1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,196 --> 00:00:25,076 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, Malcolm here. The countdown is on on June 3 00:00:25,076 --> 00:00:28,916 Speaker 2: twenty fourth. We'll be back with Season six, the most 4 00:00:29,076 --> 00:00:33,076 Speaker 2: banana season of Revisionist history ever. I finally get out 5 00:00:33,116 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 2: of the house. I've got Phoenix, New Orleans, and I 6 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:42,276 Speaker 2: go metaphorically to the Magic Kingdom on a mission of mischief. 7 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 2: Season six is so fantastic. I don't want to give 8 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:48,676 Speaker 2: too much away. Just hang tight, It'll be here soon. 9 00:00:49,836 --> 00:00:52,156 Speaker 2: It's been an especially busy time for me working on 10 00:00:52,196 --> 00:00:55,956 Speaker 2: season six and promoting our new book, The Bomber Mafia. 11 00:00:56,436 --> 00:00:58,356 Speaker 2: One of the events on my book tour was a 12 00:00:58,396 --> 00:01:03,436 Speaker 2: conversation on Clubhouse with my good friend Adam Grant. He's 13 00:01:03,476 --> 00:01:07,036 Speaker 2: an organizational psychologist at the Wharton School the University of Pennsylvania, 14 00:01:07,316 --> 00:01:10,556 Speaker 2: and he hosts the podcast Take for Granted from the 15 00:01:10,596 --> 00:01:14,236 Speaker 2: Ted Audio Collective. We've actually both had new books out 16 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:17,956 Speaker 2: this spring. Adams is called Think Again, which I really loved. 17 00:01:18,636 --> 00:01:20,956 Speaker 2: It seems he and I are always crossing paths on 18 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:23,716 Speaker 2: the book tour circuit, and we always challenge each other 19 00:01:24,196 --> 00:01:26,716 Speaker 2: and we always have fun. I wanted to play you 20 00:01:26,836 --> 00:01:31,316 Speaker 2: some snippets of our recent conversations forgive Me by the Way, 21 00:01:31,356 --> 00:01:35,956 Speaker 2: for stating the obvious, but books make great Father's Day gifts. 22 00:01:36,316 --> 00:01:39,716 Speaker 2: Why not make it both? Get the Bomber Mafia audiobook 23 00:01:39,756 --> 00:01:43,716 Speaker 2: from Bombermafia dot com and then think again from wherever 24 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:46,636 Speaker 2: you get your books, and I'll see you very soon 25 00:01:47,036 --> 00:01:52,836 Speaker 2: for season six of Revisionist History. Okay, here's our clubhouse 26 00:01:52,876 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 2: discussion about the Bomber. 27 00:01:54,716 --> 00:02:03,076 Speaker 3: Mafia thrilla to welcome Malcolm Gladwell back to clubhouse. Malcolm 28 00:02:03,116 --> 00:02:03,836 Speaker 3: glad you're here. 29 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:06,156 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. I was going to say, not a 30 00:02:06,156 --> 00:02:09,676 Speaker 2: week passes when I'm not engaged in some kind of 31 00:02:09,676 --> 00:02:10,796 Speaker 2: public conversation with you. 32 00:02:11,116 --> 00:02:16,436 Speaker 3: Be careful what you wish for. Yes, I wanted to 33 00:02:16,476 --> 00:02:18,596 Speaker 3: kick off by just asking you to tell us a 34 00:02:18,636 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 3: little bit about the Bomber Mafia. I think it's anybody 35 00:02:22,276 --> 00:02:24,836 Speaker 3: who's listened to Revisionist History the last couple of seasons 36 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:28,316 Speaker 3: knows how obsessed you are with it. But for those 37 00:02:28,356 --> 00:02:31,076 Speaker 3: who are not initiated, give us the teaser. 38 00:02:31,516 --> 00:02:36,156 Speaker 2: Bomber Mafia is the story of a group of pilots 39 00:02:36,196 --> 00:02:42,076 Speaker 2: in southern Alabama in the nineteen thirties who believed that 40 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:47,556 Speaker 2: they had and could reinvent warfare. That they could through 41 00:02:47,556 --> 00:02:51,716 Speaker 2: the use of technology particularly the bomber and means of 42 00:02:51,796 --> 00:02:55,076 Speaker 2: dropping bombs with accuracy. They could render every other part 43 00:02:55,076 --> 00:03:00,836 Speaker 2: of the military obsolete, and they could turn wars from 44 00:03:01,596 --> 00:03:04,516 Speaker 2: something that where hundreds of thousands of civilians died as 45 00:03:04,516 --> 00:03:08,436 Speaker 2: a matter of course, to a kind of clean and 46 00:03:08,516 --> 00:03:13,156 Speaker 2: surgical exercise. And they took that dream with them into 47 00:03:13,156 --> 00:03:15,436 Speaker 2: the Second World War and tried to make it real. 48 00:03:15,516 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 2: And it's the story of it's the story of that attempt. 49 00:03:19,556 --> 00:03:23,436 Speaker 2: What happens when a group of people with an idea, 50 00:03:23,636 --> 00:03:27,436 Speaker 2: fired by morality and technology meet the real world. 51 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:30,036 Speaker 3: This is a very different kind of book than you've 52 00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:33,556 Speaker 3: written before. First and foremost because the cover is not white, 53 00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:38,516 Speaker 3: which threw me, but also also because it's a history book, 54 00:03:39,156 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 3: and because despite your going back in history decades and decades, 55 00:03:45,636 --> 00:03:48,596 Speaker 3: it's also more personal, I think than anything you've ever written. 56 00:03:49,276 --> 00:03:50,676 Speaker 3: And I'd love for you to share with us a 57 00:03:50,716 --> 00:03:53,276 Speaker 3: little bit about the seeds that were planted in your 58 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:55,476 Speaker 3: own life that got you curious about this topic. 59 00:03:55,876 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 2: Well, my father, who was English, grew up in Kent 60 00:04:02,076 --> 00:04:05,996 Speaker 2: in which is the which was called bamb Ally because 61 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:09,916 Speaker 2: the German bombers on their way to bomb London during 62 00:04:09,956 --> 00:04:13,676 Speaker 2: the Blitz would pass over my father's little town in Kent, 63 00:04:13,796 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 2: and he, as a child, would be instructed by my 64 00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:19,916 Speaker 2: grandmother to sleep under his bed, which was the only 65 00:04:19,996 --> 00:04:24,676 Speaker 2: plausible defense against a bomb dropping on her house, and 66 00:04:24,716 --> 00:04:28,316 Speaker 2: he would He had all these stories like a bomb 67 00:04:28,316 --> 00:04:32,196 Speaker 2: once landed in her backyard and luckily didn't explode. He 68 00:04:32,316 --> 00:04:35,676 Speaker 2: was once out picking strawberries with my grandmother and German 69 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 2: planes passed overhead and my grandmother hid my father and 70 00:04:40,116 --> 00:04:44,356 Speaker 2: my uncle under newspapers for reasons that no one really knows. 71 00:04:44,556 --> 00:04:46,636 Speaker 2: She thought maybe she hid them from the pilots they 72 00:04:46,636 --> 00:04:49,436 Speaker 2: wouldn't bomb them. But it was like a He would 73 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 2: tell these stories and to me, at you know, the 74 00:04:52,396 --> 00:04:56,436 Speaker 2: age of five or six, these stories were unbelievably excited. 75 00:04:57,796 --> 00:05:00,916 Speaker 2: You know, I was. I was in We were in 76 00:05:01,156 --> 00:05:06,316 Speaker 2: rural southwestern Canada, maybe the most boring part of the 77 00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:09,916 Speaker 2: western world, and my dad was telling me nothing happened. 78 00:05:09,956 --> 00:05:12,476 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a great good thing. And my father 79 00:05:12,556 --> 00:05:15,316 Speaker 2: was telling me these stories about you know, like bombs 80 00:05:15,356 --> 00:05:18,076 Speaker 2: dropping in his backyard when he was my age, and 81 00:05:18,116 --> 00:05:20,116 Speaker 2: I you know, I think that probably instilled in me 82 00:05:21,196 --> 00:05:23,076 Speaker 2: a kind of romantic love of this era. 83 00:05:24,156 --> 00:05:27,156 Speaker 3: It shows and I know that you're a huge fan 84 00:05:27,196 --> 00:05:29,676 Speaker 3: of spy novels, and you've read all the fiction you 85 00:05:29,676 --> 00:05:32,916 Speaker 3: can find about war. I think you've done something more 86 00:05:32,916 --> 00:05:35,916 Speaker 3: impressive than writing a page turner of fiction in this book, 87 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:38,916 Speaker 3: which is you have brought these real life characters and 88 00:05:38,956 --> 00:05:41,516 Speaker 3: their stories to life in a way that feels like 89 00:05:41,556 --> 00:05:44,436 Speaker 3: I'm reading a thriller. I could not put it down. 90 00:05:45,076 --> 00:05:47,076 Speaker 3: I've read now the print version and listen to the 91 00:05:47,116 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 3: audio version, and I'm still hooked. And I wonder if 92 00:05:50,836 --> 00:05:52,996 Speaker 3: you could talk a little bit about how you got 93 00:05:52,996 --> 00:05:54,836 Speaker 3: into the minds of these people that you've not been 94 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:55,596 Speaker 3: able to meet. 95 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 2: Well you write it is a departure for me. So 96 00:05:58,036 --> 00:05:59,956 Speaker 2: I've never done a book which is so much of 97 00:05:59,956 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 2: a kind of first of all, a single narrative. Usually 98 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:04,796 Speaker 