WEBVTT - Juul Update: A Hazy Future? 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.559 The FDA preparing to order Jewel to pull its A 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.440 cigarettes off the market as early as this week. That's 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:17.000 a c NBC interview from the morning of June two 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.239 between Squawk Box host Joe Kernan and former f d 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.880 A Commissioner Scott gottlaib I suspect FDA is gonna look 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.360 beyond the application and look at the history of this product, 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:30.360 and that's going to be a factor in how they 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.519 weigh their decisions. So if they do reject Jewel um, 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.239 assuming it's not on some technical issue related to the 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.159 application itself, then I would my hunch would be that 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.360 it would turn on the legacy associated with this particular product. 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:49.479 Jewel has been selling its products here unregulated since it 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.960 took five years for the FDA to even request an 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.720 application and another two years for them to review jewels submission. 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.200 On the afternoon of June twenty three, just hours after 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.920 the Curran Gottlieb interview, the FDA finally announced that decision. 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:11.520 After a two year review, The US Food and Drug 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:15.400 Administration announced today that it will ban all vaping and 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:21.240 e cigarette products sold by Jewel. Some cheered, others booed, 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:25.360 but most just scratched their heads about the ensuing carousel 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.360 of perplexing plot twists, and since Jewel was a season 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.600 one fan favorite, we wanted to see how this new 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:36.720 news affects Jewels BS score. If you haven't listened to 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.959 the original episode, go check it out. We'll be right 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:47.680 here when you get back. In our initial investigation into Jewel, 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.280 we concluded that the E Cigarette Company was a bullshitter 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.640 worthy of a BS score of forty nine. Their stated 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.400 purpose to reduce the harm of cigarettes by giving smokers 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.600 a healthy your alternative had been overshadowed by their decision 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.440 to market directly to young people, which led to a 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:12.120 whole new generation addicted to nicotine their legacy. As former 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:16.880 FDA Commissioner got Lab called it, join us as we 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.400 welcome back a season one guest to decipher what this 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.480 means for Jewel and just what the heck is going 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:31.840 on at the f D. A Welcome to Calling Bullshit, 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.400 the podcast about purpose washing, the gap between what companies 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.720 say they stand for and what they actually do, and 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.680 what they would need to change to practice what they preach. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.519 I'm your host, Time onto you, and I've spent over 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.400 a decade helping companies define what they stand for, their 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.440 purpose and then help them to use that purpose to 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:58.400 drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, at a lot of 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:03.040 organizations today, they're still a pretty wide gap between word. Indeed, 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.960 that gap has a name. We call it bullshit. But 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:11.840 and this is important, we believe that bullshit is a 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:16.040 treatable condition. So when the BS detector lights up, we're 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.880 going to explore things that a company should do to 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:27.240 fix it. Okay, folks, I am very excited to introduce 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.440 Lauren Etter for her second time on the show. Lauren, 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.880 thank you for being here and welcome back to calling Bullshit. 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:37.840 Thanks for having me. Tie great to be here. So 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.160 just for our audience quickly, those who haven't listened to 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.080 the Jewel episode, it would be great to hear just 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.760 a little bit about your background. So I'm an investigative 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.000 reporter at Bloomberg News. I recently wrote a book called 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.240 The Devil's Playbook about Jewel, and I've been a reporter 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.800 for many years. So yeah, you were here the first 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.640 time to talk about Jewel. And it's a story in 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.960 which both Jewel and the f d A figured prominently, 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.240 and both of them, Jewel and the FDA have been 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.520 back in the news again lately. Can you walk us 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:17.839 through what happened? Absolutely, So, as your listeners might recall, 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.159 Jewel has been in the crosshairs of the federal government 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.479 and opponents of its product for many years. So since 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.919 it hit the market in the product came under a 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:34.400 lot of scrutiny both from regulators and from opponents who 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:40.760 blamed the company for essentially sparking a new youth nicotine epidemic. 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.359 So that was several years ago, and fast forward, the 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.200 f d A has been wayne whether or not to 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:54.360 allow Jewel to continue selling its product in the US market. 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.240 So for the past two years, the agency has been 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:04.560 reviewing a very voluminous application by Jewel that was essentially 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.440 the company's effort and way to say that this product 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.240 deserves to be on the market, it meets the regulatory standards, 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:14.960 essentially saying that it's a benefit to the public health 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.040 and it's going to ultimately help adult smokers quit smoking. 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.559 So this has been going on for a long time. 