1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:29,636 --> 00:00:32,836 Speaker 2: Hey, it's Maya. Like many of us entering the new year, 3 00:00:33,116 --> 00:00:35,436 Speaker 2: one of my goals is to be a happier, more 4 00:00:35,476 --> 00:00:39,436 Speaker 2: peaceful person in twenty twenty six. That's why I recently 5 00:00:39,476 --> 00:00:42,916 Speaker 2: revisited a conversation I had with my friend and former 6 00:00:43,036 --> 00:00:47,836 Speaker 2: undergrad advisor, Laurie Santos. Lari is a psychology professor at 7 00:00:47,956 --> 00:00:51,796 Speaker 2: Yale and a leading expert on happiness. She shares a 8 00:00:51,836 --> 00:00:54,836 Speaker 2: bunch of science back strategies that we can implement right 9 00:00:54,876 --> 00:00:58,316 Speaker 2: away to make us meaningfully happier in our everyday lives. 10 00:00:58,716 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 2: Our conversation ranged from ideas like the arrival fallacy, the 11 00:01:02,876 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 2: false sense that reaching one big milestone will finally be 12 00:01:06,396 --> 00:01:09,076 Speaker 2: the thing that makes us happy, to whether thinking about 13 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:13,476 Speaker 2: our own happiness too much can actually backfire. I hope 14 00:01:13,516 --> 00:01:16,436 Speaker 2: you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I 15 00:01:16,556 --> 00:01:20,436 Speaker 2: enjoyed hosting it. All Right, without further ado, here's my 16 00:01:20,516 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 2: conversation with Laurie. Hi, Laurie, Hello a, Maya. Thank you 17 00:01:25,996 --> 00:01:28,396 Speaker 2: for joining me on a slight change of plans in 18 00:01:28,476 --> 00:01:30,356 Speaker 2: honor of World Happiness Day. 19 00:01:30,396 --> 00:01:31,596 Speaker 1: I love it. Thanks so much for having me on 20 00:01:31,596 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 1: the show. 21 00:01:32,596 --> 00:01:35,236 Speaker 2: So I alluded to this, but it's worth sharing with 22 00:01:35,316 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 2: folks that I've actually known you since I was seventeen 23 00:01:38,236 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 2: years old. I was a student of yours almost eight years. No, no, 24 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:46,596 Speaker 2: it feels like it's been so much longer. I was 25 00:01:46,636 --> 00:01:49,956 Speaker 2: a freshman in your monkey lab class, and you ended 26 00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:53,556 Speaker 2: up being my academic advisor for all four years. And 27 00:01:54,076 --> 00:01:57,996 Speaker 2: at the time, your research lab was focused on cognition, right, 28 00:01:58,116 --> 00:02:01,756 Speaker 2: differences between monkeys and humans, and I would never have 29 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:03,836 Speaker 2: known at the time that at some point you would 30 00:02:03,876 --> 00:02:07,756 Speaker 2: pivot and start focusing on happiness research. So can you 31 00:02:07,796 --> 00:02:09,076 Speaker 2: share what led to that show? 32 00:02:09,836 --> 00:02:11,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just as so much of a surprise 33 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:14,916 Speaker 1: for me too, interestingly, but yeah, no, So, I mean 34 00:02:14,956 --> 00:02:17,076 Speaker 1: I was doing all this work on kind of comparative 35 00:02:17,076 --> 00:02:20,436 Speaker 1: cognition and studying monkeys, you know, happily doing that work, 36 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 1: and then I took on a new role at Yale, 37 00:02:22,516 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 1: I becoming what's called the head of college. And so 38 00:02:25,596 --> 00:02:27,316 Speaker 1: I know you know this, but for your listeners, Yale's 39 00:02:27,316 --> 00:02:30,196 Speaker 1: one of these weird schools like Hogwarts and Harry Potter, 40 00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 1: where there's like colleges within a college. There's like Gryffindor 41 00:02:32,916 --> 00:02:35,436 Speaker 1: and s Lytherin kind of thing. Yale has these two. 42 00:02:35,596 --> 00:02:37,796 Speaker 1: I was head of what's called Silliman College, and that 43 00:02:37,916 --> 00:02:40,236 Speaker 1: meant that I, as a faculty member, lived on campus 44 00:02:40,236 --> 00:02:42,156 Speaker 1: with students. So I hung out with them in the 45 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:43,916 Speaker 1: dining hall and I just you know, saw them in 46 00:02:43,956 --> 00:02:46,396 Speaker 1: the coffee shop. I was like really much closer to 47 00:02:46,396 --> 00:02:48,476 Speaker 1: student life than I was even you know, running my 48 00:02:48,556 --> 00:02:51,116 Speaker 1: lab where I got to know students really well, and honestly, 49 00:02:51,156 --> 00:02:52,756 Speaker 1: I just didn't like what I was seeing. I was 50 00:02:52,756 --> 00:02:55,516 Speaker 1: seeing the college student mental health crisis up close and personal, 51 00:02:55,636 --> 00:02:58,076 Speaker 1: where just in my community we had so many students 52 00:02:58,116 --> 00:03:02,796 Speaker 1: who were self reporting experiencing like extreme anxiety or suicidality 53 00:03:02,916 --> 00:03:05,596 Speaker 1: or panic attacks. It was just like on the ground, 54 00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:08,196 Speaker 1: just so sad and scary that these students' lives were 55 00:03:08,236 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 1: just like riddled with these mental health issues. And this 56 00:03:11,116 --> 00:03:13,196 Speaker 1: is not just what's going on at Yale or any 57 00:03:13,196 --> 00:03:15,916 Speaker 1: other IVY League campus. This is what's happening nationally right now, 58 00:03:16,196 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 1: where nationally over sixty five percent of college students report 59 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:22,836 Speaker 1: being more anxious and overwhelmingly anxious such that they can't 60 00:03:22,836 --> 00:03:25,236 Speaker 1: get any work done. Like the stats are just like 61 00:03:25,316 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 1: staggering when you look at them. And so that was 62 00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:30,396 Speaker 1: when I made this pivot to studying happiness. I was like, 63 00:03:30,876 --> 00:03:32,756 Speaker 1: I need to figure out ways that I can help 64 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:35,276 Speaker 1: my students, right, Like my job as a professor means 65 00:03:35,276 --> 00:03:36,916 Speaker 1: I need to take care of the mental health of 66 00:03:36,916 --> 00:03:39,156 Speaker 1: these students that are around me. And one way I 67 00:03:39,196 --> 00:03:40,876 Speaker 1: can do that is to try to figure out, like, 68 00:03:41,036 --> 00:03:43,396 Speaker 1: what are strategies that we know from science that students 69 00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:45,636 Speaker 1: can use to feel happier. And so I made this 70 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:48,596 Speaker 1: whole new class, Psychology in the Good Life that I thought, 71 00:03:48,596 --> 00:03:51,076 Speaker 1: would you know, be just like a normal class on 72 00:03:51,156 --> 00:03:53,676 Speaker 1: Yale's campus, But in the end it kind of went 73 00:03:53,716 --> 00:03:57,196 Speaker 1: a little bit viral. Over twelve hundred students showed up 74 00:03:57,196 --> 00:03:59,796 Speaker 1: on the first day of class to be part of 75 00:03:59,796 --> 00:04:01,596 Speaker 1: this new class that we were teaching, and I think 76 00:04:01,676 --> 00:04:03,716 Speaker 1: it showed that, like young people today are voting with 77 00:04:03,756 --> 00:04:05,556 Speaker 1: their feet, like they don't like this culture of feeling 78 00:04:05,556 --> 00:04:08,516 Speaker 1: stressed out and anxious, and they really just wanted to 79 00:04:08,596 --> 00:04:10,596 Speaker 1: learn how they could kind of protect their well being. 80 00:04:10,636 --> 00:04:13,396 Speaker 1: And so from there I kind of retrained in this 81 00:04:13,556 --> 00:04:17,116 Speaker 1: new domain of happiness studies and realized it was useful 82 00:04:17,156 --> 00:04:20,796 Speaker 1: not just for Yale students, but useful for like, honestly everyone, 83 00:04:20,916 --> 00:04:23,836 Speaker 1: because everybody's trying to be happy. Everyone's sort of feeling 84 00:04:23,876 --> 00:04:25,676 Speaker 1: a little bit burned out these days and feeling a 85 00:04:25,676 --> 00:04:28,116 Speaker 1: little stressed, and I think so many of us are 86 00:04:28,116 --> 00:04:30,396 Speaker 1: looking for strategies from science about what we can do 87 00:04:30,476 --> 00:04:31,236 Speaker 1: to feel better. 88 00:04:32,356 --> 00:04:34,916 Speaker 2: So I want to establish the basics because there are 89 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:37,276 Speaker 2: so many definitions of happiness out there, and there's so 90 00:04:37,276 --> 00:04:41,516 Speaker 2: many questions, philosophical questions about what happiness is. Is it satisfaction, 91 00:04:41,796 --> 00:04:44,476 Speaker 2: is it joy? Is it fulfillment? Is it pleasure? And 92 00:04:44,516 --> 00:04:48,116 Speaker 2: I really love how you and many other psychologists define 93 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 2: and measure happiness because to me, it encompasses so many 94 00:04:52,956 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 2: of these concepts. So do you mind sharing how you 95 00:04:55,596 --> 00:04:56,556 Speaker 2: think of that happiness? 96 00:04:57,196 --> 00:04:59,756 Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is a definition that I've taken from 97 00:04:59,796 --> 00:05:03,956 Speaker 1: Sonya Lubermirski, who's a professor at UC Riverside, and she 98 00:05:04,076 --> 00:05:08,036 Speaker 1: thinks about happiness as being defined as being happy in 99 00:05:08,036 --> 00:05:11,516 Speaker 1: your life and being with your life. So let's kind 100 00:05:11,556 --> 00:05:13,636 Speaker 1: of break this down. So, being happy in your life, 101 00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:15,756 Speaker 1: this is the idea that you have a decent number 102 00:05:15,796 --> 00:05:17,916 Speaker 1: of positive emotions, or at least a decent ratio of 103 00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:21,356 Speaker 1: positive emotions to negative emotions. I think bracketed happiness is 104 00:05:21,396 --> 00:05:23,396 Speaker 1: not about getting rid of all of your negative emotions. 