1
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,480
Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

2
00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,680
Speaker 1: My guest today is the one and only Mark mothers Boy.

3
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,520
Speaker 1: You know him from Devo, you know him from soundtracks. Mark.

4
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: Great to have you on the podcast.

5
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:24,959
Speaker 2: Wonderful to be here, Bob.

6
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 1: Let's start with this documentary. How did this come to happen?

7
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:30,040
Speaker 1: The one on Netflix?

8
00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,920
Speaker 2: Well, it was kind of a long process actually, to

9
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,199
Speaker 2: be honest with you. Started quite a few years ago

10
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,360
Speaker 2: and didn't start off as a documentary.

11
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:40,120
Speaker 1: At first.

12
00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 2: I thought I was just doing I was going to

13
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:48,960
Speaker 2: archive some recordings of shows like the very first Devo

14
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,280
Speaker 2: show where we were sextet Devo, and then and then

15
00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,400
Speaker 2: a year later another show, and I just wanted to

16
00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 2: put those on and I was doing an archival film

17
00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,840
Speaker 2: and it turned into it to a documentary. It went

18
00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,120
Speaker 2: through a number of different people and then it worked

19
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,959
Speaker 2: its way over to our our man, who took over

20
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,759
Speaker 2: and made it what it is.

21
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,039
Speaker 1: So why did you not do it yourself? Why did

22
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:18,080
Speaker 1: you bring in a director?

23
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 2: You know it there would have been within within the band,

24
00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,039
Speaker 2: there would have been half a dozen within the band,

25
00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:30,720
Speaker 2: and the people that worked with Devo, there would have

26
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,520
Speaker 2: been at least a half a dozen totally different documentaries.

27
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 2: So the idea of having somebody outside of us, kind

28
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:44,800
Speaker 2: of having an independent observation of everything, and and and uh,

29
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,680
Speaker 2: I'll look at it seemed like a desirable way to go.

30
00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,560
Speaker 1: Okay, so the guy puts it together. You still have

31
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 1: six different opinions, right.

32
00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you still have all the opinions, but it's

33
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 2: like it's not any one of them taking over because

34
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 2: we could still end up with Yeah, yeah, you know,

35
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,600
Speaker 2: we could still end up with a half dozen more

36
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 2: documentaries if we could talk each other into doing it.

37
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 1: So are you happy with the final product? Yeah?

38
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, relieved. You know, it's it's like, I think all

39
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,680
Speaker 2: the most important points were hit upon, and I think

40
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,880
Speaker 2: it it's I think it came out really well in

41
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,600
Speaker 2: the way that I think it would have. People that

42
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 2: don't know anything about Devo might might find it interesting

43
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 2: and and it might make them curious to learn more

44
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:43,960
Speaker 2: about the band.

45
00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,239
Speaker 1: So since it's been out, have you felt any difference?

46
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,080
Speaker 1: Have you felt, you know, more acceptance of growing audience

47
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,640
Speaker 1: or we live in this modern world. You put it

48
00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,799
Speaker 1: out there and who the hell knows?

49
00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a combination of things have been

50
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,160
Speaker 2: happening this year. We've been playing a lot of shows,

51
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 2: and we were touring with B fifty two's actually, and

52
00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 2: I think, I think just what I've noticed is that

53
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,920
Speaker 2: kids seem to be they have a lot more information

54
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,960
Speaker 2: than I did when I was a kid. You know.

55
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,079
Speaker 2: It's it's like I would go to a record store

56
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,200
Speaker 2: and i would go past the Elvis Presley and the

57
00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 2: Frank Sinatra stand up cutouts, and I'd work my way

58
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,040
Speaker 2: back to the rock section, and then I'd go to

59
00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,240
Speaker 2: a cardboard box that said other stuff, and then I'd

60
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,800
Speaker 2: go in there and I'd find capt'n beef Heart and

61
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,960
Speaker 2: Wildman Fisher and things like that. And now kids on

62
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 2: their cell phone, they have so much power and they

63
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,760
Speaker 2: have the ability to find out so many things so

64
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 2: instantaneously and easy. It's it's it's impressive. It's it's like

65
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 2: we've been playing shows this year. I'm probably the documentary

66
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 2: had a lot to do with it. We've been playing

67
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,360
Speaker 2: shows where instead of just being a bunch of people

68
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 2: my age that were slightly younger that were at the

69
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 2: shows in the past, there was like a lot of

70
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,720
Speaker 2: kids there, there's been a lot of kids at our

71
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:23,360
Speaker 2: show and surprisingly they're singing along. So it's like, you know,

72
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,000
Speaker 2: leave it to the Internet to help out on some things.

73
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 1: Okay, if you talk the very late sixties early seventies,

74
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 1: Captain Beefheart starts with Safe as Milk goes on make

75
00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,760
Speaker 1: records with Zappa, while men Fisher, you're living in Ohio

76
00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,040
Speaker 1: FM underground rock in Ohio, the snart to start as

77
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,400
Speaker 1: early as it does in La and San Francisco. Rolling

78
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,800
Speaker 1: Stone comes out in sixty seven, but it's not necessarily available.

79
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 1: How did you know about those records?

80
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 2: Well, see, that's what I'm saying. It was like a

81
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,479
Speaker 2: lot harder back then. You know, you had to you know,

82
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 2: it was like craw Daddy if you saw the rare

83
00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,800
Speaker 2: copy of a craw Daddy and then finally you know,

84
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 2: like a rolling Stone coming along. But but you know,

85
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 2: it really had to do with radio. Also, DJs were

86
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:25,320
Speaker 2: very important back then because DJs, as you probably remember

87
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,160
Speaker 2: on FM in particular, they were given a lot of freedom.

88
00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,440
Speaker 2: And you know, i'd be I'd go I'd hear something

89
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,080
Speaker 2: on the radio where a DJ would say, Okay, tomorrow,

90
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to play you. There's a band called led Zeppelin,

91
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 2: and I'm going to play their whole album NonStop with

92
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,919
Speaker 2: no commercials at eight o'clock tomorrow night, and you'd listen

93
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 2: to the whole album and you'd hear this productions level

94
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 2: that had never been reached before. And you know you

95
00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,839
Speaker 2: had to depend upon them, you know, you depended upon DJs.

96
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,200
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You grow up

97
00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,360
Speaker 1: in Ohio. You spent a lot of time in California.

98
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,680
Speaker 1: Needless say, the Internet and cable television has levined the

99
00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,599
Speaker 1: playing field. What was it like growing up in Ohio

100
00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,080
Speaker 1: in the fifties and sixties.

101
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a cultural wasteland. We were in an

102
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,440
Speaker 2: industrial city Akron. It was you know, gray and overcast,

103
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:35,440
Speaker 2: and everything in the city centered around making tires to

104
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,280
Speaker 2: they'd put them on trains and send them up to

105
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 2: Detroit for the cars back in those days, and and

106
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,919
Speaker 2: and so like, the whole city just was centered around

107
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:53,400
Speaker 2: this one industry. And you know, there were you know,

108
00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 2: one of the things that were good about being an

109
00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:03,159
Speaker 2: Akron is that we were insulated, and we were in

110
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,559
Speaker 2: a you know, we were in a basement, an actor

111
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:12,560
Speaker 2: and writing music together to entertain ourselves. And and you know,

112
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 2: like if you were a band in New York at

113
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,880
Speaker 2: the same time in the the mid or late seventies. Uh,

114
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,440
Speaker 2: you know, you'd you'd go, Okay, I saw the drummer

115
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,280
Speaker 2: left Talking Heads, and now he's playing with Blondie or whatever.

116
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,360
Speaker 2: You know, you'd watch these bands develop. And by being

117
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,120
Speaker 2: an acron that whole length of time, we had a

118
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:38,239
Speaker 2: chance to marinate and to to kind of fully form

119
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,160
Speaker 2: before we ended up, you know, driving to New York

120
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,600
Speaker 2: and and uh performing.

121
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,960
Speaker 1: So how did your family end up the acra? Oh?

122
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 2: It was they were blue collar, my both sides of

123
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 2: my family. They and they came out of coal mining towns,

124
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,600
Speaker 2: one from Pennsylvania and one from West Virginia. And during

125
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 2: the depression, they just needed to be able to get

126
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,360
Speaker 2: food for the kids. And so because coal mines weren't

127
00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,680
Speaker 2: doing anything, so they they all ended up in So

128
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,480
Speaker 2: both families ended up in in Akron working for the

129
00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:25,080
Speaker 2: rubber industry, working at Firestone and Goodyear, and I was

130
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 2: living in I was you know, I was around those

131
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 2: kind of that kind of lifestyle.

132
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 1: Then, you know, well, how many generations are your family

133
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,520
Speaker 1: in America.

134
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,680
Speaker 2: My grandfather on my mother's side was born in Switzerland,

135
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:49,320
Speaker 2: and my great grandfather on my other side was born

136
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,480
Speaker 2: in Germany. I'm pretty sure.

137
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,560
Speaker 1: So you've grown up in the fifties, you're going to school.

138
00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,000
Speaker 1: What kind of kid are you?

139
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:08,560
Speaker 2: I was kind of out of place when I When

140
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,960
Speaker 2: I first started school, there were five kids in our family,

141
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,599
Speaker 2: and I'd walk to this elementary school and I remember

142
00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:21,240
Speaker 2: in second grade my teacher saying, Okay, Mark, add up

143
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,520
Speaker 2: the numbers on the board, and I go, what's a board?

144
00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,720
Speaker 2: And every all the other kids would be laughing and

145
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,880
Speaker 2: that she'd go, all right, smart guy, go sit in

146
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 2: the corner. And I'd be like, how do the other

147
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,760
Speaker 2: kids know the right answer to that? And then at

148
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,560
Speaker 2: the end of my second year of school, I was

149
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,480
Speaker 2: just turned eight, I think, and and it was almost

150
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 2: second grade was almost over. She was, she said to

151
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,640
Speaker 2: my parents. She saw me trying to read a book

152
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,880
Speaker 2: from about six inches away, and she asked my parents

153
00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 2: if they ever had my eyes checked, and they said no,

154
00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,319
Speaker 2: and they found out I was legally blind. And I

155
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,320
Speaker 2: remember a day where I went came out of an

156
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,559
Speaker 2: optometrist office and I looked around me and I saw

157
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,920
Speaker 2: clouds and I saw birds, and I saw the sun

158
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,160
Speaker 2: for the first time of my life. I'd never seen

159
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,760
Speaker 2: telephone wires. I'd never seen the roof of a house

160
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,360
Speaker 2: except in pictures and books, and it was astounding. I

161
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 2: saw trees, and I recognized them from books because I

162
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,079
Speaker 2: had only ever seen them in books or in photos.

163
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 2: I'd never seen them in real life. And it was

164
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,600
Speaker 2: like this amazing experience. And it was my very last

165
00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 2: week of second grade, and my teacher was standing behind me,

166
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,680
Speaker 2: and I was drawing a tree because I was so

167
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,200
Speaker 2: excited about having seen them for the first time, and

168
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,200
Speaker 2: she said, you draw trees better than me, And it

169
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 2: was the first nice thing that that teacher had ever

170
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,240
Speaker 2: said to me. She'd, you know, corporal punishment was like

171
00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 2: accepted back in those days, so she'd paddled me a

172
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,840
Speaker 2: number of times in front of the other students and

173
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 2: things for being a smart ass. But I just I

174
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,640
Speaker 2: was legally blind, and and I getting glasses was this

175
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 2: amazing thing, but it affected the trajectory of my life

176
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:20,319
Speaker 2: through school. I was the littlest kid in my class,

177
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 2: and I had a big head and a tiny body,

178
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,960
Speaker 2: and I had glasses that looked like pop bottles, you know,

179
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,640
Speaker 2: on the bottom the lenses were like pop bottles glasses,

180
00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:39,840
Speaker 2: So it was like a cartoon character. And I don't know.

181
00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,720
Speaker 2: I pretty much fought with everybody between you know, first

182
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,760
Speaker 2: grade and twelfth grade, and.

183
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 1: Okay, there are five kids in your family, how many girls?

184
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 1: How many boys? Were you in the hierarchy.

185
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 2: I was the first one to hit the ground. And

186
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 2: then my brother Bob, who played guitar with Devo to

187
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,400
Speaker 2: this day, was was second. My brother Jim, who was

188
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 2: our first drummer and really had a lot to do

189
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,120
Speaker 2: with affecting the esthetic of what Devo is and was

190
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,760
Speaker 2: because I was looking for sounds even back then in

191
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,880
Speaker 2: the seventies, I was looking for sounds that related to

192
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,120
Speaker 2: what was going on and in the world. And he

193
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:31,160
Speaker 2: was he was He had kind of an electronic acumen.

194
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,319
Speaker 2: And then it was my sister Sue, who as soon

195
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,959
Speaker 2: as she got out of school, she was like, I'm

196
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,920
Speaker 2: getting out of here and she went to UH, I

197
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:45,720
Speaker 2: think Arizona to become a uh she a park ranger,

198
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,600
Speaker 2: and she just she was she she really loved nature

199
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,160
Speaker 2: and UH and went there. And then my youngest sister

200
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 2: stayed in Ohio and she's an artist and we talk

201
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:05,840
Speaker 2: at at different times. I see Bob almost daily. And

202
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,120
Speaker 2: then everybody else I see less often because they're in

203
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,440
Speaker 2: different parts of the country.

204
00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:17,320
Speaker 1: Okay, so once you got glasses that you could see,

205
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:19,880
Speaker 1: did you do better in school?

206
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, to a certain extent because I could read

207
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,520
Speaker 2: things and I could I could read the board. I

208
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 2: knew what a board was after that. But yeah, I

209
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:41,040
Speaker 2: just yeah, I still I still struggled with with my

210
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,320
Speaker 2: vision because I had to correct it so that it

211
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 2: was twenty twenty. It also warped it into being a

212
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,680
Speaker 2: fish eye lens. So every day I could see things,

213
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 2: and but they were all like like I was looking

214
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,079
Speaker 2: through a fish eye ends for quite a few years,

215
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,959
Speaker 2: even up until I got cataract surgery about six or

216
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 2: seven years ago. And so school was yeah, school was

217
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:20,760
Speaker 2: something that that I was confused about and and you know,

218
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,840
Speaker 2: but I did love art and I loved drawing, and

219
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 2: I really became obsessed with that, and it was kind

220
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 2: of like my main love in life until I saw

221
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 2: the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and then I was certain

222
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,000
Speaker 2: I was going to be in a band. I was

223
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:46,840
Speaker 2: absolutely certain. Like I guess, was it sixty four? Yeah, yeah,

224
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 2: So if it was before May, I was thirteen. If

225
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,880
Speaker 2: it was after May, I was fourteen, and from then

226
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,400
Speaker 2: on I was sure I was going to be in

227
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,280
Speaker 2: a band for the up until I got in a band.

228
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's just go back do a little clean

229
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,480
Speaker 1: up work. Usually the oldest kid all the families hopes

230
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 1: and dreams, and the pressure is I'm the oldest kid.

231
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 1: Is that an accurate description in your case? I think.

232
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 2: I think it was slightly different with me because they

233
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 2: were also guilty that they that I was eight years

234
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 2: old and they'd never tested my eyes and found out

235
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,800
Speaker 2: that it was a miracle that I was able to

236
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 2: walk to school and cross the street and not get

237
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,000
Speaker 2: hit by a car for two years. Uh So, so

238
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,720
Speaker 2: there was some of that, yeah, But but I also

239
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,680
Speaker 2: had stuff like my mom said, you know, when you

240
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 2: were a barn, your head was so large, we were

241
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:54,320
Speaker 2: concerned that maybe you were a hydrocephalic child, and you know,

242
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 2: so I had all those kind of of things to

243
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,760
Speaker 2: deal with, and then i'd probably my brothers and sisters

244
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,120
Speaker 2: were all smarter than me, if you want to, you know,

245
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 2: I'm a If we all would have taken a test

246
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 2: at the same time, they probably would have all scored

247
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 2: higher than me.

248
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: I just.

249
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,520
Speaker 2: They you know, my dad was kind of like this

250
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,760
Speaker 2: very optimistic all America, you know, American guy that believed

251
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 2: in the American dream. And he was like, anybody can

252
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,000
Speaker 2: be whatever they want to be in this world. You know,

253
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 2: we were in America. You can do what you want

254
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 2: to do. And you know, he was very he was optimistic,

255
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,720
Speaker 2: like Tim Leary who was a friend of mine out here,

256
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,400
Speaker 2: and and they were they were maybe my the two

257
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 2: most optimistic people I knew. And and so when I

258
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 2: said I wanted to be a musician, he was like, well, okay,

259
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,760
Speaker 2: you know he's thinking, he's thinking, does that mean you'll

260
00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 2: be living in the apartment above the Roger? You know,

261
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 2: what does that? What does that mean if you're in

262
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 2: a band. But they were they were supportive of it.

263
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,679
Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to school because of your vision, you

264
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 1: play any sports, you have any friends.

265
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,919
Speaker 2: Uh you know, I kind of I made friends with

266
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 2: a couple of the other kind of uh odd odd

267
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 2: characters there was. There was a guy named Ted who

268
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,320
Speaker 2: who was a blue baby, and so he was the

269
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,240
Speaker 2: only kid that my size. I was really small. I

270
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 2: think I was like eighty some pounds when I graduated

271
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 2: from high school. The only sport I ever got involved in.

272
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 2: Uh was wrestling because baseball, football, basketball. I was not

273
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,360
Speaker 2: of the size and shape that I could have participated

274
00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 2: in it anyhow. But also my vision and you know,

275
00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 2: it's like when you if you imagine, you know, you're

276
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,800
Speaker 2: looking into a doorknob and somebody throws up a football

277
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,399
Speaker 2: at you throw fifty feet away and it starts off tiny,

278
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 2: it gets big and then it gets gigantic? Is it

279
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 2: is it when it's about two feet away from you?

280
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 2: So it was the whole thing with the with the

281
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:26,119
Speaker 2: fish islands? I where was made sports? Kind of like

282
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,639
Speaker 2: something that I never became participant in really?

283
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,159
Speaker 1: So was this public school or parochial school?

284
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 2: Public school?

285
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,520
Speaker 1: Okay, so you go to high school? Are you so

286
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,399
Speaker 1: far off the radar screen? No one even knows you're there?

287
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 1: We are they saying, oh, that's that weird guy, or

288
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,960
Speaker 1: that's the yard guy, or people pick on you. Where

289
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,359
Speaker 1: were you in the hierarchy in high school? Uh?

