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Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, to show about music deeps and

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Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, and we will be your bridge over the

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Speaker 1: troubled relationship between Paul Simon and Arc Garth, uncle to

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Speaker 1: my very favorite artist. This one is such a farmer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I thought we were going to be in

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Speaker 1: for just a nice, mellow, peaceful episode talking about these guys,

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Speaker 1: but we find once again that the rivalries that exist

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Speaker 1: within famous groups are often the bitterest, angriest rivalries that

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Speaker 1: there are. Oh yeah, I mean especially well, this one

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Speaker 1: just dates back so far. I mean when you knowing

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Speaker 1: each other as kids, that's when you really know. It's

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Speaker 1: like second only to family in terms of just like

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Speaker 1: fiercest band feuds. Yeah, you know, these two guys especially,

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Speaker 1: they signify so much. Obviously Seven and Garfuncle iconic pop

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Speaker 1: rock group, probably the most famous duo in rock history.

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Speaker 1: I can't think of another duo that would be bigger

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Speaker 1: than them. And they also represent something to me about

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Speaker 1: the sixties. Like you know, I was raised by boomer

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Speaker 1: parents and some of my earliest memories are looking at

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Speaker 1: the album cover of the Simon and Garfuncle Greatest Hits record,

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Speaker 1: which I think came out in the early seventies, and like,

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Speaker 1: Paul Simon and our Garfunical look like muppets on that cover,

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Speaker 1: Like they're very furry. Paul Simon has like a mustache,

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Speaker 1: his hair is long. You know, you've got Garfuncle in

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Speaker 1: the back. He's got his afro going on. So I

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Speaker 1: associate them with childhood and very peaceful feelings from that time.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it wasn't that peaceful behind the scenes with

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Speaker 1: these guys. I feel like their entire relationship has just

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Speaker 1: been a sixty year cycle of a bitter bitter fight

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Speaker 1: marked by a reunion, the really short lived reunion, and

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Speaker 1: then another bitter bitter fights that sends them off in

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Speaker 1: different directions for an into a decade. Now. I think

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Speaker 1: the marked the first time we didn't get our reunions.

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Speaker 1: So maybe in the twenties of you know of live

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Speaker 1: music is everything again, maybe they'll be a reunion zoom

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Speaker 1: concert or something, yeah, or you know, not to be morbid,

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Speaker 1: but it might be a reunion in the great hereafter.

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Speaker 1: At this like, I'm not sure how many tours these

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Speaker 1: guys have left. We'll see, though maybe that's too dark

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Speaker 1: of a note to begin this episode. Well, on that note,

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Speaker 1: let's dive into this mess, oh man. Like we were saying,

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Speaker 1: these guys were childhood friends, which is what makes this

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Speaker 1: so much more sad. They grew up together in Queens

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Speaker 1: and they they met on in fourth grade. Right They

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Speaker 1: were in the school auditorium waiting for the busses to

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Speaker 1: come and pick them up, which is such an adorable

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Speaker 1: image to think of, Like, you know, little Paul, a

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Speaker 1: little already who's still probably like seven inches taller than Paul,

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Speaker 1: And to kill time, they just sort of staged an

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Speaker 1: impromptu talent show and already stands up and starts singing

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Speaker 1: a song and just blows everyone away, including Simon. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Paul his his dad's musicians, so he knows

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Speaker 1: the thing or two about music, and he knows this

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Speaker 1: guy's good. Yeah. I read that Robert Hillburn biography of

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Speaker 1: Paul Simon. I don't know if you if you read that,

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Speaker 1: did you read that? And there's a quote in there

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Speaker 1: where Paul Simon's talking about this faithful meeting that they had,

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Speaker 1: and he said that he was impressed by Art Garfuncle's

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Speaker 1: voice and also his ability to attract girls. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of funny now to think about our gar

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Speaker 1: Funcle being this sex symbol, you know, because he's so

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Speaker 1: you know, he's this very thin, pale looking man with

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Speaker 1: the blonde afro. I guess he kind of has that

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Speaker 1: like angelic thing going. But yeah, but I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: like that seems to have been the dynamic with these

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Speaker 1: two guys really from the beginning. I mean that, like

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Speaker 1: Art Garfuncle was this good looking, confident guy and Simon was,

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Speaker 1: you know, much shorter, maybe not as confident, more reserved,

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Speaker 1: more reserved, but had a ton of talent. And it's

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Speaker 1: just fascinating that you could see that forming all ready

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Speaker 1: at that age. And of course that's gonna end up

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Speaker 1: causing a lot of tension once these guys get a

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Speaker 1: little more grown up. One of my favorite things about

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Speaker 1: their early days is that they really got close when

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Speaker 1: they were cast in the school play of Alice in Wonderland,

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Speaker 1: and I just think the casting is so great. Do

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Speaker 1: you know who played who? Simon was the white rabbit

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Speaker 1: and garf Uncle was the cheshire cat. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Like casting. You can't knock that casting at all. So

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Speaker 1: they were close as as teens, and they used to

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Speaker 1: sing each other with each other in their you know, bedrooms,

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Speaker 1: trying to work on getting that everly brothers vocal blend.

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Speaker 1: And they used to sing so close to each other

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Speaker 1: that they used to study the inside of each other's mouths,

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Speaker 1: like to watch how the tongue would hit the top

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Speaker 1: of their mouths, to try to like really mirror the

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Speaker 1: phrasing exactly, which is like, you know, incredible diligence. And

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Speaker 1: also if anyone used to write some Simon and Garf

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Speaker 1: uncle fan fiction, that's like a great place to start.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I'm a little disturbed by this,

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Speaker 1: but I guess that makes you a better singer if

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Speaker 1: you're looking at the other guy's tongue. I don't. I'm

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Speaker 1: not a singer, so I don't know. That seems strange

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Speaker 1: to me, But the proof is in the pudding. With

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Speaker 1: these guys, apparently that worked. It was a thing where

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Speaker 1: like family members like think of like bands like The

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Speaker 1: Beach Boys and Heart and things like that where they

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Speaker 1: can sit there. Blend is so much better than people

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Speaker 1: who aren't family members because of a little almost imperceptible

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Speaker 1: like dialect, things like just getting that just so spot

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Speaker 1: on really makes all the difference in harmony. So they

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Speaker 1: were right, yeah, like you said, definitely, the proof is

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Speaker 1: in the in the recording. So they were singing together

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Speaker 1: one day and they were trying to remember the lyrics

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Speaker 1: to Everly Brothers song called Hey Doll Baby, and they

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Speaker 1: couldn't get them right, and they ended up accidentally writing

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Speaker 1: their own song, first song called Hey Schoolgirl, and it

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Speaker 1: became kind of their party piece and they performed at it,

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Speaker 1: like you know, amateur talent shows and stuff across Queens

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Speaker 1: and um and Paul again he ambitious and his dad's musician.

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Speaker 1: They ended up bringing the song to a sort of

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Speaker 1: a tin pan alley brill Building music publisher in Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: and they made a record and it did very well.

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Speaker 1: They published it as Tom and Jerry and Hey Scrolgirl.

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Speaker 1: Got to got to forty line on Billboard, so I

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Speaker 1: mean it was a decent size hit. They went on

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Speaker 1: American Bandstand and performed alongside Jerry Lee Lewis, so they

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Speaker 1: were like, you know, decent sized teen stars for a

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Speaker 1: minute there, and you would think they'd be on top

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Speaker 1: of the world. I mean, it's pretty incredible to have

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Speaker 1: a hit right out of the out of the gate.

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Speaker 1: But there's this weird thing that happened that ends up

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Speaker 1: causing the first big ripped in their relationship, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like it lasts forever in their relationship, Like they

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Speaker 1: never really got over this. Like where Paul Simon, you know,

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Speaker 1: he makes some money from this song, he puts it

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Speaker 1: in the bank, and then he also signs a solo

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Speaker 1: deal to record under the name True Taylor, which is

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Speaker 1: an amazing uh stage name by the way, True Taylor. Um.

