And this was like I don't know, 1:43:53.439 --> 1:43:56.960 twenty years ago or something, twenty years ago or something, 1:43:57.840 --> 1:43:59.800 and he said, well, why don't you go see this there? 1:44:00.080 --> 1:44:02.080 So he just out of the blues suggested I go 1:44:02.120 --> 1:44:03.519 to a therapist. So I did. 1:44:04.400 --> 1:44:09.280 Well, you know, you're smiling, you're busy, you never get depressed. 1:44:09.439 --> 1:44:11.320 You see, you're an optimist, you never get depressed, you 1:44:11.360 --> 1:44:13.440 never get down. 1:44:13.840 --> 1:44:18.080 Uh, there's things that depressed me. But I'm actually I'm 1:44:20.080 --> 1:44:26.639 I uh, I'm probably well, I think compared to other people. 1:44:26.680 --> 1:44:29.840 I know, I'm probably a lot less depressed than a 1:44:29.840 --> 1:44:32.000 lot of I do have friends that are depressed and 1:44:32.040 --> 1:44:37.640 it's that's not a fun thing to be And now 1:44:37.720 --> 1:44:39.920 I don't I don't think of myself as depressed. 1:44:47.880 --> 1:44:53.639 Okay, so what comes first, the breakup of Devo or 1:44:53.680 --> 1:44:55.200 your composing career. 1:45:00.080 --> 1:45:05.720 Oh well, I mean in a way, I don't ever 1:45:05.760 --> 1:45:13.960 see Devo breaking up, because you know, we're an idea 1:45:14.400 --> 1:45:17.559 that we did and that it was. I mean, even 1:45:17.560 --> 1:45:22.960 my composing career is I think it's I think a 1:45:22.960 --> 1:45:25.120 lot of the way I think about music when I 1:45:25.120 --> 1:45:28.240 write music for films is the same way I thought 1:45:28.240 --> 1:45:30.800 about it when I wrote music for Divo. It's just 1:45:31.360 --> 1:45:38.920 you have different things you're taking into consideration. So I 1:45:38.960 --> 1:45:46.200 don't know, it's like composing for films. Yeah, that probably 1:45:46.200 --> 1:45:49.400 would go first. I'm pretty sure it would. I think 1:45:49.439 --> 1:45:51.280 Devo would be around for a long time. 1:45:53.439 --> 1:46:00.840 Okay. You had this crazy bout with COVID nineteen. Tell 1:46:00.920 --> 1:46:01.559 us about it. 1:46:02.640 --> 1:46:06.320 Oh yeah, I was a guinea pig for COVID when 1:46:06.320 --> 1:46:10.160 it first happened. I somehow signed up to be one 1:46:10.160 --> 1:46:12.800 of the first people to get it, and they didn't 1:46:12.800 --> 1:46:14.880 have any treatment for it. The only thing they had 1:46:14.920 --> 1:46:17.280 is they thought they'd put people on ventilators. Well, I 1:46:17.320 --> 1:46:19.880 have really strong lungs. There was no reason to put 1:46:19.880 --> 1:46:24.840 me on a ventilator, but they did, and somehow in 1:46:24.880 --> 1:46:28.120 the process. In the first day or so, when they 1:46:29.439 --> 1:46:33.760 put this tube down my throat, I got hit in 1:46:33.800 --> 1:46:37.479 the eye. My eyes were closed, so I didn't see 1:46:37.520 --> 1:46:40.639 it happened, but I got hit in the eye and 1:46:41.000 --> 1:46:42.760 it hurt so bad. I pulled the tube out of 1:46:42.760 --> 1:46:45.400 my throat. I said, what did you do to my eye? 1:46:45.560 --> 1:46:48.360 And I was looking at a woman who had a 1:46:48.439 --> 1:46:52.880 plastic faceguard on, and I heard a man that I 1:46:52.920 --> 1:46:55.960 couldn't see that was like moving me like in my bed, 1:46:56.080 --> 1:46:58.599 probably just you know, moving you around like a sack 1:46:58.600 --> 1:47:05.519 of potatoes, he said, sedate him and whatever drug they 1:47:05.520 --> 1:47:08.479 put me on, I remember before I passed out, I went, hey, 1:47:08.520 --> 1:47:13.519 this is pretty great. And I don't know what it was. 1:47:13.560 --> 1:47:16.760 But I never take drugs. I never was I never 1:47:16.840 --> 1:47:20.120 really got into drugs. I don't think I even drank 1:47:20.160 --> 1:47:27.960 coffee till I was in my forties. And so they 1:47:29.360 --> 1:47:31.920 they kept me there way too long. They kept me 1:47:31.960 --> 1:47:34.639 there for like twenty days before they let me out, 1:47:34.920 --> 1:47:37.000 and they tried to talk my wife into letting them 1:47:37.040 --> 1:47:41.160 put me in a coma. And I feel like The 1:47:41.160 --> 1:47:43.640 only reason they did that was because they sent a 1:47:43.720 --> 1:47:47.280 lawyer down after they woke me up, after they gave 1:47:47.320 --> 1:47:51.519 me that first sedation. They woke me up, and this 1:47:51.640 --> 1:47:54.160 lawyer is like writing things down, saying, so, what are 1:47:54.200 --> 1:47:56.320 you saying about your eye? And I go, I don't know, 1:47:56.400 --> 1:47:59.760 but my eye's not working and it was totally red 1:48:00.040 --> 1:48:05.480 bloated my eyeball basically, so I to this day it's like, ironically, 1:48:07.240 --> 1:48:11.360 my vision in that eye is similar to my vision 1:48:11.800 --> 1:48:13.840 when I was the first eight years of my life 1:48:17.360 --> 1:48:22.479 before I had glasses. And it's kind of interesting because 1:48:22.479 --> 1:48:23.840 I have one eye like that and then I have 1:48:23.880 --> 1:48:29.240 one eye that's twenty twenty. But they, you know, they 1:48:29.320 --> 1:48:34.320 just they finally let me out, thankfully, and I've been 1:48:34.800 --> 1:48:37.880 you know, it's created problems for me, both for singing. 