WEBVTT - The Slayer Rule 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:07.480 Would you raise your right handswer do you soundly declaring 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:09.639 a firm and the families of Burdery that the testimony 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:11.520 you should give should be the truth, though truths about 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:17.040 the truth? I do. You've heard short excerpts from this 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.280 deposition in previous episodes, and I told you i'd explain 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.639 it later. Well, that's what we're gonna do now. And 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.360 that term deposition is going to come up a lot, 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.240 So for those who aren't sure what it means, just 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.400 know that it's testimony taken under oath to be used 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.960 as evidence in a court case. How could you say 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:40.479 you name? Please, Sir Lawrence Thomas Horn. I'm going to 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.680 be asking you a series of questions during this deposition. 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.159 Lawrence Horne sat down for this deposition at one am 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:53.120 on July six at the Montgomery County Courthouse in Maryland. 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.640 Do you have any questions about that Millie Horne's two 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.760 sisters and her daughter Tiffany had filed the civil suit 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.880 to keep him from inheriting his son's one point seven 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:07.080 million dollar estate. Did you ever have any discussions or 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.760 were you present at any discussions about what would happen 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:18.959 to Trevor's estate if Millie died. If Millie Millie died, Yes, 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.120 if Millie and Trevor died, Okay, say that again. Now, 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.039 any discussions of what would happen to Trevor's estate if 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:36.000 Millian Trevor died. Did I have any discussions? Yes? This 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.720 deposition is stunning to listen to his tone, the way 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:42.720 he takes his time in answering certain questions, the way 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.480 he dodges others. Lawrence would sit through two days of 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.840 this in pursuit of Trevor's estate. We thought we had 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:54.080 done well for this family. That's Attorney John Marshall. He 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:58.400 helped win that settlement money, and yet we created the 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.520 monster by doing well. I don't think any of us 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:07.120 regret what we did. It's just you don't know what 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:11.400 people are capable of. Marshall referred Millie's family to Attorney 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:15.000 Glenn Cooper, whose voice you here questioning Lawrence on the tape, 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:18.520 and his co council Trish Weaver. Within the week that 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:24.720 the murders had occurred, Millie's sisters Elaine and Maryland came 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:28.919 to the firm and they basically said, you know, they 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.160 firmly believed that Lawrence Horn was responsible for the murder 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:37.760 of their sister and their nephew, as well as Janie Saunders. 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.919 The family started this process ten days after the murders 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.760 because there was a sense of urgency here. It was 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.720 the family's concern that he would try to himself get 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:51.240 control of the estate, distribute the money to himself, and 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.239 you know, by the time something happened down the road, 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.040 it would be too late and the money would be gone. 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:00.280 It was a case that would run parallel l to 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.280 the police investigation and provide law enforcement with a number 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.640 of insights and leads. Here's Lawrence's defense attorney from the 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:10.920 criminal trial, Jeff O'Toole, who remembers the deposition. Well, he 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.440 was torn between keeping very careful and trying to keep 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.680 his eye on the prize with the money, while at 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.760 the same time trying not to implicate himself in the 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.520 murder case. And I think Lawrence Horn thought he was 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:41.920 smart enough to do both. I'm Jasmine Morris from My 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:57.320 Heart Radio and Hit Home Media. This is Hitman. At 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.200 the time Lawrence sat down for this deposition almost a 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.040 year and a half into the criminal investigation looking into 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.920 who murdered Milly and Trevor Horn and Janice Saunders. Detectives 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.840 had compiled a ton of circumstantial evidence. There were surveillance 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.280 tapes of Millie's house found in Lawrence's apartment, a map 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.719 of Millie's neighborhood, and even an accidental recording on his 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.960 answering machine that seemed to be him in the contract killer, 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:25.760 confirming the hit. As we've noted, everyone thought Lawrence was 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.480 behind this, but he had an airtight alibi. He'd recorded 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.120 himself sitting in his apartment in l A at the 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.679 time of the murders, and the alleged hit man, James Perry, 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:40.360 had left behind no fingerprints, no DNA footprints, or physical evidence. