1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of I Heart Radio 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener Discretion advised, Hi, 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: welcome to a very special episode of Noble Blood. I 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: am so excited to be joined here by Dr Lindsay 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: fitz Harris, the amazing historian. She actually wrote a book 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: called The Butchering Art about the Scottish surgeon Robert Lister, 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: which was a huge help for me as I was 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: researching and writing my novel Anatomy, a love Story. But 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: she's written a new book, The Face Maker, a visionary 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: surgeon's battle to men the disfigured soldiers of World War One, 11 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: all about sort of, I would say, the unsung hero 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: of plastic surgery, Harold Jillies, who just I mean from 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: this book, I knew nothing about him. He's an incredible man. Lindsay, Hi, welcome. 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: excited to talk to you about this, as you say, 16 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: really kind of unknown story about the grandfather of plastic surgery. 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: So let's sort of back up a bit. How did 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: you come to this story? I asked myself about many times, 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: and it took five years to research and right so 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: with the Butchering Art, which was about Victorian surgery and 21 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: all the horrible things we used to do before anesthesia 22 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: and germ theory. Um, you don't have to navigate complications 23 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: like patient confidentiality, which you do in the twentieth century. 24 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: And I wasn't really prepared to take that on. What 25 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: it happened was I have a PhD in the history 26 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: of science and medicine from Oxford, but I call myself 27 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: a storyteller these days. And I didn't know much about 28 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: Harrow Gillies or World War One in fact, but I 29 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: knew that there was a really harrowing story there, and 30 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: I knew that when I started the book, I wanted 31 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: to drop the reader right in the middle of the 32 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: battle to see what that felt like and smelt like, 33 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: and what was it like to be in those trenches. 34 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: You know, they used to say that you could smell 35 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: the front before you could even see it, So I 36 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: really wanted to build that vivid picture for readers. Oh 37 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: my god, there's a early on. I feel like the 38 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: first thing I circled was you talked about like a 39 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: bubbling mass of worms coming out of someone's wound. It's 40 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: just so and it's horrible, you know. And I don't 41 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: pull punches. I don't do it in the butchering art. 42 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: But it's not because I relish the gore and the violence. 43 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: It's because I feel like I wouldn't be doing these 44 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: patients any justice if I wasn't explaining exactly what that 45 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: was like for them. And so Private Percy Claire who's 46 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: hit in the face at the beginning of the book, 47 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: he writes this amazing diary about his experiences, which is 48 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: why I used him, and he talks about how this 49 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: bullet went right through his face and he laid on 50 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,399 Speaker 1: the battlefield and he thought he was going to die, 51 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: and it was a real struggle just to get the 52 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: stretcher bearers to take him off that field because they 53 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: also thought he was going to die. It's that horrible 54 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: thing where they have to protect the people they think 55 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: of the best chance of survival. Yeah, and you know, 56 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: a face is very vascular, so anybody who's had a 57 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: face wounded leads a lot, even a minor cut. You know, 58 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: there are photos in the Face Maker, and I didn't 59 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: include those lightly. I actually consulted with a disability activist 60 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: over this. I didn't want it to be medical voyeurism. 61 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: But I also think it's important that we look at 62 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: these men's faces because during are in the war, they 63 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: were often forced to sit on blue benches so that 64 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: the public knew not to look at them. It was 65 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: very isolating experience for them. So I think that we 66 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: need to look at them today and we need to 67 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: not put them on that metaphorical blue bench. I thought 68 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: that was a brilliant note that you wrote in the 69 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: beginning of the beginning of the book explaining your decision 70 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: to show the photographs. And yes, some of them are 71 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: hard to look at, but I think they also go 72 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: to show how amazing Dr Jilli's work was. Yes, yeah, 73 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: and it's Gillies with Okay, I had asked you before, 74 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: like right before this podcast started, but I will give 75 