2: I hop around, you know, I tell all kinds of 99 00:06:04,796 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 2: different stories. But I also have never written a book 100 00:06:07,276 --> 00:06:12,436 Speaker 2: which was so singularly focused on two characters. This book 101 00:06:12,516 --> 00:06:16,796 Speaker 2: is the story of the conflict between two kind of 102 00:06:16,956 --> 00:06:20,716 Speaker 2: legendary World War Two Air Force generals, Curtis Lamey and 103 00:06:20,756 --> 00:06:22,156 Speaker 2: Heyward Hansel, and. 104 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:24,796 Speaker 1: I really do you know. 105 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:31,236 Speaker 2: They're incredibly vivid characters, and we because we started this 106 00:06:31,276 --> 00:06:33,716 Speaker 2: project as an audio project. I was always thinking that 107 00:06:33,756 --> 00:06:36,716 Speaker 2: this first is an audiobook, and the reason for that 108 00:06:36,876 --> 00:06:41,236 Speaker 2: was that we have so much incredible archival tape of 109 00:06:41,276 --> 00:06:45,076 Speaker 2: these generals in the Second World board there's Maxwell Air 110 00:06:45,116 --> 00:06:49,276 Speaker 2: Force Base in Alabama. There's a room full of tape 111 00:06:49,876 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 2: of interviews with virtually every major figure in the Air 112 00:06:54,516 --> 00:06:59,036 Speaker 2: Force in that period. And once you know you can 113 00:06:59,116 --> 00:07:02,436 Speaker 2: hear them, you I think you have a lot more 114 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:06,276 Speaker 2: confidence that you could bring them to life. And you know, 115 00:07:06,396 --> 00:07:10,276 Speaker 2: like particularly le May, who is this kind of unbelievable, 116 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:15,836 Speaker 2: cold blooded, you know, bulldog of a man. When you 117 00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:18,516 Speaker 2: hear his voice, you feel like you you know who 118 00:07:18,516 --> 00:07:21,756 Speaker 2: he is because he has this kind of guttural grunt. 119 00:07:22,596 --> 00:07:26,476 Speaker 2: And that just gave me confidence that I could they 120 00:07:26,516 --> 00:07:28,916 Speaker 2: would be more than two dimensional characters on the page, 121 00:07:28,956 --> 00:07:31,796 Speaker 2: if I could, If I could, you know, use a 122 00:07:32,116 --> 00:07:35,476 Speaker 2: do a kind of enhanced audiobook that would bring them 123 00:07:35,476 --> 00:07:35,876 Speaker 2: to life. 124 00:07:36,556 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 3: Well it shows And I thought one of the other 125 00:07:39,396 --> 00:07:42,436 Speaker 3: interesting features of the book was the way that you 126 00:07:43,316 --> 00:07:47,556 Speaker 3: almost tantalize us with these questions of morality. Early on 127 00:07:47,676 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 3: you ask us to consider what would I have done 128 00:07:50,716 --> 00:07:53,516 Speaker 3: and which side would I have been on? And I 129 00:07:53,556 --> 00:07:56,076 Speaker 3: want to hear your answer to this because you avoided 130 00:07:56,116 --> 00:07:58,916 Speaker 3: it the whole book. But first, can you just walk 131 00:07:58,996 --> 00:08:01,916 Speaker 3: us through the central moral dilemma of the bomber Mafia. 132 00:08:02,636 --> 00:08:05,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, the barmber Mafia. One of the reasons I was 133 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 2: so attracted to this story is that they are they 134 00:08:08,196 --> 00:08:13,596 Speaker 2: are obsessive, and they are their technological obsessives. They're they're 135 00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:16,196 Speaker 2: a very familiar figure for us now there are They're 136 00:08:16,236 --> 00:08:18,676 Speaker 2: young men who are in the grip of a kind 137 00:08:18,676 --> 00:08:22,836 Speaker 2: of passion that has been fired by a technological innovation. 138 00:08:23,436 --> 00:08:25,876 Speaker 2: They would not be out of place in Silicon Valley today. 139 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 2: They would, in fact, you know, be be utterly They're 140 00:08:30,196 --> 00:08:32,996 Speaker 2: utterly familiar in one sense, but in another sense, they're 141 00:08:33,116 --> 00:08:37,876 Speaker 2: not because they're they have a moral vision. The reason 142 00:08:37,956 --> 00:08:41,476 Speaker 2: they are so passionate about what bombing can do and 143 00:08:41,476 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 2: how bombing can transform more is that they are desperate 144 00:08:44,756 --> 00:08:50,076 Speaker 2: to avoid the carnage of the First World War, and 145 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:55,516 Speaker 2: that part of them I love. I love that they 146 00:08:55,796 --> 00:09:01,596 Speaker 2: considered the the moral implications of their dream were as 147 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:06,156 Speaker 2: important to them as the kind of technological implications. That 148 00:09:06,156 --> 00:09:09,276 Speaker 2: that's not something I see today, and so that I 149 00:09:09,596 --> 00:09:12,316 Speaker 2: thought that they were this extraordinary role model for how 150 00:09:12,356 --> 00:09:18,956 Speaker 2: you can bring together moral desires with technological obsession. But 151 00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:22,716 Speaker 2: it doesn't work, right. You know, the story of this 152 00:09:22,756 --> 00:09:25,236 Speaker 2: book is the story of the failure of this dream, 153 00:09:25,556 --> 00:09:28,196 Speaker 2: and so you, you know, you, I don't know if 154 00:09:28,196 --> 00:09:30,796 Speaker 2: it is possible. I do not you. You're quite right. 155 00:09:30,956 --> 00:09:33,316 Speaker 2: This book does not give you an easy answer to 156 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:36,836 Speaker 2: which side should we be on? Because there is no 157 00:09:36,916 --> 00:09:40,916 Speaker 2: easy answer. All I can say is I like the idea. 158 00:09:40,956 --> 00:09:43,556 Speaker 2: I like the fact that they tried to bring a 159 00:09:43,636 --> 00:09:49,996 Speaker 2: moral vision to h to their way of fighting wars. 160 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:53,476 Speaker 2: And I'm sad that they failed. But that's as far 161 00:09:53,516 --> 00:09:54,636 Speaker 2: as it goes. I don't know. 162 00:09:55,676 --> 00:09:56,396 Speaker 1: I didn't want to. 163 00:09:57,436 --> 00:10:00,436 Speaker 2: I'm kind of I'm kind of overbooks that give you 164 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:03,556 Speaker 2: a neat little conclusion. I find that condescending almost. 165 00:10:04,596 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 3: I respect that. I also think, Malcolm Gladwell, that you 166 00:10:07,916 --> 00:10:11,996 Speaker 3: are letting these people off the hook awfully easily to 167 00:10:12,076 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 3: say that, Yeah, of course, they come in with a 168 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:19,916 Speaker 3: moral vision. They have a sense of almost ideological superiority, 169 00:10:20,236 --> 00:10:22,236 Speaker 3: that they are going to fix all the problems with 170 00:10:22,316 --> 00:10:27,636 Speaker 3: war while still fighting a war and essentially torturing countless people. 171 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:31,236 Speaker 3: And okay, you know what, good that they had a 172 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:34,116 Speaker 3: sense of morality, even though they did so much harm. Really, 173 00:10:34,276 --> 00:10:35,076 Speaker 3: are you okay with that? 174 00:10:36,316 --> 00:10:40,156 Speaker 2: Well? I don't know how much choice you have once 175 00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 2: you are committed to a conflict. I mean, part of 176 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:45,876 Speaker 2: the reason the story I think is so compelling is 177 00:10:45,916 --> 00:10:50,436 Speaker 2: that the deep way you get into the story the book, 178 00:10:50,676 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 2: the more you're aware of how constrained the choices available 179 00:10:54,676 --> 00:10:59,436 Speaker 2: to the characters are. You know, you think about the 180 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:01,956 Speaker 2: kind of second half of the book is all about 181 00:11:01,956 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 2: what happens when my two protagonists Curtis lemanne heywould Hansel 182 00:11:07,276 --> 00:11:11,196 Speaker 2: come into conflict in On in January of nineteen forty five, 183 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 2: when the focus of the war has turned from Europe 184 00:11:14,196 --> 00:11:16,996 Speaker 2: to the war against Japan to the Pacific theater, and 185 00:11:17,036 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 2: they are given the task by the Allied leadership of 186 00:11:22,796 --> 00:11:26,556 Speaker 2: bringing Japan to its knees and they get to choose 187 00:11:26,636 --> 00:11:31,756 Speaker 2: how they will do that, and neither of the options 188 00:11:31,756 --> 00:11:35,476 Speaker 2: available to them are any good. And I don't know, 189 00:11:37,556 --> 00:11:41,156 Speaker 2: I really don't know whether you can It's not their fault. 190 00:11:41,276 --> 00:11:44,276 Speaker 2: The options are no good, right, war is there's no 191 00:11:44,436 --> 00:11:48,756 Speaker 2: kind of easy moral solution in these situations. It's like 192 00:11:49,596 --> 00:11:51,396 Speaker 2: you're support you have to win a war, and if 193 00:11:51,436 --> 00:11:54,196 Speaker 2: you don't win the war, many many, many, many, many, 194 00:11:54,276 --> 00:11:56,316 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of people will die, right, There's just 195 00:11:56,396 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 2: no doubt about that. When wars drag on, they exact 196 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:03,036 Speaker 2: an enormous human toll. So everybody's agreed we need to 197 00:12:03,036 --> 00:12:06,996 Speaker 2: get this war over with. But there's basically, actually there's 198 00:12:07,036 --> 00:12:10,756 Speaker 2: three options. And you know, Heyward Hansel has one option. 