WEBVTT - Closing Arguments in the Derek Chauvin Murder Trial 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:08.760 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.200 The fate of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin is 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:17.000 now in the hands of the jury. After almost a 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.680 day of closing arguments in a courthouse ring with concrete 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:24.800 barriers and razor wire and National Guard members on patrol. 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.800 Minneapolis and other cities across the country are bracing for 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.560 the verdict. Joining me is former public defender Krista Groshek, 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:37.120 managing attorney of Groschek Law in Minneapolis. Give us your 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:41.200 opinion of the closing arguments in general. My opinion about 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.480 really both sides is that it was just far too long. 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.760 You know. I understand that there was some complex issued 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.680 and I understand that there's a lot of ground to cover, 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:52.839 but I do think that the cases could have been 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:58.440 streamlined easier for the jury to really wrap their minds 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.080 around it. I think that a case that could otherwise 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.680 have been argued it from a very emotional point of view, 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.560 was argued from a very technical point of view, which 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.560 I was a little surprised at coming from the prosecution. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.440 Neither lawyer told the story to the jury looking at 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:16.920 it from Derek Schovin's eyes, looking at it through George 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.000 Floyd's eye. But nobody really told that story. The prosecution 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.000 did a little. I think they tried their case. They also, 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.600 in very repetitive fashion, told the same story over and 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.520 over again. So given the amount of experts that they had, 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.480 I certainly think that they made their points over and 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.160 over again. And while it was long, you know, I 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.720 think that detracted from their message. I still think that 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.399 they made their point. The prosecution painted Chauvin as a 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.760 rogue actor and kept on, you know, emphasizing that policing 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:50.560 is not on trial. Also, believe your eyes. So do 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.400 you think those were good points? Well? To believe your eyes? 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.640 You know, that was a repeat from the opening, you know, 0:01:57.680 --> 0:01:59.920 which is really effective. You want to take a scene 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.040 and carried it all the way through to its conclusion, 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.560 pointing out things that support that being as you go along. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.200 But I was a little suprised in some ways. You know, 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.560 the prosecution say this is you know, policing is not 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:16.320 on trial. Certainly they wouldn't have to concede that point. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.560 I don't think they would have had to make it 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.400 in big bowl letters, but they certainly wouldn't have had 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:25.320 to concede it because so many people are concerned. You 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:30.200 know that the way Derek Chauvin acted is the way 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.880 police officers act all around the country, and perhaps they 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.120 were trying to sidestep with you know, what could have 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.440 been you know, arguments down the road with regard to 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.760 an appeal. But I just thought it would have been 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.239 better if they left it on said. The defense doesn't 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:49.679 have the burden obviously, and the defense attorney emphasized that 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.600 and reasonable doubt. Do you think they made any case 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:58.360 for reasonable debt on the jury's part. I definitely think 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.399 that while at first, Blush it felt a little confusing 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.080 that defense was playing you know, the videos where we 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.840 see you know, Floyd in these compromised positions, crying and pleading. 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.080 At first, Blush it was a questionable why is the 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:15.200 defense playing this? But he presented a number of different 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.480 body cameras that showed what what the police officers saw 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:21.680 to see and in particular what Showvin saw when he 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:25.120 showed up right like, this is what he's confronted with 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:27.680 um And I thought the defense brought out some other 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.160 unique points that you know, when shown did engage that 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.320 he had his body camera kicked off, you know, there 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.119 was enough force from a kick um. He also tried 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:36.880 to point out, you know that the police car was 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.240 rocking when there was attempts to put Floyd in the 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.960 back of the car. So I do think the defense 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:47.880 and brought out things about what actually was happening versus 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.040 what people were perceiving was happening people who on the 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:52.880 other side of the police car, And that was something 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.640 that the defense alluded to in the opening, and they 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.880 came back and then and then tied that up nicely 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.680 in the clothing. So I do think that the defense 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.240 had a number of things that should give the jury 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.680 pause about, you know, what was happening, why officers responded 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:10.400 the way that they did, and then you know, what 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.280 do we really know about these medical circumstances. The defense 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.719 pointed out that the prosecution experts came in and they 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.000 didn't present a unified theory. They each sort of had 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.760 their own theories about why they didn't believe that, you know, 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.920 Floyd d died of an overdose or or a heart attack. 