WEBVTT - Eat it Safely 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:06.440 Welcome everyone to this edition of Amy and TJ, and 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.760 we have another special episode. We'll explain why it's special 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:13.200 in just a moment, but we have been asking what 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:17.160 is going on with all of these recalls. If you've 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.560 been paying attention to the news, or even paying attention 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:23.480 to Morning Run, you will know that this fall, it 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:27.360 feels like once a week at least, there's another headline 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.200 out there that are there's another recall, and it makes me. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:33.400 I don't know if it makes you, but I feel 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:35.559 like it probably makes a lot of us feel like 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:40.400 the food supply has become less safe these days. First, 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:42.959 over the summer, we had the boar's head Deli meat. 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.000 That's the first one I remember reporting on at least 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.199 I know there were several before, but that one had 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:53.559 ten fatalities. The outbreak second, sixty one people in nineteen states. 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:57.840 Yes, I love boys at the salami. You love that salam. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:02.520 That salami is the genuash, the best was the last 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.360 piece you had. It's been a while. Yeah, I'm not 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:08.160 gonna lie. Yeah, listeria is scary. And then in September 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.240 there was an egg recall. Sixty five people and nine 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.360 states were sickened twenty four had to be hospitalized. That 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:19.959 was salmonella. Then in October, Oh, we remember this headline McDonald's. 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.760 It was the slivered onions in the McDonald's quarter pounders. 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.679 One hundred and four patients across fourteen states became ill, 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:32.600 thirty four hospitalizations, one death. We reported on that at nauseum. 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:38.119 Are we missing a food born where listeria, salmonella, and colil? 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:40.480 Have we got this help? We hit them all yet? 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:42.640 Yeah? I think those are the three big ones. And 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.080 then we'll just stay on the E. Coli train because 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.400 just a few weeks after the McDonald's outbreak was organic carrots. 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:53.760 Thirty eight people were sickened, fifteen hospitalizations and one death, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.640 and this was all across eighteen states. Then we got 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.360 the ground beef in November and it was the same 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.200 ecoal I remember that as the one of McDonald's, but 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.960 it sickened nineteen people in Minnesota. Four people were hospitalized. 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.160 And my goodness, this week we talked about cucumbers and eggs. 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.160 This was salmonella as well. The cucumbers have sickened sixty 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:14.720 eight people in nineteen states. 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:16.760 What was it in the I forgot what was it 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:21.959 in the cucumbers again, it would that was equal our salmonola. 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:27.040 Salmanolaep it all straight. And then the eggs. There haven't 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.120 been any reports of sicknesses, but ten thousand cartons of 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:34.919 Kirkland brand eggs were recalled from Costco. So I'm exhausted. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:37.360 Did we throw those cucumbers out? 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:39.600 No? We ate them. And I kind of freaked out. 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:40.720 But so far, so good. 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.079 I wonder if that's a bad move. I think it's 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:45.679 in our nature. Right. As soon as you hear there's 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:48.359 a recall of anything, I don't go to the FDA 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.000 or USDA website. I go to my refrigerator and I'll 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.120 throw out whatever the thing they said. I don't check. 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.560 Yeah, I do the same thing. And we didn't. We 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.520 finally ate McDonald's actually right before Thanksgiving, but it had 0:02:58.520 --> 0:02:58.919 been a while. 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:04.040 Yeah. Then I got, oh, oh my gosh, way wait, wait. 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:06.880 You wait a McRib? They haven't recalled What is that 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:07.840 meat in a McRib? 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:12.000 There is not meat, it's just the molded thing that 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.200 looks like a slab, is it. I don't actually don't know. 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:17.160 We have an expert here, we can ask him in 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:21.280 a second. But here, so I just listed all these headlines, 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.760 and it has felt overwhelming. But the two federal agencies 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.040 that are responsible primarily for the safety of our food supply, 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:33.000 they have They've cataloged more than twenty five recalls since 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.520 November one alone, many of them linked to salmonella and E. 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.160 Coli bought. With all of that, they say, we're close 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.080 to the same levels as we were last year in 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:44.720 twenty twenty three. So they say there isn't an uptick 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.640 from year to year. But I did. I was reading 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.280 an article in the Washington Post, and there is a 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.400 lawyer who has made a living since the early nineties 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.400 representing plaintiffs in food born illness cases. 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.120 You have his number because I hate a macrib that 0:03:59.200 --> 0:03:59.840 might have been bad. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.720 I can get that for you. I'm going to quote 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.720 him here. He says, I've been doing this kind of 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.120 work for thirty one years, and the last four to 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:12.200 five months have been exhausting, I mean, also probably lucrative. 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:14.840 Yeah, I mean, do we want to use that as 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.000 anecdotal evidence that our whole food supply is now tainted? 