199 00:12:11,476 --> 00:12:14,556 Speaker 2: He wants to use bombs as sparingly as possible. It 200 00:12:14,636 --> 00:12:18,996 Speaker 2: is a complete and utter failure for reasons outside of 201 00:12:18,996 --> 00:12:23,516 Speaker 2: his control. Curtis L. May has another option. He wants 202 00:12:23,556 --> 00:12:30,356 Speaker 2: to napalm every city in Japan, which is brutal and 203 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:37,156 Speaker 2: unbelievably horrifying. But he would say, well, I don't have 204 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:39,836 Speaker 2: any other options now. The third option, of course, is 205 00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:44,556 Speaker 2: the option taken by in August of nineteen forty five 206 00:12:44,556 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 2: when we dropped two atomic bombs on Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Again, 207 00:12:48,356 --> 00:12:53,196 Speaker 2: another thing, another option that leaves us sort of leaves 208 00:12:53,236 --> 00:12:56,396 Speaker 2: all kinds of moral questions dangling. I just you know, 209 00:12:56,836 --> 00:13:02,076 Speaker 2: I have difficulty from my comfortable perch in twenty twenty 210 00:13:02,076 --> 00:13:06,076 Speaker 2: one passing judgment on people who didn't have any good 211 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:07,356 Speaker 2: options available to them. 212 00:13:07,716 --> 00:13:11,356 Speaker 3: Now, I understand I was trying to figure out as 213 00:13:11,356 --> 00:13:14,236 Speaker 3: I listened as I read why you were so reluctant 214 00:13:14,316 --> 00:13:16,996 Speaker 3: to take a moral stance here because you are not 215 00:13:17,076 --> 00:13:20,396 Speaker 3: shy about moral stances, And I thought, this is not 216 00:13:20,476 --> 00:13:23,876 Speaker 3: at all Gladwellian. You normally have a strong view about 217 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:26,396 Speaker 3: what's right and wrong. And as I listened to you, 218 00:13:26,516 --> 00:13:31,356 Speaker 3: now it clicked that they were stuck choosing between wrong 219 00:13:31,396 --> 00:13:34,556 Speaker 3: and wrong, and you appreciate and admire the fact that 220 00:13:34,836 --> 00:13:36,436 Speaker 3: they at least tried to do what was right. 221 00:13:37,436 --> 00:13:40,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's this is a side thing, but 222 00:13:40,356 --> 00:13:43,996 Speaker 2: this is an idea that I've become kind of obsessed 223 00:13:44,036 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 2: with recently. I've been doing a two episodes of my 224 00:13:49,116 --> 00:13:52,916 Speaker 2: podcast this season, Revision's History, on the dilemma of a 225 00:13:52,956 --> 00:14:00,916 Speaker 2: little small HBCU in New Orleans and the problem of 226 00:14:01,076 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 2: if you choose to educate lower income students, and if 227 00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:10,596 Speaker 2: you choose to serve them by keeping your tuition low, 228 00:14:11,636 --> 00:14:16,996 Speaker 2: you create all kinds of problems. Right, can't pay for anything, 229 00:14:17,676 --> 00:14:20,836 Speaker 2: your school is not considered to be prestigious. You, I mean, 230 00:14:21,196 --> 00:14:22,316 Speaker 2: you can go on and on and on and on 231 00:14:22,356 --> 00:14:26,196 Speaker 2: and on. And the president of the school told me, 232 00:14:26,276 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 2: he's like, you know, the problem with the way we 233 00:14:29,436 --> 00:14:32,516 Speaker 2: think about higher education is that we we don't consider 234 00:14:32,556 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 2: the degree of difficulty. Now, Adam, you know I'm raising 235 00:14:35,556 --> 00:14:38,636 Speaker 2: this with you because you are a former diver and 236 00:14:38,676 --> 00:14:42,836 Speaker 2: the great, the great contribution of diving to the world. 237 00:14:42,956 --> 00:14:46,676 Speaker 2: And I'm not I am not being flipp here. Honestly, 238 00:14:46,756 --> 00:14:50,316 Speaker 2: the one of the great contributions of your sport to 239 00:14:50,356 --> 00:14:52,996 Speaker 2: the world is that it introduced that phrase and that 240 00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:57,716 Speaker 2: concept degree of difficulty into common parlance. And it's a 241 00:14:58,036 --> 00:15:03,716 Speaker 2: crucial idea. It says that you cannot simply judge an 242 00:15:03,796 --> 00:15:08,036 Speaker 2: outcome all by itself. You have to judge the obstacles 243 00:15:08,076 --> 00:15:11,916 Speaker 2: that were that the person pursuing that goal had to 244 00:15:11,956 --> 00:15:15,236 Speaker 2: go through. Right, was faced with and this guy in 245 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:18,756 Speaker 2: New Orleans, he was like, the problem with HBCUs is 246 00:15:18,796 --> 00:15:21,396 Speaker 2: that no one gives us credit for the degree of 247 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:24,636 Speaker 2: difficulty involved in what we do. Right. I just thought 248 00:15:24,636 --> 00:15:29,076 Speaker 2: that was absolutely true. And you can go through all 249 00:15:29,236 --> 00:15:31,716 Speaker 2: manner of things in society. The one thing that was 250 00:15:31,756 --> 00:15:35,996 Speaker 2: absent from the debate this past summer about police and 251 00:15:36,036 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 2: by the way, a debate that I had been writing 252 00:15:40,796 --> 00:15:44,516 Speaker 2: about and arguing for police reform for twenty five years 253 00:15:44,516 --> 00:15:46,876 Speaker 2: at this point. But the one thing that was absent 254 00:15:46,916 --> 00:15:50,636 Speaker 2: from this summer was a sense of the degree of 255 00:15:50,636 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 2: difficulty involved in police work. It's really hard, right, really 256 00:15:55,596 --> 00:15:58,516 Speaker 2: really hard, and I wish that had been a part 257 00:15:58,556 --> 00:16:01,156 Speaker 2: of it, and it wasn't there to the same extent. 258 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:05,396 Speaker 2: And that's also what I feel about these characters back 259 00:16:05,436 --> 00:16:07,916 Speaker 2: in the Second World War is the degree of difficulty 260 00:16:07,956 --> 00:16:11,476 Speaker 2: was to the roof, and you just have to build 261 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:13,676 Speaker 2: that into your consideration of their actions. 262 00:16:14,196 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 3: I love that lens in part because one of my 263 00:16:16,956 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 3: biggest frustrations with diving is that the formula for a 264 00:16:20,276 --> 00:16:24,356 Speaker 3: degree of difficulty is almost completely bogused. How did you 265 00:16:24,436 --> 00:16:28,436 Speaker 3: decide that when somebody does a front four and a half, 266 00:16:28,516 --> 00:16:30,796 Speaker 3: that's a three point eight degree of difficulty on a 267 00:16:30,796 --> 00:16:34,356 Speaker 3: three meter, but when they do an inward three and 268 00:16:34,396 --> 00:16:37,596 Speaker 3: a half it's only a three point four. You could 269 00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:40,596 Speaker 3: change that scale dramatically and we would have different Olympic 270 00:16:40,596 --> 00:16:43,636 Speaker 3: gold medalists, we would have actually completely different dives done, 271 00:16:43,716 --> 00:16:46,316 Speaker 3: and we could have a whole rabbit hole about this, 272 00:16:46,356 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 3: which I'm very tempted to do, but I think it. 273 00:16:49,276 --> 00:16:52,636 Speaker 2: Hold on, hold on, hold on, Adam, this is like fantastic. 274 00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:56,196 Speaker 2: Are you saying that there is an underappreciated degree of 275 00:16:56,236 --> 00:16:58,836 Speaker 2: difficulty with the concept of degree of difficulty. 276 00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:05,956 Speaker 3: Minimum, there's an underappreciated degree of difficulty in asking people 277 00:17:06,076 --> 00:17:08,476 Speaker 3: who judge a sport to come up with a meaningful 278 00:17:08,556 --> 00:17:11,236 Speaker 3: quantitative metric for scoring the sport. 279 00:17:11,836 --> 00:17:14,956 Speaker 2: Adam, Adam, you know more about diving than ninety nine 280 00:17:14,996 --> 00:17:19,596 Speaker 2: point nine percent of humanity. You are a You are 281 00:17:19,636 --> 00:17:22,196 Speaker 2: a prominent psychologist who writes no matter of things, and 282 00:17:22,276 --> 00:17:25,116 Speaker 2: you have never written about this. Do I have to 283 00:17:25,156 --> 00:17:28,476 Speaker 2: take this idea from you? Can I interview about this? 284 00:17:28,876 --> 00:17:32,076 Speaker 3: I will give it to you. It's yours right now. 285 00:17:32,316 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 2: This is just the most interesting thing that I'm sorry, 286 00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 2: this is like fantastic, This is just amazing that even 287 00:17:38,356 --> 00:17:40,156 Speaker 2: divingt degree of difficulty wrong. 