1:48:39.960 --> 1:48:41.800 There's a couple notes that are hard to sing, but 1:48:41.840 --> 1:48:44.720 I think they're coming back. I think everything's eventually coming back. 1:48:44.880 --> 1:48:47.400 I kind of changed some of the melodies and some 1:48:47.479 --> 1:48:53.519 of our songs to fit where I can where I 1:48:53.520 --> 1:48:56.960 can sing, and nobody notices it. Really, I mean, it's 1:48:57.000 --> 1:49:00.280 not like Devo Hat, you know, it's not like Harbor 1:49:00.320 --> 1:49:03.320 Streisan or something, you know, or Pavaratti. You know, it's like, 1:49:03.880 --> 1:49:06.040 you know, I did a lot of ranting when I 1:49:06.120 --> 1:49:09.960 was singing, so so it kind of it's kind of 1:49:10.000 --> 1:49:14.840 all right. The vision is still a problem. It's like 1:49:15.680 --> 1:49:18.680 it's like hard for me to work with computers for 1:49:19.040 --> 1:49:23.320 long periods of time. My eyes get really tired. But yeah, 1:49:23.320 --> 1:49:27.000 that was it. That was my and I think finally 1:49:27.360 --> 1:49:29.640 when they did try a drug out on me, it 1:49:29.720 --> 1:49:33.240 was the one that they ended up using on Trump 1:49:34.040 --> 1:49:37.599 a year later or so. So I was a guinea 1:49:37.600 --> 1:49:38.679 pig for Donald Trump. 1:49:38.720 --> 1:49:42.640 I guess, so the notes you lost, that's because you 1:49:42.640 --> 1:49:50.120 were intobated. Yeah. I saw a picture of my vocal 1:49:50.160 --> 1:49:53.800 cords like about eight or nine years before that, when 1:49:53.920 --> 1:49:59.599 Devo played somewhere some convention hall or some big place 1:49:59.680 --> 1:50:02.240 and Enver and and they had a they had a 1:50:02.320 --> 1:50:08.200 vocal doctor, and they saw me coughing because we'd been 1:50:08.200 --> 1:50:11.120 playing every night and I was coughing at sound check. 1:50:11.200 --> 1:50:14.439 And after sound check, the promoter said, hey, why don't 1:50:14.479 --> 1:50:17.080 you go check out? Why don't you go see the doctor? 1:50:17.240 --> 1:50:18.880 And I went and saw him, and while we're talking, 1:50:19.320 --> 1:50:21.559 he put a camera up my nose, down into my 1:50:22.320 --> 1:50:28.000 throat and he said, oh, you have a acid reflux, 1:50:28.120 --> 1:50:30.280 I think. And so I was like, oh, what do 1:50:30.320 --> 1:50:30.840 you do about that? 1:50:30.920 --> 1:50:33.639 And he says, when he just gave me some ideas 1:50:33.640 --> 1:50:37.080 on how to you know, reduce acid reflux. But I 1:50:37.080 --> 1:50:39.680 saw what my vocal cords looked like, and they were perfect. 1:50:39.920 --> 1:50:43.640 They were like, you know, like this shape and you know, 1:50:43.960 --> 1:50:47.639 and they were they were perfect. And then when after 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:51.439 I was in the hospital with COVID, I went and 1:50:51.560 --> 1:50:55.760 I saw my vocal chords. They did it again to 1:50:55.840 --> 1:50:58.519 look because I told him I was having problems singing, 1:50:59.120 --> 1:51:00.960 and they looked at my vocal chords and there was 1:51:01.040 --> 1:51:05.160 a like a terror, you know, like like a scar 1:51:05.320 --> 1:51:12.400 tissue about halfway through on one side. And I don't know, 1:51:12.479 --> 1:51:16.280 I'm slowly getting that back. My singing in the in 1:51:16.520 --> 1:51:21.040 those notes is slowly coming back. So that's the good news. 1:51:21.320 --> 1:51:27.360 Okay, when you are on stage, you're amped up. I 1:51:27.360 --> 1:51:30.240 wouldn't say you're playing a character, but you're tell there's 1:51:30.280 --> 1:51:35.280 a lot of energy different from the average act. Do 1:51:35.360 --> 1:51:37.760 you have to get yourself in that space or you 1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:40.639 just go on stage and you can get there? 