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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing,

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Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policy makers, and performers

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Speaker 1: to hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions

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Speaker 1: change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. My guest

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Speaker 1: today is Antonio Uhas, a journalist and activist who wrote

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Speaker 1: an article in the June issue of Harper's Magazine about

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Speaker 1: the two thousand ten BP oil spill in the Gulf

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Speaker 1: of Mexico. The article is more than an investigation into

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Speaker 1: that monumental disaster, it's a highlight in a career dedicated

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Speaker 1: to investigating the oil industry. For the past fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: Uhas has been following oil, the companies that are entrusted

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Speaker 1: with it, the executives who make the decisions about it,

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Speaker 1: and the workers who get the oil out of the ground.

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Speaker 1: People who work within the oil industry are lifers. They

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Speaker 1: start out young, they work their way up through the company.

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Speaker 1: Most of the heads of these companies are people who

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Speaker 1: spent their entire lifetimes within the same companies, and they

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Speaker 1: believe that they are doing the dirty, hard work that

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Speaker 1: someone has to do. Someone has to go out there

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Speaker 1: and go through the muck and go through the mud

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Speaker 1: and do the harm and do all the things that

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Speaker 1: need to happen so that we can drive our lovely cars.

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Speaker 1: And they're the ones who are doing it. They also

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Speaker 1: make a lot of money, and from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: working their companies, they're doing a great job. X On

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Speaker 1: Mobile is the most profitable corporation the world has ever known,

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Speaker 1: over and over and over and over again. So if

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Speaker 1: you work in x on Mobile, you're saying, one, I'm

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Speaker 1: doing the hard, tough work that no one else wants

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Speaker 1: to do. And two, I'm making more money than any

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Speaker 1: company has ever made in the history of the world.

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Speaker 1: So how can you possibly tell me I'm doing a

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Speaker 1: bad job. So when you ask them, when you think

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Speaker 1: about the what about you know the fact that the

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Speaker 1: United Nations says that of fossil fuels have to stay

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Speaker 1: in the ground if we're going to avert the worst

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Speaker 1: of climate crisis, you know, what are you doing as

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Speaker 1: a company. What they say is, while we're dependent on

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Speaker 1: oil and fossil fuels, and we are, you need us

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Speaker 1: to do our job. And then sometimes they say I

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Speaker 1: don't want to get short, and sometimes they say, if

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Speaker 1: you watch their commercials and we are doing the right thing.

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Speaker 1: Look at all the money we're spending on solar and wind,

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Speaker 1: and look at all the money we spend on human rights.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Chevron has commercials all the time. So

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Speaker 1: I did an investigation of this because you know, this

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Speaker 1: is their clay and UM I did a piece for

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Speaker 1: this in Rolling Stone, and you know, the truth is

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Speaker 1: that the oil industry has been UM dramatically moving its

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Speaker 1: way out of alternative energy investments, if it ever really

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Speaker 1: was invested. The best company was at best, very generous

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Speaker 1: four percent of total UM their total expenditures, and that

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Speaker 1: was BP at its height, and I think that was

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, but they don't have the year memorized,

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Speaker 1: and that was the best. So the other companies were

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Speaker 1: point two percent, point one percent. XN basically never even

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Speaker 1: pretended to invest in alternative energy and really hasn't UM

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Speaker 1: And a lot of that money was actually in bio fuels,

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Speaker 1: not even in you know, wind or solar. But now

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Speaker 1: the companies have all like, yeah, they count that, they

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Speaker 1: count ethanol, so you know, and all the problems attendant

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Speaker 1: with that, but they've basically removed themselves from from those

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Speaker 1: sectors as well, so now it's almost nothing. And actually,

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Speaker 1: even speaking of ethanol, VP, which is now almost completely

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Speaker 1: divested from solar and wind, announced the closing of facilities

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Speaker 1: in Louisiana and in San Diego for making sell elastic biofuels,

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Speaker 1: So they're even now moving out of UM the biofuel sector,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, probably good and actually from my

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Speaker 1: perspective to be honest, you know, oil is a natural resource,

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Speaker 1: just like UM, the sun, and the wind. There are

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Speaker 1: places like the bottom of the ocean where naturally releasing

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Speaker 1: oil actually lives over thousands of years in harmony with

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Speaker 1: the environment. What this industry has done is taken a

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Speaker 1: natural resource and turned it into a weapon of mass destruction.

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Speaker 1: So I say, do we really want them to now

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Speaker 1: because they've done such a bang up job with oil?

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Speaker 1: Do we really want to give them the wind and

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Speaker 1: the sun? Do we really want them doing alternative energy?

