1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to this edition of Amy and TJ, and 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: we have another special episode. We'll explain why it's special 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: in just a moment, but we have been asking what 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: is going on with all of these recalls. If you've 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: been paying attention to the news, or even paying attention 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: to Morning Run, you will know that this fall, it 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: feels like once a week at least, there's another headline 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: out there that are there's another recall, and it makes me. 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if it makes you, but I feel 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: like it probably makes a lot of us feel like 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: the food supply has become less safe these days. First, 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,959 Speaker 1: over the summer, we had the boar's head Deli meat. 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: That's the first one I remember reporting on at least 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: I know there were several before, but that one had 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: ten fatalities. The outbreak second, sixty one people in nineteen states. 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: Yes, I love boys at the salami. You love that salam. 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: That salami is the genuash, the best was the last 18 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: piece you had. It's been a while. Yeah, I'm not 19 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: gonna lie. Yeah, listeria is scary. And then in September 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: there was an egg recall. Sixty five people and nine 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: states were sickened twenty four had to be hospitalized. That 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: was salmonella. Then in October, Oh, we remember this headline McDonald's. 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: It was the slivered onions in the McDonald's quarter pounders. 24 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: One hundred and four patients across fourteen states became ill, 25 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: thirty four hospitalizations, one death. We reported on that at nauseum. 26 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 2: Are we missing a food born where listeria, salmonella, and colil? 27 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: Have we got this help? We hit them all yet? 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think those are the three big ones. And 29 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: then we'll just stay on the E. Coli train because 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: just a few weeks after the McDonald's outbreak was organic carrots. 31 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: Thirty eight people were sickened, fifteen hospitalizations and one death, 32 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: and this was all across eighteen states. Then we got 33 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: the ground beef in November and it was the same 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: ecoal I remember that as the one of McDonald's, but 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: it sickened nineteen people in Minnesota. Four people were hospitalized. 36 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: And my goodness, this week we talked about cucumbers and eggs. 37 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: This was salmonella as well. The cucumbers have sickened sixty 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: eight people in nineteen states. 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: What was it in the I forgot what was it 40 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 2: in the cucumbers again, it would that was equal our salmonola. 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: Salmanolaep it all straight. And then the eggs. There haven't 42 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: been any reports of sicknesses, but ten thousand cartons of 43 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: Kirkland brand eggs were recalled from Costco. So I'm exhausted. 44 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 2: Did we throw those cucumbers out? 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: No? We ate them. And I kind of freaked out. 46 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: But so far, so good. 47 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 2: I wonder if that's a bad move. I think it's 48 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 2: in our nature. Right. As soon as you hear there's 49 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: a recall of anything, I don't go to the FDA 50 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: or USDA website. I go to my refrigerator and I'll 51 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: throw out whatever the thing they said. I don't check. 52 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do the same thing. And we didn't. We 53 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: finally ate McDonald's actually right before Thanksgiving, but it had 54 00:02:58,520 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: been a while. 55 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Then I got, oh, oh my gosh, way wait, wait. 56 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: You wait a McRib? They haven't recalled What is that 57 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: meat in a McRib? 58 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: There is not meat, it's just the molded thing that 59 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 2: looks like a slab, is it. I don't actually don't know. 60 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: We have an expert here, we can ask him in 61 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: a second. But here, so I just listed all these headlines, 62 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: and it has felt overwhelming. But the two federal agencies 63 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: that are responsible primarily for the safety of our food supply, 64 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: they have They've cataloged more than twenty five recalls since 65 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: November one alone, many of them linked to salmonella and E. 66 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: Coli bought. With all of that, they say, we're close 67 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: to the same levels as we were last year in 68 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. So they say there isn't an uptick 69 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: from year to year. But I did. I was reading 70 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: an article in the Washington Post, and there is a 71 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: lawyer who has made a living since the early nineties 72 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: representing plaintiffs in food born illness cases. 73 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: You have his number because I hate a macrib that 74 00:03:59,200 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: might have been bad. 75 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: I can get that for you. I'm going to quote 76 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: him here. He says, I've been doing this kind of 77 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: work for thirty one years, and the last four to 78 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: five months have been exhausting, I mean, also probably lucrative. 79 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, do we want to use that as 80 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: anecdotal evidence that our whole food supply is now tainted? 81 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: I think it just shows that we're hearing a lot 82 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: more about them and a lot more people. As far 83 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: as we've been aware, of have been affected or impact. 84 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 2: So that's the question. Are we hearing more about it? 85 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: Are we reporting more about it? Are because the outbreak 86 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: was at McDonald's that makes a headline definitely, right? And 87 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: maybe that is the case. But I have seen a 88 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 2: lot of places that it's not some huge surge or 89 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 2: uptick with just getting a little more coverage. I'm curious 90 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: if there's more of a cluster right now. I don't 91 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 2: know if that's the case. 92 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're not just asking these questions in a vacuum. 93 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: We actually have an expert in the studio to explain 94 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: what is happening, why it's happening, and what you can 95 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: do with anything to protect yourself. His name is Mike Roboch, 96 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: my father. He is a microbiologist. 97 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: It isn't like a superhero. 98 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: I know. His name is Mike, and dad were You've 99 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: been in charge of food safety for a couple of 100 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: different corporations, but most recently and you are retired, but 101 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: you most recently were what was your title exactly? 