288 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:46,036 Speaker 3: Well, but isn't that isn't that part of the point 289 00:17:46,276 --> 00:17:50,436 Speaker 3: that Well, I mean, first of all, inventing something almost 290 00:17:50,036 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 3: almost always means you get it wrong, because the hard 291 00:17:53,356 --> 00:17:56,356 Speaker 3: work of creating it usually blinds you to the different 292 00:17:56,396 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 3: hard work of optimizing it. But also that the concept 293 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:09,876 Speaker 3: of degree of difficulty is so much more complicated everywhere else, 294 00:18:09,916 --> 00:18:11,556 Speaker 3: and the fact that we couldn't get it right in diving. 295 00:18:11,756 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 3: It's like all you have to do is, you know, 296 00:18:14,236 --> 00:18:16,676 Speaker 3: measure how high people jump, how fast they can spin, 297 00:18:17,716 --> 00:18:20,476 Speaker 3: and you know how much control you have. Actually, there's 298 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:22,596 Speaker 3: a there's a whole metric of jobs for a degree 299 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:25,996 Speaker 3: of difficulty, right, we can we can measure job complexity 300 00:18:26,636 --> 00:18:30,196 Speaker 3: and know that when a job has higher degree of difficulty, 301 00:18:30,396 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 3: intelligence seems to become more important. And oh, there's there's 302 00:18:35,036 --> 00:18:36,436 Speaker 3: so much we can talk about here, but I want 303 00:18:36,436 --> 00:18:38,116 Speaker 3: to I want to get back to the one of 304 00:18:38,116 --> 00:18:43,116 Speaker 3: the central questions that applying degree of difficulty to moral 305 00:18:43,116 --> 00:18:46,836 Speaker 3: dilemmas raises, which is, once you recognize you're in a 306 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 3: situation with high degree of difficulty, what do you do? 307 00:18:50,036 --> 00:18:52,596 Speaker 3: What are your what are your takeaways from from studying 308 00:18:52,716 --> 00:18:54,276 Speaker 3: these bombers. 309 00:18:54,316 --> 00:18:57,076 Speaker 2: The great mistake the bomber mafia makes is they is 310 00:18:57,116 --> 00:19:01,396 Speaker 2: they like many technological innovators, by the way, is they 311 00:19:01,676 --> 00:19:04,876 Speaker 2: they they do not have the imagination and it's not 312 00:19:04,916 --> 00:19:07,636 Speaker 2: a fault, but no one would to come up with 313 00:19:07,756 --> 00:19:14,316 Speaker 2: all of the possible complations of their dream. And this 314 00:19:14,396 --> 00:19:17,036 Speaker 2: is the time honor problem of the innovator, right that 315 00:19:17,556 --> 00:19:19,916 Speaker 2: the thing that makes them good at innovating in their 316 00:19:19,956 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 2: specific rate region is the narrowness and and intensity of 317 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:31,876 Speaker 2: their focus. They don't They're not distracted. They're like I 318 00:19:32,036 --> 00:19:34,316 Speaker 2: on the prize, right. But the problem is that when 319 00:19:34,316 --> 00:19:37,996 Speaker 2: they take that idea in the real world, that becomes 320 00:19:37,996 --> 00:19:40,436 Speaker 2: a liability all of a sudden. You've got to think 321 00:19:40,436 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 2: about fifty things that never occurred to you tomorrow. So 322 00:19:43,516 --> 00:19:46,156 Speaker 2: the skills that get you to the real world are 323 00:19:46,196 --> 00:19:48,876 Speaker 2: the skills that also impede you once you reach the 324 00:19:48,876 --> 00:19:49,676 Speaker 2: real world. 325 00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:53,476 Speaker 3: Well, okay, so you have a parallel here which I 326 00:19:53,476 --> 00:19:57,476 Speaker 3: didn't see until just now, between the bomber's dilemma and 327 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:00,636 Speaker 3: how we think about degree of difficulty in diving, which 328 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:02,876 Speaker 3: is I think the central tension in diving into greed 329 00:20:02,916 --> 00:20:06,396 Speaker 3: difficulty is do you base it on how hard it 330 00:20:06,476 --> 00:20:09,436 Speaker 3: is to do at all or how hard it is 331 00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:09,956 Speaker 3: to do well? 332 00:20:11,116 --> 00:20:11,236 Speaker 2: Right? 333 00:20:11,316 --> 00:20:13,196 Speaker 3: Like, there there are some dives that only a few 334 00:20:13,236 --> 00:20:16,796 Speaker 3: people in the world can even make, and those some 335 00:20:16,796 --> 00:20:19,356 Speaker 3: people would argue those should have the highest degree difficulty, 336 00:20:19,636 --> 00:20:22,156 Speaker 3: and others would say, no, you take the the hard 337 00:20:22,196 --> 00:20:25,036 Speaker 3: dive that everybody does but everybody misses, and that's the 338 00:20:25,076 --> 00:20:28,276 Speaker 3: dive that gets the highest degree difficulty. Your version of this, 339 00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:34,356 Speaker 3: I think is is precision bombing, which is you it's like, okay, 340 00:20:34,396 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 3: how you know how many bombs can you drop or 341 00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:41,196 Speaker 3: you know how much? How much can you terrify or 342 00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:45,276 Speaker 3: demoralize a city with your bombs versus can you hit 343 00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:49,636 Speaker 3: your target perfectly? What is what does that teach us 344 00:20:49,716 --> 00:20:53,596 Speaker 3: about what's really difficult? Is it the execution or is 345 00:20:53,636 --> 00:20:56,076 Speaker 3: it the ability to show up in the first place? 346 00:20:56,716 --> 00:20:58,756 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's a really good question. 347 00:21:01,756 --> 00:21:05,796 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to cop out and say bose 348 00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 2: or it depends. I can tell you what interests me more, 349 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:16,276 Speaker 2: which is I'm more interested? Particularly this is a weird 350 00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:19,476 Speaker 2: thing to say, particularly as I get older in the execution, 351 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:26,116 Speaker 2: because more and more I find myself I am interested 352 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:31,476 Speaker 2: and fascinated and amused by people's obsessive dreams. But what 353 00:21:31,636 --> 00:21:37,116 Speaker 2: impresses me is execution. That you can just do it 354 00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 2: in a way that so everyone starts tries to do 355 00:21:40,876 --> 00:21:43,996 Speaker 2: the same thing, there are three people who pull it off. 356 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:48,476 Speaker 2: Those are the three. That's what impresses me. Is like, 357 00:21:48,916 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 2: you know, it's like, you know, any of us can 358 00:21:53,996 --> 00:21:57,396 Speaker 2: make an attempt at Mount Everest or run a marathon, 359 00:21:57,836 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 2: but a handful of people get to the top or 360 00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:04,596 Speaker 2: break you know, two hours and thirty minutes. Those are 361 00:22:04,636 --> 00:22:06,836 Speaker 2: the people I take my hat off to Okay. 362 00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:09,716 Speaker 3: That speaks to something you've alluded to a couple of times, 363 00:22:09,956 --> 00:22:13,276 Speaker 3: and something you made me rethink in this book, which 364 00:22:13,356 --> 00:22:16,956 Speaker 3: is the idea of obsession. I have always thought of 365 00:22:16,996 --> 00:22:20,356 Speaker 3: obsession as something bad. I think of people with OCD, 366 00:22:21,036 --> 00:22:24,996 Speaker 3: I think of an obsessive stalker. And you you have 367 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:28,116 Speaker 3: a very different take on obsession. I think you even 368 00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:30,356 Speaker 3: see it as a beautiful thing. And I want to 369 00:22:30,396 --> 00:22:30,796 Speaker 3: hear more. 370 00:22:31,716 --> 00:22:35,836 Speaker 2: I do I, and I wonder why I do. I 371 00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:37,236 Speaker 2: don't know if I have a good answer to that. 372 00:22:37,876 --> 00:22:40,436 Speaker 2: I don't. It's not as if the easy thing would 373 00:22:40,436 --> 00:22:42,916 Speaker 2: be to say that I you know, I grew up 374 00:22:42,916 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 2: with an example of obsessiveness. 375 00:22:44,276 --> 00:22:45,636 Speaker 1: Actually I didn't. 376 00:22:47,636 --> 00:22:50,436 Speaker 2: Neither of my parents could even plausibly be described as 377 00:22:50,476 --> 00:22:55,756 Speaker 2: even coming close to that standard. My brother is the 378 00:22:55,836 --> 00:22:58,956 Speaker 2: least obsessive, although I mean he's sort of, he's not. 379 00:22:59,436 --> 00:23:00,236 Speaker 1: He's not obsessive. 380 00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:05,076 Speaker 2: Were dabblers my whole but Dad's whole thing was he 381 00:23:05,076 --> 00:23:07,196 Speaker 2: loved doing lots of things, even if he did them badly. 382 00:23:07,236 --> 00:23:11,876 Speaker 2: That was his favorite thing. He built a greenhouse in 383 00:23:11,916 --> 00:23:18,316 Speaker 2: her backyard, and he was so proud of how inexpertly. 384 00:23:16,516 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 1: He built it. 385 00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:20,076 Speaker 2: He would show off all of the crazy angles and 386 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:23,356 Speaker 2: the gaps, and the he thought that was hilarious. 