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Speaker 1: So my answer is no, And what I would rather

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Speaker 1: say is they haven't done a bang up job with

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Speaker 1: the resource they've been given. So while we are dependent

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Speaker 1: on their resource, they could do a much much much

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Speaker 1: better job of providing it in ways that are much

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Speaker 1: more environmentally and socially and economically beneficial. The two thousand

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Speaker 1: ten explosion aboard the deep Water Horizon oil rig killed

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Speaker 1: eleven people and lead to a powerful seafloor oil gusher

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Speaker 1: that lasted eighty seven day is According to the ONSEEN

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Speaker 1: Coordinator report, over two hundred million gallons of oil leaked

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Speaker 1: into the Gulf of Mexico, and Tonio Uhas investigated the

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Speaker 1: multiple causes of the disaster later. But on that first

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Speaker 1: day April, she was far away a ten and I

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Speaker 1: was in San Francisco following oil in the same way

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Speaker 1: that I do, and I saw sort of a blip

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Speaker 1: come across the screen about an explosion in the Gulf

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Speaker 1: of Mexico. And honestly, at first it didn't bring a

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Speaker 1: lot of bells because, in fact, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: offshore oil spills, particularly in the Gulf of Mexico. They

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Speaker 1: happened fairly routinely. We don't necessarily pay a lot of

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Speaker 1: attention to them, and there weren't any pictures or anything.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is very far out when you say

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Speaker 1: offshore oil spills that are routine. Routine means they don't

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Speaker 1: blow up, and there's a lot of flames bellowing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but we didn't know that, so you know at first.

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Speaker 1: Um So, the more routine ones don't in of explosions

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Speaker 1: and flames, right, not not something erupts and whale goes

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Speaker 1: into the into the water. Oil spills happen often. Small

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Speaker 1: explosions happen often. Um So there are and there is,

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Speaker 1: um you know a lot of problems that happened with

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Speaker 1: Riggs out in the Gulf. As the days unfolded, though,

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Speaker 1: it became clearer and clearer that this was a significant incident,

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Speaker 1: much larger than I had originally thought. And what seemed

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Speaker 1: also clear as the days were moving on was that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't something that was going to be stopped anytime soon.

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Speaker 1: Um So. I was actually contacted by the Guardian to

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Speaker 1: do a piece looking mostly at because they still didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of information. It's still early on. You know.

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Speaker 1: Now I know why there was an information, but at

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Speaker 1: the time I just assumed, you know, we're just sort

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Speaker 1: of learning a little bit at a time because it's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily that big of a deal. I contact by

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Speaker 1: the Guardian to do a piece and the piece is

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Speaker 1: mostly focusing on is it a surprise that it's BP

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Speaker 1: so you know this happens to a company as a

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Speaker 1: surprised the VP as the company because BP had just

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Speaker 1: been through UM the Texas City refinery disaster, which is

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Speaker 1: was prior to this one of the worst workplace disasters

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Speaker 1: in US history and the oil sector fifteen refinery workers dead,

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Speaker 1: UM a hundred and fifty injured. UM the Alaska pipeline

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Speaker 1: spill had happened, which was a BP pipeline m not

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Speaker 1: a good time for BP, and Tony Hayward, who was

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Speaker 1: the CEO at the time, had also been and happened

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Speaker 1: for many years facing takeover rumors, and one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons for the takeover rumors which continue to this day,

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Speaker 1: was that BP it had a very low reserve replacement ratio,

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Speaker 1: which means that it wasn't replacing oil at the same

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Speaker 1: speed that it was producing it getting out of the ground,

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Speaker 1: and that makes it a weak company. So he was

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Speaker 1: being very adventurous in finding new fields, new finds and

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Speaker 1: being able to book them, which means that UM, you

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Speaker 1: can prove that you can actually produce the oil exactly

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Speaker 1: as you're taking oil or extracting oil out of the ground.

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Speaker 1: You want to know there's more out there. That you

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Speaker 1: that's yours exactly exactly, and investors want to know that

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Speaker 1: there's a half that you can replace UM. And so

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Speaker 1: he was extremely adventurous and also seemed to be more

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Speaker 1: willing than others to UM, you know, put time and

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Speaker 1: money and profit ahead of other concerns. So when I

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Speaker 1: was first looking at this incident, I said, you know, no,

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Speaker 1: it's not a surprise that it's BP. But then and

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Speaker 1: so that was the That was the first sort of

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Speaker 1: look that I The first look was just the company.

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Speaker 1: Then it kept unfolding, and so then by May I

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Speaker 1: was down went down to the Gulf coast and did

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Speaker 1: a tour of the Gulf coast and started interviewing people.

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Speaker 1: UM started interviewing UM fisherman's and fisher folks, started interviewing

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Speaker 1: elected officials, started to really try and us out what's

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Speaker 1: unfolding here. And then that made it increasingly clear because

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Speaker 1: at this point, you know, the spill is now UM

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Speaker 1: twenty days in, it's not ending any time soon, It

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Speaker 1: doesn't look like it's any ending any time soon. That

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Speaker 1: not only is this a serious disaster, but there is

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Speaker 1: a huge, untold story here of why it happened. UM,

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Speaker 1: what's what if anything is going to be able to

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Speaker 1: solve the problem, and what if anything is going to

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Speaker 1: be changed in the future. And at that point I

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Speaker 1: decided to write a book. And I'm like, this is

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Speaker 1: what I'm going to need to do. It's an article.