102 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: Hi was vice president Food Safety, Quality and Regulatory Affairs. 103 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: Very nice. See so he knows what he's talking about. 104 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: We put this in. Look, your dad has spent an 105 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: entire life traveling around the world keeping food safe. Period. 106 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: That is what he does. That is his job, has 107 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: been his job, and so I have to resist their 108 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 2: urge Baba roback almost like at least two times a 109 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 2: day to not text you and say, hey, should I 110 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 2: throw these eggs? Out right? I have all these questions, 111 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 2: but we all have them, and now with these recalls, 112 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 2: so I'm trying to put your dad's resume and his 113 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 2: credentials in proper context. This dude has spent a little life, yes, 114 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: doing nothing but studying the safety of food and producing 115 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: and coming up with ways to keep the food supply safe. 116 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 2: This dude knows the stuff. 117 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: He's worked for some of the biggest names in the 118 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: industry that you've eaten their products from meat, et cetera. 119 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: So he knows his stuff. And I remember Dad even 120 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: being on vacations with you over the years where you 121 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: are on the phone trying to get a signal because 122 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: you are dealing with another recall, like you were the 123 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: person who was dealing with recalls for decades. So what 124 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: is going on? Is anything different going on? 125 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 3: I don't know that there's anything different going on in 126 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 3: terms of the number of recalls what has happened over 127 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 3: the last few years as technology has improved so that 128 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 3: we are able to identify certain strains of bacteria definitively, 129 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 3: and the epidemiology, the investigations that public health authorities do 130 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 3: and that the CDC does around multi state outbreaks, those 131 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 3: techniques have gotten much better, and there's better coordination between 132 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 3: public health authorities and the CDC. So in the past, 133 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: you used to have maybe twenty five or thirty illnesses 134 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 3: a cur before a cluster was identified. Now if you 135 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 3: have two or three people becoming ill, that can then 136 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 3: with the investigative techniques and the technology available, can be 137 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: linked to a certain strain of bacteria, whether it's Salmonella, Listeria, 138 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: shegatoxin producing E. Coli, or camplebacter and it then epidemiologically 139 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: can be linked to a food to a common source. 140 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 3: So the investigative techniques have gotten better, reporting has gotten 141 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 3: much better, and there's more awareness around the safety of 142 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: our food than there ever has been before. 143 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: Those was the coolest thing was we had this conversation 144 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: like two three weeks ago down and You'll kitchen all 145 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: right in Atlanta, and I was saying, well, what in 146 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: the world's going on with the food. He's like, rest easy, 147 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: young man. This is proof that the system is working. 148 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: So it sounds like, are you say we can catch 149 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: it in two or three people, which can now keep 150 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: the twenty five from maybe getting sick. Right, So, even 151 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: though we might see recall recall, is it possible that 152 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: fewer people are getting sick because we are catching these 153 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: things so often and so quickly. 154 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know if fewer people are getting sick. 155 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 3: I think what we're doing is we're preventing the spread 156 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 3: of some of these incidents. In other words, it used 157 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 3: to be thirty five, forty five, even six days before 158 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 3: you'd identify a problem, So you had that much product 159 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: out in the marketplace making people sick. So you know, 160 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: now I think we are able to limit the spread 161 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: and hopefully that is causing less illness. But that's a 162 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 3: very difficult thing to measure because everybody doesn't pick up 163 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 3: the phone and call their local public health authority, you know, 164 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 3: when they have what we used to call the stomach flu, 165 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 3: which you know, we know is you know, could be 166 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 3: a gastro intestinal illness associated with food. Most people don't 167 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 3: do that. I think the CDC feels for every case 168 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,239 Speaker 3: that's reported, there's something like fifteen or twenty that go unreported. 169 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: Wow, so it's like fifteen to twenty times the numbers 170 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: were actually hearing other people who were actually impacted. And 171 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: to your point, I would never who do you call? 172 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: How do I call the FDA and say, hey, I 173 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: just aid a McDonald's and I'm not feeling so well. 174 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: Nobody's going to do that? 175 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: Your thing to do that, and I won't even know 176 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: how to do it. So who are these people figuring 177 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: it out? 178 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: Some of these illnesses are are reportable. So if you 179 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 3: show up in an emergency room and they identify uh salmonella, 180 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 3: you know they culture salmonella from a sample that that 181 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: you've given, that will be reported okay, and so that 182 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 3: then can initiate UH an investigation. 183 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 2: But salmonela generally speaking, most of us A, most healthy 184 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: adults have salmonella. Will it feel like it's just going 185 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: to cycle through? Would you get sick enough a normal human? No, 186 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: normal healthy I should say person. Would you get sick 187 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: enough that you would go seek medical treatment? Or you 188 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: just feel bad and take a couple of days off? 189 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 3: And well that's a It depends on the strain of salmon. 190 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 3: There are hundreds of strains of salmonella, and I know 191 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 3: it's confusing. 192 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 2: No, when I can do everything I ask you about it, 193 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: you say, well, there are strains like, oh boy, here 194 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: we go. 195 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: There are some strains like salmonella Kentucky for example. It's 196 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 3: very common Salmonella Kentucky, and it is very common, but 197 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: it's unlikely to cause human illness. Now there are others 198 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 3: like salmonella and orititus, salmonella typhomerium. 