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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello Psychoactive listeners. So today's episode

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Speaker 1: is about micro dozing, specifically of psychedelics, mostly LSD and

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Speaker 1: psilocybin mushrooms. My guest is Sophia Corb. She is a

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Speaker 1: psychotherapist working in two on Arizona, primarily with people you

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Speaker 1: know suffering from trauma. But my main reason for having

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Speaker 1: her on today is that she has been the point

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Speaker 1: person on a global survey of people who micro dos

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Speaker 1: now numbering up to eighteen thousand people from around the world,

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Speaker 1: and she's been working very closely on all of this

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Speaker 1: with James Fadiman, who many regard as the godfather of

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Speaker 1: micro docing. So I decided to have her on as

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Speaker 1: our specialist. So, Soythhia, thank you ever so much for

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Speaker 1: joining me on Psychoactive. Thank you for having me. So

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Speaker 1: let me just start off with some of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the kind of basics about micro docing. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: first one is what is micro docing? How do you

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Speaker 1: define micro docing? So, in general in medicine, when we

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Speaker 1: talk about microdocing, we're talking about a different response from

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Speaker 1: a large dose of something to a small dose. So

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Speaker 1: there could be micro docing of hormones, or micro docing

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Speaker 1: of another substance, or microdocing of psychedelics, So with microdocing

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Speaker 1: of psychedelics or not looking for a trip experience, but

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Speaker 1: there is a medical effect even at a very low dose.

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Speaker 1: Albert Hoffman, the inventor of LSD, had said that he

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Speaker 1: thought there would be a medical benefit of taking like

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Speaker 1: a quarter of a tab or a third of a tab.

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Speaker 1: So he had taught that to his students um and

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Speaker 1: so people have started doing these journals. They would take

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Speaker 1: like a quarter tab every few days and they would

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Speaker 1: write in a journal about their experience. So that's what

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Speaker 1: we thought microdosing would was going to be initially, then

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Speaker 1: later we found that it was much much smaller doses

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Speaker 1: that created a medical effect. Mm hmmm. So Albert Hoffman

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Speaker 1: kind of comes up with this idea, but it sounds

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Speaker 1: a bit like he's talking more about what we might call,

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Speaker 1: you know, not micro dosing, but mini dosing, where people

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Speaker 1: are actually experiencing the effect of the psychedelic but at

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Speaker 1: a you know, not a full blow in uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: macrodose level. But it's also something they're definitely aware of.

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Speaker 1: I think most of our listeners will know Albert Hoffman,

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Speaker 1: who sort of discovered or invented LSD back in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties, was he actually thinking about micro dose at

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Speaker 1: all on the way we think about it today. I

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Speaker 1: think it's impossible for us to know. The best evidence

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Speaker 1: that we have is from his students saying like he

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Speaker 1: was really interested in this, but wasn't quite sure what

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Speaker 1: it would look like, and was he himself doing it?

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Speaker 1: Not that I know of Hoffman's students did, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know if Hoffman did. I see. So I've typically

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Speaker 1: said that when it comes to l s D people

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Speaker 1: or any other drugs that we're talking about one tenth

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Speaker 1: or one what would be a normal macro dose level.

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Speaker 1: Is that basically what you say, Yeah, no visual difference,

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Speaker 1: no visual hallucinations. We initially told people there won't be

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Speaker 1: any perceptual difference, which is true in a way, but

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Speaker 1: we mean that there won't be you won't have hallucinations.

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Speaker 1: You might perceive that something is different, and that was

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Speaker 1: one part of confusion in the initial literature. We didn't

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Speaker 1: mean like you couldn't tell that you took a microdose.

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Speaker 1: Who just meant that you wouldn't be seeing things. What

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Speaker 1: Jim often says is like the laws are breathing even

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Speaker 1: a little, you've taken too much. So the idea is

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Speaker 1: micro dose that you should be receiving some difference, right,

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Speaker 1: this is this is going to get into this conversation

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Speaker 1: about placebo and double blind Right. So if what we

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Speaker 1: call breaking the blind is when someone can tell what

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Speaker 1: arm of a study that they're in, So in micro

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Speaker 1: Doo saying it's very hard to create what's called an

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Speaker 1: active placebo, which is where you'd effectively be able to

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Speaker 1: fool people into thinking that they weren't sure if they

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Speaker 1: had taken LSD or psilocybin or not. So that's very

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Speaker 1: very hard because people know what it's like to take

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Speaker 1: LSD or know what it's like to take psilocybin. And

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Speaker 1: it's hard to create an active placebo, especially if you're

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Speaker 1: using bladder paper because nothing else fits on bladder paper

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Speaker 1: that can cause like a very similar effect. So you

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Speaker 1: might think something like in the n y U studies

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Speaker 1: when they did the psilocybin studies, they used forty milligrams

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Speaker 1: of riddle in um as the control group. So that's

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Speaker 1: an active control. And if people had were psychedelics naive

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Speaker 1: and they had read something about psychedelics, they might expect

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Speaker 1: to have some different thoughts, to have more energy, and

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Speaker 1: they might expect the experience to last between four and

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Speaker 1: six hours. That I'll fit in with riddle in But

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Speaker 1: you can't get riddle of water paper and it won't

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Speaker 1: work for a microdoce. So that's one of the major

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Speaker 1: struggles in creating an effective double blind experiment. I see.

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Speaker 1: And what if one were to design studies that did

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Speaker 1: both a kind of total placebo, you know, with nothing

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Speaker 1: of sugar bail type effect and with a low dose

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Speaker 1: amphetamine and then with you know, different micro doses of

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Speaker 1: varying levels, I mean, with that help to get at it,

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Speaker 1: or that might that be a design of future Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think that that could be a design in future studies.

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Speaker 1: I think that when we're looking at things like depression,

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Speaker 1: we need to think about what exactly a placebo effect

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Speaker 1: for the treatment of depression would mean. How could someone

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Speaker 1: have a placebo effect? Do they think that they're not

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Speaker 1: as depressed as they are? Yeah? That becomes a little

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Speaker 1: bit tricky, right, because the perception of well being is

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Speaker 1: placebo effect and is also the opposite of depression. Huh.

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Speaker 1: So then you get into like, Okay, what what are

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Speaker 1: we doing and what is the what's the exact thing

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Speaker 1: that we're trying to get at right now? And if

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Speaker 1: you're creating a sense of well being in people, no

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Speaker 1: matter how we're doing it, that's going to take away

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Speaker 1: the their sense of depression. So with micro dosing, right,

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Speaker 1: it's not just about taking this lower dose, which I

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Speaker 1: think if I've often seen described this one or one

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Speaker 1: the kind of normal dose for a second. So that's

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Speaker 1: what we had, that's what we had normalized. After this

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Speaker 1: idea of like a third or a quarter, we realized

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Speaker 1: that people were still like they were like, I can't

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Speaker 1: sleep at night if I take like a quarter of

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Speaker 1: a tab, so we reduced it. We said, maybe tried

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Speaker 1: ten percent, maybe tried, and that seemed to still have

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Speaker 1: medical effects for people, but not be so overwhelming. Right,

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Speaker 1: So if people have a normal dose to say on

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Speaker 1: always going to be a hundred micrograms, under fifty would

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Speaker 1: mean taking ten or fifteen or maybe less, maybe as

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Speaker 1: low as five, right, And we've seen we've seen medical

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Speaker 1: benefit as low as two. And like, I'm pretty skeptical,

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Speaker 1: so I of course didn't think that people could effectively

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Speaker 1: dose themselves at too. But like this woman's husband was

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Speaker 1: a chemist and he did the dosing, so I trust

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Speaker 1: that he was able to get two micrograms. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I guess some of it depends on tolerance. You know,

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Speaker 1: watching your talk at Horizon Sofa, one of the best

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Speaker 1: laugh lines when you talked about, you know, well, the

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Speaker 1: normal dose from micro dose for many people with LSD

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Speaker 1: might be you know, five micrograms to micrograms. But when

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Speaker 1: lady Amanda Fielding, you know, who was just recently a

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Speaker 1: guest on Psychoactive, you know, she said that for her

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Speaker 1: a hundred micrograms was a micro dose because her tolerance

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Speaker 1: was so substantial. With respect exactly did you get other

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Speaker 1: people reporting that. Or is Lady amandas or the far

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Speaker 1: end of this. No, I think that she's the far end.

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Speaker 1: She's a great explorer. Um and she Yeah, she said

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Speaker 1: that for her, a hundred would have been a micro dose.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not sure anyone's using at that level right now.

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Speaker 1: I don't really know if people are using in the

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Speaker 1: way that she used to, which is to take ls

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Speaker 1: every twenty four hours. Uh huh. Now it's also not

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Speaker 1: just the dose, right, but it's also the frequency. And

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Speaker 1: I've read about there's a kind of two types of protocols.

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Speaker 1: Is the fatamin protocol and then there's the STA it's

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Speaker 1: the polls protocol. And I just explain more about that

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Speaker 1: and your thoughts about about those two. I remember when

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Speaker 1: I was creating this with Jim, so we didn't really

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Speaker 1: know because you don't know, you don't know. So we thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: we think from mk ultra that LSD lasted the system

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Speaker 1: around twenty four hours because you developed tolerance and it

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Speaker 1: stops working if you take LSD every twenty four hours.

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Speaker 1: So we thought, okay, let's give people like a day

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Speaker 1: in between their doses to let get out of their

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Speaker 1: system and see what happens because you're you know, we're

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Speaker 1: not going from anything. So that's what we suggested to people.

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Speaker 1: And then Paul Stamit's I think his protocol was a

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Speaker 1: day in betweets. I thought it was more like twice

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Speaker 1: a week or every third day. It was every third day,

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Speaker 1: so it was like one day of effect, one day

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Speaker 1: of just seeing how things turned out, and then the

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Speaker 1: next day was dosing again. So every third day. Okay, okay, right,

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Speaker 1: So that's the Fatamin protocol and the Stammits. I think

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Speaker 1: what I was reading was something like three days a

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Speaker 1: week and then off for the rest of the week

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Speaker 1: or something like that. The idea so sort of stack

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Speaker 1: them up and then um and then let people experience it.