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.440 The police had discovered that Perry bought the How To 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:48.000 Book hit Man, a technical manual for independent contractors, and 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.760 it laid out what investigators called a blueprint for the crimes. 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.000 In fact, he seemed to have followed something like two 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:59.599 dozen of its recommendations for a successful hit. But again 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.880 that was all circumstantial, and what investigators were really struggling 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.599 with was that there was no actual connection between Lawrence 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:13.960 Horn and James Perry, so that whole time Lawrence was free, 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.159 just going about his life trying to pull off the 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.839 final stages of his plan. What was that year like 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.560 where your dad was just out there? It was terrifying 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.920 for me. I mean, I was an emotional wreck. This 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:29.920 is from one of the many interviews I did with 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.520 his daughter Tiffany, who was eighteen at the time of 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.760 the murders. I was afraid that my dad would actually 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.440 come after me because I had information, and I was 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.719 one of the people that, you know, gave the police 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.720 so much of his background to kind of show them 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:50.120 that my dad could do that. In Just two months 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:54.599 after the murders, Lawrence came back to Maryland. Supposedly he 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.640 was consulting with attorneys on custody issues. Millie's sister, Elaine 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:02.400 had been awarded temporary already in ship of Trevor's twin sister, Tamielle, 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.200 which wouldn't be surprising given how cautious he was about 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.839 making sure his daughters wouldn't be home the night of 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.640 the murders. I think he set it up the way 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:13.839 he did because I think he really did not want 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.920 me and my sister to be murdered. That's why he 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.680 was calling to find out where my sister was and 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.359 making sure I was at school because I really do 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.640 believe that he thought that was salvaging at least some 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.320 of his family, and that I would take ownership of 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.360 my sister because I was eighteen, and move her out 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.440 to California with him and his family. Remember Lawrence's nickname 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.599 back in his navy days was your man with the plan. 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.920 And maybe he thought his plan was really working. He'd 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.120 evade justice, he'd get the one point seven million dollars, 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:48.599 and not just the money, but his daughters too. But 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:52.920 Millie's sisters were a lot like she was, tough, determined, willful, 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.240 like these steel magnolias who looked out for one another, 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.360 and they were never going to let him near Tammielle, 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:05.480 Tiffany or the estate. So in Maryland there is something 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.960 called the slayer's role again, Trish Weaver. It stands for 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.280 the very basic proposition that if you are responsible for 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.320 killing someone, you don't get to inherit from them, Okay, 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:19.480 So the slayer's rule. It's important that we understand this 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:24.000 in order to understand what's happening in Lawrence's deposition. Crime 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.560 shouldn't pay. It's a principle that goes all the way 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.480 back to the beginnings of common law. The Romans had 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.000 a maxim our engineer Jacopo Penzo actually speaks Latin. I'll 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:39.880 let him tell you. It translates to no one can 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.760 derive an advantage from his own wrong. Along the way, 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.680 you see, it gets implemented in different societies. In the 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.320 Middle Ages, kings made sure that anyone found to have 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.280 committed a felony really paid they had to give up 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.960 their property rights. The US actually didn't have a similar 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.680 rule until six This case is a little tricky, but 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.360 the version is a guy took a life insurance policy 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.680 out on his friend, then killed him. When the insurance 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.560 company refused to pay, he sued them for the money. 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.840 It went all the way to the Supreme Court, who 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:13.800 said it would be a reproach to the jurisprudence of 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.440 the country if one could recover insurance money payable on 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:23.400 the death of a party whose life he had feloniously taken. Morally, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.960 it makes perfect sense. However, it can be tough to apply, 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:29.880 Like what if it's a car crash, so you're guilty 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.199 of involuntary manslaughter. What if you're found not guilty by 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.040 reason of insanity, do you still get the inheritance? Then? 