199 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: They are more. 200 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: Pathogenic to humans. And so even a small dose so 201 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 3: that salmonella could make someone ill ill enough that they 202 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 3: would be debilitated. They would have to stay home. They 203 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 3: may even go to the emergency room because they can 204 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 3: have a fever, they can have diarrhea. 205 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: You know, there's cramping. 206 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 3: You can get cramping, you become dehydrated. I mean, so, yeah, 207 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 3: it's serious. 208 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: I say this because I likes in a lot of 209 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: these cases. It's that serious, right exactly. 210 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: And you know your brother's salmonella incident happened in the laboratory. 211 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 3: He was working at a US Department of Agriculture lab 212 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 3: when a graduate student, he was teaching them how to 213 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 3: identify colonies and accidentally had a plate full of salmonella 214 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 3: shoved into his face, and so he was able to 215 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 3: go to the emergency room and actually self identify the 216 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 3: salmonella strain was making him sick. 217 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: Wow, that's the way to get exactly the right antibiotic 218 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: that you need. How does this happen? How do these 219 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: types of bacteria get into the food supply? 220 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 3: Well? A variety of ways, and it depends what food 221 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 3: product you're talking about. You know, we've talked a lot 222 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 3: about produce related recalls, and you know, salmonella is not 223 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 3: something that normally grows out in fields. It can be 224 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 3: present in field, but it usually has to come from 225 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 3: the gastrointestinal track of a warm blooded animal. I mean, 226 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 3: that's really the reservoir for salmonella. So you can have 227 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 3: workers in a field that don't have appropriate hygiene and 228 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 3: they can be contaminating produce as it's being picked, as 229 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 3: it's being harvested, as it's being packed. The other way 230 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 3: that you see it is and this is salmonella or E. Coli, 231 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 3: both very similar organisms from they're both from the GI tract. 232 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 3: They can be found in water and if you're using 233 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 3: irrigation water that's not properly treated, you can be spreading 234 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 3: that salmonella or E. Coli contamination onto the produce as 235 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: it's actually growing. 236 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: You used to say to me, fecal to oral. That 237 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: always schews me out. But that's one way to put it. 238 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 3: Right, It's one way to put it. 239 00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: Sorry, I was just sharing some family fun. 240 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 2: Wow, listeria, your brother eats salmonilla off a plate and yeah, 241 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: ekals oral fun family dinners around there, right, I. 242 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: Mean it was it was not a food plate. 243 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: Let me be clear. 244 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 3: It was a laboratory and it was a it was 245 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 3: a petri dish that that had a selective augur on 246 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: it so that the salmonilla cells showed up looking a 247 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: certain way. 248 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: What about listeria? How does that happen? 249 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: Westeria is more of an environmental contaminant. It's found it's 250 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: ubiquitous in nature. It's found in soil, it's found in 251 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: the air, and it becomes an environmental contaminant because it 252 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 3: can get into a plant, into a food processing facility, 253 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: and it loves cold, wet environments, and it actually forms 254 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 3: a biofilm to protect itself, so once it colonizes, it 255 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 3: can colonize a piece of equipment. It could colonize a floor, 256 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 3: sounds like an alien. It can colonize drains, forming a 257 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: biofilm which then protects it from any disinfectants or what 258 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 3: any sanitation devices. So you have to be very diligent 259 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 3: in the way that you approach that, so that you're 260 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 3: not just spraying bleach on things. You're actually washing them. 261 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: So you get a detergent to break up the biofilm, 262 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: then you can kill the organism. 263 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: Okay, I was a mad Listeria was the foreshead, right, 264 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: And we've talked about the plant. It's been in news 265 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: a lot. How does that happen? How does listeria end 266 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: up taking over a plant like that and getting into 267 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: the food supply, the meat supply of Yeah. 268 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: It's a it's a pretty straightforward process. I mean somebody 269 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 3: brings the listeria into the facility. I mean it can 270 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 3: be brought in on shoes, can be brought in on clothing. 271 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: You probably have some listeria cells on us right now. 272 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 3: And you know, in and of itself, it's it's a 273 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 3: normal organism. But what happens is you bring it into 274 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 3: a plant and it finds a niche, it gets into 275 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 3: a drain, it gets into the corner between the wall 276 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 3: and the floor, It can get into a grout or 277 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: anything that might be available for it to stick to, 278 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 3: and it can grow. So if you don't have really 279 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 3: diligent cleaning and sanitation programs and you're not actively monitoring 280 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: the environment in your facility, you can get colonization and 281 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 3: you don't realize that you have a problem because everything 282 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: looks clean. But microscopically, you've got these bacteria that are 283 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 3: lurking around, and if they get on a conveyor belt, 284 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: they get on a slide that products going over, they 285 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 3: will transfer onto that product and end up. Slicers are 286 00:16:54,400 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 3: notoriously difficult to clean, both in plants, facilities and also 287 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: in retail delis. Wow, the slicer is a very common 288 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 3: vehicle to spread bacterial contamination in retail delis. 