1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In It's Saturday, 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: time for a vault episode. This classic episode of Stuff 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind originally aired August one, and it's 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: our Ship of Theseus episode. Yeah, this one's This one 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: is a lot of fun, Like this one gets to 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: It's essentially grounded in a thought experiment, A very old 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: thought experiment, but one that remains interesting, especially when implied 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: when applied to things that that seemed hard to break 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: up into constituent parts like the like the self and 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: the mind. Yeah. Like here we are revisiting this episode. 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Uh you know what A what a year down the line, 13 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: a little over a year having replaced parts of our 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: bodies being slightly different people as we unveil it once more. 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 1: My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. And Robert, 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: I know you're not a big fan of air travel, 19 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: so I've got a I've got a question for you, 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: all right, if you wanted to go to, say somewhere 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: on the other side of the world. You wanted to 22 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: go to China or go to somewhere in Europe or something, 23 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: and you still hate air travel as much as you did, 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: And I offered you the chance to go there instantly 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: via a real life teleportation machine that would scan your 26 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: body and figure out where all the atoms are and 27 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: then rebuild you in a teleporter pod on the other 28 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: side of the globe wherever you wanted to go, and 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: you could be there instantly. Would you do it? Oh? 30 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: This is a fun one, right, because what happens to 31 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: my my old body is it just destroyed and it's 32 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: just incinerated on the spot. Well, in incinerated has such 33 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: negative vibes. I mean it's not incinerated, it is turned 34 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: into its atomic constituents, all right. And then I can't 35 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: just keep both though, I can't double sleep and have 36 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: have have one of me here in the States and 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: the end the other me is is in Asia somewhere. 38 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. That seems like it would lead to 39 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: bad sci fi action movie scenarios where one of you 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: must eliminate the other on the commands of the moon King. Well, 41 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's tempting still just to to cut 42 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: out all of that air travel, because air travel can 43 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: be taxing, it can be exhausting. Um and yet at 44 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: the same time, by virtue of being taxing and exhausting, 45 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: I'm never quite the same person when I reached the 46 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: other end of that flight, especially if it's a long flight, right, 47 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: because I may enter into the flight being like a 48 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: little anxious, but maybe on some level like looking you know, 49 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: looking forward to that you know, long period in which 50 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: I can just listen to music and read. And then 51 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: on the other side, then I am I'm potentially tired. 52 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: I'm potentially you know, blust out from you know Xenix 53 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: and Steve Roach albums, um, you know, three hours plus. 54 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: But I'm not quite the same person, right, I'm I've 55 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: changed a little bit, so I might as well be 56 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: this teleported other self. That is, that is a diversion 57 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: from who I am now. I don't know, when you 58 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: get to the end of a flight, even if it's 59 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: been unpleasant, do you really have the sensation that you 60 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: have died? Uh, it depends I guess how much turbulence 61 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: I have to endure. I mean, that's always the question 62 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: about the teleporter machine, right, I mean, it's the question 63 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: that everybody had to start wondering about Star Trek. I guess. 64 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: I guess there was probably a blissful period early in 65 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: Star Trek history where nobody wondered if the teleporter machines 66 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: killed you, But pretty soon people had to catch on, Right, 67 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 1: is it just is it just killing you and then 68 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: making a copy of you somewhere else that will continue 69 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: with your behaviors, but your life ends when you step in. Yeah, 70 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: And it's just everyone's gotten to the point where they're 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: cool with it. They just don't think about it. Then 72 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: they just step into the teleporter and let's suite annihilation 73 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: wash over them. I'm just I'm ready to die, make 74 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: a copy of me somewhere. I don't know, it does 75 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: seemed like people would be like that. I mean, most 76 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: of the time, people have the sensation that their experiences 77 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: are continuous and they want it to continue to be continuous. 78 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: I guess in track, as long as there's not an afterlife, 79 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: you're good, right, So just never know, it's just blind 80 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: leap of faith, right, And of course, I mean we have, 81 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: as we've talked about on the show before, we have 82 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: no idea how the say the baton of consciousness is 83 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: handed off from past self to present self, to future self, 84 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: and from one moment to the next. I mean, maybe 85 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: maybe it's the case that every time you go under 86 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: general anesthesia, you die, and then a different person wakes 87 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: up with all of your thoughts and memories. Maybe you 88 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: are the copy that woke up after the last time 89 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: you went under anesthesia. Maybe that happens every time you 90 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: fall asleep. You'd really have no way to know. Yeah, 91 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: that that is certainly a point when the curtain drops 92 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: and who who knows exactly what's going on with the set, right, 93 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: or at least what's going on with the set is 94 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: is very much an area of interest to uh, to 95 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: scientists who study consciousness. Now here's another question for you, Joe. 96 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: What if you were able to get ahold of a 97 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: time machine. I'm not talking some sort of a realistic, uh, 98 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: you know, time machine like we've talked about discussing, you know, 99 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: black holes and whatnot. I'm talking to a causality wrecking 100 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: Hollywood time machine, travel to the past machine, time cop 101 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: travel to the past machine. That is rough. So if 102 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: if I were to go back in time and meet 103 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: a younger me, is that younger me really me? Is 104 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: this to means? Because the younger means not physically identical 105 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: to me, it's mind and personality isn't identical to me. 106 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: So if if a Jean Claude van Damme were to 107 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: spin kick me into my past self, would I even 108 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: melt into a screaming pilot jelly? Well no, I don't 109 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: think so, because I don't think travel into the past 110 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: as possible. But even if it were possible, I assume 111 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: that if you went into the past, you would just 112 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: be like another person, like an identical twin, And identical 113 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: twins don't melt each other into jelly when they collide, 114 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: at least at least as far as I know, I 115 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: don't know. We've never seen it happen. Now we have 116 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: a lot of wonderful of science fiction to utilize when 117 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: we we tackle these these questions of identity and self 118 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: and change, But they haven't always been around. In the 119 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: old days. You had to do depend on listen more 120 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: traditional stories uh and myths for your your thought experiments. 121 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: And in fact, one of the oldest thought experiments is 122 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: that we had that we have is uh is very 123 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: much in this vein the ship of theseus the ship 124 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: of theseus. Right. So this is one of the most 125 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: classic paradoxes in the history of philosophy. And it also 126 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: goes to a thing that I think, for some reason, 127 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: it seems the Greeks were particularly interested in, which was 128 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: the nature and identity of things? I mean, of course, 129 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: the nature and identity of things is always a topic 130 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: for philosophers to investigate, but the ancient Greek philosophers seemed 131 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: really concerned with what made a thing itself? What were 132 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: the properties or the essences of a thing that gave 133 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: it its identity? How did you know that you were 134 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: really Robert? How did you Robert know that you earned 135 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: that you had the merit of being called Robert? Why 136 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: why wasn't something else Robert? And so they had these 137 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: ideas of essences and forms and all this stuff is 138 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: deeply concerned with what makes something itself and when you 139 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: can call it what it is? You know, this makes 140 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: up an interesting side question here. Do you think of 141 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: yourself as Joe? That's a good question, and there are 142 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: actually a couple of ways to answer it. I mean, 143 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: I would say in when I step back and think 144 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: of myself, I do I guess I think of myself 145 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: as Joe, as a self. You know, there's some there's 146 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: some soul Joe out there that is the core of 147 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: who I think I am and my main qualities and 148 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: all that. And of course you're not always the best 149 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: judge of yourself, so other people could probably describe that 150 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: person better than I could. But there's there's another sense 151 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,119 Speaker 1: of how you think of yourself in which I don't 152 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: think I think of myself as Joe moment to moment. 153 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: I think of myself as the most recent contents of 154 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: my consciousness. So I'm just a moment to moment. I'm 155 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: not Joe. Moment to moment, I am whatever I'm thinking about. 156 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: That's a good way of putting it. Well. When I 157 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: try and answer the question myself, I think, well, I'm not. 158 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: I don't only think of myself as Robert. I think 159 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: of myself kind of as the me. You know, I'm 160 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: just I'm just this I in in a given scenario. 161 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: Unless I am like you're you're saying essentially becoming the 162 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: thoughts that I am having. And then I'm even further 163 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: away from this. When I when I'm forced to think 164 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: of myself as Robert, it is because Uh, the external 165 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: world is is making me do it, because that is 166 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: what they call me, and that is what I continue 167 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: to be called because I just, I guess, don't feel 168 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: passionately enough about it to change it. Well, one of 169 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: the reasons we wanted to talk about the idea of 170 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: identity in the Ship of Theseus is that the external 171 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: world is increasingly going to be forcing us to think 172 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: about questions like this because of new technological capabilities that 173 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: are coming online. So this has yet another conversation that 174 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: we're having, sort of in the wake of a conversation 175 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: you saw in New York this year at the World 176 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: Science Festival. But this is a great topic that's worth 177 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: exploring from the bottom up. So I say we go 178 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: all the way back to Theseus and then work our 179 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: way to the technological and scientific questions. All right, well, 180 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: let's start with theseus. Then, who was a gimme Theseus? 