290
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,120
Speaker 2: Pretty far down at the bottom. I was like, uh,

291
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 2: I was the Uh you know when I got to

292
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 2: high schoo we had just moved into the suburbs. Well

293
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 2: not even really this it's kind of more like a

294
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 2: rural area just outside of the city limits, and my

295
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 2: dad bought this place. It was like a green acres farm,

296
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 2: you know, tiny. It was like five acres or five

297
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 2: and a half acres, but had a little stable, just

298
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 2: big enough to hold a couple of horses, and had

299
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 2: an orchard, and he grew some stuff there because he

300
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 2: kind of had a romantic notion about farming and farms

301
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 2: and getting out of the city. So I went to

302
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 2: a whole new school system for high school, and it

303
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 2: just started off wrong. I said something to somebody and

304
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 2: they punched me, and then I became the kick me guy,

305
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 2: the guy with the sign okay.

306
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 1: Prior to the Beatles, was there music in the home?

307
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 1: Did your parents play records? Did anybody play instruments? Take

308
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: any piano lessons? Any of that?

309
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, For about five years before I saw the Beatles.

310
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 2: After I had gotten my glasses, I started taking keyboard lessons.

311
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 2: My parents wanted me to be the church organist someday.

312
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 2: They were hoping that, and I just thought music was

313
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: something invented to torture me. I really didn't like it

314
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 2: at all, didn't care for it. And missus Fox would

315
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 2: come over once a week for two dollars. She would

316
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 2: give me a keyboard lesson and she sang along while

317
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 2: I played, And so my family would all be in

318
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,400
Speaker 2: the next room. I'd be in I think we had

319
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,399
Speaker 2: this little small Hammond organ in the dining room. And

320
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 2: then right now I was right between the kitchen and

321
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 2: the living room, and I remember trying to get my parents.

322
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 2: They'd all be sitting there trying to watch the TV

323
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: in the next room, and Missus Fox would be singing

324
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 2: while I played, and she sang really out of tune.

325
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 2: It was great, And so I'd played really slow and

326
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 2: loud on purpose, so she'd even sing louder, and she'd

327
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 2: be like the falling le drift by my win. It was.

328
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 2: It was awesome. I would I'd be watching in the

329
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 2: other room and they'd all be huddling closer to the TV,

330
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: and I was hoping that they would say you're done,

331
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 2: But instead the Beatles came along and it and I went,

332
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 2: That's why I've spent my whole life being tortured learning

333
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 2: how to play music. And so I entered a new,

334
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 2: a new direction.

335
00:21:54,760 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: Then, Okay, were you listening to the radio? Will you

336
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: muse it fluid or is just your saw? The Beatles

337
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 1: in Ed Sullivan and you go, holy fuck.

338
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: Well, the radio that was being played in my house

339
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 2: was AM Whacker Radio, and they played country music, which

340
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 2: I wasn't interested in. They did play novelty songs, so

341
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: every now and then I'd get interested in something like

342
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 2: it's a bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini. I

343
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 2: think that's the first forty five I ever bought. And

344
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 2: then Purple people Eater and stuff like that I was

345
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: interested in. But my dad, in World War Two, he

346
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 2: was a radio tech mission and he came back to

347
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 2: the house and he kept a little workshop down in

348
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 2: the basement and he built stereo amplifiers and electronic things.

349
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: He built drones. Believe it or not, he built drones

350
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 2: and we'd take them out on the weekend and fly

351
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: them and crash them and lose them. But he built

352
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 2: h stereo and I remember he bought these stereophonic albums.

353
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: I think it was either Capital or RCA that put

354
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 2: them out back in the day, and they'd had a

355
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: hypodermic needle on the front of them because they were

356
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: extra pumped up high fidelity and they were stereo, and

357
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: they were actually kind of some of them were binaural.

358
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: You know, binural was really popular when stereo first came

359
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 2: out because it really separated, you know, like you could

360
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: have a voice on one side of the room and

361
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 2: the drums on the other side, and and people use

362
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: that a lot. I still listen back to, like, like,

363
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 2: if you ever listened to the Revolver album. On the

364
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: original recording of it, they used a lot of binural recordings,

365
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: so so like paperback Writer, you can hear somebody going

366
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 2: while they're up to it. You hear him going pay

367
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: paper paperback, right, it's so awesome if you ever listened

368
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: to Revolver, But don't do the remixes or the re

369
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: releases because they corrected the binaural stereo, so don't listen

370
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: to that. But my dad would play. He'd set us

371
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 2: on one side of the living room, all the kids,

372
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 2: and then he'd put the speakers for the stereo on

373
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: the far end of each corner of the room, and

374
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 2: we'd listen to a train chugging going through the room,

375
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 2: starting on one side, going to the other side of

376
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: the room. And he loved all that stuff.

377
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: Okay, you see the beales Sunday Night, February sixty four.

378
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 1: You instantly say that's my gig. What action do you take?

379
00:24:52,760 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 2: Well, I looked around for people that were playing instruments,

380
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 2: and there was an accordion shop in Akron where they

381
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 2: were you could also buy guitars like they had Italian

382
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 2: Galante guitars there, and so so kids came in and

383
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: they got a guitar and they took guitar lessons and

384
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: there was nothing I could do at first. It took

385
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: about a year of me persistently pestering my dad for

386
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 2: him to buy me the most inexpensive bottom of the

387
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: line for FISA organ but which was a couple hundred

388
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: bucks back in those days. But we finally got one,

389
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 2: and that's when I went out looking for people to

390
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: be in a band with, and so it started off.

391
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 2: I got in a band with these guys that were

392
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 2: taking guitar lessons at this accordion shop, and that was

393
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: the first band I was in. I forget what we

394
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: called it. We might have called it Purple Haze, I

395
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: don't know for sure, or the Shags or something. We

396
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: just took a name that we heard already somewhere. I

397
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: didn't even have anything to do with that.

398
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: Okay, for those of us who lived through the era.

399
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: We picked up instruments, we got together with other people,

400
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: We played in the living room. Then there was always

401
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: somebody who said we have to get gigs. Okay, So

402
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: did your bands ever play outside the living room, the garage,

403
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: basement wherever you're rehearsing rarely?

404
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 2: I remember we played on Front Street in Cargo Paul's,

405
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 2: which was like a community right next to Akron for

406
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 2: there are one hundred and fiftieth anniversary or something, and

407
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: they had a little like foot and a half high

408
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: trailer that we all stood on and are. Our concept was, Okay,

409
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: here's what our outfit's going to be, because you know,

410
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: we couldn't afford like a to go buy suits like

411
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: the or somebody, all those English bands, so our our

412
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: our concept was we'd untuck our shirts. That was and

413
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 2: I remember it because our bass player, halfway through the

414
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: set of his parents showed up and he stopped playing

415
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: bass in the song to tuck his shirt back in

416
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 2: and then start playing it. Ah, you went disappointed, but

417
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: that was so we did. There were very few places

418
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: to play an Akron for for a band that was

419
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 2: as much of a novus as us at first.

420
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: See graduated from high school.

421
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 2: Then what I'm graduated and by some miracle, uh you know,

422
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: I mean my family nobody had ever talked about going

423
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: to college. I had never thought about it. I never

424
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 2: thought that was like something I would get to do.

425
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 2: But I had an art teacher that took pity on

426
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: me in high school, and she'd put my artwork in

427
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: various local you know, like community art shows, and I'd

428
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: won first praise a couple times for pen and ink

429
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: artworks I'd done. And so there was a program at

430
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 2: Kent State back in the late sixties where if there

431
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 2: were kids that were had some modicum of talent in

432
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: some particular area, but they were like probably not going

433
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: to go to college, they had a program where they

434
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: could give you a fifty percent discount. And she signed

435
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: me up for that and didn't even tell me, and

436
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: I got it. I got to I got a certificate

437
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: them Kent and they put me on this fifty percent

438
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: and I could so I could get a job at

439
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: night and then during the day I went to school.

440
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: And that was night and day different to go to college.

441
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: First off, I was not like one in a class

442
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: of ninety three kids that were that like all knew

443
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: me as the weirdo I was, you know, at a

444
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: school with like fifteen thousand kids or something at the time,

445
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: and I loved it. I loved it. I could and

446
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: I was. I was, you know, there as an art student,

447
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 2: and I didn't know what that even meant, to be

448
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: honest with you, I wasn't sure what I was taking

449
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: or why. I just was. I knew I was. I

450
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: knew it meant I didn't have to go to Vietnam,

451
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: and that that made me happy because I remember thinking

452
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: about Vietnam and watching it on TV and going there's

453
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: not a single Asian person I would ever want to shoot,

454
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: you know, especially if it's just because they have a

455
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: government I don't like, you know, It's like I couldn't

456
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: imagine doing that. And so going to Kent was a salvation.

457
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,479
Speaker 2: But I liked school for the first time. I loved school.

458
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: And I found out about something called printmaking, and that was,

459
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: you know, long before computers. You know, it was like

460
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 2: super high tech, this thing where you could like have

461
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: an idea for a piece of art and draw it

462
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: and then put it on screens and then print it

463
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: and do multiple copies of it. And I was really

464
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: fascinated with that. I loved printmaking, and so early on

465
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: I found out that that like at three point thirty

466
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: when the school bell rang, all the other kids would

467
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: run off to their sorority houses and fraternity houses or

468
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: wherever they lived, and they'd go to the bars or whatever,

469
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: and they'd be done for the day. And that to

470
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: me just span that the art department was totally empty,

471
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: and I could go into the printmaking department and I

472
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: could burn a screen print a color. By the time

473
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: I cleaned the screen and burned another screen, the first

474
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: color was dry, I could print another color, and I

475
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: could by three in the morning, I could have a

476
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,239
Speaker 2: finished piece of art. I didn't have to queue up

477
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: every day and spend two weeks to do one piece

478
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: of art. I could do a piece of art every

479
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: single day. And so I got into doing this artwork

480
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: at night at Kent, and I did things in a

481
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: smaller size because of my vision. The fish eye lens

482
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: made it so it was really hard to do to

483
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: hold on to perspective, like when I was drawing if

484
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: it was a big piece of art, whereas if I

485
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: did something smaller and card size, I could hold the

486
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: perspective you know, with with my with my glasses, and

487
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: so I was printing these small things and I was

488
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: in the decals. I don't know, maybe some making uh,

489
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: plastic models. When I was a kid, I liked putting

490
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: the taking the decals and putting them on the planes

491
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: and the cars and the stuff. And and there was

492
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: a someone who kind of saved my life in my

493
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: high school days was a guy named Guilardi. He was

494
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: a TV personality who was on He was a weather

495
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: man during the day at w e ws UH in Cleveland,

496
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: but at night he had a TV show and he

497
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: wore like a fright wig, and he had a pair

498
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: of sunglasses with one lens, and he had a mustache

499
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: and a goat tea, and he looked like a beatnick,

500
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: and he talked like a beatnik, and he made up

501
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: his own terminology, like he'd say things like cool with

502
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: the boom booms and purple caniff and he had all

503
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: these phrases that he made up that if you were

504
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: like a kid that didn't have a you know, a

505
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: driver's license, because you're fourteen or fifteen and you're sitting

506
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: at home by yourself on a winter day, you just

507
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: turn him on and he played old B movies, C movies,

508
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: and D movies. He played like the most funky, mostly

509
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: black and white films. They probably were all black and white,

510
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 2: I think. I don't think we had a color TV.

511
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: And and he would sit on a stool in front

512
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: of a blue screen. And he must have got this

513
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: from being a weather man, because he would do this

514
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: thing where like halfway through like fifty Million Years BC

515
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: or a movie like that, Gulardi would like jump onto

516
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: the blue screen and he'd be in the movie with

517
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: caveman that we're trying to pick, yeah, caveman trying to

518
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: pick fruit off of a tree, or they be running

519
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: from a lizard that had a horn glute on its head,

520
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: you know that was giant and chasing them, and he'd

521
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: be running with them and he'd fall over right as

522
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: the lizard got there, and stuff like that. And to me,

523
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: that was like, how's he how's he allowed to do that?

524
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 2: He's he's breaking the rules, he's busting through a wall.

525
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: The fact that he was like that, he was like

526
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: you know, like interacting and making fun of Hollywood movies

527
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: blew my mind. And I just thought he was the

528
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: coolest person that ever existed. And even up until I

529
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: met him for one brief second. They in high school,

530
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: they did this thing that I would never have gone to,

531
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: but it was called donkey basketball, where for charity, the

532
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: TV station would send people from the TV you know,

533
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 2: the newsman, the weather cast or blah blah blah. They'd

534
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: all come down and they'd dride donkeys in your in

535
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 2: your basketball court. And so so the teachers in your

536
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: school would do the same thing, and they'd try to

537
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: play basketball on donkeys, which was really stupid. But the

538
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: good part about it was that Gulardi came to my

539
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: high school, the place I really dreaded to ever go,

540
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: and he ever. I hated that high school. But I

541
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: remember after the after the game, I was walking down

542
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: the hallway to go to where my locker was and

543
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: and get my jacket out, and I'm I'm the only

544
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: one in the hallway, and then this guy comes out

545
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: of the the men's locker room, the dressing room for

546
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 2: you know, that's attached to the gym, and I go, oh,

547
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: my god, that's Gulardi. And he's walking towards me, and

548
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: he's lit a cigarette and he's smoking it in the

549
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 2: high school and I'm walking that way, and he's walking

550
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 2: towards me and we get like about six feet away

551
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: and I go Gulardi and he goes fuck you. And

552
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: I remember I was like it was like I had

553
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: goosebumps all over me. I went Glardi talk to me.

554
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 2: I was like totally flipped out. I was like, Glardy

555
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: talk to me. That was so incredible. I could not

556
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: believe it. But yeah, Ernie Anderson. He ended up coming

557
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: out to California and becoming a voiceover and he made

558
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 2: a lot of money doing that, doing commercials and voiceover stuff,

559
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: and his son became a filmmaker. Why was I telling

560
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: you that.

561
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: You were talking about printmaking?

562
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, so so printmaking. It'd be three point

563
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: thirty in the morning at am. This is like nineteen

564
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 2: sixty sixty nine, I think, is when I first found

565
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 2: out about print making. And I made these small decals

566
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: and stuff, and I would be so excited about it.

567
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: I'd be walking towards the parking lot where my car

568
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: was and on the way, I just had to do

569
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: something with these decals, and I start putting them up

570
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: on like fire hydrants and stop signs, and sometimes on

571
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 2: somebody's bumper and on lockers and on teacher's doors and

572
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: stuff like that. I put these up, you know, like

573
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: something every day. And one day I think, I'm it's

574
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 2: sixty nine and I'm now a sophomore, first quarter sophomore,

575
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: and these two older guys walk into where I'm where,

576
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: into the art class I'm in, and this one guy

577
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: walks up to me and he goes, are you the

578
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 2: guy putting up pictures of astronauts holding potatoes standing on

579
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: the moon? And I go, yeah, what of it? And

580
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: he goes, what did potatoes mean to you? And I

581
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: was like kind of shocked about it. And then we

582
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: started talking and he had this whole theory about, well,

583
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: potatoes are like you know, in the vegetable Kingdom, they're

584
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 2: the they're the proletariats. You know, potatoes are asymmetric, and they're

585
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: dirty and they lived underground and uh they uh, but

586
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 2: they're a staple of everyone's diet. Everybody eats potatoes every day.

587
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: They don't even think about it. They're eating French fries,

588
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: mashed potatoes, whatever kind of potatoes. They're a staple of

589
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: your diet. They're important, but but they're you know, they're

590
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: just they're not elegant or beautiful, like the asparagus or

591
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: the eggplant or something. And he says, and also potatoes

592
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: have eyes all around, so they see everything. And we

593
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: started and we started talking, and then he had a

594
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: he was a grad student and he was he was

595
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: he had a project he was doing for his grad

596
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: class and he said, how do you make those decals?

597
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: I said, God, it's easy. I use lacquer inks and

598
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: blah blah blah and special paper that's water release. And

599
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: he goes, could you make some for me? And I go, yeah,

600
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: what do you want? He goes, I want some potato men?

601
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 2: And so I made him potato man decals and for

602
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,959
Speaker 2: his senior graduation project, he took the decals and put

603
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: them on photographs of people he didn't like them as

604
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: high school and that was his grad thesis picture. But

605
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: it was Jerry Cassally and the thing that he said

606
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: to me that was as important as all of that,

607
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 2: as he said, you know, next quarter beginning of nineteen seventy,

608
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 2: you should take this class. It's a conceptual art class.

609
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: He goes, they've never had one kent before and it's important.

610
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 2: It's going to be important, and I think you should

611
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: sign up for that class. I go, I'm only as sophomore.

612
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: I don't have the credentials. He goes, it doesn't matter.

613
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: This is the first year they're using computers to to

614
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 2: assign kids classes. And you can just write in that

615
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 2: you have all the pre records. It's just right you

616
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 2: have them all, and then sign up for the class.

617
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: So I did it, and I got signed up for

618
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 2: a grad student class. That was the spring quarter of

619
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy and I was in a conceptual art class

620
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 2: with Jerry and Chuck Statler, who directed the first Devo film,

621
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: and John Zabruckie, who came out to California and started

622
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 2: Modern Props, which was one of the biggest prop companies

623
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: out here. And it was interesting because after that I decided, well,

624
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: I don't even care if I what do I care

625
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 2: if I get a bachelor's degree aout, I'm never going

626
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: to be a school teacher. I'd be terrible at that.

627
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: I don't even like schools, so I don't want to

628
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: go back to high school. So I just started signing

629
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: up for all the classes I wanted to take, and

630
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: I and when I finally left Kent State, I think

631
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: I had a bunch of important classes like tennis and

632
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: other sports classes and art history that that I hadn't taken.

633
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: So I didn't ever get to officially graduate as a

634
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: bachelor degree in art because of that. But I took

635
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: a lot of classes that I wanted to take, and

636
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 2: I made sure to take printmaking classes every quarter so

637
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: I could continue doing what I really loved.

638
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: Okay, you go to Kent State, do you bring your

639
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: fur feast of Oregon?

640
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, And what I was doing at the time

641
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: as I would go through the newspaper, like in sixty eight,

642
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 2: sixty sixty eight and sixty nine, and I was I

643
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: was looking for or bands that said, oh, we're a band,

644
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: we need a keyboard player. We can supply the keyboard,

645
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: and so if they had a keyboard, I could I

646
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: could go. Uh And whether it was a jazz band

647
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 2: or even a gospel band. I was in a couple

648
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: church bands just because they had the equipment and I

649
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: could I could play in them. And then you know,

650
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: I got a job in one band that paid my

651
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 2: way through college on my sophomore year. They played at

652
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: a strip club, and so so I just had to

653
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 2: show up at the strip club every night and play,

654
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: you know, like Sly in the Family Stone and uh

655
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: and Deep Purple or whatever they were going to be playing.