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.320 I think it just shows that we're hearing a lot 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.360 more about them and a lot more people. As far 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.520 as we've been aware, of have been affected or impact. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:28.600 So that's the question. Are we hearing more about it? 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.360 Are we reporting more about it? Are because the outbreak 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.960 was at McDonald's that makes a headline definitely, right? And 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.080 maybe that is the case. But I have seen a 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.600 lot of places that it's not some huge surge or 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.480 uptick with just getting a little more coverage. I'm curious 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.800 if there's more of a cluster right now. I don't 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:47.479 know if that's the case. 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.360 Yeah, and we're not just asking these questions in a vacuum. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.880 We actually have an expert in the studio to explain 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.760 what is happening, why it's happening, and what you can 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:02.560 do with anything to protect yourself. His name is Mike Roboch, 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.840 my father. He is a microbiologist. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.040 It isn't like a superhero. 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:13.039 I know. His name is Mike, and dad were You've 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.520 been in charge of food safety for a couple of 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:19.680 different corporations, but most recently and you are retired, but 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.120 you most recently were what was your title exactly? 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:26.760 Hi was vice president Food Safety, Quality and Regulatory Affairs. 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.600 Very nice. See so he knows what he's talking about. 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.240 We put this in. Look, your dad has spent an 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.960 entire life traveling around the world keeping food safe. Period. 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.440 That is what he does. That is his job, has 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.360 been his job, and so I have to resist their 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.919 urge Baba roback almost like at least two times a 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.360 day to not text you and say, hey, should I 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.600 throw these eggs? Out right? I have all these questions, 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.359 but we all have them, and now with these recalls, 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:56.359 so I'm trying to put your dad's resume and his 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:00.600 credentials in proper context. This dude has spent a little life, yes, 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:05.880 doing nothing but studying the safety of food and producing 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:10.000 and coming up with ways to keep the food supply safe. 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:11.480 This dude knows the stuff. 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.640 He's worked for some of the biggest names in the 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:19.200 industry that you've eaten their products from meat, et cetera. 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.680 So he knows his stuff. And I remember Dad even 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.480 being on vacations with you over the years where you 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.000 are on the phone trying to get a signal because 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.240 you are dealing with another recall, like you were the 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:36.440 person who was dealing with recalls for decades. So what 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:38.800 is going on? Is anything different going on? 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.000 I don't know that there's anything different going on in 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:48.880 terms of the number of recalls what has happened over 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:53.479 the last few years as technology has improved so that 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:58.720 we are able to identify certain strains of bacteria definitively, 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:05.960 and the epidemiology, the investigations that public health authorities do 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:12.080 and that the CDC does around multi state outbreaks, those 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:17.480 techniques have gotten much better, and there's better coordination between 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:22.120 public health authorities and the CDC. So in the past, 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:27.640 you used to have maybe twenty five or thirty illnesses 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:34.880 a cur before a cluster was identified. Now if you 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.840 have two or three people becoming ill, that can then 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:44.480 with the investigative techniques and the technology available, can be 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:49.680 linked to a certain strain of bacteria, whether it's Salmonella, Listeria, 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:56.760 shegatoxin producing E. Coli, or camplebacter and it then epidemiologically 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.000 can be linked to a food to a common source. 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:05.360 So the investigative techniques have gotten better, reporting has gotten 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:11.240 much better, and there's more awareness around the safety of 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.320 our food than there ever has been before. 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.960 Those was the coolest thing was we had this conversation 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.960 like two three weeks ago down and You'll kitchen all 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.520 right in Atlanta, and I was saying, well, what in 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.720 the world's going on with the food. He's like, rest easy, 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.880 young man. This is proof that the system is working. 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.880 So it sounds like, are you say we can catch 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.000 it in two or three people, which can now keep 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.240 the twenty five from maybe getting sick. Right, So, even 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.800 though we might see recall recall, is it possible that 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.800 fewer people are getting sick because we are catching these 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.080 things so often and so quickly. 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.440 Well, I don't know if fewer people are getting sick. 