289 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,959 Speaker 1: That is so scary. And you have never been an 290 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: alarmist ever when I've asked you can I eat this? 291 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: Can I eat that? You always You're actually less of 292 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: an alarmists than I would think. But I remember when 293 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: I was pregnant, you were adamant do not eat deli meat, 294 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: and all I wanted was a subway sandwich. I mean 295 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: the entire time, That's all I wanted. But that you 296 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: were adamant is I'm curious and you might not be. 297 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: It might be based on the strain. But if you 298 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: compared E Coli to salmonella to listeria, is one significantly 299 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: more deadly than the other? 300 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 3: Well, Listeria monocytogenes has a higher mortality rate, you know, 301 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 3: per thousand illnesses. However, we talked about the different strains 302 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 3: of salmonella, and they vary greatly in terms of their pathogenicity, 303 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 3: so you know how they can make you ill. When 304 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 3: we talk about E. Coli. Everybody talks about E. Coli 305 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 3: very generically, but what we in food safety talk about 306 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 3: specifically are shigotoxin producing E coli. And these are the 307 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 3: ones you hear about OH one five seven or OH 308 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: one two four. These are markers or identifying characteristics of 309 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 3: these organisms, and they produce a shigotoxin, a very powerful toxin. 310 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 3: And OH one five seven, which was implicated early on 311 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 3: in the early nineties in the famous Hamburger recalls that 312 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 3: made headlines. And you mentioned an attorney who started out 313 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: in that area. I know Bill Marler. 314 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: Oh, that's exactly who it is. That's so funny. 315 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 3: I know Bill very well, and yeah, he's made a 316 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 3: career out of hawking this and working with victims of 317 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 3: food born illness. 318 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: So he's not really exhausted. 319 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 3: I'm kidding, Yeah, I think, well, you know Bill. Bill's 320 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 3: line was, please put me out of work, you know, 321 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 3: and so you know it was it always had some 322 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 3: good conversations about what we were doing to to improve 323 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 3: food safety. But these one five seven E Coli O 324 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 3: one five seven H seven was the organism that caused 325 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: those outbreaks, and they are very pathogenic. So as small 326 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 3: as one cell and a vulnerable individual can you know, 327 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 3: cause serious illness. And what most people end up dying 328 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: from from oh one five seven is kidney failure because 329 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 3: the organism will colonize the kidney and basically break it down. 330 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 3: The reason that I didn't want you eating Deli meats 331 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 3: when you were pregnant is because Listerium monopsytogenies is notorious 332 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 3: for causing spontaneous abortion. So you become infected, and if 333 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 3: you're pregnant, you're very vulnerable because your immune system is suppressed, 334 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 3: and that organism can induce a spontaneous abortion. 335 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: Okay, it's you all, forgive me. I'm a little behind here. 336 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: But is this not something that women when they go 337 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 2: in to talk to their doctum when they are pregnant, 338 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 2: that is talked about with women? Deli meat, it wasn't. 339 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: I think they say try don't eat deli meat, don't 340 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: eat sushi because of mercury levels. But for me, it wasn't. 341 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: I wasn't told it. If you eat this, you are 342 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: putting your fetus at risk. No, it was not said 343 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: in those very specific terms. So when Dad said it 344 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: to me, I was a little shocked. I mean he 345 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: was like, absolutely no. 346 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 2: Like you said, no, you're not alarmist, But to hear 347 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: a microbiologist, somebody you care about that much he's pregnant, 348 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 2: you said, no, don't do this, that's a strong. 349 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 3: It's a it's a reasonable precaution to take, because you know, 350 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 3: you're talking about deli meats, you're talking about soft ripened cheeses. 351 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 3: You know these are typical vehicles for Lasteria monocytogenies. And 352 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 3: now I got to say that the industry, the meat 353 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: processing industry, has gotten a heck of a lot better. 354 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 3: I mean, the boris head incident was one that we 355 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: hadn't really heard about in a while. I mean, it 356 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 3: hadn't been implicated Deli meats had not been implicated in 357 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: lasteria outbreaks like this for a for a while. I 358 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 3: remember in my career back in the in the nineties, 359 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 3: we worked long and hard to improve our sanitation systems, 360 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 3: our cleaning systems, and our monitor our microbiological monitoring systems 361 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 3: so we could identify if we were getting a listeria 362 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 3: problem growing in a plant. So it was job number 363 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 3: one and are ready to eat plant is to make 364 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 3: sure that you're keeping listeria out of that environment. 365 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: Wow, catching the outbreaks is one thing, and it seems 366 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: like we're doing as a government or as a country better. 367 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: But how can the industry do better at preventing the outports? 368 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: I mean, what have you seen happen and is that 369 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: something that still needs improvement or are they doing as 370 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: good as good of a job as they can? 371 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 3: Well, I think you can always do better, you know, 372 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 3: And at the end of the day, it comes down 373 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 3: to the human beings and the plant implementing the programs 374 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 3: and the processes that have been developed. So the industry 375 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 3: has spent a lot of time working collaboratively around ways 376 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 3: to improve cleaning and sanitation and what we call operational sanitation, 377 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 3: so that is wild the plant is running, you're keeping 378 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 3: things clean, you're keeping things as dry as you can, 379 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 3: You're keeping them moving along in a sanitary manner. Equipment 380 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: has gotten a lot better, so it's easier to keep 381 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 3: cleaned once it's been clean and sanitized, and that work continues, 382 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: constantly continues. You know, we've looked at different techniques you know, 383 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 3: that you can use while the plant's in operation to 384 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 3: assure that you're keeping any loads down to a reasonable level. Now, 385 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 3: as long as you're working with fresh product, it's not 386 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 3: going to be sterile. So there's