656
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 2: And and I was still making music, but I wanted

657
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: to make my own music. Uh. When I was in school,

658
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: I I I saw movies I'd never seen before, you know,

659
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: like I saw things by Enio Morricone his music, and

660
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 2: I just heard all these different artists that were experimental.

661
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: And and I saw my first synthesizer when I was

662
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: at Kent State, and I thought, I want to write

663
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: music for the seventies. You know, I'm going to write

664
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: I mean, you know that I was looking back at fifty.

665
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: I always wished I was born fifty years earlier. I

666
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: wished I would have been a teenager in Europe during

667
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: the twenties and early thirties, back back when Bauhaus and

668
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: Surrealism and Dadaism and Futurism especially. I mean, although I

669
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: didn't like their politics, their concepts about music were amazing.

670
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: Remember you know, ballet mechanique and things like that. But

671
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 2: but the Futurists, they were saying, the modern orchestra does

672
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 2: not contain the instruments capable of making sounds to represent

673
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: industrial culture. And this is like in the twenties, and

674
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: so they were they were using like fog horns and

675
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 2: they would spin a bicycle wheel and and U you know,

676
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 2: play it with a with a drumstick or something, and

677
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: they were I love that idea of just saying goodbye

678
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 2: to contemporary instruments and looking for something new, and technology

679
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: had brought this synthesizer along. I saw this guy, Morton Sebotnik,

680
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: came to Kent State and he played a show and

681
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: I just stood there right next to him, mesmerized the

682
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: whole time watching him play. And I was like, how

683
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: do I get one of those? And I thought it

684
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 2: would never happen, you know, because I had no money.

685
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember at that time. I remember thinking,

686
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: like cars, they're just a They're just, you know, a

687
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 2: waste of money. I said, you know, I said, anybody

688
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: that spends more than one hundred and fifty dollars on

689
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: a car is a sucker. I said, you can get

690
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: a car that can drive you anywhere for one hundred

691
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: and fifty bucks. And I remember saying that to my

692
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: friend and he was like, well, but you don't have

693
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: a rear window on the passenger side of your car.

694
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 2: And I go well that's yeah, But I just I

695
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: can cover that up with a piece of cardboard when

696
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: it's raining, you know. And I said, the car's only

697
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty bucks. I can drive everywhere. So

698
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: I'd been in all these different bands, and I mean

699
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 2: even one of the bands I was in during that

700
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: time period was Chrissy Hein. It was the first band

701
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: she was ever in. She was singing and there was

702
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,479
Speaker 2: an older guy that was writing music and he wrote

703
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: the songs and we played them and she sang and

704
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: she was very shy, sullen, very sullen and very shy.

705
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 2: And but we were in a band together before uh

706
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: start a devo. Okay, So the drummer from that band

707
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: that I was in with, Chrissy Hin he called me

708
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: up one day. I was like a sophomore, or maybe

709
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 2: I was a junior now, and he said, hey, Mark,

710
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: how would you like to have a HAMM and B three.

711
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 2: I go, that's some possible. They cost fifteen hundred dollars.

712
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 2: I don't have any money. He goes, how would you

713
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 2: like to have your own synthesizer? I go, that could

714
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: never happen. They don't even have I don't even know

715
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: if there are any synthesizers in Ohio, you know, and

716
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 2: he goes, I got introduced you to these guys. I

717
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 2: just I just met these guys. They're Vietnam Vets and

718
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: they went to Vietnam and I did. I came over.

719
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 2: I met these guys. They wanted to start a band,

720
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 2: and but they were all sport guys. They were all football,

721
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 2: basketball players, and they they you know, they they they

722
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 2: they didn't wait to be drafted. They they joined up,

723
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 2: you know, because they wanted, you know, they were they

724
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 2: were they wanted to protect America from from communism, and

725
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: so they went over to Vietnam. They did a lot

726
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: of LSD and they killed people. And they came back

727
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: and they were like, what just happened? What did we

728
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: just do? And they weren't sure what they had what

729
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: that was all about. And uh, they said, well, let's

730
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: start a band. But none of them could play an instrument.

731
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: But they all were getting money from the government because

732
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 2: they had all been in in uh you know, in

733
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: the in the military, and they all had jobs. So

734
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 2: they they were hiring people to be in a band

735
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 2: that they would put together. And so this drummer, they

736
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 2: gave him a house and a car and and me.

737
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 2: They said, well, you can move into the attic. So

738
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 2: I moved into the attic at their at this house

739
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,479
Speaker 2: that they had in downtown Akron, kind of a really

740
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: funky place. But we went to uh the Mogu, the

741
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 2: original Mogue company in outside of Buffalo. It wasn't that

742
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: far from Buffalo, New York. And we drove there and

743
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 2: you know, we stopped and it was a farm with

744
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 2: a gigantic barn. And we went into the barn and

745
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 2: there were these lofts that that looked there were these

746
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: tiers of wooden racks that might have held farm here

747
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 2: at one time, or bales of hay. And they had

748
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: mini mogush. They had like maybe one hundred minimugs that

749
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 2: were in process of being built by hand right there

750
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 2: and in New York, in this little rural I mean

751
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 2: to me, I thought I was in like an outer space,

752
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: you know, laboratory or something. When I saw this electronics

753
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 2: and I saw this stuff, it was like it was

754
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 2: like mind blowing. And we got a mini Mogue and

755
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: we brought it back to Akron. Ohio.

756
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: You got you gotta tell me you remember how much

757
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: you paid for it?

758
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 3: Oh?

759
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: It was fourteen hundred bucks they were, which you know,

760
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: now you can buy electronic gear cheaper than that, but

761
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: those since now, to get one of those since some

762
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: you know, the first couple hundred would it would cost you,

763
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, ten thousand bucks or five thousand dollars

764
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 2: for one of them, but well.

765
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: I guess. So these Vietnam vets laid down the fourteen hundred.

766
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they bought the synth and and all I

767
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: had to do was come home and write music at

768
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 2: the end of the day of going to school. It

769
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: was like it was like it was like amazing. I

770
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 2: couldn't believe it. It was. It was great. And so I

771
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 2: was listening to all different kinds of music back then,

772
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 2: and I remember I heard spiders from Mars and that

773
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 2: that to me, was really impressive. I really said, well,

774
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 2: this is what I want to be. I want to

775
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 2: be an artist. I want to be an artist that

776
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: makes music. And I kept listening to music, and I

777
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: remember hearing the first Roxy album and I'd been playing

778
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: with synthesizers for about about a year at this point,

779
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: and it was all right. The lyrics were the best

780
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,479
Speaker 2: part of the album. I was thinking, you know, and

781
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 2: then you know, songs like Inflatable Dolly and kind of interesting.

782
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 2: It was like Bryan's kind of darkest, most arty album.

783
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 2: And then I got to this throwaway song called the

784
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 2: Editions of You, and it was just like this song

785
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: where they gave everybody a solo, like like like if

786
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 2: you were a band playing at a nightclub or something.

787
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 2: They gave everybody these extended solos in the middle of

788
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: the song and I'm like, just listening to it. It's okay,

789
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 2: it's and then all of a sudden, the synths started

790
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 2: and this guy's playing a synthesizer, and it was like, definitely,

791
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 2: it was like a moment where I went that that's it.

792
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 2: This guy, whoever this guy is, he knows how to

793
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: make synth sounds that are unique and that haven't no

794
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 2: one's ever heard him before, and he was playing it

795
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 2: in a way that was unique and that no one

796
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 2: had ever played it since before or played it because

797
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 2: I mean there was people like Rick Wakeman and Emerson,

798
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,439
Speaker 2: you know that we're playing like they made They made

799
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 2: like synthesizers sound like glorified organs or calliopes or something.

800
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: They used really silly sounds with the since they didn't

801
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 2: really know what to do with them. And I heard

802
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: the solo by Eno, Brian Eno in this song, and

803
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 2: it was incredible and it totally helped me turn my

804
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 2: world upside down into find a direction to how to

805
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 2: look for sound and how to how to experiment with sense.

806
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 2: And so right about the same time this is all happening,

807
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: is right about the same time, there's you know, we're

808
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: at Kent State. It's April in nineteen seventy May. And

809
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: you know, I felt in Kent State, I felt empowered.

810
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: I felt like what I had to say made a difference.

811
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: You know, there was a student union and people would

812
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 2: go protest the war, or they would go protest different

813
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: things going on in the world, and or they talk

814
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 2: about them, you know, they talk about things. And I

815
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: thought what I had to say made a difference. And

816
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 2: so when they started talking about the United States is

817
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 2: now secretly invading Cambodia and we've got to stop that,

818
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: We've got to send a message to Washington, d C.

819
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 2: I joined in the protests, and so did my brother Bob,

820
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 2: and so did Jerry, who I just kind of barely

821
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:44,800
Speaker 2: knew at the time, and we were you know, they

822
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 2: shot kids at our school and killed them. They shot

823
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 2: like thirty some kids got wounded, but four of them died.

824
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 2: And I remember after that, and they closed down the school.

825
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: And I remember after that, I was saying, what maybe

826
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 2: maybe when I I I think doesn't matter. Maybe you know,

827
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 2: when they just get irritated with you enough, they just

828
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,760
Speaker 2: kill you, you know, And that's and protesting is a waste

829
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 2: of time. And that's so Jerry and I we we

830
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 2: got we had met and I was in that class.

831
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: I was telling you about the conceptual art class at

832
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 2: the time. And it got uh it got stopped in

833
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 2: the middle of the class, and they closed the school

834
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,399
Speaker 2: down for three months during the summer, and Jerry would

835
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 2: come over to where uh my brother and I lived

836
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 2: and play music with us, and we talked about what

837
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 2: was going on in the world. And and you know,

838
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 2: we had some other friends from Kent uh and I

839
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: had these people I was working with that were, you know,

840
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 2: Vietnam vets, and some of them, this one guy, Ed

841
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 2: Barger Uh was was working on sound with me. He

842
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 2: was an engineer and and we we were creating sounds

843
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 2: and looking for sounds and ways to make a synse sound.

844
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: And you know, we're we're we're working on stuff in

845
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 2: this little room, and we we kind of come to

846
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: the decision that maybe, uh, revolt, you know, maybe you know,

847
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: that's not the way to change things, you know, because

848
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: if because the powers, when they just finally get irritated enough,

849
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 2: they can just mow you down. And but at the

850
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: same time we were we wanted to talk about what

851
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 2: was going on, and and we you know, because of

852
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 2: our interest in graphics and design and things we we

853
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 2: loved like sixties and seventies stuff. You know, Spencer's catalogs

854
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 2: cracked me up. I loved the useless things that they

855
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 2: sold in a Spencer Gift catalog, and but I love

856
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: the artwork also, for the these little postcard shape things.

857
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 2: And at the time, you know, when I first went

858
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: to Kent, when I was back in sixty eight, I

859
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: found out about mail art and I started making art

860
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 2: on postcard size because of my vision, and I was

861
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 2: making it then, and so Spencer's Gifts. I would sometimes

862
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 2: add images out of a Spencer's Gift catalog and then

863
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 2: correct them, is what I'd call it, you know, when

864
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 2: I added other artwork to it, and in the process

865
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 2: we found different things. Jerry found a book with a

866
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 2: friend of his, Bob Lewis. They found this book at

867
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 2: a at like a witchcraft store or something called The

868
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,800
Speaker 2: Truth about No The beginning was the end how man

869
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 2: came about through cannibalism. And it was a Yugoslavian anthropologist

870
00:56:53,640 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 2: and you know, he was taking things that the maga

871
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 2: of the the twenties and thirties, I mean of the

872
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 2: thirties who were who were like, uh, you know, reacting

873
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 2: to Darwin and they were like the you know, there

874
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 2: was Christian groups back in the thirties that were like

875
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 2: making fun of evolution and then they said, well, de

876
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 2: evolutions more real, that's that's more likely, and it was

877
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 2: like a joke, but it was like, you know, I

878
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 2: found a reverend B. F. Shaddock from Rogers, Ohio who

879
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 2: had done all these pamphlets, and one of them was

880
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 2: called Jockohomo, and they were basically saying the same. They

881
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 2: were making fun of of science and making fun of

882
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: of of you know, evolution, and they were like say, well,

883
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 2: de evolutions really more likely and more possible. And I

884
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 2: remember we were thinking something about we liked the idea

885
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 2: of the evolution. To us, it seemed like what if

886
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 2: you took it serious instead of just use it to

887
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: make you know. I mean, it was probably at the

888
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 2: time it was like the equivalent of their eating the

889
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 2: dogs and the cats, you know. And so we took

890
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: this this idea and we said, we want to incorporate

891
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 2: it into our art, whatever that is. And we weren't

892
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 2: sure if it was music or maybe it was going

893
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 2: to be like a cabaret because we were you know,

894
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 2: we thought about all the cabarets that were going on

895
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 2: in Europe at the time. But I mean in the

896
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 2: twenties and early thirties, we were thinking about that. I thought, wow,

897
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 2: that wouldn't that be great if we did did like

898
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 2: shows like that? And Jerry and I were both into that,

899
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 2: and so was into it. He just wanted to play

900
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 2: guitar mostly. But we uh, we started writing songs and

901
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 2: my brother was helping me, like look for strange sounds,

902
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: and we found this thing by Electra harmon X. It

903
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 2: was a stomp box that only made ugly sounds. It

904
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 2: was called a frequency analyzer. It was incredible. The fact

905
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 2: that they even made it and put it out. I'm

906
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 2: still I'm still so happy for that because I used

907
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 2: that to create so many of the DeVos sounds in

908
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 2: the early days, things like the like the clown horns

909
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 2: and Jockohan with the oh stuff like that, and I

910
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 2: played it on. Jerry was writing these songs that were

911
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 2: kind of like his songs were a little bit like

912
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: the Thugs or something, but and I just put these

913
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 2: ugly abstract sounds over top of it, and it gave

914
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 2: it a whole nother feeling. It gave it a whole

915
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 2: nother impetus. And anyhow, so I was writing stuff like Jockohomo,

916
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 2: and it was like in a timing where you couldn't

917
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 2: answer to it. It was like, really, I was thinking

918
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 2: of it. It was going to go on a stage.

919
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 2: We'd be performing it in a in a theater somewhere

920
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 2: and do a show with it. And Jerry was He

921
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: said to Bob, I mean to Chuck Statler. He said

922
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 2: something like, I don't know about Mark and what he's

923
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 2: doing with sounds. It's kind of stuff's all kind of weird.

924
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know if this band's gonna

925
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 2: work or not. And so he he kind of was

926
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 2: thinking about taking a he was thinking about maybe taking

927
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 2: another path. I think he was gonna come out and

928
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 2: work on the prop store with John zon Brookie. He

929
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 2: was thinking about starting that company with him instead, and

930
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 2: I said to him, I said, you can do whatever

931
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 2: you want to do, but I'm doing a band and

932
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make sure that this happens no matter what.

933
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:55,919
Speaker 2: And Chuck Statler had left Akron to go to Minneapolis

934
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 2: and to make commercials and a year or so before

935
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 2: or that, and he came over right about at that

936
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: time period and he U this, this is like seventy

937
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 2: four now, and he had a I think it was

938
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 2: a popular electronics magazine and on the front of it

939
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 2: it had like a like a young couple, a man

940
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 2: and a woman, and they're smiling and they're like going

941
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 2: like this. They're they're like going like that with their hands,

942
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 2: you know, like uh, like wow. And they had the

943
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 2: silver disc in their hand that looked like it was

944
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 2: the size of a of a LP but it but

945
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 2: it was like a mirrored surface, silver mirrored surface. And

946
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 2: it turns out they had something called a laser disc.

947
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,760
Speaker 2: And the magazine on the cover it said laser discs.

948
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: Everyone will have him by Christmas. And you know, Chuck

949
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 2: that to Jerry me and we're like that's what we're

950
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,959
Speaker 2: making music for laser discs. We're making art for laser discs.

951
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 2: That's what we thought we were gonna We thought that

952
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 2: laser discs. We in our minds we imagined forty five's

953
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 2: would now all be silver. They'd be the silver material

954
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 2: and uh LPs would be the silver material. And not

955
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 2: only would you get, you know, like forty minutes or

956
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 2: more of music, you'd get visual image to go along

957
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 2: with it. And Jerry and I said, that's us rock

958
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 2: and rolls over. This is something new, this is something

959
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: this is the next thing. This is you know, sound

960
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: and vision. And that's what we became interested in. But Jerry,

961
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: but Chuck, he was worried that that Jerry was gonna

962
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 2: quit the bat was gonna like gonna like stop working

963
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 2: with me because of what I was doing with music.

964
01:02:55,880 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 2: And and he said, hey, let's make a film. And

965
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 2: so Chuck made up a move at seven and a

966
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 2: half minute short film. It had two Devo songs in it,

967
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 2: Jockohomo and then I wrote this song where I ended

968
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 2: up taking thirteen words out of a Johnny Rivers song,

969
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 2: and so I called it Secret Agent Man. But I

970
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 2: wrote all the music, all the lyrics, all the melody,

971
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 2: everything except for those thirteen secret Agent man they've given you,

972
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 2: they've given me a number taking away my name. And

973
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 2: back in those days, that meant that Johnny Rivers owned

974
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 2: the song. That's how they used to do it in

975
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 2: the old days, if you had an influence like that.

976
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 2: But he made this film and it came out really good,

977
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 2: and we all collaborated on it. Everybody had something to

978
01:03:54,280 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 2: do with it. Everybody contributed, and Chuck after he did it,

979
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 2: it's like, what do you do with that? You know,

980
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 2: there was nothing to do with it. It's years before

981
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: MTV was going to come out. So he just put

982
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 2: it in the ann Arbor Film Festival and it won

983
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 2: first prize for Film Short and we were like, what

984
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: that's a movie called The Beginning?

985
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: Was the End?

986
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 2: The Truth about the Evolution? That won first prize in

987
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 2: the film festival. We were like so blown away by it.

988
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 2: We love that and it just kind of made us

989
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 2: double down. Everybody really doubled down at that point and

990
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 2: we really knew what we wanted to do and that

991
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 2: was that was how it began. Pretty much.

992
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Jerry connected with you over the potato Jerry brought

993
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 1: the book about the evolution all this from that starting

994
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 1: point he found the book. Yeah, from that starting point.

995
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: Is he the king of philosophy in the band or

996
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: he just brought it? And now the two of you

997
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: are more coming with philosophy.

998
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think we both came up with it,

999
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 2: I think, and there were other people that added things too.