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Speaker 1: But he does this without consulting with gar Funcle first,

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Speaker 1: and when Garfuncle finds out about it, he hits the

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Speaker 1: roof like he feels like Simon is sneaking behind his

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Speaker 1: back and he stabbed him in the back, and it

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Speaker 1: ends up killing their friendship for several years. Right Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, well it's weird because already later would say,

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Speaker 1: you know, I I don't think I ever would have

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Speaker 1: gotten into recording it wasn't for Paul, Like that was

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Speaker 1: kind of his thing, and he kind of pulled me along.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't competitive. I he was a student, he was

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Speaker 1: an academic and he was planning on He took his

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Speaker 1: royalties from Hey school Girl and put it in the

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Speaker 1: bank and was going to go to Columbia to study.

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Speaker 1: So I think from Paul's perspective, he thought, Okay, this

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Speaker 1: isn't really my buddy Arts thing, like, but I really

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Speaker 1: want to commit to this. I'm gonna make sure I'm

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Speaker 1: protected and get my own deal. But Art, when he

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Speaker 1: found out about it a couple of months later, I

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Speaker 1: think I think he actually was fairly long in the

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Speaker 1: process of his own little solo career. He never he

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Speaker 1: just viewed such a betrayal, and um years later he

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Speaker 1: described that as the moment that their relationship shattered. And

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Speaker 1: this is ninety eight, you know, I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: like ten years before Mrs Robinson and everything. And it's

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Speaker 1: crazy to think that years before any Simon and Garf

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Speaker 1: Uncle stuff ever was recorded, their relationship is already categorized

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Speaker 1: as shattered. But I mean, you made a good point

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Speaker 1: about this before this. You that, like their their relationship

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Speaker 1: is essentially this series of reunions that they would go

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Speaker 1: through in every decade, like where there would be a

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Speaker 1: separation and then there would be a reunion. And it

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Speaker 1: does seem like with Simon, because you know, he does

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Speaker 1: have a reputation for being a bit of a prickly

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Speaker 1: person um, even sneaky or arrogant. You know, if you

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Speaker 1: want to go that far, and if you are inclined

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Speaker 1: to look at him uncharitably, you could say, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: as soon as he had a little success with his friend,

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Speaker 1: he was already conniving to have his own side thing

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Speaker 1: where he could be the star. Um. Which I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's that an entirely fair way to look at it,

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Speaker 1: but it's not entirely wrong either, if you want to

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Speaker 1: look at it that way. And this is funny how

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Speaker 1: that is going to end up repeating itself essentially once

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Speaker 1: these two guys get much more famous, absolutely, and they

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Speaker 1: spent years apart. They didn't have a meaningful conversation for years,

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Speaker 1: and then around three sort of at the height of

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Speaker 1: the Granite Village folk music room with Peter Palm, Mary

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Speaker 1: and Bob Dylan and everybody, Uh, they found themselves back

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Speaker 1: in Queens. I think they both graduated school and they

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Speaker 1: decided to to reunite and be a folk act, and

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Speaker 1: they recorded their first album, which not many people get

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Speaker 1: much love to, but I really enjoy Wednesday morning, three

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Speaker 1: five am with um Tom Wilson, Bob Dylan's producer. UM,

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Speaker 1: what do you think, aboum? I almost really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's solid. I mean, it's not as good

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Speaker 1: as their later records, and it certainly sold poorly. I

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Speaker 1: think it's sold like three thousand copies, which is like,

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Speaker 1: you know, oh tanged. It would be like if they

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Speaker 1: put their record out on band camp or something, you know,

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Speaker 1: back then, but this is like a major label. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: they it was not a promising start to their career commercially,

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Speaker 1: but so they split, Actually they split again. Paul goes

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Speaker 1: off to England to to sort of make his way

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Speaker 1: as a as a folky over there. I think Art

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Speaker 1: actually goes back to Columbia and keep studying. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think he was studying mathematics, and then completely unbeknownst to

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Speaker 1: either of them, Tom Wilson, about a year later, sort

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Speaker 1: of after the Birds are big, all the folk rock

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Speaker 1: thing is getting huge, the Birds and like a Rolling

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Speaker 1: Stone as a hit. He takes the sound of Silence

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Speaker 1: sort of the standout track from the album, and overdubs

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Speaker 1: electric guitar and bass and drums on it and re

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Speaker 1: releases it completely like Paul aren't have no idea, like

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Speaker 1: Paul's over in England, and then he was still kind

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Speaker 1: of keeping track on what was going on at home

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Speaker 1: by looking at billboard, and all of a sudden he

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Speaker 1: saw his name in there. I was just like, what,

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Speaker 1: what the hell is this? And the song became a hit,

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Speaker 1: and they kind of reunited just because it was a hit,

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Speaker 1: and you know, if you think about it years later,

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Speaker 1: it kind of interrupted what they were doing. Fame sort

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Speaker 1: of came as the surprise, and I don't even know

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Speaker 1: if it was like a welcome one. You know, Art

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Speaker 1: was in the middle of school and Paul had a

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Speaker 1: relationship in in the UK with this woman Cathy Chitty,

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Speaker 1: who's um immortalized in Kathy's song, and in America, the

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Speaker 1: Kathy he's singing to is this Kathy Um. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they've ever really said this, but I

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Speaker 1: always kind of wondered how they reacted to that, as like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess I gotta like ride this thing out now

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Speaker 1: while strike while the iron is hot. And then before

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Speaker 1: they knew that, they sort of were accidentally famous together

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Speaker 1: and yoked together to this thing that got way bigger

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Speaker 1: than they ever expected. I mean, I think it's hilarious

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Speaker 1: too that of course they inevitably have the argument over

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Speaker 1: how they're going to be built because they end up

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Speaker 1: being Simon and Garfunkele. But Garfuncle isn't happy about that.

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Speaker 1: He wants to be Garfuncle and Simon, which I mean

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Speaker 1: that sounds really weird to me because I'm used to

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Speaker 1: Simon and Garfunkele. But I mean I feel like, just

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Speaker 1: in terms of like how those names sound, it seems correct.

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Speaker 1: And then of course Simon's prominence in the group, it

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Speaker 1: seems proper to put him first. But that was a

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Speaker 1: fight too. Write Yeah, I think Already was like, come,

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Speaker 1: Simon and Garfunckle sounds like a law firm, right, But

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Speaker 1: he still has some ingar resentments about the side deal

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Speaker 1: the True Taylor controversy right at that at that time.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he later said, you know, I never forget

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Speaker 1: and I never forgive Already's quote. I mean it never

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Speaker 1: really their resentments they had, His kids were still present,

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Speaker 1: Art was still resentful of the true Tailor thing, and

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Speaker 1: then Paul was really jealous of Art, his height, the

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Speaker 1: way he looked, and his voice. I feel like we

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Speaker 1: even talked about his voice enough yet, I mean, he

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Speaker 1: just had that incredible angelic tenor, and Art sort of

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Speaker 1: was the frontman in a lot of ways. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he took all the lead vocal parts while Paul kind

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Speaker 1: of handle all the guitar work, and it made him

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Speaker 1: seem like the frontman, and a lot of times Paul

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Speaker 1: was worried that he wasn't getting enough to do as

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Speaker 1: the guy who actually, you know, wrote the songs. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny reading that Robert Hilburn book because

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Speaker 1: it feels like a memoir even though it's like ostensibly

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Speaker 1: a biography, but you feel like Paul Simon is using

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Speaker 1: this book as a vehicle to settle scores with people,

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Speaker 1: and Art Guard Funkel was like one of the big

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Speaker 1: people that he's trying to settle scores with. And like

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Speaker 1: one thing that like our girl Funcle said about Paul

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Speaker 1: Simon is that he had a Napoleon complex, Which it's

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Speaker 1: like hilarious thing to say because obviously with that means

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Speaker 1: is that someone is a control freak essentially, but also

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Speaker 1: it's taking a shot at his height, so it's like

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Speaker 1: a double shot at at Paul Simon. This idea that

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Speaker 1: I think Our Guard Funcle always felt that, you know,

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Speaker 1: he felt constrained and he felt overshadowed wrongly by by

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Speaker 1: Paul Simon, that they weren't proper partners and treated that way,