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:26.600 And as you might recall, Jewel reached unicorn status in 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:31.760 Silicon Valley. It was a multibillion dollar company that had 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:36.480 essentially garnered an investment from Altria, the maker of Marlborough's cigarettes, 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.000 and it was kind of a Silicon Valley darling for 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.640 a while, even though it had gotten all of this 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:47.120 bad press and negative reviews because of its public health problem. Yeah, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.960 and I would say a lot of that criticism was 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.720 I think, in many ways fair. In the first episode, 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.640 you and I agreed, and I learned this from your book, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.440 that there was no reason that Jewel had to get 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.320 negative press or feedback. But the fatal flaw was the 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.240 way that they marketed the product. That the product itself 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.080 would have been great for smoking cessation, getting people to 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.600 quit smoking, but smokers are generally older, and the marketing 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:21.200 of Jewel clearly, at least in the early going, targeted 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:25.520 young people. That's exactly right. So the founders of Jewel 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:30.600 created this product ostensibly to be an alternative to cigarette smoking, 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.440 and so that was what they said. But when the 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.200 product launched, initially, they introduced the product to the world 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:41.400 with a very splashing marketing campaign with images of very 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:45.480 youthful models in Times Square and all over social media, 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:48.560 and all of a sudden you saw a huge number 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:52.640 of middle schoolers, high schoolers starting to not only use 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.760 Jewel but become highly addicted to it. And that's the 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.560 key thing to remember about Jewel. It is a five 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:02.279 percent nicotine solution, which in each tiny little pod, the 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.280 amount of nicotine is equivalent to that in a pack 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.480 of Marlborough reds for examples. So it's a highly addictive product. 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:15.679 Young people with developing brains are uniquely predisposition to becoming 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:19.640 addicted to nicotine and it's extremely difficult habit to kick. 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:24.400 And this came on the keels of decades of actual 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:29.240 public health successes with youth smoking. Keen smoking rates have 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.760 been declining year after year after year, a real public 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.000 health coup, and then suddenly vaping and Jewel come along 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:38.000 and kind of blow that up and create a new 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.560 public health controversy. Right, So then the FDA has been 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.560 considering this and they rendered their opinion. What did they 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:49.480 have to say to Jewel? So it's a really surprising decision. Essentially, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.440 the FDA many years ago set out a regulatory framework, 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:58.360 and that framework stipulated that any new nicotine product must 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:02.960 go through a rigorous scientific review process by the agency 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:07.320 before it was allowed to remain for sale. Essentially, so 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:13.040 Jewel has stood by its commitment and claims that this 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:17.480 product will help adult smokers. So they put together gigantic 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:22.440 package of information, and people ask me even a year ago, 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:27.280 you know, will Jewel get the FDA authorization? And I 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:31.160 really was under the impression that they likely would. I 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:33.679 I always said I would be very surprised if the 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.840 f d A denied their authorization. For a number of reasons. 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:42.640 Number one, the United States is trying to move smokers 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:47.560 away from cigarettes in general. They're taking steps to dial 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.000 down the amount of nicotine in combustible cigarettes. The Biden 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:55.400 administration has moved in the direction of banning mental cigarettes. 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.360 So the whole idea here is there's a bigger harm 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.000 reduction kind of framework that the US is looking at 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.760 right now, which would be let's figure out ways to 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:11.120 migrate adults smokers off of deadly cigarettes and onto something 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.040 that is potentially less deadly. So there's a continuum of 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.640 risk there. Smokers can quit cold turkey, they could use 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:21.800 a pharmaceutical drug like shantext, they could use the patch, 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.880 and then there's also these other products now that are 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.040 more popular, like the cigarettes. So the f d A 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.280 has in a way kind of embraced this idea that 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:37.959 there should be alternatives for smokers, adults smokers, including the cigarettes. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:43.080 So given that whole context and backdrop, and knowing that 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.959 Jewel is the single largest maker of the cigarettes in 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.680 the United States, I thought it would have been surprising 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.600 if the f d A would move to not authorize 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.440 the product. Not only that, but Jewel is the only 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.160 product that Jewel makes essentially, so if the FDA were 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.800 to take them off the market, they would go bankrupt. 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.200 I didn't think that a company US, a federal agency 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.400 would be reluctant to do that. However, so fast forward 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:14.200 in June of this year, the FDA's long awaited decision 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.800 and much delayed decision by the way, finally came down 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.040 and they said, indeed that they were going to not 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:26.360 authorize Jewel to remain on the market, in essence banning 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:31.040 the product. It was a huge decision. It really took 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.560 everybody by surprise, even took people at Jewel by surprise. 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:39.440 And it has some very large and important ramifications. Right, 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:44.480 and my understanding is there's been a stay right that 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.600 Jewel petitioned the court to say, hey, don't make us 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:51.040 take the product off tomorrow morning, and that was granted. 