always going to be 387 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 3: bacteria present because they're present naturally and are ready to 388 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: eat plant. We've done a much better job in designing 389 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 3: the facility so that you separate raw from cooked and 390 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 3: you don't have crossover of personnel, you don't have crossover 391 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 3: of equipment. You don't have you have airflow that's positive 392 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: air in the in the finished product area, in the 393 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 3: ready to eat area, once it's been cooked, you have 394 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: positive air, so air is being pushed out. You don't 395 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: have air coming in from the outside or from the 396 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 3: raw area. 397 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 2: You know, it's sounding like from it sounds like from you. 398 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: Everybody else all this coverage and everything, everybody's going crazy, 399 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 2: all these recalls. But from you, a guy who's been 400 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,239 Speaker 2: in the industry your whole career, sounds like you're not 401 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: necessarily concerned. Like things are working. It mean, it sounds 402 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: like you have faith in the system right now. 403 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 3: Things are working. I mean, I feel very confident with 404 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 3: the folks I still know in the meat industry. Who 405 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 3: are you know, very diligent in the approach to this. 406 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 3: I mean, all the big companies work collaboratively around food safety. 407 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 3: One of the things we said. I was part of 408 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 3: the Global Food Safety Initiative for about fifteen years, and 409 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 3: the Global Food Safety Initiative was focused on the fact 410 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: that food safety is not a competitive advantage, and so 411 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: we were out sharing with one another our processes, our techniques, 412 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 3: our technology so that everybody had access to it. We'll 413 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 3: compete on quality, but we're not going to compete on 414 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 3: food safety. 415 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: That's really nice to hear. That's nice to hear. I'm curious, 416 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: are there certain products that are always going to be 417 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: riskier to eat. Is there something that you feel uncomfortable eating. 418 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: I'm just curious. 419 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 3: I don't eat sprouts, and I think you have to 420 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 3: be more diligent these days in consuming fresh produce, because again, 421 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 3: there's not a kill step in fresh produce. You know, 422 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 3: you buy meat, you're going to handle it appropriately, and 423 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 3: you're going to cook it before you eat it and 424 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 3: are ready to eat meat scenario. You know it's cooked 425 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 3: meat that you eating, salami, maloney, you know deli meats, 426 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 3: they're cooked, you know, So assuming that you don't have 427 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 3: a disaster like happening at the boresh head plant, you 428 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 3: know you can be relatively I think, comfortable eating those 429 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 3: those products produce. There's no kill step. You know, you're 430 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 3: not cooking your kale, You're not cooking your lettuce or 431 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 3: your spinach. I mean you could cook spinach, I guess, 432 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 3: but a lot of people eat it raw. And sprouts 433 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: have notoriously been grown in a wet, moist, warm environment, 434 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 3: which is very conducive to the growth of bacterial pathogens. 435 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: And they're hard. 436 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 3: So yes, they're hard to wash. And I don't eat 437 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 3: sprouts at all. 438 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: This is a microbiologist. Then there's one thing that is 439 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: off the table for him always. And that's sprouts. Now, 440 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: even at home, we can walk, you can wash them 441 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: to Even at home, you wouldn't trust I don't. 442 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 3: I just don't eat sprout sprout, But certainly not at 443 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 3: a restaurant. No, certainly not at a restaurant. 444 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 2: What about a buffet? 445 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: Oh, don't don't. 446 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: I don't eat a phase because he doesn't need a phase. 447 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: And if you actually just I'm just gonna say, stand 448 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: a few feet away and just watch people for about 449 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: five minutes, and you will see so much disgusting behavior 450 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: you won't want to eat at a buffet either. I 451 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: told you what I saw at the Delta Sky Club 452 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: the other day. 453 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 2: No, he didn't. 454 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: Yes, this man took his hands and went and got pickles, 455 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: and it took his other hand and got another pickle. 456 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: And I had a pickle on my plate that I 457 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,719 Speaker 1: used the tongs for. I threw the pickle away and 458 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: said never again, because that wasn't eaten. I mean, that 459 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: wasn't cooked either. Can Can I trust my produce? Can 460 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: I trust restaurants? I mean, how do you grapple with that? 461 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: When you see all the headlines, you think, Wow, do 462 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: I really want to eat out or you know, can 463 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: I trust that these cucumbers are going to be saved? 464 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 3: Well, that's a really good question, you know. I mean, 465 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 3: let me let me say this. I mean, I think 466 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 3: that most food service establishments, you know, and I think 467 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 3: you know, we we we talked a little bit about McDonald's. 468 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 3: McDonald's has some of the best food safety management systems 469 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: in the restaurant industry. They have clamshell cookers for their 470 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 3: ground beef patties. That is not under the control of 471 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 3: a teenager in the back of the house. It's computer generated. 472 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 3: And boy, when that quarter pounder burger goes down there, 473 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 3: that clamshell comes down and it doesn't come off until 474 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 3: the validated cook time is over. So I feel safe 475 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 3: at you know, eating at a lot of the restaurants 476 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 3: where you know, they there's a focus on food safety. Now, 477 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 3: one of the things that you have to be careful 478 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 3: about is you go to some places and you order 479 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 3: a rare hamburger. Some states won't serve a rare hamburger, 480 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 3: but some places you can still go in and get 481 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 3: a rare hamburger. You know, I personally would not probably 482 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 3: eat a rare hamburger. 