1:51:42.080 --> 1:51:44.120 You know, that's kind of us. We kind of do 1:51:44.280 --> 1:51:47.400 that anyhow, you know, it's like our drummer has to. 1:51:48.040 --> 1:51:49.479 He sits there in the other room, and he's like 1:51:49.520 --> 1:51:54.599 going on a on a on a you know, practice pad, 1:51:55.040 --> 1:51:57.720 you know, before he goes out on stage. And and 1:51:57.800 --> 1:52:00.599 he's got the most physical job of all of us, 1:52:00.880 --> 1:52:03.439 so he's doing that. And then afterwards he soaks his 1:52:03.560 --> 1:52:07.200 arms and epsom salt water and and he's got a 1:52:07.200 --> 1:52:08.800 bunch of stuff he has to do. But we're all 1:52:08.880 --> 1:52:13.800 kind of we're just kind of programmed. We are who 1:52:13.840 --> 1:52:16.920 we are, you know, and it's like we come out 1:52:16.920 --> 1:52:17.360 and do it. 1:52:19.439 --> 1:52:22.320 Okay. You talk about the era when you were first 1:52:22.400 --> 1:52:26.320 touring in the twenty people in your hotel room. You know, 1:52:27.120 --> 1:52:29.720 you're from an era with the sex drugs in rock 1:52:29.800 --> 1:52:34.679 and roll. To what degree did you participate in that stuff? 1:52:37.280 --> 1:52:44.240 Well, now, the drug thing I was never interested in. Uh, 1:52:46.000 --> 1:52:52.719 the sex I liked and but but it wasn't long 1:52:52.800 --> 1:52:56.960 after we, you know, became popular. Wasn't it long after 1:52:57.000 --> 1:53:02.599 whip it before people would say, hey, Mark Harris. Harris 1:53:02.680 --> 1:53:06.760 just went to the to the doctor with I thought 1:53:06.760 --> 1:53:09.439 he had the flu. He checked into the hospital on Friday, 1:53:09.479 --> 1:53:12.720 and it would be Monday morning. He says, he died yesterday. 1:53:13.200 --> 1:53:17.080 Like what why'd he died of the flu. And this 1:53:17.320 --> 1:53:19.880 was like eighty one or eighty two. It was the 1:53:19.920 --> 1:53:23.639 beginning of aides. So we were at the very last 1:53:23.800 --> 1:53:27.479 years of the sex, drugs and rock and roll by 1:53:27.520 --> 1:53:31.639 the by eighty two eighty three, it's like you were. 1:53:32.560 --> 1:53:35.600 You had to be really careful who you and you 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:37.400 know who who you let in your room and it 1:53:37.880 --> 1:53:40.559 but it is crazy. There was a time where people 1:53:40.600 --> 1:53:43.600 were like just knocking on your hotel room door or 1:53:43.640 --> 1:53:47.000 sticking pictures of themselves underneath the door asking you to 1:53:47.080 --> 1:53:50.600 let him in. It was a We were part of 1:53:50.600 --> 1:53:54.400 that crazy era for a while. Unlucky none of us 1:53:54.479 --> 1:53:55.200 ever got sick. 1:53:56.320 --> 1:53:59.920 And so what's your everyday life like? Are you working 1:54:00.080 --> 1:54:05.280 all the time, you had contact with friends, you watch 1:54:05.320 --> 1:54:08.000 in streaming television? What's it like? 1:54:09.240 --> 1:54:12.240 Well, now it's sex, drugs and rock and roll every day. No, 1:54:14.160 --> 1:54:19.280 I get up. My wife has four small dogs and 1:54:19.400 --> 1:54:24.719 we deal with that. And right now we're fortunate enough 1:54:24.760 --> 1:54:29.479 that our one daughter, who is an artist, is staying 1:54:29.479 --> 1:54:32.200 at our house for a little while, so we're enjoying 1:54:32.240 --> 1:54:37.040 that that she's around. But I eventually I drive down 1:54:37.080 --> 1:54:41.440 the hill and I check into the green round building 1:54:41.480 --> 1:54:46.120 on Sunset Strip. And I write music every day, and 1:54:46.200 --> 1:54:53.800 I do artwork every day. And my you know, my 1:54:53.920 --> 1:54:57.720 big thing is grocery shopping. I hate to say it, 1:54:57.760 --> 1:55:01.680 but it's like I'll I'll go to maybe three grocery 1:55:01.720 --> 1:55:06.440 stores to get the different things that we want for 1:55:06.480 --> 1:55:09.520 dinner that night, because there's there's a one grocery store 1:55:09.520 --> 1:55:14.400 that has the best produce and one that has other 1:55:14.480 --> 1:55:16.640 things that we really that my kids like or my 1:55:16.680 --> 1:55:21.680 wife likes a lot, and and so I kinda I 1:55:21.760 --> 1:55:25.960 kind of enjoy that. I don't really enjoy clothing shopping anymore. 