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.560 It can get murky. And here's the other thing. The 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:43.199 slayer's rule gets applied in civil court, not criminal court, 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.760 and the burden of proof is totally different. In other words, 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.560 you can be acquitted of murder in a criminal trial 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.640 and still lose your inheritance in a lawsuit like this one. 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.840 So in pursuit of Trevor's inheritance, Lawrence sat down for 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:03.720 this deposition. It was not ruffled. He didn't appear to 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.440 break a sweat, you know, And he answered questions for 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.600 two days. And I think he truly believed that he 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.880 was going to be out smarting everybody, that he was 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.560 going to get away with it. There was one big 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:21.000 problem for Lawrence, though. Prosecutors from the criminal case had 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.280 decided to use his deposition as a kind of trojan horse. 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.240 They were racing. They had to prove Lawrence Horn hired 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.400 someone to murder his family for money. Before he could 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:35.559 get his hands on the money, Glenn Cooper was representing 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.760 a family. Glenn would call from time to time, what's 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:41.720 going on? I said, I can't tell you a lot. 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:43.920 We are where we are on this. But he said, 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.240 but if if I chance during your deposition of him, 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.840 you asked him about a calling card. It might be 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:55.400 helpful to all of us, so he questioned, he had 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:57.720 no idea what I was talking about, and go back 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:02.800 to this calling card in some other name. So he 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:07.000 asked that in the deposition for you essentially kind of yeah, yeah, 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.439 I just want to say, there are so many important 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.960 calls in this investigation, forty three to be exact, so 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:18.079 it's okay if you lose tracks sometimes. Investigators spent months 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.680 now combing through the phone records of Lawrence Horn and 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.040 James Perry, and eventually they figured out that the two men, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.520 one living in l a and the other in Detroit, 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:30.120 had been using the same calling card, registered under a 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.240 fake name, for a full year before the murders. Just 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.080 for the record, Lawrence claims he was using this card 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:41.000 to call other women so his living girlfriend didn't find out. 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:43.839 And even though they were both using the calling card, 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.320 neither was calling each other's house. They used pay phones 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.720 a lot so they wouldn't be caught talking to each other, 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.160 and investigators had no way of knowing what was actually 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.360 being said on these calls. We've still needed to somehow 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:59.000 find out how in the world do we connect Lawrence 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.920 Horn and James Perry. We've got phone records, you know, 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:06.920 We've got okay Detroit, and we put up a surveillance. 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.480 They started telling Perry, honestly, if there wasn't already so 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.520 much to cover in the series, we could have done 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.160 a whole episode on the surveillance alone. And we basically 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:21.400 wound up setting wire taps up on James Perry's house. 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:25.160 We had I guess four separate wire taps going. They 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.679 keep on Perry for months, unable to catch him in 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.320 conversation with Lawrence Horn. But then they noticed he's been 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.160 hanging out with this one guy a lot, Thomas Turner. 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.600 So we followed him and got his tag number and 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.199 found that Thomas Turner. Who the heck is Thomas Turner, Well, 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:44.600 he's Lawrence Horn's cousin. It wasn't until they got a 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:48.360 warrant to tap Turner's phone when they realized just how 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:52.240 Perry and Horn had been communicating. They later learned Turner 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.160 also rented the cars Perry used to go to Maryland. 0:11:56.040 --> 0:12:00.319 There was a series of calls that were generated Horn 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.559 to Turner just because trying to set up a call 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.959 with Perry and vice versa. Perry would use turner to 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.600 set up calls. Horn, so we're catching all this on 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:20.560 wire interseps. The following has been edited for time and clarity. Yellow. 