105 00:05:23,396 --> 00:05:27,036 Speaker 1: That's toxic positivity. That's not what happiness researchers mean, but 106 00:05:27,076 --> 00:05:29,316 Speaker 1: it does mean like having a decent ratio of positive 107 00:05:29,316 --> 00:05:32,156 Speaker 1: things like cheerfulness and joy and laughter to the not 108 00:05:32,196 --> 00:05:34,636 Speaker 1: so good things like anger and sadness and so on. 109 00:05:34,956 --> 00:05:36,796 Speaker 1: So that's kind of being happy in your life. But 110 00:05:37,196 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 1: being happy with your life is a different construct. It's 111 00:05:40,316 --> 00:05:42,556 Speaker 1: how you think your life is going. So it's your 112 00:05:42,596 --> 00:05:45,236 Speaker 1: answer to the question, all things considered, how satisfied are 113 00:05:45,236 --> 00:05:47,796 Speaker 1: you with your life? And so researchers have called these 114 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:51,556 Speaker 1: the affective and cognitive parts of subjective well being. So 115 00:05:51,676 --> 00:05:54,276 Speaker 1: the affective like the more emotional parts of happiness, and 116 00:05:54,316 --> 00:05:56,436 Speaker 1: the cognitive how you think your life is going parts 117 00:05:56,436 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 1: of happiness. And I love this definition because it shows 118 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 1: us a couple things. One is it shows us that 119 00:06:01,316 --> 00:06:04,636 Speaker 1: these constructs can dissociate. And you probably know people for 120 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:07,916 Speaker 1: whom they've dissociated. I have a friend who has a 121 00:06:07,956 --> 00:06:11,356 Speaker 1: newborn baby right now, and you know she is with 122 00:06:11,476 --> 00:06:13,756 Speaker 1: her life quite happy, right you know, she's this new 123 00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 1: like meaningful, bulderful of joy who she loves and you know, 124 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:18,796 Speaker 1: can't wait to see his future and so on. But 125 00:06:19,236 --> 00:06:22,316 Speaker 1: like in her life, maybe the emotions are not as good. Right, 126 00:06:22,596 --> 00:06:26,276 Speaker 1: there's like, yeah, it's like it's a rough go and 127 00:06:26,316 --> 00:06:28,956 Speaker 1: you like have a newborn baby. Right. And we probably 128 00:06:28,996 --> 00:06:31,556 Speaker 1: also can come up with examples of the opposite. You know, 129 00:06:31,636 --> 00:06:34,636 Speaker 1: somebody who might have in their life all these like 130 00:06:34,676 --> 00:06:37,076 Speaker 1: hedonistic pleasures, you know, to think of some like super 131 00:06:37,156 --> 00:06:40,276 Speaker 1: rich or super famous person, but with their life, maybe 132 00:06:40,316 --> 00:06:43,436 Speaker 1: they feel a certain emptiness. Right. And So I love 133 00:06:43,476 --> 00:06:45,676 Speaker 1: this definition because I think it captures so much of 134 00:06:45,676 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to help my students with and what 135 00:06:47,996 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 1: I'm trying to help my listeners with with happiness. What 136 00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:53,036 Speaker 1: I want them to have is a life that's filled 137 00:06:53,076 --> 00:06:55,796 Speaker 1: with lots of positive emotion and a life that feels 138 00:06:55,836 --> 00:06:58,236 Speaker 1: satisfying to live a life that they think is going well. 139 00:06:58,316 --> 00:07:00,796 Speaker 1: And the great news is there's so many strategies that 140 00:07:00,836 --> 00:07:03,756 Speaker 1: we can use to boost both of those constructs up. 141 00:07:05,436 --> 00:07:08,196 Speaker 2: What is the time horizon for thinking about the like 142 00:07:08,596 --> 00:07:11,236 Speaker 2: in your life versus the with your life? Because in 143 00:07:11,276 --> 00:07:13,956 Speaker 2: any given day, I wonder, you know, can you have 144 00:07:14,116 --> 00:07:17,116 Speaker 2: both that moment to moment understanding of your happiness and 145 00:07:17,156 --> 00:07:18,836 Speaker 2: then also that reflective experience. 146 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is a hard one and this 147 00:07:21,636 --> 00:07:23,316 Speaker 1: is where we get to a sort of dirty secret 148 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:26,996 Speaker 1: of the entire happiness science work, which is that to 149 00:07:27,036 --> 00:07:29,636 Speaker 1: measure people's happiness in their life and with their life, 150 00:07:29,876 --> 00:07:31,556 Speaker 1: we have to ask them, Right, Like I wish we 151 00:07:31,596 --> 00:07:33,636 Speaker 1: had a little thermometer that we could stick in someone's 152 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 1: mouth that would say, well, in your life, you're you know, 153 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 1: ninety nine point six happy, you know, out of one 154 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:40,316 Speaker 1: hundred or something, But we don't. We have to kind 155 00:07:40,316 --> 00:07:42,836 Speaker 1: of ask people, and that brings up the problem that 156 00:07:42,876 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 1: whenever we're asking people, we're getting people's like retrospective judgment 157 00:07:47,236 --> 00:07:49,996 Speaker 1: about how things are going. If I were to ask you, hey, 158 00:07:50,116 --> 00:07:52,836 Speaker 1: you know what, how many positive emotions did you experience 159 00:07:52,876 --> 00:07:54,836 Speaker 1: this week? You'd have to think back and make an 160 00:07:54,836 --> 00:07:57,196 Speaker 1: evaluation of, well, how was that farmer's market or how 161 00:07:57,316 --> 00:07:59,316 Speaker 1: was that you know, interesting coffee shop I went to. Right, 162 00:07:59,356 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: you'd have to kind of make a remembered judgment about something. 163 00:08:02,956 --> 00:08:04,756 Speaker 1: The same is true and even more true in the 164 00:08:04,796 --> 00:08:07,396 Speaker 1: case of your happiness with your life. Right, you kind 165 00:08:07,396 --> 00:08:09,196 Speaker 1: of have to do a sort of summing of, like, well, 166 00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:11,356 Speaker 1: all things considered, how satisfied am I? You're kind of 167 00:08:11,356 --> 00:08:14,156 Speaker 1: making this sort of very cognitive judgment and all of 168 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 1: the judgments are a little bit retrospective, right, and it 169 00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:20,916 Speaker 1: makes us worry that, like maybe the judgments go wrong, 170 00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:23,436 Speaker 1: and maybe those judgments particularly go wrong if you ask 171 00:08:23,516 --> 00:08:26,916 Speaker 1: people after a long time horizon. Many of these happiness 172 00:08:26,916 --> 00:08:30,076 Speaker 1: studies try to do an analysis like in the particular day, 173 00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:32,596 Speaker 1: so tag you right now, like how many positive emotions 174 00:08:32,636 --> 00:08:34,596 Speaker 1: have you experienced this week? So hopefully you'll kind of 175 00:08:34,596 --> 00:08:38,796 Speaker 1: remember accurately. But sometimes we're having people give these retrospections 176 00:08:39,196 --> 00:08:41,476 Speaker 1: a while back, and we might be tapping into maybe 177 00:08:41,476 --> 00:08:44,756 Speaker 1: a different form of happiness and people's remembered happiness than 178 00:08:44,796 --> 00:08:47,676 Speaker 1: in their kind of happiness in the moment. This is 179 00:08:47,676 --> 00:08:51,356 Speaker 1: something that researcher Danny Conneman calls this distinction between experienced 180 00:08:51,396 --> 00:08:54,796 Speaker 1: happiness and remembered happiness, Like it's hard to know the 181 00:08:54,876 --> 00:08:57,556 Speaker 1: experienced happiness because I have to like ask you immediately 182 00:08:57,596 --> 00:08:59,636 Speaker 1: and make sure you're not kind of remembering to get 183 00:08:59,636 --> 00:09:02,876 Speaker 1: it right. But you know, Danny has this interesting quip 184 00:09:02,916 --> 00:09:05,076 Speaker 1: where he says, well, which of these happinesses are we 185 00:09:05,116 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: trying to maximize our experience or our remembered happiness? And 186 00:09:08,436 --> 00:09:09,836 Speaker 1: I feel like he kind that comes down on the 187 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:12,116 Speaker 1: side of the remembered happiness, you know, like the experience 188 00:09:12,156 --> 00:09:15,116 Speaker 1: happiness that's gone. Like all you have access to is 189 00:09:15,156 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 1: what you remember, and so maybe we might want to 190 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:19,276 Speaker 1: maximize that one instead. 191 00:09:20,356 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 2: So a foundational message of your work is that we 192 00:09:23,996 --> 00:09:26,436 Speaker 2: as humans mispredict what is going to make us happy. 193 00:09:26,916 --> 00:09:30,316 Speaker 2: When it comes to happiness, we always have a well, 194 00:09:30,356 --> 00:09:32,956 Speaker 2: as soon as X happens or as soon as Y happens, 195 00:09:32,956 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 2: as soon as I get to Z, that's when I'll 196 00:09:35,436 --> 00:09:38,916 Speaker 2: be happy. Right. We stall our happiness in present day 197 00:09:38,956 --> 00:09:43,116 Speaker 2: with a hope that this future event will deliver all 198 00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:46,316 Speaker 2: the goods. And it might be for someone a promotion 199 00:09:46,396 --> 00:09:49,236 Speaker 2: they're waiting for, or having a family, or finally finding 200 00:09:49,276 --> 00:09:51,596 Speaker 2: a partner to get married to. And we just put 201 00:09:51,596 --> 00:09:54,636 Speaker 2: so much stock in that one event and then inevitably, 202 00:09:54,836 --> 00:09:57,436 Speaker 2: at least the research shows it will disappoint us, right, 203 00:09:57,476 --> 00:09:58,316 Speaker 2: that end destination. 