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.640 But their series didn't exactly come together like a nicely 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:37.120 coordinated quote for example. So I think the defense got 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.839 some shots in some of it was just hard to 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.160 keep tracking because it was so long. The prosecution had 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:47.200 so many expert witnesses, and the defense had a few 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:52.039 expert witnesses. But even their experts seemed to have conceded 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.440 some factors on cross examination. So I wonder if that 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.200 is a big problem for the defense. It wasn't really 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.479 a battle of the experts so much like you see 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.080 in some trials where it's like renowned expert against that 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:08.120 renowned expert. Yeah, I agree with you. Um. You know, 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.400 in order for experts to be credible, certainly there are 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:14.560 points that they have to concede. If they don't concede it, well, 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:16.880 then they lose credibility, right if they're going to maintain 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.719 a certain position that you know, it's contrary to the 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.760 facts or logic. Right. Um, they're generally speaking, in some 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.160 things they need to concede. In this case, these experts 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:32.120 seem to concede and easily concede. Um, some pretty important 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:36.880 points I expected, or or believe, And you know, perhaps 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.400 they don't have all the information, but I thought Fowler 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.160 had employed a pannel or was part of a panel 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:47.880 of other experts that came together to give opinions from 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.080 a holistic point of view. I thought, perhaps suddenly would 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:55.800 start hearing from these other experts that worked in some 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.320 of these other areas. Right, if it was a heart 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.000 doctor and a lung doctor, and a brain doctor, right, 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.840 and a toxicologist and a medical examiner, if they all 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.400 would set around and looked at everything from their unique 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.960 points of view. I thought, maybe after Follower's testimony, we 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.320 hear the opinions of some of those people to get 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:20.120 an understanding of why Follower test side the way he did, 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.239 and in fact them have some additional expert opinion evidence 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.680 to both ster its points. But we didn't see that. 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.159 We didn't see that, and obviously you know, we're not 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.120 privy to why um. But I thought that the defense 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.400 at that point then would pull out some of these 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:38.480 additional ex experts. How important are these closing arguments? As 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:43.000 a practicing attorney, I like to believe the closing arguments 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.440 are what can make the difference, and in many cases 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.320 where there's complex information, I believe that it is. You know, 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.000 sometimes it's hard to see exactly where a defense attorney 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.240 is going after there's a plethora of questions asked, and 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.000 it's about topics that you know, lay people or even 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.760 the lawyers you know, uh have it addressed or become 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.680 familiar with before. So I do think closing arguments make 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.520 a really big difference. I think opening statements are also 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:16.680 equally important, so you know, the tenor of it, the themes, uh, storytelling. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.520 I think it's super important. And we didn't see a 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.400 lot of that from either side here really, um, I 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.040 think closing arguments do have the potential to make or 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.920 break a case. I do. And so you know, I 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.240 know that you thought they went too long and they 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.920 didn't tell a great story, but did they get their 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.800 points across? I think each side, yes, got their points across, 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.480 and I think each side sort of went about it 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.400 in the same way, which is pretty interesting to me. 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:47.720 It was almost like the attorney's match their style, right Like, 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.320 typically speaking, we see prosecutors being a little bit more 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.360 focused on the elements, maybe a little bit more rigid, 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.040 maybe a little bit more dry, and then you know, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.200 generally speaking, we see defense attorneys things very color boll 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.840 and telling a lot of stories and really digging into 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.480 some of those visceral elements. We didn't see that here, 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.880 and perhaps that was strategic on sur Nelton's part that 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.000 he was going to meet each one of their arguments 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.040 step by step, he was going to go through it categorically. 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.760 So I do think in that way then the argument 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.080 felt pretty equally yoked, and certainly in terms of time, 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.440 but definitely in terms of how much they covered. Each 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.240 side went into great detail and oftentimes revisited, you know, 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.640 different categories to make their voices heard and their points known. 