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Speaker 1: Isn't going to do it? This can't be a short

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Speaker 1: one off, and I Yeah, there's just way too much.

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Speaker 1: There's just way too much going on um way too

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Speaker 1: many unknowns. And so I begin the process of writing

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Speaker 1: a book and continue to write articles at the same time.

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Speaker 1: But the book is Black Tied the devastating impact of

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Speaker 1: the Golf oil spill, and that came out in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, and I continued while still covering other issues,

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Speaker 1: including traveling to Afghanistan to cover the role of oil

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Speaker 1: and gas in the war in Afghanistan and other things. Now,

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Speaker 1: when does when does Atlantis Alvin of the stuff that's

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Speaker 1: in the Harper's article, When does that enter your windshield?

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Speaker 1: So one of the first people I contact to find

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Speaker 1: out what is the significance of this oil spill, which

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Speaker 1: ultimately becomes the largest offshore oil spill in world history,

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Speaker 1: is Dr Samantha Joy, a bio geochemist at the University

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Speaker 1: of Georgia, who everyone tells me from the very beginning

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Speaker 1: is the person to talk to about oil and gas

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Speaker 1: in the Gulf of Mexico because she is the person

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Speaker 1: who has um done the most investigations in the field

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Speaker 1: trying to just understand honest investigations. Patsy for the oil

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Speaker 1: cups at all. You meet her, I meet her, I

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Speaker 1: start interviewing her right away. And she's been in the

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Speaker 1: Alvin before, so she's the only person to have led

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Speaker 1: a previous ALVIN mission to the site of the oil

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Speaker 1: spill after the oil spend, so she went in December

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Speaker 1: two thou and ten that year that year. So it's

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Speaker 1: just for people who were listening to the Atlantis is

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Speaker 1: the ship and the Alvin is And who owns the ship?

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Speaker 1: The U. S. Navy um the Yeah, the Navy owns

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Speaker 1: this fleet of scientific research vessels. It's a ship, and

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Speaker 1: the Alvin the submarine, and the Album which is the

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Speaker 1: submersible they own exactly. Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution manages all

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Speaker 1: of a subcontractor. And the Alvin Submarine is the only

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Speaker 1: human occupied research submarine that exists in the United States anymore.

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Speaker 1: It was the first and now it's the last it's

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Speaker 1: been around for fifty years. UM. It explored the Titanic.

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Speaker 1: It found a nuke that got lost in the Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you know the hydrogen bomb. I can't remember, um,

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Speaker 1: but it was lost and they she booked that trip

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Speaker 1: for you, and you went out when so um Alvin

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Speaker 1: goes under forty million dollars worth of refurbishing, it finally

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Speaker 1: gets to go out again. And when she finds out

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Speaker 1: that she's going to get to do the the first

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Speaker 1: mission back to the side of the BP oil spill,

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Speaker 1: she wants there to be a journalist with her, and

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Speaker 1: she lets me know that I get to be the

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Speaker 1: one to say the least thing blows a rth while

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Speaker 1: I'm down there. They just refurbished it. Well, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it turns out, let me see that bill for that

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Speaker 1: refurbishing of the Alvin exactly. Somehow, the refurbishing did not

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Speaker 1: include restroom facilities. Those in need were forced to use

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Speaker 1: a bottle. You can listen to earlier episodes of Here's

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Speaker 1: the Thing by visiting our archives, like my conversation with

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Speaker 1: Dr Robert Lustig, who talked to me about the growing

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Speaker 1: obesity pandemic and its link to a very different energy source.

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Speaker 1: And we've learned that the higher insulin goes, the hungry

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Speaker 1: you get. Hungry you are, So the sugar is an appetite,

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Speaker 1: stimulant in a sense, celerant, whatever you want to call

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Speaker 1: you can call it that right. Absolutely, take a listen

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Speaker 1: at Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing to better understand

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Speaker 1: the impact of the two thousand ten beep the oil

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Speaker 1: spill and tonio U has joined bio geochemist Samantha Joy

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Speaker 1: last year in a submersible that traveled over five thousand

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Speaker 1: feet down to reach the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico.

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Speaker 1: It took two hours to get down. The total trip

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Speaker 1: was the tool trip in the album was eight, so

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Speaker 1: five hours on the bottom. She were five hours down

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Speaker 1: there with her. We've been there before. Yes, what did

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Speaker 1: she say to you? She said, you know, Um, the

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Speaker 1: first time she went down, there was nothing. All the

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Speaker 1: sea life that could get away from the oil got

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Speaker 1: away from the oil, and everything that couldn't, in her words,

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Speaker 1: was nooked. It just got pummeled. We come back down.