181 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: He's essentially the flash Gordon of mythology. You know, he's 182 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: always the most important, but the least interesting character in 183 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: a given story. That's my initial response anyway. But he 184 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: also went into the maze and fought the minotaur. Right, yeah, 185 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: not only thought the menotor, but but what is he 186 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 1: is the slayer of the minotaur, solver of the Manillan 187 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: maze as well. Solver. That's the corporate speak idea, right, 188 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: he didn't slay the minotaur. He solved that problem, right, 189 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: He was able to execute on on his strategy. Yes, 190 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: but then he also escaped from the maze right by 191 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: by virtue of string if I remember, Oh, that's right. Yeah, 192 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: that's a good part, because it's one thing to kill 193 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: the minotaur. I mean, that's pretty impressive in on itself, 194 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: but you still have to find your way out of 195 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: the Manoan maze. How many minimally counterintuitive elements does the 196 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: story of theseus and the minotaur have? Well, we have 197 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: the minotaur for starters? Is that it is that the 198 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: only part? Well the maze I suppose I suppose there 199 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: could be a real maze or is there something magic 200 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: about the maze? Well, that's kind of the if I'm 201 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: remembering correctly from past episode on on mazes and labyrinths 202 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: um one of the things about the maze is that 203 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: depends on depends on which telling you're looking at. If 204 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: you go back far enough, it's less of a maze. 205 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: It could be something else, something less extravagant. But as 206 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: the tradition builds, the maze becomes this, this fabulous, fabulous 207 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: dungeons and dragons dungeon scenario, you know, which I love. 208 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: But but I guess that's always something to keep in 209 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: mind with with these tales, is this not it fits 210 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: in with what we're talking about here today. Mythological story 211 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 1: is not this one thing that hasn't passed on. It 212 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: is a thing that is built upon on a thing 213 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: that changes over time. Ah well, well, that brings us 214 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: to the central concept, right the ship of Theseus, so 215 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: to quote from Plutarch in his his Lives, he wrote 216 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: you about the lives of illustrious men, And so Plutarch wrote, quote, 217 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: the ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned, 218 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down 219 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: even to the time of Demetrius. Hilarious, for they took 220 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new 221 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: and stronger timber in their place. Insomuch that this ship 222 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: became a standing example among the philosophers for the logical 223 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: questions of things that grow. One side holding that the 224 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: ship remained the same and the other contending that it 225 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: was not the same. So there's your classic dilemma on 226 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: the Ship of Theseus. They have a ship. The ship, 227 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: of course, like all ships, rots and falls away over time, 228 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: so you've got to replace parts of it. Now, if 229 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: you maintain this ship for so long that you've eventually 230 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: replaced every original board in the ship and no original 231 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: parts remain, is it the same ship? Is it still 232 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: the Ship of Theseus? Or has it become something else? Yeah, 233 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: the hokey version of this is, or the hokey variant 234 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: is is Grandfather's Acts, which imagine a number of our 235 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: listeners have heard as well, why is this hokey? It's 236 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: just it's like it only has two parts to it, Like, 237 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: there's so the Grandfather's Acts as the idea. Hey, here's 238 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: Grandfather's Acts. But the handle rotted away. We had to 239 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: replace that, and then also the blade brokes we had 240 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: to replace that. Both parts of this two part tool 241 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: have been replaced. How can it possibly be Grandfather's Acts? Well, actually, 242 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: don't think that's a hokey example, because I think that 243 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: kind of thing really comes through when when you think 244 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: about say, artifacts in the museum, A lot of historical 245 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: artifacts in a museum are not going to be exactly 246 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: the same material constituents as when the artifact was first forged, 247 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: or especially a lot of like things that are not 248 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: so much an artifact you can pick up in your hand, 249 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: but like buildings and installations, a lot of these things 250 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: have been restored long ago in history. So you might 251 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: see a thing in a museum that at some point 252 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: somebody replaced parts of long ago. So are you seeing 253 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: the real original thing? Yeah? You know, this makes me 254 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: think of the Parthenon, which of course is in ruins 255 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 1: and has been in ruins for a little while. Now 256 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: should we rebuild it exactly? But if you rebuild it, 257 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: then yes, you make it look like the thing that 258 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: once was. But then, like you think, the thing that 259 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 1: wants to think that think, and then you have to 260 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: choose which era you want to recreate. You know, there's 261 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: certain eras that they're certainly not talking about recreating. But 262 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: but then, yeah, once you've restored it, then you also 263 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: lose the the iconic ruins that exist today that then 264 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: in that in a way are more i guess you 265 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: could say, honest reminder of what was there before. Well, 266 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: in a way also the ruins are part of what 267 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: the Parthenon is is. I mean, the Parthenon is a 268 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: thing that exists over time, and if you take away 269 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: the ruins, you have in a way destroyed the Parthenon, 270 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: even if you take them away to rebuild it. I 271 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: think of that. It makes me think of the Colossi 272 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: of Memnon. We discuss which to remind everybody, these were 273 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: These were a pair of of ancient coloss i. One 274 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: of them fell over in ancient times. But then what's 275 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: also restored poorly in ancient times? Uh so what do 276 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: you do? Do you get up you decide one day 277 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: that you're just gonna restore them both to how they 278 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: may have once looked? Do you restore them both to 279 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: the ruins? I mean there are these are all a 280 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: part of the essentially the life cycle of these statues 281 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: over time. Yeah, so this question is actually meaningful. If 282 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: you want people to be able to experience history, what 283 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: is the thing that gives them the most authentic experience 284 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: of history? Is it the decayed version as it stands 285 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: or is it a restored version? And the same thing 286 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: is true of the ship. If you want people to 287 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: be able to see the ship of theseus because it 288 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: has this great historical significance. Do you replace the rotting 289 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: parts or do you just let it rot? And if 290 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: you just let it rot, does it eventually disappear? Of 291 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: course it does. I think that's one of the reasons 292 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: I like the Ship of Theseus more than I care 293 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: for a grandfather's acts, because it's more gradual. There's so 294 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: many more parts involved. There's more of a question of 295 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: at what point, uh, you know, is it more new 296 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: than old? At which point in this gradual process does 297 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: its lot? Does it lose its identity? Yeah? I see 298 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: what you're saying. It's sort of incorporates the paradox of 299 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: the heap into the question of whether a thing that 300 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: is replaced in the same way as the original thing, 301 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: because you're you're you're asking is there a transition point? 302 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: At what point is you know, if fifty percent of 303 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: the mass of the ship has been replaced, now, is 304 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: it no longer the Ship of Theseus? Like it's a 305 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: dollar bill, you know, do you have more than half 306 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: of it to have it be worth a dollar? Yeah? 307 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: Like this this comes up some more scenario comes up 308 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: when we start thinking about species and does speed ceation? 309 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: At what point does this cease to be one species 310 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: and truly become a different species. Well, this just highlights 311 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: the idea, the fact that species is sort of an 312 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: artificial distinction. I mean, it has some utility for biologists, 313 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: but it's a species, not a thing you find in nature. 314 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: It's just sort of a useful concept, a useful concept 315 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: to describe something that is an ongoing process, which you know. Ultimately, 316 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: one of the questions who are asking here today is 317 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: to what extent can the same be said about identity? Now, 318 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: of course, lots of philosophers have explored the idea of 319 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: the ship of theseus. You know, philosophers get real worked 320 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: up about whether something is what it is. So Plato's 321 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: Cradlest Dialogue in some ways deals with this concept um 322 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: and Thomas Hobbes dealt with it too, right, that's right 323 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: English philosopher Thomas Hobbs, who have fifteen eight through sixteen 324 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: seventy nine. He added another and in my opinion, very 325 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: fun level of complexity to this thought experiment. He said, 326 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: what if you not only gradually replaced all of the 327 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: part of the ship of theseus, but what if you 328 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: also took all of those old parts and use them 329 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: to assemble an identical boat. So you took the rotting timber, 330 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: you replaced that with goodwood, and then you took the 331 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: rotting timber and made a new boat out of it. Right, 332 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: And at this point, which is the real ship? Now 333 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: one is remodeled, though other is reassembled. They're both the 334 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: same same ship, and yet clearly they are not the 335 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: same ship. That is a good variation. I've also heard 336 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: a variation of this where you like gradually steal some 337 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: sort of masterpiece a piece at a time and replace it. 338 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: So if you were just wanted to steal, to say, 339 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: the ship of Theseus from a museum, and you still 340 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: it piece by piece, you know, swapping out for a 341 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: counterfeit piece, then do you ultimately do what do you have? 342 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: Did you actually steal the whole ship or and replace 343 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: it with a counterfeit or is that still the ship 344 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: in there? I just got an awesome idea for yet 345 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: another remake of the Thomas Crown affair. They steal the 346 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: painting one centimeter at a time with razor lads. Yeah. Now, 347 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: and and you know another detail that's often thrown in 348 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: as did theseus ever actually stand foot on this ship? 349 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: That ends up playing into the identity of it. But 350 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: back to Thomas hop so yeah, he's he's saying, you 351 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: know what, have you took the old pieces and you 352 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: just reconstructed the ship. But if you you could take 353 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: that principle and extend it to other scenarios, less less 354 