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Speaker 1: I know that for us, we were doing it based

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Speaker 1: on this idea of tolerance and also an idea of learning.

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Speaker 1: So if people are having like a learned effect from

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Speaker 1: micro dosing, it might take some integration to be able

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Speaker 1: to to learn whatever they're learning. Um, So we wanted

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Speaker 1: to give them some amount of sober time. So we

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Speaker 1: asked people in the fought them in protocol to do

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Speaker 1: this for a month, right, so dose every third day

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Speaker 1: or whatever felt right for them for about a month

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Speaker 1: and report back their findings. So after that period, we

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Speaker 1: asked people what they continued to do, how did they

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Speaker 1: continue to micro dose after the study period, And what

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Speaker 1: we found was two major groups. One was people who

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Speaker 1: dosed once a week and one was people who done

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Speaker 1: who dosed once a month. So almost no one continued

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Speaker 1: at that initial level of of twice a week or

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Speaker 1: three times a week. Now, just explained a little more

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Speaker 1: about this survey. When did it take place, and how

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Speaker 1: many people and from what types of countries and what

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Speaker 1: types of drugs and all of that. Yeah, absolutely all right.

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Speaker 1: So when I started working for a gym, I was

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Speaker 1: a grad student at the Institute of trans Personal Psychology

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Speaker 1: and I have a strong background in math and statistics,

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Speaker 1: and as you might imagine people at the Institute of

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Speaker 1: Transpersonal Psychology, that's a pretty unusual background. So UM, I

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Speaker 1: needed money as a grad student. So UM I had

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Speaker 1: this professor, Jim Fattman, who seemed cool enough, um, and

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Speaker 1: he said, oh, do you want to work study job

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Speaker 1: doing math for my research group? And I said sure.

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Speaker 1: So I set out to try to prove all of

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Speaker 1: this drug stuff was just placebo nonsense. So we first

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Speaker 1: did some studies with like macrodocing, Like you know, he

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Speaker 1: was giving toxic colleges and we're asking college students like

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Speaker 1: what they did and what their motivations were. And then

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Speaker 1: I got the micro doce thing. So what was happening

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Speaker 1: initially was someone was sending out these journals. They were

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Speaker 1: mailing journals to people who are micro docing. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean by journals, Oh, I mean handwritten like notebooks.

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Speaker 1: You mean something for people to fill in. You mean

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Speaker 1: they blank blank notebooks books. Yes, they writing journal entries

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Speaker 1: and and my job was to digitize these handwritten journals.

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Speaker 1: And so that is no way to run like an

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Speaker 1: international study on drugs. So I was like, no, Jim,

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Speaker 1: we're not doing this. So I set up a Google

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Speaker 1: form and I used snowball recruiting. So snowball recruiting means

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Speaker 1: that if you're, say, doing a study of a population

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Speaker 1: who's doing something illegal or who might not trust you,

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Speaker 1: you have to establish trust with some members of the

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Speaker 1: group first, and then they introduce you to other members

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Speaker 1: of their group. So Jim Fadiman was well known within

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Speaker 1: the psychedelics community. I was not. So we gave out

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Speaker 1: this survey and so I know, designed a survey or

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Speaker 1: a couple of surveys, put it in on Google forms,

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Speaker 1: and then we handed the information out to people and

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Speaker 1: that that way I didn't have to like type up

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Speaker 1: people's handwritten journal entries. Um. And we could also get

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Speaker 1: some hard facts, so we could do depression screenings, we

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Speaker 1: could do anxiety screenings, we could get before and after snapshots.

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Speaker 1: And as we had more questions about what was going on,

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Speaker 1: we could survey the people who had filled out the

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Speaker 1: study in the past, like we could go back to

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Speaker 1: them and ask them, oh, we also have this question,

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Speaker 1: have you had a stroke? So then the next time

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Speaker 1: I looked at it, we had hundreds of entries, and

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Speaker 1: then very rapidly we had thousands of entries. Because people

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Speaker 1: love to share about their psyculic experiences. People love to

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Speaker 1: share about what helps what helps them. Uh huh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about errowd right though, fantastic source where

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Speaker 1: people go for information about different types of psychaelics. And

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Speaker 1: just as I don't know, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds

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Speaker 1: of thousands of accounts now over the many years. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So basically with the people feeling these journals, you're going

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Speaker 1: back and forth with them as or and they were

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Speaker 1: contributing questions. Also, we wanted to have them be a

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Speaker 1: really active part of this study because it's you know,

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Speaker 1: for them. So we're like, what do you want to know? What?

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Speaker 1: Why are you trying microdcing? What are you trying to do?

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Speaker 1: And so we could find out more information about what

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Speaker 1: people who were doing this wanted to know. And that

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Speaker 1: was really really useful because we would find out things like, oh,

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Speaker 1: even the people who say that they not depressed, they're

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Speaker 1: actually showing up as depressed on a depression inventory. Even

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Speaker 1: people who say, oh, I'm doing this to be more productive.

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Speaker 1: If I check in with them in a couple of months,

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Speaker 1: they've quit their job at a bank, and I don't

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Speaker 1: need to worry about them using psychedelics to be more

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Speaker 1: productive for capitalism, like they've you know, they've resolved that

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Speaker 1: in themselves in some way. So that was a really

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Speaker 1: interest and some of the things that people wanted to

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Speaker 1: study didn't pan out, of course. So we had like

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Speaker 1: a whole group from Louisiana who wanted to know if

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Speaker 1: microdocing would help them control their blood sugar better, and

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Speaker 1: the answer was no, it doesn't, not at all. Based

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Speaker 1: upon what you were hearing from other people in the surveys. No,

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Speaker 1: we we we did like a little study with them.

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Speaker 1: So we had like the subgroup of people who were

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Speaker 1: micro docing and they were taking their blood sugar um

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Speaker 1: and there was no effect of Yeah, so we were

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Speaker 1: able to do a little study and like eliminate that

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Speaker 1: as a possibility, um, which is a really useful thing

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Speaker 1: to do in terms of what we call pre clinical research.

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Speaker 1: This type of it's not a double blind, but we

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Speaker 1: can start to generate hypotheses about what clinical so you

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Speaker 1: should look at. So, so you just put this in

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Speaker 1: some time context. When did this survey begin and is

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Speaker 1: it did it come to an end? Is it still ongoing?

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Speaker 1: Still ongoing, it's just looking this up so um, it's

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Speaker 1: still ongoing because people find it really meaningful to fill

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Speaker 1: in the responses. So when did you start? Two sixteen? Maybe? Uhh?

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Speaker 1: And and how many people have participated something? Right? So

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Speaker 1: it's also there's different different tools, right, So there's like

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Speaker 1: a tell us about your experience in general, and then

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Speaker 1: there's a daily check in tool that some people are

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Speaker 1: still using even though we don't use that data for anything.

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Speaker 1: They just want to check in and let us know

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Speaker 1: how they're doing. One of the things we know about

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Speaker 1: psychedelics science is that psychedelists aroused the part of the

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Speaker 1: brain that wants to communicate. People want to share about

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Speaker 1: their experiences. That's probably why errowit is so popular. So like,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to listen to people's experiences, especially if it's

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Speaker 1: on the Google form, and I don't need to individually

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Speaker 1: listened to each person. I appreciate that, And we're able

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Speaker 1: to build like AI to read these people's stories and

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Speaker 1: see if there's just like, can a computer program tell

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Speaker 1: the difference between a mushroom psychedelics, a microdocing experience, and

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Speaker 1: an LSD one? Right? Can the artificial intelligence do that? Now?

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Speaker 1: Is there some kind of macro daddy you have now? Like,

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Speaker 1: for example, are the large majority micro docing psilocybin or

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Speaker 1: micro docing LSD? So the large majority of people that

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Speaker 1: we studied are doing one of those two things, either

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Speaker 1: LSD or psilocybin. Because we collected as much data as

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Speaker 1: people wanted to contribute, so we have data about lots

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Speaker 1: of like what we call the alphabetamy and so to

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Speaker 1: see I T C B people who are microdocing d

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Speaker 1: M key. Those are not large samples, but they're the

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Speaker 1: only samples that we have, so it's maybe not statistically

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Speaker 1: significant to compare them to the LSD ones. But we

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Speaker 1: can start to take a look and say, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is starting to look pretty similar. Maybe there's this major difference.

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Speaker 1: Maybe someone had like a bad reaction, you know, we

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Speaker 1: can start to get some information. Is there any sort

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Speaker 1: of significant third place after LSD and psilocybin in terms

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Speaker 1: of what people are micro docing. Some people are are

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Speaker 1: micro docing mushrooms um in combination, so like lions main,

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So there's a difference in our

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Speaker 1: example between people who are using psilocybin mushrooms and extracted psilocybin.

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Speaker 1: I've seen the phrase stacking I guess, which is also

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Speaker 1: associated someone with Paul Stammit's but where people combine psilocybin

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Speaker 1: with lions main mushrooms, which has a reputation in terms

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Speaker 1: of I guess memory or your cognitive abilities as more

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Speaker 1: for example, chocolate or cacao, which I think is you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of connected with sort of indigenous traditions of psychelic

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Speaker 1: taking in in the Americas, or with niacin, which is

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Speaker 1: also known as vitamin B three. So did you see

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Speaker 1: a fair bit of that popping up in your surveys.

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Speaker 1: We only in the end now that we start to

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Speaker 1: see this like stacking effect, it makes the statistics much

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Speaker 1: more complicated if people are doing lots of different substances

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Speaker 1: like it makes it much harder on my end, that's fine,

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Speaker 1: but in order to get to be able to know

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Speaker 1: things for sure, we kind of need to separate variables out.

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Speaker 1: So the problem with stacking is that it's hard to

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Speaker 1: know what's having the effect. I can say pretty conclusively

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Speaker 1: that the best, uh what we call new tropic like

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Speaker 1: things that help people think better is probably caffeine. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be really hard to beat caffeine. And when

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Speaker 1: people think that they're microtising and they're improving their cognition.