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Speaker 1: Whereas from Paul Simon's perspective, he I think rightly felt

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Speaker 1: that he was doing way more work because he had

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Speaker 1: to write all these songs, whereas Our Guard Funcle could

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Speaker 1: go off and smoke weed and you know, hit on

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Speaker 1: girls and do all the fun things that sixties rock

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Speaker 1: stars got to do. Paul Simon, especially at this time,

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Speaker 1: was an incredibly prolific writer. Right There was an interview

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Speaker 1: that he did once with Alec Baldwin his podcast Here's

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Speaker 1: the Thing, where he said, you know, within a five period,

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Speaker 1: five year period from nine to nineteen sixty nine, I

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Speaker 1: wrote most of my big hits. And really we're talking

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Speaker 1: about songs like Mrs Robinson and you know, Bridge over

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Speaker 1: Troubled Water and uh, you know, Homeward Bounds Boxer and

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Speaker 1: Sounds of Silence and all of these iconic songs that

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Speaker 1: even with Paul Simon's great solo career, I mean, those

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Speaker 1: songs are still the defining songs of of of Paul

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Speaker 1: Simon's life, and he wrote them all within a pretty

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Speaker 1: small period. So yeah, there was definitely uh, not a

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Speaker 1: lot of love in this group, even as they became

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Speaker 1: like one of the biggest American pop groups of their time.

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Speaker 1: And this all leads to the last album they made together,

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Speaker 1: Bridge Over Troubled Water. So they worked with Mike Nichols,

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Speaker 1: the director on the Graduate soundtrack, which was obviously a

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Speaker 1: huge boon tow to their uh, to their their influence

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Speaker 1: and their their record sales. UH. Mike Nichols decides he

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Speaker 1: wants to cast both of them in his next movie,

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Speaker 1: which is an adaptation of the book Catch twenty two,

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Speaker 1: and so a few weeks before shooting was due to start,

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Speaker 1: Mike calls up, Paul, it's as well, bad news. The

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Speaker 1: script's really really long. We have to cut your part um,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna keep Artie. Is that all right? Okay?

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Speaker 1: He kind of, you know, reluctantly accepts that, so already

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Speaker 1: goes to Mexico to film alone. And you know, for

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Speaker 1: for art this is great. It's like his chance to

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Speaker 1: really not just be the guy who sings Paul Simon songs.

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Speaker 1: It's his chance to do his own thing, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it works really well for him. For for Paul, it's

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Speaker 1: just another example of like, oh great, so now this

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Speaker 1: my good looking partner is gonna go be you know,

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Speaker 1: Matt and I idol and I'm back, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the studio alone, right and all the stuff that's that

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Speaker 1: he's gonna sing to make him sound great. It just

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Speaker 1: seemed like it's just one of the many injustices of

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Speaker 1: their relationship. Um. He tries to put a good face

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Speaker 1: on it, and he wrote the Only Rights the Only

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Speaker 1: Living Boy in New York is kind of like a

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Speaker 1: good luck message to him, which you know is a

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Speaker 1: sweet's a nice song. But it gets really bad when

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Speaker 1: the shooting schedule was supposed to be for only three

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Speaker 1: months stretches into nearly a year. And so Paul, by

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Speaker 1: this point it's just fuming. I mean, being cut from

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Speaker 1: the film is bad enough, being made the weight around,

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Speaker 1: while garf Uncles being a movie star is just you know,

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Speaker 1: an ego blow he couldn't deal with. Right, Yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: back in school again, where all the girls are gravitating

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Speaker 1: to art Garfuncle. It's like they're back in public school days.

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Speaker 1: So Paul writes another song and it's it's one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite songs that's actually called so Long Frank Lloyd, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of mostly addresses the sort of final

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like the final farewell to art and

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Speaker 1: Art was a a one time architecture student Colombia, and

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Speaker 1: it kind of masks the hurt of this like splintered friendship. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll remember all the nicely harmonized till dawn.

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Speaker 1: I've never laughed so long, So Long, So Long. It's like, really,

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Speaker 1: it's it's heartbreaking to read, and Garfuncle sort of accepted

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Speaker 1: it as such, even said years later, you know that

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Speaker 1: was a wink from Simon to Garfuncle. You know, so

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Speaker 1: Long already will be splitting up next year. You may

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Speaker 1: not know it yet, but that's the way it's gonna go.

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Speaker 1: Um beautiful song though, right, Oh yeah, that's that's that's great.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that whole record is amazing. I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: it was the biggest selling record of all time until

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Speaker 1: I think until Thriller, I think, at least through most

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Speaker 1: of the early seventies. Yeah, I mean, like I said,

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Speaker 1: the timing a Guardfunk with Greatest Hits album and like

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Speaker 1: Bridge over Troubled Water. If you were raised by boomers,

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Speaker 1: you had those records and planted into your brain at

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Speaker 1: a very early age. So Art comes back from filming

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Speaker 1: finally and the recording bridge over Troubled Water, and they

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Speaker 1: need a twelveth song for the album. I don't know why,

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Speaker 1: but they felt that twelve songs was the number of

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Speaker 1: tracks you needed for it. So Paul has a song

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Speaker 1: called Kuba Cee Nixon No, which is sort of a

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Speaker 1: pretty overtly political track, and Garfunk was not feeling it.

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Speaker 1: He just thinks this is like way too blatant, way

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Speaker 1: too obvious. He wants to uh have an old creole

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Speaker 1: corral in there, which is a very art thing they

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Speaker 1: want to do. Uh, And neither one with Budge that

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Speaker 1: Paul wouldn't wouldn't take a song off, and Art really

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Speaker 1: wanted this, this creole corral. So instead of compromise, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess this was a compromise and only came out

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Speaker 1: with eleven tracks, which I feel like they were both

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Speaker 1: wrong in that case. I feel like in a way,

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Speaker 1: they they're stealmate was the best thing that could have happened,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like I haven't heard Cubacy Nixon. No,

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Speaker 1: but just judging by that song title, it sounds awful.

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Speaker 1: But this is all leading up to I think one

365
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Speaker 1: of the most fascinating to me, like fissures in their

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Speaker 1: relationship as it manifested in their music, which was the

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Speaker 1: resentments that came out of the big song from that record,

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Speaker 1: which of course is Bridge Over Troubled Water, which is

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Speaker 1: a song that Paul Simon writes, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: instantly becomes a standard, Like it's a song that all

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Speaker 1: sorts of singers ended up covering within a year or

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Speaker 1: two of it coming up, the best version in my

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Speaker 1: view being the Aretha Franklin version, which is just beautiful

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Speaker 1: powerhouse uh rendition of that, And it's like one of

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Speaker 1: those songs. It's like this big, beautiful ballad that like

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Speaker 1: if you were to go into an algorithm and say,

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Speaker 1: give me the greatest song of all time, like I

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Speaker 1: feel like it would produce something like Bridge over Troubled Water,

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Speaker 1: Like it just has that kind of you know, really strong, beautiful,

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Speaker 1: like emotional impact type thing. It's like what you think

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Speaker 1: of when you think of a great song. I mean,

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Speaker 1: isn't that fair to say it's a Catharsis it just

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Speaker 1: it brings it gives you hope. You know, it's comforting,

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Speaker 1: it's a Catharsis it just it just feels like wrapping

385
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Speaker 1: a big, warm towel around you after getting out of

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Speaker 1: a shower or something. You know, it just it makes

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00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,240
Speaker 1: you feel loved, It makes you feel safe. I it's

388
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Speaker 1: really one of my all time favorite pieces of music. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it feels very familiar the first time you hear it,

390
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Speaker 1: and yet there's also a lot of very unique touches

391
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Speaker 1: that that Simon is able to bring into that song.

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Speaker 1: And the person who ends up singing it, of course

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Speaker 1: is our Garfuncle. Like I don't think Simon sings at

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Speaker 1: all on that song, even as a harmony singer. And

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Speaker 1: when they would perform it live, like said, Simon would

396
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Speaker 1: actually leave the stage and let garf Uncle sing it um.