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: contrived ones. Yeah, yeah, I mean he he ends up 355 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: pondering this a bit more too. He says, wouldn't this 356 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: also mean that nothing can be the same? A man 357 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: standing would not be the same as he was when 358 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: he was sitting. Water in a vessel would be another 359 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: example of this. It's in the vessel and then you 360 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: pour it out. I mean, clearly it's the same water 361 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: or is it the same water? Based on on this question, 362 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: he says, quote, wherefore, the beginnings of individualization is not 363 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: always to be taken either from matter alone or from 364 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: form alone. And all this gets down to is this 365 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: idea of identity over time as opposed to identity in 366 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: a single moment, you know, whatever a single moment is. 367 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of philosophical thought on this topic, 368 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: more than we can possibly summarize in this episode. Well, yeah, 369 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: but I do think it's worth exploring the idea of 370 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: thinking about um maybe there. Maybe what these paradoxes are doing, 371 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: like the ship of theseus and Grandfather's acts and the 372 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: water in a vessel, is highlighting some fundamental flaw in 373 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: our metaphysics. It's showing you, hey, you're generating paradox is 374 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: because there's something wrong with the way you categorize things 375 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: in the world. It's the same way you might know 376 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with your physics theory if it's requiring 377 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: you to divide by zero or something. You know, something 378 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: went wrong somewhere along here. Well, it really feels more 379 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: and more like it's a situation where our metaphysics is 380 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: largely about figuring out real time events, like you know, 381 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: the soldier is running at me, what should I do 382 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: to avoid him? But then we we end up extrapolating 383 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: that via mental time travel and memory. We're taking it 384 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: into the future. We're taking it into the past, and 385 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: we're considering knees and hiss and situations that are not 386 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: identical to the present. That's a great point. But more 387 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: than that, what would it mean for a thing to 388 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: be identical to the present? I mean, is there such 389 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: a thing as an identical moment to the president or 390 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: the identity of a thing. Even so, I want to 391 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: talk about a cool article I saw. This was published 392 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: in aon magazine in November seventeen by Kelso vay Era, 393 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: and it's called which is more fundamental processes or Things? 394 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: And it's just a quick, nice little explainer on the 395 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: difference between what's known as substance metaphysics and process metaphysics. 396 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: Now metaphysics. Of course, it's just our attempt to understand 397 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: the most basic level of reality or existence. It's the 398 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: set of principles that's underneath physics. So physics, for example, 399 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: might be able to tell to you that a thing 400 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: is a certain mass and a certain velocity and so forth. 401 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: Metaphysics might ask what does it mean for a thing 402 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: to exist? Or what does it mean to have a 403 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: property like mass or velocity? What are properties? And so 404 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: to quote from Vora's article, quote, Western metaphysics tends to 405 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: rely on the paradigm of substances. We often see the 406 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: world as a world of things, composed of atomic molecules, 407 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: natural kinds, galaxies. Objects are the paradigmatic mode of existence, 408 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: the basic building blocks of the universe. What exists exists 409 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: as an object, That is to say, things are of 410 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: a certain kind, They have some specific qualities and well 411 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: defined spatial and temporal limits. And so you might use 412 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: the example of like a cat, your cat, Robert, Now, 413 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: your cat has existed for a certain amount of time. 414 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: It has certain features that you can list that describe 415 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 1: it physically, the color of its fur, the color of 416 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: its eyes. I don't know how much it likes to 417 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: jump up on the counter, how much it obeys you 418 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: when you tell you to do something. I don't know 419 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: how much cats ever do that. That's probably not part 420 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: of cat identity. Yeah, she's not much for obeying. But 421 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: ve Era argues that perhaps substance metaphysics is just not 422 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: the best way of thinking about the world, and it 423 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: actually leads to confusion and paradox And so he gives 424 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: this example of the question of the you know, you know, 425 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: the classic do you see this glass of water is 426 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: half empty or half full? But about that glass of water, 427 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: Veera writes, quote, but what if the isolated frame a 428 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: glass of water fails to give the relevant information? Anyone 429 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: would prefer an emptier glass that is getting full to 430 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: a fuller one getting empty. Any analysis lacking information about 431 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: change misses the point which is just what substance metaphysics 432 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: is missing. So he articulates the view of process philosophers, 433 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: people who believe that the fundamental constituents of reality are 434 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: not things but processes. It's not that a thing exists, 435 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: it's that a process is in a particular state at 436 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: a particular time. As the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead put it, 437 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: we should think of the world as a collect s 438 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: of occurrences instead of things. And this resonates with me 439 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: a lot. I actually think about this view fairly often, 440 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: especially when I'm reading about fundamental physics. But speaking of 441 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: the Greeks that I mean this also has a there's 442 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: a long tradition of this kind of thought. If you 443 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: go back to hero Clydas, who propounded the principle of 444 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: panta ray. Everything flows. Existence in a way is like 445 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: a river, and you can't step into the same river 446 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: twice for multiple reasons, not just because the water of 447 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: the river has flown past and and changed, but because 448 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: you've changed when you step into the river again. And 449 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: I think the important thing about this thing about process 450 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: metaphysics is that this doesn't have to change anything about 451 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: our understanding of the physical laws of nature, and as 452 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: far as far as I can tell, it's totally compatible 453 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: with them, and some would actually say more compatible with them. 454 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: It's also certainly more in keeping with our understanding of biology, 455 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 1: which tells us that they're not actually fixed kinds of 456 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: animals or plants or bacteria, but there's instead this process 457 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: of change over time, and that the change produces frequencies 458 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: of different alleles as its cycles through ever changing states. Yeah, 459 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: and then of course you also think about the various 460 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: chemical reactions that are are necessary, the various um, you know, 461 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: all the things that that that affect our mind stated 462 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: even any given point of the day, you know, when 463 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: we try and decide who we are, or essentially trying 464 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: to like pick out what is the ideal version of 465 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: me that they manifest at any given point in the 466 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: you know, the currently or in the near future or 467 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: the near past. Is it the you know, is it 468 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: the I haven't finished my second drink or I'm on 469 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: my second cup of coffee? You know me that that's 470 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: that's the only version that I'm going to account that 471 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: I'm going to count. What's the platonic form of Robert? 472 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: You're trying to seek out some ideal form of yourself 473 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: that you've created as an abstraction that doesn't actually match 474 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: who you are or what you're doing at any given 475 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: moment in time. In fact, try to think of an 476 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: object that you can identify that has an identity that 477 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: does not fundamentally change its former nature over time. A 478 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: seed turns into a sapling, and then into a tree, 479 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: and then it dies, and then it rots and goes 480 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: into the ground. And this is the case of every 481 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: biological thing you can think of. But then, of course, 482 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: on a longer time scale, other things are like that, stars, asteroids, planets, 483 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: black holes. You know, things change over time. Even even 484 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: black holes evaporate over time. You've got hawking radiation. Well, 485 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: just I think too about the very stones that we 486 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: build our monuments and our grave stones out off. We 487 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: build things out of stone because it makes them more permanent. 488 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: You know that that that it will live on after 489 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: we're gone. And that's true. These things tend to exist 490 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: on a scale that goes beyond the limits of of 491 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: our biology, of pure mortal existence. And yet at the 492 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: same time we change the stone to make it into 493 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: the graves gravestone, and any walk through the cemetery will 494 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: remind you that these things to fade uh and and 495 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: and are eroded or are shattered when when tree limbs 496 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: fall upon them. Uh so yeah, everything spoiler, everything changes. 497 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: It's great to walk backwards through time in a cemetery, 498 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: to start with the fresher graves that have the pristine stones, 499 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: and then walk back through time to the older and 500 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: older graves, which often they tend to just disappear into 501 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: the ground. They turn into nubs. You can't read what's 502 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: on them anymore. There there there will maybe be just 503 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: a kind of rock marker and that's it. Yeah. And 504 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: then the sun starts going down and the ghouls come, 505 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: and then you realize you've really been wandering in the 506 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: graveyard too long and you have changed into a delicious meal. 507 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: Uh No, I guess the ghouls prefer grave flesh, don't 508 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: they do? They eat live people, you know, it depends 509 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: on the interpretation, but the stories I like, I think 510 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: the ghouls will go for a live meal if they 511 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: can get it, you know, especially if it's somebody that 512 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: has become lost in the cemetery. And uh and the 513 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: sun is setting. It's like the kid who per furs 514 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: chicken McNuggets but will if they're forced to eat a delicious, 515 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: fresh cooked me a lot of produce and all that. 516 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, so I was trying to think of an 517 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: example of a counter example, right, is there something that 518 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: doesn't change over time? And I was like, well, you know, 519 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: you've got maybe fundamental elementary particles. They don't really they 520 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: don't have characteristics, they're all identical, they're interchangeable. Maybe they 521 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: don't change over time. But thinking back to the entire 522 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: history of the universe, that's not actually true. Like during 523 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,959 Speaker 1: the Plank Epoch at the beginning of time, as far 524 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: as we know in the local universe, quarks and electrons 525 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: hadn't been formed yet. This is a time of hot 526 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: condensed energy when we did not have quarks, and then 527 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: later you get quark glue on plasma and all that. 528 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: But so, I don't know, I don't know if you 529 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: can actually think of a thing that is an object 530 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: that has never changed and will never change. Even in 531 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: mythology and religion, you're often hard pressed to find that 532 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: one constant that doesn't change. I think probably, I guess 533 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: if you if you look at you know, Monotheistic Judeo 534 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: christian Um and Islamic interpretations of God. Then you have 535 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: something that is supposedly unchanging over time from the very 536 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: beginning to the very end. But in it's like most 537 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,959 Speaker 1: other religions and cosmologies. You know, God's beget begot, God's 538 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: and and then they all have these essentially life cycles 539 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: that they're going through. Well, I would say even the 540 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: fact that monotheistic gods enter into narratives makes them not 541 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: exactly unchanging. You can't tell a narrative about something that 542 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: doesn't change. If it enters into a new covenant with 543 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: with humanity, then that's hopefully a change. Hopefully there was 544 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: some change in uh, in attitude there that we can 545 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: view as positive. I'm sure there are a million ways 546 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: of splitting that theological hair, but uh, but anyway to 547 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: come back to the idea of process philosophy, process metaphysics, 548 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: thinking of things not as objects. This is not a 549 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: world of things, but a world of processes going through changes. 