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Speaker 1: And I went through this with a bunch of different

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Speaker 1: people who wanted to study this. I gave them like

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Speaker 1: little cognitive tests to take every day, and they were

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Speaker 1: so excited they were getting better, and they did get better,

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Speaker 1: But they didn't get better because of the LSD. They

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Speaker 1: got better because they were practicing, because they were what

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Speaker 1: practicing if you practice, because it's the cognitive task. So

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Speaker 1: it'll be like, can you remember digits in sequence? So

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Speaker 1: if you practice it over and over, of course you

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Speaker 1: get better. But when it comes to stacking, then if

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Speaker 1: caffeine's a key one, it seems like caffeine is so

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Speaker 1: much a background drugs that two people even remember to

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Speaker 1: report it or is it just exactly part of the

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Speaker 1: lives of you know, a majority of all the people

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Speaker 1: in the world, or at least in the in the survey.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a really important thing for like the

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Speaker 1: clinical research to be able to start to sort out.

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Speaker 1: I'm also I'm not sure what we're looking at in

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Speaker 1: terms of the neotropic effect and caffeine, Like if we're

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Speaker 1: looking for stuff for people with dementia, I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: that caffeine is that helpful. But if people are looking

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Speaker 1: to enhance their work abilities, then of course those are

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Speaker 1: the people who are looking at things like medefanel and

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Speaker 1: adderall and caffeine. The medefanel is another stimulant or has

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Speaker 1: a stimulant like effect without being an amphetomy. Medefine is

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Speaker 1: a non stimulant that's used for a d h D.

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Speaker 1: It's a cognitive enhancer. It shows a lot of promise

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Speaker 1: for Alzheimer's and dementia. It is used off label for

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Speaker 1: antidepression right now. We think perhaps because it's pro cognitive,

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Speaker 1: so when people are to us, they don't think clearly.

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Speaker 1: So it's possible that as they take modaphanel, which was

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Speaker 1: originally designed as a anti narcolepsy drug. It was designed

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Speaker 1: for fighter pilots to be able to not fall asleep

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Speaker 1: while they were flying and to still make good and

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Speaker 1: not aggressive decisions. So it prevents people from sleeping without

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Speaker 1: being a stimulant, because eventually, if you take stimulants, people

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Speaker 1: start to make foolish decisions. So it's it's used pretty

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Speaker 1: extensively in geriatrics, and I know that it's being investigated

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Speaker 1: for a number of things now that it's off patent.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, dafinitely is definitely part of those stacks. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was basically long distance pilots I think in the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Navy who were allowed to use amphetamine oral amphetamine and

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Speaker 1: low does and by and large the Navy was finding

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Speaker 1: that effective that there were no accidents involving pilots using amphetamine.

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Speaker 1: Where is the number one clause of accidents I think

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Speaker 1: was fatigued and so the amphatic with amphetamine with amphetamine.

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Speaker 1: But then I think as amphetamine became more and more

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Speaker 1: controversial in the use of it, I think the the shifted.

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Speaker 1: This is my understand that they shifted to meda panel,

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Speaker 1: which supposedly did not have any kind of uplifting effect

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Speaker 1: in the way that amphetamine can have, and basically had

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Speaker 1: the intended desire of keeping these long distance pilots from

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Speaker 1: falling asleep. You know, you're in a plane for ten

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Speaker 1: twelve hours and your board to tears. They needed to

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Speaker 1: make sure things didn't happen there. How about micro docing

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Speaker 1: m d m A. So what I understand is that

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Speaker 1: from the initiatives, and this is why we excluded m

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Speaker 1: d m A from the initial m d m A trials.

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Speaker 1: So when you do a globle blind study, you want

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Speaker 1: to have an active placebo like we talked about, So

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Speaker 1: you want something that has the effect of the drug,

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Speaker 1: but not the full effect. So it's really common to

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Speaker 1: use a lower dose of the substance that you're studying.

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Speaker 1: So in the m d m A research, they tried

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Speaker 1: to use a low dose of m d m A

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Speaker 1: as their control group. So what happened is that people

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Speaker 1: had panic attacks that low doses of m d m

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Speaker 1: A cause panic attacks without having a positive benefit, and

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Speaker 1: so it's not used and this was arose of m

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Speaker 1: d m A or a mini doos of m d

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Speaker 1: m A. You we would have to check the n

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Speaker 1: y U study, but I want to say it's something

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Speaker 1: like forty or fifteen of MBMA caused panic attacks and

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Speaker 1: that so that's a mini dose. That's not a micro dose, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I wanted to understand why that we might

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Speaker 1: have that effect when you begin to have the impact

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Speaker 1: of the n DMA coming on. But it's kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, not quite there. There's really nothing really knowing

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Speaker 1: about many micro dosing of m d m A at

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Speaker 1: this point. Nothing I don't know because that we didn't

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Speaker 1: include m d m A and our samples. Jim feels

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Speaker 1: like it's not a traditional psychedelic so it's been pretty excluded. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and what about anything involving I've seen some articles about

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Speaker 1: micro dosing of THHC or cannabis. Did that show up

428
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,719
Speaker 1: in your study at all? People wrote about it all

429
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 1: the time. It's really impossible to distinguish that from a

430
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 1: background effect. So many people use cannabis, and cannabis is

431
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 1: so complicated because there are so many compounds inside of it,

432
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 1: inside of all of these botanicals, that it would be really,

433
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 1: really hard to distinguish what's going on there. I'm excited

434
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: about the cannabis research, but I don't know that much

435
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: about it. M So I'm guessing with your survey in

436
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: the eighteen thousand, that's a vast majority or that's the

437
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: substantial majority come from the US, and then you get

438
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 1: Canada and Britain in Australia. But what other countries were

439
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: popping up in interesting ways? Oh, there's lots of countries,

440
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: and there's lots of people who don't want to disclose

441
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: their country. But there's like Egypt and Bahrain, and China

442
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 1: and Japan, and there's lots of Western Europe. Of course,

443
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 1: Russia was popping up in some places. I'm sure Ukraine also,

444
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: Um and lots of people who didn't disclose. And just

445
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: that I'm using a VPN, I'm in Europe, which is fine.

446
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: I don't want people to get in trouble for using

447
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: minor doses of of any substance. There wasn't a control group,

448
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: right that you had basically a survey. We actually did

449
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: set up a control group, so I asked my grandparents

450
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: for help because I looked at the average age on

451
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 1: these some of these studies, um, and so we're looking

452
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 1: at people who are a little bit older. So I

453
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 1: was like, all right, can I just have a group

454
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: of older people take some cognitive tests like once a

455
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: week and compare them to the people who are micro

456
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: to thing? Um? So I had my grandparents, friends and

457
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: their elder community do these like cognitive tests and mood

458
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: tests and see what happened and what we were able

459
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: to find out, which, of course you never designed something

460
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: this way, but filling out a mood survey once a

461
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: day is a positive intervention. It makes people feel better

462
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,959
Speaker 1: just because you're checking in about how your mood is.

463
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: So we saw a mood elevation effect just from the

464
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: survey without any drug effect. Then we saw on top

465
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 1: of that and improvement on mood for the people who

466
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: are micro docing. But are people writing in about their

467
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: experiences not micro docing. There's we're so what are they

468
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: comparing it to? Is what? What is the control or

469
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: so we didn't control yet. So we controlled the cognitive aspects,

470
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: like we did a survey of the cognitive part. But no,

471
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: we didn't get journal entries from people not micro docing.

472
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: What did you find in terms of yes people why

473
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: they started micro docing, What did you tend to find

474
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: about that? So there's a bunch of different motivations, including

475
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: people who wanted to do it for creative read sends,

476
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 1: people who wanted to do it to get better at

477
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: their job. So we had sixty five percent people say

478
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: they wanted to improve their physical or mental health. We

479
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: had people say that they wanted to enhance wellness. Below that,

480
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: there's things like curiosity and creativity and treating their d

481
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: h D and so would you say that the large

482
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: majority of people in the survey were people who we

483
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: would define is basically fairly psychologically or mentally healthy, who

484
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: are just trying to improve things, or people are actually

485
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: suffering from some significant impairment and are trying to fix it.

486
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 1: The vast majority of these surveys were people who, um,

487
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: we're doing fine, and wanted to improve their lives in

488
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: some way. As this became more popular and we got

489
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: more media attention, we got more survey responses from people

490
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,719
Speaker 1: who were desperate, who had really serious medical or psychological

491
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: problems and wanted to treat them. And of course we

492
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: included those people also because they were also using microticity

493
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: to try to enhance their lives. So the initial population

494
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: was very, very healthy, and we excluded and this is

495
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: in portant to know. We excluded people who have had

496
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: bad psychedelic experiences in the past. So when people ask

497
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: me about micro docing and say things like, oh, I

498
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 1: had a bad acid trip, should I try micro docing,

499
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: It's like, absolutely not. We don't have any data on

500
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: people like you, Like if people are allergic to LSD,

501
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: they're excluded from my sample. So I don't know. Until

502
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: we do double blind experiments, we won't know how many people.

503
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: This is really helpful for because our data is limited

504
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: by the fact that we tried to exclude people who

505
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: might come to harm. But the initial question was why

506
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: are they doing the first place? And you're saying basically

507
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: to improve well being, to improve you know, I don't

508
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: know effectiveness whatever I mean. Was it also just things

509
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,959
Speaker 1: like I read about it in the newspapers or I

510
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: saw media reports about it, or friends doing it, or

511
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: did you ask how people heard about micro docing in

512
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: the first place. Yes, we did ask people have they

513
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: heard about it? I don't think that that many people

514
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: trying micro dozing because they read about it in the paper.

515
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but I think that people make changes

516
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: to their lives because they something they want something to change.

517
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that just reading about LSD in the

518
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: papers enough to like go source LSD, figure out a

519
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: way to get a very small dose into something take

520
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: it like a regimented schedule. That doesn't sound like something

521
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: that people do if they're not super committed. I think

522
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: that people would need to be committed in order to

523
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: do it. Did you ask people how they went about

524
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: sourcing the material then, because I mean, I mean, it's funny,

525
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: you know when I think about I mean, you know,

526
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: I've had experience, uh you know, getting for example of

527
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: friends who gave me a little container of liquid l

528
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: s D, you know, and one drop is supposed to

529
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: be ten micrograms, and so just you know, for the

530
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,239
Speaker 1: hell of it, I did one of the drops an

531
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: hour or so before I got into this interview with you.