397
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Speaker 1: But later on after Simon Funcle broke up, like Paul

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Speaker 1: Simon would, I feel really bitter about this. He actually

399
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,639
Speaker 1: didn't interview uh in nineteen seventy two with John Landau

400
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone, where he complained that like Our Garfuncle originally

401
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Speaker 1: didn't want to sing Bridge over Troubled Water, and that

402
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 1: Paul Simon had to convince him to sing it, and

403
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 1: then when that happened, the audience would always go nuts

404
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 1: for our Garfuncle and he would be the star while

405
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 1: Paul Simon was literally standing in the wings. And at

406
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Speaker 1: that point he started to feel like, what the hell

407
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Speaker 1: is this? Why am I being overshadowed, you know, for

408
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,920
Speaker 1: my own song? And it really seems like that song,

409
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 1: which again is this iconic track. It feels like, in

410
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Speaker 1: a way like a like a bow on the Sixties,

411
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Speaker 1: in the same way that like hey Jude does by

412
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Speaker 1: the Beatles. Yeah, let it be. I mean, this crowning achievement.

413
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Speaker 1: And in a way I feel like it was maybe

414
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Speaker 1: the final nail in the coffin, you know this, like,

415
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Speaker 1: at least for Simon, this idea that like I don't

416
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Speaker 1: want to be I don't need this guy, right, I

417
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Speaker 1: mean don't. Don't you think that's fair to say. I

418
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 1: think it definitely cemented that feeling. I think it got

419
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Speaker 1: even worse when Mike Nichols came back to Art and

420
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 1: was like, hey, yeah, I catch Way two. That was great.

421
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Speaker 1: I want to make another movie, And Paul just said,

422
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Speaker 1: you know what, alright, alright, you want to go to

423
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Speaker 1: a movie. Start fine, like I don't I clearly don't

424
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,160
Speaker 1: need you. I can write all this stuff and sing

425
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,879
Speaker 1: it myself. Go do your thing. And and that was

426
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Speaker 1: really I think the death now. And I don't actually

427
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 1: know if they really talked it out and formally split.

428
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 1: I think it was just kind of one of those

429
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 1: like we're not going to talk about We're just not

430
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,120
Speaker 1: going to work together anymore. Is that? Does that sound right? Yeah?

431
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: I think so. In that movie that Nichols wanted our

432
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 1: girl Funcle to be in after Catch twenty two is

433
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 1: Cardinal Knowledge, which is great film. It's a great movie.

434
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: And I gotta say, Art Garfuncle underrated actor. He's really

435
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 1: good in that movie. And there's another movie that I

436
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 1: love him in called Bad Timing Nicholas Rogue movie from eighty.

437
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 1: Both of those movies are like quite dark explorations of

438
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: like the male sexual psyche, like basically about like how

439
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 1: men are awful. And gar Funkele he's very unlikable people

440
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 1: in those movies, and uh, he's actually pretty fearless portraying that.

441
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: And again it kind of runs counter to his image,

442
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 1: which is of this you know, sort of soft angelic

443
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: milktoast type singer. He has a dark side. It's weird

444
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: to say Art Garth Funcle's dark side, but it's true.

445
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 1: He has a dark side that he really shows, I

446
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: think more as an actor than as a singer, which

447
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 1: is really fascinating. But yeah, you're right that Simon was

448
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: feeling stifled. He wanted to be the main guy. He

449
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 1: wanted to be True Taylor in the seventies, and garf

450
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: Uncle was probably feeling that, you know, Simon wasn't giving

451
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: him the respect that he needed in the group and

452
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: he was going to go off and be a movie star.

453
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: And I feel like, if you're gonna make a movie

454
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: about Simon and garf Uncle, one of the like crucial

455
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: dramatic scenes when you have the big orchestral crescendo, is

456
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: their last concert in July at a New York stadium

457
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: in front of like fourteen thousand people. They play the

458
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: last show, they go into the parking lot, they pause,

459
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: they shake hands, and they just go their separate ways.

460
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: You know, had the camera hold on that empty part

461
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: of the parking lot, like, oh devastating. That sounds like

462
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: a Paul Simon song. Simon should have written that as A,

463
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 1: but they weren't done for good and really, I mean

464
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: they were collaborating fairly soon after that, at least, like

465
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: I guess it was five years after that when they

466
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: got back together. Yeah, it's funny. I mean Paul felt

467
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: that art solo career was not taking off because he

468
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: was taking these really like kind of saccharin ballads and

469
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: and stuff like his. Have you heard uh Art's first

470
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: solo albums album called Angel Claire, which is it's got

471
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: some good stuff on and he's doing songs by great

472
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: songwriters like Van Morrison, Jimmy Webb, Randy Newman. I think

473
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 1: Paul actually helps him out and does uh does backing

474
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: vocals on the Charlie Monroe song What's It Called Down

475
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 1: in the Willow Garden with Jerry Garcia is on it too.

476
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: I think Jerry Garcia is on it. Jj A Kale

477
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: plays a guitar solo on it. I mean, there's like

478
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: some badass people that play on a very not badass record.

479
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: I mean, at least in terms of like being a

480
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: tough record that you would associate with those guys. I

481
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: actually like Angel Claire. I have to say, it's like

482
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: if you enjoy seventies yacht rock Angel Claire, I think

483
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,959
Speaker 1: is like a pretty good record, and uh it has

484
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 1: a lot of the hallmarks of like Soft Rocket of

485
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: that time. And you know, our garf uncle is a

486
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 1: really great singer. Even when the material on that record

487
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: is kind of weak, the sound of it and the musicianship,

488
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: I think, is um still enough for me to enjoy it.

489
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: I think the worst thing about Angel Claire, or the

490
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 1: way that it suffers, is when you compare it to

491
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: the Paul Simon records that we're coming out at that time,

492
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: like the self titled record that comes out in seventy

493
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: two that has Mother and Child Reunion and Me and

494
00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: Julio done by the Schoolyard and Duncan Duncan, Duncan Duncan

495
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 1: is an amazing song. And then you have There Goes

496
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: Raymond Simon, which has Code of Chrome and it has

497
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: American tune. I mean he really, you know, hit the

498
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: ground running, Paul Simon with his solo career. And I

499
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: had to laugh again when I read the Robert Hilburn book. Um,

500
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: there's a very caddy section in that book where they

501
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 1: can where Hilburn compares the critical reaction to Angel Claire

502
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: to like the reception that really Paul Simon records were getting,

503
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: and obviously our guard Funcle is not going to come

504
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: out looking very good in that kind of comparison. And

505
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: I just felt like, maybe I'm reading too much into it,

506
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: but I was. When I read that, I felt like, Oh,

507
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: this is Paul Simon pushing that button, like fifty years later,

508
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: like I'm still going to show this guy up, you know,

509
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna settle the scores against Art by you know,

510
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: showing them up in this way, you know. And in

511
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: Artie's defense, Andrew Claire, like you said, incredible positionship. And

512
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: I don't think Art gets enough credit up for sort

513
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: of the crafting the sonic elements a lot of the

514
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: Simon and Garfuncle albums, I mean, a lot of the

515
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: Frank Lloyd Wright nickname that that's Paul gave him was

516
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: partially because he was an architecture student, but also because

517
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: he credited him for sort of being able to be

518
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: the one to build the tracks and arrange them and

519
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: so a lot of that stuff that you know, I mean,

520
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: obviously Paul wrote the songs, but a lot of the

521
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: the arrangements and just even like the production work in

522
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 1: the mixing, Art had a huge say in and had

523
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: a lot of sway into so um and that really

524
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 1: comes across in his solo work, but it didn't take

525
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: off in the same way. I think I saw a

526
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: documentary where and I didn't know this, Like my favorite

527
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: Paul Simon song and Simon and Garfunckle song is the

528
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: Boxer and there's that little instrumental break in the middle

529
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: where I think it's a flute or I don't know

530
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: what instrument it is, but um our garlf uncle wrote

531
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: that solo, which is really beautiful. It's like one of

532
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: my favorite parts of the song. So yeah, you're right.

533
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: He did have a way of arranging songs that did

534
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: make an impact that you don't necessarily give him credit for.