1:55:26.000 --> 1:55:28.360 It's like I'm not into fashion that much. 1:55:28.400 --> 1:55:28.960 I used to be. 1:55:29.000 --> 1:55:31.360 At one time, I was kind of really I was 1:55:31.400 --> 1:55:34.880 really intrigued with what was going on in the early 1:55:34.960 --> 1:55:39.360 eighties in Japan and in Europe, and but also the 1:55:40.200 --> 1:55:45.400 I liked just what designers were doing. And then then 1:55:45.440 --> 1:55:50.560 it went into the two low low tech, you know, 1:55:50.840 --> 1:55:55.400 like jeans and T shirts and and sweaters, and like 1:55:55.480 --> 1:55:58.839 now it doesn't matter if you're a billionaire or a lawyer, 1:55:59.120 --> 1:56:02.600 or a or a kid in high school or you're 1:56:02.680 --> 1:56:05.560 a school teacher. Everybody kind of wears the same thing 1:56:05.680 --> 1:56:08.760 more than they ever did. It's pretty rare to see 1:56:08.800 --> 1:56:13.320 somebody walking around, you know, in a suit, or at 1:56:13.400 --> 1:56:17.320 least they still do. But you know, it's it's it's 1:56:17.760 --> 1:56:21.680 that number's gone down, and then there's really fashion is 1:56:21.760 --> 1:56:25.160 just kind of at a strange place. I'm hoping that 1:56:25.440 --> 1:56:27.600 that all the craziness that's going on now is going 1:56:27.640 --> 1:56:35.320 to inspire artists and inspire stylists and inspire creative people 1:56:35.520 --> 1:56:36.360 in every walk. 1:56:37.080 --> 1:56:40.400 So, who knows what are the three grocery stores? 1:56:45.120 --> 1:56:47.680 Well, there's probably five, if I want to get serious 1:56:47.680 --> 1:56:52.960 about the numbers, because they there's five or six, but 1:56:54.080 --> 1:56:58.560 they're just they're a couple of them are in West Hollywood, 1:56:58.600 --> 1:57:01.880 A couple of them are in Hollywood, Good h I 1:57:01.960 --> 1:57:04.520 mostly just there's one in Beverly Hills and then they 1:57:04.560 --> 1:57:08.720 all just kind of it just depends on what we're eating. 1:57:09.160 --> 1:57:11.160 So the Bristol Farms in Beverly. 1:57:10.880 --> 1:57:14.040 Hills, yeah, oh they're okay, okay. 1:57:14.200 --> 1:57:17.320 And does Whole Foods or Arawans show up in any 1:57:17.360 --> 1:57:18.480 of this shopping. 1:57:18.920 --> 1:57:24.560 Of course, Erewon's and uh, well and there's yeah there 1:57:24.600 --> 1:57:29.000 there there's more. There's a Gelson's and uh there's one 1:57:29.000 --> 1:57:32.600 called Mothers that I just uh, it's a little further away, 1:57:32.720 --> 1:57:42.880 but it has different kinds of of My wife likes likes, 1:57:43.040 --> 1:57:49.960 uh herbal, herbal medicinal things, and so they seem to 1:57:50.000 --> 1:57:54.360 have a different, uh they have a different level of 1:57:54.360 --> 1:57:58.320 stuff than than arawans or sprouts. They're they're all, they're 1:57:58.360 --> 1:58:00.040 all different and they. 1:58:00.000 --> 1:58:04.440 As far as the mainstream, the Ralphs, the VODs, you 1:58:04.480 --> 1:58:06.920 ever go there, you have an opinion on those. 1:58:07.600 --> 1:58:13.600 Well, yeah, I mean Ralphs has there's these I found 1:58:13.600 --> 1:58:16.720 out about something. I think it's called Kingston. I don't 1:58:16.760 --> 1:58:18.880 know if that's what it is, but they make these 1:58:19.000 --> 1:58:23.560 foil bags you can barbecue things in, and it makes 1:58:23.600 --> 1:58:29.080 barbecuing on an outdoor grill so easy. And so if 1:58:29.120 --> 1:58:31.240 we're doing a barbecue, I have to stop, buy a 1:58:31.320 --> 1:58:32.720 Ralphs and grab a bunch of those. 1:58:33.840 --> 1:58:38.040 So you're in your office, you go home for dinner 1:58:38.080 --> 1:58:38.760 every night. 1:58:41.640 --> 1:58:44.040 Most of the time. I mean, you know, we eat 1:58:44.080 --> 1:58:46.920 out a lot, and then we also we get lazy 1:58:46.960 --> 1:58:50.520 and we order in too, So it all happens. 1:58:50.680 --> 1:58:54.800 I guess you know those hours after work, what are 1:58:54.840 --> 1:58:59.360 you filling them with other than eating working on art? 1:58:59.480 --> 1:59:03.240 You show me, yeah, working on it. If I told 1:59:03.280 --> 1:59:08.240 you that cards that size since the early seventies to now. 1:59:09.920 --> 1:59:12.280 Every time I get a hundred done, you know, you 1:59:12.360 --> 1:59:13.880 do them one at a time, and every time I 1:59:13.920 --> 1:59:19.400 finish one hundred, I put them in these read archival 1:59:19.480 --> 1:59:24.200 books that they've been making ever since the sixties. Was 1:59:24.280 --> 1:59:28.000 at I was a stamp nerd, a stamp collector nerd 1:59:28.040 --> 1:59:31.640 when I was in high school, So I knew that 1:59:31.720 --> 1:59:35.280 they had these books that held postcards. And so when 1:59:35.280 --> 1:59:37.080 I was getting a stack of postcards, I thought, well, 1:59:37.120 --> 1:59:39.440 I better get a book to put them in. They 1:59:39.520 --> 1:59:41.960 still make that same book all these years later, at 1:59:42.000 --> 1:59:45.160 the exact same book, archival book. And so I've been 1:59:46.520 --> 1:59:49.640 I think I'm up to around seven hundred and fifty 1:59:49.760 --> 1:59:54.640 of these books that each have one hundred pieces of art, 1:59:55.120 --> 2:00:02.160 pieces of poetry, pieces of collage, were sketches, all different 2:00:02.240 --> 2:00:02.880 kinds of things. 