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.520 So I would say I think each side got to 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:38.800 what they needed to get done, and they were very 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.960 thorough about it. What about the requirement that the use 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:47.120 of force was unreasonable, Well, I think that's quite frankly 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.240 was the weaker part of their Tas you know, Chauvin's 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.880 out is that he was reasonable and the force that 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.440 he chose to employ to be digging outside of that, 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.880 that's becomes a real problem for him. And when it 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.440 comes to you know, the experts that test side for 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.000 the defense, you know, he said some things that made 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:04.960 it difficult for the jury, I think, to want to 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.040 trust him, like how he was resting comfortably on the ground, 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.880 and how putting somebody down in a prom position isn't 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.240 a useful force. And then he had to walk those 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.240 things back and then did do so without being pressed 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.840 too hard um by the prosecutors. So I do like 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.760 what what Mr Nelson did when it came to the 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.000 closing argument, going back to those manuals, going back to 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.320 the actual training materials, and you know that brings out 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.959 a fair amount of bias. I think as it relates 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.439 to the States experts that tried really really hard to 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.880 distance themselves from Showman as far as they could. So well, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:45.000 I think the defenses expert witness perhaps UM didn't give 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.360 them as much play as they'd hoped. I do think 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.560 they did a nice job. Would be exhibits UM and 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:52.959 the training materials that are in evidence and that the 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.320 jury will have an opportunity to look at, you know, 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.760 upposing personal and review. Would you explain the differences between 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:03.600 the of the three charges that he's facing, what they 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.160 have to prove in each sure so as it relates 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:11.640 to UM, the felony murder the top count where you 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.720 know there's a much higher maximum penalty. Should the prosecution 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.800 get a conviction, then they can ask for upward departures 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.199 and what not to try to get culture to that maximum. 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.680 They have to prove that he was intentionally committing an 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.199 assault and in this case was intactually making it so 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:32.959 George Floyd couldn't breathe. If they can prove that right, 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.800 then they're in a good position to then say, yep, 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:41.439 and Chauvin was a substantial um uh cause of Floyd's 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:46.440 death and therefore because he intentionally employed UM acts that 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.360 then UM caused him not to breathe, he's guilty of 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.640 what came later, and that being the death right for 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.720 some UM defense attorneys in the circle of that that 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.920 I'm in first UM UM that that certainly has been 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.880 thought to be a more difficult path to the jury, 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.680 especially mon there was you know, commotion at the scene 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:14.040 and some resistance for sure that was captured by Floyd. UM. 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.440 So basically I think that the jury would have to 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.920 believe that showing a bad guy, that that he's a 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.120 bad scene top that, UM he was on the force, 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.240 and UM he decided in that moment when there's a 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.160 bunch of people around his big videotape and you know, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.400 other members of his force and he has his has 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.200 his body came on that that he is going to 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.479 intentionally make it Solf White can't breathe. I think that's 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.559 a hard sell. UM but it's certainly is possible in 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.439 the climate in which we find ourselves. Right. And then 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.720 there's the prave mind murder to crave mind murder as 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:52.360 the controversial charge of a person essentially UM taking a 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:56.000 risk UM that is so great that it could endanger 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.120 people and and and essentially kill people. Right. Um. The 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.560 examples that we've cited UM in Minnesota previous to our 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:10.040 recent Appellate Court ruling have UM covered things like giving 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.920 drugs to somebody UM and then that causes their death. So, 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:17.800 for example, the other passenger and Mr Floyd's car car 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.679 who employed UM use of the Fifth Amendment and chose 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.599 not to testify and not answer one question because his 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.280 lawyer effectively argued that for him to even put himself 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.000 in the car puts himself in a position where he's 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.320 looking at charges, and certainly to potentially admit that he 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.040 gave Mr Floyd the drug puts him in a spot 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.880 where he could be facing charges of the crave mind murder. Right. 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.720 Another example previous to our recent Court Court of Appeals 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.400 ruling of the crave mind murder is driving a hundred 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.480 miles through downtown and causing you know, the death of 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.520 somebody you didn't intend to, and you certainly didn't point 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.440 your acts toward one particular person. But but in effect, 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:00.640 nonetheless you're depraved mind caused the death. Right. And then 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:05.320 we've got manslaughter too, which in some other states um 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.480 has been called involuntary manslaughter. So you don't have any 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:14.319 intent to cause the death, but you consciously take a 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:19.800 risk um that that you should know right in dangers 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.080 a person's life. Um. That was the most recent charge 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.360 for the officer in Brooklyn Center here in Minnesota, where 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.000 she claims that she thought she had her taser but 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.079 she grabbed her gun. Um. And without getting into the 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.560 weeds and commenting on that case, you know that case 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.079 is going to turn on whether or not she consciously 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:41.920 took her risk. Right. And so the lowest charge is 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:44.760 of course the easiest charge in which the jury could 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.120 reach a conviction from Mr Chauvin, because mealing out his 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.880 