204 00:09:59,116 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what researchers call the arrival fallacy, right, 205 00:10:02,116 --> 00:10:04,316 Speaker 1: or I like to call it the happily ever after fallacy, 206 00:10:04,356 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 1: Like this thing happens and I'll be happy ever after. Right. Yeah. 207 00:10:07,836 --> 00:10:10,196 Speaker 1: So for example, you know my like some high school 208 00:10:10,196 --> 00:10:12,196 Speaker 1: student applies to Yale. They're really excited about it. They 209 00:10:12,196 --> 00:10:14,956 Speaker 1: get in. They over predict that that event of getting 210 00:10:14,956 --> 00:10:18,276 Speaker 1: into Yale will feel amazing, like super super amazing, and 211 00:10:18,316 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 1: they predict that that feeling of happiness will last for 212 00:10:20,796 --> 00:10:23,196 Speaker 1: a really long time. It turns out it doesn't feel 213 00:10:23,236 --> 00:10:26,276 Speaker 1: as amazing as you think, and that amazing feeling doesn't 214 00:10:26,316 --> 00:10:28,636 Speaker 1: last for as long as you think. And that's not 215 00:10:28,676 --> 00:10:30,316 Speaker 1: just true of getting into Yell. It's true of any 216 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:34,396 Speaker 1: positive fact, whether that's like getting married or winning the lottery. 217 00:10:34,516 --> 00:10:36,396 Speaker 1: You know, pick your favorite positive thing. It just like 218 00:10:36,476 --> 00:10:39,316 Speaker 1: doesn't impact you for as much or as long as 219 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:43,236 Speaker 1: you think. But this has like good news attached to 220 00:10:43,276 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 1: it as well, which is that the same is true 221 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:48,796 Speaker 1: for negative events, you know, So pick your terrible negative 222 00:10:48,796 --> 00:10:52,436 Speaker 1: event right, Like you get divorced, you go bankrupt, like 223 00:10:52,556 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 1: you lose the ability to use your leg, you become paraplegic. 224 00:10:55,876 --> 00:10:58,956 Speaker 1: For example, all those things we predict would be really 225 00:10:58,996 --> 00:11:01,996 Speaker 1: really really bad. It would very negatively affect our happiness, 226 00:11:02,236 --> 00:11:04,236 Speaker 1: and we would feel pretty crappy about it for a 227 00:11:04,276 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 1: long time. But it turns out that we even more 228 00:11:08,116 --> 00:11:11,876 Speaker 1: strongly mispredict in the negative direction. So, you know, we mispredict, 229 00:11:11,916 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 1: for example, that getting into yet will feel really good. 230 00:11:14,116 --> 00:11:17,036 Speaker 1: We even more mispredict that having a car crash and 231 00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:20,556 Speaker 1: becoming paraplegic would feel really bad, and we even more 232 00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:23,596 Speaker 1: strongly mispredict how long these negative events are going to last. 233 00:11:23,676 --> 00:11:26,556 Speaker 1: And so research by Harvard professor Dan Gilbert has found 234 00:11:26,596 --> 00:11:29,596 Speaker 1: that our impact bias is worse in the negative direction 235 00:11:29,676 --> 00:11:31,716 Speaker 1: than it is in the positive directions. We make even 236 00:11:31,756 --> 00:11:35,316 Speaker 1: more mispredictions when we're dealing with bad events, which is 237 00:11:35,436 --> 00:11:37,556 Speaker 1: kind of good news, right, because it means that all 238 00:11:37,596 --> 00:11:39,876 Speaker 1: those things, all these things aren't really scared of, They're 239 00:11:39,876 --> 00:11:41,036 Speaker 1: not going to be as bad as we think. 240 00:11:41,516 --> 00:11:44,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, And can you talk a bit about this concept 241 00:11:44,396 --> 00:11:47,116 Speaker 2: of the happiness set point and how when you talk 242 00:11:47,156 --> 00:11:49,996 Speaker 2: about this mixed prediction, what ends up happening is we 243 00:11:50,076 --> 00:11:53,396 Speaker 2: often just return back to our baseline faster than we 244 00:11:53,476 --> 00:11:54,196 Speaker 2: might have thought. 245 00:11:54,476 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so this is a phenomenon the researchers often 246 00:11:57,036 --> 00:11:59,476 Speaker 1: refer to as hedonic adaptation, where you just kind of 247 00:11:59,836 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 1: you go back to wherever your set point was and 248 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:04,156 Speaker 1: happiness no matter what the good stuff and the bad 249 00:12:04,156 --> 00:12:07,156 Speaker 1: stuff is. And again that can feel a little bit depressing, right. 250 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:09,396 Speaker 1: We want these new circumstances in our life life that 251 00:12:09,436 --> 00:12:11,636 Speaker 1: are good to have this positive impact on our happiness 252 00:12:11,636 --> 00:12:14,156 Speaker 1: for a while, but actually we kind of just mostly 253 00:12:14,156 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 1: go back to baseline. But that means the same is 254 00:12:16,356 --> 00:12:18,716 Speaker 1: true for all the crappy stuff in life. Some terrible 255 00:12:18,716 --> 00:12:21,316 Speaker 1: thing happens, and it will, you know, hurt a little 256 00:12:21,316 --> 00:12:23,196 Speaker 1: bit less than we think, maybe for a while, but 257 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:25,156 Speaker 1: not for as long as we think, and so we're 258 00:12:25,236 --> 00:12:27,916 Speaker 1: much more stable in our set points for happiness than 259 00:12:27,916 --> 00:12:28,596 Speaker 1: we expect. 260 00:12:29,356 --> 00:12:31,916 Speaker 2: I still remember learning about this research for the first time, 261 00:12:31,996 --> 00:12:34,756 Speaker 2: and I think this is the most powerful finding that 262 00:12:34,796 --> 00:12:37,596 Speaker 2: I've come across in my entire time as a cognitive 263 00:12:37,596 --> 00:12:41,036 Speaker 2: scientist when it came to impacting my personal life. And 264 00:12:41,236 --> 00:12:44,556 Speaker 2: I think that's because my philosophy around life is to 265 00:12:44,716 --> 00:12:49,196 Speaker 2: minimize suffering. I'm less concerned with maximizing the positive, and 266 00:12:49,356 --> 00:12:52,556 Speaker 2: suffering is what scares the crap out of me, right, 267 00:12:52,836 --> 00:12:55,236 Speaker 2: and so learning that I would be more resilient in 268 00:12:55,236 --> 00:12:58,036 Speaker 2: the face of that suffering has been just I mean, 269 00:12:58,036 --> 00:12:59,476 Speaker 2: it was a boon. Yeah. 270 00:12:59,476 --> 00:13:03,396 Speaker 1: I mean, how often are we like really over analyzing 271 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:06,196 Speaker 1: some decision because we're trying to avoid some negative outcome 272 00:13:06,236 --> 00:13:08,196 Speaker 1: when we can really say to ourselves, actually, if that 273 00:13:08,676 --> 00:13:12,796 Speaker 1: worst case scenario happen, I'd actually be fine with it, 274 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 1: or I'd be more fine than I think, and it 275 00:13:15,276 --> 00:13:17,356 Speaker 1: wouldn't impact me for as long as I think. And 276 00:13:17,396 --> 00:13:21,196 Speaker 1: so I think, Yeah, recognizing that your impact bias can 277 00:13:21,276 --> 00:13:23,036 Speaker 1: kind of make you a little bit more resilient. It 278 00:13:23,036 --> 00:13:24,716 Speaker 1: can make you a little bit more open to however 279 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:25,356 Speaker 1: the world. 280 00:13:25,156 --> 00:13:27,276 Speaker 2: Is going to be like risk seeking, you know, just 281 00:13:27,436 --> 00:13:31,476 Speaker 2: needing of closure. Yeah, and how robust are those findings 282 00:13:31,516 --> 00:13:35,676 Speaker 2: because there are times where I feel like I'm exceptional 283 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:37,116 Speaker 2: in this way. So I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, the 284 00:13:37,156 --> 00:13:39,916 Speaker 2: average person will be really resilient, but I komm a 285 00:13:39,996 --> 00:13:42,756 Speaker 2: maya won't be because I suck in a particular way. 286 00:13:43,076 --> 00:13:45,956 Speaker 2: And so can people buy and large feel fairly good 287 00:13:45,996 --> 00:13:49,276 Speaker 2: given their mental constitution that they will show these effects. 288 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:51,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know there is you know, well 289 00:13:51,796 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 1: there's like this so called replication crisis in psychology, but like, 290 00:13:55,076 --> 00:13:57,596 Speaker 1: I don't think there's any replication crisis when it comes 291 00:13:57,636 --> 00:14:00,276 Speaker 1: to effective forecasting or impact bias. This is the kind 292 00:14:00,276 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 1: of thing that everybody shows and people is shoe it 293 00:14:03,636 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 1: both in these like natural field data, like of people 294 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:08,876 Speaker 1: who actually have wonderful and terrible things happen, like winning 295 00:14:08,876 --> 00:14:11,356 Speaker 1: the LWE and so on, this is like one that 296 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:13,676 Speaker 1: seems to be a sure universal. 297 00:14:13,236 --> 00:14:16,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, that's great. That's great because I can I've 298 00:14:16,076 --> 00:14:17,476 Speaker 2: definitely felt that way, and I can imagine a lot 299 00:14:17,516 --> 00:14:20,036 Speaker 2: of people listening thinking okay, yeah, sure on average, but 300 00:14:20,716 --> 00:14:22,116 Speaker 2: you know me, not really. 301 00:14:22,476 --> 00:14:24,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is super important, right because a 302 00:14:24,556 --> 00:14:28,156 Speaker 1: real problem with these like cognitive errors is that even 303 00:14:28,156 --> 00:14:31,036 Speaker 1: when we learn how they work, they don't go away. Right, 304 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:34,236 Speaker 1: So I like literally have whole podcast episodes and whole 305 00:14:34,316 --> 00:14:37,636 Speaker 1: lectures about hedonic adaptation, but when I'm making a prediction 306 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:41,356 Speaker 1: about something happening, I get just as freaked out about it. 307 00:14:41,396 --> 00:14:44,316 Speaker 1: I get just as worried, Like I am just as 308 00:14:44,356 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 1: bad at predicting as everybody else. But I can kind 309 00:14:46,996 --> 00:14:49,516 Speaker 1: of remember the data and sort of course correct a 310 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:52,836 Speaker 1: little bit after the fact. And so I think that's important, right, 311 00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:55,156 Speaker 1: Like knowing about these biases doesn't make them go away. 312 00:14:55,516 --> 00:14:57,916 Speaker 1: It just makes you like have a little bit more awareness. 