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.480 Hey man, that's your couse. Hey, I've been trying to 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:30.040 catch up to you. Uh, take a contact of all yeah, 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:31.880 set it up to call so I know you know 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:39.520 when to go. All right, okay, thank you, alright, Okay, 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.400 I need to talk to you. That nobody still the 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.280 same over at your older brothers, I think so it 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.079 would it be possible for you to think collective? You 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.240 call over there? You know what I'm saying, Just in case, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.720 uh we're not cool? Here? Can we look it up anytime? Later, 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:59.319 investigators believed this older brother was actually James Perry. They 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.640 were talking about money. Lawrence was keeping Perry posted on 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:11.120 the progress of the estate litigation. Perry was demanding payment. Hello, yeah, Thomas, 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:15.480 hold on the camp. Hell yeah, what's up? Yeah? Well, 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.360 I just wanted to have a conversation with you, and 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.760 I just want you know, if if you feel that, uh, 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.120 you know, everything is cool on your end and you know, well, 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:32.640 uh discussed too much, you know, Okay, all right, you 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.080 know the problem I'm having. Yeah, So I just wanted 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:37.719 to get into position where, you know, I felt that 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.040 you were comfortable talking, you know, so that we could 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.680 talk freely. I mentioned, you know, going over to uh, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:49.240 you know, your older brother. Yeah, because it's probably you know, clean, 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:54.880 you know, there's no problem there. Yeah, about ten you know. Okay, 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.319 I'm telling I expect to come all right, all right, okay. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:03.000 Care They knew Turner was the broker. Prosecutor Bob Dean 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.480 went out to Detroit to pull him in. Yeah, is 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.000 the FBI office. We brought him to and sat down 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.880 and had a heart to heart with him. He didn't 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.839 want to say anything. He called up Lawrence Horn, and 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.040 Lawrence Horne told him, I'm going to get you a lawyer. 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.600 Don't say anything. Were you still I was with him? 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:23.640 I was with him when he made the call. Yeah, 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:25.240 he was with him. He was with the police. He 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.640 was the Montgomery County Police and the FBI, and he 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:34.360 called Lawrence right in front of you. Yes. Does that 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.000 say something? Yes, of course it does. That same day, 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:45.920 wire taps caught this call between Lawrence and Turner's wife, Cynthia. Cynthia, Yes, 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:51.440 Laurence again, did Thomas call you? Okay? Okay? Now from 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:55.880 what he's telling me. It's like they're trying to force 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.560 him into making some statements or something. Right, that's what 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:00.680 he's trying to tell me. But hold on't I say, 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.720 take your time and listen and then ask you the question. 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:06.840 You know, Well, the point is is he does not 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.240 have to see anything. Okay, this isn't the same quiet 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.360 Lawrence Horn from the other recordings or even the deposition. 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.840 He sounds rattled. They investigated everybody out here, and then 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:20.880 they said they were going back to Detroit, and then 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.440 Cynthia shares even worse news. They said they already been 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:36.520 to James. That's James Perry. Yeah, so anyway, Uh, Lawrence's 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:43.840 plot starting to unravel. So investigators had wire taps proving 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:48.280 this web of communication, and still Lawrence denied it all 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.360 in his deposition. Do you know how Mr Turner knows 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:57.400 Mr Perry? And if Mr Turner and Mr Perry conspired 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.640 to murder your former wife and your son and your 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.000 son's nurse, they did so completely on their own, without 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.320 any involvement of you by you as that correct, check 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:15.760 the form with you answer. Yes, We'll be right back. 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.080 If you want to understand just how much trouble this 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.320 deposition would end up being for Lawrence. Just listen to 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:40.720 this statement from prosecution during Lawrence's trial. Quote during that deposition, 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.560 despite all these phone calls, in these contacts between the two, 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:47.400 and despite what you're going to hear about Thomas Turner 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.200 setting up the phone calls for them to continue talking, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.160 Lawrence Horne denies knowing James Perry over and over again. 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.920 Not only denies knowing him, but says I never called him. 