1000
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 2: You know. It's like when I found the Jockohomo pamphlets.

1001
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 2: I found out that this reverend had done a whole

1002
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 2: series of anti evolution pamphlets with artwork and them and

1003
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 2: the word de evolution was printed on the chest of

1004
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 2: a devil in Jockohomo on the second page, and he's pointing.

1005
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 2: The devil is smiling, and he's pointing to a staircase

1006
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 2: that is the staircase to heaven. And each step is

1007
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 2: some human uh, some human wrongdoing like like uh like slavery,

1008
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 2: World War one, World War two, uh, murder. Each of

1009
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 2: the steps had a different night name all the way

1010
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 2: up to the top. And we all, you know, I

1011
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 2: think we all kind of contributed to it, you know,

1012
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 2: and everybody everybody had some piece of it. Uh. I.

1013
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 2: I got inspired in that time period in like in

1014
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 2: seventy five, I wrote a book by Boogie Boy and

1015
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 2: it was Dream of Consciousness and it was crazy. It

1016
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 2: was kind of like he took this guy that had

1017
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 2: that had been tortured in high school and and grade

1018
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 2: school his whole life and uh disrespected and he just

1019
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 2: like it was like it was like that that kid

1020
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 2: just took a stick and hit a pinata. It was

1021
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 2: his brain and all this stuff came flowing out. Lyrics

1022
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 2: for songs, the titles for our first three albums, imagery

1023
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 2: for our first three albums. Everybody, everybody had something to do.

1024
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 2: Jerry was a couple of years older than the rest

1025
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 2: of us, a couple of years than me, and then

1026
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 2: I was a couple of years older than Bob and

1027
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 2: Jim and Alan and Bob Sally and he was our spokesperson.

1028
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 2: He was definitely our spokesperson, and he was always right

1029
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 2: on the mark. He was really good at that, and

1030
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 2: we liked that as a band. We liked having a

1031
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 2: spokesperson because you know, you'd see the sex pistols on

1032
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 2: TV or or even the Who, and they'd be like

1033
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 2: acting like school children, you know, misbehaving while they're sitting

1034
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:09,960
Speaker 2: there doing an interview and like like you know, like

1035
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 2: Keith Moon would be like like you know, like trying

1036
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:20,600
Speaker 2: to distract you know, uh you know, uh you know

1037
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 2: the singer or something from talking and uh where else,

1038
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, Sid Vicious and Johnny Rotten would be like

1039
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 2: throwing things at each other on on uh you know,

1040
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 2: English TV and stuff like that. We wanted to we

1041
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 2: wanted to be totally different. We wanted to really we

1042
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:46,799
Speaker 2: we considered ourselves uh an art project from the very beginning,

1043
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 2: and so we wore matching outfits. But it wasn't like

1044
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 2: tailored suits like uh all the British bands. It was

1045
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 2: like we were wearing matching jen natorial outfits and we

1046
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 2: look very you know, we look very blue collar, working class.

1047
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 2: And we had one person talking and it would be Jerry,

1048
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 2: and rather than nonsensical, he would be talking about the

1049
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:18,719
Speaker 2: evolution almost every time.

1050
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 1: Okay, the late sixties, especially bleeding into the seventies, we're

1051
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 1: a time of irreverence. You'd reference the Thugs earlier, but

1052
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,639
Speaker 1: they're almost lowbrow compared to all this irreverence, and all

1053
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 1: the art was based in alienation. Now, granted, we live

1054
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:43,599
Speaker 1: in a multifurious world today, but we don't have that

1055
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 1: today everything is serious and money oriented. How come we

1056
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: don't have that irreverence today.

1057
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 2: I think you're just looking in the wrong places for it, Bob,

1058
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 2: I think, And it seems like every fifty years late.

1059
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 2: It's like fifty years before before this was was you know,

1060
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:10,439
Speaker 2: the unrest and you know, in the Vietnam thing, and

1061
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 2: then fifty years before that was what was going was

1062
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 2: right between World War One and World War two in Europe.

1063
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,600
Speaker 2: And I think what's happening now is there is a

1064
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,600
Speaker 2: lot of exactly what you're talking about, but it's you

1065
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 2: have to look different places for it. Uh. I don't

1066
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 2: I think, you know, like you know, I'm you know,

1067
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 2: I'm not casting any aspersions. But I don't think Taylor

1068
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:39,680
Speaker 2: Swift it is relevant to any of that. She's like,

1069
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 2: that's like a whole different kind of what what you know,

1070
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 2: music that makes money is is something totally different than

1071
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:50,720
Speaker 2: what it was fifty years ago. But I think the

1072
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 2: irreverence is there. I think it's on the Internet. I

1073
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 2: think the hard part about it is you've got a

1074
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:03,680
Speaker 2: lot of just plain old stupidity and you've got you know,

1075
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 2: if you go on the Internet and you look at

1076
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:09,719
Speaker 2: responses to like anything that happened in the news today,

1077
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:14,959
Speaker 2: you'll see an extreme left and an extreme right speaker

1078
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 2: that are saying things to try to get people upset

1079
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 2: or to get them worked up. And they don't really

1080
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:23,759
Speaker 2: represent the left or the right. They're like just they're

1081
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 2: just you know, people that are trying to get attention,

1082
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 2: and they're trying to get people to like log onto

1083
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 2: their site with outrageous statements. I think kids are maybe

1084
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 2: a little wise to that, and wiser than we're giving

1085
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:42,719
Speaker 2: them credit for, because I think I think they see

1086
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:48,519
Speaker 2: a lot of that is nonsensical and it's not really

1087
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 2: where people are. I think most of the humans in

1088
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 2: the world are somewhere in between those two extremes that

1089
01:11:57,439 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 2: you hear arguing about, you know, you know, accusing immigrants

1090
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 2: eating dogs and cats and accusing uh uh, you know,

1091
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 2: the right of like being out to shoot everybody they

1092
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 2: can shoot. You know, there's there's like I think there's

1093
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 2: most of us, I think are more about common sense

1094
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 2: and about you know, survival. We want to live, you know,

1095
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 2: we're not trying to to destroy the planet. And but

1096
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:35,439
Speaker 2: but I think from an art standpoint, I think there's

1097
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 2: even more outlets now than there were before, and that

1098
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 2: that's kind of great. I mean, and right at this

1099
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:46,240
Speaker 2: this moment, this exact moment we're talking whenever it is

1100
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 2: when this, when this comes over the air, this thing

1101
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:55,280
Speaker 2: with AI has totally raised all the ante and and

1102
01:12:55,320 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 2: the possibilities for what could be considered art and sentient thought.

1103
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:06,759
Speaker 2: I'm I'm kind of I wish I was like fifteen

1104
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:08,720
Speaker 2: right now. I wish I was young enough that this

1105
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 2: was I was just starting. I think this is an

1106
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:13,759
Speaker 2: amazing time to be alive on this planet.

1107
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 1: Tell me more about the AI and your feelings about

1108
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 1: wanting to be young, etc. Go deeper.

1109
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 2: I see AI as being a way to I mean,

1110
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:30,200
Speaker 2: think about how people felt when cars came out and

1111
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 2: they were like freaked out and they but my horse

1112
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 2: and buggy. I'll never leave my horse behind. I always

1113
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 2: have to ride my horse. I'll never ride one of

1114
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 2: those stupid loud machines, you know, and people freak out

1115
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,800
Speaker 2: when stuff happens, but you know, cars are actually a

1116
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:50,719
Speaker 2: lot more sensible in certain ways than horses and buggies

1117
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 2: sort of. I mean, now we've taken it too far. Now,

1118
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 2: maybe there's too many humans, but that's another story to

1119
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 2: talk about. But as far as ai, I think, I

1120
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 2: love the idea. When I was a kid and I

1121
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 2: wanted to be in a band, and like I told you,

1122
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 2: I'd read the newspaper to find out bands I could

1123
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 2: play it. I I remember thinking, well, it's cost too

1124
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:19,719
Speaker 2: much to buy a keyboard. I can't own a Wurlitzer

1125
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:23,439
Speaker 2: electric piano, so I can't be in a band. But

1126
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 2: but nowadays a kid can be walking home from school

1127
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 2: and they could they could have an idea for a bassline,

1128
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:32,760
Speaker 2: and they could be going into their phone. They could

1129
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 2: go boom boom doom doo doo. Boom boom boom bo

1130
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 2: doo doo, and then they could go online and they

1131
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,600
Speaker 2: could sign it to like you could say, oh, I

1132
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 2: want it to sound like the Foo Fighters, and so

1133
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 2: then they play that. They'd use an electric bassis sound

1134
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 2: like Foo Fighters. They say, oh no, I wanted to

1135
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 2: sound like John Coltrane, and then there would be an

1136
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:52,200
Speaker 2: upright bass playing the part where they say, oh, I

1137
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:54,040
Speaker 2: want it to sound like Windy Carlos, And then it

1138
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,519
Speaker 2: would be a mini mog Since or a moge Since

1139
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 2: or something. You can you can do all that and

1140
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 2: then if you like that, then you could say, they

1141
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 2: can go into the same phone and they can go

1142
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 2: boom ba boom boom bah. They can do a drum

1143
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:10,720
Speaker 2: beat in the phone and they can pick what kind

1144
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:12,680
Speaker 2: of drums they want it to sound like what they

1145
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 2: are trying to do, change the tempo, the speed. They

1146
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:18,160
Speaker 2: can put those two together. They can keep adding instruments

1147
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 2: on of whatever kind of instruments you want. I just

1148
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:24,760
Speaker 2: picked really basic common instruments that you know, having a

1149
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:29,280
Speaker 2: set of drums in my day meant that you had

1150
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 2: them down on the basement and after about an hour

1151
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:35,719
Speaker 2: your parents would be opening the door going stop playing

1152
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 2: those things, you know, get off of that, you know.

1153
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:43,840
Speaker 2: And now it's like totally different. And if a kid

1154
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,000
Speaker 2: has an idea for a song, he can put it

1155
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:47,960
Speaker 2: all together on his phone. You know. It's like your

1156
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:52,439
Speaker 2: phone has more power than the Beatles had when they

1157
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:56,920
Speaker 2: were recording in London and doing their albums, they had

1158
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 2: like these four track tape recorders and then it went

1159
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:03,120
Speaker 2: up to eight, sixteen and twenty four. But kids now

1160
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 2: they have more power than that in their phone and

1161
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 2: they can do it so fast and if they get

1162
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,639
Speaker 2: something that they like, they don't have to go out

1163
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 2: and find a record company. I mean, I remember when

1164
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 2: I was in out of high school. I remember thinking,

1165
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 2: I don't think there's any record companies in Ohio, and

1166
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 2: if you did, how would you get them to put

1167
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 2: out your record anyhow? And you know, now kids they

1168
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 2: can just go right directly to the Internet. They can

1169
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 2: put their song up on it, they can make a

1170
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 2: video to go with it, and they don't have to

1171
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 2: ask anybody. And it's like there's more artistic freedom than that,

1172
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 2: you know. That's that's how I feel. I feel. It's like,

1173
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,759
Speaker 2: you know, it's a pretty great time.

1174
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 1: Okay, you were speaking of music. You talked about the

1175
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 1: two pole or opposites, the left and the right, expanding it.

1176
01:16:58,000 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 1: Since you have a band that was based on DV

1177
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:04,280
Speaker 1: so we live in this era, how are things going

1178
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:08,200
Speaker 1: to play out on a macro level, not just people

1179
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 1: making music?

1180
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 2: Okay, all right? I have to admit I've been the

1181
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:21,600
Speaker 2: optimist in Devo since the beginning, and that's why I

1182
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 2: became the character Boogie Boy. I think I think Boogie

1183
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 2: Boy was always the optimist and looked at the bright side.

1184
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 2: Jerry is definitely the pessimist and thinks it's all going down.

1185
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:37,080
Speaker 2: He thinks for this is the Titanic and it's all

1186
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:47,839
Speaker 2: going under. I think I think people. I think people

1187
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 2: are just learning what their capabilities are and what their

1188
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 2: possibilities are, and I think they need to be aware

1189
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 2: of the fact that humans are the unnatural species, for

1190
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:07,799
Speaker 2: better and for worse, mostly in a lot of ways

1191
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 2: for worse. I just finished a film with a Pixar

1192
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 2: and I can't talk about it too much, but it's

1193
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:18,040
Speaker 2: kids film, but it's but it basically that's what the

1194
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 2: messages for kids are, like the animals save the humans

1195
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:26,679
Speaker 2: in the end, and you're like, like, oh, maybe humans

1196
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:30,120
Speaker 2: are the one species that are out of touch with nature.

1197
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 2: And I think I think some of that's going to

1198
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 2: come back. I don't I don't want to move to Mars.

1199
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 2: I think anybody that wants to go to Mars, oh

1200
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:42,200
Speaker 2: my gosh, go go man. It looks beautiful up there.

1201
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:47,000
Speaker 2: Have fun, you know. I want to see planet Earth

1202
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 2: get restored. And personally, I think maybe it means less

1203
01:18:55,560 --> 01:19:03,000
Speaker 2: humans or being more careful than just like randomly everybody

1204
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 2: just making kids. We've been too successful at that. I

1205
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 2: think it. I think it's kind of there's a lot

1206
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:24,360
Speaker 2: of things to think about and I'm hoping, I'm hoping

1207
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:26,439
Speaker 2: that we don't blow ourselves up. I mean, it could happen.

1208
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,519
Speaker 2: I mean, if you put one crazy person in charge

1209
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 2: of a nuclear weapon, they could actually they could end everything,

1210
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 2: you know, And so that kind of stuff really worries me.

1211
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:45,000
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go from thirty thousand feet down to the planet.

1212
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:48,040
Speaker 1: We live in an era now that is completely different

1213
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 1: from when we grew up. I'm your contemporary, and what

1214
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:58,719
Speaker 1: do we know. You have all these tools, generally speaking,

1215
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:01,760
Speaker 1: baby boomers, A lot of Gen xers hate them. They

1216
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,559
Speaker 1: think the smartphone is the devil, they think AI is

1217
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:08,479
Speaker 1: the devil, etc. So you have all these kids who

1218
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:15,639
Speaker 1: live in that world. We have a president who, let's

1219
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:20,439
Speaker 1: just say he has authoritarian elements. Okay, we have the

1220
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:25,200
Speaker 1: same people who are on smartphones, experiencing AI, living on

1221
01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 1: the internet. Their future economically is not what it was

1222
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 1: for previous generations. So do we just stumble along or

1223
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:40,639
Speaker 1: is our big bang event? How does this work out? Well?

1224
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 2: I think what's happening right now in politics all over

1225
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:49,840
Speaker 2: the world is really educating everyone. And I think they're

1226
01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 2: seeing that there are dangers to stupidity and greed, and

1227
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 2: you know, it's like I only know a few kids.

1228
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 2: I don't know how many are in your life. There's

1229
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:10,519
Speaker 2: much less than used to be in my life. I

1230
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 2: have a couple of girls in the early twenties, and

1231
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,600
Speaker 2: I talk to them and talk to their friends that

1232
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 2: come over, and it's that's about it.

1233
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:19,760
Speaker 3: Really.

1234
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:23,160
Speaker 2: I don't get to hang out with a teenager or ever.

1235
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:29,599
Speaker 2: So I'm I listen to what they say and how

1236
01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:31,800
Speaker 2: they're reacting to things, and I think they have a

1237
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:36,280
Speaker 2: much healthier attitude than than people that are like panicked

1238
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 2: and that are you know, that are to think there's

1239
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:44,640
Speaker 2: only gonna there can only be a bad outcome to this.

1240
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:48,680
Speaker 2: I think I think we're I think we're in a

1241
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:52,400
Speaker 2: learning curve right now, learning process.

1242
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:57,800
Speaker 1: Think you have these twenty year old girls, where are

1243
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 1: they at? More specifically, because you talk to.

1244
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:08,080
Speaker 2: Them, they uh, they kind of they kind of they

1245
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:13,559
Speaker 2: see technology in a much more realistic way than their

1246
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:17,320
Speaker 2: mom and dads do. It's like it's like, you know,

1247
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 2: they look at us and and uh, my wife's saying, okay,

1248
01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:26,839
Speaker 2: film h Eddie's film No our show is on tonight

1249
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 2: on uh TCM. So we got to like be we

1250
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:32,559
Speaker 2: got to be finished whatever we're doing so at eight

1251
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:34,880
Speaker 2: o'clock we can see the show and my kids just

1252
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 2: roll their eyes, like, why you're you're you like you're

1253
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 2: like a slave to the time schedule of the of

1254
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 2: the TV set. You know, they don't they think that's

1255
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:47,640
Speaker 2: that's humorous things like that. You know that they they

1256
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 2: do have more sophisticated, uh take on technology than us,

1257
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:56,360
Speaker 2: and we're we're always are asking them how to how

1258
01:22:56,360 --> 01:22:59,759
Speaker 2: to make things work. It's never the other way around.

1259
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: Well, how about yourself, I mean, you were at the

1260
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:14,080
Speaker 1: cutting edge with the mode you're talking about the future.

1261
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 1: Are you seeing that when it comes to tech you're

1262
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:19,600
Speaker 1: somewhat of alvenite.

1263
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:24,519
Speaker 2: I'm saying that there's so much information and there's so

1264
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:26,680
Speaker 2: many things that you can be involved, and you can

1265
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 2: choose what you want to be involved in. And for me,

1266
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:37,719
Speaker 2: I still have I still have a couple of things

1267
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 2: I love and one of them is writing music.

1268
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:41,920
Speaker 1: That to me.

1269
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 2: Is a revelation that that, even more so than with DEVO,

1270
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:51,479
Speaker 2: it came. I became aware of it when I started

1271
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:58,679
Speaker 2: scoring films and games and TV shows. And I love

1272
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:01,800
Speaker 2: doing visual art and I still do it in a

1273
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:05,400
Speaker 2: small size, I still do it on postcard size because

1274
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 2: I was into mail art back in my teenage years

1275
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:11,320
Speaker 2: and it meant a lot to me. And then I

1276
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:15,400
Speaker 2: started keeping the art because it would have you know,

1277
01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:22,960
Speaker 2: like lyrics or ideas for album art or costumes, and

1278
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:28,720
Speaker 2: so those are still really important to me. And I

1279
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:34,320
Speaker 2: do incorporate technology, but I can't do everything. It's like

1280
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:39,599
Speaker 2: I use my phone and I do work on AI.