550 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: How how should this change the way we think about 551 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: the ship of theseus, so Vieira writes. To explain why 552 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: things change without losing their identity substance, philosophers need deposit 553 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 1: some underlying core, an essence that remains the same throughout change. 554 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: It is not easy to pin down what this core 555 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: might be. As the paradox of theseus ship illustrates, and 556 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: then he explains the ship as we already have. But 557 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: he writes, is this the same ship even though materially 558 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: it is completely different? For substance philosophers, this is something 559 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: of a paradox. For process philosophers, this is a necessary 560 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: part of identity. Of course, it is the same ship. 561 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: Identity ceases to be a static equivalence of a thing 562 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: with itself. After all, without the repairs, the ship would 563 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: have lost its functionality. It would have become a ruin 564 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: or a shipwreck. Well, it just wouldn't be a ship anymore. Yeah, 565 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: uh so Yeah, ships change, parts get replaced, and that's 566 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: part of the process of the ship. There is no 567 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: thing ship. Ship is. A ship is an ongoing process 568 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: of change, just like you and me are. And Naviera 569 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: defends against the idea that processes are just transitions between 570 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: different fundamental substance realities by pointing out one thing we 571 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: mentioned a little bit earlier than the paradox of the heap. 572 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: Uh if you've never read about this before, the paradox 573 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: of the heap basically says, okay, you've got a heap 574 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: of sand. Now you remove one grain of sand at 575 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: a time, and every time you remove a grain of sand, 576 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: you ask is it still a heap of sand? And 577 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: at some point you will only have one grain of 578 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: sand left. That's obviously not a heap. But you can't 579 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: point to a moment where suddenly the heap was not 580 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: a heap anymore. The same thing happens with biological entities 581 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: and evolution. One of the great images that are Richard 582 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: Dawkins is used in explaining the history of an organism 583 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: is try to imagine your ancestors going all the way 584 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: back down the generations, where you hold hands with your mother, 585 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: and then your mother holds hands with her mother, and 586 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: it goes back like that forever. At what point, where 587 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: will you find the moment where mother gave birth to 588 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: a daughter of a different species than her. It will 589 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: never happen every At every point, the mother was giving 590 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: birth to something that was pretty much the same animal 591 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: she was. But these changes accumulate over time, and you 592 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: can't if you zoom in, you'll never see the change. 593 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: I mean, at some point, the thumb is no longer opposable. 594 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: I guess that that might play a role. Well, but 595 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: it's not going to be a transition from opposable to 596 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: not opposable. It'll be it'll be a gradual transition. That's 597 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: something that maybe is not even noticeably less opposable, but 598 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: does just slightly less and eventually it just becomes a 599 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: fist bump. Oh, there you go. Can't hold hands anymore, 600 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: You just fist bumping mom all the way back to 601 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: the protozoa. But that can't be right, right, because the 602 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: fist bump is the thing you arrive at, not a 603 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: thing you came from. Fist bump is the future. But well, 604 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: but who's to say. Who's to say that the fist 605 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: bump wasn't the predominant mode of greeting in among archaic humans. 606 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: They might have even done the explosion, who knows, Yeah, 607 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: or the snail. That's what all those hands on the 608 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: cave walls are the explosion. Alright, On that note, we're 609 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break. But when we come back, 610 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: we will summon the swampman. Than all right, we're back. 611 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about the ship of DC. Is 612 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: the question of what determines the identity of a thing. 613 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: If you take a ship and you replace all of 614 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: its parts over many years, is it still the same 615 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: ship even if no original part of that ship remains. 616 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: And one of the ways that this becomes actually relevant 617 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: to the real world is when we start thinking about minds, right, 618 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: because we have this thing we call experience, the experience 619 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: of experience, and you have the sensation that your experience 620 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: is continuous, or at least I have that sensation. I 621 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: assume everybody else does. Everybody else acts like they do, 622 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: and like they want their experience to be a unified 623 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: part of this continuous, ongoing thing that is identifiable as itself. 624 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: You don't want to suddenly be somebody else who is 625 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: no longer you. Those certainly people do have, and this 626 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: becomes a question, like, to what extent do they legitimately 627 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: have this moment of just profound change in their life, 628 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: you know, at a moment of revelation or salvation, you know, 629 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: a road to damask this kind of thing. To what 630 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: extent is it a true change or is it a 631 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: or are we like forcing the change upon ourselves. We're 632 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: saying that we changed, but on on some other level, 633 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: we're still thinking of ourselves as a continuous movement. Well, 634 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: even then, people tend to put the value of their 635 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: change in terms of themselves relative to who they used 636 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: to be. So if you have had this road to 637 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: Damascus moment where you know, I'm a different person now 638 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: and I'm so glad I am, you tend to think 639 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: of that as being valuable relative to whatever kind of 640 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: creepy were before, right, I mean, any if you have 641 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: a good redemption story, you've got to get into what 642 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: what came first. Yeah. And also if every personal change 643 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: or improvement for the better was like the Artrek teleporter 644 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: that just kills you and makes a newer, better copy 645 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: of you, would people really go for it? I don't know. Yeah, 646 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of like, you know, occasionally there'll be a 647 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 1: story where somebody, like generally they've read a book or something, 648 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: but they've made this phenomenal change that used to be 649 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: a terrible person and now they're a good person, and 650 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: they're out there preaching the word about how everyone should 651 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: be a good person too. And it makes you think 652 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: at times, well, I was never a terrible person. How come? 653 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: How come Terry Gross isn't talking to me? You're the 654 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: brother in the prodigal Son story exactly. I never This 655 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: isn't fair. Yeah, I was good the whole time. Where's 656 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: my uh, where's my celebration? Ain't that life where jealous 657 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: creatures aren't? But anyway, so, yeah, we we need to 658 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: talk about the swampman, Robers. We've put the swampman off 659 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: for far too long. So the swampman is a variation 660 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: on the ship of theseus idea applied to the human mind. 661 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: And this is originally a concept that was introduced by 662 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: the philosopher Donald Davidson in a presentation called Knowing One's 663 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: Own Mind, originally, I think in the Proceedings and Addresses 664 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: of the American Philosophical Association. The version I found was 665 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: reprinted in the American Philosophical Association's Centennial series from but 666 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: the original one was back in the eighties seven, and 667 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: so Donald Davidson was raising this question, what is the 668 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 1: relationship between the identity of a thing in the history 669 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: of that thing. Are you ready to go to the swamp, Robert, 670 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: let's to the swamp? Okay, Davidson says, suppose lightning strikes 671 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: a dead tree in a swamp. I am standing nearby. 672 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: My body is reduced to its elements, while entirely by 673 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: coincidence and out of different molecules, the tree is turned 674 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: into my physical replica. My replica, the swamp Man, moves 675 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 1: exactly as I did, according to its nature. It departs 676 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: the swamp encounters and seems to recognize my friends and 677 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: appears to return their greetings in English. It moves into 678 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: my house and seems to write articles on radical interpretation. 679 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: And no one can tell the difference. But there is 680 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: a difference. My replica can't recognize my friends. It can't 681 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,720 Speaker 1: recognize anything, since it never cognized anything in the first place. 