387 00:23:24,436 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 3: Okay, I have a few things that I'm curious about then. 388 00:23:26,796 --> 00:23:30,756 Speaker 3: The first one is you called yourself a dabbler, and 389 00:23:30,836 --> 00:23:33,756 Speaker 3: yet you're also an elite runner. I think you once 390 00:23:33,876 --> 00:23:38,116 Speaker 3: beat the Canadian record holder if I remember correctly. Isn't 391 00:23:38,156 --> 00:23:41,116 Speaker 3: running the most obsessive sport ever? I mean you literally 392 00:23:41,236 --> 00:23:44,636 Speaker 3: just do the same thing over and over, step, step. 393 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:48,996 Speaker 2: The opposite, the opposite. So how many when you were 394 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:52,636 Speaker 2: diving as a kid, how many hours would you spend 395 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:53,116 Speaker 2: in the pool? 396 00:23:53,716 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 3: I mean, actually in the pool, probably four seconds a dive. 397 00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:00,996 Speaker 2: From the time you left the house to the time 398 00:24:01,036 --> 00:24:02,996 Speaker 2: you got home. Again, what are we talking about time 399 00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:04,156 Speaker 2: devoted to the task? 400 00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:06,996 Speaker 3: I'm three hours during the school year, probably eight or 401 00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:07,756 Speaker 3: nine in the summer. 402 00:24:08,236 --> 00:24:09,036 Speaker 1: Okay. 403 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:13,796 Speaker 2: In my entire time as a you know, I was 404 00:24:13,836 --> 00:24:16,556 Speaker 2: a very good age class runner. In my entire time 405 00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:18,796 Speaker 2: as a very good age class runner, I never never 406 00:24:19,596 --> 00:24:22,516 Speaker 2: spent more than an hour a day running never, and 407 00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:25,916 Speaker 2: I never ran more than five days a week. And 408 00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 2: by the way, nor did anyone else I know. In fact, 409 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:30,876 Speaker 2: and if I had done that, I would have gotten 410 00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:34,956 Speaker 2: I would have gotten hell from my coach, he would 411 00:24:34,956 --> 00:24:38,916 Speaker 2: have said, you are destroying your running is all about restraint. 412 00:24:39,116 --> 00:24:39,436 Speaker 3: You know what. 413 00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:43,676 Speaker 2: The little adage they repeat to you when you start 414 00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:47,636 Speaker 2: out running is trained down, Strain for tomorrow. 415 00:24:47,236 --> 00:24:47,916 Speaker 1: Is another day. 416 00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 2: Running is the op It's the anti obsessives pastime. It's 417 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:58,596 Speaker 2: all about restraint. It's all about never only when you 418 00:24:58,676 --> 00:25:00,596 Speaker 2: race do you push yourself to the edge. At all 419 00:25:00,636 --> 00:25:05,556 Speaker 2: of the times, you hold yourself in check. Right the coach, 420 00:25:05,636 --> 00:25:07,516 Speaker 2: I have a I'm in training right now for this 421 00:25:07,636 --> 00:25:09,756 Speaker 2: mile race I'm doing, and I have a This guy 422 00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 2: is helping me coach, and he looks at my my 423 00:25:13,076 --> 00:25:15,716 Speaker 2: workouts online. You know what he tells me. He's like, yeah, 424 00:25:15,756 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 2: you need to probably take a little more recovery on that, 425 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:22,076 Speaker 2: or you should take some more days off. He's making 426 00:25:22,116 --> 00:25:26,076 Speaker 2: sure I'm not obsessive runners. You totally misunderstand running. This 427 00:25:26,116 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 2: is probably why you don't run. You don't get it. 428 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:30,636 Speaker 3: That might be true. 429 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:34,916 Speaker 2: You're bringing your crazy eight hour a day memories from 430 00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:38,196 Speaker 2: childhood to bear on a completely different sport. 431 00:25:38,756 --> 00:25:41,956 Speaker 3: I don't know you have bursts of obsession in running. 432 00:25:42,196 --> 00:25:45,436 Speaker 3: I've heard about your stair routines, for example. 433 00:25:45,716 --> 00:25:49,756 Speaker 2: No, those are it's it's an obsession that I used 434 00:25:49,796 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 2: to get together with three very good friends of mine 435 00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:55,436 Speaker 2: and we would do a workout on the stairs in 436 00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:58,236 Speaker 2: Fork Green Park and Brooklyn. To say that was obsessive 437 00:25:58,676 --> 00:26:03,876 Speaker 2: is nuts. It was totally fun. We would like you 438 00:26:03,916 --> 00:26:06,316 Speaker 2: have a long recovery because you jog down the stairs 439 00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:08,556 Speaker 2: and you sprint up them on the job down the stairs, 440 00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:12,276 Speaker 2: you like gossip and ketch up on stuff and chad 441 00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:15,156 Speaker 2: and then you just have a little zip up the 442 00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:18,116 Speaker 2: stairs and it's just like it's the furthest thing. You 443 00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:21,196 Speaker 2: don't know what you're talking about. Meanwhile, you're executing these 444 00:26:21,236 --> 00:26:25,156 Speaker 2: insanely complicated dives that if you if you're off by 445 00:26:25,156 --> 00:26:30,276 Speaker 2: two inches, you lose. This is nothing, there's nothing in 446 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 2: common with But when what I'm. 447 00:26:31,396 --> 00:26:34,316 Speaker 3: Up to, well, I have to tell you that one 448 00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:36,236 Speaker 3: of your so called friends said that when he went 449 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:37,796 Speaker 3: with you for the first time, he wasn't sure if 450 00:26:37,796 --> 00:26:41,476 Speaker 3: he was going to vomit or die. So not everyone's 451 00:26:41,516 --> 00:26:42,716 Speaker 3: experience mirror is yours. 452 00:26:42,796 --> 00:26:46,116 Speaker 2: But on every other occasion than he smoked me, So 453 00:26:46,236 --> 00:26:49,756 Speaker 2: I know what he's talking about. Anyway. 454 00:26:49,796 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 3: The other the other thing I wanted to ask you 455 00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:56,996 Speaker 3: about obsession is I think about this research by Valoranz 456 00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:01,756 Speaker 3: two kinds of passion. He calls them obsess obsessive passion 457 00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:06,236 Speaker 3: and harmonious passion, and he says, obsessed obsessive passion is 458 00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:11,516 Speaker 3: basically it's it's externsically motivated, is driven by guilt, by pressure, 459 00:27:12,396 --> 00:27:17,756 Speaker 3: by this, you know, compulsiveness that really undermines people's ongoing 460 00:27:17,796 --> 00:27:22,276 Speaker 3: interest and commitment. Whereas harmonious passion, instead of feeling like 461 00:27:22,316 --> 00:27:24,716 Speaker 3: you constantly have to push yourself to do it, you're 462 00:27:24,716 --> 00:27:28,676 Speaker 3: pulled in by the activity. You're interested, You're intrinsically motivated, 463 00:27:28,756 --> 00:27:32,996 Speaker 3: you're curious, you're excited, and your energy is sustained by 464 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:36,996 Speaker 3: your enthusiasm. And I wonder if if that's part of 465 00:27:37,036 --> 00:27:39,396 Speaker 3: what you're describing, or if you think there's actually still 466 00:27:39,436 --> 00:27:41,996 Speaker 3: an upside to the obsessive part of passion. 467 00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:46,116 Speaker 2: Well, it's funny that the word I was waiting for 468 00:27:46,196 --> 00:27:49,916 Speaker 2: you to say in what you in that in that, 469 00:27:50,236 --> 00:28:00,116 Speaker 2: in that little dichotomy you described, was pleasure. So I 470 00:28:00,316 --> 00:28:04,676 Speaker 2: grant I suppose that there are there are different motivation, 471 00:28:04,836 --> 00:28:10,996 Speaker 2: initial motivations for certain kinds of obsessive pursuits. But to me, 472 00:28:11,076 --> 00:28:13,996 Speaker 2: the real issue is not why you start, but where 473 00:28:14,036 --> 00:28:18,996 Speaker 2: you end up and does the immersion bring you pleasure? 474 00:28:19,396 --> 00:28:25,716 Speaker 2: And it always amazes me how little that word is 475 00:28:25,996 --> 00:28:29,116 Speaker 2: used in particularly in connection with people's work. I always 476 00:28:29,116 --> 00:28:32,156 Speaker 2: ask people, well, do you find you your work fun? 477 00:28:33,116 --> 00:28:36,796 Speaker 2: To mean as simply the most important question, And I'm 478 00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:38,836 Speaker 2: not interested in some people. We have all kinds of 479 00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:40,676 Speaker 2: reasons why we work. Some people work because they have 480 00:28:40,676 --> 00:28:43,076 Speaker 2: a family to support. Some of them will work because 481 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:44,916 Speaker 2: they would be bored otherwise, I go on, some of 482 00:28:44,996 --> 00:28:47,396 Speaker 2: will work because their parents would, you know, disdain them 483 00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:50,676 Speaker 2: if they didn't. Whatever. The question is, once you're at 484 00:28:50,716 --> 00:28:53,996 Speaker 2: work and immersed in it, are you enjoying yourself? And 485 00:28:54,596 --> 00:28:58,756 Speaker 2: you know, when I think about the people I like 486 00:28:58,916 --> 00:29:03,436 Speaker 2: working with, they're all people I don't. I like working 487 00:29:03,436 --> 00:29:05,876 Speaker 2: with people who do a good job, sure everyone does, 488 00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:08,436 Speaker 2: but I really like working with people who are enjoying themselves. 