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.839 I think what we're doing is we're preventing the spread 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:57.400 of some of these incidents. In other words, it used 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.840 to be thirty five, forty five, even six days before 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.440 you'd identify a problem, So you had that much product 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:10.000 out in the marketplace making people sick. So you know, 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.120 now I think we are able to limit the spread 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.920 and hopefully that is causing less illness. But that's a 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:22.200 very difficult thing to measure because everybody doesn't pick up 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.680 the phone and call their local public health authority, you know, 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.880 when they have what we used to call the stomach flu, 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:30.840 which you know, we know is you know, could be 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:36.120 a gastro intestinal illness associated with food. Most people don't 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:40.360 do that. I think the CDC feels for every case 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:45.239 that's reported, there's something like fifteen or twenty that go unreported. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.760 Wow, so it's like fifteen to twenty times the numbers 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.600 were actually hearing other people who were actually impacted. And 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.240 to your point, I would never who do you call? 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.920 How do I call the FDA and say, hey, I 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.360 just aid a McDonald's and I'm not feeling so well. 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:01.880 Nobody's going to do that? 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:03.920 Your thing to do that, and I won't even know 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.120 how to do it. So who are these people figuring 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:06.440 it out? 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.880 Some of these illnesses are are reportable. So if you 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:24.800 show up in an emergency room and they identify uh salmonella, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.560 you know they culture salmonella from a sample that that 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:33.800 you've given, that will be reported okay, and so that 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.760 then can initiate UH an investigation. 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:41.240 But salmonela generally speaking, most of us A, most healthy 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.320 adults have salmonella. Will it feel like it's just going 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.000 to cycle through? Would you get sick enough a normal human? No, 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:53.160 normal healthy I should say person. Would you get sick 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.160 enough that you would go seek medical treatment? Or you 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:56.800 just feel bad and take a couple of days off? 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.880 And well that's a It depends on the strain of salmon. 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:04.040 There are hundreds of strains of salmonella, and I know 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:05.079 it's confusing. 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.200 No, when I can do everything I ask you about it, 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.120 you say, well, there are strains like, oh boy, here 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:09.400 we go. 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.480 There are some strains like salmonella Kentucky for example. It's 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:21.440 very common Salmonella Kentucky, and it is very common, but 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:26.640 it's unlikely to cause human illness. Now there are others 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.800 like salmonella and orititus, salmonella typhomerium. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:31.920 They are more. 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.040 Pathogenic to humans. And so even a small dose so 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:40.600 that salmonella could make someone ill ill enough that they 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:44.120 would be debilitated. They would have to stay home. They 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.520 may even go to the emergency room because they can 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.559 have a fever, they can have diarrhea. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:50.680 You know, there's cramping. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.280 You can get cramping, you become dehydrated. I mean, so, yeah, 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:55.360 it's serious. 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.120 I say this because I likes in a lot of 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.720 these cases. It's that serious, right exactly. 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:05.720 And you know your brother's salmonella incident happened in the laboratory. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.880 He was working at a US Department of Agriculture lab 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:14.280 when a graduate student, he was teaching them how to 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:20.319 identify colonies and accidentally had a plate full of salmonella 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.200 shoved into his face, and so he was able to 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.160 go to the emergency room and actually self identify the 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.560 salmonella strain was making him sick. 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.360 Wow, that's the way to get exactly the right antibiotic 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.400 that you need. How does this happen? How do these 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.840 types of bacteria get into the food supply? 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.199 Well? A variety of ways, and it depends what food 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.320 product you're talking about. You know, we've talked a lot 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:52.640 about produce related recalls, and you know, salmonella is not 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:58.920 something that normally grows out in fields. It can be 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.880 present in field, but it usually has to come from 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.079 the gastrointestinal track of a warm blooded animal. I mean, 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:10.680 that's really the reservoir for salmonella. So you can have 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:15.439 workers in a field that don't have appropriate hygiene and 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:20.200 they can be contaminating produce as it's being picked, as 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.680 it's being harvested, as it's being packed. The other way 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:29.319 that you see it is and this is salmonella or E. Coli, 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.839 both very similar organisms from they're both from the GI tract. 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.280 They can be found in water and if you're using 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:43.160 irrigation water that's not properly treated, you can be spreading 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:47.319 that salmonella or E. Coli contamination onto the produce as 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:48.240 it's actually growing. 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.760 You used to say to me, fecal to oral. That 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.080 always schews me out. But that's one way to put it. 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:56.439 Right, It's one way to put it. 0:13:58.280 --> 0:13:59.960 Sorry, I was just sharing some family fun. 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:05.520 Wow, listeria, your brother eats salmonilla off a plate and yeah, 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.120 ekals oral fun family dinners around there, right, I. 