2:00:11.080 --> 2:00:16.200 Okay, my favorite Devot album is Do Traditionalists. That's the 2:00:16.240 --> 2:00:20.920 one where suddenly you're producing it yourself. But it sounds 2:00:20.960 --> 2:00:22.920 you know, lots of bands produce themselves, they go off 2:00:22.960 --> 2:00:27.800 the rails. So what was it like producing yourself as 2:00:27.840 --> 2:00:29.680 opposed to dealing with these other people? 2:00:31.760 --> 2:00:38.480 In some ways, it was a lot better because you know, 2:00:41.040 --> 2:00:44.160 he was I think he was unprepared for us, and 2:00:44.200 --> 2:00:47.480 we were kind of unprepared for him. He really wanted 2:00:47.520 --> 2:00:50.120 to I think he wanted to make a bigger aesthetic, 2:00:52.160 --> 2:00:59.840 have a bigger aesthetic input than he got. About five 2:01:00.080 --> 2:01:03.920 years ago, I was transferring over the twenty four tracks 2:01:04.000 --> 2:01:08.720 that we had recorded with him to digital, and I'm 2:01:08.760 --> 2:01:12.120 looking at He's got his beautiful handwriting of all because 2:01:12.160 --> 2:01:14.440 it was before automation when we did this album in 2:01:14.480 --> 2:01:17.960 seventy eight. It was like his beautiful handwriting of all 2:01:17.960 --> 2:01:20.840 the eqs and all the effects and everything. But I'm 2:01:20.880 --> 2:01:24.200 looking at I'm seeing things like there's channels and it 2:01:24.240 --> 2:01:29.120 says Brian's guitar part. Then I see another channel called 2:01:29.840 --> 2:01:34.640 David's vocals, meaning David Bowie. And I'd see these on 2:01:34.840 --> 2:01:37.520 like almost every single track. There were all these, and 2:01:37.560 --> 2:01:41.160 then I remembered that when we were mixing them, he 2:01:41.200 --> 2:01:44.320 would he was like trying to put you know, other 2:01:44.440 --> 2:01:49.280 things into the songs, you know, synth parts, and and 2:01:49.920 --> 2:01:53.440 we did use some of it. I mean, we did 2:01:53.560 --> 2:01:58.760 use David and Brian's backup vocals on Uncontrollable Urge, for instance, 2:01:59.360 --> 2:02:06.240 and he put like monkey chants in Chockohomo and we 2:02:06.360 --> 2:02:08.840 tried to like make a tape of that and then 2:02:09.080 --> 2:02:11.200 recreate it live, and it was impossible because it was 2:02:11.240 --> 2:02:14.960 back before the days of midy and so there was 2:02:15.160 --> 2:02:17.560 really no way to sync up with you know. We 2:02:17.560 --> 2:02:20.800 were playing in seven four time, you know, and then 2:02:21.120 --> 2:02:22.960 switching over to four four time, and there was just 2:02:22.960 --> 2:02:25.000 no way to get it to match exactly. It always 2:02:25.000 --> 2:02:28.200 sounded slightly ugly. So we didn't really do that, but 2:02:29.240 --> 2:02:31.640 he said he he once said he was kind of 2:02:31.720 --> 2:02:34.040 unprepared to work with us and didn't know how to 2:02:34.080 --> 2:02:38.040 talk about it. So I was doing things like, you know, 2:02:38.200 --> 2:02:41.040 we'd hit record for recording from the twenty four track 2:02:41.080 --> 2:02:44.880 over to the two track stereo master, and everybody'd be 2:02:44.920 --> 2:02:47.240 looking straight ahead at the speakers, but I'd be standing 2:02:47.240 --> 2:02:49.200 next to Brian and I'd just reach up and pull 2:02:49.320 --> 2:02:53.960 down the tracks that said Brian guitar and David vocals 2:02:54.480 --> 2:02:56.760 and just keeps looking straight ahead and out of my 2:02:56.800 --> 2:02:58.960 peripheral vision, I could see his head snap and look 2:02:59.000 --> 2:03:01.640 at me. But he never said anything. He never challenged 2:03:01.640 --> 2:03:06.680 me about it, and so that was odd. And but 2:03:06.720 --> 2:03:09.040 Bob Martyloff was great to work with. I have to say, 2:03:09.080 --> 2:03:10.640 he was really great and he taught us a lot 2:03:10.680 --> 2:03:16.360 about engineering that I hadn't expected. And he also his 2:03:16.520 --> 2:03:20.480 concept about how to be a producer was different than 2:03:20.520 --> 2:03:23.400 a lot of people. It's definitely different than Ken Scott, 2:03:23.440 --> 2:03:28.800 for instance, or or Roy Thomas Baker. So so it 2:03:28.840 --> 2:03:33.560 was it was I really like him. He keeps saying, 2:03:33.600 --> 2:03:35.920 we mark, we have to do something again, and I'm like, 2:03:36.680 --> 2:03:38.800 you never know, Bob, you never it could happen. 2:03:38.880 --> 2:03:41.520 So what was his philosophy of production that was different? 