489 00:29:08,516 --> 00:29:09,276 Speaker 1: That's really what. 490 00:29:11,196 --> 00:29:15,836 Speaker 2: Compels me to and I think of for some people, 491 00:29:15,876 --> 00:29:19,476 Speaker 2: the route to enjoyment is obsession, right, It's like that's 492 00:29:19,796 --> 00:29:23,196 Speaker 2: you get singular in your pursuit because it just brings 493 00:29:23,196 --> 00:29:27,996 Speaker 2: you joy. I don't understand why those words are so 494 00:29:28,156 --> 00:29:32,036 Speaker 2: rarely used in this context. So like to go back 495 00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:34,756 Speaker 2: to the bottom Offie for a moment. They're in the 496 00:29:34,796 --> 00:29:37,476 Speaker 2: middle of Alabama in the nineteen thirties. You could look 497 00:29:37,516 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 2: at them objectively and you could say these losers off 498 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:42,836 Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere pursuing an idea they'll never 499 00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:45,956 Speaker 2: go anywhere. Or you could say these are a group 500 00:29:45,956 --> 00:29:49,276 Speaker 2: of people who have successfully found a place where they 501 00:29:49,316 --> 00:29:55,236 Speaker 2: can find joy in their passion and work, and that 502 00:29:55,316 --> 00:29:58,356 Speaker 2: makes them winners. No one else is having joy in 503 00:29:58,396 --> 00:29:59,916 Speaker 2: the army in nineteen thirty five. 504 00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:05,356 Speaker 3: Wow. So when you talk about obsession, then you're talking 505 00:30:05,396 --> 00:30:10,156 Speaker 3: about a single minded focus to pursue mastery in a 506 00:30:10,196 --> 00:30:11,316 Speaker 3: way that brings joy. 507 00:30:11,836 --> 00:30:16,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, but the social aspect is really crucial here. It's 508 00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:20,356 Speaker 2: funny because you know, the this book, The Bar of Mafia, 509 00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 2: is the really the first book that I've ever done 510 00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:27,996 Speaker 2: where from the from the very beginning of this book, 511 00:30:28,036 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 2: it was a team effort. 512 00:30:29,796 --> 00:30:30,436 Speaker 1: It literally. 513 00:30:30,516 --> 00:30:34,076 Speaker 2: I know my name is on the cover, but that's 514 00:30:34,116 --> 00:30:37,956 Speaker 2: a misnomer. There's six people, seven people at Pushkin who 515 00:30:38,036 --> 00:30:41,076 Speaker 2: played as large or in some of thess larger role 516 00:30:41,116 --> 00:30:43,116 Speaker 2: than me and putting this together. I've never done that 517 00:30:43,156 --> 00:30:46,836 Speaker 2: before ever, not I can't even I was not the 518 00:30:46,876 --> 00:30:48,796 Speaker 2: guy in college who you know had a team of 519 00:30:48,796 --> 00:30:50,716 Speaker 2: people we were to No, no, no, no. I never did 520 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:52,876 Speaker 2: a team. I was never on a basketball team, never 521 00:30:52,916 --> 00:30:57,356 Speaker 2: did any team sports, never teams. Not in my I 522 00:30:57,396 --> 00:30:59,516 Speaker 2: did not. I didn't even I wasn't a kid who 523 00:30:59,516 --> 00:31:02,356 Speaker 2: went home from school and did homework with his dad. 524 00:31:02,916 --> 00:31:07,476 Speaker 2: Never happened, Right, this is not doing stuff with other 525 00:31:07,516 --> 00:31:09,876 Speaker 2: people is not something I have ever done on and 526 00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:12,556 Speaker 2: I did it with this book. And you know what, 527 00:31:13,036 --> 00:31:15,636 Speaker 2: this is most fun book I've ever done. Never had 528 00:31:15,636 --> 00:31:18,756 Speaker 2: so much fun writing a book. It's like fantastic, right 529 00:31:18,876 --> 00:31:22,316 Speaker 2: it's not? And why because everyone else was as into 530 00:31:22,356 --> 00:31:26,796 Speaker 2: this idea as I was, right and pursuing different parts 531 00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:30,756 Speaker 2: of it. And that's so like I. You know, here 532 00:31:30,796 --> 00:31:33,476 Speaker 2: I am writing about a group of people who find 533 00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:37,196 Speaker 2: joy in each other's obsession, and I am with a 534 00:31:37,196 --> 00:31:40,716 Speaker 2: group of people finding joy with each other's obsession. It 535 00:31:40,796 --> 00:31:44,596 Speaker 2: was as lovely at my you know, at my advanced age. 536 00:31:45,116 --> 00:31:47,596 Speaker 2: I'm much older than you, Adam, I get to say 537 00:31:47,636 --> 00:31:51,556 Speaker 2: things like that. At my advanced age, I discovered this 538 00:31:52,076 --> 00:31:58,236 Speaker 2: fantastic thing called, you know, strength and numbers. 539 00:31:56,836 --> 00:32:04,516 Speaker 3: The joy of shared obsession. Yes, I love that. 540 00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:09,276 Speaker 2: That was Grant and Gladwell Clubhouse Part one. After the break, 541 00:32:09,796 --> 00:32:25,916 Speaker 2: we meet again to discuss Adam's book Think Again. Adam, 542 00:32:25,956 --> 00:32:28,636 Speaker 2: can you can you give us an overview of Think Again? 543 00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:31,636 Speaker 3: The core idea it builds on some brilliant work that 544 00:32:31,676 --> 00:32:35,276 Speaker 3: my colleague Phil Tetlock did, and the premise is that 545 00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:39,676 Speaker 3: we spend a lot of our life with these mindsets 546 00:32:39,756 --> 00:32:43,196 Speaker 3: of occupations that we never have worked in. We find 547 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:47,076 Speaker 3: ourselves thinking like preachers, prosecutors, and politicians more often than 548 00:32:47,076 --> 00:32:49,476 Speaker 3: we would want to admit. When I'm in preacher mode, 549 00:32:49,516 --> 00:32:53,276 Speaker 3: I'm trying to proselytize. When I'm a prosecutor, I'm trying 550 00:32:53,316 --> 00:32:55,996 Speaker 3: to win a case and prove you wrong. When I'm 551 00:32:55,996 --> 00:32:59,756 Speaker 3: a politician, I have a constituent, I'm trying to get 552 00:32:59,796 --> 00:33:02,396 Speaker 3: their approval, so I'm doing all this campaigning and lobbying. 553 00:33:02,796 --> 00:33:05,716 Speaker 3: My big worry with preaching and prosecuting is that people 554 00:33:05,796 --> 00:33:08,996 Speaker 3: are not willing to think again because I'm right, you're wrong. 555 00:33:09,396 --> 00:33:12,596 Speaker 1: You're the one who needs to change. I'm good. When 556 00:33:12,596 --> 00:33:13,036 Speaker 1: people are. 557 00:33:12,956 --> 00:33:15,396 Speaker 3: In politician mode, they look a little bit more flexible, 558 00:33:15,436 --> 00:33:17,436 Speaker 3: but all they're doing is they're flip flopping what they 559 00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:20,316 Speaker 3: say in order to communicate what they think their audience 560 00:33:20,356 --> 00:33:23,436 Speaker 3: wants to hear, and so if it looks like they're rethinking, 561 00:33:23,436 --> 00:33:25,716 Speaker 3: they're doing it at the wrong time for the wrong reasons, 562 00:33:26,196 --> 00:33:28,356 Speaker 3: or they're just towing the party line and appealing to 563 00:33:28,356 --> 00:33:32,676 Speaker 3: their tribe without actually changing their internal beliefs. My hope 564 00:33:32,756 --> 00:33:34,316 Speaker 3: is that people will think a little bit more like 565 00:33:34,356 --> 00:33:37,396 Speaker 3: scientists and say, you know what, I don't have to 566 00:33:37,396 --> 00:33:40,196 Speaker 3: believe everything I think. I don't have to internalize every 567 00:33:40,236 --> 00:33:43,196 Speaker 3: emotion I feel when I start to form an opinion 568 00:33:43,356 --> 00:33:45,916 Speaker 3: that's just a hypothesis. Let me go out into the world, 569 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:50,196 Speaker 3: run some experiments, observe, talk to people, and test the hypothesis. 570 00:33:50,676 --> 00:33:53,396 Speaker 3: And I should be then surrounding myself with people who 571 00:33:53,596 --> 00:33:56,516 Speaker 3: don't just agree with my conclusions, but actually challenge my 572 00:33:56,516 --> 00:33:58,836 Speaker 3: thought process. And the goal of all that is is 573 00:33:58,876 --> 00:34:01,716 Speaker 3: to try to break us free of overconfidence cycles where 574 00:34:01,756 --> 00:34:03,996 Speaker 3: we take pride in our knowledge, we have too much 575 00:34:04,036 --> 00:34:06,956 Speaker 3: conviction that leads us to confirmation bias, and then we 576 00:34:07,036 --> 00:34:09,116 Speaker 3: become a little bit arrogant. What I want to do 577 00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:12,156 Speaker 3: is activate rethinking cycles where we have the humility to 578 00:34:12,196 --> 00:34:14,956 Speaker 3: know what we don't know. We doubt some of our convictions. 579 00:34:14,956 --> 00:34:17,476 Speaker 3: That makes us curious to go and discover new things, 580 00:34:17,796 --> 00:34:21,476 Speaker 3: and that reinforces this mindset of being a lifelong learner, saying, wow, 581 00:34:21,556 --> 00:34:22,476 Speaker 3: I just learned something. 