313 00:14:57,996 --> 00:15:00,156 Speaker 1: You can kind of update a little bit after the fact. 314 00:15:00,756 --> 00:15:02,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as you know, I studied visual perception 315 00:15:02,916 --> 00:15:05,156 Speaker 2: and undergrad and it was it was akin to you know, 316 00:15:05,236 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 2: the visual illusions and illusion, but you can't unsee it 317 00:15:07,876 --> 00:15:10,636 Speaker 2: exactly case of happiness, we can be a little bit 318 00:15:10,636 --> 00:15:14,676 Speaker 2: more intentional, deliverate and change our mental frames. But yeah, absolutely, 319 00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:16,796 Speaker 2: I think I'm sure this happens to a lot of 320 00:15:16,796 --> 00:15:18,996 Speaker 2: people as soon. Given the field we're in, Oh, you 321 00:15:19,076 --> 00:15:23,596 Speaker 2: must be so disciplined about eating and exercise and all 322 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:26,116 Speaker 2: these other things. And it's like, not really, we know 323 00:15:26,236 --> 00:15:29,396 Speaker 2: the tactics, but implementing them is a different matter altogether. 324 00:15:29,876 --> 00:15:32,636 Speaker 1: In fact, my next whole season of the podcast is 325 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 1: going to be about happiness challenges that I face on 326 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab. So fun, Yeah, so fun, but also 327 00:15:39,196 --> 00:15:40,876 Speaker 1: so personal and kind of so painful. 328 00:15:43,396 --> 00:15:45,916 Speaker 2: How fixed is this? So if I'm someone listening to 329 00:15:45,956 --> 00:15:49,756 Speaker 2: this podcast and I'm thinking, look, I'm committed to being happier, 330 00:15:49,796 --> 00:15:51,276 Speaker 2: I really want to be happier. I'm going to work 331 00:15:51,316 --> 00:15:53,836 Speaker 2: super super hard, Laurie, what do you have to tell 332 00:15:53,876 --> 00:15:56,116 Speaker 2: me in terms of hope in this domain. 333 00:15:56,756 --> 00:15:59,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's some bad news and good news, as 334 00:15:59,396 --> 00:16:01,156 Speaker 1: there often is in science. So the bad news is 335 00:16:01,156 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 1: that there is a heritable component to our overall subjective 336 00:16:04,436 --> 00:16:08,116 Speaker 1: well being. Like if you grew up with parents who 337 00:16:08,116 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 1: are really unhappy and you have the genes for unhappiness, 338 00:16:11,156 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 1: it's going to be harder for you to be happy 339 00:16:13,276 --> 00:16:15,636 Speaker 1: than it might be for somebody to whom happiness comes 340 00:16:15,676 --> 00:16:18,076 Speaker 1: a little bit more naturally. So there is a sort 341 00:16:18,076 --> 00:16:21,556 Speaker 1: of heritable component to happiness, but it's pretty tiny, right 342 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:23,596 Speaker 1: It's tinier than most of the other traits that we 343 00:16:23,676 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 1: have out there, and that means there's lots of room 344 00:16:26,036 --> 00:16:29,276 Speaker 1: for malleyability. And so the good news is that that 345 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:32,916 Speaker 1: range is really really flexible. It's much more flexible than 346 00:16:32,956 --> 00:16:35,556 Speaker 1: we think. Like, even if you're a natural kind of 347 00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:38,716 Speaker 1: set point right now might be feeling a little bit unhappy, 348 00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:41,356 Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily say that you're going to be stuck 349 00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:44,076 Speaker 1: right there for your whole life. There's probably a range. 350 00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:46,316 Speaker 1: You might not be like the happiest person on the planet, 351 00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:49,476 Speaker 1: but you can engage with strategies to become much happier 352 00:16:49,476 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 1: than you are right now. The problem is that we 353 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 1: do that the wrong way. The problem is that we 354 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:56,076 Speaker 1: do that by like trying to change our circumstances. We 355 00:16:56,156 --> 00:16:59,156 Speaker 1: try to go for the lotteries and the big college 356 00:16:59,196 --> 00:17:00,996 Speaker 1: winds as we were just talking about. We try to 357 00:17:01,076 --> 00:17:03,396 Speaker 1: engage in things that are just not going to feel 358 00:17:03,396 --> 00:17:05,956 Speaker 1: as happy as we think. The key to really changing 359 00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:07,996 Speaker 1: our happiness is that we need to realize the right 360 00:17:08,036 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 1: ways to do it. 361 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:13,916 Speaker 2: One really powerful finding is that even small tweaks in 362 00:17:13,956 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 2: the way we frame an experience can have a big 363 00:17:16,596 --> 00:17:19,236 Speaker 2: impact on the way that we process it from a 364 00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:22,596 Speaker 2: hedonic perspective. And so, can you talk about the role 365 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:26,956 Speaker 2: that expectations play in the way that we interpret in experience? 366 00:17:27,596 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, expectations are huge. I mean, wasn't it Shakespeare? 367 00:17:30,676 --> 00:17:32,996 Speaker 1: There's nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so. 368 00:17:33,156 --> 00:17:35,156 Speaker 1: I mean, this is like how basically all of our 369 00:17:35,196 --> 00:17:38,636 Speaker 1: psychology works. We just don't do it in objective terms. 370 00:17:38,636 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 1: We think in terms of some reference point, and it's 371 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:44,636 Speaker 1: also often some reference point that makes us feel kind 372 00:17:44,636 --> 00:17:47,436 Speaker 1: of crappy about whatever we've just gotten or achieved in 373 00:17:47,436 --> 00:17:50,676 Speaker 1: our own life. My favorite example of this comes from 374 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 1: the Olympics. So imagine that you're some amazing athlete, you're 375 00:17:54,996 --> 00:17:58,396 Speaker 1: an Olympian, and you win a silver medal, right, like 376 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:01,276 Speaker 1: your second best in the entire world in some sport. 377 00:18:01,796 --> 00:18:04,716 Speaker 1: You might think I would feel amazing, right, But it 378 00:18:04,756 --> 00:18:07,636 Speaker 1: turns out that if you actually analyze how silver medalists 379 00:18:07,716 --> 00:18:11,516 Speaker 1: experience receiving this sol metal, they're not feeling elated. They're 380 00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:14,676 Speaker 1: actually feeling awful. If you analyze their like emotional expressions 381 00:18:14,676 --> 00:18:18,236 Speaker 1: on the stand, like you see expressions of contempt discussed, 382 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:20,836 Speaker 1: like deep sadness right like, it looks like they've like 383 00:18:20,996 --> 00:18:23,356 Speaker 1: you know, lost a loved one or something. It's that terrible, 384 00:18:23,876 --> 00:18:25,796 Speaker 1: and you say, like, what is going on, Well, what's 385 00:18:25,836 --> 00:18:29,116 Speaker 1: going on is that they're evaluating based on an expectation, 386 00:18:29,196 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 1: a reference point. What's the obvious reference point? If you've 387 00:18:31,396 --> 00:18:33,916 Speaker 1: won silver, it's a gold medal. You didn't get that, 388 00:18:34,116 --> 00:18:36,516 Speaker 1: and you don't see that you've beat you know, millions 389 00:18:36,556 --> 00:18:38,476 Speaker 1: and millions of people around the world. You just see 390 00:18:38,676 --> 00:18:40,436 Speaker 1: I didn't do as good as I could have done. 391 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:42,676 Speaker 1: And what's super interesting is that if you analyze the 392 00:18:42,676 --> 00:18:46,596 Speaker 1: emotional expressions of bronze medalists, you see just the opposite. 393 00:18:46,716 --> 00:18:49,196 Speaker 1: They are elated, they are happy. Sometimes they're even happier 394 00:18:49,276 --> 00:18:51,356 Speaker 1: than the person who won the gold medal. And the 395 00:18:51,436 --> 00:18:53,596 Speaker 1: reason is that their reference point is totally different. What's 396 00:18:53,636 --> 00:18:55,436 Speaker 1: the reference point that's salling it? If you just want 397 00:18:55,476 --> 00:18:57,596 Speaker 1: a bronze medal, like you weren't going to get gold, 398 00:18:57,676 --> 00:19:00,796 Speaker 1: you are like many seconds or you know, many moments away, 399 00:19:00,876 --> 00:19:03,556 Speaker 1: right like many points away your reference point is like, 400 00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:05,516 Speaker 1: if I'd just done a little bit worse, I wouldn't 401 00:19:05,516 --> 00:19:07,996 Speaker 1: be up here at all, Like I would no metal, 402 00:19:08,396 --> 00:19:10,956 Speaker 1: no metal at all. Right, and so you are thrilled. 403 00:19:11,036 --> 00:19:13,036 Speaker 1: You're like, by the skin of my teeth, I'm up here, 404 00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:15,156 Speaker 1: and my parents are gonna be so proud. This is great, Right. 