535
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: When you think about Simon and Garfunckle, you just sort

536
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: of think that Paul Simon did it all. And it

537
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: does seem like on some level Simon recognized that because

538
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: you know in five they end up getting back together

539
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: and they did that song in My Little Town, which

540
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: I actually love it. Paul said he wrote it for

541
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: Art as like a favor because his image needed toughening up,

542
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: because all there's Angel Claire really wasn't cutting it. You know,

543
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: it was all saccharine, lightweight pop ballats. So he says,

544
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: you know what, here here's this like really unsentimental song

545
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: about you know, a guy who hates where he grew

546
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: up and this this will give you some some weight,

547
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: some have to really like help you. That was what

548
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: I brought to the partnership. And and you know, I've

549
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: never been able to work out if this was like

550
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: a genuine desire to be helpful or Paul's way of

551
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: saying to his old friend like, no, you dummy, here's

552
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: how you do it. You know, Like I can't figure out,

553
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: like what is intent was mind giving him that song?

554
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was a little bit of both. Probably,

555
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: I think, you know, like when it comes to Simon

556
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: and garfund Cale, my impression is that Paul Simon has

557
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: an attitude that you could describe as canny. Maybe a

558
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: less charitable person could describe his cynical where it's almost

559
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: like a bank that he can go back to and

560
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: get more capital from when he needs it. Because there's

561
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 1: definitely moments in his career where he was in lulls

562
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: where he ended up returning to that well to revive

563
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: his career. Now, I mean, this isn't really an instance

564
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: to that, because he was still um, I mean, he

565
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: was pretty successful at this time. And uh, in a way,

566
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: it kind of feels like maybe he was doing our

567
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: guard Funcle favor by doing this like this. This song

568
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: ended up being on both of their records. It's on

569
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: still Crazy after all these years for Simon, and I

570
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: think it's on Breakaway. I haven't dug that deep into

571
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: the Garfuncle discography, so I'll think a word for it

572
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: that break Aways good. But it was a top ten hit.

573
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: But and they ended up playing on SNL. But even that, like,

574
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: it's pretty awkward when you watch them, it's great. I

575
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: mean it's like they I mean it's it's kind of

576
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: a trend wreck in a way. I mean you cringe

577
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: because it's they're really playing up there like we hate

578
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: each other, but here we are thing. I mean, I

579
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: think Paul says something like, so you've come crawling back arts. Oh,

580
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: it's really nice for you to invite me on your show, Paul,

581
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: which is you know, I mean you can't tell how

582
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: much of that is just for laughs and how much

583
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: of it is just like you know a socially acceptable

584
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: way to vent their their resentment towards each other. And

585
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: my favorite appearance that they ever did, ever, bar none

586
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: is is the Grammys when Paul Simon and John Lennon

587
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: are presenting an award for I think his Record of

588
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: the Year or something, I forget what it is, and

589
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: they announced the winner and accepting the award on behalf

590
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: of whoever won is Art car uncle and Art walks

591
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: up there and he's wearing his his uh his tuxedo

592
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: T shirt and Paul just looks at him and goes,

593
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: I thought I told you to wait in the car,

594
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: which which is always cracks me up. It's a great line,

595
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's just like Jesus, it's brutal. But I

596
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: mean again, just the idea of you have learning the

597
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: McCartney giving them the awards, so you have their whole thing,

598
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: and then you have Simon and Garfuncle acting out their

599
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: whole thing. I mean, come on, you you can't beat that,

600
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: especially if you host a rivalries podcast. This is the

601
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: big bang of of seventies rock star rivalries. Oh it's

602
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: so good. We're gonna take a quick break and get

603
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor. Before we get to more rivals. Now,

604
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: when I think about Simon and Garfuncle reunions, like the

605
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: thing I always think of is the Central Part reunion

606
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: that occurred in the early eighties, And I guess I

607
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: would add this to the trilogy of like iconic Simon

608
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: and Garfunkel albums that I remember from when I was

609
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: a kid, the greatest hits album Bridge Over Troubled Water,

610
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: and then the live record from this show where they're

611
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: on the cover and it looks like they're both wearing

612
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: like foundation in Rouge. I don't know if you have

613
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: I don't if you've seen the video that it looks

614
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: like they're wearing makeup in the video. Oh yeah, it

615
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: was like a big Paul really wanted to wear a

616
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: hairpiece and was trying to get already to do one too,

617
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: because he just, you know, he wanted to look like

618
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: they're they're sixties selves and they're both starting on top.

619
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't doubt that they had some some

620
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: pancake makeup on there, because I think I mean, yeah,

621
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: they were around forty years old when that happened, so

622
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, especially at that time, that was pretty old

623
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: for a rock star and they're really leaning on the

624
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: nostalgia that people, you know, we're really starting to have

625
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: for the sixties at that point. And again, like with

626
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: as I was saying before, like this was a moment

627
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: in Paul Simon's career, like where he was probably at

628
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: his lowest. This was like the period before Graceland obviously

629
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: totally reinvents his career in six. But like you know,

630
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: after like One Trick Pony, which was a movie that

631
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: he started in actually a pretty good movie. I don't

632
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: know if you've seen that. I haven't seen it. It's

633
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: it's pretty good. Actually, Paul Simon as an actor is

634
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: also quite good, although not as good as our Garfuncle.

635
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: I'll give Garfuncle the edge in terms of acting in

636
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: the head to head matchup. But you know, One Trick

637
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: Pony wasn't a success, and then he ended up putting

638
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: out a record called Hearts and Bones. A little bit

639
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: after this, Simon at Garfuncle reunion and that was a

640
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: commercial flop. Although that is also like quite a good record. Um,

641
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: but I know, like with this reunion that they did

642
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: at the Central Park show, which was a humongous show.

643
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: It's like half a million people, it's bigger than Woodstock,

644
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: and I think the idea was that exciting. I mean

645
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: they ended up doing a like a tour after that,

646
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: and I think there was a thought that they were

647
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: going to actually make a record, but they were just

648
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: sniping at each other constantly behind the scenes. Oh yeah,

649
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: I mean on the so the concert so to Park

650
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: led to a world tour in eighty two, and before

651
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: long this they weren't speaking to each other. And finally

652
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: Paul was like, you know what, gives what's wrong? And

653
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: Art said, you know what, I'm still pissed about the

654
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: True Tailor thing. And I guess Paul was like, I

655
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: was fifteen years old. How can you carry that betrayal

656
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: for fifteen years? You know, you punished me for a

657
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: mistake I made when I was a teenager. And Art

658
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: looked at him and said, you know what, you're still

659
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: the same guy, which isn't It's like, I just love

660
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: the True Tailor. He could not get over it. I

661
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: couldn't get over it. I mean, am I wrong? I

662
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: think Hearts and Bones was the beginning. I think that

663
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: originated as as a Simon and Garfuncle record, and then

664
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: it became a Paul Simon record. Am I wrong on that? Yeah,

665
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: it was gonna be called think too much? And they

666
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: were recording together. I mean, this was like I think

667
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: at this point it was clear that, like, you know,

668
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: this really wasn't working. They were just trying to grin

669
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: and bear it and make the album because it would

670
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: have sold the Brazilian copies and they're working methods were

671
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: totally different. Like Art was always a little more like,

672
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, he'd like to go take walks and listen

673
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: to stuff on his walkman, and kind of like thinking.

674
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: Paul is a lot more methodical about it. And I

675
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: guess I guess Paul was mad at him for like

676
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: smoking a lot of weed at that point too, So

677
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: they were just always button heads about just how to

678
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: go about doing it. By the end, they ended up

679
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: I guess Art White or Paul wiped all of arts

680
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: vocals from it, just just just brutal and said, you

681
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: know what, these songs are too personal. This is I

682
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: think it was about the dissolution of his marriage. You

683
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: know what, this is mine. Sorry, Art, You're gone, which

684
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: I think makes sense actually weak when you hear Hearts

685
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: and Bones, it does make sense as a Paul Simon record.