582 00:34:22,996 --> 00:34:24,356 Speaker 1: There's so much more to learn. 583 00:34:26,876 --> 00:34:32,316 Speaker 2: Well, you have written another, uh wonderful book, and I 584 00:34:32,676 --> 00:34:35,516 Speaker 2: find it. Actually there's so many fascinating things. My only 585 00:34:35,556 --> 00:34:37,356 Speaker 2: critique of this I have a critique of this book. 586 00:34:37,196 --> 00:34:39,116 Speaker 1: By the way, I hope you have more than one. 587 00:34:39,196 --> 00:34:42,116 Speaker 2: I have several, but my my large one, which is 588 00:34:42,156 --> 00:34:48,396 Speaker 2: a is it's four books. I'm reading this book. It's like, 589 00:34:48,436 --> 00:34:51,396 Speaker 2: why you I You're like jumping ahead of the next 590 00:34:51,436 --> 00:34:53,196 Speaker 2: study and I'm not done with the one. You're wrong, 591 00:34:54,316 --> 00:34:57,196 Speaker 2: I I either you either you have to you have to, 592 00:34:57,276 --> 00:35:01,116 Speaker 2: like you know, slow down and write, write and chop 593 00:35:01,156 --> 00:35:03,756 Speaker 2: your ideas into pieces and devote. Oh, you have to 594 00:35:03,756 --> 00:35:06,476 Speaker 2: write longer books. You can't do you can't keep doing 595 00:35:06,516 --> 00:35:08,956 Speaker 2: this and like race it anyway, that's a it's a. 596 00:35:09,596 --> 00:35:15,156 Speaker 2: It's a it's a. It's battery designed is disguised as criticism. 597 00:35:15,636 --> 00:35:18,956 Speaker 2: But I wanted to start. I kept thinking when I 598 00:35:18,996 --> 00:35:21,236 Speaker 2: was reading this book, how does this fit in with 599 00:35:21,516 --> 00:35:25,156 Speaker 2: Adam's previous books? And I'm wondering, do we have a 600 00:35:25,276 --> 00:35:31,876 Speaker 2: kind of emerging Adam Grant's philosophy of life. Can you 601 00:35:31,876 --> 00:35:35,996 Speaker 2: talk about how does this one fit with your previous books? 602 00:35:37,076 --> 00:35:40,396 Speaker 3: I think this it's an interesting question, and I will 603 00:35:40,396 --> 00:35:44,356 Speaker 3: accept your backhanded compliment any day. Thank you for the 604 00:35:44,436 --> 00:35:46,876 Speaker 3: enthusiasm and also the criticism, which I look forward to 605 00:35:46,956 --> 00:35:50,436 Speaker 3: more of. I guess this book is sort of a 606 00:35:50,476 --> 00:35:53,996 Speaker 3: meta book in that in each of the books I've 607 00:35:53,996 --> 00:35:56,876 Speaker 3: written before, what I've tried to do is I've tried 608 00:35:56,916 --> 00:35:59,196 Speaker 3: to get people to rethink something that I think that 609 00:35:59,236 --> 00:36:03,076 Speaker 3: they've gotten wrong, or maybe an assumption that's been incomplete. 610 00:36:04,756 --> 00:36:08,676 Speaker 2: The I mean, but do you What I want is 611 00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:11,716 Speaker 2: whether you think there is a kind of Adam Grand 612 00:36:11,796 --> 00:36:15,676 Speaker 2: ideology that's emerging from writing all these Are you getting 613 00:36:15,716 --> 00:36:17,636 Speaker 2: a kind of sense of well, wait a minute, here 614 00:36:17,716 --> 00:36:19,796 Speaker 2: is how I see the world, and if you read 615 00:36:19,836 --> 00:36:23,036 Speaker 2: all my books you'll get this Grantean vision. 616 00:36:24,396 --> 00:36:27,476 Speaker 3: Yes, although it would be a little ironic to commit 617 00:36:27,516 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 3: to an ideology because then I'm not staying open to 618 00:36:30,676 --> 00:36:32,516 Speaker 3: rethinking my opinions and beliefs. 619 00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:35,036 Speaker 2: Am I No, No, you could have a component, you 620 00:36:35,036 --> 00:36:39,916 Speaker 2: could have ideologies, which is that you revisit your ideology. 621 00:36:39,956 --> 00:36:40,596 Speaker 1: That's fine. 622 00:36:40,836 --> 00:36:42,756 Speaker 3: No, I think I think there is a there's an 623 00:36:42,796 --> 00:36:46,196 Speaker 3: overarching thread that runs through all my work, which I 624 00:36:46,436 --> 00:36:48,516 Speaker 3: didn't see until I'd written a couple of books. 625 00:36:49,236 --> 00:36:51,436 Speaker 1: The thread is that the. 626 00:36:51,436 --> 00:36:56,036 Speaker 3: Very things that you think are critical for success in life, 627 00:36:56,596 --> 00:36:59,996 Speaker 3: I can actually be attained through building character. And I 628 00:37:00,036 --> 00:37:02,556 Speaker 3: think that my work has looked at different kinds of 629 00:37:02,596 --> 00:37:06,156 Speaker 3: character strengths and said, you don't have to choose between 630 00:37:06,316 --> 00:37:11,396 Speaker 3: your goals and those virtues. It's generosity, or now it's 631 00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:13,116 Speaker 3: you know, it's humility. And so I guess what I'm 632 00:37:13,156 --> 00:37:16,476 Speaker 3: looking for at large is a way to align character 633 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:18,796 Speaker 3: with with achievement. 634 00:37:19,116 --> 00:37:20,996 Speaker 1: How's that? Yeah? 635 00:37:21,396 --> 00:37:26,116 Speaker 2: No, that that actually that fits with That's what I've 636 00:37:26,156 --> 00:37:28,156 Speaker 2: always sort of sensed in. 637 00:37:28,116 --> 00:37:29,356 Speaker 3: Well, why didn't you just tell me that a few 638 00:37:29,396 --> 00:37:31,316 Speaker 3: years ago, because then I would have understood who I was. 639 00:37:31,276 --> 00:37:32,396 Speaker 1: And what I was trying to achieve. 640 00:37:32,636 --> 00:37:35,716 Speaker 2: No, No, but I'm curious. I mean, because I'm always 641 00:37:36,036 --> 00:37:41,876 Speaker 2: very attracted to religious themes in things to sort of bear, 642 00:37:42,076 --> 00:37:45,636 Speaker 2: particularly if they're kind of slightly sublimated. But it always 643 00:37:45,636 --> 00:37:48,036 Speaker 2: struck me that there was some there was some kind 644 00:37:48,076 --> 00:37:52,156 Speaker 2: of moral case being made in your books that maybe 645 00:37:52,156 --> 00:37:56,156 Speaker 2: you weren't making explicitly, but that there was something about 646 00:37:56,196 --> 00:37:59,756 Speaker 2: reading a book that felt very comfortable to someone who 647 00:37:59,876 --> 00:38:05,236 Speaker 2: was used to thinking about the world in terms of character, ethics, morality, 648 00:38:05,636 --> 00:38:08,676 Speaker 2: those kinds of things. Like if I was thinking, if 649 00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:12,636 Speaker 2: I had a Bible study of evangelicals and I said, 650 00:38:12,876 --> 00:38:16,276 Speaker 2: this week, we're not reading the New Testament, We're going 651 00:38:16,316 --> 00:38:20,116 Speaker 2: to read the works of Adam Grant. I think actually 652 00:38:21,156 --> 00:38:23,636 Speaker 2: people with that kind of world would be very at 653 00:38:23,676 --> 00:38:25,396 Speaker 2: home with the arguments that you're making. 654 00:38:27,916 --> 00:38:28,636 Speaker 1: That's interesting. 655 00:38:29,236 --> 00:38:34,356 Speaker 3: I love it when ancient wisdom matches up with modern science. 656 00:38:35,196 --> 00:38:38,756 Speaker 3: And I think where the ancient wisdom often leaves me 657 00:38:38,836 --> 00:38:43,116 Speaker 3: short is around you know, Okay, a lot for me 658 00:38:43,156 --> 00:38:46,676 Speaker 3: at least, a lot of the principles and recommendations that 659 00:38:46,716 --> 00:38:50,356 Speaker 3: come out of religious traditions are missing the nuance about 660 00:38:50,356 --> 00:38:51,836 Speaker 3: how do you actually do this in life? 661 00:38:52,436 --> 00:38:52,636 Speaker 1: Right? 662 00:38:52,676 --> 00:38:54,836 Speaker 3: So, yeah, of course you want to be a generous person, 663 00:38:55,276 --> 00:38:57,076 Speaker 3: but how do you give to others in a way 664 00:38:57,116 --> 00:38:59,836 Speaker 3: that prevents you or protects you from burning out or 665 00:38:59,876 --> 00:39:03,356 Speaker 3: just getting burned by the most selfish takers around. Yes, 666 00:39:03,596 --> 00:39:05,996 Speaker 3: I want to be humble, but I don't want to 667 00:39:05,996 --> 00:39:09,476 Speaker 3: become meek or lack confidence. And so I think, I think, 668 00:39:09,836 --> 00:39:11,396 Speaker 3: I guess what I want to do In a lot 669 00:39:11,396 --> 00:39:13,316 Speaker 3: of my work is try to use evidence to pick 670 00:39:13,396 --> 00:39:18,876 Speaker 3: up where where these these higher principles leave off and ask, okay, 671 00:39:19,036 --> 00:39:22,356 Speaker 3: what does it mean to do this without sacrificing you know, 672 00:39:22,396 --> 00:39:23,676 Speaker 3: our ambitions? 673 00:39:23,916 --> 00:39:29,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was struck by because I am, as 674 00:39:29,076 --> 00:39:33,756 Speaker 2: you know, a BlackBerry fanatic user. Not saying too strong 675 00:39:33,796 --> 00:39:36,836 Speaker 2: a word. It's from they make it in my hometown. 676 00:39:36,876 --> 00:39:39,076 Speaker 2: I have a you know, it came out of my 677 00:39:39,196 --> 00:39:42,516 Speaker 2: dad's university. And you have a little thing where you 678 00:39:42,556 --> 00:39:46,596 Speaker 2: talk about Mike Lazaridus who ran rim BlackBerry for many years, 679 00:39:46,796 --> 00:39:48,956 Speaker 2: and he made this error and they went from fifty 680 00:39:48,996 --> 00:39:52,436 Speaker 2: percent market share to whatever it was, five percent in 681 00:39:52,676 --> 00:39:56,636 Speaker 2: five years because they failed to understand the smartphone revolution, 682 00:39:56,836 --> 00:39:59,436 Speaker 2: the typing on a keyboard as supposed, typing on a 683 00:39:59,436 --> 00:40:01,876 Speaker 2: screen supposed, et cetera, et cetera. He was not willing 684 00:40:01,876 --> 00:40:05,956 Speaker 2: to revisit his assumptions about what a smartphone could be. 685 00:40:06,396 --> 00:40:07,836 Speaker 2: And I was thinking about that, and I was like, 686 00:40:08,116 --> 00:40:11,716 Speaker 2: but you know, when I go home sometimes to visit 687 00:40:11,756 --> 00:40:15,876 Speaker 2: my mom, I sometimes see Mike Lazaridis like buying books 688 00:40:15,916 --> 00:40:19,996 Speaker 2: at the bookstore. He doesn't live that far from my mother. 