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Speaker 1: Refugee sea life, refugee sea life, UM and basically what

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Speaker 1: I see is a moonscape. It's basically there's nothing. There's

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Speaker 1: basically nothing down there. No, I mean normally you would

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Speaker 1: see um, coral, sea fans, fish, even sharks and whales.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not like an underwater amazon. This is

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Speaker 1: the deep dark bottom exactly. But you know, there would

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Speaker 1: have been a lot more life. There should have been

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Speaker 1: a lot more like nothing. There was. What we saw

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Speaker 1: is a little bit of a change. So there's was

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Speaker 1: the occasional sea life that came through, and so that

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Speaker 1: was positive. There were giant isopods, which are basically foot

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Speaker 1: long cockroaches. That was exciting to see flow by. I

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Speaker 1: saw a couple of those. Um it's a fish that

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Speaker 1: resembles a cockroach. It is an underwater cockroache. It's it's

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Speaker 1: called an isopod. Yeah, who knew they existed? And I'm

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Speaker 1: not entirely sure that. I'm happy to know that exactly,

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Speaker 1: so that the giant cockroach has survived. We also saw,

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Speaker 1: which was amazing, um one vampire squid, which is this

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Speaker 1: um long squid that has a red head and it

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Speaker 1: went zooming by and um that thrilled doctor Joy because

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Speaker 1: those are incredibly rare to see. We saw the occasional

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Speaker 1: eel and occasional crab, little teeny um like blue and

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Speaker 1: pink fish, but mostly it was nothing. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: was the occasional occurrence and maybe something that had wandered

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Speaker 1: in their accident and they just have made their way,

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Speaker 1: you know, in what we should have seen, we should

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Speaker 1: have seen a lot more. But what is not good

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Speaker 1: is that what was also out there is um three

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Speaker 1: thousand miles worth of oil. I want to nail these

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Speaker 1: facts down for people. You said, did you say it

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Speaker 1: was an inch or too thick? The bed at most

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Speaker 1: it's greatest steps. It's two inches thick, so it's greatest steps.

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Speaker 1: This carpet, carpet of oil, of oil near the site

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Speaker 1: is three thousand square miles sixty miles by or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's shaped like an American flag or it's the

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Speaker 1: size of Delaware and Rhode Island combined. So this isn't

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Speaker 1: just around the site. This is a huge carpet of

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Speaker 1: oil that has been there for four years. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you a couple of questions based

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Speaker 1: on that. So there's a lot of myth making here

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Speaker 1: and an urban legend, if you will, The myth that

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Speaker 1: got circulated, was it all the oil was gone because

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Speaker 1: the bugs ate it, right, that's circulated, or we're going

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Speaker 1: to eat it? And that was well circulated. It was

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Speaker 1: circulated by a scientist who was funded by BP to

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Speaker 1: come up with that information. And scientist and I should

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Speaker 1: know his name, and I'm forgetting it right now. That's bad.

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Speaker 1: So a scientist funded by BP said, eventually the bugs

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Speaker 1: are going to eat the oil. I mean he said

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Speaker 1: initially that they've eaten most you know, most of it

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Speaker 1: and um, and they've they've eaten most of it. I'm

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Speaker 1: not positive that he said they're going to continue eating,

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Speaker 1: but he definitely said they've eaten most of it. Now,

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Speaker 1: what happens to oil that bonds, if it does bond.

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Speaker 1: What happens to oil that corregs it is applied to

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Speaker 1: because as most people know who were listening to this program,

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Speaker 1: they know that the gulf was sprayed uh in my uh,

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Speaker 1: my friend has a great phrase in my conspira noia

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Speaker 1: reality that I live in. Um. The my friends said

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Speaker 1: that they sprayed the corregit on there to get the

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Speaker 1: oil out of the way so that the media couldn't

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Speaker 1: see it. That was my probably my greatest disappointment in

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Speaker 1: Obama that he allowed them to not have the press

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Speaker 1: come and photograph and videotape and reports. Honestly, what happened

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Speaker 1: that though all the press had to stay away from this,

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Speaker 1: I thought that was the most disgraceful thing that Obama

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Speaker 1: ever did in his administration. I mean, we were I

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Speaker 1: was regularly threatened by police for trying to go to

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Speaker 1: beaches to cover spill sites. Um. People who wanted to

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Speaker 1: volunteer to take us out in boats were told that

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Speaker 1: they would be fine sixty tho dollars for doing so

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Speaker 1: and be sent to jail. Um. Fortunately, some people were

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Speaker 1: so concerned with getting the truth out that they still

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Speaker 1: brought myself another journalist out into the water. UM, I

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Speaker 1: don't I mean, I don't know, hopefully not not. The

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Speaker 1: ones that were kind enough to help me and people

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Speaker 1: you know were paid, So it was, you know, they

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Speaker 1: were desperate for for income and they were risking, you know,

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Speaker 1: a dollar in the hand for the threat of a

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Speaker 1: six fine because they were desperate and needed it. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, the the obstacles were great in trying to

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Speaker 1: cover this story. So what happens to the correct applied

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Speaker 1: to so two million gallons of corrects that are applied.