686
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I mean the title track. I mean,

687
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: you take two bodies and you twirl them in the

688
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 1: one their hearts. Oh my god. Yeah, I mean it's

689
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: the lyrics and that you're You're absolutely right. I think

690
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: it makes more sense of something that's just so personal

691
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: from him. And I know, like I mean, Art Garfuncle

692
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: has been criticized for basically not interpreting words like his records,

693
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: like he's so much more of a melody guy. He

694
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: doesn't really dig into like the lyrical content necessarily. Like

695
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: there's a song on Angel Claire called old Man. It's

696
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: a Randy Newman song, and it's this song basically about

697
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: an elderly man dying alone. A lot of pathos in

698
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: that song, and then you listen to the Art Garfuncle

699
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: version and it's like this beautiful pop song, and it's

700
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: like he didn't really even look at that at the

701
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: content of the song, like when he did his arrangement

702
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: of it. So it would have been funny too if

703
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: he had done that to like a Simon and Garfuncle

704
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: version of Hearts and Bones. I think it's funny too that, uh,

705
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: when grace Land came out a few years after that, which,

706
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: of course again huge success ends up reinventing Paul Sammon's career.

707
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: That our garlf uncle slagged that off that he didn't

708
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: like like that record. He thought it was like a

709
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: novelty record essentially. Oh yeah, he said, like, okay, cool

710
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: like that. The South African sound is good for like

711
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: a track, but are always prided himself on like on

712
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: Bridge Over Troubled Water, every song sounds so different. I mean,

713
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: you've got like the Vegas horns of Keep that's customer satisfied.

714
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: You've got like Cecilia and the weird percussion, you've got

715
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 1: the gospel stuff, Bridge Over Trouble Waller. Every you look

716
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: at it, every track has a really distinct feel, and

717
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: Art credits himself with doing that. And so I think

718
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: with something like Grace Slam, which is, you know, obviously

719
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: a masterpiece and you know, one of my favorite albums,

720
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: he thought like, Okay, this is great. This is a

721
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: great spice. It's not a whole meal, like let's let's

722
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: let's even it up a bit or bury it up

723
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: a bit. So yeah, he kind of was pretty vocal

724
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: about not being all that into it. Yeah, which again,

725
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry, I just think it's hilarious that

726
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: Art Funcle slagged off Graceland. I think that just shows

727
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: the pettiness of these two guys. Yeah, it's pretty better.

728
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: It's it's Graceland Art Garfuncle, Like, what have you done

729
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: musically since Angel Claire? Not a whole lot my friends

730
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: from water Ship Down? Okay, you have that. That's about it.

731
00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: So these guys end up getting reunited again be when

732
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: they're inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,

733
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: and um, it's like all over again. Yeah. I mean

734
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 1: they were fairly cordial, but there's like definitely some sub

735
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: tweets dug into their interaction at that speech. Paul's up

736
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: there at the podium, is now we can join all

737
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: the other happy couples like I contain a Turner, the

738
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: Everly Brothers Mick and Keith, Paul and the other Beatles,

739
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,959
Speaker 1: which is, you know, pretty good. And then Art tries

740
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: to be sincerest. I want to thank most of all

741
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 1: the person who's the most enriched my life by putting

742
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: these great songs through me, my friend Paul here. And

743
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: you know it should have been this touching moment of reconciliation,

744
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,439
Speaker 1: but Paul can't resist just just that little dig, he says,

745
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: Arthur and I agree about almost nothing. But it's true.

746
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: I haven't riched his life quite a bit now that

747
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: I think about it. Uh. And then they performed and

748
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: then like they split and they didn't say anything to

749
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: each other. So I'm guessing that Art garf uncle did

750
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: not appreciate that little dig at the end. And it

751
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: seems like at this point, you know, the iconography with

752
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: these two guys is that they're old friends essentially, Like

753
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: there was a There's that song old Friends. There was

754
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: a tour that they did a decade after this called

755
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: old friends. But I mean, it seems like by now

756
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: that they are not friends, right, I mean, it seems

757
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: pretty clear that their friendship has ended a long time ago.

758
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: It just makes me, It just makes me think of

759
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: like the other speech that Paul Simon gave at the

760
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame when he was inducted

761
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: as a solo artist. And yet no Angel Claire Love

762
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for our Garfuncle,

763
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: by the way, he has not been inducted as a

764
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: solo artist. Just Paul uh he he says, you know,

765
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: I want to thank our guard Funcle and say that

766
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: I regret the ending of our friendship, and I hope

767
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 1: that some day before we die, we will make peace

768
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: with each other. And then he adds, because he's always

769
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: got he's always got to get that, Paul Simon digging.

770
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: He says, no rush, And there really wasn't a rush.

771
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: I mean, although again, you know, in the in the

772
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: odds they ended up reuniting, um and I mean, I mean,

773
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: do you feel like those reunions were at all fueled

774
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: by sentimentality or anything or was it just a money grab? Oh? Man,

775
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I read somewhere that for

776
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: the two thousand three Union they made like a million

777
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: dollars a night to play, which is the sane. Yeah,

778
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I just can't. But then I also read

779
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: that during one of the reunions, I don't think it

780
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: was the O three one. I think it was one

781
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: where they were like had to be pulled apart backstage,

782
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: like just so the answer your question, yes, I think

783
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: it was purely money. Although I have to say I

784
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: did see the two thousand three Union show. It was

785
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: actually one of my first concerts now I think about it, um,

786
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: and it was really incredible. I who was you know,

787
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: sort of dimly aware of their their their Tumultumus backstory.

788
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: Was kind of watching trying to see if there are

789
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: any signs of animosity, and I thought it was very

790
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: warm and sweet. And then they they brought they had

791
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: the Everly Brothers as their opening act, and they all

792
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 1: sang together and it was really great. So at least

793
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: from an audience perspective, it was awesome. But but yeah,

794
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: but then, but then they do another tour in two

795
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: tho ten or there was this idea that they were

796
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: going to do a tour and then they played jazz

797
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: Fest in New Orleans and they're playing the show and

798
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 1: it becomes clear that like our garth uncle can't sing

799
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: at all, that he has like an issue with his

800
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 1: vocal cords. I guess it was like a partial paralysis

801
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: of his vocal cords. And apparently this had been an issue,

802
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: and like he had told Simon that it was going

803
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 1: to be fine, that he's gonna, you know, be able

804
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 1: to do the tour, but it becomes clear that that's

805
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: not going to happen, and they have to cancel all

806
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: these dates and I think it cost them like a

807
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: million dollars each to cancel thes like a huge loss

808
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: that they had to take, and it seems like that

809
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: is the final of final straws with these guys, like

810
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: because I Paul Simmon's attitude was like he let us

811
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: down like this this this screw up who doesn't want

812
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: to work hard. I work way harder than him, and

813
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 1: he's finally screwed me again, and I'm not gonna let

814
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 1: it happen. I mean, is that a fair assessment? Yeah,

815
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: there was a case of like, you know what, if

816
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: you just told me, you know what, my voice is

817
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: in trouble, I need some time you recuperate, it would

818
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: have been fine. But the fact that you claim you

819
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: were fine and then we get up there at the

820
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: at the jazz festival and sort of embarrass ourselves and

821
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: just have to sort of coast on the audience is like,

822
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,479
Speaker 1: you know, just feelings of sentimentality towards us, that's something

823
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: totally different. So really was that he just felt he

824
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: couldn't trust them anymore, like I don't trust you when

825
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: you say you're fine. I don't trust you about anything,

826
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 1: which kind of now is almost like the true tailor

827
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: thing all like they both have this thing that they

828
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: blob Onto is the reason we don't trust one another. Uh.

829
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: Really heartbreaking for these two old friends. Yeah. I think

830
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: he said, I'm tired of all the drama. Is like

831
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: I just he just felt like our gar funcle was

832
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: a fountain of drama in his life. He didn't want

833
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: to deal with anymore. And so they have this parting

834
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,439
Speaker 1: of ways, and there's radio silence for a little while

835
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: with these guys. But then our garf uncle takes a

836
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: shot at him in twenty can you because have you

837
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: read that interview? Like he did an interview with the Telegraph,

838
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: It's like amazing story to read. Oh, it's brutal. I

839
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: mean he takes it back and said, you know what,

840
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: I was friends with him. I felt bad for him.