682 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: It can't know my friends names, though of course it 683 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: seems to. It can't remember my house. It can't mean 684 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: what I do by the word house, for example, since 685 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: the sound house it makes was not learned in the 686 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,439 Speaker 1: context that would give it the right meaning, or any 687 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: meaning at all. Indeed, I don't see how my replica 688 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: can be said to mean anything by the sounds it makes, 689 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: nor to have any thoughts. It's a nice creepy little tale. 690 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: Uh that is summoning. Uh. You know memories of the 691 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: philosophical zombies that we've discussed, the p zombies. Well, yeah, 692 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: so it's the question with the p zombies is it's 693 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: assumed in the P zombie thought experiment that that they 694 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: behave exactly like humans, except they're not conscious. I guess 695 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: Davidson's asking the question of can thing that behaves exactly 696 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: like a normal person but has no prior experiences actually 697 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: be having thoughts, actually be uh speaking meaningful sentences if 698 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: it's just randomly producing phenomena identical to what a person 699 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: would produce if they arrived at those behaviors by the 700 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: normal means. And so to be clear, if we if 701 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: we follow through with this, if we really imagine what 702 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: he's saying, a perfect Adam for Adam copy of you 703 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: would be externally indistinguishable from you, and would presumably behave 704 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 1: exactly like the original you. There's nothing we know of 705 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 1: that would make it behave differently, but it would not 706 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: exist in a context in which its behavior would have 707 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: any meaning. It might have a long heartfelt conversation with 708 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: a close friend of yours, and it would behave exactly 709 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: like you would and say the exact same things the 710 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: original You would have said in that conversation, but it 711 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: in fact would never have met this friend before. So 712 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: does the swamp Creature. I have a relationship with your friend. 713 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: Does the swamp creature know the friend? And for the 714 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: same reason, does the swamp creature know anything? Now, I 715 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: know we have some comic book fans out there who 716 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: might think, hey, this sounds a little bit familiar, because 717 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: this is exactly the way that Alec Holland becomes swamp 718 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: Thing in Alan Moore's amazing run with the swamp Thing comic. 719 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: Huh um. Actually went back and read this again. The 720 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: very first issue, I guess you'd say this is is 721 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: titled The Anatomy Lesson. It's from February. Yeah, I haven't 722 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: read it. Actually, I feel bad because Christian once gave 723 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: me a huge stack of comics to read that did 724 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: include a run of Swamp Thing. I'm sure it was Moore's, 725 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: but I never made it to that one though. I 726 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: did read All Star Superman, which was great and I 727 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 1: think sort of lightly brushed against some of the same 728 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: philosophical questions about the identity of a person through time 729 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: travel and all that. But I gotta read swamp Thing now. 730 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's It's definitely worth checking out. It's 731 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: probably been a decade since I read All of it, 732 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: but I did pick up the anatomy lesson and gave 733 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: it another read, and it is indeed wonderful. This is 734 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: the one that originally hooked me when I when I 735 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 1: read it for the first time, and I wound up 736 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: spending way too much money at the time on all 737 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: of the Alan Moore swamp Thing books. Uh, none of 738 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: them disappointed. But this first story is just perfect. It's 739 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: a it's an intelligent little horror story that cast the very, 740 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: the very identity of swamp thing in a new light. 741 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: So he's not just Alc Holland, a man who is 742 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: mutated into a plant man following a science lab explosion 743 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: in the swamp. No is More describes it. The wonder 744 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: chemical here transforms the plants, and when Holland's burnt corpse 745 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: sinks into the swamp, the plants eat it and regrow 746 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: a body that believes itself to be Alc Holland. So 747 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: the organs don't work, the heart, lungs, brains, it's all 748 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: just vegetable manner that has form but no function. But 749 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: it believes it is Holland, and it is always believed 750 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: that it is Holland. And this is the only thing 751 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: that has kept the swamp Things saying this whole time. Well, 752 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: so this Davidson presentation, I believe is from the first 753 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: time he presented It was in seven, which is after this. 754 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: So I think it would have to be that Davidson 755 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: was inspired by swamp Thing and not the other way around. Yeah, 756 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: I think it might be the case. I did just 757 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,919 Speaker 1: a little bit of research on this, and I could 758 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: not find any definitive statements on inspiration here. But but 759 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: it seems like that would be the case, and I 760 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,439 Speaker 1: think that's great. I suppose we can only wait until 761 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: the leave extraordinary gentlemen show up in the philosophy journals. Now, well, 762 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: I would actually love to see um swamp Thing and 763 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: Swampman meet up. I think that sounds like exactly the 764 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: kind of thing that Alan Moore could return to rite 765 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: at some point. In fact, I'm a little surprised it 766 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: didn't happen, except Swampman would be completely indistinguishable from Donald Davidson, right, 767 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: so it would basically just be Donald Davidson meets swamp Thing, 768 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: except it's not the original Donald Davidson. I mean, it's 769 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: a weird thing to consider. I spend a while trying 770 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: to This is one of those weird kind of thought 771 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: experiments that pokes you and you have to sit there 772 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: for a while thinking like, wait a minute, is this 773 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: Is this truly illuminating or not? I mean, I was 774 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: like trying to decide and I still don't think I've 775 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: made up my mind. But it is strange. What does 776 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 1: it mean to have a thought? Because we typically believe 777 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: that a thought is about something, So say, for example, 778 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: you have the thought I do not like the smell 779 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: of hard boiled eggs. We consider it part of the 780 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: definition of this thought that you're aware of the existence 781 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: of hard boiled eggs and you have smelled them, or 782 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: at least you think you have, and you do not 783 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: like the smell. But if a being with an atom 784 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: for adom replica of your brain has that thought and 785 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: yet it has never smelled this smell, is it really 786 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,320 Speaker 1: having that thought? What is it doing with its brain? 787 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: You know, it would not be forming that thought from 788 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: information derived from sense experience. That thought when coming from 789 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: a being that's never seen any evidence of the existence 790 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: of hard boiled eggs, has never smelled them, hasn't ever 791 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: learned the words hard boiled eggs or the words smell. 792 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: The thought is just random behavior, no more significant than 793 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, a million pages of random numbers printed out 794 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: on paper. Now at the same time that I can't 795 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 1: help but think that, hey, I could develop a false 796 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: memory of, say, eating a hard boiled ostrich egg, which 797 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: I don't believe I have ever eaten. But if I but, 798 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: I can easily imagine where I might tweak my memory 799 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: into into thinking that I have. Likewise, what have I 800 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: read a very convincing passage in a novel in which 801 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 1: a character eats a hard boiled dragon egg. I have 802 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 1: no actual sense experience of that happening, But if it 803 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: was well written and had lots of detail and atmosphere, 804 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: then I could I could very well in a sense 805 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: experience it in my mind. I think it's fairly obvious 806 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: that that we humans spend a great deal of time 807 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: obsessing over memories that are at least flawed, even if 808 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: we're lucky enough to be free of memories that are 809 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: false entirely. And you're exactly right, I mean we have 810 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: we have false memories all the time, but they arise 811 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: within a context of semantics, right, I mean they arise 812 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: in a world where you know that you exist and 813 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 1: where words have meanings, and you've learned the meanings of 814 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: words like egg and like smell, and you know that 815 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: there is such a thing as smells. And I mean, 816 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: there's an entire structure that makes that false memory possible 817 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: and makes it feel meaningful. So, for instance, I I've 818 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: had a hard boiled egg, I have seen an ostrich 819 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: I've seen a picture of an ostrich egg. Yeah, I 820 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: can therefore extrapolate what it would be to eat one 821 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,919 Speaker 1: and then have the fuel to to build that false memory. Yeah. 822 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,760 Speaker 1: Now imagine you have a brain that generates that memory, 823 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 1: except it's never seen anything, and it's never learned any words, 824 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: and it's never had any of this experience. It just 825 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: happens to have the atomic structure of a brain that 826 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: has had all those experiences, and thus it behaves the 827 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: same way. It's like if I had to form a 828 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: false memory of smoking a clues pats like what, I 829 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: don't I don't know where I would begin to to 830 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,280 Speaker 1: assemble that memory exactly. So Yeah, that's what's at stake. 831 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: So I I've I've struggled with this thought experiment because 832 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's if it's making me feel 833 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: weird because it gets it something really fundamental, or because 834 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: it's one of those confusion machines that just like takes 835 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: our intuitions and churns up a bunch of confusion about 836 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 1: stuff that doesn't really matter. Yeah, I don't know. I 837 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: keep coming back to the idea that if swamp man 838 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: or even swamp thing, remember like, if he has these 839 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: memories of being this person, then yeah, those those those 840 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: memories arise from those memories, have we have internal context. 841 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: They're kind of like a software that that that that 842 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: that that he's carrying around with him. Yeah, and even 843 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: if he you know, even if it's just a copy 844 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: of the original software, it's still the software. Well, it's 845 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: kind of like if you imagined a software, a piece 846 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:03,320 Speaker 1: of software created by randomly generating characters to create lines 847 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: of code that would execute eventually, and so at some 848 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 1: point you could randomly create a piece of software that 849 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: does things. Could you call that software? Could you say 850 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: that it has a purpose, Could you say that it 851 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 1: has functions? Could you say that it uh that it executes? 852 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we don't think software is conscious. I 853 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 1: guess the question of whether the swampman would be conscious 854 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,760 Speaker 1: is a different kind of thing. Well, if if Swamman 855 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: goes home and and then and says hi to to 856 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: these friends, I feel like he's he's as human as 857 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: anybody else. Really, I think that would be Daniel Dennett's take. 858 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 1: So Dinnett has addressed the challenges and usefulness of this 859 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 1: thought experiment about Swampman, despite how popular it's been. Davidson 860 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: first offered it, I think in eight seven, and uh 861 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: though a lot of people have picked up on it 862 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: since then. Davidson apparently told Dnnett at some point that 863 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: he regretted introducing it because he believed it caused a 864 00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,160 Speaker 1: lot of unenlightening back and forth without proving much. So 865 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 1: then it's got a critique of this thought experiment. He says, 866 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of thought experiments basically try to 867 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,280 Speaker 1: function like science experiments, so you can coct a bizarre, 868 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: implausible scenario with the purpose of isolating a variable. You 869 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,800 Speaker 1: want to put something some particular variable. You want to 870 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: be able to turn one knob up to eleven and 871 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: control everything else, and you know, run everything else down 872 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: to zero, so that you can test your intuitions about 873 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: what happens and with changes in that variable alone, and 874 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 1: so the variable isolated in this thought experiment is the 875 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: history of an object such as a person. Right, you say, 876 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,240 Speaker 1: materially identical. Only thing that's different is how the atom's 877 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: got that way. And then you know, he admits that 878 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,360 Speaker 1: a lot of times thought experiments like this are really useful. 