532
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: In fact, I may have mistakenly done two drops. So

533
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,959
Speaker 1: we'll see if I have any more above you know,

534
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: sub perceptual effect, right, if you have to be sort

535
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: of connected in order to get that and then when

536
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: it comes to mushrooms, I mean, I don't know where

537
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: people are getting you know, basically powdered psilocybin. And if

538
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: you're doing mushrooms, you're talking about you know, this dried

539
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: plant product oftentimes. And how do you know about how

540
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 1: much to even cut? You know, what what pieces? Is

541
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: it a part of the stem or what do you

542
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: take a part of the cap or this part of

543
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: I mean, how do people learn that? Or did you

544
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: give advice about that? Yeah, these are really good questions.

545
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: So because we assume that things like the government and

546
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: the car Serrale State are reading our email, we did

547
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: not provide any information about sourcing anything. What we did,

548
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: and this is my standard response to people who want

549
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: to learn more about psychedelics, is google psychedelics interest group

550
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: and your city, So psychedelics interest Group San Francisco, Psychedelics

551
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: Interest Group, Tucson, whatever. Go to those places, meet those people.

552
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: If you're connected to the community, and then this is

553
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: true about drug users in general. If you're connected to

554
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: a community, you're much less likely to undergo harm. So

555
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: those people are able to act in safe ways, they're

556
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: able to source things, and then they're part of the

557
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: community that can help them. I also know that in

558
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: that psychedelic space there are people who sell mushroom kids.

559
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: So this is very helpful for my study because people

560
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: were able to be their own control, so they would

561
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: do the survey, say for thirty days as they were

562
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: growing their mushrooms, and then haven't thirty days micro docing

563
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: journey with the mushrooms that they grew out of a kit.

564
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: So I know that those things exist. I know that

565
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: it's not illegal to buy scores in the United States.

566
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 1: I know that it's not illegal to buy one p

567
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 1: LSD in Canada UM and I did not get involved

568
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: in any sourcing until the very end of this, which

569
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: is when Compass came on the scene. What is exactly

570
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: is the thing that's legal in Canada because there's no

571
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: analog Act in Canada UM, so they have to ban

572
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: each substance individually. So LSD is illegal in Canada, and

573
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: one key LSD, which is LSD with another part added

574
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: on to it, is completely legal. So you can get

575
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: one p lsduishable from normal l s D without the one. Yeah,

576
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: it's about so like one. I think it's hundred and

577
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: fifteen micrograms of one p s the same as a

578
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: hundred micrograms of LSD. It's a little bit and this

579
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: is basically essentially legal in Canada. You can get it

580
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: on the internet or I mean people to people actually

581
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: sell it in shops or is it just an internet thing.

582
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of shop you would buy

583
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: it in, but maybe it's just an internet thing. I

584
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: know that the researchers in Canada were able to source

585
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: one p ls D for their study and at a

586
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: very high level, meaning good manufacturing practices, which is the

587
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: standard of substance that we use in human trials in

588
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: the US and Canada and Europe, without a problem, whereas

589
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: LSD would have been more of a problem for them

590
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: to get permission from Health Canada. M I guess we

591
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: should just say for the benefit of psychoactive listeners. You know,

592
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: the United States does have the Controlled Substances ZACK for

593
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: many years, and it would be illegal to import even

594
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: the one p l s D from Canada, although I

595
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: am a large number of people are doing so, and

596
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: I hear remarkably few reports of anybody getting arrested for

597
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: something like that. I think that that's true, and I

598
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: think it's really important to know that there are natural

599
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: substances in our world that you can extract psychoactive materials from.

600
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: So I'm here in Tucson, Arizona, and San Pedro cactus

601
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: is legal and sold at the home depot here, and

602
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: you could extract d m T from that without that

603
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: much work, and it's not illegal unless there's distribution. We'll

604
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: be talking more after we hear this add So, supposing

605
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: I had a bag of dried mushrooms psilocided mushrooms in

606
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: my freezer, how would I know how much to take

607
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: for a micro dose. If you know how much to

608
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: take for a dose, then you're in good shape to

609
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: know how much you want from a micro dose. So

610
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: if you know a dose is this much of the mushroom,

611
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: then you want a tenth or twenty that The problem

612
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: is for people who are psychedelics naive, right, which is

613
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: why it's important to connect them to these larger communities,

614
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: because how are they going to know what's a good dose.

615
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: But if they know what a good dose is, then

616
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: they can take a that I mean, I have to

617
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: tell you I tried eyeballing it um from my mushrooms, Sophia,

618
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: and I was unsuccessful and I'm gonna be honest that someone, Yes,

619
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: someone gave me what was supposed to be a microw

620
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: dose of mushrooms in a chocolate and I was tripping

621
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: extremely hard. That was not a micro dose, and there

622
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: was still sort of mistake in the labeling, right. And

623
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: I've also know that you know, one bag opposed to

624
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: another depending upon either you know how potent is originally

625
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: or else how long it's been hanging around. You know,

626
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: they can vary by a factor of two or even

627
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: five in terms of podency. Sometimes absolutely, Yeah, So I

628
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: think it's hard to eye, but I think it's better

629
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: to start low and go slow, which is a general

630
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: principle of drug use. So in your survey, can you

631
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: say the large majority of people doing it doing microdocing

632
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: where people who had already done macro dosing in their

633
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: life or vice versa. We didn't think to ask that

634
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: question in the beginning, and then we went back and

635
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: ask people that question. So, yes, a lot of blue

636
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: Head macrodoced years and years before, so like thirty years before,

637
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: and then they tried microdocing, And a lot of people

638
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: tried macrodocing during their project of microdocing, which uses the

639
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: data a little bit, but not everyone. Not everyone who

640
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: tried microdocing had MACROWDOCE, and not everyone wants to. It's

641
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: a large time commitment, could be a large emotional and

642
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: psychological and spiritual commitment as well. Mm hmm. Now I

643
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: noticed and just sort of prepping for this interview of

644
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: Sophia and reading about microdoc thing, there was one term

645
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: I wasn't familiar with before that kept popping up, and

646
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: it's flow state. Just explain what flow state is and

647
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: why that kept popping up and discussions of microdocing, So

648
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: we only started popping up in after two I think.

649
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: So the idea of flow state is that when the

650
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: task meets the situation exactly perfectly, you can get into

651
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: this state where everything just sort of works. There's energized focus,

652
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: there's full involvement, there's enjoyment in the process of the activity.

653
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: It's characterized by complete absorption in what one does, and

654
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: there's a resulting loss in one sense of space and time.

655
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: So in a sense of being like in the zone,

656
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: would that be a comparable friend exactly? So when you're

657
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: when you're writing one night at also and everything is

658
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: just flowing, or when you're playing an instrument or giving

659
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: a talk, and just the words are just coming in

660
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: as you want them to. I'm a therapist, and I

661
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: would say that when I am really feeling connected with

662
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: someone and like I I just know what to say

663
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: and I know what questions to ask, and there's not

664
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: that effortful part of it like there might be when

665
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: I first meet someone. So it's like, oh, I just

666
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: know them really well and I just know what to say.

667
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: And then the session is over and it didn't feel

668
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: like either one of us did that much work, but

669
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: things really improved, and so we start seeing a lot

670
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: of those reports and people who are microdorcing for over

671
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: two weeks as people would microducing. I'm experiencing this um

672
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: more or the way I'm doing my job has changed

673
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: quite a lot. I used to be like really focused

674
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: and I would get like concerned about details, and now

675
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: that I'm microticing, I can see the bigger picture. I

676
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: can really put my effort where it's needed. Let's say

677
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: some more about that. I mean, you say it in

678
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: the work contest. What are the contexts and were the

679
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: people artists who are experiencing this writer's experiencing this uh

680
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: therapist experiencing this. I mean, you know how prevalent was this,

681
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: you know how how many different ways did to manifest.

682
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: So people are saying the effect of their relationships, they're

683
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: able to see how they want to interact with people

684
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: and take a step back in a different way. Um, definitely,

685
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: there are a bunch of artists who are like, oh,

686
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: I can change how I'm doing my work. There were

687
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: other therapists who wrote in there's a lot of students

688
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: in our survey, which is not that surprising because it

689
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: was a snowball study of people who are using drugs,

690
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: and if you get one student, they're likely to give

691
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 1: the information to more students, and so that that flowst

692
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: It was mentioned by a bunch of other people. Um,

693
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: do you want to hear about the other themes that

694
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: we saw? Okay, So the other two that we saw

695
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: a lot of where first, the cognitive experience of psychedelics use.

696
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: So you might not expect that if someone's micro docing,

697
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: they're going to have the same cognitive experience as someone

698
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: who's macro docing. So I would characterize the psychedelic cognitive

699
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: experience in two important ways. One that there's uh, there's

700
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: altered associations, you see things from novel perspectives, and the

701
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: other is that you're able to see hierarchy as wholarchy.

702
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: So people take apart their families, like in their minds

703
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: and think, what would it mean if I were the

704
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: dad right? How would my family be different? And they're

705
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: able to see things in a different way. So people,

706
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: even people who are micro docing, we're saying, oh, I'm

707
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: looking at problems in different ways, and like curiosity is

708
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: outweighing fear. Difficult problems are easier to start right now,

709
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 1: I don't mind making a mess in order to find

710
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: an examine solutions. So there's this like eagerness and curiosity

711
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: that went along with the cognitive experiences of microdencing. The

712
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: other thing that we consistently sub was about psychodynamics. So

713
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: people having a history of trauma in their own families

714
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: or in their own hearts, and they were able to

715
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,959
Speaker 1: go into that in a way that was controllable for them.

716
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: So what we don't want is people to have these

717
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: like emotional outbursts and not be able to bring themselves

718
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: back right. But people who were microdcing, we're able to say,

719
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: I can open it up a little bit at a time. Now,

720
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: in terms of the experiential effect, I mean, if people

721
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 1: are typically doing this every third day, are they feeling

722
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: the effect the day they take it, the day after,

723
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: two days later, or is there any pattern to this?