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Speaker 1: So part of the story here of dispersing it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a chemical disperse it. Part of the

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Speaker 1: story is that the only thing that BP had prepared for,

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Speaker 1: and that actually any oil company operating the Gulf prepared for,

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Speaker 1: was oil on the surface of the ocean. And it's

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Speaker 1: very common to apply a little bit of corrects it

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Speaker 1: to a little bit of oil on the surface. The

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Speaker 1: idea is to that you do want to break it

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Speaker 1: up because you don't want animals to get cotton it.

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Speaker 1: You also don't want it floating to shore. Oil is toxic,

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Speaker 1: you don't want humans coming into contact with it. And

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Speaker 1: the idea is that, you know, you apply a little

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Speaker 1: at the top and it's some harm to the water,

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Speaker 1: but it's worth it. But this was a totally impressed

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Speaker 1: hended oil spill in size and scope and depth, and

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Speaker 1: for the first time ever, the correct sit because they

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Speaker 1: only plan for something at the top, not expecting a

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Speaker 1: three month long oil spill, although they should have. They

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Speaker 1: applied at the bottom of the ocean, so they sprayed

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Speaker 1: it at the side of the spill. So you have

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Speaker 1: this huge cocktail toxic cocktail of the toxic correct sit

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Speaker 1: combined with the toxic oil, and what studies have found

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Speaker 1: is that in fact, the combination of the two is

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Speaker 1: at least more toxic than either alone. And the only

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Speaker 1: thing that the correct It is supposed to do is disperse.

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Speaker 1: That's all it's even meant to do. So what you're

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Speaker 1: choosing to do Nearrell Co manufacturers corrects It, Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: they for a very long time refused to release all

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Speaker 1: of the chemical components of correct It, and they also

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Speaker 1: refused to I think they have sense, And they also

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Speaker 1: refused to make it available to scientists to do their

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Speaker 1: own research on to be able to study the impacts.

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Speaker 1: And I believe that has also since ended. But what

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Speaker 1: they did was basically intentionally sacrifice the ocean in an

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Speaker 1: attempt to protect the shore. But of course they failed

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Speaker 1: it both because they also hadn't prepared to protect the shore.

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Speaker 1: So not only did they apply all of this chemical

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Speaker 1: to the ocean, but the oil also did of course

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Speaker 1: make its way to the shore, as did now the

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Speaker 1: chemical lye infused corrects It infused oil make it to shore.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about corexit, you said oil is leaking

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Speaker 1: into the Gulf as a matter of course, constantly, and

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Speaker 1: the system has survived and even at its most uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say pristine, but at it's most

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Speaker 1: natural and it's least impacted. There's still some oil coming

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Speaker 1: out of the bottom of the gulf, because there's oil

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Speaker 1: all over the gulf, and that just is how the

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Speaker 1: ecosystem operates and exists. But correct is it is not

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Speaker 1: something that comes out of the ground. Corrects It is

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Speaker 1: a toxic chemical that's applied. Two million gallons of this

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Speaker 1: substance poured into the Gulf of Mexico on top of

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Speaker 1: that site. Is I'm going to guess that's spit in

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Speaker 1: the ocean in terms of how it breaks down into

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Speaker 1: the into the body of water. But has there been

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Speaker 1: any research done to determine what corrects it itself has

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Speaker 1: done to wildlife into the So is that two inch

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Speaker 1: layer there because you said that they commingled the correctit

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Speaker 1: with it at the site they shot it into the

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Speaker 1: stream of oil at the site corrected at that's the

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Speaker 1: wellhead and when they did that, is that layer of

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Speaker 1: oil on the ground. Is that bonded with correct it?

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Speaker 1: Is anybody to any tests about that? Yeah? There is

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Speaker 1: um correct, sit correct. It and the oil have both

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Speaker 1: stayed and are likely to stay forever because the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the ocean is a dark, cold place. It's like

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Speaker 1: the best freezer in the world, and so it's not

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Speaker 1: going anywhere. But also um what's left of the oil essentially,

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Speaker 1: so there there are um microbes that have developed over

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Speaker 1: millennia that have feasted on this And just to make

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Speaker 1: this clear, very teeny teeny tiny amount of naturally releasing

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Speaker 1: oil that comes out of the Gulf of Mexico and

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Speaker 1: very very small amounts, and over millennia, communities have developed

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Speaker 1: around this oil and they have thrived because it's small

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Speaker 1: and it's a natural occurrence and there's time for the

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Speaker 1: species to commingle with the oil. So there are these

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Speaker 1: naturally occurring microbes that do eat the oil, but they

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Speaker 1: ate as much as they could, and it was only

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Speaker 1: a small amount. But also they only ate what they could,

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Speaker 1: so what they left behind is also the most toxic

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Speaker 1: parts of the oil. It's what they didn't want to eat.