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:06.440 I don't know what you're talking about. There are a 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.320 few moments in this deposition that I had to listen 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.840 to a couple of times. The following has been edited down, 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.800 but I promise you this is real. When you were 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.040 in the navy, there was apparently an incident where a 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:23.680 sailor was lost at sea. If you understand the question, 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.840 you can answer yes. What you repeat the question? You 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.120 were in the navy, there was apparently an incident where 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.560 a sailor was lost a seal on your ship you 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:36.399 were falling any such incident, Oh, I didn't. During the 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.360 period when you were in the navy, what ships were 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:47.200 you shipped on? I served aboard the USS Lake Champlain CBS, 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:51.560 and during that period of time. There was never anyone 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.800 lost the seal on the way Champlain co action. He 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.240 guess him first on understanding or whether there was ever 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:01.200 anyone lost to see that he may or may not 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.920 know about. But he doesn't know about it, obviously, you 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.159 can't tell us about right, So amazing to his knowledge, 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.560 because anyone ever lost to seeing like jam playing while 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:14.639 you served, I'm not aware of any This part of 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.919 the deposition jumps out because it seems so strange. Why 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:22.400 would they ask about a man being thrown overboard decades before? Well, 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.800 Tiffany has an answer. She said that Lawrence used to 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.119 brag to her about killing a man at sea. It 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:31.879 was one of the first red flags she told investigators 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.000 after her family was murdered. I mean, we'll never know 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.840 if this actually happened. And from what attorneys have told me, 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:41.560 this was never investigated. He was never accused or prosecuted. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.840 But that's the rumor they're getting at in this deposition here. 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.240 I really can never predict where this story will go. 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.439 Like Tiffany once told me, this isn't one story, it's fifty. 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.200 And the thing is, Lawrence didn't have to answer any 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.119 of these questions again, here's Trish Weaver. He hadn't been 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:12.080 indicted yet, nobody had been indicted, but he clearly had 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:16.040 to know that he was under investigation, and so he 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:21.040 could have come to that deposition and asserted his Fifth 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:25.920 Amendment privilege and not answered any of the questions. Instead, 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.399 he answered questions for two days about his motives, about 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.560 his desire to get the money, about what he knew, 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.320 about a variety of different things. Because in a Maryland 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.960 civil case, if a person asserts their Fifth Amendment and 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.720 refuses to answer questions, it doesn't look good. In the 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.440 civil case, the fact finder could say, oh, okay, well 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.760 you didn't answer that because the answer that would have 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:53.399 been bad for you. And so, since the motive for 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.800 the murders was to get Trevor's money, he apparently was 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.440 not willing to risk lose see that money, and the 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.159 lawyers knew it. But clearly his whole plan hinges on 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:09.000 acting like he's completely ignorant of the money. Again, the 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.840 following has been edited for time and clarity. That is, 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:18.240 up until March three. I'm looking for your understanding of 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.360 what would happen to the one point one million dollar 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.200 future thing. Trever Doe I didn't spent a lot of 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:29.160 time thinking about that. As I recall, I understood basically 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:38.680 that if Trevor died after the settlement that million, I 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:47.160 would inherit his estate equally, that include the one point 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:52.040 one million dollar future plan. Do you understand, yes, any 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.399 discussions of what would happen to Trevor's estate if million 0:20:55.600 --> 0:21:01.920 Trevor died? Did I have any discussions? Yes? No? Right? Uh? 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:07.800 Have you up until March three? My understanding for your 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.560 testimony is you've never discussed with anyone what happens to 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:17.879 Trevor's estate if Millie and Trevor both that there are 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.800 times when it seems like he's trying not to incriminate himself, 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.359 and then there are times when he tells the truth. 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.680 In the deposition, they asked him if he called Millie 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:32.200 on March two, just hours before she was killed. He says, yes, 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:34.560 that it was the last time he talked to her. 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.879 I'm not certain. Was it half an hour? Was? No? No, 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:47.240 it was it was. It was short, but it was nice. 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.960 You've heard excerpts already where he talks about his relationship 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.320 with Millie, but I'm going to let it play now. 