724
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: So that's a really important question. What we thought was

725
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: that there's going to be like only a learning effect

726
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 1: on the third day. So we thought, Okay, the first

727
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: day they're going to use the substance, the second it's

728
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: still going to be in their assistant. The third day

729
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: is going to be they're going to be clean, will

730
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: just be able to see what they learned. Um. But

731
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: we don't know that that's true. We don't know how

732
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: fast it's eliminated by the system, and we don't know

733
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: how the learning exactly is going to work here. So

734
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: what we saw is that over time there was there

735
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: was more of an effect. So in the first week

736
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: people are reporting effects that seem really improbable. It's possible

737
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: that this is placebo. You know, we talked about placebo.

738
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: Different placebo effects, one of which might be people are

739
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: taking charge of something that's bothering them in their life,

740
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: so they start to feel better because they're doing something

741
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: about it. So that's one placebo effect is like, Okay,

742
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: you're finally doing something. So that's maybe where some of

743
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 1: the mood elevation the first week of micro decing starts

744
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: out with, and then after two or three weeks we

745
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: start to see a sort of less anxiety, we see

746
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: less depression, but we also see an evening out of moods,

747
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: so like less less low lows and also sometimes less

748
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: high highs. Now two, people just keep doing this, you know,

749
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: for months and months and months or of most people

750
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: kind of do it for a few weeks or a

751
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: month or so and quit. And why would they do

752
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: either way. It's a really important question, and we have

753
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: done and we are continuing to do a lot of

754
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: work on that topic because one of the problems of

755
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: this type of survey research is that if people drop

756
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: out of the study, we don't know why. So you

757
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: can have really positive results because all the negative people

758
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: dropped out of the study. So we followed up really

759
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: extensively with people who lost touch with us and trying

760
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: to find out what was going on. So the of

761
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 1: people who micro dose for say a month and then

762
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: continue to micro does afterwards. There's these two groups, the

763
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: once a month people and the once a week people.

764
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: My basic summary is that the once a month people

765
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: are having like headache syndromes, So they're having migraines or

766
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 1: having cluster headaches, or they're having like lyme disease or

767
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: some medical problem that's able to be controlled with very

768
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: low levels of microdocing. The microdocing once a month to

769
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: prevent having these headache syndromes, and they're not interested in

770
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: taking anymore because that's the amount that they need to

771
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: do to control their headaches. Then there's the one to

772
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: weak people who seem to be more on the depression

773
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: and anxiety and of things. Those are people who who

774
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: are using microdocing for motivation and for mood. Um. I

775
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: think that that's a that's large majority of people who

776
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: continue to microdoce after the first month. The people who

777
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: don't micro doce who don't like it UM. So there's

778
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: a couple of groups. One is people who find it

779
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 1: to be anxiety provoking. So when we look at people

780
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: with post traumatic stress disorder, you can sort of classify

781
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: people into two groups. One is the people who are

782
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 1: sort of depressed and out of it, and the other

783
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: is the group of people who are having flashbacks and

784
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: are really um they have high neurological arousal. So people

785
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: who were depressed and out of it, they did fine

786
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: with micro docing. People who were having flashbacks did not

787
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: do well with micro docing and made them more upset.

788
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: So if they work with the therapists, say, and they're

789
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: able to control the neurological arousal, it seemed like microdocing

790
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: wo is a good tool for that group. But there's

791
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: definitely some people who find it to be too anxiety

792
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: provoking and it brings up too much for them. That's

793
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: one good yeah, But I'm a little confuseder because you

794
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: said it's the large majority of people in your survey

795
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: who said they were micro docing were people who were

796
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: basically doing fine and we're looking to just increase their

797
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: performance or mood or other things in general ways. But

798
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: the categories you've just described people who has severe migraines,

799
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: people have depression, that's not part of that first group.

800
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: These are people are really looking to try to treat

801
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: some type of really you know, substantial problem they're having

802
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: in their lives. I would say that in the people

803
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: who are like well functioning and using microdocing to enhance

804
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: their lives, in that once a week group, So some

805
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: of those people are depressed and they don't know it.

806
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: Some of those I think if we would survey the

807
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: American population as a whole, there might be lots of

808
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: people who are depressed and don't describe themselves as depressed.

809
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: But we didn't see a difference in depression inventory scores

810
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: from people who labeled themselves as depressed in people who didn't.

811
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: Just pretty sick difficant to me, So I think that

812
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,439
Speaker 1: the vast majority of people are doing fine, and those

813
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: people would fit in that like once a week. They're

814
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: trying to use microticity to enhance their life in some way,

815
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: and they'll continue to do so for months or even

816
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: years at a time exactly, and they might take a

817
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: break and they might you know, try other things, or

818
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: might start stacking as a result, but they report really

819
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: positive benefits and they continue to be in touch with

820
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: us and send us art and music like That's one

821
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: of the things that Jim and I most value is

822
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: people continuing to send us their stories and continuing to

823
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: send us like what they got out of microdcing, so

824
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: that those are the positive experiences. So there's also some

825
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: negative ones, and like I said, there's the people with

826
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: the g I problems. There's also people who um. We

827
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: know from the literature that people who have taken LSD

828
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: and lithium together have had seizures. So there were a

829
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,919
Speaker 1: number of people who didn't listen to that advice and

830
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 1: took LSD with a number of other substances. So we

831
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: kept track of who had a bad experience in substances

832
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: they were taking at the same time. So some of

833
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: the people who went on to use LSD and lithium together,

834
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: they did not have such a great time, and we're

835
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 1: not exactly sure why. So that that's useful information for

836
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: us UM and some people who say the experience psychosis. Yeah,

837
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: people who experienced psychosis can sometimes really like psychedelics, and

838
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: there's a theory behind that, which is that they're able

839
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: to explain their own disturbing experience by saying I took drugs, right.

840
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: So micro docing isn't great for those people because they

841
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: can't blame the psychedelics for their psychosis because they're not

842
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: taking enough, So they didn't get a lot of relief

843
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: out of that like they might be expecting to. So

844
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: people with psychosis did not like microducing all that much. Okay,

845
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: So now Sea, let's turn to the big question that's

846
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: been popping up in the last year, which is you

847
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: now have these three published studies, right, and I think

848
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: of them, one is the one where the first author

849
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 1: is abolished saghetti, I think a Hungarian researcher. The second

850
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: is when I think out of Chicago and the thirds

851
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: of Dutch study, and all three of these, you know,

852
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: we're done. Oftentimes the researchers who are leading figures in

853
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 1: psychedelics research, and obviously I think to some exam advocates

854
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,439
Speaker 1: of the benefits of macrodo saying and it's not clear

855
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: that any of them had it in for micro dose saying,

856
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: and some of them came away disappointed, saying, you know,

857
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: when all of a sudden done, we're finding that it

858
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: seems to be overwhelmingly placebo effect, and that even you know,

859
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: when you have controlled double blind studies, that far more

860
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: significant than whether or not people got the actual micro

861
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: dose as opposed to placebo, is what they thought they

862
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: were getting. Um, So what's your take on these studies?

863
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, first of all, you know, you know,

864
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: and even the authors of this you know, are kind

865
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: of wishing it didn't come out this way. And so

866
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: they're saying what could be wrong with their own studies,

867
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,919
Speaker 1: how might we find a stronger impact, and what would

868
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: be the limitations here? But what's your your sense of

869
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: of what these studies? You know what they mean, and

870
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: did they give you pause in terms of how you

871
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: were thinking about the work that you and Jim are doing. Yeah, definitely.

872
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: So I encountered one of these proof Like I was

873
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: speaking at a cannabis conference with some other researchers and

874
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: they had just come out with a study, and I

875
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: was like, Wow, that's really bizarre because if if it's

876
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: true that it's just placebo, we would have needed way

877
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 1: more people in my study to get such a strong effect, right,

878
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: So you would need like a huge number of people

879
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: statistically to create any sort of power if it's just

880
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: a placebo effect, because it could be just like a

881
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: low level effect on depression. So that's possible, and I

882
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: will say that there's lots of depressed people, so we

883
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: don't need like really high power. If we're improving depression

884
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: just a little bit, that would help people a lot.

885
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: It's not like prozak is a good drug, right, Prozac

886
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: is like notoriously bad, So even if we help people's

887
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: depression a little bit, that would still be worth it.

888
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: So that's one thing that that's what I thought of initially,

889
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: where most of these control double blind studies involved what

890
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: a few dozen people or something like that, right exactly,

891
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: So like even if we're only looking at okay, you

892
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: need like a lot of people to show any effect

893
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: on depression. Okay, people are really suffering from depression, and

894
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: that might still be worth it for us, because it's

895
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: not like there's great alternatives in the psychopharmacopia, and especially

896
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: since there appeared to be relatively few negative consequences that

897
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: have been exacted so far off micro dosing, and most

898
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: of those negative consequences things like, as you were saying,

899
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: g I or anxiety or what have you, just go

900
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: away once you stop doing it right exactly, and as

901
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: opposed to things like discontinuation syndrome from SSR eyes, which

902
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: could be really significant in a lifelong way. So that

903
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: was my initial thought, and then I spoke to Jim

904
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: about it that evening because I was speaking at this conference,

905
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: and he said, oh, did you look at how many

906
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 1: broke blind? And I said, no, what's the what's the result,

907
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: And he said it's over seventy percent. So if we're

908
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: looking at over seventy or eight percent, just explain that.

909
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 1: When you say break block, that means they were cheating

910
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 1: and looking or it means that the dose was sufficiently perceptual.

911
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: There's actualize that they were taking something they were able

912
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 1: to figure out. Yeah, breaking by means that you're able

913
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: to figure out what arm of the steady you're in.

914
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: So if people can tell if they're in the placebo

915
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: group or not, then we're not looking at a placebo

916
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: if that were it just a drug effect can include

917
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: knowledge of taking the drug. Should find fifty percent breaking

918
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: blind are fifty percent basically being consistent. You think you

919
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: ask people how how sure they are? Yeah? I think

920
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: they ask people have sure they are? And sometimes people

921
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: say like I don't know, um, and yeah, if we're

922
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: looking at and I'm like, okay, well we need to

923
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: look at like this, that's not really a double blind experiment.