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Speaker 1: And these are called polycyclic aero aeromaic hydrocarbons, which are

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Speaker 1: um the most toxic part of the oil. Carcinogens known

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Speaker 1: to be cancer causing human is at the bottom with

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Speaker 1: the correct Now, how would you characterize BPS response to

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Speaker 1: this what you've observed initially end down the road. We

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Speaker 1: know now through the court case that um BP, first

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Speaker 1: of all lied when it said that it was prepared

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Speaker 1: for a blowout, for a deep water blowout. It actually

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Speaker 1: had said in its exploration plan to drill that it

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Speaker 1: could handle a blowout almost three times as large as

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Speaker 1: the oil spill that actually ended up happening, and it

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Speaker 1: was in fact totally unprepared. It also then lied about

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Speaker 1: how much oil was being released every day from the

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Speaker 1: oil well. It also had said that it could handle

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Speaker 1: the oil spill, which to me, which also implies that

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Speaker 1: it could stop the oil spill. But it turns out

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Speaker 1: that the only method that it had available for stopping

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Speaker 1: the oil spill, it in every other oil company, by

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Speaker 1: the way, operating in the Gulf of Mexico, was the

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Speaker 1: only thing they already knew how to do, which is

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Speaker 1: also the most dangerous thing, which is drill another well.

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Speaker 1: It took a hundred and fifty two days to drill

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Speaker 1: another well. That's the only thing that permanently stopped the

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Speaker 1: well pour. The sand in the First, they did the

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Speaker 1: thing where they tried the um the top hat, which

431
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: was throwing When we saw this on jokes made about

432
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: it on TV because it was laughable. It's things that

433
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: work in shallow water four feet. This was five thousand feet,

434
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: so throwing golf balls and and tire and rubber rubber

435
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: from tires onto it. What should they have done? Where

436
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: have you seen examples of this going? Obviously not to

437
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: that level because the deep water horizon is an anomaly

438
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: I'm assuming correct in terms of scope. But where you've

439
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: seen these kinds of things? Where have you seen something

440
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: effective that's worked? It's not golf balls, but what do

441
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: they do? So what's come out since is that there

442
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: is another temporary method that they should have known about

443
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: and should have had ready. They and every other company. Again,

444
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: this isn't just BP. So I went into this story

445
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: thinkings of company that really they were the unlucky ones.

446
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: It could have happened to any of them. It could

447
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: and still could. Yeah, they were exactly exactly. But I

448
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: want to get back to this thing, which is where

449
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: have you seen this? Because it's one thing to say

450
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: there's something that they should have known after the fact,

451
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: but at the time that it happened, what information did

452
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: they have, because I want to be fair to them

453
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: as well, at the time that had happened, what information

454
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: did they have Where you've seen other people do this better,

455
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: that someone's done it better. There isn't an example what

456
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: they all did know. However, there are very clear examples.

457
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: So um, what they all knew. All the companies knew

458
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: was that the thing that they're depending on the most,

459
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: which is something called the blowout preventer, which is the

460
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: huge piece of equipment that sits on top of a

461
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 1: well that's supposed to when there is a blowout prevented

462
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: by shutting the well, and so it's called the blow preventer.

463
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: That these pieces of equipment only had about a fifty

464
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: success rate. This is the last line of defense they

465
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: also should have, and this is something that is just them.

466
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: They should have had it running as properly as it

467
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: could have. So one of the things we also know

468
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: is that they had allowed the batteries on the blowout

469
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: preventer to run out. Literally it had old batteries. Does

470
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: that affect them in court? Did they pay for them

471
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: in court? So then you get their hands chopped off

472
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: for that they were, so, so I guess there's there's

473
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: there's three pieces of the litigation. The first, BP was

474
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: found grossly negligent and definitely got in trouble by the

475
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: judge for, in the judge's words, putting profits above everything else,

476
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: and that was in what led to the blowout. So

477
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: BP made decision after decision after decision on the rig

478
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 1: and I guess in this circumstance, yes, there there are

479
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: things that other companies have done better, that they could

480
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: have done better, where they were trying to save time,

481
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: trying to save money and just making um, you know,

482
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: very very very poor decisions time and time again that

483
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: contributed that made the blow out happen. And so for

484
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: that the judge found them grossly negligent. But everything that

485
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: came after, meaning their inability to stop the blowout, their

486
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: inability to clean it up, their decision to apply two

487
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: million downs of Cruxit, their inability to keep it from

488
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: hitting the shore and killing a hundred thousand animals. For that,

489
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: the judge said, no other company knows how to do

490
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: it any better than you did, which means not at all.

491
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: And the government didn't require you to do it any better.

492
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: So you and everybody else gets a pass on everything

493
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: that came after the judge said that. So where we're

494
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: now coming to is the third phase of trial, where

495
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: the judge is now going to say how much b

496
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: p O s. And it could be as much as

497
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: almost fourteen billion dollars for all of the oil that

498
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: was released into the Gulf of Mexico, but it could

499
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: be as little as a hundred and forty thou dollars.