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:10.960 Mean it was it was not a food plate. 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:12.360 Let me be clear. 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.959 It was a laboratory and it was a it was 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.080 a petri dish that that had a selective augur on 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.720 it so that the salmonilla cells showed up looking a 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:22.280 certain way. 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.920 What about listeria? How does that happen? 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.040 Westeria is more of an environmental contaminant. It's found it's 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:34.280 ubiquitous in nature. It's found in soil, it's found in 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:38.400 the air, and it becomes an environmental contaminant because it 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:43.000 can get into a plant, into a food processing facility, 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:49.960 and it loves cold, wet environments, and it actually forms 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:54.840 a biofilm to protect itself, so once it colonizes, it 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.680 can colonize a piece of equipment. It could colonize a floor, 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.840 sounds like an alien. It can colonize drains, forming a 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:07.880 biofilm which then protects it from any disinfectants or what 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.440 any sanitation devices. So you have to be very diligent 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.120 in the way that you approach that, so that you're 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.520 not just spraying bleach on things. You're actually washing them. 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.880 So you get a detergent to break up the biofilm, 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:22.680 then you can kill the organism. 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.360 Okay, I was a mad Listeria was the foreshead, right, 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.320 And we've talked about the plant. It's been in news 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.960 a lot. How does that happen? How does listeria end 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.640 up taking over a plant like that and getting into 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.640 the food supply, the meat supply of Yeah. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:43.080 It's a it's a pretty straightforward process. I mean somebody 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.800 brings the listeria into the facility. I mean it can 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.440 be brought in on shoes, can be brought in on clothing. 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.520 You probably have some listeria cells on us right now. 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.200 And you know, in and of itself, it's it's a 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:02.040 normal organism. But what happens is you bring it into 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.320 a plant and it finds a niche, it gets into 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.760 a drain, it gets into the corner between the wall 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.440 and the floor, It can get into a grout or 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.480 anything that might be available for it to stick to, 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.560 and it can grow. So if you don't have really 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:26.680 diligent cleaning and sanitation programs and you're not actively monitoring 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:31.920 the environment in your facility, you can get colonization and 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.120 you don't realize that you have a problem because everything 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:41.680 looks clean. But microscopically, you've got these bacteria that are 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.360 lurking around, and if they get on a conveyor belt, 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:49.080 they get on a slide that products going over, they 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:54.320 will transfer onto that product and end up. Slicers are 0:16:54.400 --> 0:17:01.720 notoriously difficult to clean, both in plants, facilities and also 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.960 in retail delis. Wow, the slicer is a very common 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:11.960 vehicle to spread bacterial contamination in retail delis. 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.959 That is so scary. And you have never been an 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.199 alarmist ever when I've asked you can I eat this? 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.520 Can I eat that? You always You're actually less of 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.000 an alarmists than I would think. But I remember when 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:28.880 I was pregnant, you were adamant do not eat deli meat, 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:30.840 and all I wanted was a subway sandwich. I mean 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.919 the entire time, That's all I wanted. But that you 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.399 were adamant is I'm curious and you might not be. 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:39.200 It might be based on the strain. But if you 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.960 compared E Coli to salmonella to listeria, is one significantly 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:44.280 more deadly than the other? 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:51.159 Well, Listeria monocytogenes has a higher mortality rate, you know, 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:57.480 per thousand illnesses. However, we talked about the different strains 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:02.840 of salmonella, and they vary greatly in terms of their pathogenicity, 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.720 so you know how they can make you ill. When 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.520 we talk about E. Coli. Everybody talks about E. Coli 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.840 very generically, but what we in food safety talk about 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.800 specifically are shigotoxin producing E coli. And these are the 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.440 ones you hear about OH one five seven or OH 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:27.040 one two four. These are markers or identifying characteristics of 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:31.880 these organisms, and they produce a shigotoxin, a very powerful toxin. 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:37.159 And OH one five seven, which was implicated early on 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:44.080 in the early nineties in the famous Hamburger recalls that 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:49.640 made headlines. And you mentioned an attorney who started out 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:51.960 in that area. I know Bill Marler. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.119 Oh, that's exactly who it is. That's so funny. 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.879 I know Bill very well, and yeah, he's made a 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:04.119 career out of hawking this and working with victims of 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:05.760 food born illness. 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:06.680 So he's not really exhausted. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.960 I'm kidding, Yeah, I think, well, you know Bill. Bill's 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.639 line was, please put me out of work, you know, 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.560 and so you know it was it always had some 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.200 good conversations about what we were doing to to improve 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.240 food safety. But these one five seven E Coli O 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:30.160 one five seven H seven was the organism that caused 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:35.320 those outbreaks, and they are very pathogenic. So as small 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.760 as one cell and a vulnerable individual can you know, 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.639 cause serious illness. And what most people end up dying 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:48.280 from from oh one five seven is kidney failure because 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:52.520 the organism will colonize the kidney and basically break it down. 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.840 The reason that I didn't want you eating Deli meats 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:02.720 when you were pregnant is because Listerium monopsytogenies is notorious 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:08.720 for causing spontaneous abortion. So you become infected, and if 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:13.679 you're pregnant, you're very vulnerable because your immune system is suppressed, 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.399 and that organism can induce a spontaneous abortion. 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:21.240 Okay, it's you all, forgive me. I'm a little behind here. 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.280 But is this not something that women when they go 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.400 in to talk to their doctum when they are pregnant, 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:31.320 that is talked about with women? Deli meat, it wasn't. 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:33.520 I think they say try don't eat deli meat, don't 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.359 eat sushi because of mercury levels. But for me, it wasn't. 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:40.640 I wasn't told it. If you eat this, you are 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.359 putting your fetus at risk. No, it was not said 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.560 in those very specific terms. So when Dad said it 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:47.480 to me, I was a little shocked. I mean he 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.120 was like, absolutely no. 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.080 Like you said, no, you're not alarmist, But to hear 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.000 a microbiologist, somebody you care about that much he's pregnant, 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.720 you said, no, don't do this, that's a strong. 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.320 It's a it's a reasonable precaution to take, because you know, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.320 you're talking about deli meats, you're talking about soft ripened cheeses. 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:21.520 You know these are typical vehicles for Lasteria monocytogenies. And 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.840 now I got to say that the industry, the meat 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.080 processing industry, has gotten a heck of a lot better. 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:34.280 I mean, the boris head incident was one that we 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:36.800 hadn't really heard about in a while. I mean, it 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:41.080 hadn't been implicated Deli meats had not been implicated in 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.560 lasteria outbreaks like this for a for a while. I 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.400 remember in my career back in the in the nineties, 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:54.639 we worked long and hard to improve our sanitation systems, 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.880 our cleaning systems, and our monitor our microbiological monitoring systems 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:03.120 so we could identify if we were getting a listeria 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.439 problem growing in a plant. So it was job number 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.160 one and are ready to eat plant is to make 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.720 sure that you're keeping listeria out of that environment. 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.560 Wow, catching the outbreaks is one thing, and it seems 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.879 like we're doing as a government or as a country better. 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.359 But how can the industry do better at preventing the outports? 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.040 I mean, what have you seen happen and is that 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.360 something that still needs improvement or are they doing as 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:33.040 good as good of a job as they can? 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:35.239 Well, I think you can always do better, you know, 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.920 And at the end of the day, it comes down 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.520 to the human beings and the plant implementing the programs 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.400 and the processes that have been developed. So the industry 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:51.560 has spent a lot of time working collaboratively around ways 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:59.160 to improve cleaning and sanitation and what we call operational sanitation, 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:02.119 so that is wild the plant is running, you're keeping 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:05.520 things clean, you're keeping things as dry as you can, 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:10.200 You're keeping them moving along in a sanitary manner. Equipment 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:13.040 has gotten a lot better, so it's easier to keep 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:17.720 cleaned once it's been clean and sanitized, and that work continues, 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:24.760 constantly continues. You know, we've looked at different techniques you know, 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.239 that you can use while the plant's in operation to 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:33.639 assure that you're keeping any loads down to a reasonable level. Now, 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:37.320 as long as you're working with fresh product, it's not 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.919 going to be sterile. So there's always going to be 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:44.199 bacteria present because they're present naturally and are ready to 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.840 eat plant. We've done a much better job in designing 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:52.400 the facility so that you separate raw from cooked and 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.879 you don't have crossover of personnel, you don't have crossover 0:23:55.960 --> 0:24:00.800 of equipment. You don't have you have airflow that's positive 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.520 air in the in the finished product area, in the 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:06.520 ready to eat area, once it's been cooked, you have 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:09.480 positive air, so air is being pushed out. You don't 0:24:09.480 --> 0:24:12.960 have air coming in from the outside or from the 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:14.679 raw area. 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.240 You know, it's sounding like from it sounds like from you. 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:21.960 Everybody else all this coverage and everything, everybody's going crazy, 0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:23.919 all these recalls. But from you, a guy who's been 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:27.239 in the industry your whole career, sounds like you're not 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:31.040