924
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: And so but what are the implications if people figure

925
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: it out? Wouldn't that with that bias in favor of

926
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: finding a result, Yes, it would buy us in favor

927
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: of finding a result, but not necessarily a positive result,

928
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: So it depends on the person's association with substance. So

929
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: if they are able to figure it out, then they'll

930
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: be Okay, I'm in the active group, or I'm in

931
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: the active group today, right, So they're more likely to

932
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: pay more attention to their own experience, so they're more

933
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: likely to have every sort of side effect. They're more

934
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 1: likely to also have a drug effect, So it could

935
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: break both ways if people know that they're in the

936
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: active group. And this was true in all three of

937
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: the big control double blind studies I think, so I'm

938
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 1: not sure that they all ask people how often they

939
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: could tell. And some of those studies involved gaving. I

940
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: think both did. I think I can't remember now exactly,

941
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: but maybe one involved givings, say maybe with LST five micrograms,

942
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,959
Speaker 1: whereas another group might get twenty micrograms or something. Yes,

943
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: And the British study, the one that I'm thinking about,

944
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: they did this like complex thing with QR codes and

945
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: envelopes where they had people like I think, get on

946
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,240
Speaker 1: video and shuffle the bladder paper and like the envelopes

947
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: of bladder paper that contained bladder paper in like a

948
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: really complicated and scientific way so it's possible that just

949
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 1: wasn't super effective as a way of blinding the study,

950
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: so people were able to figure out which of the

951
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: water paper really had LSD on it. Mm hmmm. But

952
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: I saw that a couple of guys involved these study.

953
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: Van Elk, I think is one of the authors in

954
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: David Ritsil I think in the UK's another. Both said

955
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: it was it was actually a pretty good New York

956
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,959
Speaker 1: Times article about this a few months ago. I thought

957
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: that was fairly fair minded. And they both said Erotsi

958
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 1: and Van Elk said, you know, they think they're just

959
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 1: gonna stop working on microw doos for now, that they're

960
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: going to go back to studying macrowdos because they even

961
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: though they weren't convinced that microw doos had no effect,

962
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 1: that it was just placebo, they thought it was potentially

963
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,439
Speaker 1: less interesting to be working on in the future. Yeah,

964
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: So Ariso, who's is who I'm thinking about in the

965
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 1: British study where it was like seventy year eight percent

966
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: of people broke the blind there, So it's possible that

967
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: macrodocing just has more potential, right, So, like it's possible

968
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: that what we're seeing is a slow effect with microdocing

969
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: of the same thing. And so maybe, just like with ketamine,

970
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 1: what we want is for people to do like a

971
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: low dose thing in a doctor's office, have a relief

972
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: from depression for six months, and then do it again

973
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 1: and six months. That might be a better thing than

974
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: micro docing once every three days or once a week.

975
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,959
Speaker 1: We don't know yet, but I think looking at both

976
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: of those possibilities makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I

977
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 1: saw made an interesting comments though, and I just wanted

978
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: what your reaction to this is. He said, He said,

979
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: you probably only participate at this point in a trial

980
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 1: in micro docing if you really have a strong belief

981
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: that this might help you. And when people expect to

982
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: benefit from a trug, they typically do. Yes. I think

983
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: that that's absolutely true. I think that people don't participate

984
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: in drug trials because they don't want to get better,

985
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: but also the element of believe, wanting to believe that

986
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: this drug is helping. Yeah, and that's always a that's

987
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: always an issue in these types of surveys and or

988
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: this type of study. And there's also the issue of authority.

989
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: So we know one of the placebo effects has to

990
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: do with feeling like you're undergoing a medical treatment by experts,

991
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: So like a placebo shot is more effective than a

992
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: placebo pill. Right there, there are placebo like sham surgeries,

993
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: Like if you feel like someone really cares about you,

994
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: then you're likely to get better even if it's the placebo.

995
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about placebo effect, we need to

996
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 1: really figure out what is the thing we're talking about.

997
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: Because if people are getting better from depression by taking

998
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: like one microgram every month, like why not? I think

999
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: there's very little Yeah, there's very little harm to that,

1000
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: but there is a We don't want to fetishize the

1001
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: substance itself, right, We want to tell people that the

1002
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: power that they have to control their own depression that

1003
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 1: has to do with the inner work that they're doing.

1004
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: It's not the substance itself. Let's take a break here

1005
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: and go to an ad. What's out there in the ethos,

1006
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: the media ethos, the cultural ethos is that this that

1007
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 1: this works, macrodo thing or in this case microne saying right,

1008
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: the more likely it is to work, and the more

1009
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 1: likely and the more powerful the placebo effect, right because

1010
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: of that broader media cultural context. And conversely, if a

1011
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: reverse narrative gets going that we've done three control double

1012
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: line studies and they're showing that, you know, micro docing

1013
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: is no more than placebo, and we're actually seeing any

1014
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: real difference. When you really can blind for all of

1015
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: this stuff, then in fact it has the opposite effect

1016
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,919
Speaker 1: that people are less likely to believe in the intervention,

1017
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: and that therefore micro docing, you know, whether with real

1018
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 1: micro docing or the placebo effect of micro docing therefore diminishes.

1019
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: And I wonder if it's possible to track that because

1020
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: a lot of these three studies, I think the control

1021
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: double lines have just come out in the last year

1022
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: and a half or so, and so a lot where

1023
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 1: is the coverage of the issue? A couple of years

1024
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: ago was much more upbeat and positive. You know, you

1025
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: had Iolett Waldman's book coming out a really good day,

1026
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: and when she talks about how micro docing, you know,

1027
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: saved her life. You know all that, and so you know,

1028
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 1: so you have all of this positive stuff, and now

1029
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: when you google micro docing, you know, you know, no effect,

1030
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: no better than places bow is likely to pop up

1031
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,839
Speaker 1: when you do any kind of research. Is there any

1032
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: way you think you'll be been to pick this up

1033
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: in your surveys, that people having less faith in it

1034
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: and therefore getting less benefit. It's an interesting question, especially

1035
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: if you think about the contemporary landscape around depression treatment

1036
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: in general, because if you would google say S s

1037
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: R I, I'm not sure how much you would see

1038
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: about placebo. But we know a huge part of what's

1039
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: happening when people take S s RI s and have

1040
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 1: a benefit, there is placebo, and that has to do

1041
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: with medical authority as well, because that's a mainstream treatment,

1042
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: So it might be less effective than than microding. So

1043
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: I don't know how we'll be able to sort that out.

1044
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not super worried about it because it's like, Okay,

1045
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: I'm not a psychedelics advocate, So if micro docing isn't

1046
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 1: helping people, then don't do it. And if it is

1047
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: helping people in them, let's do it. But in order

1048
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,479
Speaker 1: to figure this out, we're going to have to do

1049
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,240
Speaker 1: double blinds in a way that makes more sense. And

1050
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: what we're looking at right now is some like really

1051
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: intense medical stuff. So when you do surveys of thousands

1052
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: and thousands of people who have a variety of different

1053
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,240
Speaker 1: medical conditions, and just ask them what happens. This isn't research,

1054
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: this is just search. We just found out. So there's

1055
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: this idea of HARKing or people called pa hacking. So

1056
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: HARKing means hypothesis after results known, right, So that's not

1057
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like we, right,

1058
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: we surveyed like eight people who are micro docing, and

1059
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: then some of the people are like, oh, I'm a

1060
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 1: VET and my phantom limb syndrome is getting better. It's

1061
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: like that might be random, right, but we weren't looking

1062
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: for it, and then we can design a follow up.

1063
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: So we're working with the v A on not phantom

1064
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: limbs specifically, but people who have paralysis who started when

1065
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: they were micro docing getting twitches in their paralyzed limb.

1066
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 1: We don't know why that occurs, but we see that

1067
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: pretty consistently. So like, that's an interesting effect, and so

1068
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: I don't think it in terms of the medical I

1069
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 1: don't think it's place because we're seeing a bunch of

1070
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: weird stuff that consistent with itself, right, right. You also

1071
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: mentioned things like people who are you know, suffering terrible

1072
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: pain from shingles, finding that significantly alleviated right, or that

1073
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: people would startart finding um, you know, they were finding

1074
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: little improvements people. Yeah, So we're looking at what people

1075
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: call the garbage pale diagnosis, which is not meant in

1076
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: any sort of derogatory way. There's a set of diagnosis

1077
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: diagnosis not meant any sort of derogatory exactly, different phrase

1078
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: for it, thing you have a guy's exactly. So it's

1079
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: these stigmatized conditions m and people who get sort of

1080
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,919
Speaker 1: um shifted to the back of the line, so things

1081
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 1: like fibro and myalgia, toxic mold sensitivity, UM, chronic fatigue syndrome.

1082
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,439
Speaker 1: So there's these comorbid conditions that we don't understand very well. Um.

1083
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: So what I mean by comorbid is that these people

1084
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: will be diagnosed with more than one of them, and

1085
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: so it's not clear what the correct diagnosis is. It's

1086
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: probably stuff we don't understand that well medically. So we're

1087
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: doing a survey of those people with those sets of

1088
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: syndromes in particular because we don't know what's going on.

1089
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: But they're pretty desperate and they're seeing some effect from microdiscing.

1090
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 1: So that's one group, um, and those people are are

1091
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: really suffering and doctors aren't listening to them. There's the

1092
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 1: people with paralysis, and there's the people with traumatic brain injury,

1093
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: and then there's the people dimension Alzheimer's, and so those

1094
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: are some really important groups. For the headache suffers, we

1095
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: kind of know what's happening because of SUMA trippedan because

1096
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: because migraines. We don't know exactly what causes migraines, but

1097
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 1: we do know that one of the most effective treatments

1098
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: is on the market is something that's related to LSD.

1099
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: So it's not really surprising to us that low doses

1100
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: of LSD would also alleviate migraines because puma tripped and

1101
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 1: is related to LSD UM and cluster headaches the same.