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: the excuse that it's said and I am and left. 76 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's somebody. I mean. Also, if you've read it, 77 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: Jilly's in your head, because there was. My friend Karen 78 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: Abbott also kept making that mistake when I was in 79 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: New York, and I was like, once it's in your head, 80 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: it's hard to kind of erase it. But yeah, it 81 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: is Gillies. But yeah, the work he could do before 82 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: antibiotics over a hundred years ago, with no textbooks to 83 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: guide him to rebuild these faces as extraordinary. Plastic surgery 84 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: did pre date the first for war. In fact, the 85 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: term is coined in se At that time, plastic meant 86 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: something that you could shape or you could mold, so 87 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: in this case a patient skin or soft tissue. Really, 88 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: those early attempts focused on very small areas of the face, 89 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: such as the ears and the nose. What Gillies is 90 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: able to do is it goes much further beyond restructuring 91 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: entire faces that have been obliterated by war. So backing 92 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: up to sort of your story, you're an American who 93 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: then studied and got her PhD at Oxford. What was 94 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: that journey like for you? What was that decision like? 95 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: And then how did you come to medical history specifically? 96 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: So we both are from Illinois, your Park and I'm 97 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: from Arlington Heights. Oh my god, we're literally neighbors. We're 98 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: literally neighbors. And I can't get rid of this Chicago accident. 99 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: I've been in the UK now for twenty years. It's 100 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: it's here to stay, Oxford trying to beat it out 101 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: of me. It's here to stay. I went to Oxford 102 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: because they had a great program in medical history, which 103 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: is a really niche subject, and I did my masters 104 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: and my PhD. And then I got really burnt out intellectually. 105 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: So I started a blog called the Surgeons of Apprentice, 106 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: and I started to write for a general audience and 107 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: I found that really rewarding. But what really happened that 108 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: kind of was the catalyst into my career was my 109 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: ex husband left me in very abruptly. He wrote me 110 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: an email. I was in Chicago. This was a ten 111 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: year relationship and the email an email. Yeah. So I 112 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: returned to the UK. His stuff is gone, he's disappeared. 113 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: He then reports me as illegally in the UK. He 114 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: says that the marriage is over. She can't stay, so 115 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: they take my passport. I can't work. So during that 116 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: time I worked on a five page petition to remain 117 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: in the UK. I had no money. I fought him 118 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: in court and I ended up writing the proposal for 119 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: the Butchering Art and selling it. And it changed my life. 120 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: And you know, I say that that you know Joseph Lister, 121 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: whom the books about, I say that he saved a 122 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: lot of lives but he also saved mine because this 123 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: book just lifted me out into a whole new career 124 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: in situation. And I love engaging the public about medical history. Now, 125 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I mean, that is an amazing story. 126 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm so glad for your sake, but also for all 127 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: of our sakes that you're doing this work. What I 128 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: think is so incredible about your writing is it's deep. 129 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: I mean academic level history obviously, but at a level 130 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: that anyone can read. It reads like a novel. It's fascinating. 131 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: That are just amazing. I mean, I love Eric Larson's books, 132 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: and I'm good friends with him. If anybody has read 133 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: his books, narrative nonfiction is is what I love to do. 134 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: It's it's as you say, it reads like a novel. 135 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: It's all true. I think that even people who don't 136 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: like history might like medical history because everybody knows what 137 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: it's like to be sick, especially coming out of a pandemic. 138 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: So you might not be interested in history and politics 139 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: and work. You might know what it's like to be sick, 140 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 1: and you might be able to relate to medical history. 141 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: You know, what would happen if you had a toothache 142 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: in seventeen two, or what would happen if you had 143 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: to have a legra moved in eighteen forty three, And 144 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: that's kind of where I come in as a medical historian. 