1281
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 2: I do things like I do. I'm experimenting with like

1282
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:50,720
Speaker 2: art for for Devo, and it's i mean even just

1283
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 2: plain old chat GPT, which is like about as run

1284
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:57,840
Speaker 2: of the mill age you can get. When we were

1285
01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:02,080
Speaker 2: playing at the Hollywood Bowl a couple weeks ago, I

1286
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 2: took a couple of pictures that I had made on

1287
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:06,439
Speaker 2: my phone while I was sitting on an airplane and

1288
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:08,639
Speaker 2: gave them to our lighting director and he put them

1289
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:11,760
Speaker 2: on the screen and oh my god, they came out

1290
01:25:11,760 --> 01:25:15,559
Speaker 2: full resolution, fifty feet across, thirty feet high. I couldn't

1291
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:17,280
Speaker 2: believe it, and I made it on my phone. I

1292
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:20,120
Speaker 2: was like, that's unbelievable. And I just found that out

1293
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago. So now I'm really investigating

1294
01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 2: that element because like I do stuff on cards, like

1295
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:31,120
Speaker 2: I'll show you something here.

1296
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 1: Well, this is audio only, so you're gonna have to

1297
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:35,200
Speaker 1: describe it for by audience.

1298
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:40,960
Speaker 2: Okay, So this here, that's a picture that I found

1299
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:46,040
Speaker 2: online of a potato. And instead of just starting out

1300
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:49,720
Speaker 2: with a blank card, which I've done for decades, now

1301
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:52,719
Speaker 2: I can put a potato on a card really easy

1302
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:56,760
Speaker 2: that I find online. And then I'm using, like, you

1303
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 2: know that really irritating those ad camp means that like

1304
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:03,840
Speaker 2: just to just like get in your way when you're

1305
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:07,320
Speaker 2: trying to like read the news or or do something

1306
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 2: on the internet, even just use texting or use any

1307
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 2: or use your Google or something. There's all these horrible ads.

1308
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:18,280
Speaker 2: But then I've started finding the artwork on them. I

1309
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:24,479
Speaker 2: started finding it entertaining and and so I take some

1310
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:26,080
Speaker 2: of the other artwork and I do the same thing

1311
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:30,320
Speaker 2: I did with the Spencer Gifts art and I, you know,

1312
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:32,639
Speaker 2: I just take these things off on my phone and

1313
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:34,600
Speaker 2: I can just put them in a printer when I

1314
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 2: come to work here. I'm I've been writing music in

1315
01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:42,640
Speaker 2: this same building on Sunset Strip for thirty five years,

1316
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:45,519
Speaker 2: and I have a printer here, so I could just

1317
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:48,280
Speaker 2: throw these in the printer and print them up. And

1318
01:26:49,280 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 2: I'm not doing the most sophisticated AI work out there

1319
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 2: by any means. I'm doing this the most run of

1320
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 2: the mill, easy to do stuff. But what's exciting to

1321
01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:02,760
Speaker 2: me about it is if you're a conceptual artist. And

1322
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:04,840
Speaker 2: this is what I've been talking to Jerry about this,

1323
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:07,800
Speaker 2: because I do art all the time, I do physical

1324
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:10,760
Speaker 2: art all the time, but he doesn't. And I said,

1325
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 2: you really got to investigate AI. I said, you really

1326
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:16,519
Speaker 2: just got to try it out, because he's really good

1327
01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 2: with ideas. He loves to, you know, come up with

1328
01:27:20,120 --> 01:27:23,599
Speaker 2: an idea for something, but he doesn't like to go

1329
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:31,840
Speaker 2: through the you know, the the all the toil that's involved.

1330
01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 2: So so I just I just think I'm going to

1331
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:38,559
Speaker 2: start We're going to start seeing things from people. And

1332
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:41,200
Speaker 2: it's just so early on. You know, AI hasn't been

1333
01:27:41,200 --> 01:27:44,640
Speaker 2: around that long and it and it's getting bigger and

1334
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:48,760
Speaker 2: bigger all the time. I just love the idea that

1335
01:27:48,760 --> 01:27:52,160
Speaker 2: that kids could make films, that we all could make films,

1336
01:27:52,360 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 2: and you know, why not. Why shouldn't everybody be allowed

1337
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:57,960
Speaker 2: to make films? Why should it only be like those

1338
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 2: that that a film company is willing to invest in.

1339
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:05,960
Speaker 2: I love the idea of letting everybody make something, and

1340
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:08,640
Speaker 2: then I think that's going to raise the level of

1341
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:12,720
Speaker 2: quality and that you'll find things that then there'll be

1342
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:16,840
Speaker 2: even more. I think they'll be more great art. That's

1343
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:17,439
Speaker 2: what I think.

1344
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:24,800
Speaker 1: Okay, in the seventies, Divo is toiling in obscurity. Then

1345
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:27,360
Speaker 1: you get even before the Warner Brothers deals, you were

1346
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 1: in the Metropolis, they would play at Los Angeles on KOQ.

1347
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 1: This is the old free format chocube for the Rocket

1348
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 1: of the nineties, so you were aware. Then you have

1349
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:39,519
Speaker 1: an album on Warner Brothers, so that people kind of

1350
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:44,080
Speaker 1: paying attention know what's going on. Then you're on TV.

1351
01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:49,080
Speaker 1: Anybody with a modicum of hypnis knows who Divo is

1352
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:52,720
Speaker 1: and know if nothing else that we make of satisfaction,

1353
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:57,600
Speaker 1: then you're on ASSNL, and then you're on MTV. So

1354
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:01,400
Speaker 1: the people who are completely not paying attention or aware

1355
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 1: of you today, that's an impossibility. The initial hurdle that

1356
01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:12,679
Speaker 1: Divo had, which was recording a national distribution, that's easy.

1357
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:17,840
Speaker 1: Gaining the attention is difficult even at this laid date.

1358
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 1: For yourself. You create something, the ripples are not going

1359
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 1: to go as far. Is that frustrating?

1360
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:33,760
Speaker 2: For you. I think it's a trade off because you know,

1361
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:39,680
Speaker 2: back when I was doing it, or before I was

1362
01:29:39,720 --> 01:29:42,439
Speaker 2: doing it, and I was just a fan, Like I said,

1363
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 2: I would go to the record store and there would

1364
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:47,880
Speaker 2: be a dozen or less albums in that box. There'd

1365
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 2: be one sun Raw album, there'd be one Zappa album.

1366
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 2: And now, if you go on the Internet and there's

1367
01:29:55,920 --> 01:29:58,840
Speaker 2: something you want to hear, you just throw a few

1368
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:08,400
Speaker 2: words into you know, into Google or Amazon, and and whila,

1369
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:10,640
Speaker 2: there's something anything you say you want to hear. If

1370
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:19,160
Speaker 2: you want to hear a space age, hillbilly croquet music,

1371
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:21,240
Speaker 2: if you put those three words in there, there's some

1372
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:25,400
Speaker 2: band that does that. And I kind of love that.

1373
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 2: I think it's a trade off. And you're right if

1374
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:30,960
Speaker 2: you want to be like, if you want to be

1375
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:36,360
Speaker 2: a rock star, you know, maybe you missed your opportunity

1376
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:39,120
Speaker 2: to be a rock star. I mean you can there

1377
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:41,840
Speaker 2: are some. I mean there's Taylor Swift. You know, she's

1378
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:44,720
Speaker 2: still out there and she's she's bigger than ever. She's

1379
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,639
Speaker 2: bigger than anybody ever was, you know, the Beatles. She's

1380
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:50,320
Speaker 2: probably sells more records in one year than the Beatles

1381
01:30:50,360 --> 01:30:54,519
Speaker 2: sold in their whole lifetime. But I don't know that number.

1382
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:57,360
Speaker 2: I just made that up. But you know what I'm saying,

1383
01:30:57,400 --> 01:31:00,360
Speaker 2: it's like you're training for something that might be better,

1384
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:04,360
Speaker 2: and that is that more people have access to the

1385
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:07,639
Speaker 2: ability to be artists and the ability to make a statement.

1386
01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:13,320
Speaker 2: And because of that, the best stuff you can find.

1387
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:16,320
Speaker 2: You're you're thinking that the best stuff gets lost, But

1388
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:19,439
Speaker 2: I don't think that totally is the case. I think

1389
01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:23,920
Speaker 2: there's a lot of great music that there's people that

1390
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:26,719
Speaker 2: that's what they're searching for, and so they put together

1391
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:31,479
Speaker 2: a collection of White Mice or whoever the bands are

1392
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:34,760
Speaker 2: that they like that are doing some certain kind of

1393
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:38,519
Speaker 2: electronic music. And if you find one of those, if

1394
01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:40,360
Speaker 2: you if you even just say what it is you're

1395
01:31:40,400 --> 01:31:43,679
Speaker 2: looking for, there's these people will show you know, these

1396
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:46,720
Speaker 2: sites will show up that will have that music and

1397
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:49,400
Speaker 2: help you find it. And I think we're in a

1398
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:52,280
Speaker 2: really nice time because of that. You know, if you

1399
01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 2: got if you want to get into rock and roll

1400
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:56,960
Speaker 2: because you want to get rich, well good luck. You know,

1401
01:31:57,080 --> 01:32:01,599
Speaker 2: that's another story. It's hard to be Taylor's whoever. Those

1402
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:03,800
Speaker 2: people are, all those people that are getting to make

1403
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:07,360
Speaker 2: all that money. But if you're doing it because you're

1404
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:09,760
Speaker 2: an artist, or because you have something to say, or

1405
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:13,880
Speaker 2: because you just love making music. Now's the best time ever.

1406
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:18,439
Speaker 1: I just want to make a comment on Taylor Swift.

1407
01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:20,679
Speaker 2: I know I said her name a few too many times.

1408
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: No, since you mentioned it. The example I always uses,

1409
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:29,240
Speaker 1: I can sing every lick of Louis Armstrong Slo Dolly,

1410
01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 1: not because I liked it, but because I was waiting

1411
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:37,280
Speaker 1: for the Beatles or British invasion. Whereas today, without making

1412
01:32:37,560 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 1: a judgment whatever, the average person can't mean to Taylor

1413
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:45,439
Speaker 1: swift songs, never mind seeing them. She's making a lot

1414
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:49,360
Speaker 1: of money, but even Taylor Swift doesn't have the ubiquity

1415
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:51,080
Speaker 1: of acts Billy J.

1416
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 2: Kramer, Okay, maybe yes, maybe no. I think if you

1417
01:32:58,040 --> 01:33:01,800
Speaker 2: were the same age that you were when you were

1418
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:07,519
Speaker 2: singing Hello Dolly or or Beatles songs for the first time,

1419
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:11,559
Speaker 2: I think those people might know more about Taylor Swift

1420
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 2: than you think. And it doesn't matter if they do

1421
01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:17,439
Speaker 2: or don't. But I'm just saying you're in an age

1422
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:20,120
Speaker 2: that doesn't need Taylor Swift.

1423
01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:27,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's leave that aside for now. You and Jerry.

1424
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:31,400
Speaker 1: He comes from the conceptual art world, you're an independent thinker.

1425
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:36,840
Speaker 1: He's a few years older, which makes a difference when

1426
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:40,479
Speaker 1: you're twenty, doesn't make a difference when you're seventy. Okay,

1427
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:44,639
Speaker 1: and you he was a spokesman. So in this fifty

1428
01:33:44,680 --> 01:33:48,280
Speaker 1: odd years, how have you and Jerry gotten along?

1429
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:56,040
Speaker 2: Very spinal tap But you know, it's like, to tell

1430
01:33:56,040 --> 01:34:00,360
Speaker 2: you the truth, I really respect what he did and

1431
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:05,680
Speaker 2: who he is, and and we are quite different. You know,

1432
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 2: we are quite different as artists. But you know it's

1433
01:34:10,160 --> 01:34:13,519
Speaker 2: like I think, if we wouldn't have both been there,

1434
01:34:13,800 --> 01:34:18,679
Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been devo. And so I'm really thankful

1435
01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:18,960
Speaker 2: for that.

1436
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:23,439
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the silk call. Well, the

1437
01:34:23,479 --> 01:34:29,400
Speaker 1: early days, you formalize you have this movie that wins.

1438
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 1: You know, it's not you're a movie, but you're in

1439
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:36,160
Speaker 1: it whatever, blah blah blah. You're on the path. But

1440
01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:42,680
Speaker 1: the breakthrough comes years later. How did you maintain optimism

1441
01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:45,000
Speaker 1: and say this is gonna work or maybe you didn't

1442
01:34:45,160 --> 01:34:47,120
Speaker 1: think it was gonna work. Maybe times you're going to

1443
01:34:47,160 --> 01:34:49,599
Speaker 1: give up. What was going on in your mind in

1444
01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 1: those years?

1445
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:56,320
Speaker 2: Well, I I just loved it, you know, I was

1446
01:34:56,479 --> 01:34:59,519
Speaker 2: enjoying it the whole time. To me, the idea of

1447
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:03,480
Speaker 2: writing more music and coming up with more artistic ideas

1448
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:08,200
Speaker 2: and making what we were doing bigger and better. I

1449
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:12,479
Speaker 2: think Jerry was I love the idea of like working

1450
01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:14,920
Speaker 2: on it too. I we we both did, and and

1451
01:35:17,720 --> 01:35:20,080
Speaker 2: you know, it did take years for things to change.

1452
01:35:20,280 --> 01:35:23,200
Speaker 2: And you know, there were times when I thought, well,

1453
01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:25,360
Speaker 2: maybe this is as good as it gets. But I

1454
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:31,759
Speaker 2: do remember, uh when Whip It became a hit, and

1455
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:35,320
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you know, like little kids would

1456
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:38,240
Speaker 2: stop when I was walking down Wilsher Boulevard going to

1457
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:42,040
Speaker 2: a print store or something, and like a little kid goes, hey,

1458
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:44,719
Speaker 2: did you sing on that Jermaine Jackson song?

1459
01:35:44,840 --> 01:35:45,040
Speaker 1: You know?

1460
01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:51,679
Speaker 2: Or whatever? And I remember thinking, I'm going to always

1461
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:53,840
Speaker 2: remember this time. This might be as good as it

1462
01:35:53,880 --> 01:35:56,320
Speaker 2: ever gets, and if it is, I want to I

1463
01:35:56,320 --> 01:35:58,360
Speaker 2: want to remember it forever and enjoy it.

1464
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:04,040
Speaker 1: In that initial period prior to the first breakup and

1465
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:10,720
Speaker 1: you moving into visual entertainment and making music, that did

1466
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 1: you guys make any money?

1467
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:21,919
Speaker 2: Uh? When we signed a record deal, we were concerned

1468
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:29,720
Speaker 2: about that, uh, And we decided we would rather than

1469
01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:32,639
Speaker 2: you know, you'd get your money from the record company

1470
01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:35,360
Speaker 2: and publishers, you know, in big chunks, you know, and

1471
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:38,439
Speaker 2: we said, well, rather than like hand it out to

1472
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:44,840
Speaker 2: everybody at once, we kind of wisely decided we're gonna

1473
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:48,000
Speaker 2: pay ourselves the same amount of money as Los Angeles

1474
01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:50,760
Speaker 2: school teachers get. And that's basically what we did. We

1475
01:36:50,800 --> 01:36:53,800
Speaker 2: gave each other. We gave us ourselves enough so we

1476
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:59,720
Speaker 2: could make our car payments, make our our our rentals,

1477
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:02,040
Speaker 2: you know, for our house, and pay for our food.

1478
01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:06,200
Speaker 2: And uh, we didn't take all the money in one chunk,

1479
01:37:06,240 --> 01:37:08,200
Speaker 2: which a lot of bands did, and then they blew it,

1480
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:12,200
Speaker 2: you know, like like in six months and they'd have nothing.

1481
01:37:12,479 --> 01:37:18,000
Speaker 2: And so we were we never uh you know, we didn't.

1482
01:37:18,040 --> 01:37:20,040
Speaker 2: We weren't the band that went out and bought mansions

1483
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:23,080
Speaker 2: and Cadillacs in the first the first time, you know,

1484
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:27,240
Speaker 2: with our first paycheck. So we were always and we

1485
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:31,320
Speaker 2: always felt like, well, maybe we will never you know,

1486
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:33,880
Speaker 2: maybe it'll never be bigger than this, and so we

1487
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:35,840
Speaker 2: have to be. And the truth of the matter is,

1488
01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:41,200
Speaker 2: you know, it's like, you know, we're not anywhere near

1489
01:37:41,320 --> 01:37:43,519
Speaker 2: like the size of like somebody like the food fighters

1490
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 2: who followed you know later. You know, it's like those

1491
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:50,719
Speaker 2: kind of bands are tight or even so much bigger

1492
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:53,880
Speaker 2: than us and play much bigger venues than us. But

1493
01:37:55,960 --> 01:37:59,160
Speaker 2: you know, I think we kind of I don't know, personally,

1494
01:37:59,200 --> 01:38:01,880
Speaker 2: I'm pretty thanks for what I've gotten to do.

1495
01:38:02,360 --> 01:38:05,200
Speaker 1: Just to make a side comment here, however big the

1496
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:09,679
Speaker 1: Foo fighters are in terms of playing arenas and regenerating revenue,

1497
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:13,839
Speaker 1: they've had less cultural impact than DEVO period.

1498
01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 2: Well I take that as a compliment, thank you.

1499
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:22,639
Speaker 1: So it's beyond the compliment because it's not a mathematical thing.

1500
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:26,479
Speaker 1: It's a conceptual thing. There was a lot of thought

1501
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:30,519
Speaker 1: that went behind DEVO. There was a lot of thought

1502
01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 1: about how the audience would or would not react. There

1503
01:38:34,160 --> 01:38:38,320
Speaker 1: was an art background. It wasn't as simple as let's

1504
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, do verse chorus verse, Let's get all these people,

1505
01:38:41,040 --> 01:38:43,320
Speaker 1: get the company behind it and running up the chart

1506
01:38:43,439 --> 01:38:46,880
Speaker 1: and you know, get guarantees. You know that all comes

1507
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:51,479
Speaker 1: in for everybody. But just jumping you know forward a

1508
01:38:51,479 --> 01:38:56,880
Speaker 1: few steps at this late date, are there devot royalties?

1509
01:39:01,200 --> 01:39:08,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, you know, I don't think it's an an enough.

1510
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:10,600
Speaker 2: We could live off of just the royalties, to be

1511
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:14,799
Speaker 2: honest with you, but but that's why we play shows.