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.240 Is that correct. Yeah, so it ended up in a 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:58.840 very unusual kind of space. So what happened was the 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.280 FDA makes this big splash the announcement, people who are 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.600 supporters of Jewel. Jewel people themselves kind of panic and 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.480 accused the f d A of not following the science, 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.120 of kind of veering outside their lane as a regulator 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.319 and arriving at this decision. And so a couple of 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.120 things should be pointed out. So one, the reason that 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:24.559 the f d A gave for denying their authorization was surprising. 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.760 You might have thought that it would have been, well, Jewel, 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:30.559 you caused this youth epidemic. We're going to punish you, 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.920 and we're not authorizing your product because your product is 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.840 not and further into the public health. However, that's not 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:41.000 what the agency said. The agency actually said, we are 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.079 not authorizing the product because Jewel did not provide enough 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:50.080 information to show that their products were not harmful. They 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.800 said that they did not provide enough science to back 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:56.360 up the claim that it wouldn't be damaging to human health. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.760 In particular, they actually focused on the pod and said 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.280 that the pod could be leaching, and Jewel didn't prove 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.559 that it wasn't leaching and wasn't causing human health concerns. 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.480 So it's a very unusual decision that was surprising in 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:14.000 a number of ways. So not surprisingly, Jewel immediately sued. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.200 They basically went to the U. S Court and asked 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.000 for an emergency stay, which would basically say, look, you 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.880 can't take our product off the market immediately. You have 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.720 to consider all these other factors, including the fact that we, Jewel, 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.680 we don't believe that the f d A did a 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:35.200 thorough and fair review of all of the science that 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:39.880 the company provided. So the court granted that emergency stay, 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:45.079 and then shortly thereafter, the f d A said, actually, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.120 they walked it back and said, actually, we're taking the 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:53.360 application back and we're going to continue reviewing it in 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:57.240 light of all of this information that Jewel had brought forward. Yeah, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:02.840 very very surprising and complicated the language they used. The 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.680 agency has determined that there are scientific issues unique to 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:11.640 the Jewel application that warrant additional review. Set off alarm 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.520 bells in my head. I don't know whether they set 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.880 off any in yours, but I'm trying to understand what 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:24.640 that means, you know, because I immediately went, well, there 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.160 has been some coverage about the pressure that the FDA 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.000 has been under from Congress to do something about jewel 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.439 and so it made me wonder, like, is the fix 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.480 in at the f d A? Is that why they're 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.960 walking it back because somebody got to somebody? Or do 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:45.440 you think that legitimately there are scientific issues that that 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:50.040 deserve to be reviewed. Well, I mean, I think there 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.120 would have to be a lot going on inside the 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.280 FDA to reach the conclusion that you know the fix 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.760 was in. I mean, certainly there are people who believe that. 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.880 I'm not one of them. I think that the agency 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.760 in general does and was acting in good faith. It's 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.760 just more than anything. To me, it indicates maybe the 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.400 agency has been overwhelmed with a number of applications, maybe 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:16.560 they're overworked. It's it just it's unusual. Doesn't quite make 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.760 sense to me. But I don't necessarily think the fix 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.440 was in. I think that they did have legitimate concerns. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.960 And you must assume that the agency gave a thorough 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.000 review to their product. It was it was being reviewed 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.800 for two years, so I agree. I apologize for interrupting you, 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.320 but there's something about this story that just bothers me. 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.440 First of all, not to beat up on on the FDA, 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.440 but it took them a long time. They let Jewel 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:51.320 market to young people openly with impunity for many, many years, 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:56.800 and and genuinely have now addicted a new generation of 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.720 young people to nicotine. Then they reviewed the decision for 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.760 two years and they come out with this very strong 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.280 response for some people, maybe too far for others. But finally, 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.000 you know, there's some some action on the part of 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.080 the FDA, and then they walk it back like that 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:18.160 just seems bizarre to me. Well, I would agree that 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:22.520 the the way that the FDA handled the Jewel matter 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:27.120 does not engender confidence in the agency, that's for sure. 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.600 It raises a lot of questions about how they could 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:35.920 have botched this, Why they didn't review every piece of evidence, Why, 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.120 especially after having it under review for so many years, 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.440 did they miss this key that Jewel claims that they missed. 