405 00:19:15,876 --> 00:19:18,116 Speaker 1: That's a power of reference points. Like we're not thinking 406 00:19:18,156 --> 00:19:20,676 Speaker 1: in terms of our objective performance. We're just thinking in 407 00:19:20,756 --> 00:19:24,276 Speaker 1: terms of how we did relative to some expectation. And 408 00:19:24,276 --> 00:19:27,196 Speaker 1: that's powerful because it means if we set the right expectations, 409 00:19:27,476 --> 00:19:30,116 Speaker 1: we could probably feel a lot happier with however we 410 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:30,876 Speaker 1: did objectively. 411 00:19:33,076 --> 00:19:36,436 Speaker 2: Still ahead, Laurie and I talk about science back strategies 412 00:19:36,516 --> 00:19:39,356 Speaker 2: for making yourself happier. We'll be back in a moment 413 00:19:39,596 --> 00:19:50,596 Speaker 2: with a slight change of plans. All right, So Lari, 414 00:19:50,836 --> 00:19:54,276 Speaker 2: let's talk through what the research says about how we 415 00:19:54,316 --> 00:19:59,876 Speaker 2: can become happier. Let's start with strong social relationships. This 416 00:19:59,916 --> 00:20:02,956 Speaker 2: seems to be like the number one thing. It's very, 417 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:05,076 Speaker 2: very very hard to be happy if you lack this, 418 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:06,156 Speaker 2: So tell me more. 419 00:20:06,556 --> 00:20:09,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, people like Marty Seligman and Ed Diner are these 420 00:20:09,116 --> 00:20:12,596 Speaker 1: super famous positive psychology researchers claim that social connection is 421 00:20:12,636 --> 00:20:15,716 Speaker 1: a necessary condition for high happiness, right. You cannot be 422 00:20:16,076 --> 00:20:18,476 Speaker 1: highly happy without it. And that's because, like we're in 423 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:21,276 Speaker 1: social primates, right, we really get lots of positive emotion 424 00:20:21,396 --> 00:20:23,676 Speaker 1: out of being with other people. We feel like our 425 00:20:23,676 --> 00:20:26,116 Speaker 1: life is more satisfying when we're close to others. And 426 00:20:26,156 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 1: there's tons of evidence that just people who spend more 427 00:20:28,716 --> 00:20:30,596 Speaker 1: time with the people they care about, and who just 428 00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:34,396 Speaker 1: spend more time with people all together wind up feeling happier. 429 00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 1: And importantly, this is true whether you're an introvert or 430 00:20:36,876 --> 00:20:38,716 Speaker 1: an extrovert. I sometimes hear from a lot of my 431 00:20:39,156 --> 00:20:41,476 Speaker 1: listeners who are introverts who say things like, Okay, that 432 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:44,716 Speaker 1: social connection thing sounds great for some extrovert like you, 433 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:48,316 Speaker 1: but for an introvert like me, that sounds miserable. And really, 434 00:20:48,356 --> 00:20:51,396 Speaker 1: what the data show are that if you're an introvert, 435 00:20:51,476 --> 00:20:53,956 Speaker 1: you do need some alone time, but you still get 436 00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:56,716 Speaker 1: the same kind of positive emotion boost from being around 437 00:20:56,716 --> 00:20:58,876 Speaker 1: other people, especially when you interact with other people in 438 00:20:58,916 --> 00:21:01,516 Speaker 1: like small settings, you know, calling a friend or hanging 439 00:21:01,516 --> 00:21:03,756 Speaker 1: out with someone you're really close to, right, And so 440 00:21:04,036 --> 00:21:06,316 Speaker 1: I think this is just a human universal that social 441 00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:08,156 Speaker 1: connection winds up making us happier. 442 00:21:08,596 --> 00:21:10,996 Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, are you even an extrovert? I feel like 443 00:21:10,996 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 2: you're kind of in your line not. 444 00:21:12,156 --> 00:21:13,836 Speaker 1: I get us of being an extra for all the 445 00:21:13,836 --> 00:21:16,396 Speaker 1: time because I talk about social connection, but you know me, 446 00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:19,636 Speaker 1: like I would look solo in my house all the time. 447 00:21:19,516 --> 00:21:21,476 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, just because you have a podcast doesn't make 448 00:21:21,516 --> 00:21:24,916 Speaker 2: you an extrovert, right exactly. Yeah. And I think I 449 00:21:25,036 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 2: definitely found a hit to my well being during COVID, 450 00:21:28,076 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 2: where it wasn't possible anymore to engage in small talk 451 00:21:30,756 --> 00:21:32,876 Speaker 2: with people that I would see to a coffee shop 452 00:21:33,076 --> 00:21:35,436 Speaker 2: or just waving and smiling to people on the street. 453 00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:39,276 Speaker 2: Those little moments were so precious, and I'd been taking 454 00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:42,356 Speaker 2: them for granted because when I lost that ability, that 455 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:45,836 Speaker 2: that part of my social fabric, I really felt affected. 456 00:21:46,076 --> 00:21:47,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think a lot of people were, not 457 00:21:47,796 --> 00:21:49,756 Speaker 1: just during COVID, but you know, there's tons of evidence 458 00:21:49,756 --> 00:21:52,676 Speaker 1: that these weak ties, these kind of quick conversations we 459 00:21:52,716 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 1: have with the barista at a coffee shop were just 460 00:21:54,996 --> 00:21:57,196 Speaker 1: like someone on the street, they wind up being really 461 00:21:57,196 --> 00:22:00,516 Speaker 1: important for our positive mood. Researcher Nick Epley, who's a 462 00:22:00,516 --> 00:22:03,516 Speaker 1: professor at the University of Chicago who studies this phenomenon 463 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 1: he calls undersociality, where we like don't take into account 464 00:22:06,476 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 1: our social connection as much as we should. He described 465 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:12,356 Speaker 1: happiness overall as a leaky tire. You know, you're kind 466 00:22:12,356 --> 00:22:14,436 Speaker 1: of happy for a while, but your happiness tires leak 467 00:22:14,476 --> 00:22:16,116 Speaker 1: in and you got to fill it up, and he 468 00:22:16,156 --> 00:22:18,676 Speaker 1: says that these quick conversations with strangers are like one 469 00:22:18,676 --> 00:22:20,716 Speaker 1: of the fastest ways to fill up your leaky tired. 470 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 2: One thing I've tried to do recently to strengthen social 471 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:27,796 Speaker 2: connections is just call people on the phone. I've just 472 00:22:27,796 --> 00:22:29,636 Speaker 2: started doing that, and I think it really just freaked 473 00:22:29,676 --> 00:22:31,276 Speaker 2: people out in the beginning because they're like, whoa, do 474 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:32,756 Speaker 2: we have like a scheduled time? 475 00:22:32,756 --> 00:22:33,516 Speaker 1: What happened right? 476 00:22:34,396 --> 00:22:36,756 Speaker 2: It's like four fourteen. I don't think we had a 477 00:22:36,796 --> 00:22:39,556 Speaker 2: call scheduled. This actually happened a couple weeks ago where 478 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:43,076 Speaker 2: Michael lewis a friend of both of ours and someone 479 00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:46,276 Speaker 2: who also has a pushkin podcast. I was just thinking 480 00:22:46,316 --> 00:22:48,076 Speaker 2: about him, so I gave him a phone call and 481 00:22:48,396 --> 00:22:50,676 Speaker 2: he picked up and was like, did you just butt 482 00:22:50,756 --> 00:22:52,636 Speaker 2: dial me? Maya like this has to be a butt 483 00:22:52,636 --> 00:22:54,836 Speaker 2: dial and I was like no, I just wanted to 484 00:22:54,876 --> 00:22:57,276 Speaker 2: say hello, and see how you were doing. Turned out 485 00:22:57,596 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 2: he was battling the flu, he had been in bed 486 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:02,236 Speaker 2: for a few days, and he loved the company and 487 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:04,436 Speaker 2: we had a great chat and it boosted his mood, 488 00:23:04,756 --> 00:23:07,596 Speaker 2: and it just built my confidence that those unexpected moments 489 00:23:07,636 --> 00:23:09,756 Speaker 2: where you just call people and connect with them can 490 00:23:09,756 --> 00:23:12,756 Speaker 2: be really powerful. But it takes a little bit of courage. 491 00:23:12,796 --> 00:23:14,236 Speaker 1: It does take a little bit of courage. I mean, 492 00:23:14,236 --> 00:23:16,396 Speaker 1: I think the problem with social connection is that there's 493 00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:19,556 Speaker 1: a little friction there, right, especially given the other things 494 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:21,996 Speaker 1: we have to do that aren't social connection, right, Like 495 00:23:22,196 --> 00:23:24,236 Speaker 1: you're picking up the phone and dialing it and calling 496 00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:26,996 Speaker 1: Mike Lewis, Like, there's a little awkwardness there. It's much 497 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:29,356 Speaker 1: easier to just like scroll on your Instagram or do 498 00:23:29,436 --> 00:23:31,996 Speaker 1: something dumb that kind of has this feeling of social 499 00:23:31,996 --> 00:23:34,396 Speaker 1: connection but isn't as social as we think. And so 500 00:23:34,436 --> 00:23:36,516 Speaker 1: I think one of the tasks of engaging in more 501 00:23:36,556 --> 00:23:39,196 Speaker 1: social connection is we have to overcome that like speed 502 00:23:39,276 --> 00:23:42,156 Speaker 1: bump of friction, cost of like a little bit of vulnerability, 503 00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 1: a little bit of work to kind of make those connections. 