neck for that long under all the circumstances that has 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.840 been pointed out could be him taking a conscious risk 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:00.280 that then caused the death of Mr Floyd. Thanks stud 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:06.040 that's Krista Groschek of Grosseek Lawn, Minneapolis. First Domino has 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.960 fallen in the Johnstice Department's investigation into the deadly January 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.760 six insurrection. A founding member of the far right group 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.960 the Oathkeepers has entered the first guilty place stemming from 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.040 the Capitol riot and has agreed to cooperate with the 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.320 Jostice Department. John Schaefer entered his guilty plea on Friday 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.320 to two counts, including obstruction of an official proceeding joining 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.800 me is Bloomberg Legal reporter David Yaffee bellany what do 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.720 we know about John Schaefer? So we know that John 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.800 Schaefer was among the hundreds of Donald Trump supporters who 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:44.720 stormed the Capitol on January six, that he's affiliated with 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.000 the Oathkeepers. He is which is one of the far 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.720 right wing groups that was heavily involved in the riot. 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.600 He was wearing an Oathkeeper's cap when he entered the Capital. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.320 He is described by the Justice Department as a lifetime 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.800 founding member of the Oathkeeper is kind of a central 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:05.160 figure in the organization, and we now know um that 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.040 he is the first of the hundreds of people charged 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.800 in the Capital riot to to plead guilty and agree 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:14.800 to cooperate in the Justice Department's investigation. What did he 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:19.560 admit to in his play? So he admitted to storming 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.160 the capital and to you know, breaking laws in the 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.720 process of doing that. You know, he was also a 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.240 huge specific things like using kind of a chemical spray 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.239 as he forced his way in. So he's admitting to 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.320 having done that as well. And he's you know, crucially 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.480 promising to work with investigators they seek to kind of 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.320 to build bigger cases and and and take down people 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.640 who were involved in the riot. So this play is 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:51.760 being looked on as a breakthrough. Why so in any 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:56.360 major investigation, you need people to cooperate um your goals 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.880 not just to kind of get the low hanging fruit 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.080 in this case, you know, the people who post itselfies 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.560 of of themselves storming the capital, but but also to 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.080 use them use what they know to kind of go 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.760 after people who may have been more intimately involved in 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.400 the kind of orchestrating the crime in this case as 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.240 the siege of the Capitol. And I think, you know, 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.400 we don't know what Schaefer knows and you know, what 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.080 evidence he might be able to supply to investigators, but 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:28.360 one of the largest conspiracy cases stemming from from this 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:33.280 investigation targets about a dozen members of the Outhkeepers, not 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.160 including Schaefer, and so it's reasonable to speculate that the 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.080 SAIDs might be hoping that Schaefer can sort of shine 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.680 a light on on what those other members of the 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.360 militia we're doing and help them kind of build that 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.680 bigger case that really targets the people who may have 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.240 orchestrated the riot. So that would work even if he 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:57.120 had a minor role in orchestrating it all depends on 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.440 what he knows. I mean, he hasn't been charged as 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.080 part of the that conspiracy, which suggests that prosecutors don't 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.720 think that he was actually involved in it, though of 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.160 course maybe they do, and they've just refrained from charging him, 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.680 and you know, are just hoping to get the information 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.080 that he has. But we just the answer is, we 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.080 just really don't know. I mean, this could be this 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:17.520 could be a you know, turn out to be a 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.040 relatively minor plea deal. It doesn't yield much information. But 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.600 you know, given the way that the Justice Department trumpeted 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.040 this announcement, given the fact that it's the first plea 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.439 deal they've reached, they clearly prioritized and tried to move quickly. 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.240 One would assume that they think they're going to get 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.600 something good out of this in the form of intelligence 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.200 on other members of the Oathkeepers, or maybe somebody who 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:42.840 can just kind of explain on a broader level how 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.560 the militia works, UM, which could could help prosecutors buildicate. 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.280 So he was not among that group of oath Keepers 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.760 who were in some kind of formation and they each 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.720 had their hand on the shoulder of the one in 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.600 front of them. No, he was not. He was not 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.359 part of that kind of military style formation that stormed 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.760 the capital. He was charged separately from that group. Do 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:10.760 you know how many conspiracy cases have been charged? UM? 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.760 I can't remember the exact number of conspiracy cases, but 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:17.679 the biggest case to have emerged from the investigation is 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.400 the twelve those Keepers who have been charged in Washington 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.639 with a conspiracy to lacey each to the Capitol. UM. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:27.879 A group of Proud Boys has also been charged in 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.560 a smaller conspiracy case. UM. And those are kind of 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:35.880 the two sort of central cases UM that has kind 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.760 of risen to the surface in the investigation so far. 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.960 Do you know what charges are being considered, what the 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:47.560 most serious charges being considered are, and so there's you know, 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.040 a conspiracy charges is very serious. Um, there's also talk 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.119 of potential sedition charges, which is a kind of not 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.560 quite unprecedented, but a very rare type of charge level 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.880 against anybody and UM that would care area long sentence, 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.200 I can't. I think I think about ten years. And 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:05.280 so those are those are the sorts of kind of 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.359 surious accusations that some of these rioters you're facing, I 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.960 mean all the some are being charged with assaulting police officers, 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.640 which is serious. You know, there's been there are two 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.440 people who were charged with assaulting officers, including the officer 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.440 Bryan Sickniks, who later died of injuries that he sustained 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.920 at the capital. And it's possible that those two men 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.560 could face selling the murder charges at some point, which 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.919 should obviously be very serious. That's basically the spectrum. The 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.280 most common charges are things like obstruction of an official proceeding, 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:34.879 which is something that Schafer pled guilty to, you know, 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.600 disorderly conduct, you know, entering official grounds that permission, that 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.159 sort of thing. But then a level up from that 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:44.760 you have conspiracy, potential tradition charges we haven't seen yet, 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.960 you know, Selny murder in that one case, assaulting officers 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.639 in other cases. So that's basically the spectrum. At the 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.080 beginning of this, there was more talk and people knew 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:59.360 more about the Proud Boys than the oath Keepers. Does 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.879 it seem as if that has sort of changed and 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.880 the oath Keepers have emerged as the more dangerous if 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.439 you will group, Well, I don't. I don't think we 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:10.240 need to, you know, parse between the two of them. 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.959 I mean, prosecutors have charged members of both groups. If 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.439 you look at the numbers. Yes, more Oathkeepers have been 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:17.640 charged and the Proud Boys, but it's not by some 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.600 ridiculous margins. And Proud Boys have been charged with conspiring 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.680 to ride at the Capitol as well. Um, so really 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.479 both groups have been have been targeted. Though you're right, 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:31.840 certainly the case the Oathkeepers were less known beforehand. Um, 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.119 they just hadn't gotten as much publicity. The other thing 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.720 that's worth remembering is we're still a relatively earlier looks 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.919 likely to be a year's long investigation. There could be 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.240 cases that prosecutors are building that we don't know about yet. 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:49.160 It could be that the Proud Boice conspiracy case ends 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.360 up becoming bigger than the Oathkeepers conspiracy case, as more 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:57.520 descendants are added as the investigation progresses. Even though it 0:20:57.560 --> 0:20:59.320 feels like this has been going on for a long 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:01.480 time and have as it's been going on for months, 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:03.720 we've only just gotten out of the stage where the 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.000 prosecutors are really just taking down will hang fruit. We're 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.159 now getting into the sick of the kind of longer 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:13.879 term investigations, sort of utilizing a more complex law enforcement 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:16.720 tools that are going to take you know, potentially months 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.720 and months as Justice Department trying to get to the 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.359 bottom of what happened. When the government told the court 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.679 that they were pursuing this plea deal, they wrote that 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.800 plea terms have required extensive review and approval at various 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:34.840 levels of government. I thought it was interesting because that 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.160 must be true of all cases. But do you think 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.199 that there's more review going on than normal? Yeah, I 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.560 think there certainly is. I mean, this is a politically 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:46.320 sensitive investigation, you know, it's it's one of the central 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:50.960 priorities of you know, Merrick Garland's tenure at the Justice Department, 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.639 and so it you know, it stands to reason that 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.800 the first plea deal to emerge from this massively important 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:02.159 investigation would see more scrutiny than just a run of 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:05.800 the mill plea deal involving somebody who's committed of, you know, 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.399 a less public crime. Do you have any sense of 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.520 who the government will deal with and who they won't 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.480 deal with. I'm wondering if there is just some people 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.840 that they won't deal with. Yeah, I mean, it depends 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.200 on it depends on what the people have been accused of. 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.680 You know, they're unlikely to cut a super nice deal 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.440 with the very top person with the othkeepers who they 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:31.480 think was, you know, behind the orchestration of the riot, 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:35.800 because you know that's the person who they want to target. UM. 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:37.479 And you know, you can almost think of this as 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:42.800 like an organized crime investigation where they flip people lower 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.040