841
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: He was a short, little nerdy kid, and by showing

842
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: him kindness I and this is a quote, created a

843
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: monster and and also accused him of one of many

844
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: times of suffering from a Napoleon complex that we talked

845
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,439
Speaker 1: about earlier. But he also, you know, in his own way,

846
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: sort of laments the loss of their partnership, saying, like,

847
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, the whole split is really strange. It's not

848
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: my choice. It's nothing that I would have done. I

849
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: want to open up about this. I don't want to

850
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: say I'm anti Paul Simon, and I love that the

851
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: world still loves Simon and garf uncle, but it's perverse

852
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: not to enjoy the glory and walk away from it.

853
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: It's crazy. He said he would have taken arrest from Paul,

854
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: but he would love to have gotten back together, but

855
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: that just wasn't going to happen. Yeah, and and and

856
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 1: Simon did his own interview with NPR where he made

857
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: it clear that he wanted nothing more to do with

858
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: our car funcle. Like there's a and you know, reading

859
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: his quote, I mean, it makes sense to me. Like

860
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: what he basically said was, you know, if I could

861
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: get together with him and it was fun, you know,

862
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: I would do it, you know, but there's really nothing

863
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: musically there to be left, you know, to explore, and

864
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: and it just seems like a drag, you know, like

865
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 1: when we get back together. And he said, you know,

866
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: I have a lot of musical areas that I like

867
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: to play in, so that will never happen again. That's

868
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: that I mean. I feel like this is also informed

869
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: by well by a couple of things one Simon had,

870
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: like a great creative renaissance. I feel like in the

871
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 1: last decade of his career, like in in the two

872
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: thousand tens, like he put out some really great records

873
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: I think, so beautiful. So what is actually like one

874
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: of my favorite Paul Simon solo records? I even like

875
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: Surprise and I was six, Yeah, surprised. I mean, You're

876
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: the One is a really great record that was nominated,

877
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: I think for the Album of the Year at the Grammys.

878
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: So and he also attained like a certain level of

879
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: hipness too, which was a little bit of a surprise.

880
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: But everyone from like Conor Oberst the Bright Eyes too,

881
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, as a Canega Vampire Weekend. Uh. You know,

882
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: all these young indie musicians started talking about Paul Simon

883
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: and and really talking about Grace Land more than like

884
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: Simon and Garfuncle stuff. Um where he didn't really need

885
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: to go back to that bank anymore, you know, he

886
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: didn't need the capital that he would sometimes get from

887
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: that Simon and Garfuncle, well, like when his career was

888
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: at a down swing. And of course now you know,

889
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: Paul Simon retired supposedly, although we'll see what happens with that,

890
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: but he did his final performances in I heard him

891
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: qualify that by saying that he wasn't going to do

892
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 1: a tour again, but he may do like a one

893
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: off show in New York or something if the if

894
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: the moment strikes him. Uh so maybe there. I mean,

895
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: I don't do you think like he would ever call

896
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,439
Speaker 1: up Artie and say, hey, let's sing one more time.

897
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems inconceivable to me. I mean,

898
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: that seemed like it would have been the moment because

899
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: his final show in Team was at Corona Park, which was, like,

900
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: you know, a bike ride away from where they grew up.

901
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: It would have been just the most perfect way to

902
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: put a cherry on on his his live career. But

903
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: he didn't. And I think around the same time, Aren't

904
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 1: called this the coldest period in their long friendship, and

905
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: he said there's a real sense that he might not

906
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: hear from him again. And he also said, you know what,

907
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if I care, Oh, because of because

908
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: of True Taylor, the True Taylor thing. You know, I guess.

909
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: But now what's sixty years later, I mean he's probably

910
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,439
Speaker 1: still piste off about True Taylor. Um, well, let's make

911
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: the pro case for each side. I think with Paul Simon,

912
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: it's a pretty obvious case. I like I said before, uh,

913
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: you know, in like the final decade or so of

914
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: his career, assuming that his career has ended, Paul Simon

915
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: really had a renaissance where a new generation of people

916
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: were embracing his music, and it seemed like his records,

917
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: especially Graceland, was it seemed like it was more influential

918
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: than ever. And I think it really speaks to how

919
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: Paul Simon. To me, it's like really rare artist who

920
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: was able to continually reinvent himself through every decade um

921
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: and and really like in the two thousand tents, like

922
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: I would take his records over anyone else from the

923
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: sixties generation, even like Bob Dylan, who I love. I

924
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: think the Paul Simon records from the two thousand tens

925
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: are better than Paul Simon's records from that time, or

926
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: Neil Young or I mean, Leonard Cohen put out some

927
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: great records, but I still like the Paul Simon records

928
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: a lot. And in the case of Simon and Garfuncle,

929
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no question that he brought more to

930
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 1: the table musically, and you know, like I said earlier

931
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 1: that five years span in the late sixties where Simon

932
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: was just cranking out hits when he was inside in

933
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: the garf Uncle. I mean, those songs are still iconic

934
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: and as big as Graceland is and some of the

935
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: other Paul Simon solo records. I don't think that he

936
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: has a single song from his solo career that's as

937
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: big as Mrs Robinson or Bridge over Troubled Water or

938
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: the Sounds of Silence. Um. So yeah, I mean to me,

939
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: he's on the upper tier, the top tier of of

940
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: rock singer songwriters. Uh. And I don't think there's any

941
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: question about that. The thing that always blows my mind

942
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: too is thinking about, you know, his lyrically. I think

943
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: he's on par with Dylan. He's incredible, but he also

944
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 1: is such an innovator just the musical side of things too,

945
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: at the instrumental side, just toying with just being such

946
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: an influence in world music. From the Jamaican Sounds of

947
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: Mother and Childhood Union, that New Orleans stuff on Rheman

948
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: Simon Puerto Rican sounds, that freaking sounds. Uh. The Cape

949
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: Man soundtrack was incredible. I thought, like it really it's

950
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: it's rare to have somebody who excels at at the

951
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 1: words and the music. I think in the way that

952
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: Paul Simon does. Yeah, and he's he's a really good

953
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: singer too, which is funny because he wasn't the lead

954
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 1: singer really of Simon and Garfunkel, but like he could

955
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: have been. You feel like, I mean, don't you think,

956
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I mean you listen to like one of

957
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: my favorite songs is uh, I know what I know?

958
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: And because he sounds like an actor on it, you know,

959
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: like he's really like giving a performance and putting so

960
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: much like personality in this delivery. I think Art you know,

961
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: I mean, kid say anything disparaging about his his instrument

962
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: it's it's amazing. But I think he's more self consciously

963
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 1: a singer, you know in quotes. But Paul is this

964
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 1: classic singer songwriter where he's sort of more he's better

965
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: at communicating the song's meaning, which, like you touched on earlier,

966
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: wasn't art strong suit at all, like it kind of

967
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: he was more more preoccupied with the melodies. Oh, I

968
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,399
Speaker 1: love his vocals. I actually think I heard a great

969
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: analogy where where arts vocals in the Simon and Garf

970
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,479
Speaker 1: Uncle songs where the frosting, but Simon's is the cake.

971
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: You know, if you have too much frosting, you get sick.

972
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: You can't you can't handle. You gotta have like the

973
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: cake there to to sort of balance it out. Which

974
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: that's kind of how I feel like. So I actually

975
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: the songs where Art takes the lead on Samocgarf Uncle tracks,

976
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: like for Emily, whoever I may find her. I they

977
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: aren't my favorite songs. I feel like I really need

978
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: them both, either be singing together or alternating verses. Right, Yeah,

979
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: I mean I think Bridge over Troubled Water is like

980
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: the exception to that. I think his vocal is, uh,

981
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: you can't knock his vocal on that song. It's a

982
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 1: beautiful vocal and he really kills it. But yeah, I

983
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: I tend to agree with that. That everything you said. However,

984
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: transitioning to the Art garf Uncle side, the pro art

985
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: the pro garf Uncle, um, it makes me think in

986
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: a way of our Mike Love and Brian Wilson episode,

987
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: because I think there's kind of a similar dynamic here,

988
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: just in terms of you know, Michael Love. I think

989
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: it's easy to disparage him and he does get diminished

990
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 1: a lot, you know, in comparison to Brian Wilson, who's

991
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,280
Speaker 1: this great songwriter that was the creative mention of that band.