483 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: Is medium Okay, that's what I usually. I mean, you know, 484 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a risk. 485 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 3: Well, you have to be careful because people say medium, 486 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 3: What does that mean? Is that one hundred and forty 487 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 3: five degrees? Is it one hundred and fifty degrees? Is 488 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,959 Speaker 3: it one hundred and fifty five degrees? You don't know, 489 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 3: people say, oh, a little bit of pink in the middle. 490 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: You cannot determine the dunness of meat based on color, 491 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 3: and that's a fallacy that a lot of people have. 492 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 3: They think, oh, look it's you know, cooked all the 493 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 3: way through. 494 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: It might not be. 495 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 3: It might have been oxidized meat that was already brown 496 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 3: when they put it in the pan. 497 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: What's your hamburger? 498 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 3: Order that medium? 499 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, just making sure you're a little bit 500 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: of a risk take. 501 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 3: Well, I'm a I'm a believer in acquired immunity, So 502 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 3: I mean, so a little bit of something. Now I'm 503 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: not talking about ecole one five seven h seven or 504 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 3: or highly pathogenic salmonella or anything like that, but you know, 505 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 3: a little bit of bacterial consumption is not bad for you. 506 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 3: I mean, wat yogurt, right, it's full of bacteria, you know, 507 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 3: I mean they're all good back to they're all lacked 508 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 3: up a Solla streptococas. So they're good things for you just. 509 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: Showing out now, stop But which I assume all of them? 510 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 2: But but tell me I go with chicken. Look, this 511 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 2: is a might be a stupid question for but it 512 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: comes from a guy who's in the kitchen all the time. 513 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 2: Which which of these meats you better make damn sure 514 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 2: you don't undercook like chicken, pork, ground beef, ground turkey, 515 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 2: state all these things, like you don't want to undercook 516 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: I assume anything, But what are those dangers? And what 517 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 2: do you better make? Damn sure you don't undercook. 518 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 3: Anything that's ground. You want to make sure that you cook, 519 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 3: you know, so ground beef should be cooked to one 520 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 3: hundred and sixty degrees, ground turkey and ground chicken to 521 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 3: one sixty five. So anything that's not what I call intact. 522 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: In other words, if it's ground, if you've broken it up, 523 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 3: even if it's been needle tenderized, that means that the 524 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 3: surface has been compromised and you've had the opportunity for 525 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 3: bacteria to get down into the inside of the meat. 526 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,959 Speaker 3: So those meats and you need to make sure that 527 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 3: they're fully cooked to be safe. A steak, which is 528 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,239 Speaker 3: an intact eake like a filet mignon, I have no 529 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 3: problem meeting those medium rare. So you could have a 530 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 3: you know, kind of warm red center, you know, so 531 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 3: uh that maybe got up to one hundred and thirty 532 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 3: five degrees one hundred and forty, but the surface was 533 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 3: fully cooked. The surface made it up to that one 534 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 3: sixty mark, but the inside didn't. But the inside, the 535 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 3: muscle itself, is sterile. Wow, So you can go ahead 536 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: and eat that, you know, pork, pork you want to cook. 537 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 3: I mean, we used to have a problem called trick 538 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 3: and Ella trick and osis, which was a nema toad 539 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 3: that would bury into the muscle of a of a hog, 540 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 3: and people were getting trick and osis from eating under 541 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 3: cooked pork. We monitored the herds for for that now. 542 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 3: But nonetheless, I always like my pork done, you know, 543 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 3: probably medium. Well. 544 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: I never know what to cook pork like that. And 545 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: obviously chicken is a non. 546 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 3: Chicken is you know, one one sixty to one sixty five. 547 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: I've had to send two chicken breasts back in recent 548 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: months because when I cut into it, I saw pink. 549 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: If you see pink, you should not eat it. 550 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 3: Correct Well, again, color is not an indication of cooking, 551 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 3: even with chicken, and sometimes sometimes if the chicken has 552 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: been marinated, it can be marinated with some salts that 553 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 3: can cause some pinking in the product. You really have 554 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 3: to look at the texture of the meat itself to 555 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,959 Speaker 3: determine whether it's cooked or not. 556 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: But better safe than sorry, better safe than sorry. 557 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're uncomfortable eating pink, check and then you 558 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 3: shouldn't need it. I know, probably not a bad thing. 559 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: Do you know the answer? What is the meat in 560 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: the mickrib? 561 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 3: It's pork, okay. 562 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's some slivered onions on it. You know what? 563 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: What is the also thesterious almonla e Coli? Generally speaking? 564 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: I know they're different strains hundreds, and I know you 565 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 2: can name all of them. But what is the difference 566 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 2: how soon you might see illness with these three things 567 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: if you ingest them. 568 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it depends on the organism, and it depends on 569 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 3: the dose. There's a term we use called dose response, 570 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 3: you know, So if you get a big dose of salmonella, 571 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 3: you'll probably have symptoms in twenty four to thirty six hours. 572 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 2: What's a big dose, Like, what does that even mean? 573 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 3: Well, I mean it'd be like a thousand cells program, 574 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 3: So you know, pretty good load, pretty good, a highly 575 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 3: contaminated product. 576 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: But it can take even longer if it's not as it. 577 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 3: Can and listeria takes a little longer. Listeria' is more 578 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 3: like forty eight to seventy two to ninety six hours. 579 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 3: Now there's other organisms too we haven't talked about, like 580 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 3: stapf oreas. So we had an experience with we think 581 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 3: staph orios when we were in Berlin after the marathon. 