2:03:42.840 --> 2:03:47.520 Well, he understood that, you know, and this was back 2:03:47.600 --> 2:03:51.280 before automation, so he realized that there were problems like 2:03:51.320 --> 2:03:53.640 if you did a synth sound or a guitar sound 2:03:54.160 --> 2:03:57.840 and you record it with just the drums or something, 2:03:58.120 --> 2:04:00.760 or everybody records as you start mixed at netting and 2:04:00.880 --> 2:04:04.080 vocals and backups and all these things, what you want 2:04:04.080 --> 2:04:12.480 that guitar bass to sound like changes And he did this. 2:04:12.600 --> 2:04:14.880 He taught us this way to record, where you put 2:04:14.960 --> 2:04:20.560 your you would record your like a bass or a 2:04:20.600 --> 2:04:24.080 guitar into two different You'd send a line into two 2:04:24.080 --> 2:04:28.240 different rooms, and you'd record it over two different amplifiers 2:04:28.960 --> 2:04:31.920 so that it sounded totally different in both rooms. And 2:04:31.960 --> 2:04:34.560 then you'd have a direct in also, so you could always, 2:04:34.600 --> 2:04:38.080 you know, go back and use the original guitar sound 2:04:38.160 --> 2:04:44.040 to adjust that sound. And he was really empathetic. He 2:04:44.120 --> 2:04:47.560 was a very empathetic producer. I would recommend him for 2:04:47.600 --> 2:04:51.080 anybody that was looking for somebody like that. He was 2:04:51.280 --> 2:04:54.240 very easy to work with and he was always he 2:04:54.280 --> 2:04:55.760 had a good attitude about things. 2:04:56.160 --> 2:05:00.400 He was. He was very optimist and a hotted Tony 2:05:00.480 --> 2:05:05.280 Basil end up recording It's a Different Name and her albums, 2:05:05.320 --> 2:05:08.400 you got a problem. How did that happen? 2:05:09.360 --> 2:05:11.120 She was one of the first people we met when 2:05:11.160 --> 2:05:16.000 we came out to California. Uh. I was kind of 2:05:16.240 --> 2:05:20.120 really interested in all the all the actors, some older films. 2:05:20.280 --> 2:05:24.400 I was. When I got a chance to meet Dean Stockwell, 2:05:24.520 --> 2:05:27.280 it was totally fascinating to me to meet him and 2:05:27.320 --> 2:05:29.720 to think of him as as a little guy, you know, 2:05:30.480 --> 2:05:33.640 as an actor, and seeing him on screen and then 2:05:33.720 --> 2:05:36.760 seeing him in uh blue velvet and stuff, and and 2:05:36.880 --> 2:05:42.800 uh Dennis Hopper and Russ Tamblin people like that. I 2:05:42.840 --> 2:05:45.560 I really enjoyed joined them and they all had different 2:05:45.560 --> 2:05:50.560 personalities and they had all done different films, and you know, 2:05:52.440 --> 2:05:56.160 I liked hanging out with him, and Tony was Dean 2:05:56.200 --> 2:06:01.160 Stockwell's girlfriend at the time, and then somehow her and 2:06:01.240 --> 2:06:06.200 Jerry started kind of they hit it off and and 2:06:06.560 --> 2:06:09.480 she was one of the early fans of Devo out in. 2:06:11.320 --> 2:06:11.480 L A. 2:06:11.800 --> 2:06:14.960 And I think I'm correct that she introduced us to 2:06:16.480 --> 2:06:20.120 Iggy Pop. Well, well, you know what, Iggy Pop knew 2:06:20.120 --> 2:06:23.520 who we were, because we had given David Bowie some uh, 2:06:24.080 --> 2:06:27.880 some demo cassettes when he when he was playing an 2:06:27.880 --> 2:06:30.520 Iggy's band after they did the first time I think 2:06:30.520 --> 2:06:34.120 it was first one was the Idiot, uh and and 2:06:34.360 --> 2:06:35.960 then he went out on tour with him, and so 2:06:37.120 --> 2:06:39.080 he was one of the people that I thought, if 2:06:39.080 --> 2:06:41.360 I was going to have a producer, I'd want it 2:06:41.360 --> 2:06:44.800 to be either Brian Eno or David Bowie. So we 2:06:44.880 --> 2:06:48.640 got those tapes to them to him and Iggy. When 2:06:48.680 --> 2:06:51.320 they went back to Germany to record LUs for Life, 2:06:51.600 --> 2:06:55.280 h Iggy was digging through a suitcase full of demo 2:06:55.360 --> 2:06:58.040 tapes and pulled the Devo one out and they listened 2:06:58.040 --> 2:07:01.280 to it and they all were laughing. They said, this 2:07:01.320 --> 2:07:06.840 isn't a real band and uh. And he says that 2:07:06.840 --> 2:07:08.600 that some of the a couple of days while they 2:07:08.600 --> 2:07:11.680 were recording. They would just start off the day with, uh, 2:07:11.800 --> 2:07:16.040 you know, hunting Tony Sayles and David and Iggy jamming 2:07:16.240 --> 2:07:22.520 on Devo songs before like uncontrollable urgent stuff because and 2:07:22.520 --> 2:07:27.120 and so. Anyhow, so she told Iggy because they were friends, 2:07:27.200 --> 2:07:30.200 I guess through Bowie. Uh she told When Iggy came 2:07:30.200 --> 2:07:32.240 out to stay in l A for a while, she said, Hey, 2:07:32.520 --> 2:07:35.120 Devo's playing this next weekend, you got to come see 2:07:35.160 --> 2:07:38.960 him with me, and so so she she brought uh 2:07:39.080 --> 2:07:44.760 Iggy over to see us, and uh, that's that's kind 2:07:44.760 --> 2:07:46.400 of how that happened. 