504 00:23:44,916 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, speaking of phones, let's talk about the role 505 00:23:49,236 --> 00:23:53,316 Speaker 2: of technology and our phones and what impact they have 506 00:23:53,596 --> 00:23:55,316 Speaker 2: on our on our social connections and then what we 507 00:23:55,316 --> 00:23:55,916 Speaker 2: can do about that. 508 00:23:56,476 --> 00:23:58,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean phones are so ironic, right. They were 509 00:23:58,956 --> 00:24:01,356 Speaker 1: literally built so that we could talk to other people, 510 00:24:01,476 --> 00:24:03,436 Speaker 1: like that is what the purpose of a phone was. 511 00:24:03,836 --> 00:24:06,156 Speaker 1: But now phones have become this tool that we can 512 00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:09,956 Speaker 1: use to look at our email, or check what's going 513 00:24:09,956 --> 00:24:12,276 Speaker 1: on in politics, or you know, look at a million 514 00:24:12,316 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 1: other factoids in the world. What started as a tool 515 00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:18,316 Speaker 1: just for connecting with other people has turned into, honestly, 516 00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 1: this terrible opportunity cost when it comes to connecting with 517 00:24:20,956 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 1: other people. How often have you been out at dinner 518 00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:26,476 Speaker 1: and looked over and seen some couple or they're like 519 00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:27,956 Speaker 1: both just looking at their phones and they have this 520 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:29,916 Speaker 1: precious time to talk to one another in real life, 521 00:24:29,956 --> 00:24:31,956 Speaker 1: but they're just like not actually speaking to one another. 522 00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:34,556 Speaker 1: Or sadly at times that I've done that myself, where 523 00:24:34,876 --> 00:24:36,916 Speaker 1: my husband saying something and I was like, oh uh, 524 00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 1: could you say that again? What I was looking at 525 00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:41,436 Speaker 1: my email? Right? And this is terrible, right, It means 526 00:24:41,436 --> 00:24:43,996 Speaker 1: that we might be missing out on something really important 527 00:24:44,036 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: with the social connections we have in real life because 528 00:24:46,116 --> 00:24:48,716 Speaker 1: we're like looking at some dumb stuff on the Internet, 529 00:24:49,076 --> 00:24:51,836 Speaker 1: and so how can we deal with this opportunity cost 530 00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:54,396 Speaker 1: in like a healthy way? And one of my favorite 531 00:24:54,396 --> 00:24:57,796 Speaker 1: strategies comes from the journalist Catherine Price. She has this 532 00:24:57,876 --> 00:25:01,156 Speaker 1: strategy that she calls WWW, which is an acronym that 533 00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:04,436 Speaker 1: stands for what for, why now? And what else? And 534 00:25:04,516 --> 00:25:06,716 Speaker 1: so her idea is that whenever you happen to notice 535 00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 1: that your phone in your hand, you ask those questions, 536 00:25:09,516 --> 00:25:11,476 Speaker 1: what for? Was there some purpose that I was looking? 537 00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:13,436 Speaker 1: You know, I was really looking at the weather? Or 538 00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:15,796 Speaker 1: did it just like wind up there? Because like with 539 00:25:15,876 --> 00:25:17,996 Speaker 1: no purpose in mind, I'm just like scrolling through whatever? 540 00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:18,316 Speaker 2: Right? 541 00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:21,476 Speaker 1: Why now? Right? This is the sort of emotional question, 542 00:25:21,636 --> 00:25:23,276 Speaker 1: like what caused me to pick up my phone? Was 543 00:25:23,316 --> 00:25:26,156 Speaker 1: it some functional reason? Or maybe it was boredom or 544 00:25:26,196 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 1: maybe I was feeling awkward? What's the kind of queue 545 00:25:28,756 --> 00:25:31,276 Speaker 1: that caused you to pick up your phone? And then, 546 00:25:31,316 --> 00:25:34,836 Speaker 1: perhaps most important, what else? That's the opportunity cost question? 547 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:36,076 Speaker 1: What am I missing out on? 548 00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:36,996 Speaker 2: That's the big one. 549 00:25:37,236 --> 00:25:39,036 Speaker 1: That's a big one, right, is like am I just 550 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:41,436 Speaker 1: like not being present in the world, or am I 551 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:44,516 Speaker 1: ignoring my husband? Or am I avoiding something? Right? Like, 552 00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:47,116 Speaker 1: you know, what's the what's the opportunity cost of being 553 00:25:47,116 --> 00:25:49,396 Speaker 1: on your phone right now. And I love this acronym 554 00:25:49,476 --> 00:25:51,716 Speaker 1: because it doesn't say like, get off your phone all 555 00:25:51,756 --> 00:25:54,396 Speaker 1: the time, right, but it allows you to mindfully notice 556 00:25:54,476 --> 00:25:57,316 Speaker 1: what's happening when you're on your devices, and how those 557 00:25:57,316 --> 00:25:59,236 Speaker 1: devices are making you feel, and what you happen to 558 00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:00,956 Speaker 1: be missing out on. It kind of brings to light 559 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:02,956 Speaker 1: the things that you might be missing by being on 560 00:26:02,996 --> 00:26:03,636 Speaker 1: your phone. 561 00:26:03,916 --> 00:26:06,196 Speaker 2: I love to also talk about another happiness tip that 562 00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 2: I know has a lot of personal resonance for you, 563 00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:10,756 Speaker 2: because this is something you've really struggled with. Can you 564 00:26:10,756 --> 00:26:12,356 Speaker 2: talk about time affluence? 565 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:16,236 Speaker 1: Ah? Yes, time affluence. This is the subjective sense that 566 00:26:16,276 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 1: we have some free time, something that until recently was 567 00:26:19,276 --> 00:26:22,116 Speaker 1: very foreign to me because I experienced the opposite, which 568 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:25,236 Speaker 1: is what researchers called time famine, where you're literally starving 569 00:26:25,276 --> 00:26:27,916 Speaker 1: for time. And research shows that time famine feels a 570 00:26:27,916 --> 00:26:30,036 Speaker 1: lot like hunger famine, like it works a lot like 571 00:26:30,076 --> 00:26:32,516 Speaker 1: that in your body, where you're literally you're activating your 572 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:34,956 Speaker 1: fight or flight system and so on. And it turns 573 00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:37,796 Speaker 1: out that time famine is really bad for your happiness. 574 00:26:38,156 --> 00:26:40,476 Speaker 1: And so the answer is that we need to kind 575 00:26:40,516 --> 00:26:43,796 Speaker 1: of free up more time. We need to prioritize our time, 576 00:26:44,276 --> 00:26:46,396 Speaker 1: and one way to do that, researcher actually will In 577 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:50,316 Speaker 1: suggest is to like trade off more time for money. 578 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:52,636 Speaker 1: Often we can do these things with our money that 579 00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 1: give us back more time, but we don't usually frame 580 00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:57,156 Speaker 1: it like that. So take going out to eat, head 581 00:26:57,196 --> 00:26:59,276 Speaker 1: out to eat, you know, you and your husband Jimmy, 582 00:26:59,316 --> 00:27:01,716 Speaker 1: head out to eat. That's like some food that you 583 00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:03,996 Speaker 1: didn't have to cook yourself. Those are dishes you didn't 584 00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:06,156 Speaker 1: have to prepare, you didn't need to look up the recipe. 585 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:07,876 Speaker 1: Going out to dinner with your husband might be a 586 00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:10,156 Speaker 1: time savings of what like an hour and a half 587 00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:12,916 Speaker 1: two hours. The question is like, what did you use 588 00:27:12,996 --> 00:27:15,436 Speaker 1: that time for? Right, So this is a simple active 589 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:18,116 Speaker 1: reframing that we can use with something as silly as 590 00:27:18,116 --> 00:27:19,876 Speaker 1: going out to dinner to realize like, hey, that was 591 00:27:19,916 --> 00:27:22,356 Speaker 1: a spot where I spent some money to give myself 592 00:27:22,396 --> 00:27:25,316 Speaker 1: back some time. And Willin's points out that, you know, look, 593 00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:28,956 Speaker 1: this might sound privileged to some folks who have discretionary income, 594 00:27:29,196 --> 00:27:31,596 Speaker 1: but when she finds us at every level, if you 595 00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:35,036 Speaker 1: have any discretionary income whatsoever, the more you spend that 596 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 1: discretionary income to get back time, the happier you are. 597 00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:39,876 Speaker 1: So this isn't just for like rich people who get 598 00:27:39,916 --> 00:27:42,276 Speaker 1: to go out to like, you know, like Michelin starred 599 00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:44,396 Speaker 1: restaurants all the time. This is any of us. Can 600 00:27:44,436 --> 00:27:46,236 Speaker 1: you know, pay the kid next door to like pick 601 00:27:46,316 --> 00:27:48,396 Speaker 1: up the yard or clean up the snow or take 602 00:27:48,396 --> 00:27:50,996 Speaker 1: out the trash. Right, These like simple ways of spending 603 00:27:50,996 --> 00:27:53,356 Speaker 1: some money to get back time can be important, but 604 00:27:53,636 --> 00:27:56,516 Speaker 1: I think a bigger strategy is to take time to 605 00:27:56,876 --> 00:27:59,716 Speaker 1: remember that you should use the time you do have wisely. 