1102
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,280
Speaker 1: So we're looking at fast tracking for those two conditions

1103
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: for cluster headache and migraine suffers, but for depression, like

1104
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: then we get into this like what if it's a

1105
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: placebo effect thing? And so I am very curious about

1106
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: like how this is going to turn out. How do

1107
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,439
Speaker 1: we distinguish what is the placebo when we're talking about

1108
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: depression in the first place. You know, I have to

1109
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: tell you so in reading about all of the stuff

1110
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: in micro docing, it got me thinking a fair bit

1111
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 1: about the whole phenomenon with CBD. Right, So, we know

1112
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 1: from the medical research that CBD actually can have very

1113
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: significant therapeutic effects for particular conditions, and that is fascinating

1114
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: research going on about this. But meanwhile, there's been a

1115
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: multibillion dollar industry that has emerged that's largely unregulated, with

1116
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: people selling CBD and drinks and food and motions and

1117
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: lozenges and you name it. And and virtually none of

1118
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: these are backed by any types of control, double blind studies. Right,

1119
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 1: you know, this will heliar on fright, this, this this will

1120
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: make you feel better, all this sort of stuff, and

1121
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 1: and you know, and and in a way, I think

1122
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: many of the people in the CBD industry, not all,

1123
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 1: but most of them may prefer that they're that these

1124
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 1: studies don't happen because they're doing pretty well based upon

1125
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: all the hype around CBD. And I'm thinking, you know,

1126
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: once again with microdoc thing, there is clearly something happening

1127
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: and going on there um, but it's actually you know,

1128
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 1: it's an extent that the hype is out there, the

1129
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: positive stuff, and the extent that there's a really powerful

1130
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: placebo effect, whether or not the actual substances making a difference.

1131
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: This is potentially an industry worth billions and billions and

1132
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: billions of dollars, and we think about, you know, all

1133
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: of the way in which you know, compass a tie.

1134
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: The for profit companies are all coming into the psychelics thing.

1135
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: You know. One of the points that people make is

1136
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: that for a lot of these studies, this is not

1137
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: something with macro dooz saying that it has to be

1138
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: done therapeutically, you know, day after day, week after week,

1139
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: months at two months. Sometimes it's just doing one trip

1140
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: or five trips or ten trips or periodic trips where

1141
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: there's not a big profit upside on that right where

1142
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: the profit is gonna come and creating the setting and

1143
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: the psychotherapist and all that sort of stuff. But when

1144
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: it comes to micro dozing, where people are potentially doing

1145
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 1: something three days a week and maybe not just for

1146
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: a month, but maybe over sustained periods of time, or

1147
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: doing it this month, taking a break another month, it

1148
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: taught that there you have a market of people consuming

1149
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: a psycholic substance in very lowest doses where the where

1150
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: the level of potency right is crucially important so you

1151
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: want this to be illegally regulated industry because people want

1152
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: to know whether they're getting five micrograms or eight micrograms

1153
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: or twelve micrograms, or they're not getting something else exactly,

1154
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: both both the both for the purity and also for

1155
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: the potency stuff. So it seems to me that in

1156
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: the psychedelics, like the profit driven side of the psycholics,

1157
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: renost science has a huge interest in there being something

1158
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: to this micro dosing. And as you step back, how

1159
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: do you think about the way in which the micro

1160
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: dozing plays out in this ever growing capitalist market of psychedelics. Sure, yeah,

1161
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 1: I've got lots of negative things to say about capitalism,

1162
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: but specifically about the I'm really curious that this micro

1163
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: docing piece of it essentially. I mean, you know, as

1164
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: I've had various you know, guests talk about what are

1165
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: the consequences of all the for profit investment and how

1166
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: most of them any driving the researches for profit and

1167
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 1: they're paying and giving money the university programs. But on

1168
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: the micro dos thing thing, it seems like a particularly

1169
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: acute issue because it's something that could be ongoing for

1170
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: profit you mean, yeah, and because people are going to consume,

1171
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 1: you know, not just you know, three doses once or

1172
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: three doses a year. They're potentially going to be consuming

1173
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: fifty or a hundred doses a year and maybe for

1174
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: long periods of time. Yeah. Absolutely, FDA became really interested

1175
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: when we started saying, like, okay, the doses that we're

1176
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,959
Speaker 1: looking at for a medical effect. Even if you would

1177
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: give people like film, right, like like strips of LSD

1178
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: like once a week and they would combine all of

1179
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: them for the month. Like, when we start looking at

1180
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: doses that people could never get high on, then the

1181
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: FDA is like, oh, now we're interested. I mean they're

1182
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: worried about things like people abusing and diverting their doses. Right,

1183
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: So we are looking at a huge there's a huge

1184
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 1: profit opportunity here for capitalists. Um And like I know

1185
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: personally as a researcher, my name was included in a

1186
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 1: company that I was not affiliated with and was being

1187
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: used to sell something or to propose selling something. I

1188
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: think that the encroach of capitalism is a huge, huge

1189
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: problem here, and I think that what we did together

1190
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: as the psychedelics community to try to control that in

1191
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: certain ways was really positive. So we signed an ethical

1192
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: pledge Altogether, we worked on that and that included things

1193
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: like all the research needs to be open and upfront.

1194
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: When Compass took anti competitive action, I got on the

1195
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 1: phone and started calling pharmaceutical companies in Canada and got

1196
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: research grade LSD for other survey for other studies. So like,

1197
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: we need to work together to prevent the encroach of capitalism.

1198
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: But in the realistically, what are the profit motives? So

1199
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: if people are looking at an indication for depression, that's

1200
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 1: a huge market. That's what motivates these studies. So in

1201
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 1: order to take a drug to market, but that's a huge,

1202
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: huge investment of time and money, and because LSD is

1203
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: not under patent, you would need a sponsor to do that.

1204
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: So that's when you look at things like Compass patenting

1205
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 1: one version of LSD or psilocybin and then trying to

1206
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: take that to market. But if we were to use

1207
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: different statistical tools and pool research and pool studies in

1208
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: a different way, then we could start to not need

1209
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: the same type of pharmaceutical sponsors for indications. The other

1210
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: thing is that if people were able to say, Okay,

1211
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 1: maybe it's a placebo, but I'm gonna take my health

1212
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 1: into my own hands. Right now, I'm gonna try to

1213
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 1: talk to my psychuloics community, figure out my own micro

1214
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: do saying, figure out a stack that works for me,

1215
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,959
Speaker 1: that reduces the power that we give to these pharmaceutical

1216
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,439
Speaker 1: companies who are going to try to sell as LSD

1217
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 1: as a treatment for depression. So if people are able

1218
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: to rely more on their own communities and themselves, then

1219
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: there's less of a profit motive. But this is a

1220
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 1: really really hard issue. I think people need to get

1221
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 1: together and work on this together. You know, I'm normally

1222
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: an advocate that you know legalization, legal regulation is the

1223
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 1: right way to go. Yet I can also point to

1224
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: counter examples. We're having. A decriminalized situation can actually be

1225
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: the preferable one, although it's hard to sustain that for

1226
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: a long period of time. And one can imagine a

1227
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 1: world in which you have micro docing and a world

1228
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: where no no for profit legal company like Compass has

1229
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 1: succeeded in improving that micro dosing works, or has succeeded

1230
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: in disproving and sowing that it doesn't work. That allowing

1231
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:38,919
Speaker 1: that to happen, I mean, you don't have the risk

1232
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: in the psychelics like you have, for example, with opioids,

1233
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 1: right with the fentinyl market now where a hundred thousand dead,

1234
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, seventy of them because of an adulterated drug

1235
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 1: supply involving fentanyl. That's not the risk you have with psychedelics.

1236
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 1: And then so I'm thinking that to the extent that

1237
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: this actually stays, we might still have a risk of

1238
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 1: adulteration though right, you still have a risk, but it's

1239
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,160
Speaker 1: a fair really minimal risk. We're not necessarily things fatalities.

1240
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 1: Taking a step back to the adulteration question, so it's

1241
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: true that we're not seeing fatalities, but when we see

1242
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: rich celebrities who are dying um from fentanyl from taking ketamine,

1243
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 1: we know that there's fentyyl and everything. Right, and because

1244
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 1: of the current supply chain management issues in the car

1245
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 1: Serra state, it makes most sense for drug smugglers to

1246
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: try to get as much across in as little package

1247
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 1: as they can, which means fent atyl. So fentyl might

1248
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: be in everything really soon, and I wouldn't say that

1249
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 1: it's necessarily safe. We recommend that everyone test their substances.

1250
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: You can buy testing kits on Amazon. Test your substances,

1251
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: No I actually just saw a report in the papers recently,

1252
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: was about early June here of three kids dying of

1253
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: the federal overdose where they thought they were getting M

1254
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 1: D m A. So yeah, there's been a lot of

1255
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: stories of the coups and putting out there about fentonyl adulteration,

1256
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: especially evolving cannabis sometimes other drugs that have proven i'm

1257
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: coming to be false. But the fact is, you know,

1258
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 1: there's both. But whether it's drug dealers making mistakes, I mean,

1259
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: there's not much reason to see why they'd have incentive

1260
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 1: to put it. You know, nobody only figure out why

1261
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: there's sentanel in the stimulant drugs, for example, in cocaine,

1262
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: or especially why there's an M D m A or

1263
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 1: things like this, I think assume that people who are

1264
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 1: packaging drugs aren't working under lab conditions. So that's hypothesis

1265
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: of what's going on there. Yeah, so that's one aspect

1266
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 1: of things. So let's talk about the greatest good for

1267
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: the largest number of people. So what I'm suggesting that

1268
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 1: people do, like what I've suggested over these years, is

1269
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 1: that people get in touch with like some group in

1270
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: their community. They connect with those people, they perhaps sour

1271
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: substances and knowledge through that. It's like, that's a lot

1272
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: of privilege, right, That's a lot of safety. There's that's

1273
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 1: not available to most people, So people who are people

1274
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: of color, people who are not connected to a community

1275
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 1: because of neurodivergence or geographic distance, So it's not possible

1276
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 1: to do what I've suggested. It's not possible to be

1277
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: safe in the same way as and I disagree with

1278
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: Michael Pollen that the psychedelics community is white. I think

1279
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: that that towards the contributions of people of color and

1280
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: indigenous people who have been part of our community all along.