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.280 Describe for us. Now, your relationship with Millie from seven 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:04.560 until her death? YEA, well, pretty much the same as 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:10.640 it was as far as the roller coaster up and down, unpredictable, 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:14.480 hot and cold. When you say it was hot and cold, 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:16.600 and I assume when you say it was cold at 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:25.399 times there was some kind of distance between you, or 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:31.080 when you say it was hot at times from until 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:37.240 her death, what do you mean? Uh, Milly was very moody. 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:44.320 And it's like I would call her at times and 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:51.480 she wouldn't speak to me. At other times she would, 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:59.159 So it was it got to be how lucky I 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:05.080 was as far as when I was able to you know, 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:10.240 it's a contact her. And remember this moment at the 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:15.159 time that you married Millie Murray. Did you love her? 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:35.800 M hm No. So when Lawrence is giving this deposition, 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:40.440 he knows Thomas Turner is talking, he knows James Perry's 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.600 house has been searched, he knows the FBI is monitoring 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:46.920 his phones, and still this is his answer to the 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:51.359 question did you love her? It's chilling. It's almost like 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:54.480 he couldn't help himself but to admit something so cold 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:59.600 when he was under investigation for her murderer. Do you 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:01.879 re in my ber the way that he talked about 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:05.160 his relationship with Millie. Yeah, he struck me. I mean, 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:08.520 I'm not going to try to play, you know, armchair psychologist, 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:11.520 but I mean he struck me very much as a narcissist. 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:14.879 I mean it seemed as if he was the center 0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:19.280 of his universe and everybody else was an orbit around that. 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:26.080 On July, just a week or so after Lawrence gave 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:29.919 this deposition, he was arrested by federal agents in Hollywood. 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:33.320 Perry was taken into custody that same day by the 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:38.560 FBI in Detroit. So the deposition had helped unravel their plan. 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.320 So he was so confident that he wouldn't be indicted 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:44.560 that he was willing to say things that could potentially 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:51.240 perjur himself. He did perjur himself absolutely. The attorneys that 0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:55.600 represented him are very competent attorneys. So I have every 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:59.040 reason to believe that he was fully advised about the 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:02.200 risk that he was taking. I'm sure he really knowingly 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:07.560 made that determination that he could kind of maneuver the 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:09.960 whole thing and try to come out on top. We 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:14.040 videotaped the deposition. It was two days and what we 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:17.359 just took the video tapes over to the state's attorney's office. 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.320 He lied about many things, and I think that was 0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:32.680 very instrumental, and that ultimately was what led to his indictment. 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:36.879 Oh another thing, investigators had been trying to figure out 0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:39.800 how or how much or even if Lawrence had paid 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:46.160 James Perry. As always, this case came back to money, money. 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:49.160 Where did the money come from? Well, Dan New Perry 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:52.320 used Western Union from when they searched his apartment, So 0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:56.040 we went through hundreds of transactions from Western Union. Of course, 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.960 Lawrence's name was nowhere to be found, but there were 0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:03.160 several transaction from Los Angeles. In the five months leading 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:06.280 up to the murders. James Perry and his girlfriend received 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:10.159 money transfers and amounts totaling six thousand dollars, which is 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.000 around the same amount of upfront payment. The Hitman book 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:17.680 suggests in these payments from Los Angeles came from a 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:22.639 man named George Shaw. And George Shaw whoever he was, 0:26:23.080 --> 0:26:25.600 and our theory was it was Laurence Horn. Of course. 0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:29.000 One of the addresses he used was the old address 0:26:29.040 --> 0:26:33.600 of Motown in Los Angeles. He used a phone number 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:37.679 of Motown and that wasn't all. It was a feeling 0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:39.680 that I had that you know, there there had to 0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:42.480 be at the code to break. I can remember going 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:45.720 over to the University of Maryland library one night, and 0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:49.280 I really don't know why I did this other than 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:54.560 just out of curiosity, but I started looking for back 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:58.440 copies of Los Angeles Times on micro fish and in 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:03.480 the July eight edition, Dean found the obituary from a 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:08.320 man named George Shaw. And on that same page there 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:12.399 was a very large article about Mary Wells. Mary Wells 0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:15.280