879 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: I think about how physicists like Einstein and Galileo and 880 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: Newton abuse thought experiments. Uh. They use intuitions and math 881 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: to determine fundamental facts about the laws of nature before 882 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: anybody had actually confirmed them with physical experiments. So thought experiment, 883 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: it's based on bizarre scenarios and intuitions, can be very powerful. 884 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 1: But other times thought experiments testing bizarre scenarios are are 885 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: just creating unnecessary confusion. And in his discussion of Swampman, 886 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 1: then it asks us to consider the cow shark. Robert, 887 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 1: have you ever seen a cow shark? I have not. Well, 888 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,879 Speaker 1: here here's how you know if you have. The cow 889 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: shark is created when a normal cow gives birth to 890 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,960 Speaker 1: an animal that is Adam, for Adam exactly like a 891 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: shark that you would find swimming in the ocean. Now, 892 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: is this newborn animal a cow or a shark? I'm 893 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,400 Speaker 1: gonna say it's a shark. It looks like a shark, 894 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,399 Speaker 1: if it swims like a shark, it's a shark. Even 895 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: if it came out of a cow. Oh, well, so 896 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: you got you're challenging some definitions, right, because some people 897 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: would say, well, white sharks are born to shark parents. 898 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,680 Speaker 1: Even if a shark looks kind of weird, it's still 899 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: a shark, right if it's parents were sharks. Well, that 900 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: kind of logic will get you eaten by a shark, 901 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm thinking. But then denn It adds another wrinkle. He says, Okay, well, 902 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,919 Speaker 1: let's say this shark is them for Adam, a shark, 903 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: but with the exception that it has cow DNA and 904 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: all of it cells. Now is it a cow or 905 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: a shark? It's a very peculiar shark, I would say, now, 906 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: dnn It asks this question with with the idea that 907 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,760 Speaker 1: if you ask this to a biologist, they would probably 908 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,959 Speaker 1: not think this was a very meaningful question, right, because 909 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,799 Speaker 1: in reality, a cow will never give birth to an 910 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,319 Speaker 1: animal in the perfect form of a shark that has 911 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: cow DNA and all of its cells. It's not logically impossible, 912 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: meaning it doesn't involve an inherent contradiction, but it's just 913 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 1: never ever going to happen in nature, and thus we 914 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: don't learn a lot about biology by testing our intuitions 915 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: about cows and sharks this way, because our intuitions about 916 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: biology have evolved to function in the world where this 917 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 1: never happens and never will happen. In other words, the 918 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,800 Speaker 1: very tools we're using to solve this puzzle of is 919 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,279 Speaker 1: it a cow is it a shark are shaped by 920 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 1: a world where this question will never arise because it 921 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,920 Speaker 1: is physically impossible. Now, you could come back and you 922 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,399 Speaker 1: could say, wait a minute, haven't we solved real world 923 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,360 Speaker 1: physics problems by creating physically impossible thought experiments things like 924 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,839 Speaker 1: a like a sleigh traveling at the speed of light 925 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: for relativity, or objects that fly through the air with 926 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 1: zero friction. And the answer is yes. But Dinnett says, 927 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 1: you know, those experiments involved much less of an uncontrolled 928 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 1: departure from reality than the cow, shark or the swampman. 929 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,239 Speaker 1: The physics experiments carefully name and limit their violations of 930 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,839 Speaker 1: reality so that you can take that violation and calibrated 931 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,719 Speaker 1: as part of the experiment, and then real world experiments 932 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: can be devised to test the conclusions of the thought 933 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,799 Speaker 1: experiments after you're done. Not so for cow shark and swampman. Really, 934 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,279 Speaker 1: you know, dinn It says, uh, there's sort of a 935 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,279 Speaker 1: general rule of thumb, and It's quote the utility of 936 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: a thought experiment is inversely proportional to the size of 937 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: its departures from reality. So he does not really seem 938 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 1: concerned with Davidson's worries about whether swampman can actually have 939 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,640 Speaker 1: thoughts or known the meanings of words, or even be 940 00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: a person, because swamp may is physically impossible in the 941 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,760 Speaker 1: context that we've developed words and concepts like thought and meaning. 942 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: In person, a person has thoughts which are derived from evolution, development, 943 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,440 Speaker 1: and experience, and a swampman does not exist within that context. 944 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,920 Speaker 1: So I'm curious when you think about Dennett's critique here. 945 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,799 Speaker 1: I think he makes a good point, but I'm gonna 946 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: have to come back on it. Well, I do feel 947 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 1: like there is this sense that some of some thought 948 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,560 Speaker 1: experiments are of course very useful, and then the further 949 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,440 Speaker 1: you you get, you kind of get into that territory 950 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,759 Speaker 1: of their fun. They're great to think about it, you know, 951 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,799 Speaker 1: It's like saying, oh, my hands can touch everything but themselves. Man, 952 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 1: you know they're it's it's great, but I know what 953 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,319 Speaker 1: my hand can touch itself. I'm poking my palm right now. 954 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,719 Speaker 1: Well maybe, but this is why this was that was 955 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,320 Speaker 1: from Futurama. I think with the one of the the 956 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 1: aliens eats a hippie and becomes high, and it's like, 957 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:59,200 Speaker 1: my hands can touch everything but themselves. Um So it's yeah, 958 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,440 Speaker 1: kind of a fall paradox. But you know, there's so 959 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,320 Speaker 1: many of these things that they I do. I do 960 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 1: kind of side within it here. It does feel like 961 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 1: some of the more extravagant thought experiments do get into 962 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: that area where it's not particularly useful, but it's fun. 963 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: It's more recreational. Right. Yeah, I think that's right. I 964 00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 1: mean I get what he's saying, and I think he's 965 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: exactly right that we should be careful not to draw 966 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:26,160 Speaker 1: conclusions by testing our intuitions on conditions that those intuitions 967 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,360 Speaker 1: are totally unsuited to evaluate. Here's a great example. I 968 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 1: bet you've heard people make arguments about the origin of 969 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 1: the universe based on an intuitive understanding of things like 970 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,239 Speaker 1: space and time. Right, you know, people argue about like 971 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,800 Speaker 1: what it means for the universe to begin or to 972 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 1: come into existence or something like that, based on what 973 00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 1: they think it means for like a meeting at the 974 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,640 Speaker 1: office to begin. It's just like our concepts are day 975 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,239 Speaker 1: to day concepts are not only unhelpful but directly confusing 976 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,320 Speaker 1: in that context. But I might take issue with Dennett's 977 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,359 Speaker 1: response because I would say we live in a world 978 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 1: where science and technology might be making versions of the 979 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:09,239 Speaker 1: Swampman experiment sort of replicable in reality. Maybe not making 980 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,440 Speaker 1: an atom for adom recreation of your entire body that 981 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 1: does seem fairly impossible, but by making something like a 982 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,160 Speaker 1: perfect copy of the processing functions of your individual brain, 983 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,040 Speaker 1: or say, gradually replacing parts of your brain ship of 984 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,560 Speaker 1: THESEUS style with a biotic computer hardware. And I want 985 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,800 Speaker 1: to be clear that I don't know this is possible. 986 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm pretty skeptical. I think Robert, you're also somewhat skeptical 987 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,200 Speaker 1: of the curse Wiley and hype about digital immortality and 988 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:37,600 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff that I think there's a 989 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,360 Speaker 1: lot of unanswered questions about that. That's some techno utopians 990 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,439 Speaker 1: take for granted, But I also can't rule it out, 991 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: so it may not be a sure thing that you 992 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 1: can replace your brain with a digital copy, or that 993 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,400 Speaker 1: you can replace parts of your brain one at a 994 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,040 Speaker 1: time with hardware. But it's not a swampman, and it's 995 00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 1: not a cow shark. It's a thing that I can't 996 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,000 Speaker 1: be sure we should rule out. So this is a 997 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,800 Speaker 1: question that it's entirely possible we could face in reality 998 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,719 Speaker 1: in the near technological future. All right, so let's take 999 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,560 Speaker 1: another break and when we come back we will discuss 1000 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 1: this a bit more. Alright, we're back, So before we 1001 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,000 Speaker 1: keep going, though, Joe, I do want to point out, um, 1002 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,680 Speaker 1: your So what you do when I said that, when 1003 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:22,920 Speaker 1: I quoted the Alien and Future rum and said that 1004 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,520 Speaker 1: the hand can touch everything but itself, you demonstrated your 1005 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,800 Speaker 1: hand touching itself, But actually your fingers were touching your palm. 1006 00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,319 Speaker 1: Was your hand actually touching your hand? Maybe there's more 1007 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,399 Speaker 1: weight to this, uh, this paradox than I thought. Well, 1008 00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: maybe there are no such things as hands. Is there 1009 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 1: a hand or is it just like a team upon 1010 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,920 Speaker 1: which you have fingers and palm playing? You know, that's 1011 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 1: another example that sometimes comes up for the ship of 1012 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: theseus a sports team them individual members change over time. 1013 00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 1: But we have this idea that the team itself is 1014 00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,560 Speaker 1: a thing that is consistent, even though sport teams are 1015 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,520 Speaker 1: are are generally anything. But you know they'll they'll be 1016 00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:05,960 Speaker 1: ups and downs. Uh uh. You know, they may have 1017 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,360 Speaker 1: a great year this year, but then who knows what 1018 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 1: next season will be like? Yes, definitely, this happens all 1019 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,320 Speaker 1: the time. Let's say you you like a company, you 1020 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,200 Speaker 1: want to invest in a company, but that company has 1021 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,480 Speaker 1: multiple rounds of like layoffs and new hires and all that, 1022 00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 1: so that none of the original people remain. And then 1023 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: say they change their branding and they get a new 1024 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 1: name for the company and all that, and they also 1025 00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,239 Speaker 