1512
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:18,720
Speaker 2: So we're playing shows this year. I mean we had

1513
01:39:18,760 --> 01:39:22,599
Speaker 2: a few anomalies every now and then. Uh Ridiculousness made

1514
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:26,200
Speaker 2: a deal with us. When they started that they thought

1515
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:28,160
Speaker 2: they were only going to do one season and then

1516
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 2: go away, and then they've done like three hundred episodes

1517
01:39:32,520 --> 01:39:37,040
Speaker 2: and they kind of their lawyers out tricked themselves when

1518
01:39:37,040 --> 01:39:39,640
Speaker 2: they did the deal. And so we've we've gotten like

1519
01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:43,360
Speaker 2: nice payoff off of that show, off of that uh

1520
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:48,080
Speaker 2: uh you know, Royalty Stream. But you know it's like

1521
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:52,679
Speaker 2: for the most part, you know, we're playing, we're going out.

1522
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:55,360
Speaker 2: We're already planning on shows we're gonna play next year,

1523
01:39:55,640 --> 01:39:56,960
Speaker 2: and uh.

1524
01:39:56,640 --> 01:40:01,200
Speaker 1: Well are you going now? You personally, you have a

1525
01:40:01,280 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 1: star studied career as a composer. Are you going out

1526
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:09,559
Speaker 1: for the money? Are you going out because you want

1527
01:40:09,560 --> 01:40:11,800
Speaker 1: to play? What is the motivation because for a long

1528
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 1: time you weren't working live.

1529
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm just I'm enjoying it more and

1530
01:40:22,160 --> 01:40:25,519
Speaker 2: we've I found ways to enjoy it. You know, it's

1531
01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:29,160
Speaker 2: like touring when you start off, you know, like when

1532
01:40:29,800 --> 01:40:32,720
Speaker 2: you know, when you're in your twenties, mid twenties and

1533
01:40:32,880 --> 01:40:35,679
Speaker 2: somebody comes downstairs and goes, oh my god, all these

1534
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:38,839
Speaker 2: people were in my room last night. And they flooded

1535
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:43,080
Speaker 2: the bathroom and the pillows are soaking wet, and blah

1536
01:40:43,080 --> 01:40:45,320
Speaker 2: blah blah, and everybody's laughing. And you go to the

1537
01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:47,759
Speaker 2: car and now it's like when you're in your mid seventies.

1538
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:50,160
Speaker 2: It's like everybody's standing there at the curtain. I go,

1539
01:40:51,720 --> 01:40:53,960
Speaker 2: the car was supposed to be here three minutes ago.

1540
01:40:54,479 --> 01:40:56,559
Speaker 2: You know, it's like everybody's got it. You know, you've

1541
01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:59,360
Speaker 2: already done it, You've been you already know that you're

1542
01:40:59,360 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 2: going to go to you know, Minneapolis tomorrow and you're

1543
01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:08,760
Speaker 2: going to check into a hotel. You're going to have

1544
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:12,160
Speaker 2: an hour or two before you go to soundcheck, and

1545
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:14,600
Speaker 2: then you're at the venue all day and then you

1546
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:16,559
Speaker 2: play your show and then you come back to the

1547
01:41:16,600 --> 01:41:20,120
Speaker 2: hotel and you pack everything up because the next morning

1548
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:24,680
Speaker 2: you're taking off for another city. And so it's not

1549
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:28,640
Speaker 2: as exciting as it was at one time. But I

1550
01:41:28,720 --> 01:41:32,960
Speaker 2: found ways like where I can do both art and

1551
01:41:33,280 --> 01:41:36,080
Speaker 2: I write music. Like I was working on scoring a

1552
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:40,000
Speaker 2: film on our last tour, and that so I was

1553
01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:42,680
Speaker 2: in different cities every day and I'd set up my

1554
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:47,519
Speaker 2: computer and my keyboard and I could I could write

1555
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:49,559
Speaker 2: for a film and that was that was kind of

1556
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:53,679
Speaker 2: taking up my time making it enjoyable. And everybody loves

1557
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:56,120
Speaker 2: the hour and a half you're on stage, you know.

1558
01:41:56,200 --> 01:42:00,360
Speaker 2: The time you're on stage is like, you know, it's

1559
01:42:00,400 --> 01:42:02,120
Speaker 2: kind of like as close as you get to be

1560
01:42:02,160 --> 01:42:04,599
Speaker 2: in twenty five again when you're seventy five, you know,

1561
01:42:05,280 --> 01:42:08,200
Speaker 2: and uh, we enjoy that, and then it's like then

1562
01:42:08,439 --> 01:42:11,799
Speaker 2: you just figure out ways to enjoy the other hours.

1563
01:42:11,920 --> 01:42:15,799
Speaker 2: Jerry has his thing. He he loves food. He's a foodie,

1564
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:22,120
Speaker 2: so he's already booked restaurants and is concerned about if

1565
01:42:22,120 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 2: we're going to get done in time, if there's enough

1566
01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:26,160
Speaker 2: time for him to make it over to the restaurant

1567
01:42:26,160 --> 01:42:28,880
Speaker 2: before it closes, and and he's got his own thing.

1568
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 2: And for me, it's it's I it's like I draw

1569
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:39,599
Speaker 2: on these cards and I've I'm that they're they're they're

1570
01:42:40,160 --> 01:42:43,120
Speaker 2: that that makes me happy. They're they're like my therapy

1571
01:42:43,280 --> 01:42:49,920
Speaker 2: and my simple, inexpensive way to uh to enjoy the world.

1572
01:42:50,840 --> 01:42:58,400
Speaker 1: Have you been in therapy? No, never, I think I'm

1573
01:42:59,240 --> 01:43:02,840
Speaker 1: in entire life, I've never went to a psychiatrist, therapist whatever.

1574
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:05,720
Speaker 2: I think. Yes, I did one time and then it

1575
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:11,439
Speaker 2: was it was she was she did something like she

1576
01:43:11,479 --> 01:43:14,120
Speaker 2: came over while I was sitting on a sofa and

1577
01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:20,679
Speaker 2: she put her knees on my feet and then leaned

1578
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:22,840
Speaker 2: into me and put her arms around my neck. And

1579
01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:25,599
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, I don't know where this is going,

1580
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:31,160
Speaker 2: but this is but it's not my style. So I

1581
01:43:31,240 --> 01:43:32,439
Speaker 2: only went to one session.

1582
01:43:33,160 --> 01:43:35,760
Speaker 1: Why did you go to a therapist? And why did

1583
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:37,519
Speaker 1: you go to see that particular person?

1584
01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:41,760
Speaker 2: God, I don't remember who she came. Oh, you know,

1585
01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:46,360
Speaker 2: it's a doctor I used to go to. And we

1586
01:43:46,360 --> 01:43:49,760
Speaker 2: were just talking about what makes you happy and what

1587
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:53,360
Speaker 2: makes you not happy. And this was like I don't know,

1588
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:56,960
Speaker 2: twenty years ago or something, twenty years ago or something,

1589
01:43:57,840 --> 01:43:59,800
Speaker 2: and he said, well, why don't you go see this there?

1590
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:02,080
Speaker 2: So he just out of the blues suggested I go

1591
01:44:02,120 --> 01:44:03,519
Speaker 2: to a therapist. So I did.

1592
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:09,280
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you're smiling, you're busy, you never get depressed.

1593
01:44:09,439 --> 01:44:11,320
Speaker 1: You see, you're an optimist, you never get depressed, you

1594
01:44:11,360 --> 01:44:13,440
Speaker 1: never get down.

1595
01:44:13,840 --> 01:44:18,080
Speaker 2: Uh, there's things that depressed me. But I'm actually I'm

1596
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:26,639
Speaker 2: I uh, I'm probably well, I think compared to other people.

1597
01:44:26,680 --> 01:44:29,840
Speaker 2: I know, I'm probably a lot less depressed than a

1598
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:32,000
Speaker 2: lot of I do have friends that are depressed and

1599
01:44:32,040 --> 01:44:37,640
Speaker 2: it's that's not a fun thing to be And now

1600
01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:39,920
Speaker 2: I don't I don't think of myself as depressed.

1601
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:53,639
Speaker 1: Okay, so what comes first, the breakup of Devo or

1602
01:44:53,680 --> 01:44:55,200
Speaker 1: your composing career.

1603
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:05,720
Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean in a way, I don't ever

1604
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:13,960
Speaker 2: see Devo breaking up, because you know, we're an idea

1605
01:45:14,400 --> 01:45:17,559
Speaker 2: that we did and that it was. I mean, even

1606
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:22,960
Speaker 2: my composing career is I think it's I think a

1607
01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:25,120
Speaker 2: lot of the way I think about music when I

1608
01:45:25,120 --> 01:45:28,240
Speaker 2: write music for films is the same way I thought

1609
01:45:28,240 --> 01:45:30,800
Speaker 2: about it when I wrote music for Divo. It's just

1610
01:45:31,360 --> 01:45:38,920
Speaker 2: you have different things you're taking into consideration. So I

1611
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:46,200
Speaker 2: don't know, it's like composing for films. Yeah, that probably

1612
01:45:46,200 --> 01:45:49,400
Speaker 2: would go first. I'm pretty sure it would. I think

1613
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:51,280
Speaker 2: Devo would be around for a long time.

1614
01:45:53,439 --> 01:46:00,840
Speaker 1: Okay. You had this crazy bout with COVID nineteen. Tell

1615
01:46:00,920 --> 01:46:01,559
Speaker 1: us about it.

1616
01:46:02,640 --> 01:46:06,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was a guinea pig for COVID when

1617
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:10,160
Speaker 2: it first happened. I somehow signed up to be one

1618
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:12,800
Speaker 2: of the first people to get it, and they didn't

1619
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:14,880
Speaker 2: have any treatment for it. The only thing they had

1620
01:46:14,920 --> 01:46:17,280
Speaker 2: is they thought they'd put people on ventilators. Well, I

1621
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:19,880
Speaker 2: have really strong lungs. There was no reason to put

1622
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:24,840
Speaker 2: me on a ventilator, but they did, and somehow in

1623
01:46:24,880 --> 01:46:28,120
Speaker 2: the process. In the first day or so, when they

1624
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:33,760
Speaker 2: put this tube down my throat, I got hit in

1625
01:46:33,800 --> 01:46:37,479
Speaker 2: the eye. My eyes were closed, so I didn't see

1626
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:40,639
Speaker 2: it happened, but I got hit in the eye and

1627
01:46:41,000 --> 01:46:42,760
Speaker 2: it hurt so bad. I pulled the tube out of

1628
01:46:42,760 --> 01:46:45,400
Speaker 2: my throat. I said, what did you do to my eye?

1629
01:46:45,560 --> 01:46:48,360
Speaker 2: And I was looking at a woman who had a

1630
01:46:48,439 --> 01:46:52,880
Speaker 2: plastic faceguard on, and I heard a man that I

1631
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:55,960
Speaker 2: couldn't see that was like moving me like in my bed,

1632
01:46:56,080 --> 01:46:58,599
Speaker 2: probably just you know, moving you around like a sack

1633
01:46:58,600 --> 01:47:05,519
Speaker 2: of potatoes, he said, sedate him and whatever drug they

1634
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:08,479
Speaker 2: put me on, I remember before I passed out, I went, hey,

1635
01:47:08,520 --> 01:47:13,519
Speaker 2: this is pretty great. And I don't know what it was.

1636
01:47:13,560 --> 01:47:16,760
Speaker 2: But I never take drugs. I never was I never

1637
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:20,120
Speaker 2: really got into drugs. I don't think I even drank

1638
01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:27,960
Speaker 2: coffee till I was in my forties. And so they

1639
01:47:29,360 --> 01:47:31,920
Speaker 2: they kept me there way too long. They kept me

1640
01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:34,639
Speaker 2: there for like twenty days before they let me out,

1641
01:47:34,920 --> 01:47:37,000
Speaker 2: and they tried to talk my wife into letting them

1642
01:47:37,040 --> 01:47:41,160
Speaker 2: put me in a coma. And I feel like The

1643
01:47:41,160 --> 01:47:43,640
Speaker 2: only reason they did that was because they sent a

1644
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:47,280
Speaker 2: lawyer down after they woke me up, after they gave

1645
01:47:47,320 --> 01:47:51,519
Speaker 2: me that first sedation. They woke me up, and this

1646
01:47:51,640 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 2: lawyer is like writing things down, saying, so, what are

1647
01:47:54,200 --> 01:47:56,320
Speaker 2: you saying about your eye? And I go, I don't know,

1648
01:47:56,400 --> 01:47:59,760
Speaker 2: but my eye's not working and it was totally red

1649
01:48:00,040 --> 01:48:05,480
Speaker 2: bloated my eyeball basically, so I to this day it's like, ironically,

1650
01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:11,360
Speaker 2: my vision in that eye is similar to my vision

1651
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:13,840
Speaker 2: when I was the first eight years of my life

1652
01:48:17,360 --> 01:48:22,479
Speaker 2: before I had glasses. And it's kind of interesting because

1653
01:48:22,479 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 2: I have one eye like that and then I have

1654
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:29,240
Speaker 2: one eye that's twenty twenty. But they, you know, they

1655
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:34,320
Speaker 2: just they finally let me out, thankfully, and I've been

1656
01:48:34,800 --> 01:48:37,880
Speaker 2: you know, it's created problems for me, both for singing.

1657
01:48:39,960 --> 01:48:41,800
Speaker 2: There's a couple notes that are hard to sing, but

1658
01:48:41,840 --> 01:48:44,720
Speaker 2: I think they're coming back. I think everything's eventually coming back.

1659
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,400
Speaker 2: I kind of changed some of the melodies and some

1660
01:48:47,479 --> 01:48:53,519
Speaker 2: of our songs to fit where I can where I

1661
01:48:53,520 --> 01:48:56,960
Speaker 2: can sing, and nobody notices it. Really, I mean, it's

1662
01:48:57,000 --> 01:49:00,280
Speaker 2: not like Devo Hat, you know, it's not like Harbor

1663
01:49:00,320 --> 01:49:03,320
Speaker 2: Streisan or something, you know, or Pavaratti. You know, it's like,

1664
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:06,040
Speaker 2: you know, I did a lot of ranting when I

1665
01:49:06,120 --> 01:49:09,960
Speaker 2: was singing, so so it kind of it's kind of

1666
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:14,840
Speaker 2: all right. The vision is still a problem. It's like

1667
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:18,680
Speaker 2: it's like hard for me to work with computers for

1668
01:49:19,040 --> 01:49:23,320
Speaker 2: long periods of time. My eyes get really tired. But yeah,

1669
01:49:23,320 --> 01:49:27,000
Speaker 2: that was it. That was my and I think finally

1670
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:29,640
Speaker 2: when they did try a drug out on me, it

1671
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:33,240
Speaker 2: was the one that they ended up using on Trump

1672
01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:37,599
Speaker 2: a year later or so. So I was a guinea

1673
01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:38,679
Speaker 2: pig for Donald Trump.

1674
01:49:38,720 --> 01:49:42,640
Speaker 1: I guess, so the notes you lost, that's because you

1675
01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:50,120
Speaker 1: were intobated. Yeah. I saw a picture of my vocal

1676
01:49:50,160 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 1: cords like about eight or nine years before that, when

1677
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:59,599
Speaker 1: Devo played somewhere some convention hall or some big place

1678
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:02,240
Speaker 1: and Enver and and they had a they had a

1679
01:50:02,320 --> 01:50:08,200
Speaker 1: vocal doctor, and they saw me coughing because we'd been

1680
01:50:08,200 --> 01:50:11,120
Speaker 1: playing every night and I was coughing at sound check.

1681
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:14,439
Speaker 1: And after sound check, the promoter said, hey, why don't

1682
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:17,080
Speaker 1: you go check out? Why don't you go see the doctor?

1683
01:50:17,240 --> 01:50:18,880
Speaker 1: And I went and saw him, and while we're talking,

1684
01:50:19,320 --> 01:50:21,559
Speaker 1: he put a camera up my nose, down into my

1685
01:50:22,320 --> 01:50:28,000
Speaker 1: throat and he said, oh, you have a acid reflux,

1686
01:50:28,120 --> 01:50:30,280
Speaker 1: I think. And so I was like, oh, what do

1687
01:50:30,320 --> 01:50:30,840
Speaker 1: you do about that?

1688
01:50:30,920 --> 01:50:33,639
Speaker 2: And he says, when he just gave me some ideas

1689
01:50:33,640 --> 01:50:37,080
Speaker 2: on how to you know, reduce acid reflux. But I

1690
01:50:37,080 --> 01:50:39,680
Speaker 2: saw what my vocal cords looked like, and they were perfect.

1691
01:50:39,920 --> 01:50:43,640
Speaker 2: They were like, you know, like this shape and you know,

1692
01:50:43,960 --> 01:50:47,639
Speaker 2: and they were they were perfect. And then when after

1693
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:51,439
Speaker 2: I was in the hospital with COVID, I went and

1694
01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:55,760
Speaker 2: I saw my vocal chords. They did it again to

1695
01:50:55,840 --> 01:50:58,519
Speaker 2: look because I told him I was having problems singing,

1696
01:50:59,120 --> 01:51:00,960
Speaker 2: and they looked at my vocal chords and there was

1697
01:51:01,040 --> 01:51:05,160
Speaker 2: a like a terror, you know, like like a scar

1698
01:51:05,320 --> 01:51:12,400
Speaker 2: tissue about halfway through on one side. And I don't know,

1699
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:16,280
Speaker 2: I'm slowly getting that back. My singing in the in

1700
01:51:16,520 --> 01:51:21,040
Speaker 2: those notes is slowly coming back. So that's the good news.

1701
01:51:21,320 --> 01:51:27,360
Speaker 1: Okay, when you are on stage, you're amped up. I

1702
01:51:27,360 --> 01:51:30,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't say you're playing a character, but you're tell there's

1703
01:51:30,280 --> 01:51:35,280
Speaker 1: a lot of energy different from the average act. Do

1704
01:51:35,360 --> 01:51:37,760
Speaker 1: you have to get yourself in that space or you

1705
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:40,639
Speaker 1: just go on stage and you can get there?

1706
01:51:42,080 --> 01:51:44,120
Speaker 2: You know, that's kind of us. We kind of do

1707
01:51:44,280 --> 01:51:47,400
Speaker 2: that anyhow, you know, it's like our drummer has to.

1708
01:51:48,040 --> 01:51:49,479
Speaker 2: He sits there in the other room, and he's like

1709
01:51:49,520 --> 01:51:54,599
Speaker 2: going on a on a on a you know, practice pad,

1710
01:51:55,040 --> 01:51:57,720
Speaker 2: you know, before he goes out on stage. And and

1711
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:00,599
Speaker 2: he's got the most physical job of all of us,

1712
01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:03,439
Speaker 2: so he's doing that. And then afterwards he soaks his

1713
01:52:03,560 --> 01:52:07,200
Speaker 2: arms and epsom salt water and and he's got a

1714
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:08,800
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff he has to do. But we're all

1715
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:13,800
Speaker 2: kind of we're just kind of programmed. We are who

1716
01:52:13,840 --> 01:52:16,920
Speaker 2: we are, you know, and it's like we come out

1717
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:17,360
Speaker 2: and do it.