606 00:28:00,436 --> 00:28:03,156 Speaker 1: The journalist Bridget Shultz coined this term that I love 607 00:28:03,276 --> 00:28:06,516 Speaker 1: called time confetti, which refers to these little pieces of 608 00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:08,916 Speaker 1: time that are floating around. You know that five minutes 609 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:11,716 Speaker 1: your Zoom meeting ends early, or the ten minutes when 610 00:28:11,756 --> 00:28:15,876 Speaker 1: your kid falls asleep quicker than expected. We never recognize 611 00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 1: that those are big chunks of time, so we just 612 00:28:17,596 --> 00:28:19,756 Speaker 1: kind of blow that time confetti away. We just sort of, 613 00:28:19,756 --> 00:28:21,676 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, check our email or scroll 614 00:28:21,716 --> 00:28:26,676 Speaker 1: on Instagram scroll. If you add it up, it winds 615 00:28:26,716 --> 00:28:29,516 Speaker 1: up being a lot of time. In fact, like researchers 616 00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:31,516 Speaker 1: have found that we actually have more free time in 617 00:28:31,516 --> 00:28:34,436 Speaker 1: our time confetti now than we did back in the day, 618 00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:36,596 Speaker 1: it's just kind of broken up into these tiny chunks 619 00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 1: so we don't notice it. And So a strategy for 620 00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:42,716 Speaker 1: improving your time affluence and your happiness is what can 621 00:28:42,756 --> 00:28:44,756 Speaker 1: you do to make good use of that time confetti. 622 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:47,516 Speaker 1: Maybe that's when you call a friend you know who 623 00:28:47,596 --> 00:28:49,756 Speaker 1: accused you of butt dialing him. Maybe that's the time 624 00:28:49,996 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 1: when you like take time to do a quick deep breath. 625 00:28:53,396 --> 00:28:55,356 Speaker 1: Maybe like that's the time when you engage in better 626 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:58,116 Speaker 1: self talk with yourself. We can use those time confetti 627 00:28:58,156 --> 00:29:00,276 Speaker 1: moments to do any of these strategies that help us 628 00:29:00,316 --> 00:29:02,636 Speaker 1: feel better and that can be really helpful for our happiness. 629 00:29:03,876 --> 00:29:06,596 Speaker 2: I'd love to talk about my favorite happiness boosting strategy, 630 00:29:06,716 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 2: which is being other oriented. 631 00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:12,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is an important one, especially these days, 632 00:29:12,476 --> 00:29:15,156 Speaker 1: because I think this is something that culture gets really wrong, right, 633 00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:17,636 Speaker 1: Like I think these days, whenever we talk about happiness, 634 00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:20,676 Speaker 1: we hear about things like self care or treat yourself. 635 00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:23,196 Speaker 1: It's like self self self. We assume that happiness is 636 00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:25,916 Speaker 1: just about investing in ourselves. But if you look at 637 00:29:25,956 --> 00:29:28,356 Speaker 1: happy people, that's not what happy people are doing. Happy 638 00:29:28,396 --> 00:29:32,156 Speaker 1: people tend to be much more other oriented. They're volunteering, 639 00:29:32,156 --> 00:29:35,156 Speaker 1: for charities, they're spending time on the people they care about. 640 00:29:35,196 --> 00:29:38,036 Speaker 1: They're doing nice things for others, whether that's with their 641 00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:39,876 Speaker 1: money or with their time. They just tend to be 642 00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:42,036 Speaker 1: a lot more focused on other people's happiness than their 643 00:29:42,036 --> 00:29:44,916 Speaker 1: own happiness. And research shows that even if that's not 644 00:29:44,956 --> 00:29:47,796 Speaker 1: your natural inclination, you can engage with that a little 645 00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: bit more. Researchers like Liz Done in her colleagues at 646 00:29:50,556 --> 00:29:52,596 Speaker 1: the University of British Columbia do these studies where they 647 00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:55,916 Speaker 1: hand subjects money on the street but kind of force 648 00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 1: them to spend that money in particular ways. You're either 649 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:01,276 Speaker 1: forced to spend that money on something self care ish, 650 00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:03,556 Speaker 1: like you do something nice for yourself, or you're forced 651 00:30:03,596 --> 00:30:06,076 Speaker 1: to spend that money on other people. And what she 652 00:30:06,116 --> 00:30:08,036 Speaker 1: finds is, at the end of the day, those people 653 00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:10,116 Speaker 1: who are forced to spend mone on others wind up 654 00:30:10,116 --> 00:30:12,596 Speaker 1: feeling happier than those that were forced to spend the 655 00:30:12,636 --> 00:30:15,396 Speaker 1: same amount of money on something that was more for themselves, 656 00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:18,036 Speaker 1: that was more selfish. And so I love this study 657 00:30:18,076 --> 00:30:20,516 Speaker 1: because it suggests that even if that's not your natural inclination, 658 00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:22,716 Speaker 1: you can kind of add in more stuff where you're 659 00:30:22,756 --> 00:30:24,636 Speaker 1: just like a little bit more focused on other people, 660 00:30:25,076 --> 00:30:27,156 Speaker 1: and that the evidence suggests that will naturally make you 661 00:30:27,196 --> 00:30:27,876 Speaker 1: feel happier. 662 00:30:29,036 --> 00:30:31,396 Speaker 2: I feel like I've heard before that the happiest people 663 00:30:31,636 --> 00:30:33,316 Speaker 2: are the people who don't spend a lot of time 664 00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 2: thinking about their own happiness. Is that true? Like, is 665 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:37,196 Speaker 2: that what research shows? 666 00:30:37,756 --> 00:30:39,996 Speaker 1: I think yes and no, right, I think because of 667 00:30:40,036 --> 00:30:42,476 Speaker 1: all these misconceptions, in some ways, we do have to 668 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:44,716 Speaker 1: focus on our happiness or we might be doing it wrong. 669 00:30:45,116 --> 00:30:49,076 Speaker 1: Like I think, if we're pretending that these new circumstances 670 00:30:49,116 --> 00:30:50,836 Speaker 1: will make us, you know, happy, and we have to 671 00:30:51,156 --> 00:30:54,476 Speaker 1: have this specific achievement or this great outcome, like we're 672 00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:56,596 Speaker 1: going to get that wrong. And so I do think 673 00:30:56,676 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 1: that we want to be thinking about happiness, but we 674 00:30:58,676 --> 00:31:00,516 Speaker 1: want to be thinking about it in the right way. 675 00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:02,516 Speaker 1: What we assume people would do when I think about 676 00:31:02,556 --> 00:31:04,956 Speaker 1: happiness is like me, me, me, you know, put in 677 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:07,156 Speaker 1: all these strategies. We don't think, Oh, they'll just take 678 00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:09,276 Speaker 1: time to like be with other people, and they'll I'll 679 00:31:09,316 --> 00:31:11,516 Speaker 1: stop trying to achieve as much because they'll recognize the 680 00:31:11,556 --> 00:31:13,596 Speaker 1: importance of time affluence, and we'll take lots of time 681 00:31:13,636 --> 00:31:15,836 Speaker 1: off and rest, you know, or they'll you know, volunteer 682 00:31:15,876 --> 00:31:17,596 Speaker 1: for charity and do this nice stuff for others. That's 683 00:31:17,596 --> 00:31:21,756 Speaker 1: not our stereotype of people narcissistically pursuing happiness, and so 684 00:31:21,796 --> 00:31:24,436 Speaker 1: I think it's not the pursuit of happiness that's the problem. 685 00:31:24,716 --> 00:31:26,916 Speaker 1: It's the fact that we generally tend to do it wrong, 686 00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:28,996 Speaker 1: and if we start to do it right, you know, 687 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:32,476 Speaker 1: we'll feel happier and be better off because we were 688 00:31:32,476 --> 00:31:34,596 Speaker 1: thinking about our happiness and trying to find good ways 689 00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:35,156 Speaker 1: to pursue it. 690 00:31:36,636 --> 00:31:39,036 Speaker 2: What advice do you have for people listening to this 691 00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:43,236 Speaker 2: who don't feel licensed to be happy or feel guilty 692 00:31:43,236 --> 00:31:45,436 Speaker 2: being happy because they take a look around them and 693 00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:48,676 Speaker 2: they see so much suffering the world. It just it 694 00:31:48,716 --> 00:31:53,036 Speaker 2: feels like it's almost too jarring to try and entertain 695 00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:54,116 Speaker 2: happiness for themselves. 