500
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: So that's why this low end is very important. And

501
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: that's why the fact that it's important that the judge

502
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: said that BP made very poor decisions, including allowing the

503
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: blot preventer to run out of batteries, um that it

504
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: was grossly negligent for doing that, and as well as

505
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: Haliburton and trans Ocean were also found um negligent for

506
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: their parts. You know, two of the largest companies in

507
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: the world, which Haliburton. I'm not positive they will find

508
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: something correct. I think they reached a settlement, but I'm

509
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: not positive. Yeah, I'm not positive where they're out with

510
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: their case. I'm pretty sure they settled. Now, you studied

511
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: these companies for quite a while. Now, you've covered this

512
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: industry for fifteen years or more. You're at the bottom

513
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: of the You're in this submersible, and all of the

514
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: fears of that aside everything, but with your knowledge of

515
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: what's going on and why and what isn't happening and why,

516
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: and you're with this woman who's this colleague of your

517
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: this revered colleague from the University of Georgia, Dr Joy.

518
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: Did you think when upset you? Oh? Yeah, I mean

519
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: I would say, certainly, are you completely uh cynical about

520
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: or does any of it really upset you? Oh? It

521
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: always upsets me. And I you know, I can't. I

522
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: can't tell you every day there's something new that I

523
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: learned about this disaster that still continues to depressed me

524
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: and shock me. And when I was down there, I

525
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: was unbelievably depressing. I looked out of the window. Is

526
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: at the bottom of the ocean. It was incredible, unthinkable opportunity.

527
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: And it's a you know, basically a virtual dead zone.

528
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: And not only are we down there and there's lots

529
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: of time to reflect, but suddenly we see tracks in

530
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: the ground which are parallel, which means that they're clearly

531
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: man made, and that signals that not only is there

532
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: this dead zone, but somebody's laying cable down there, which

533
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: means that I later come to learn they're getting ready

534
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: to drill again in the exact same area. So the

535
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: federal government has divided up this lease area sold it

536
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: to another company called L l o G. Without any

537
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: public awareness or you know, debate. Um L l o

538
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: G gets basically almost the entire lease and the rights

539
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: to produce oil off of it. And and they are

540
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: now and people aren't also paying attention because instead of

541
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: going in in the exact same spot so you could

542
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: see a rig, they're over an adjacent lease area, drilling

543
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: from the adjacent lease area and then cutting horizontally under

544
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: the ground into the original area. And this all they

545
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: wrote a plan. It took less than a month for

546
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: the Department of Interior to okay the plan. It looks

547
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: remarkably and depressingly similar to the same plan that VP

548
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: had drawn up originally. And everything is just um literally back,

549
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: you know, back to business as usual. What hope do

550
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: you think there is for accelerating renoble production in this country? Well,

551
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: and first of all, the US government subsidizes the oil

552
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: industry to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars

553
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: every year, So there's lots of money there. They don't

554
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: need it. They're the wealthiest industry the world has ever known.

555
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: We can take those subsidies, those can be applied to

556
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: alternative energy. UM. We can also you know, I think

557
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: it absolutely is something that can be done and should

558
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: be done at the local level. So if we look

559
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: at local consumption, reducing local consumption of energy and providing

560
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: energy at the local level, I think you'll also come

561
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: up with more UM potential resources made available and partnering

562
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: with government, with federal government resources. But there's a lot

563
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: of money out there that can be UM successfully cut

564
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: out of the budget that's being used to subsidize and

565
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: support the fossil fuel industry that I think almost everyone

566
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: would agree is unnecessary and that money at a minimum

567
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: can be directed to government. It has not the only player,

568
00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: but it has a role. It certainly has a role

569
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: to play. Antonia you Hass article on the repercussions of

570
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: BP's oil spill is in the June issue of Harper's magazine. Lately,

571
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: you has has been following the protests surrounding the Polar

572
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: Pioneer Shells Giant offshore oil rig for Rolling Stone. I

573
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: called Antonia up to learn the latest. Um we wanted

574
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: to um add a comment from you about two events

575
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: that I've been tracking recently, which obviously a plane to you,

576
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: And the first one is the Santa Barbara spill. When

577
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: I was reading that story and following that story, it

578
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: led us to corrosion in the infrastructure of those pipes,

579
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering, is that something that that's pretty common now?

580
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: Should we expect this to happen more often? Or is

581
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: there the possibility is Santa Barbara an isolated incident or no?

582
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: Um No, Santa Barbara isn't isolated for a number of reasons,

583
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: the first being that corrosive old pipes is actually a

584
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: huge problem throughout our oil and gas system. There are

585
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 1: stills related to problems with pipelines, pipeline ruptures, including corrosion,

586
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: that happened all over the United States all the time,

587
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: and in fact, in two dozen and fourteen there were

588
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: more of those bills than at any time and at

589
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: least the last twenty years. And that's partly because we're

590
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: moving more product through the pipes, but also because the

591
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: pipes are, you know, just get older every year, and

592
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: you know, disasters like what happened in Santa Barbara are

593
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: actually unfortunately quite common. I remember when I first went

594
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: to Santa Barbara to visit uh from l A. I

595
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: was living in l A many many years ago, and

596
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: I went up there to check it out. And when

597
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: I was staying at one specific hotel, they had cleaning

598
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: solvent and they had cloths that you used to take

599
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: the tar balls off your and the oil blobs off

600
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: your feet, because a lot of that stuff washed up

601
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: periodically on the beaches. It was a very common occurrence.