1718
01:52:19,439 --> 01:52:22,320
Speaker 1: Okay. You talk about the era when you were first

1719
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:26,320
Speaker 1: touring in the twenty people in your hotel room. You know,

1720
01:52:27,120 --> 01:52:29,720
Speaker 1: you're from an era with the sex drugs in rock

1721
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:34,679
Speaker 1: and roll. To what degree did you participate in that stuff?

1722
01:52:37,280 --> 01:52:44,240
Speaker 2: Well, now, the drug thing I was never interested in. Uh,

1723
01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:52,719
Speaker 2: the sex I liked and but but it wasn't long

1724
01:52:52,800 --> 01:52:56,960
Speaker 2: after we, you know, became popular. Wasn't it long after

1725
01:52:57,000 --> 01:53:02,599
Speaker 2: whip it before people would say, hey, Mark Harris. Harris

1726
01:53:02,680 --> 01:53:06,760
Speaker 2: just went to the to the doctor with I thought

1727
01:53:06,760 --> 01:53:09,439
Speaker 2: he had the flu. He checked into the hospital on Friday,

1728
01:53:09,479 --> 01:53:12,720
Speaker 2: and it would be Monday morning. He says, he died yesterday.

1729
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:17,080
Speaker 2: Like what why'd he died of the flu. And this

1730
01:53:17,320 --> 01:53:19,880
Speaker 2: was like eighty one or eighty two. It was the

1731
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:23,639
Speaker 2: beginning of aides. So we were at the very last

1732
01:53:23,800 --> 01:53:27,479
Speaker 2: years of the sex, drugs and rock and roll by

1733
01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:31,639
Speaker 2: the by eighty two eighty three, it's like you were.

1734
01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:35,600
Speaker 2: You had to be really careful who you and you

1735
01:53:35,640 --> 01:53:37,400
Speaker 2: know who who you let in your room and it

1736
01:53:37,880 --> 01:53:40,559
Speaker 2: but it is crazy. There was a time where people

1737
01:53:40,600 --> 01:53:43,600
Speaker 2: were like just knocking on your hotel room door or

1738
01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:47,000
Speaker 2: sticking pictures of themselves underneath the door asking you to

1739
01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:50,600
Speaker 2: let him in. It was a We were part of

1740
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:54,400
Speaker 2: that crazy era for a while. Unlucky none of us

1741
01:53:54,479 --> 01:53:55,200
Speaker 2: ever got sick.

1742
01:53:56,320 --> 01:53:59,920
Speaker 1: And so what's your everyday life like? Are you working

1743
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:05,280
Speaker 1: all the time, you had contact with friends, you watch

1744
01:54:05,320 --> 01:54:08,000
Speaker 1: in streaming television? What's it like?

1745
01:54:09,240 --> 01:54:12,240
Speaker 2: Well, now it's sex, drugs and rock and roll every day. No,

1746
01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:19,280
Speaker 2: I get up. My wife has four small dogs and

1747
01:54:19,400 --> 01:54:24,719
Speaker 2: we deal with that. And right now we're fortunate enough

1748
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:29,479
Speaker 2: that our one daughter, who is an artist, is staying

1749
01:54:29,479 --> 01:54:32,200
Speaker 2: at our house for a little while, so we're enjoying

1750
01:54:32,240 --> 01:54:37,040
Speaker 2: that that she's around. But I eventually I drive down

1751
01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:41,440
Speaker 2: the hill and I check into the green round building

1752
01:54:41,480 --> 01:54:46,120
Speaker 2: on Sunset Strip. And I write music every day, and

1753
01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:53,800
Speaker 2: I do artwork every day. And my you know, my

1754
01:54:53,920 --> 01:54:57,720
Speaker 2: big thing is grocery shopping. I hate to say it,

1755
01:54:57,760 --> 01:55:01,680
Speaker 2: but it's like I'll I'll go to maybe three grocery

1756
01:55:01,720 --> 01:55:06,440
Speaker 2: stores to get the different things that we want for

1757
01:55:06,480 --> 01:55:09,520
Speaker 2: dinner that night, because there's there's a one grocery store

1758
01:55:09,520 --> 01:55:14,400
Speaker 2: that has the best produce and one that has other

1759
01:55:14,480 --> 01:55:16,640
Speaker 2: things that we really that my kids like or my

1760
01:55:16,680 --> 01:55:21,680
Speaker 2: wife likes a lot, and and so I kinda I

1761
01:55:21,760 --> 01:55:25,960
Speaker 2: kind of enjoy that. I don't really enjoy clothing shopping anymore.

1762
01:55:26,000 --> 01:55:28,360
Speaker 2: It's like I'm not into fashion that much.

1763
01:55:28,400 --> 01:55:28,960
Speaker 1: I used to be.

1764
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:31,360
Speaker 2: At one time, I was kind of really I was

1765
01:55:31,400 --> 01:55:34,880
Speaker 2: really intrigued with what was going on in the early

1766
01:55:34,960 --> 01:55:39,360
Speaker 2: eighties in Japan and in Europe, and but also the

1767
01:55:40,200 --> 01:55:45,400
Speaker 2: I liked just what designers were doing. And then then

1768
01:55:45,440 --> 01:55:50,560
Speaker 2: it went into the two low low tech, you know,

1769
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:55,400
Speaker 2: like jeans and T shirts and and sweaters, and like

1770
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:58,839
Speaker 2: now it doesn't matter if you're a billionaire or a lawyer,

1771
01:55:59,120 --> 01:56:02,600
Speaker 2: or a or a kid in high school or you're

1772
01:56:02,680 --> 01:56:05,560
Speaker 2: a school teacher. Everybody kind of wears the same thing

1773
01:56:05,680 --> 01:56:08,760
Speaker 2: more than they ever did. It's pretty rare to see

1774
01:56:08,800 --> 01:56:13,320
Speaker 2: somebody walking around, you know, in a suit, or at

1775
01:56:13,400 --> 01:56:17,320
Speaker 2: least they still do. But you know, it's it's it's

1776
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:21,680
Speaker 2: that number's gone down, and then there's really fashion is

1777
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:25,160
Speaker 2: just kind of at a strange place. I'm hoping that

1778
01:56:25,440 --> 01:56:27,600
Speaker 2: that all the craziness that's going on now is going

1779
01:56:27,640 --> 01:56:35,320
Speaker 2: to inspire artists and inspire stylists and inspire creative people

1780
01:56:35,520 --> 01:56:36,360
Speaker 2: in every walk.

1781
01:56:37,080 --> 01:56:40,400
Speaker 1: So, who knows what are the three grocery stores?

1782
01:56:45,120 --> 01:56:47,680
Speaker 2: Well, there's probably five, if I want to get serious

1783
01:56:47,680 --> 01:56:52,960
Speaker 2: about the numbers, because they there's five or six, but

1784
01:56:54,080 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 2: they're just they're a couple of them are in West Hollywood,

1785
01:56:58,600 --> 01:57:01,880
Speaker 2: A couple of them are in Hollywood, Good h I

1786
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:04,520
Speaker 2: mostly just there's one in Beverly Hills and then they

1787
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:08,720
Speaker 2: all just kind of it just depends on what we're eating.

1788
01:57:09,160 --> 01:57:11,160
Speaker 1: So the Bristol Farms in Beverly.

1789
01:57:10,880 --> 01:57:14,040
Speaker 2: Hills, yeah, oh they're okay, okay.

1790
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:17,320
Speaker 1: And does Whole Foods or Arawans show up in any

1791
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 1: of this shopping.

1792
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:24,560
Speaker 2: Of course, Erewon's and uh, well and there's yeah there

1793
01:57:24,600 --> 01:57:29,000
Speaker 2: there there's more. There's a Gelson's and uh there's one

1794
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:32,600
Speaker 2: called Mothers that I just uh, it's a little further away,

1795
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:42,880
Speaker 2: but it has different kinds of of My wife likes likes,

1796
01:57:43,040 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 2: uh herbal, herbal medicinal things, and so they seem to

1797
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:54,360
Speaker 2: have a different, uh they have a different level of

1798
01:57:54,360 --> 01:57:58,320
Speaker 2: stuff than than arawans or sprouts. They're they're all, they're

1799
01:57:58,360 --> 01:58:00,040
Speaker 2: all different and they.

1800
01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:04,440
Speaker 1: As far as the mainstream, the Ralphs, the VODs, you

1801
01:58:04,480 --> 01:58:06,920
Speaker 1: ever go there, you have an opinion on those.

1802
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:13,600
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean Ralphs has there's these I found

1803
01:58:13,600 --> 01:58:16,720
Speaker 2: out about something. I think it's called Kingston. I don't

1804
01:58:16,760 --> 01:58:18,880
Speaker 2: know if that's what it is, but they make these

1805
01:58:19,000 --> 01:58:23,560
Speaker 2: foil bags you can barbecue things in, and it makes

1806
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:29,080
Speaker 2: barbecuing on an outdoor grill so easy. And so if

1807
01:58:29,120 --> 01:58:31,240
Speaker 2: we're doing a barbecue, I have to stop, buy a

1808
01:58:31,320 --> 01:58:32,720
Speaker 2: Ralphs and grab a bunch of those.

1809
01:58:33,840 --> 01:58:38,040
Speaker 1: So you're in your office, you go home for dinner

1810
01:58:38,080 --> 01:58:38,760
Speaker 1: every night.

1811
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:44,040
Speaker 2: Most of the time. I mean, you know, we eat

1812
01:58:44,080 --> 01:58:46,920
Speaker 2: out a lot, and then we also we get lazy

1813
01:58:46,960 --> 01:58:50,520
Speaker 2: and we order in too, So it all happens.

1814
01:58:50,680 --> 01:58:54,800
Speaker 1: I guess you know those hours after work, what are

1815
01:58:54,840 --> 01:58:59,360
Speaker 1: you filling them with other than eating working on art?

1816
01:58:59,480 --> 01:59:03,240
Speaker 2: You show me, yeah, working on it. If I told

1817
01:59:03,280 --> 01:59:08,240
Speaker 2: you that cards that size since the early seventies to now.

1818
01:59:09,920 --> 01:59:12,280
Speaker 2: Every time I get a hundred done, you know, you

1819
01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:13,880
Speaker 2: do them one at a time, and every time I

1820
01:59:13,920 --> 01:59:19,400
Speaker 2: finish one hundred, I put them in these read archival

1821
01:59:19,480 --> 01:59:24,200
Speaker 2: books that they've been making ever since the sixties. Was

1822
01:59:24,280 --> 01:59:28,000
Speaker 2: at I was a stamp nerd, a stamp collector nerd

1823
01:59:28,040 --> 01:59:31,640
Speaker 2: when I was in high school, So I knew that

1824
01:59:31,720 --> 01:59:35,280
Speaker 2: they had these books that held postcards. And so when

1825
01:59:35,280 --> 01:59:37,080
Speaker 2: I was getting a stack of postcards, I thought, well,

1826
01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:39,440
Speaker 2: I better get a book to put them in. They

1827
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:41,960
Speaker 2: still make that same book all these years later, at

1828
01:59:42,000 --> 01:59:45,160
Speaker 2: the exact same book, archival book. And so I've been

1829
01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:49,640
Speaker 2: I think I'm up to around seven hundred and fifty

1830
01:59:49,760 --> 01:59:54,640
Speaker 2: of these books that each have one hundred pieces of art,

1831
01:59:55,120 --> 02:00:02,160
Speaker 2: pieces of poetry, pieces of collage, were sketches, all different

1832
02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:02,880
Speaker 2: kinds of things.

1833
02:00:11,080 --> 02:00:16,200
Speaker 1: Okay, my favorite Devot album is Do Traditionalists. That's the

1834
02:00:16,240 --> 02:00:20,920
Speaker 1: one where suddenly you're producing it yourself. But it sounds

1835
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:22,920
Speaker 1: you know, lots of bands produce themselves, they go off

1836
02:00:22,960 --> 02:00:27,800
Speaker 1: the rails. So what was it like producing yourself as

1837
02:00:27,840 --> 02:00:29,680
Speaker 1: opposed to dealing with these other people?

1838
02:00:31,760 --> 02:00:38,480
Speaker 2: In some ways, it was a lot better because you know,

1839
02:00:41,040 --> 02:00:44,160
Speaker 2: he was I think he was unprepared for us, and

1840
02:00:44,200 --> 02:00:47,480
Speaker 2: we were kind of unprepared for him. He really wanted

1841
02:00:47,520 --> 02:00:50,120
Speaker 2: to I think he wanted to make a bigger aesthetic,

1842
02:00:52,160 --> 02:00:59,840
Speaker 2: have a bigger aesthetic input than he got. About five

1843
02:01:00,080 --> 02:01:03,920
Speaker 2: years ago, I was transferring over the twenty four tracks

1844
02:01:04,000 --> 02:01:08,720
Speaker 2: that we had recorded with him to digital, and I'm

1845
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:12,120
Speaker 2: looking at He's got his beautiful handwriting of all because

1846
02:01:12,160 --> 02:01:14,440
Speaker 2: it was before automation when we did this album in

1847
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:17,960
Speaker 2: seventy eight. It was like his beautiful handwriting of all

1848
02:01:17,960 --> 02:01:20,840
Speaker 2: the eqs and all the effects and everything. But I'm

1849
02:01:20,880 --> 02:01:24,200
Speaker 2: looking at I'm seeing things like there's channels and it

1850
02:01:24,240 --> 02:01:29,120
Speaker 2: says Brian's guitar part. Then I see another channel called

1851
02:01:29,840 --> 02:01:34,640
Speaker 2: David's vocals, meaning David Bowie. And I'd see these on

1852
02:01:34,840 --> 02:01:37,520
Speaker 2: like almost every single track. There were all these, and

1853
02:01:37,560 --> 02:01:41,160
Speaker 2: then I remembered that when we were mixing them, he

1854
02:01:41,200 --> 02:01:44,320
Speaker 2: would he was like trying to put you know, other

1855
02:01:44,440 --> 02:01:49,280
Speaker 2: things into the songs, you know, synth parts, and and

1856
02:01:49,920 --> 02:01:53,440
Speaker 2: we did use some of it. I mean, we did

1857
02:01:53,560 --> 02:01:58,760
Speaker 2: use David and Brian's backup vocals on Uncontrollable Urge, for instance,

1858
02:01:59,360 --> 02:02:06,240
Speaker 2: and he put like monkey chants in Chockohomo and we

1859
02:02:06,360 --> 02:02:08,840
Speaker 2: tried to like make a tape of that and then

1860
02:02:09,080 --> 02:02:11,200
Speaker 2: recreate it live, and it was impossible because it was

1861
02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:14,960
Speaker 2: back before the days of midy and so there was

1862
02:02:15,160 --> 02:02:17,560
Speaker 2: really no way to sync up with you know. We

1863
02:02:17,560 --> 02:02:20,800
Speaker 2: were playing in seven four time, you know, and then

1864
02:02:21,120 --> 02:02:22,960
Speaker 2: switching over to four four time, and there was just

1865
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:25,000
Speaker 2: no way to get it to match exactly. It always

1866
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:28,200
Speaker 2: sounded slightly ugly. So we didn't really do that, but

1867
02:02:29,240 --> 02:02:31,640
Speaker 2: he said he he once said he was kind of

1868
02:02:31,720 --> 02:02:34,040
Speaker 2: unprepared to work with us and didn't know how to

1869
02:02:34,080 --> 02:02:38,040
Speaker 2: talk about it. So I was doing things like, you know,

1870
02:02:38,200 --> 02:02:41,040
Speaker 2: we'd hit record for recording from the twenty four track

1871
02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:44,880
Speaker 2: over to the two track stereo master, and everybody'd be

1872
02:02:44,920 --> 02:02:47,240
Speaker 2: looking straight ahead at the speakers, but I'd be standing

1873
02:02:47,240 --> 02:02:49,200
Speaker 2: next to Brian and I'd just reach up and pull

1874
02:02:49,320 --> 02:02:53,960
Speaker 2: down the tracks that said Brian guitar and David vocals

1875
02:02:54,480 --> 02:02:56,760
Speaker 2: and just keeps looking straight ahead and out of my

1876
02:02:56,800 --> 02:02:58,960
Speaker 2: peripheral vision, I could see his head snap and look

1877
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:01,640
Speaker 2: at me. But he never said anything. He never challenged

1878
02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:06,680
Speaker 2: me about it, and so that was odd. And but

1879
02:03:06,720 --> 02:03:09,040
Speaker 2: Bob Martyloff was great to work with. I have to say,

1880
02:03:09,080 --> 02:03:10,640
Speaker 2: he was really great and he taught us a lot

1881
02:03:10,680 --> 02:03:16,360
Speaker 2: about engineering that I hadn't expected. And he also his

1882
02:03:16,520 --> 02:03:20,480
Speaker 2: concept about how to be a producer was different than

1883
02:03:20,520 --> 02:03:23,400
Speaker 2: a lot of people. It's definitely different than Ken Scott,

1884
02:03:23,440 --> 02:03:28,800
Speaker 2: for instance, or or Roy Thomas Baker. So so it

1885
02:03:28,840 --> 02:03:33,560
Speaker 2: was it was I really like him. He keeps saying,

1886
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:35,920
Speaker 2: we mark, we have to do something again, and I'm like,

1887
02:03:36,680 --> 02:03:38,800
Speaker 2: you never know, Bob, you never it could happen.

1888
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:41,520
Speaker 1: So what was his philosophy of production that was different?

1889
02:03:42,840 --> 02:03:47,520
Speaker 2: Well, he understood that, you know, and this was back

1890
02:03:47,600 --> 02:03:51,280
Speaker 2: before automation, so he realized that there were problems like

1891
02:03:51,320 --> 02:03:53,640
Speaker 2: if you did a synth sound or a guitar sound

1892
02:03:54,160 --> 02:03:57,840
Speaker 2: and you record it with just the drums or something,

1893
02:03:58,120 --> 02:04:00,760
Speaker 2: or everybody records as you start mixed at netting and

1894
02:04:00,880 --> 02:04:04,080
Speaker 2: vocals and backups and all these things, what you want

1895
02:04:04,080 --> 02:04:12,480
Speaker 2: that guitar bass to sound like changes And he did this.