582 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: Can you say you mean you yeah, yeah, you don 583 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: eat that. 584 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 2: So so that is. 585 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 3: An illness that is a little different because it's a 586 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 3: it's an intoxication. So it's a toxin that's produced by 587 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 3: staff for it's called enerotoxin, and you can have symptoms 588 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 3: in you know, six to twelve hours and those are 589 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 3: normally it's normally vomiting, which was consistent with what we. 590 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: And it was it was immediate and it was strong, right, 591 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: it was powerful. 592 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 3: It was powerful again again, depending on the dose, some 593 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 3: people got sicker and were sicker longer than others based 594 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 3: on what they ate. 595 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: You know on the dose thing. Okay, back to that 596 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: fort is it? You say, dose ite and potency? Is 597 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 2: it possible? I might have a huge piece of chicken 598 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: here with salmonella in it, and then a small piece 599 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 2: of chicken here with salmonella, and the smaller one could 600 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 2: have some kind of higher concentration of salmonella, and I 601 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 2: could end up getting sicker by eating the smaller piece than. 602 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not about the amount of meat you eat. 603 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 3: It's about the number of salmonella the cells you're consuming. 604 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 3: And because what salmonova does, like E. Coli, those organisms, 605 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 3: then it's an infection. They colonize your GI track. Yeah, 606 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 3: and they are gram negative bacteria, so they produce what 607 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 3: is called an endotoxin, and that toxin then slowly is 608 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 3: released and it kind of peels off the layer of 609 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 3: your intestines and that's releasing water and that's why you 610 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 3: get diarrhea. And in severe cases, then can it can 611 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 3: actually colonize through the intestinal wall and get into your 612 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 3: bloodstream and then you've got sepsis, Then you've got kidney infections. 613 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: You've got and that's very very serious. 614 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 1: It's if you live long enough, if you travel enough, 615 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: eventually you're going to go through one of these moments. 616 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: But I remember Dad calling you. I was living in 617 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: DC and I was I could not stop vomiting. And 618 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: I was like, Dad, what's going on? And you said, 619 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: what's the last thing you would And I was like fruit? 620 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,439 Speaker 1: And he was like, did you cut and wash the fruit? 621 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: I was like no, it was pre cut in the 622 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: grocery store. He was like, how long ago did you 623 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: eat that? I was like two hours ago. He's like, 624 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: you have staff and you need to go get you 625 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: some help right now, Like you knew the incubation incubation 626 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: period and the fact that I hadn't I hadn't cut 627 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: the fruit, and I hadn't washed the fruit with strawberries 628 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: and bluebear berries. And now I will never buy pre 629 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: cut the fruit at a grocery store. 630 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, that's a big deal. Well, I would 631 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 2: never have thought of that slice for people grab them 632 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 2: every single morning and go about their way. You're saying 633 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 2: you should rinse that off fruit. 634 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 3: I mean, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. 635 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 3: And in this case, it was a worker whoever, or 636 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 3: or the the cutting board wherever they did the slicing 637 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 3: of the. 638 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 2: Fruit could have been right there at the grocery store. 639 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 3: I could have been right at the grocery store. Yeah, yeah, 640 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: you know they're because not all grocery store workers, whether 641 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 3: they're in the deli or they're in the fruit cut 642 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 3: up area, are necessyally properly trained. A lot of people 643 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 3: wear gloves. You see them wearing gloves, but you know 644 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 3: why they're wearing gloves. They're wearing gloves. They're thinking to 645 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,399 Speaker 3: protect themselves as opposed. You know, we used to make 646 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 3: a joke that you probably should require people to wear 647 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 3: gloves when they go into the bathroom and then take 648 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 3: them off when they leave, because that would be that 649 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 3: would be more sanitary. 650 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: You know. 651 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 3: Then people wearing their gloves and then they're on the phone, 652 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 3: they're writing in order, they're at the cash register, they're 653 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 3: not changing their gloves. 654 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: During COVID you went bananas when you saw people doing that, 655 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: because you said, they're actually not helping not spread COVID 656 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: impact Because you have gloves on, somehow you think you're protected, 657 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: and you probably do things you wouldn't do, and then 658 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: you don't wash your hands because you have the gloves on, 659 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: so you're actually being less clean by wearing the gloves. 660 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: So you never liked seeing workers wearing gloves. 661 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a I mean, if you have proper hand 662 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 3: washing and sanitation going on, you know, you don't really 663 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 3: need to wear gloves. Now. I mean for people that 664 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 3: are in a hurry, if you change gloves between each 665 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 3: each transaction or each time you're handling meat at a 666 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 3: slicer or cheese at a slicer, that's fine, that's right. 667 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: I doubt that, but you. 668 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 3: Would be you're changing your gloves constantly if you do that. Wow, 669 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 3: And most people don't do that all right. 670 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: So do all of these headlines dat in your opinion, 671 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: help or do they hurt? Do people overreact or maybe 672 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: even do they grow desensitized to it? Do you think 673 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: that we need to calm down in the media, maybe 674 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: even by reporting all of these all of these different recalls. 