602
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: It was very regular. Now was that area still as

603
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: busy and as still as productive and oil field off

604
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: the coast of California? Is that still humming the way

605
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: it has been for many decades now? Yeah, there's you know,

606
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: a lot of oil and gas off the shores of

607
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: California in general, but Santa Barbara in particular. That area

608
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: is actually the birthplace of offshore oil drilling um in

609
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: the United States, going back to the late eighteen hundreds.

610
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: But oil spills are also unfortunately common and actually one

611
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: of the largest offshore oil disasters in the United States

612
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: before the deep Water Horizon happened in two thousand and ten.

613
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: Happened in nineteen sixty nine in Santa Barbara, and that

614
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: was a huge offshore blowout that led to three million

615
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: gallons of oil spills and led to a movement to

616
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: put in place moratoriums against offshore oil drilling, first in

617
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: the waters right off Santa Barbara. That then the moratorium

618
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 1: spread and they affected almost everywhere except for the US

619
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: Gulf of Mexico and parts of Alasko where drilling was

620
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: allowed to continue. But the existing offshore operations off California

621
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: were grandfathered in. So there's still are these platforms that

622
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: we see um when you're you know, in Santa Barbara,

623
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: and it's actually from one of those old grandfathered in platforms,

624
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: actually two of them, one from Exxonmobile and another operated

625
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: by a much smaller companies called Venico, that this oil

626
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: spill actually happened because the oil is typed into shore

627
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: through subsea pipelines. Then once it gets to short put

628
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: into a processing facility, then it travels along the onshore pipeline,

629
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: and it was along the onshore leg that the rubsture happened.

630
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: The oiled then spilled onto the beach and into the ocean.

631
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: Um when you mentioned Alaska. The next question becomes your

632
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: thoughts about Obama permitting drilling in and I want you

633
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: to name the region more specifically up in the Arctic

634
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: where what is the area described for us? What is

635
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: the area where in the sea where Obama has now

636
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: said they can have underwater drilling. Yeah? Well, now, um

637
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: in the chup Cheese Sea, which is um off of

638
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 1: Alaska in the Arctic, a part of Alaska that's heavily

639
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 1: inhabited by indigenous populations and a broad diversity of wildlife,

640
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: including polar bears and walruses and hundreds of different bird

641
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: and fish species um. And also in and also describe

642
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: if you would, the conditions of the water in the

643
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: dead of winter there. It's freezing water. Um. Huge blocks

644
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 1: of ice are primarily what you find here in the

645
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: in the winter. Not not really water per se, but

646
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: rather you know, ice sheet um. And they're supposed to

647
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: be solid. Of course, global warming is making that less common.

648
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: But that's why when Obama open to this area to

649
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: offshore drilling, what that meant to what's supposed to mean

650
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: is at the only time that the company's can drill

651
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: is a very small window when there's actually open water

652
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: there for them to drill in. So that's the summer

653
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: months and I'm going only as late as October is

654
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: their only opportunity um for when they are allowed to drill,

655
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: because it is such a cold, frozen, harsh, h really

656
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: precedented type of environment to try to engage an offshore

657
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: oil drilling in. But I also read somewhere with it's

658
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: very rough seas up there in the winter time. Correct,

659
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: That's right, very rough water, exactly rough water, very deep

660
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 1: distances between where you know, the coast Guard is stationed,

661
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: where their their pockets of you know, land, and places

662
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: where people are, where emergency services might come from, where

663
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: where help might come from. What do you think it

664
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: was if you can say that prompted Obama to make

665
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: that Rolling Shell is the largest oil company in the world.

666
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: That's the oil company that's had leases in this area

667
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: for a very long time, and it's been trying to

668
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: develop this area for a very long time. And the

669
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: reason why it hasn't is because its operations keep running

670
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: into problems. That keeps trying and failing, and you know,

671
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: the Obama administration is still engaged in it's incredibly dangerous

672
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 1: what it calls to all all of the above energy strategy,

673
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: which is a you know, I believe a really false

674
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: belief that you can simultaneously support alternatives and bio fuels

675
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: and you know, clean energy advancements and regulation at the

676
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: same time is allowing the industry to go anywhere and

677
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: everywhere it wants all of the time. And you know,

678
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: don't take my word for it now, it takes the

679
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 1: Pope's word for it. Um that you really can't follow

680
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: both of those, both of those tabs at the same

681
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: time and keep the planet inhabitable for our species. But

682
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of money in the oil industry,

683
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 1: and I you know, think that the political influence there

684
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: is ultimately what you know, wins out. And Tonia, thank

685
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: you so much for taking my phone call, and again,

686
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: thank you for being a part of our broadcast. Thank

687
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

688
00:39:52,200 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. Here's the thing, Fine,

689
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 1: don't make the time