2:07:46.680 --> 2:07:49.200 Do you care about Devo's legacy or not? 2:07:51.080 --> 2:07:57.160 Well, yeah, you know, I think one of the things 2:07:57.240 --> 2:08:00.920 unique about Devo. You know, I would never say I 2:08:01.040 --> 2:08:04.200 was the singer that ninety percent of the singers that 2:08:04.320 --> 2:08:08.040 sing in bands, you know, at the same time as me. 2:08:08.080 --> 2:08:10.800 I would never say that Jerry could play bass as 2:08:10.840 --> 2:08:13.400 good as ninety percent of the bass player ninety five 2:08:13.440 --> 2:08:16.240 percent of the bass players that were putting out records 2:08:16.240 --> 2:08:21.440 at that time. But I would say that by being 2:08:21.560 --> 2:08:31.400 artists and being conceptualists and thinking about our music from 2:08:31.560 --> 2:08:36.640 a totally different angle than most bands ever, did I 2:08:36.720 --> 2:08:39.960 think I think it gave people. I think it gives 2:08:40.000 --> 2:08:44.720 us reason to be to be remembered, to have a 2:08:44.800 --> 2:08:52.200 legacy to because people can think differently about how and 2:08:52.240 --> 2:08:54.640 why you do a band. I mean, all the bands 2:08:55.200 --> 2:08:57.720 when we were first doing it, it was all sex, 2:08:57.800 --> 2:08:59.520 drugs and rock and roll. Yeah, you know, it was 2:08:59.560 --> 2:09:04.720 like I'm snorting whiskey and drinking cocaine. Think I'm going 2:09:04.800 --> 2:09:06.640 to go in saying, you know, that's what rock and 2:09:06.720 --> 2:09:09.400 roll was when we first got into it, and and 2:09:09.440 --> 2:09:13.360 we would already missed you know, we already missed all 2:09:13.360 --> 2:09:17.280 the artists that were like you know, like even you know, 2:09:17.480 --> 2:09:21.200 like uh one, two three, what are we fighting for? 2:09:21.320 --> 2:09:23.960 You know, even stuff like that was gone after the 2:09:24.480 --> 2:09:28.360 after the government, you know, like shut down all the protests. 2:09:28.800 --> 2:09:33.720 It's like things got really strange after nineteen seventy one, 2:09:33.800 --> 2:09:38.120 and and music pop, you know, rock and roll music 2:09:38.160 --> 2:09:41.840 went two directions that went into like corporate rock. You know, 2:09:41.880 --> 2:09:45.440 it was like bands that were named after countries and 2:09:45.560 --> 2:09:49.320 cities and stuff that, and it was like white guys 2:09:49.360 --> 2:09:57.720 that were massogynistic, took too many drugs, were conspicuous consumers 2:09:57.800 --> 2:10:00.920 and proud of it, you know, and and the other 2:10:01.720 --> 2:10:05.880 the other uh direction, music went at that time was 2:10:05.880 --> 2:10:09.880 was disco and it was like Jerry said, once, I 2:10:09.880 --> 2:10:12.440 thought it was really funny. He said, disco. To me, 2:10:12.600 --> 2:10:14.880 it's kind We loved all the sounds in disco because 2:10:14.880 --> 2:10:16.880 they use these great synth sounds and it was like 2:10:17.120 --> 2:10:19.880 amazing sounds. And he said, yeah, but it's like a 2:10:19.920 --> 2:10:24.400 pretty woman with no brain. That was his take in disco, 2:10:24.400 --> 2:10:27.120 and I thought that was really good. And then then then, 2:10:27.240 --> 2:10:29.440 you know, then the punk things started up, and I 2:10:29.560 --> 2:10:32.680 was really interested in that because it was it was 2:10:32.720 --> 2:10:36.400 rebellion again. But then it was nihilistic and it was 2:10:36.480 --> 2:10:39.120 just you know, they just all fell apart, you know, 2:10:39.200 --> 2:10:42.440 and they all self destructed. And we thought, well, that's 2:10:42.520 --> 2:10:44.960 not what we are. You know. We just really thought 2:10:44.960 --> 2:10:50.880 we weren't any of those three things. And that's that's 2:10:50.880 --> 2:10:54.520 how we hit on on the evolution. You know. There 2:10:54.600 --> 2:10:58.480 was a movie from the fifties called Inherit the Wind, 2:10:59.360 --> 2:11:01.200 and it's the person first place I ever saw the 2:11:01.200 --> 2:11:05.400 word divo, and it was because there was you know, 2:11:05.440 --> 2:11:08.800 it was for the Scopes monkey trial. The movie was 2:11:08.840 --> 2:11:12.120 about it, and and there was like a it turned 2:11:12.120 --> 2:11:16.560 into a carnival outside of the courthouse where you know, 2:11:16.600 --> 2:11:19.720 people were in this little