696 00:31:54,796 --> 00:31:56,836 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I'll start with saying I get it, 697 00:31:56,956 --> 00:31:58,596 Speaker 1: like I look around in the world and I'm a 698 00:31:58,596 --> 00:32:01,956 Speaker 1: happiness expert, and I think exactly the same thing. But 699 00:32:02,036 --> 00:32:05,396 Speaker 1: I think that idea comes from a certain assumption that 700 00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:08,436 Speaker 1: we have about like positive emotions and happiness. I think 701 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:11,356 Speaker 1: we feel guilt feeling happy when the whole world is 702 00:32:11,396 --> 00:32:13,996 Speaker 1: falling apart, in part because we think, well, if I'm happy, 703 00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:16,516 Speaker 1: I'm probably not going to do anything about it, right, 704 00:32:16,556 --> 00:32:18,676 Speaker 1: I'm just going to ignore the fact that the world 705 00:32:18,756 --> 00:32:21,316 Speaker 1: is on fire, like if I feel good about it. 706 00:32:21,356 --> 00:32:21,876 Speaker 2: Placency. 707 00:32:21,996 --> 00:32:24,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like a like a Pollyanna hypothesis 708 00:32:24,236 --> 00:32:26,516 Speaker 1: where I'll just be like, it's like the dog and 709 00:32:26,516 --> 00:32:28,316 Speaker 1: that meme with the fire where he's sitting in the 710 00:32:28,316 --> 00:32:30,796 Speaker 1: fire and he's like, this is fine. Like if we're happy, 711 00:32:30,836 --> 00:32:32,436 Speaker 1: we're like, this is fine. I don't care if the 712 00:32:32,436 --> 00:32:35,436 Speaker 1: world's on fire. But that's a hypothesis about how the 713 00:32:35,516 --> 00:32:37,716 Speaker 1: human mind works. It's a hypothesis that when we're in 714 00:32:37,756 --> 00:32:40,756 Speaker 1: a positive mood, we're more likely to ignore the bad 715 00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:42,796 Speaker 1: stuff going on in the world, and we're more likely 716 00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:45,076 Speaker 1: to kind of just engage in inaction rather than doing 717 00:32:45,076 --> 00:32:47,956 Speaker 1: something good about it. And RESEARCHERR. Constantin kush Leaf at 718 00:32:47,956 --> 00:32:52,036 Speaker 1: Georgetown has actually tested this. He's asked the question, Okay, 719 00:32:51,356 --> 00:32:53,916 Speaker 1: who are the people who are out there doing the 720 00:32:54,036 --> 00:32:57,076 Speaker 1: like really important social justice things in life? For example, 721 00:32:57,076 --> 00:32:59,476 Speaker 1: who's going to a Black Lives Matter protest or who's 722 00:32:59,516 --> 00:33:02,156 Speaker 1: taking climate action, like not just being anxious about the 723 00:33:02,196 --> 00:33:04,796 Speaker 1: fact that the climate is changing. It's scary right now, 724 00:33:04,836 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 1: but really doing stuff to like protect it. And what 725 00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:10,996 Speaker 1: he finds is that people's positive mood winds up predicting 726 00:33:11,356 --> 00:33:14,116 Speaker 1: the amount of social justice action that people take. In 727 00:33:14,116 --> 00:33:16,436 Speaker 1: other words, like, the people who are in the best 728 00:33:16,476 --> 00:33:18,396 Speaker 1: mood are the ones who are going to the protests, 729 00:33:18,396 --> 00:33:21,156 Speaker 1: who are engaging in climate action and so on. And 730 00:33:21,396 --> 00:33:23,716 Speaker 1: whenever I say that result, I'm always like, oh, yeah, 731 00:33:23,756 --> 00:33:25,356 Speaker 1: of course that had to be the case, right, Like, 732 00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:28,076 Speaker 1: if you're too depressed a function most days and you're 733 00:33:28,116 --> 00:33:31,396 Speaker 1: feeling overwhelmingly anxious, you're not like getting out there to 734 00:33:31,476 --> 00:33:33,916 Speaker 1: do stuff, like you're just like in bed, like not 735 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:37,116 Speaker 1: able to do anything. These data are great because I 736 00:33:37,116 --> 00:33:39,836 Speaker 1: think they give me a license to say, oh, if 737 00:33:39,876 --> 00:33:42,396 Speaker 1: I want to actually change the bad stuff in the world, 738 00:33:42,796 --> 00:33:44,756 Speaker 1: I do need to focus on my mental health. I 739 00:33:44,756 --> 00:33:46,996 Speaker 1: do need to focus on my positive mood. It matters. 740 00:33:47,396 --> 00:33:50,476 Speaker 1: It is the path to having the bandwidth and the 741 00:33:50,516 --> 00:33:52,836 Speaker 1: wherewithal to actually make the changes that we want to 742 00:33:52,836 --> 00:33:53,516 Speaker 1: see in the world. 743 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:55,676 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's the best answer I could have 744 00:33:55,716 --> 00:33:59,316 Speaker 2: possibly imagined. I didn't know about that research. And you know, Laurie, 745 00:33:59,356 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 2: I'm reflecting in this moment on my own life, and 746 00:34:02,276 --> 00:34:03,876 Speaker 2: you're giving me so much food for thought, and I'm 747 00:34:03,916 --> 00:34:06,556 Speaker 2: realizing that, Okay, that's the macro stuff where you're trying 748 00:34:06,596 --> 00:34:09,156 Speaker 2: to fight these big social justice issues. When I do 749 00:34:09,196 --> 00:34:10,916 Speaker 2: you get that the happiest periods of my life, I 750 00:34:10,956 --> 00:34:13,796 Speaker 2: was a better friend, I was a better daughter, I 751 00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:16,636 Speaker 2: was a better mentor, I was a better coworker. I 752 00:34:16,676 --> 00:34:20,276 Speaker 2: was just better to everyone in my life during those periods. 753 00:34:20,356 --> 00:34:23,716 Speaker 2: And so this is operating at a micro and at 754 00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:25,916 Speaker 2: a macro level in terms of our positive impact on 755 00:34:25,956 --> 00:34:26,356 Speaker 2: the world. 756 00:34:26,876 --> 00:34:29,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, And there was a really early paper by a 757 00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:32,236 Speaker 1: Yale professor, Peter Salive, who I know you know well, 758 00:34:32,636 --> 00:34:34,796 Speaker 1: on what he called the feel good do good effect, 759 00:34:35,116 --> 00:34:36,796 Speaker 1: which is like, if you happen to put people in 760 00:34:36,836 --> 00:34:39,916 Speaker 1: a positive mood, then they do these little tiny acts 761 00:34:39,916 --> 00:34:42,516 Speaker 1: of kindness towards the people around them. These were like 762 00:34:42,636 --> 00:34:45,796 Speaker 1: old studies where you'd have people hear some positive news 763 00:34:45,796 --> 00:34:47,596 Speaker 1: on the radio and they'd be more likely to like 764 00:34:47,636 --> 00:34:49,716 Speaker 1: help someone who drop their contact, you know, in the 765 00:34:49,796 --> 00:34:52,676 Speaker 1: mall or something like that, or you kind of have 766 00:34:52,796 --> 00:34:55,116 Speaker 1: people listen to happy music at the gym and they'll 767 00:34:55,156 --> 00:34:58,116 Speaker 1: be more likely to help someone who needs some assistance 768 00:34:58,156 --> 00:35:00,356 Speaker 1: with their study of handing out leaflets or something like 769 00:35:00,356 --> 00:35:03,196 Speaker 1: that these the ideas that when we're feeling good, we 770 00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:05,436 Speaker 1: end up doing good both for the people who are 771 00:35:05,436 --> 00:35:07,756 Speaker 1: close to us in our lives and just like people generally. 772 00:35:07,876 --> 00:35:11,116 Speaker 1: And again, I think we just have this like incorrect 773 00:35:11,196 --> 00:35:14,116 Speaker 1: view that like if we're good, if we're feeling good, yeah, 774 00:35:14,196 --> 00:35:16,516 Speaker 1: we'll just ignore everybody else. We'll just kind of focus 775 00:35:16,516 --> 00:35:18,716 Speaker 1: on our own good. But it's the opposite, you know. 776 00:35:18,756 --> 00:35:21,756 Speaker 1: So many positive emotions are what's called pro social emotions, 777 00:35:21,796 --> 00:35:24,916 Speaker 1: things like gratitude and so on, Like they make us 778 00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:28,436 Speaker 1: want to do good for other people and so ergo, 779 00:35:28,596 --> 00:35:30,156 Speaker 1: if we want good things to happen in the world, 780 00:35:30,156 --> 00:35:32,076 Speaker 1: we might want to focus on people's mental health and 781 00:35:32,076 --> 00:35:34,716 Speaker 1: give them more of those positive emotions. 782 00:35:35,436 --> 00:35:37,876 Speaker 2: I love it all right, Thanks so much, Laurie. Happy World, 783 00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:39,116 Speaker 2: Happiness Day, Happy. 784 00:35:38,836 --> 00:35:40,796 Speaker 1: World, Happiness Day. A Mayah, thanks so much for having 785 00:35:40,796 --> 00:35:41,316 Speaker 1: me on the show. 786 00:35:41,556 --> 00:36:13,596 Speaker 2: Absolutely, thanks for coming, Hey, thanks so much for listening, 787 00:36:14,116 --> 00:36:17,396 Speaker 2: and thank you also for your incredible support of my 788 00:36:17,556 --> 00:36:20,716 Speaker 2: new book, The Other Side of Change. We shared a 789 00:36:20,756 --> 00:36:23,516 Speaker 2: preview of the opening chapter last week in the slight 790 00:36:23,636 --> 00:36:27,076 Speaker 2: Change feed, and I was so moved by your enthusiasm 791 00:36:27,196 --> 00:36:30,156 Speaker 2: and how so many of you were desperate to finish 792 00:36:30,196 --> 00:36:33,556 Speaker 2: Olivia's story. If you're interested in reading or listening to 793 00:36:33,596 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 2: the other side of Change, we've included a link in 794 00:36:36,196 --> 00:36:38,436 Speaker 2: our show notes, and you can also find it at 795 00:36:38,556 --> 00:36:41,956 Speaker 2: Change withthmaya dot com slash book. We'll be back in 796 00:36:41,996 --> 00:36:45,076 Speaker 2: a week with another episode of A Slight Change of Plans. 797 00:36:45,316 --> 00:36:58,836 Speaker 2: I'll see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 798 00:36:58,916 --> 00:37:02,676 Speaker 2: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 799 00:37:02,676 --> 00:37:08,236 Speaker 2: family includes our showrunner Alexandra Garritan, our lead producer Megan Luvin, 800 00:37:08,516 --> 00:37:13,276 Speaker 2: our associate producer Sonya Gerwitt, and our sound engineer Erica Huang. 801 00:37:13,756 --> 00:37:17,356 Speaker 2: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith 802 00:37:17,476 --> 00:37:21,156 Speaker 2: helped arrange the vocals. Special thanks to Daphne Chen for 803 00:37:21,196 --> 00:37:24,556 Speaker 2: her editorial support of this episode. A Slight Change of 804 00:37:24,596 --> 00:37:28,436 Speaker 2: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 805 00:37:28,436 --> 00:37:32,116 Speaker 2: to everyone there, and of course, a very special thanks 806 00:37:32,196 --> 00:37:49,556 Speaker 2: to Jimmy Lee.