992
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: I think with Art Garfuncle, you know, he was the

993
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: front person of Simon and Garfuncle, and he was the

994
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: person who I think helped get those songs on the

995
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: radio because his voice was so beautiful and he gave

996
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: those songs a pop edge that they might not have

997
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: otherwise had. You know, like if you listen to some

998
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: of those early Simon and Garfuncle songs from that Wednesday

999
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: three Am record, or there's a record called the Paul

1000
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: Simon Songbook that came out in sixty five when he

1001
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: was in England and essentially kind of flirting with the

1002
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: idea of being a solo artist. You know, he is

1003
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: in the mold of like the singer songwriters of that time,

1004
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: and he's writing great songs. But I don't know if

1005
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: he was writing hits necessarily. And it seems Garfuncle was

1006
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 1: a pivotal part of them being a big pop group,

1007
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 1: don't you think. Oh yeah, I mean not only just

1008
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: the vocals, but also when we were saying earlier, it's

1009
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: arrangements too. I mean, because most of the songs in

1010
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 1: the Paul Simon song Book, maybe like two thirds of

1011
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: them end up surface. It probably even more end up

1012
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 1: surfacing and Simon and Garfuncle songs, And I mean, it's

1013
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,240
Speaker 1: it's night and Day, it's still it's they the songs

1014
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: as Paul does them on the Paul Simon song BUTOK,

1015
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: almost sounds like demos to me. But there's so much

1016
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: more enriched by that that that vocal harmony, you know.

1017
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just really I think that a lot

1018
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: of if it was just Paul being a folk rock

1019
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: artist alone, without Garfunkele in the mid sixties, you would

1020
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: have had more songs like the Bright Green Pleasure Machine

1021
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: and uh whatever, the one where he's talking about then

1022
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: mcnamarat and John O'Hara and whatever, the one that's like

1023
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: basically he's like pre rapping about all these like political

1024
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: figures at the time. Not my favorite sabern orgar Funcle songs.

1025
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: There's something like there's this kind of like wise guy

1026
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: city kid vibe to them, which is cool, but it

1027
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: never really worked for me, and so I it was

1028
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: that that balance that made it work. All right, man,

1029
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more rivals. It brings us

1030
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: to the conclusion here when we talk about like why

1031
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: these guys should be together, why they should be reconciled,

1032
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: And I mean I was thinking about this. I feel like,

1033
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: for a really long time, Simon and garfunk Call as

1034
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: a group was bigger than Paul Simon in his solo career,

1035
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: and maybe that's changed in recent years, just because it

1036
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: does seem like Graceland is one of those albums that

1037
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 1: younger generations rediscover and get into in a way that

1038
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily do with a lot of other, you know,

1039
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: boomer era classics. Like it seems like now maybe for

1040
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: a person who's under the age of thirty, that they

1041
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: think of Graceland first when they think about Paul Simon.

1042
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: But I feel like, for like most of his career

1043
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: he was still in the shadow like of like a

1044
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: lot of those big Simon and Garfunkel songs um Bridge

1045
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: over Troubled Water and Sounds of Silence Again, I don't

1046
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: I feel like when he plays live like those are

1047
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: probably still the songs he plays last, because they're so

1048
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: iconic and they were such big hits and they're still

1049
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, like on oldies radio all the time. And

1050
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 1: again that speaks to the power that those two had

1051
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: as a partnership. You know, we talked about Lennon and

1052
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: McCartney being a great partnership within the Beatles, but in

1053
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 1: terms of like just the performance duo, I mean, Simon

1054
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 1: and Garfuncle, I feel like created a mold that other

1055
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 1: people have tried to replicate but have never quite topped.

1056
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: Like that still seems like the archetypical two person group.

1057
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: You know, they were taking it from the Everly Brothers obviously,

1058
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: but they took it to another place and made it

1059
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: even bigger. Yeah, And you know it's sad how they

1060
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: just they resented each other's gifts, you know. I mean,

1061
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: even at the height of the sixties, Paul was seeing

1062
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: a therapist something like four times a week because he

1063
00:53:58,239 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: wasn't happy. You know. Paul wished he could be as

1064
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: tall and handsome and as intelligent as Art and sing

1065
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 1: as well as m and Art was threatened by the

1066
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: fact that Paul was this genius songwriter who sort of

1067
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 1: controlled the direction of the partnership. And I think Art

1068
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: had a quote in the eighties were described it really

1069
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: perfectly said, we were trying to make one perfect person together.

1070
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 1: And I you know, I mean that's such a great

1071
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 1: definition of a working partnership. Um, and yeah, it's just sad,

1072
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: and I think and the two of them together to

1073
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: I mean, not to sound like, you know, a total

1074
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,359
Speaker 1: boomer sympathizer, which I absolutely am, but I mean they're

1075
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: split coincided, kind of like the Beatles, with the end

1076
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: of the sixties and the death of a certain kind

1077
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 1: of optimism. So I think that the pair of them

1078
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 1: together have a kind of cultural power that just transcend

1079
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: an ordinary band reunion. You know. It's like seeing them

1080
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: together is like a happy ending. It's them kind of

1081
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: making good on the promise of of old friends, you know,

1082
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: sitting together like like bookends at seventy years old. You know,

1083
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: I mean, two kids from the neighborhood who made it

1084
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: and survived not only the mailstrom of the sixties, but

1085
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: just the craziness of fame and just of growing older.

1086
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: You know, they're still alive, they're still here, they're still

1087
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 1: making music, and they're still friends. And you you, you

1088
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: you want sell badly for the end that way, you know, Well,

1089
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: I have to say that for me personally, I kind

1090
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: of like the tension that exists between them, because I

1091
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: think it makes them more interesting. You know, if it

1092
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: was just at sixties kind of piece five with this group,

1093
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 1: I think it would seem a little corny, like in

1094
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: a way. They remind me of Chrisby Stills, Nash and Young,

1095
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: who we are definitely gonna be talking about on this

1096
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: show at some point. I think we're any like twenty

1097
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 1: episodes of talk about that whole mess um. But it's

1098
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 1: just such a fascinating contrast to me between like this

1099
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: mellow music and then all of this anger and resentment

1100
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 1: going on beneath the surface. It gives Simon and Garfunkle

1101
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: an edge that I think they wouldn't have otherwise had,

1102
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: but they need, and it's part of what draws me

1103
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,760
Speaker 1: back to their story all the time. It's like, Okay,

1104
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 1: there's actually some real blood and guts behind those beautiful

1105
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: harmonies in this band. Yeah. And it's like JAF Jeff

1106
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: tweeting and j Ferrar too. You know, it's something that

1107
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,240
Speaker 1: that feels so relatable. Will have these these two school

1108
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: friends that you kind of grew apart from, and it's painful,

1109
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, there's pain when you think of

1110
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: all the shared history, but the fact that you really

1111
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 1: aren't aren't the same people and aren't seeing together eye

1112
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 1: to eye. Now, um, yeah, there's something painfully real about that,

1113
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: just at a human scale, and we all have those

1114
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: people in our lives and just with them, it's the

1115
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: same deal, except they just have songs that have become

1116
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 1: imprinted on generations of people. Well, I'm sure you and

1117
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: I Jordan are not going to be like Seminata funcle

1118
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:42,959
Speaker 1: may people up on a park bench of our own,

1119
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: sitting together like book ends, looking back on the hundreds

1120
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: of feuds we've recapped. That's my hope, my friend, it's

1121
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 1: a good one. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening.

1122
00:56:54,560 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more rivals next week. M Rivals

1123
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers

1124
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 1: are Shawn ty Toone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers

1125
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: are Taylor Chacogne and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan run Talk

1126
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 1: and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard,

1127
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: please subscribe to leave us a review. For more podcasts

1128
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: for My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,

1129
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,