town were like selling whatever 2:11:19.760 --> 2:11:22.680 they could, hawking their wares. And this one guy that 2:11:22.880 --> 2:11:26.040 was like a circus barker, he's going he had a 2:11:26.320 --> 2:11:30.320 he had a chimpanzee smoking a cigarette sitting on a 2:11:30.400 --> 2:11:33.120 on on the table next to him, and behind him 2:11:33.160 --> 2:11:40.760 it said the de Evolution Man. And at one point 2:11:41.040 --> 2:11:44.400 he's like going, e people, do you believe that this 2:11:44.480 --> 2:11:47.680 is your uncle up here? Do you believe you're related to. 2:11:47.640 --> 2:11:51.040 This this guy sitting on the table here, And he's 2:11:51.080 --> 2:11:53.760 like making fun of de evolution. But but like at 2:11:53.760 --> 2:11:57.520 one point there's a shot where the monkey's sitting there 2:11:57.560 --> 2:12:00.360 smoking the cigarette, and on one side of him you 2:12:00.400 --> 2:12:03.240 see the beginning of the evolution and you only see 2:12:03.320 --> 2:12:06.760 Devo and it says Divo and on the other side 2:12:06.760 --> 2:12:10.320 it says man. For about twenty seconds in the film, 2:12:10.560 --> 2:12:12.800 and that's the first place we ever saw the word. 2:12:13.240 --> 2:12:16.920 We love that. We love the idea of the chimpanzee 2:12:16.920 --> 2:12:18.000 being the Devo man. 2:12:20.280 --> 2:12:25.600 Well Mark, we bookended the career of Divo. We'll have 2:12:25.680 --> 2:12:28.920 to do another time about the records and making and 2:12:29.000 --> 2:12:31.240 meeting Eno, but I think we're going to stop here. 2:12:31.960 --> 2:12:36.200 This is very insightful, very stimulating. I want to thank 2:12:36.280 --> 2:12:38.240 you for taking this time with my audience. 2:12:39.320 --> 2:12:42.840 Thanks, Bob. You know I'm kind of inarticulate and a 2:12:42.880 --> 2:12:45.000 lot of you know, to be quite honest with you, 2:12:45.200 --> 2:12:50.280 I'm like, I like think things and I best express 2:12:50.360 --> 2:12:55.280 them through music and art and not words. So I 2:12:55.320 --> 2:12:57.360 hope it wasn't too tortuous for you. 2:12:58.000 --> 2:13:01.720 I don't think that's inaccurate. First of all, a couple 2:13:01.720 --> 2:13:04.160 of questions I asked, I saw you thinking about it. 2:13:04.560 --> 2:13:06.560 A lot of people have been interviewed so many times 2:13:06.640 --> 2:13:10.360 they just have their knee jerk answer. The other thing is, 2:13:11.320 --> 2:13:14.440 I used to have this theory that there were waves 2:13:14.520 --> 2:13:18.520 that came in and in the fifties and early sixties 2:13:18.520 --> 2:13:21.760 it was a beatnix. The wave would go out and 2:13:21.840 --> 2:13:28.200 certain people would be left on shore. Okay, you still 2:13:28.320 --> 2:13:32.200 have the values of the seventies. What I mean by 2:13:32.200 --> 2:13:35.040 that is the perspective which started in the sixties, and 2:13:35.080 --> 2:13:37.680 you're true to that when almost I can't think of 2:13:37.800 --> 2:13:45.280 anybody else who is so A that's stimulating, and B 2:13:46.400 --> 2:13:49.320 it's like, yeah, you got the ideas out. Once you 2:13:49.360 --> 2:13:51.680 get into your groove and you're starting, I can listen forever. 2:13:52.240 --> 2:13:54.360 I'm only cutting it off for now, I say, you know, 2:13:55.280 --> 2:13:57.480 as I say, there's a lot of other questions I 2:13:57.560 --> 2:13:59.720 had if you and me were like, these are some 2:13:59.720 --> 2:14:03.200 of these just basic? Well what really something would really 2:14:03.320 --> 2:14:06.240 happen with the draft. I'm sure ultimately if you went 2:14:06.280 --> 2:14:08.680 for a physically ye had the eye thing whatever. But 2:14:08.920 --> 2:14:12.920 you know, digression is a spice of life, and your 2:14:13.000 --> 2:14:16.280 digressions were great, So I don't think you were being 2:14:16.600 --> 2:14:20.800 fake self deprecating and you really think you're not that articulate, 2:14:20.880 --> 2:14:24.120 But once you find your groove, it's pretty good and 2:14:24.160 --> 2:14:26.520 it's a lot more meaningful and rich than it is 2:14:26.560 --> 2:14:27.720 from the average person. 2:14:28.840 --> 2:14:31.760 Well, maybe we'll get a chance to talk about beating 2:14:31.800 --> 2:14:36.200 next sometime. I'm I think DEVO has a strong relationship there. 2:14:37.160 --> 2:14:38.680 But that's another story. 2:14:38.440 --> 2:14:42.520 That opens the door to like twenty five minutes right there, 2:14:43.120 --> 2:14:46.320 beating it, culture, et cetera. But we're going to end 2:14:46.320 --> 2:14:49.960 it here for today till next time. This is Bob 2:14:50.120 --> 2:14:50.680 left six