1281
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 1: But I do think that if you're not connected to

1282
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: the psychedelics community, how are you possibly going to source

1283
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 1: a microw dose. So it's becoming more and more possible,

1284
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: but you have to be pretty savvy to like go

1285
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: online and order a mushrooms kit and grow your own

1286
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 1: mushrooms like that. That requires a lot of information um

1287
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 1: and a lot of expertise. And because of the car

1288
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: serial state, we would expect there to be more police

1289
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: attention on people who are already in stigmatized groups. So

1290
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: those are the people who are gonna get punished legal

1291
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 1: regulation in some capitalist encroachment might be the way to

1292
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: get this to the largest number of people. Like, let's

1293
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: imagine someone who is disabled by their depression, right, someone

1294
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 1: with serious and persistent mental illness that isn't well controlled

1295
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,960
Speaker 1: with medication, which is why they want to two micro dos.

1296
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 1: So they're not going to be able to source things

1297
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: and do things the way that we're suggesting. They may

1298
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 1: not be able to source things in any area though,

1299
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: mean exactly are that being obliged to go on the

1300
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: internet is going to be the most challenging of of

1301
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 1: the opportunities to try to find ways to deal with

1302
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: their depression exactly. So if if there was a drug

1303
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: that their their doctor could give them, that might be

1304
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: something that they're able to do. But definitely if we're

1305
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 1: talking about increased access, that would mean working within the system.

1306
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 1: Moved to one last area here, you are yourself a psychotherapist,

1307
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,959
Speaker 1: and I'm curious about to the extent you can talk

1308
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 1: openly about this, what's your own experience in psychotherapy and

1309
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 1: especially in helping people are dealing with trauma, and more broadly,

1310
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: what do you encounter in the broader psychotherapy PEWT to community,

1311
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: either in terms of stigmatization or in terms of curiosity,

1312
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 1: what's your own sense about where this is right now? So, yeah,

1313
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: I work as a psychotherapist. Right now, I work with

1314
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 1: people who are pretty pretty ill. I get a little

1315
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: bit bored by people who are too healthy. So I

1316
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: like working with people who have have complex trauma in

1317
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 1: in pretty intense environments. But I work with an integrated team,

1318
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: and I speak about you like within the larger psychotherapeutic community.

1319
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 1: So one of the most common questions that I get

1320
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: is whether or not someone who's microdocing can participate usefully

1321
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 1: in therapy, Like do they have to to micro dose

1322
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 1: and then go to therapy or can they micro dooce

1323
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: as part of therapy? Like will they be too out

1324
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 1: of it to be able to participate usefully in therapy?

1325
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 1: So just that question alone indicates to me that psychotherapists

1326
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 1: do not know what's going on. Because, of course people

1327
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 1: who are microdocing can participate usefully in therapy, right like,

1328
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 1: there's no reason to assume that they shouldn't be able to.

1329
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 1: But because there's there's not a lot of information that's

1330
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 1: out there, sometimes therapists think, oh, I should tell this

1331
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: person never micro dooce on the days that you're going

1332
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: to see me, and maybe you should just micro doce

1333
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: and see if that treats the depression and then come

1334
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: to therapy. So I'm able to reassure a therapist that no,

1335
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 1: you're able to treat people with with depression and with anxiety, whatever,

1336
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: with trauma as their micro docing, and what we see

1337
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: is an increase in positive benefits to people are able

1338
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: to use therapy to better effect. I'd recommend the work

1339
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 1: of Heather Hardgraves and Canada. I'm shed dos a neurobiofeedback

1340
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: with people, and what she sees with micro docing is

1341
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: that people's brain waves are able to adapt much more

1342
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 1: quickly as they microw dose. So that's one aspect of things.

1343
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 1: There's a lot a lot of stigma in the medical

1344
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:24,720
Speaker 1: community about psychedelics use. There's this perception that that we're

1345
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 1: just giving people permission to use drugs. So I do

1346
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 1: a lot of work with medical professionals explaining the basic

1347
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: harm reduction stuff like that people are going to do

1348
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 1: drugs no matter what, and we better use this to

1349
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 1: good effect. But I'm also curious about here is a

1350
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,799
Speaker 1: lot of attention I think is focused on macro dozing,

1351
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 1: And the question is when it comes to micro dozing,

1352
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:51,080
Speaker 1: is the micro dozing receiving even a tiny part of

1353
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 1: the attention in the world of clinical psychology or psychiatry,

1354
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 1: or is it still just a very small number of

1355
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 1: people interested in the micro dosing element of you know,

1356
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: micro docing assisted psychotherapy. So I think that psychiatrists are

1357
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 1: much more open to microw docing than macrow docing. So

1358
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,680
Speaker 1: for them it feels a lot safer, right, like the

1359
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 1: person is still going to feel connected to reality. If

1360
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 1: they want to try it, they can try it. So

1361
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: I think psychiatrists are much more open to microdocing than

1362
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:24,680
Speaker 1: macro docing. I still encounter psychiatrists who think that psychedelics

1363
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: uses psychoto mimetic that were what we're doing is mimking

1364
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 1: the psychotic state in an individual. So there's a lot

1365
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: of education that still needs to happen around that issue.

1366
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 1: I will say that like a lot of people with

1367
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 1: psychotic conditions are very interested in both micro docing and

1368
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: macro docing, and that that's a large struggle for clinicians.

1369
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say one other thing that we

1370
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: haven't brought out, which is that So I was in

1371
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 1: Fraud speaking at a psychedelics conference and I walk into

1372
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 1: this room where people are talking about it again. I

1373
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about it again. When I walked into

1374
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 1: the room, I just had heard that it's pronounced it again.

1375
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 1: So I walk in. There's all these people from Africa

1376
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: who start hugging me, and I was like, I don't

1377
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 1: get what's going on here, and they were like, your

1378
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 1: research in microducing validates our traditional practice of using it

1379
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 1: again because they and this is the whety people of

1380
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 1: gut Bone have been using it, began to treat a

1381
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: number of conditions, most importantly addiction, and they have microdocing

1382
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 1: as part of their traditional practice, so they use both

1383
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 1: macrodoses and microdoces. So when we had created the Psychedelics

1384
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 1: Ethics Code, I had all these calls with different people,

1385
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 1: and I remember this one call that I had with

1386
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: the people from the Santo Diame Church, the Ayahuasca Church,

1387
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 1: and I said something like, are there any words that

1388
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 1: anything that needs to be said here that hasn't been

1389
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:52,799
Speaker 1: said before we end the call? And they said, yeah,

1390
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: we need to bring out the voice of the Grandfather Vine.

1391
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: And I said, great, how do we do that, so

1392
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 1: then they taught saw this song. So I'm not going

1393
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 1: to teach you this song. All of these there's lots

1394
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 1: of these songs on YouTube and other places. But I

1395
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 1: think part of having psychedel excuse in a more open

1396
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 1: way means validating the voices of these traditional practices and

1397
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: people who have different exposure, different experiences than our own,

1398
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 1: and allowing those voices to come forward to learning those

1399
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,680
Speaker 1: songs and learning what that can give us. And I

1400
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 1: think that that presents a model of depression treatment or

1401
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 1: psychedelic excuse that isn't just about the substances, about the

1402
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 1: entire context of it. So, Sophia, is there anything else

1403
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: we've left out here? Sure? I want to say something

1404
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: that's really important, which is that we can't measure the

1405
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 1: amount of any given neurotransmitter in a living being's brain.

1406
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:45,559
Speaker 1: When we look at mass studies, if we're looking at

1407
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:47,640
Speaker 1: how much serotonin a mass has in its brain, we

1408
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,799
Speaker 1: kill the mass and then we autopsy the brain in slices.

1409
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 1: So when we talk about, oh, there's been this increase

1410
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,719
Speaker 1: in this chemical, this increase in that chemical, or these

1411
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 1: are the parts of the brain that light up. That's

1412
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,000
Speaker 1: one way of looking at it, but we need to

1413
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 1: validate that with people's experiences. So sure our brain lights up,

1414
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 1: and what you were talking about before is an increase

1415
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 1: in connectivity between different parts of the brain, but what

1416
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,479
Speaker 1: is the lived experience of that. So if people are saying, oh,

1417
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,559
Speaker 1: I'm more creative and we also see increased blood flow

1418
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,680
Speaker 1: between different halfs of the brain, that makes a lot

1419
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 1: of sense to me. But I don't think we should

1420
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:22,799
Speaker 1: look at it as it's just a chemical that's occurring

1421
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 1: in the brain, Okay, Sevilla. I mean, I really enjoyed

1422
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: our conversation, So thank you so much for having this

1423
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 1: conversation with me on Psychoactive, and best of luck with

1424
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 1: your future research as well as with your future you know,

1425
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 1: therapy effort involving or not involving these substances. Thank you

1426
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah. I've worked in harm reduction in New

1427
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 1: York City in San Francisco for a long time and

1428
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,680
Speaker 1: I've really respected the work of Drug Policy Alliance, so

1429
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,720
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to be here. Yeah. Oh fantastic. Well,

1430
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 1: thanks so much. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your

1431
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:58,439
Speaker 1: friends about it, or you can write us a review

1432
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 1: at Apple Podcast or where you get your podcasts. We

1433
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 1: love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to

1434
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 1: share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us

1435
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 1: a message at one eight three three seven seven nine

1436
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 1: sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you can

1437
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:21,040
Speaker 1: email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find

1438
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You can also find

1439
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 1: contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production

1440
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by

1441
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noham Osband and Josh Stain.

1442
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus

1443
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:44,679
Speaker 1: and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt

1444
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:48,200
Speaker 1: Frederick from my Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our

1445
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 1: music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to

1446
01:13:52,040 --> 01:14:06,120
Speaker 1: ab brios f, Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next week

1447
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:09,640
Speaker 1: we'll have a special episode of Psychoactive. It's when I

1448
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:13,520
Speaker 1: invite my dear friend Julie Holland to co host Psychoactive

1449
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 1: and answer questions with me from you the listeners for

1450
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:21,600
Speaker 1: nine years, every Saturday night and Sunday night, I was

1451
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 1: the doctor in charge of the psychiatric emergency room at

1452
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 1: Bellevue Hospital. And I was in charge of it like

1453
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:29,960
Speaker 1: a fifteen to sixteen hour overnight shift. And far and

1454
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 1: away the substances that reaked the most havoc and in

1455
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:37,320
Speaker 1: the psychiatric patients that I saw in Bellevue number one alcohol,

1456
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 1: no question, and number two cocaine. Subscribe to Psychoactive now

1457
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:42,760
Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it.