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:49.760 It's it's absolutely unusual and unsettling. I just don't have 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.560 the answer as to why exactly the agency is doing 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:57.080 it other than what they've articulated in their public releases 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.880 and in court finlines. Right, I'd be curious just to 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.240 hear whether you personally think this ban is going to 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.960 hold or whether you think they're gonna walk away from it, Like, 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.960 what do you think the future looks like? It's just 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.240 hard to know this. This issue now lives in a 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:19.600 very technical administrative legal world. It's all about the Administrative 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.280 Procedure Act and whether or not the agency upheld its 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.120 end of the bargain essentially to do an unbiased review. 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:30.440 And what I will say is that Jewel is certainly 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:35.880 ready and capable to amass a legal defense. This is 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.280 what the industry does and what they have been essentially 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.720 experts at for the past five decades or more. They 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.400 have a bunch of lawyers, they're ready to litigate. So 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:50.000 this is not going to get resolved anytime soon. And 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.200 it's hard for me, without having a crystal ball, to 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.080 know exactly what the agency is ultimately going to do. 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.680 But in the meantime, it's a status quo. The product 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.480 is still available, opponents of the product are still out 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.160 there really upset that the agency has done this. I mean, 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.280 it's it's an issue that doesn't seem to want to 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.520 go away, that's not going to go away anytime soon. 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.840 I know, as we said in the original program, if 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.600 they had not marketed it to youth initially. If they 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.720 had gone after actual smokers and tried to get them 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.280 to switch, it would have been a great service to 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.679 the world, like honestly, and it's just a shame that 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:30.959 they didn't do that, and now things continue to be 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.800 sort of vague and messy. Well, and I would be 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.040 remiss to not point out the reason that that happened 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:42.160 is because this was a Silicon Valley startup that chased 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.040 one thing only, and that was hyper growth. This was 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:51.480 a company that wanted to attain unicorn status that eventually did, 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:53.439 and there are a lot of investors that meet a 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.360 lot of money. Had they chosen to go a more 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:01.240 plotting kind of responsible path, they might have ended up 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.440 making jewel. But jewel might not have ever seen the 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.800 light of day because no investor in Silicon Valley would 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.200 have invested in a company that said, hey, ten years 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.200 from now, once we have our approval, or fifteen years 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.879 from now, once we have our approval, will have this 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.280 great product that people are gonna love. So I fall 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.000 Silicon Valley and the investors on that side. And it's 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:29.040 interesting because the Silicon Valley solved a really profound technological 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.199 challenge in creating Jewel in the first place, one that 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:34.600 the cigarette companies have been trying to solve for years 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.040 and failed. And so in a way, it had to 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.040 come from the Silicon Valley in order to get out 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:45.280 of this sort of group think of the traditional tobacco companies, 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.240 but it putting it in Silicon Valley's hands created a 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:54.240 whole host of new problems. It's such an interesting story. So, Lauren, 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:56.879 thank you so much for coming back on the show. 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.440 It was great to see you, and we ship you're 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:08.040 being here. Thanks for having me, folks. After looking at 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.080 all the new facts, I'm going to keep Jewels b escort. 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.040 At forty nine. Jewel has taken none of the actions 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.000 we talked about in the episode in season one, and 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.520 their product is still available in convenience stores across the 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.760 country and around the world, within easy reach of young consumers. 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.320 So whether or not they sincerely want vaping to be 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.879 a path to smoking cessation remains to be seen, and 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.720 if the last two years have been any indication, we'll 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:40.480 be waiting a while to find out. However, in this 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.560 new chapter of the Jewel story, it's the f d 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.359 a's actions that perplexed me the most. Taking years to 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.560 make a decision on Jewel, then making a strong ruling 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:55.040 against it, then immediately walking that decision back just doesn't 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:58.960 add up. It made me wonder is there some bullshit 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.640 to be found in side the f d A. That's 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.280 why this season we've decided to deploy our BS detectors 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.800 on the FDA itself. Look for that episode in your 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.560 feed very soon. Thanks for joining me on this b 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.960 S update episode, and a special thanks to Lauren Eder, 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.399 author of the Devil's playbook Big Tobacco, Jewel and the 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:25.240 Addiction of a New generation. If you think Jewels BS 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.119 score of forty nine needs to change, let us know 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:32.000 on our site Calling Bullshit podcast dot com or on 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.639 Twitter at Calling Bullshit Podcast and friends. I'd like to 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.320 ask for your help. If you enjoy the Calling Bullshit Podcast, 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.840 please take a second to rate and review us on 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:47.560 Apple Podcasts or on your preferred platform. And thanks to 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.800 our production team Hannah Beal, Amanda Ginsburg, d s Moss, 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:58.280 Hayley Pascalites, Parker Silser, and Basil Soaper. Calling Bullshit was 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.440 created by co Collective and as hosted by me time 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:11.680 anting you thanks for listening h