1: end up changing their core business model so that they're 1026 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 1: doing something different than what they originally did. But you're 1027 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,080 Speaker 1: still investing in the company. I don't know why I 1028 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,040 Speaker 1: went to that. I'm not usually a big stocks guy. 1029 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: So this ship of theseus, as we've discussed it, it 1030 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,160 Speaker 1: reveals a lot about the nature of change and this 1031 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,640 Speaker 1: elusive quality of self. Any given mind state we express 1032 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,479 Speaker 1: is ultimately just a just a phase and a continual path. 1033 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,120 Speaker 1: We tend to falsely identify both past selves and future 1034 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,239 Speaker 1: selves as being the same as who we are now. 1035 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: But the reality, of course is it is it is 1036 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:05,319 Speaker 1: rather akin to these disassembled and reconstructed ships that we're 1037 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,360 Speaker 1: talking about. I'm a vessel composed of certain parts of 1038 00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,200 Speaker 1: my past, and many of these parts will constitute the 1039 00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: ship of my future. And so when we ponder such 1040 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: possibilities as digital immortality or some form of digitalized consciousness, 1041 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,520 Speaker 1: we can't help it summon the ship of theseus which 1042 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:26,080 Speaker 1: me am I attempting to safeguard, though will and will 1043 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,520 Speaker 1: it remain me? Will it change? Doesn't matter? And then 1044 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,399 Speaker 1: there's the whole coin flip to consider. Oh yeah, yeah, 1045 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,799 Speaker 1: what's the deal with the coin flip? Propert um, Well, 1046 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,240 Speaker 1: this is the idea, like, if I am digitizing myself 1047 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,640 Speaker 1: for teleporting, is there any uh well, am I actually 1048 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,840 Speaker 1: going to continue experiencing as this new thing? Or is 1049 00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: it in there? Well that's a great question. I mean, 1050 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,160 Speaker 1: we don't really know the answer to that, and I 1051 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:55,240 Speaker 1: feel like it's almost hilarious sometimes. How easily many techno 1052 00:55:55,360 --> 00:56:00,160 Speaker 1: utopians and digital immortality enthusiasts just seemed to assume that 1053 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,920 Speaker 1: your consciousness can be transported onto some kind of hardware 1054 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,399 Speaker 1: or machine. I think that that's far from a given 1055 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,960 Speaker 1: we don't even know if it's possible for machines to 1056 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,560 Speaker 1: be conscious. Maybe, I mean, it might be possible. But 1057 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,200 Speaker 1: even if so, would that be you in there? Would 1058 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,480 Speaker 1: it be like the teleporter and Okay, now you die 1059 00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,719 Speaker 1: and here's a digital copy of you that you don't 1060 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,680 Speaker 1: get to share in the experience of I mean it 1061 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,480 Speaker 1: ultimately is would it be the same as that stone 1062 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,600 Speaker 1: statue of a long dead individual, like it's just the 1063 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,080 Speaker 1: technological evolution of that same idea, like that that statue 1064 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,719 Speaker 1: is not long dead Napoleon. Uh, neither is this digitized 1065 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,960 Speaker 1: Napoleon that we're going to send Alpha Centauri. Now. I 1066 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,120 Speaker 1: attended the World Science Festival earlier this year, and one 1067 00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,440 Speaker 1: of the salons that I attended uh as a smaller 1068 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,280 Speaker 1: panel discussion, was titled to Be or Not to Be Bionic? 1069 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,480 Speaker 1: And one of the participants on this panel was a 1070 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,680 Speaker 1: man by the name of S. Matthew Law, director of 1071 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,800 Speaker 1: the Center for Bioethics and affiliate aided professor in the 1072 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: Department of Philosophy at New York University, and he brought 1073 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,680 Speaker 1: up the whole if you can upload it, is it 1074 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:11,040 Speaker 1: you question and pointed to the gradual replacement of neurons 1075 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,600 Speaker 1: one by one is a potential approach. Uh. And it 1076 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 1: makes sense, right, don't just make an immortal robot version 1077 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:22,000 Speaker 1: of me? Now gradually change me piece by piece into 1078 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,840 Speaker 1: an immortal robot almost like almost like tricked me into 1079 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,160 Speaker 1: being an immortal robot. You know, don't just don't just 1080 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 1: hoodwink me all at once, like like you know, slip 1081 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,200 Speaker 1: in there. That's an interesting question. So yeah, I imagine 1082 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,200 Speaker 1: if somebody just made a robot copy of you and 1083 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,680 Speaker 1: then said well, now this is you, you would say, no, wait, 1084 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,640 Speaker 1: that's don't turn me off. That's not me. But if 1085 00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,360 Speaker 1: they replaced you one part at a time, it's possible 1086 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,280 Speaker 1: that might give you a feeling of continuous experience that 1087 00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:51,960 Speaker 1: the rest that the other process wouldn't. But I mean 1088 00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,320 Speaker 1: that depends on you know, they're all these different models 1089 00:57:55,400 --> 00:58:00,400 Speaker 1: of what's the physical substrate of consciousness? Right? Is consciousness? Uh? 1090 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,440 Speaker 1: Is there some part of the brain that it's based in. 1091 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:05,240 Speaker 1: If you go back to Daniel Dennet, who we were 1092 00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,200 Speaker 1: talking about a minute ago, he might say, well, actually, 1093 00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,560 Speaker 1: the idea that consciousness is a single thing is an illusion. 1094 00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:14,440 Speaker 1: You know, consciousness is a range of phenomena. Now this uh, 1095 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,880 Speaker 1: this gradual replacement of neurons to upload consciousness. This, of course, 1096 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: is just another thought experiment in and of itself. For instance, 1097 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,640 Speaker 1: cognitive scientists and philosopher David J. Chalmers wrote about it 1098 00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,800 Speaker 1: back in the nineties. Though I'm I'm unsure who first 1099 00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,520 Speaker 1: actually proposed the idea and if it occurred within the 1100 00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,760 Speaker 1: realm of philosophy, cognitive science, or science fiction. So many 1101 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:38,880 Speaker 1: of these wonderful ideas actually emerge within the sci fi 1102 00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 1: realm before they become you know, cognitive science, thought experience, 1103 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:47,240 Speaker 1: etcetera swamp thing and swamp Man potentially being an example 1104 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:48,800 Speaker 1: of this. I mean, this is one of the great 1105 00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:50,880 Speaker 1: things about science fiction, is it gives us space to 1106 00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:55,520 Speaker 1: explore these concepts before they're actually technologically feasible. Yeah. Uh, 1107 00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:57,920 Speaker 1: and you know it is it kind of gets into 1108 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 1: that whole Daniel Dennett situation too. Sometimes it's it's just 1109 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:03,920 Speaker 1: there to amuse you and like, you know, twist your 1110 00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,840 Speaker 1: mind around. But if it twist your mind enough, you know, 1111 00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,120 Speaker 1: sometimes you end up it becomes this, uh, this pure 1112 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:13,720 Speaker 1: thought experiment. Um. Well. Yeah, and along the same lines, 1113 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: I think maybe what you're getting at is that sometimes 1114 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,800 Speaker 1: science fictional explorations of concepts can become the opposite of enlightening. 1115 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,200 Speaker 1: They just become confusing, they become a bad road to take, 1116 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,520 Speaker 1: or they just become art. You know. I think of 1117 00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,760 Speaker 1: like some of the Borhees stories where you have somebody 1118 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,360 Speaker 1: that's dreaming within a dream, the circular ruins and all 1119 00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,040 Speaker 1: these there are elements to them that are similar to 1120 00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,160 Speaker 1: thought experiments. But I would never say that a Borhe's 1121 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,840 Speaker 1: story is a thought experiment. I guess you could. I mean, 1122 00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,200 Speaker 1: I guess an interesting question in the story, I'd have 1123 00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,080 Speaker 1: to like go back and think story by story, But 1124 00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:52,040 Speaker 1: I'll library library of Babbel's kind of a thought experience. Yeah, yeah, 1125 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,440 Speaker 1: I mean you could almost say it's a philosophy paper, 1126 00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,680 Speaker 1: you could. Yeah, alright, maybe I take all that back. 1127 00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,480 Speaker 1: Let's see, I need to reread to some bore Yes preaps. 1128 01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:02,720 Speaker 1: But but but you know what I'm saying, like it 1129 01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:06,080 Speaker 1: can become I feel like some of these ideas, it's 1130 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,200 Speaker 1: almost like there's a crossroads likely right, where are you 1131 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:09,600 Speaker 1: gonna push it? Are you gonna push it into this 1132 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:13,280 Speaker 1: realm of of of sort of you know, boiled down 1133 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:17,440 Speaker 1: thought experimentation or is it art? Is it meant to 1134 01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,960 Speaker 1: to make you think and explore new ideas, but not 1135 01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,840 Speaker 1: in like necessarily a you know, a regimented fashion is 1136 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,600 Speaker 1: most sci fi, just like speculative meta ethics papers that 1137 01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,160 Speaker 1: are it's formulated in a way that people want to read. Well, 1138 01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,680 Speaker 1: it comes back to time COP. Time COP is not 1139 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:37,760 Speaker 1: a thought experiment. And yet at the same time, when 1140 01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:39,800 Speaker 1: I first saw it as a kid, and in time 1141 01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:41,760 Speaker 1: and time over the years, I'll stop and I'll think, well, 1142 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:45,280 Speaker 1: that part when when the two villains melt together, is 1143 01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,280 Speaker 1: that right? How would that work? Like? I'm it's you know, 1144 01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,840 Speaker 1: it's poorly constructed ultimately, but it does make me think 1145 01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,400 Speaker 1: like a lot of bad movies, do I guess? But 1146 01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,160 Speaker 1: but back to the gradual replacement of neurons and uploading 1147 01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,080 Speaker 1: them and all, um, yeah, it comes back to the 1148 01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,600 Speaker 1: ship of theseis idea during this replacement? Is gradual replacement? 1149 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:09,520 Speaker 1: Does it at some point cease to be me? And 1150 01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,240 Speaker 1: And what if there is this dark point in the transition, 1151 01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,480 Speaker 1: the moment of unconsciousness, does that signal the end of 1152 01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,760 Speaker 1: your consciousness in the beginning of the next Uh? Is 1153 01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,960 Speaker 1: that which comes after not you? And if it's not, 1154 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,800 Speaker 1: then again coming back to what you said earlier about anesthesia. 1155 01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,120 Speaker 1: How are we supposed to interpret that is that the 1156 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:33,960 Speaker 1: individual before and after anesthesia are those ultimately separate uh entities. 1157 01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:37,480 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately there's this slippery kind of concept in 1158 01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,640 Speaker 1: here that I feel like his key that that is 1159 01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 1: causing a lot of the trouble, And it's the idea 1160 01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,760 Speaker 1: of I don't know if there's already a name for it, 1161 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:50,680 Speaker 1: but I'd call it something like anticipatory continuity. So it's like, 1162 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,240 Speaker 1: you think, if you can create a conscious robot and 1163 01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,400 Speaker 1: you could put your brain in there, you know, at 1164 01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,720 Speaker 1: least the conscious robot could have the experience of being 1165 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:03,120 Speaker 1: continuously you. But what you don't want is the you 1166 01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:08,560 Speaker 1: that's about to transition, thinking I'm going to disappear and die. 1167 01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,360 Speaker 1: Though of course, you know, the you of every moment 1168 01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,200 Speaker 1: changes into the you of the future, and that you 1169 01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,600 Speaker 1: of the future remembers being past you, and the future 1170 01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, the current you doesn't really worry about the 1171 01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,560 Speaker 1: fact that present you won't exist a few seconds in 1172 01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,080 Speaker 1: the future. But there's there's some kind of distinction people 1173 01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:31,320 Speaker 1: are making mentally. They're right, they're saying, like, if wait, 1174 01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,000 Speaker 1: there's a way that I could die, and some other 1175 01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:37,000 Speaker 1: thing could go on being me, which would be different 1176 01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,760 Speaker 1: than just me being me a few seconds from now. Well, 1177 01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,720 Speaker 1: I just need a teleporter to edit that out before 1178 01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,760 Speaker 1: it recreates the enemy. Edit out the fear of death 1179 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:48,960 Speaker 1: in the teleporter, and then I guess we'll be okay. 1180 01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,080 Speaker 1: But I mean, is it death? I mean, I guess 1181 01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,520 Speaker 1: that's actually a question to ask, like, if there's a 1182 01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:56,360 Speaker 1: version of you continuing, is there a way of saying 1183 01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,160 Speaker 1: that it's actually that it's not any different from you 1184 01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,480 Speaker 1: of three seconds from now continuing the existence of you 1185 01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,240 Speaker 1: right now? Well, I mean, because if we're talking about 1186 01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,160 Speaker 1: just the physical body, we also have to remember that 1187 01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,919 Speaker 1: the body does replace itself largely with a new set 1188 01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:15,560 Speaker 1: of cells every seven seven years to ten years, and 1189 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:19,120 Speaker 1: some of the most important parts are revamped even more rapidly. 