675 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: What's your take on the media's role in all of this. 676 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 3: I think it's important that these things are reported so 677 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 3: people are aware. I mean, that's just information that people 678 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 3: need to have. And I think that what you have 679 00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 3: to do is you have to read between the lines 680 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 3: because what you're seeing with a lot of these recalls, 681 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 3: with cucumbers with carrots, you then get subsequent recalls that 682 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 3: are related to the same root cause, because my carrots 683 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 3: didn't just get sold as carrots in a package. They 684 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 3: also got sold to some guy that's making salads and 685 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 3: somebody that's making other products. And so as the trace 686 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,439 Speaker 3: back continues, as they look at where did all those 687 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 3: carrots go, Where did all those cucumbers go, Where did 688 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 3: all those onions go? You get subsequent recalls when you 689 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,879 Speaker 3: trace it back, and so sometimes things seem bigger than 690 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 3: they are because there's all these continuing recalls. Often, though, 691 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 3: some companies try to recall as little product as possible, 692 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 3: and then they subsequently find out and this happened or 693 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 3: said they subsequently find out that the problem was just 694 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 3: not related to my liverworst line, but I had other problems. 695 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 3: So then they have to then start recalling additional products. 696 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 3: My philosophy was identify the problem, identify the scope, and 697 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 3: then just take it all back, get it all out 698 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 3: of the marketplace, and then take your corrective action in 699 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 3: your plant before you start up again. 700 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 2: But there was a financial reason they don't want to 701 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 2: do a wide. 702 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 3: I think they feel that having a ten thousand pound 703 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 3: recall is better than having a one hundred thousand pound 704 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 3: recall or a million pound recall, when in fact of 705 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 3: the matter, I don't think most people really that doesn't register. 706 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 3: Just get any potentially contaminated product out of the marketplace, 707 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,399 Speaker 3: and a lot of these perishable products, the product's already gone. 708 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,320 Speaker 3: You're not going to get it back anyway. It's already 709 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 3: been consumed. So we did a recall back in twenty 710 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 3: thirteen that the US Department of Agriculture was upset with 711 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 3: me because I expanded the scope of our recall. Initially, 712 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 3: they were getting ready to ask us to recall a 713 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 3: relatively small amount related to a cluster of illnesses, and 714 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 3: we went back and looked at the data and looked 715 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 3: at the spread, and I had some conversations with some 716 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 3: colleagues at the CDC, and it became obvious to me 717 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 3: that this was much more widespread than was a parent. 718 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 3: So I went back and recalled product from February all 719 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 3: the way to August, and the US Department of Agriculture, 720 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 3: the undersecretary called me and said, why are you doing this? 721 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 3: And my response was, what part of voluntary? Don't you understand? 722 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 3: What's a voluntary recall. 723 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 2: But why would the USDA have any issue? Well, would 724 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:54,320 Speaker 2: the government have an issue with you? 725 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 3: Because they they wanted to tell me what to do? 726 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 2: What it is that really it? 727 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 3: Well, that's the only reason I could come up with, 728 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 3: because otherwise I'd be saying thank you very much for 729 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 3: doing the right thing. 730 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 2: But the government is trying to get a company to 731 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 2: limit the recall. 732 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 3: They weren't getting it trying to get us to limit it. 733 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 3: They just wanted us to recall what they were asking 734 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 3: us to recall. And we went beyond that. 735 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 2: But most of the recalls we end up seeing are voluntary. 736 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 3: Right for they're all voluntary. 737 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 2: They're all volunteary. But the government can or cannot force them. 738 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 3: The government could go out and seize product, They can 739 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 3: go out and seize products so. 740 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 2: Fast, but they can't issue the recall. Actually that the 741 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 2: recalls don't. 742 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 3: They can announce that the company is doing a recall. 743 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 3: But if the company does the recall, what the government 744 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 3: has the FDA and USDA can go out and they 745 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 3: can seize product in the marketplace. 746 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 2: Which happens. 747 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 3: It's how often voluntary recall I would say ninety nine 748 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 3: point nine nine percent. I mean there are some There 749 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 3: are some famous cases where people resisted, but those are 750 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 3: quite rare. The industry is very responsible, you know. I've 751 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 3: always told people, and working with consumer groups for a 752 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 3: good part of my career is what I did. I 753 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 3: would often say, you know, it's not a great business 754 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 3: practice to make your customers ill, so it's not in 755 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 3: our best interest to do that. So believe me, we 756 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,879 Speaker 3: are doing everything we can to make sure that we're 757 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 3: putting out safe, wholesome product for the consumer. 758 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: Well, Dad, this has been so fascinating, and I've heard 759 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: you talk about this over the years, but it's really 760 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: cool to be able to hear you put so many 761 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: answers to so many questions I still had, and I 762 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 1: know so many people listening have, So we really really 763 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,879 Speaker 1: appreciate it, and thank you. Thank you for coming. It's 764 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 1: nice to have you in town, but it's even nicer 765 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: to have you here in the studio with us. 766 00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 3: All Right, Well, thanks for having me. 767 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 2: Wait we have if you all, we have another episode 768 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 2: we do with Papa Robot here. We asked you all 769 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 2: to send in your questions. He is going to answer 770 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 2: all of those in another episode. Ask a microbiologist is 771 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,399 Speaker 2: what we call it, so make sure you tune in 772 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 2: for that or try to catch to that one, because 773 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,919 Speaker 2: I got some questions myself. 774 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: So do I, and apparently so do a lot of you. 775 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: So yes, take a look for that that will be 776 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: dropping soon