689 00:40:20,516 --> 00:40:23,436 Speaker 2: He's a very happy guy. He didn't have any regrets 690 00:40:24,116 --> 00:40:26,716 Speaker 2: I don't think he built this beautiful house, all these 691 00:40:26,756 --> 00:40:30,196 Speaker 2: trees outside. You know what, I think he's like doing 692 00:40:30,236 --> 00:40:34,196 Speaker 2: cool projects he made himself, I don't know, billion dollars. 693 00:40:34,236 --> 00:40:38,116 Speaker 2: Probably at the end of the day, you know, I 694 00:40:38,196 --> 00:40:42,676 Speaker 2: suppose he could have his shareholders might be upset that 695 00:40:42,756 --> 00:40:46,156 Speaker 2: he didn't rethink his assumptions. But it was very hard 696 00:40:46,156 --> 00:40:50,836 Speaker 2: for me to think of Mike Lazaridis as being a loser. 697 00:40:51,676 --> 00:40:55,356 Speaker 2: And also like, so what if he wrote it all 698 00:40:55,396 --> 00:40:59,356 Speaker 2: the way down like he believed in a certain kind 699 00:40:59,396 --> 00:41:04,356 Speaker 2: of ascetic functionality in a phone like I happened to 700 00:41:04,356 --> 00:41:08,396 Speaker 2: believe that too. Mike chose me over the many millions 701 00:41:08,436 --> 00:41:10,756 Speaker 2: who wanted to phone did everything like, I don't know, 702 00:41:11,716 --> 00:41:15,636 Speaker 2: isn't any different with this solid troupe. I was thinking 703 00:41:15,716 --> 00:41:20,556 Speaker 2: this into context of I'm also a fan of a 704 00:41:20,596 --> 00:41:24,596 Speaker 2: deeply committed, die hard fan of the Buffalo Bills. If 705 00:41:24,636 --> 00:41:27,236 Speaker 2: you know any well football, you know that that is 706 00:41:27,316 --> 00:41:32,156 Speaker 2: just an has been for thirty years in invitation to masochism. 707 00:41:32,156 --> 00:41:35,196 Speaker 3: Starting with Jim Kelly and Thurman Thomas four Super Bowl 708 00:41:35,356 --> 00:41:36,316 Speaker 3: zero wins. 709 00:41:36,156 --> 00:41:40,436 Speaker 2: Exactly do I re You know, if I read your 710 00:41:40,436 --> 00:41:41,876 Speaker 2: book one way, I would say, well, Malcolm, you should 711 00:41:41,916 --> 00:41:45,636 Speaker 2: just rethink you your football allegiances. They make no sense. 712 00:41:45,716 --> 00:41:47,796 Speaker 2: Like you got it? This is not working, this Buffalo 713 00:41:47,836 --> 00:41:51,636 Speaker 2: saying there's a certain pleasure in me sticking with them 714 00:41:51,676 --> 00:41:56,556 Speaker 2: through thin and thin, But so like, do you see 715 00:41:56,596 --> 00:41:57,316 Speaker 2: what I'm getting at? 716 00:41:57,396 --> 00:42:00,516 Speaker 1: Like I do. Oh, there's so much to work with here. Okay, 717 00:42:00,596 --> 00:42:02,316 Speaker 1: let me let me start by saying. 718 00:42:02,596 --> 00:42:05,676 Speaker 3: I love that you are rethinking your claim that you've 719 00:42:05,676 --> 00:42:08,636 Speaker 3: made to me several times in this friendship that you 720 00:42:08,716 --> 00:42:11,636 Speaker 3: always for the favorite, because the Buffalo Bills are definitely 721 00:42:11,636 --> 00:42:15,036 Speaker 3: not the favorite. Yes, that's true, So welcome to the underdogs. 722 00:42:15,036 --> 00:42:16,556 Speaker 3: It's about time you came around. 723 00:42:16,836 --> 00:42:17,156 Speaker 1: Thank you. 724 00:42:18,436 --> 00:42:21,636 Speaker 3: Secondly, on BlackBerry, I still want the keyboard back. 725 00:42:21,676 --> 00:42:24,116 Speaker 1: I hate typing on a screen. I will never be. 726 00:42:24,076 --> 00:42:27,196 Speaker 3: As fast as I was. I'm not worried about Mike 727 00:42:27,276 --> 00:42:30,596 Speaker 3: Lazarid's at all what I'm worried about. 728 00:42:30,676 --> 00:42:32,196 Speaker 1: And Malcolm, where is your empathy? 729 00:42:32,236 --> 00:42:34,796 Speaker 3: Where is your compassion for all the people who lost 730 00:42:34,876 --> 00:42:36,756 Speaker 3: jobs because RIM went under? 731 00:42:37,756 --> 00:42:40,436 Speaker 1: They didn't go under, I mean. 732 00:42:40,276 --> 00:42:42,836 Speaker 3: It basically did. How many people are working there now? 733 00:42:43,076 --> 00:42:43,276 Speaker 1: Well? 734 00:42:43,316 --> 00:42:47,836 Speaker 2: No, well, actually this is a sidetrack. But years ago 735 00:42:48,476 --> 00:42:52,356 Speaker 2: I wrote this piece about what happened. When I think 736 00:42:52,356 --> 00:42:55,116 Speaker 2: it was General Dynamics had a very large presence in 737 00:42:55,236 --> 00:42:59,196 Speaker 2: Rochester and they shut down their factory and left. This 738 00:42:59,236 --> 00:43:02,396 Speaker 2: is in the seventies, and everyone in Rochester said, oh 739 00:43:02,396 --> 00:43:04,476 Speaker 2: my god, this is the end of Rochester. And then 740 00:43:04,516 --> 00:43:08,556 Speaker 2: this researcher forgot who it was, went back ten years 741 00:43:08,596 --> 00:43:10,116 Speaker 2: later and said, what happened to all the people who 742 00:43:10,116 --> 00:43:13,436 Speaker 2: got laid off from General Dynamics? And he pointed out 743 00:43:13,436 --> 00:43:16,076 Speaker 2: that the resurgence in the tech industry in Rochester was 744 00:43:16,076 --> 00:43:19,436 Speaker 2: a direct result of all the people who were freed 745 00:43:19,476 --> 00:43:21,596 Speaker 2: from General Dynamics and went on to do cool things. 746 00:43:21,996 --> 00:43:24,956 Speaker 2: The exact same thing happened in Waterloo, my hometown. All 747 00:43:24,996 --> 00:43:27,716 Speaker 2: the people who left for Rim are the foundation of 748 00:43:27,756 --> 00:43:33,316 Speaker 2: this incredible tech resurgence in southern Ontario. So do you know, 749 00:43:34,156 --> 00:43:36,476 Speaker 2: Mike just educated a bunch of people about how to 750 00:43:36,476 --> 00:43:40,596 Speaker 2: be entrepreneurs and how to think about I think it's 751 00:43:40,716 --> 00:43:43,356 Speaker 2: it's win win for Waterloo anyway. It's a side point. No, 752 00:43:43,516 --> 00:43:44,436 Speaker 2: I think I think you're right. 753 00:43:44,476 --> 00:43:46,676 Speaker 3: I think that's a great point, and I'm feeling the 754 00:43:46,756 --> 00:43:49,916 Speaker 3: joy of being wrong right now because I think you 755 00:43:49,956 --> 00:43:52,556 Speaker 3: can see the impact on the ecosystem. If you know, 756 00:43:52,596 --> 00:43:56,196 Speaker 3: if you go to Canada, I think there's a part 757 00:43:56,276 --> 00:43:59,276 Speaker 3: of me though that I guess. I also I also 758 00:43:59,316 --> 00:44:02,716 Speaker 3: feel bad for you and me because we want that keyboard, right, 759 00:44:02,756 --> 00:44:05,156 Speaker 3: I would love it if there was an iPhone competitor 760 00:44:05,556 --> 00:44:07,476 Speaker 3: that you know, that worked a little bit more like 761 00:44:07,516 --> 00:44:09,556 Speaker 3: the BlackBerry did. And so I feel like a missing 762 00:44:09,556 --> 00:44:12,956 Speaker 3: out on frankly, some possible technological advances that didn't occur 763 00:44:13,436 --> 00:44:16,436 Speaker 3: because they know they stopped producing products. 764 00:44:17,116 --> 00:44:21,476 Speaker 2: What this book is is a kind of rebuttal to 765 00:44:21,556 --> 00:44:26,876 Speaker 2: don Quixote. Don Quixote is everything that he stands for 766 00:44:27,596 --> 00:44:31,876 Speaker 2: is something this book is refuting. Right that this book 767 00:44:31,916 --> 00:44:36,996 Speaker 2: is saying to persist in tilts and at windmills, to 768 00:44:37,116 --> 00:44:39,796 Speaker 2: persist in you know, the whole story of don Quixotes's 769 00:44:39,876 --> 00:44:43,396 Speaker 2: is don Quixote continues to wage these battles that cannot 770 00:44:43,396 --> 00:44:48,356 Speaker 2: be won. He will not rethink anything. And you know 771 00:44:48,556 --> 00:44:51,796 Speaker 2: that book suggests as a kind of nobility in that 772 00:44:51,996 --> 00:44:55,396 Speaker 2: romantic attachment to a cause, even in the face of 773 00:44:55,676 --> 00:44:58,916 Speaker 2: and you're saying, actually, no, don Quixote is going to 774 00:44:58,996 --> 00:45:02,996 Speaker 2: be much better off if he rethinks this position about 775 00:45:02,996 --> 00:45:08,196 Speaker 2: being this chivalrous knight and starts scientifically examining his options, right, 776 00:45:08,396 --> 00:45:10,956 Speaker 2: Like this is this book is anti It's the anti 777 00:45:11,036 --> 00:45:11,716 Speaker 2: don Quixote. 778 00:45:13,356 --> 00:45:16,036 Speaker 3: I never thought of it that way, but I like it. 779 00:45:16,636 --> 00:45:18,476 Speaker 3: I'm not saying you should always give up on your 780 00:45:18,476 --> 00:45:20,676 Speaker 3: passions or let go of the causes that are important 781 00:45:20,676 --> 00:45:23,036 Speaker 3: to you, right. I want people to stand by their principles, 782 00:45:23,036 --> 00:45:27,316 Speaker 3: their core values. But I would be thrilled if more 783 00:45:27,356 --> 00:45:30,196 Speaker 3: people were willing to say, look, I'm committed to a 784 00:45:30,196 --> 00:45:33,236 Speaker 3: set of principles, but I'm willing to be flexible about 785 00:45:33,276 --> 00:45:37,276 Speaker 3: the best plan to advance those principles. And I think 786 00:45:37,796 --> 00:45:40,356 Speaker 3: that really requires us to think a little bit more 787 00:45:40,436 --> 00:45:43,756 Speaker 3: like scientists and a little bit less like preachers or 788 00:45:43,836 --> 00:45:48,476 Speaker 3: prosecutors or politicians who are convinced I'm right, you're wrong, 789 00:45:48,916 --> 00:45:50,916 Speaker 3: and I'm only going to try to cater to my 790 00:45:50,956 --> 00:45:52,756 Speaker 3: own tribe. 791 00:45:53,876 --> 00:45:56,636 Speaker 2: That's all for now, dear listeners, Thanks for hearing us out. 792 00:45:56,956 --> 00:46:00,076 Speaker 2: Thanks to Adam Grant and his team at TED for 793 00:46:00,196 --> 00:46:03,476 Speaker 2: their help with this episode. My audiobook, The Bomber Mafia 794 00:46:03,556 --> 00:46:08,476 Speaker 2: is available at Bombermafia dot com and Adams Think Again, 795 00:46:09,236 --> 00:46:14,436 Speaker 2: available wherever books are sold. Till we Meet in the 796 00:46:14,476 --> 00:46:16,996 Speaker 2: Clubhouse again, I'm Malcolm Godwell,