1896
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:14,880
Speaker 2: He taught us this way to record, where you put

1897
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:20,560
Speaker 2: your you would record your like a bass or a

1898
02:04:20,600 --> 02:04:24,080
Speaker 2: guitar into two different You'd send a line into two

1899
02:04:24,080 --> 02:04:28,240
Speaker 2: different rooms, and you'd record it over two different amplifiers

1900
02:04:28,960 --> 02:04:31,920
Speaker 2: so that it sounded totally different in both rooms. And

1901
02:04:31,960 --> 02:04:34,560
Speaker 2: then you'd have a direct in also, so you could always,

1902
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:38,080
Speaker 2: you know, go back and use the original guitar sound

1903
02:04:38,160 --> 02:04:44,040
Speaker 2: to adjust that sound. And he was really empathetic. He

1904
02:04:44,120 --> 02:04:47,560
Speaker 2: was a very empathetic producer. I would recommend him for

1905
02:04:47,600 --> 02:04:51,080
Speaker 2: anybody that was looking for somebody like that. He was

1906
02:04:51,280 --> 02:04:54,240
Speaker 2: very easy to work with and he was always he

1907
02:04:54,280 --> 02:04:55,760
Speaker 2: had a good attitude about things.

1908
02:04:56,160 --> 02:05:00,400
Speaker 1: He was. He was very optimist and a hotted Tony

1909
02:05:00,480 --> 02:05:05,280
Speaker 1: Basil end up recording It's a Different Name and her albums,

1910
02:05:05,320 --> 02:05:08,400
Speaker 1: you got a problem. How did that happen?

1911
02:05:09,360 --> 02:05:11,120
Speaker 2: She was one of the first people we met when

1912
02:05:11,160 --> 02:05:16,000
Speaker 2: we came out to California. Uh. I was kind of

1913
02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:20,120
Speaker 2: really interested in all the all the actors, some older films.

1914
02:05:20,280 --> 02:05:24,400
Speaker 2: I was. When I got a chance to meet Dean Stockwell,

1915
02:05:24,520 --> 02:05:27,280
Speaker 2: it was totally fascinating to me to meet him and

1916
02:05:27,320 --> 02:05:29,720
Speaker 2: to think of him as as a little guy, you know,

1917
02:05:30,480 --> 02:05:33,640
Speaker 2: as an actor, and seeing him on screen and then

1918
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:36,760
Speaker 2: seeing him in uh blue velvet and stuff, and and

1919
02:05:36,880 --> 02:05:42,800
Speaker 2: uh Dennis Hopper and Russ Tamblin people like that. I

1920
02:05:42,840 --> 02:05:45,560
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed joined them and they all had different

1921
02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:50,560
Speaker 2: personalities and they had all done different films, and you know,

1922
02:05:52,440 --> 02:05:56,160
Speaker 2: I liked hanging out with him, and Tony was Dean

1923
02:05:56,200 --> 02:06:01,160
Speaker 2: Stockwell's girlfriend at the time, and then somehow her and

1924
02:06:01,240 --> 02:06:06,200
Speaker 2: Jerry started kind of they hit it off and and

1925
02:06:06,560 --> 02:06:09,480
Speaker 2: she was one of the early fans of Devo out in.

1926
02:06:11,320 --> 02:06:11,480
Speaker 1: L A.

1927
02:06:11,800 --> 02:06:14,960
Speaker 2: And I think I'm correct that she introduced us to

1928
02:06:16,480 --> 02:06:20,120
Speaker 2: Iggy Pop. Well, well, you know what, Iggy Pop knew

1929
02:06:20,120 --> 02:06:23,520
Speaker 2: who we were, because we had given David Bowie some uh,

1930
02:06:24,080 --> 02:06:27,880
Speaker 2: some demo cassettes when he when he was playing an

1931
02:06:27,880 --> 02:06:30,520
Speaker 2: Iggy's band after they did the first time I think

1932
02:06:30,520 --> 02:06:34,120
Speaker 2: it was first one was the Idiot, uh and and

1933
02:06:34,360 --> 02:06:35,960
Speaker 2: then he went out on tour with him, and so

1934
02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:39,080
Speaker 2: he was one of the people that I thought, if

1935
02:06:39,080 --> 02:06:41,360
Speaker 2: I was going to have a producer, I'd want it

1936
02:06:41,360 --> 02:06:44,800
Speaker 2: to be either Brian Eno or David Bowie. So we

1937
02:06:44,880 --> 02:06:48,640
Speaker 2: got those tapes to them to him and Iggy. When

1938
02:06:48,680 --> 02:06:51,320
Speaker 2: they went back to Germany to record LUs for Life,

1939
02:06:51,600 --> 02:06:55,280
Speaker 2: h Iggy was digging through a suitcase full of demo

1940
02:06:55,360 --> 02:06:58,040
Speaker 2: tapes and pulled the Devo one out and they listened

1941
02:06:58,040 --> 02:07:01,280
Speaker 2: to it and they all were laughing. They said, this

1942
02:07:01,320 --> 02:07:06,840
Speaker 2: isn't a real band and uh. And he says that

1943
02:07:06,840 --> 02:07:08,600
Speaker 2: that some of the a couple of days while they

1944
02:07:08,600 --> 02:07:11,680
Speaker 2: were recording. They would just start off the day with, uh,

1945
02:07:11,800 --> 02:07:16,040
Speaker 2: you know, hunting Tony Sayles and David and Iggy jamming

1946
02:07:16,240 --> 02:07:22,520
Speaker 2: on Devo songs before like uncontrollable urgent stuff because and

1947
02:07:22,520 --> 02:07:27,120
Speaker 2: and so. Anyhow, so she told Iggy because they were friends,

1948
02:07:27,200 --> 02:07:30,200
Speaker 2: I guess through Bowie. Uh she told When Iggy came

1949
02:07:30,200 --> 02:07:32,240
Speaker 2: out to stay in l A for a while, she said, Hey,

1950
02:07:32,520 --> 02:07:35,120
Speaker 2: Devo's playing this next weekend, you got to come see

1951
02:07:35,160 --> 02:07:38,960
Speaker 2: him with me, and so so she she brought uh

1952
02:07:39,080 --> 02:07:44,760
Speaker 2: Iggy over to see us, and uh, that's that's kind

1953
02:07:44,760 --> 02:07:46,400
Speaker 2: of how that happened.

1954
02:07:46,680 --> 02:07:49,200
Speaker 1: Do you care about Devo's legacy or not?

1955
02:07:51,080 --> 02:07:57,160
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you know, I think one of the things

1956
02:07:57,240 --> 02:08:00,920
Speaker 2: unique about Devo. You know, I would never say I

1957
02:08:01,040 --> 02:08:04,200
Speaker 2: was the singer that ninety percent of the singers that

1958
02:08:04,320 --> 02:08:08,040
Speaker 2: sing in bands, you know, at the same time as me.

1959
02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:10,800
Speaker 2: I would never say that Jerry could play bass as

1960
02:08:10,840 --> 02:08:13,400
Speaker 2: good as ninety percent of the bass player ninety five

1961
02:08:13,440 --> 02:08:16,240
Speaker 2: percent of the bass players that were putting out records

1962
02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:21,440
Speaker 2: at that time. But I would say that by being

1963
02:08:21,560 --> 02:08:31,400
Speaker 2: artists and being conceptualists and thinking about our music from

1964
02:08:31,560 --> 02:08:36,640
Speaker 2: a totally different angle than most bands ever, did I

1965
02:08:36,720 --> 02:08:39,960
Speaker 2: think I think it gave people. I think it gives

1966
02:08:40,000 --> 02:08:44,720
Speaker 2: us reason to be to be remembered, to have a

1967
02:08:44,800 --> 02:08:52,200
Speaker 2: legacy to because people can think differently about how and

1968
02:08:52,240 --> 02:08:54,640
Speaker 2: why you do a band. I mean, all the bands

1969
02:08:55,200 --> 02:08:57,720
Speaker 2: when we were first doing it, it was all sex,

1970
02:08:57,800 --> 02:08:59,520
Speaker 2: drugs and rock and roll. Yeah, you know, it was

1971
02:08:59,560 --> 02:09:04,720
Speaker 2: like I'm snorting whiskey and drinking cocaine. Think I'm going

1972
02:09:04,800 --> 02:09:06,640
Speaker 2: to go in saying, you know, that's what rock and

1973
02:09:06,720 --> 02:09:09,400
Speaker 2: roll was when we first got into it, and and

1974
02:09:09,440 --> 02:09:13,360
Speaker 2: we would already missed you know, we already missed all

1975
02:09:13,360 --> 02:09:17,280
Speaker 2: the artists that were like you know, like even you know,

1976
02:09:17,480 --> 02:09:21,200
Speaker 2: like uh one, two three, what are we fighting for?

1977
02:09:21,320 --> 02:09:23,960
Speaker 2: You know, even stuff like that was gone after the

1978
02:09:24,480 --> 02:09:28,360
Speaker 2: after the government, you know, like shut down all the protests.

1979
02:09:28,800 --> 02:09:33,720
Speaker 2: It's like things got really strange after nineteen seventy one,

1980
02:09:33,800 --> 02:09:38,120
Speaker 2: and and music pop, you know, rock and roll music

1981
02:09:38,160 --> 02:09:41,840
Speaker 2: went two directions that went into like corporate rock. You know,

1982
02:09:41,880 --> 02:09:45,440
Speaker 2: it was like bands that were named after countries and

1983
02:09:45,560 --> 02:09:49,320
Speaker 2: cities and stuff that, and it was like white guys

1984
02:09:49,360 --> 02:09:57,720
Speaker 2: that were massogynistic, took too many drugs, were conspicuous consumers

1985
02:09:57,800 --> 02:10:00,920
Speaker 2: and proud of it, you know, and and the other

1986
02:10:01,720 --> 02:10:05,880
Speaker 2: the other uh direction, music went at that time was

1987
02:10:05,880 --> 02:10:09,880
Speaker 2: was disco and it was like Jerry said, once, I

1988
02:10:09,880 --> 02:10:12,440
Speaker 2: thought it was really funny. He said, disco. To me,

1989
02:10:12,600 --> 02:10:14,880
Speaker 2: it's kind We loved all the sounds in disco because

1990
02:10:14,880 --> 02:10:16,880
Speaker 2: they use these great synth sounds and it was like

1991
02:10:17,120 --> 02:10:19,880
Speaker 2: amazing sounds. And he said, yeah, but it's like a

1992
02:10:19,920 --> 02:10:24,400
Speaker 2: pretty woman with no brain. That was his take in disco,

1993
02:10:24,400 --> 02:10:27,120
Speaker 2: and I thought that was really good. And then then then,

1994
02:10:27,240 --> 02:10:29,440
Speaker 2: you know, then the punk things started up, and I

1995
02:10:29,560 --> 02:10:32,680
Speaker 2: was really interested in that because it was it was

1996
02:10:32,720 --> 02:10:36,400
Speaker 2: rebellion again. But then it was nihilistic and it was

1997
02:10:36,480 --> 02:10:39,120
Speaker 2: just you know, they just all fell apart, you know,

1998
02:10:39,200 --> 02:10:42,440
Speaker 2: and they all self destructed. And we thought, well, that's

1999
02:10:42,520 --> 02:10:44,960
Speaker 2: not what we are. You know. We just really thought

2000
02:10:44,960 --> 02:10:50,880
Speaker 2: we weren't any of those three things. And that's that's

2001
02:10:50,880 --> 02:10:54,520
Speaker 2: how we hit on on the evolution. You know. There

2002
02:10:54,600 --> 02:10:58,480
Speaker 2: was a movie from the fifties called Inherit the Wind,

2003
02:10:59,360 --> 02:11:01,200
Speaker 2: and it's the person first place I ever saw the

2004
02:11:01,200 --> 02:11:05,400
Speaker 2: word divo, and it was because there was you know,

2005
02:11:05,440 --> 02:11:08,800
Speaker 2: it was for the Scopes monkey trial. The movie was

2006
02:11:08,840 --> 02:11:12,120
Speaker 2: about it, and and there was like a it turned

2007
02:11:12,120 --> 02:11:16,560
Speaker 2: into a carnival outside of the courthouse where you know,

2008
02:11:16,600 --> 02:11:19,720
Speaker 2: people were in this little town were like selling whatever

2009
02:11:19,760 --> 02:11:22,680
Speaker 2: they could, hawking their wares. And this one guy that

2010
02:11:22,880 --> 02:11:26,040
Speaker 2: was like a circus barker, he's going he had a

2011
02:11:26,320 --> 02:11:30,320
Speaker 2: he had a chimpanzee smoking a cigarette sitting on a

2012
02:11:30,400 --> 02:11:33,120
Speaker 2: on on the table next to him, and behind him

2013
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:40,760
Speaker 2: it said the de Evolution Man. And at one point

2014
02:11:41,040 --> 02:11:44,400
Speaker 2: he's like going, e people, do you believe that this

2015
02:11:44,480 --> 02:11:47,680
Speaker 2: is your uncle up here? Do you believe you're related to.

2016
02:11:47,640 --> 02:11:51,040
Speaker 3: This this guy sitting on the table here, And he's

2017
02:11:51,080 --> 02:11:53,760
Speaker 3: like making fun of de evolution. But but like at

2018
02:11:53,760 --> 02:11:57,520
Speaker 3: one point there's a shot where the monkey's sitting there

2019
02:11:57,560 --> 02:12:00,360
Speaker 3: smoking the cigarette, and on one side of him you

2020
02:12:00,400 --> 02:12:03,240
Speaker 3: see the beginning of the evolution and you only see

2021
02:12:03,320 --> 02:12:06,760
Speaker 3: Devo and it says Divo and on the other side

2022
02:12:06,760 --> 02:12:10,320
Speaker 3: it says man. For about twenty seconds in the film,

2023
02:12:10,560 --> 02:12:12,800
Speaker 3: and that's the first place we ever saw the word.

2024
02:12:13,240 --> 02:12:16,920
Speaker 3: We love that. We love the idea of the chimpanzee

2025
02:12:16,920 --> 02:12:18,000
Speaker 3: being the Devo man.

2026
02:12:20,280 --> 02:12:25,600
Speaker 1: Well Mark, we bookended the career of Divo. We'll have

2027
02:12:25,680 --> 02:12:28,920
Speaker 1: to do another time about the records and making and

2028
02:12:29,000 --> 02:12:31,240
Speaker 1: meeting Eno, but I think we're going to stop here.

2029
02:12:31,960 --> 02:12:36,200
Speaker 1: This is very insightful, very stimulating. I want to thank

2030
02:12:36,280 --> 02:12:38,240
Speaker 1: you for taking this time with my audience.

2031
02:12:39,320 --> 02:12:42,840
Speaker 2: Thanks, Bob. You know I'm kind of inarticulate and a

2032
02:12:42,880 --> 02:12:45,000
Speaker 2: lot of you know, to be quite honest with you,

2033
02:12:45,200 --> 02:12:50,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, I like think things and I best express

2034
02:12:50,360 --> 02:12:55,280
Speaker 2: them through music and art and not words. So I

2035
02:12:55,320 --> 02:12:57,360
Speaker 2: hope it wasn't too tortuous for you.

2036
02:12:58,000 --> 02:13:01,720
Speaker 1: I don't think that's inaccurate. First of all, a couple

2037
02:13:01,720 --> 02:13:04,160
Speaker 1: of questions I asked, I saw you thinking about it.

2038
02:13:04,560 --> 02:13:06,560
Speaker 1: A lot of people have been interviewed so many times

2039
02:13:06,640 --> 02:13:10,360
Speaker 1: they just have their knee jerk answer. The other thing is,

2040
02:13:11,320 --> 02:13:14,440
Speaker 1: I used to have this theory that there were waves

2041
02:13:14,520 --> 02:13:18,520
Speaker 1: that came in and in the fifties and early sixties

2042
02:13:18,520 --> 02:13:21,760
Speaker 1: it was a beatnix. The wave would go out and

2043
02:13:21,840 --> 02:13:28,200
Speaker 1: certain people would be left on shore. Okay, you still

2044
02:13:28,320 --> 02:13:32,200
Speaker 1: have the values of the seventies. What I mean by

2045
02:13:32,200 --> 02:13:35,040
Speaker 1: that is the perspective which started in the sixties, and

2046
02:13:35,080 --> 02:13:37,680
Speaker 1: you're true to that when almost I can't think of

2047
02:13:37,800 --> 02:13:45,280
Speaker 1: anybody else who is so A that's stimulating, and B

2048
02:13:46,400 --> 02:13:49,320
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, you got the ideas out. Once you

2049
02:13:49,360 --> 02:13:51,680
Speaker 1: get into your groove and you're starting, I can listen forever.

2050
02:13:52,240 --> 02:13:54,360
Speaker 1: I'm only cutting it off for now, I say, you know,

2051
02:13:55,280 --> 02:13:57,480
Speaker 1: as I say, there's a lot of other questions I

2052
02:13:57,560 --> 02:13:59,720
Speaker 1: had if you and me were like, these are some

2053
02:13:59,720 --> 02:14:03,200
Speaker 1: of these just basic? Well what really something would really

2054
02:14:03,320 --> 02:14:06,240
Speaker 1: happen with the draft. I'm sure ultimately if you went

2055
02:14:06,280 --> 02:14:08,680
Speaker 1: for a physically ye had the eye thing whatever. But

2056
02:14:08,920 --> 02:14:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, digression is a spice of life, and your

2057
02:14:13,000 --> 02:14:16,280
Speaker 1: digressions were great, So I don't think you were being

2058
02:14:16,600 --> 02:14:20,800
Speaker 1: fake self deprecating and you really think you're not that articulate,

2059
02:14:20,880 --> 02:14:24,120
Speaker 1: But once you find your groove, it's pretty good and

2060
02:14:24,160 --> 02:14:26,520
Speaker 1: it's a lot more meaningful and rich than it is

2061
02:14:26,560 --> 02:14:27,720
Speaker 1: from the average person.

2062
02:14:28,840 --> 02:14:31,760
Speaker 2: Well, maybe we'll get a chance to talk about beating

2063
02:14:31,800 --> 02:14:36,200
Speaker 2: next sometime. I'm I think DEVO has a strong relationship there.

2064
02:14:37,160 --> 02:14:38,680
Speaker 2: But that's another story.

2065
02:14:38,440 --> 02:14:42,520
Speaker 1: That opens the door to like twenty five minutes right there,

2066
02:14:43,120 --> 02:14:46,320
Speaker 1: beating it, culture, et cetera. But we're going to end

2067
02:14:46,320 --> 02:14:49,960
Speaker 1: it here for today till next time. This is Bob

2068
02:14:50,120 --> 02:14:50,680
Speaker 1: left six