1190 01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,320 Speaker 1: But that's that's the more original ship of theseus idea. 1191 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,960 Speaker 1: That's gradual replacement, and so we tend to be on 1192 01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:29,080 Speaker 1: board with that, right you know, I mean, I refuse, 1193 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:31,600 Speaker 1: you refuse, I won't do it. There's some people who 1194 01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,480 Speaker 1: who who believe the body is just well, it makes 1195 01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,040 Speaker 1: me think of our old friend Connor McLeod, the Highlander. 1196 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,480 Speaker 1: So in order to live like five centuries, is it 1197 01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:43,560 Speaker 1: just more or less like our body, Like everything is 1198 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,320 Speaker 1: just you know, some cells are dying and being replaced 1199 01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,840 Speaker 1: or are his cells just super strong? Are they the 1200 01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,440 Speaker 1: same cells? Is he like also largely identical to the 1201 01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,560 Speaker 1: original Highlander except he had a haircut? Well, I mean 1202 01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:59,080 Speaker 1: this makes me think about our episode about neuroplasticity, about 1203 01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:03,680 Speaker 1: how neuroplasticity is a balancing act. Like, you want the 1204 01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,480 Speaker 1: brain to be able to change and adapt to a 1205 01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,240 Speaker 1: certain extent so it can adapt to new scenarios and 1206 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,120 Speaker 1: learn and all that, But you also don't want the 1207 01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,160 Speaker 1: brain to be so radically open to change that it is. 1208 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,240 Speaker 1: You know, it can just be ravaged by trauma and 1209 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:20,960 Speaker 1: things like that. You know, you know what I mean. 1210 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:25,640 Speaker 1: So there's weakness in being elastic, but there's also strength 1211 01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,720 Speaker 1: and being elastic. And I guess evolution tried to shape 1212 01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,120 Speaker 1: our our nervous systems to find that correct balance. But 1213 01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,760 Speaker 1: inherent in that tension is the idea that some amount 1214 01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,120 Speaker 1: of stability over time is preferable. That's like better for 1215 01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,640 Speaker 1: us as an organism. You don't want to be radically 1216 01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:44,440 Speaker 1: open to change all the time. Then again maybe that 1217 01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: that only matters over long time scales. And then it's 1218 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,160 Speaker 1: that I guess you could also want to it's the 1219 01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 1: average person just going to be open to the appropriate 1220 01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:56,440 Speaker 1: amount of change. I think back to. Uh, this is 1221 01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,680 Speaker 1: a line from Terence McKenna that he said, um, if 1222 01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:01,560 Speaker 1: there's something that needs to be done, you will find 1223 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,320 Speaker 1: yourself doing it, um, which is is one of those 1224 01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:07,080 Speaker 1: statements that seems kind of kind of obvious, but at 1225 01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:10,880 Speaker 1: the same time it's I keep coming back to and thinking, well, yeah, 1226 01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,280 Speaker 1: I guess I would like. Man, if you say, well, 1227 01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:15,240 Speaker 1: there's this thing I should have done and I didn't 1228 01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:16,840 Speaker 1: do it, well, maybe you didn't need to do that thing, 1229 01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:20,120 Speaker 1: and that's why you have reached this point where you're 1230 01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:22,560 Speaker 1: looking back on it like that. What does it mean 1231 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:26,280 Speaker 1: to need to do something? Yeah? Wow, we've really gone 1232 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,240 Speaker 1: all the way into the navel on this this episode. Um, 1233 01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:33,320 Speaker 1: lots of hands not touching themselves. All right. Well, on 1234 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:37,280 Speaker 1: that note, I think we're gonna exit here. But before 1235 01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,440 Speaker 1: we do, well, we're not gonna have time to touch base. Uh. 1236 01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,320 Speaker 1: You know, on every example of the ship of Theseus, 1237 01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:48,320 Speaker 1: as it's been expressed in various works of art or fiction. 1238 01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:50,960 Speaker 1: But but I do want to pinpoint a couple of 1239 01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,960 Speaker 1: them here real quick for starters, the book blind Side 1240 01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:57,200 Speaker 1: by Peter Watts that we both read. I didn't realize 1241 01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,200 Speaker 1: until I started looking into this, or I didn't remember 1242 01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,080 Speaker 1: that the space ship that there on is the Theseus. 1243 01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,040 Speaker 1: That's kind and it is a joke, I guess, yeah, 1244 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,520 Speaker 1: and it is capable of rebuilding itself. And then you 1245 01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,280 Speaker 1: also have a member of the crew who has had 1246 01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:13,200 Speaker 1: half his brain rebuilt. So there are a number of 1247 01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:17,520 Speaker 1: elements there well. Also, just generally in the works of 1248 01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:21,960 Speaker 1: Peter Watts, characters are very much Ship of THESEUS style brains. 1249 01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,560 Speaker 1: Maybe we've had lots of neural augmentation and all that. 1250 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:28,640 Speaker 1: Now the teleporter problem variant that we talked about, that's 1251 01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:31,880 Speaker 1: been explored on The Outer Limits and to a large 1252 01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:35,360 Speaker 1: extent the Christopher Nolan film The Prestige. There was a 1253 01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:39,520 Speaker 1: character on Star Trek Deep Space nine named Antos who 1254 01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,080 Speaker 1: was a Bajor and spiritual leader who had to have 1255 01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:45,680 Speaker 1: his brain gradually replaced with cybernetics, and this eroded his 1256 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,080 Speaker 1: previous sense of self and this had a negative impact 1257 01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:51,600 Speaker 1: on his relationship with Kira, the Joran character on that 1258 01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,440 Speaker 1: show I must. I've never watched Deep Space, but it's 1259 01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:56,280 Speaker 1: pretty great. I didn't. I have to say, I do 1260 01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,200 Speaker 1: not specifically remember this episode, but I used to watch 1261 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,880 Speaker 1: it all the time, like every evening at like nine 1262 01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,160 Speaker 1: pm or something in syndication. Our producer Alex has often 1263 01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:07,840 Speaker 1: schooled me on to Space nine. We're gonna get an 1264 01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,640 Speaker 1: email on this one, for sure. Uh. There's an episode 1265 01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:15,320 Speaker 1: of Futurama titled The six Million Dollar Man, in which Hermes, 1266 01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,080 Speaker 1: one of the characters, gradually replaces his entire body with 1267 01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:23,000 Speaker 1: the robotic parts, while Zoidberg, the you know, crustacean alien doctor. 1268 01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,360 Speaker 1: He's been stitching the discarded parts together into little Hermes 1269 01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:31,360 Speaker 1: of introlcos dummy. Oh no. And so there, you know, 1270 01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:33,720 Speaker 1: you're left to wonder, well, which one is the original? 1271 01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:35,800 Speaker 1: Which one is Hermes? Is that this the robot or 1272 01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:41,480 Speaker 1: this grotesque meat puppet? And then one of the examples 1273 01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:43,280 Speaker 1: that I was most impressed we have mainly because I 1274 01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:45,320 Speaker 1: just had no idea about the depth here on this, 1275 01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:48,120 Speaker 1: but the tin Woodman from the Wizard of Oz books, 1276 01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,080 Speaker 1: the books by L. Frank Baum. Oh, I've never read 1277 01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,760 Speaker 1: the books. I have not either, but when I started 1278 01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:57,080 Speaker 1: looking into this. Yeah, there's this whole narrative about the 1279 01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:00,080 Speaker 1: tin Man, how the tin Man has a like his 1280 01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:04,160 Speaker 1: ax was was cursed by the wicked witch and then 1281 01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,280 Speaker 1: he like accidentally like chopped away, you know, part of 1282 01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:11,120 Speaker 1: his body, and then then it was replaced with tin. 1283 01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:13,200 Speaker 1: And then he ends up chopping away another part of 1284 01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,400 Speaker 1: his body and it's replaced with tin. And he just 1285 01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,639 Speaker 1: keeps losing pieces upon pieces of his body until he's 1286 01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,080 Speaker 1: all ten except for his heart. And then one day 1287 01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,519 Speaker 1: he cuts himself in half, I believe. And so now 1288 01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,519 Speaker 1: now his heart has been bisected, and that's why he 1289 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:29,120 Speaker 1: needs the the heart he has to reclaim like this, 1290 01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:33,000 Speaker 1: this this portion of his humanity that has been lost 1291 01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:37,360 Speaker 1: in this gradual replacement essentially a cybernetic replacement of itself. 1292 01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:41,120 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I never thought of Frank Baum getting into cybernetics. Yeah, 1293 01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:43,679 Speaker 1: he's essentially transhumanist. Right. Are you one of the people 1294 01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:45,720 Speaker 1: who's a big fan of Return to Oz? I know 1295 01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:48,320 Speaker 1: people who are into that. I've never seen it, but 1296 01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:50,960 Speaker 1: I remember seeing the trailer as a kid, being like 1297 01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:54,960 Speaker 1: a little freaked out by those people with wheels for hands, 1298 01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,200 Speaker 1: so I should see it. It sounds exactly like the 1299 01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,600 Speaker 1: thing i'd be into. We should do a science of 1300 01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:05,000 Speaker 1: return to OZ episode. Well, let's not commit until we 1301 01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,600 Speaker 1: know we're getting into. Okay, Now, there are just a 1302 01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,840 Speaker 1: few fictional examples of the Ship of Theseus. I'm sure 1303 01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,519 Speaker 1: all of you listening out there you have examples you'd 1304 01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,559 Speaker 1: like to bring up as well. Um, so we would 1305 01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,120 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. In the meantime, be sure 1306 01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:20,680 Speaker 1: to check out stuff to all your mind. That is 1307 01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,439 Speaker 1: where you will find all the episodes of the podcast. 1308 01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,040 Speaker 1: You'll find links out to your various social media accounts. 1309 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:27,840 Speaker 1: You'll find a link there at the top for our 1310 01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:31,000 Speaker 1: store where you'll get to check out some some shirts, 1311 01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:34,000 Speaker 1: some merch. Another wonderful way to support the show and uh, 1312 01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,360 Speaker 1: of course, if you want to support the show, an 1313 01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:39,519 Speaker 1: easy freeway to do it is to simply rate and 1314 01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:41,760 Speaker 1: review us wherever you have the power to do that. 1315 01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:44,599 Speaker 1: Thank you so much as always to our wonderful audio 1316 01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:47,880 Speaker 1: producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. If you would like 1317 01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:49,760 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us directly to let us 1318 01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:52,040 Speaker 1: know feedback on this episode or any other, to share 1319 01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:54,120 Speaker 1: your own thoughts about the Ship of Theseus and how 1320 01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,960 Speaker 1: that applies to the human mind, the human brain and consciousness. 1321 01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,880 Speaker 1: To suggest a topic for a future episode, or just 1322 01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,240 Speaker 1: to say hi, you can email us at Blow the 1323 01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:14,080 Speaker 1: Mind at how staff works dot com for more on 1324 01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:16,679 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff 1325 01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:28,920 Speaker 1: works dot com. The big