145 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: So obviously, as you alluded to, the situation with Robert 146 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: Lister was very different than it is in nineteen seventeen, 147 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,559 Speaker 1: But were the obstacles of surgery at nineteen seventeen where 148 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: sort of war away in technology and what did we 149 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: still have to achieve? Well, so at the point of 150 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: the First World War, surgeons understood germ theory, so that 151 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: was at least good, but actually in a weird way 152 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: that created problems because they had grown up on aseptic 153 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: and antiseptic techniques, so they weren't used to identifying infections. 154 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: So at the beginning of the war there is a 155 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: high rate of infections. You can imagine the mud of 156 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: the trenches and it's just very unhygienic, and these surgeons 157 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: are quickly and hastily stitching these wounds up to stop 158 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: the hemorrhagene, and in doing so they're literally sealing up 159 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: these men's faith. They're stitching in this bacteria, So that 160 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: does become a problem. Also, anesthesia hasn't really progressed since 161 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: eighteen forty six when ether was first discovered, which I 162 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: talked about in the Butchering Arb. And that was a 163 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: wild time, by the way, guys, because when doctors discovered ether, 164 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: they started drinking it and taking it themselves, and they 165 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: had these ethereal experiences. That's where we get the term ethereal. 166 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: So it's like the wild wild West of Edison. But 167 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: nothing had really progressed since eighty With anesthesia, so you're 168 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: talking about a rag with chloroform or a rudimentary mask, 169 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: and in fact, Harold Gillies, at one point in the 170 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: face maker is leaned over a patient and the patient 171 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: is breathing ether back into Gilly's face. So this is 172 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: a real problem for your facial reconstructive surgeon. So you 173 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: have advances happening in anesthesia in parallel with plastic surgery 174 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: for these very reasons, because putting a mask over a 175 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,599 Speaker 1: damaged face was problematic anyway, would obscure the area that 176 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: Gillies needed to work on, but also it caused other 177 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: kinds of issues in the operating theater. Oh my god, 178 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: of course. So who was Harold Gillies? How did he 179 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: come to be this pre eminent surgeon. So he was 180 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: an E. N T surgeon before the war ear nose 181 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: and throats, so he had a very good understanding of 182 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: head anatomy. Well, what happens is he volunteers with the 183 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: Red Cross. He ends up going to France and he 184 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: meets this character named Charles Vladier. And anybody who's read 185 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: The Butchering Art will know that I love telling the 186 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: story about Robert Liston, who was the fastest knight in 187 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: the West End. He could take your your leg off 188 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: and under three seconds. Vladier is the Robert Liston of 189 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: my story because he's bigger than life. He's an American 190 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: French dentist. He has a Rolls Royce which he retrofits 191 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: with a dental share and he literally drives it to 192 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: the front under a hail of bullets. This guy is 193 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: a legend. I mean, there's so many weird stories too, 194 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: because people they were just throwing themselves into these dangerous situations. 195 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: And it's Vladier who teaches Harold Gillies about one the 196 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: importance of dentistry when rebuilding a face, and also just 197 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: shows him this desperate need for facial reconstruction. Near the front. 198 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: So that's really what sets it all off. You know, 199 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: in the Butchering Art you talk a lot about sort 200 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: of the distinction between barber surgeon of the early eighteen 201 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: hundreds that transitioned into what we now consider surgery. Being 202 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: a barber surgeon was not at like the same academic 203 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: level as being a physician. Where sort of are we 204 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: in that understanding in the early twentie entry. Yeah, I mean, so, 205 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: as you say, in the earlier periods, so you're looking 206 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: at like the seventeenth eighteen centuries, you had these people 207 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: called barber surgeons, and they would pick the lights out 208 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: of your hair, and they would pull teeth, and most 209 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: people would see the barber surgeon rather than a physician, 210 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: which was very expensive. Also, the barber surgeons would blood 211 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: lat patients, and so that's where we get the red 212 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: and white barber's pole, because they would advertise by putting 213 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: these bloody rags on the pole, and it would twist 214 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: in the wind and it would create that red and 215 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: white pole that we're all familiar with. Oh my god, 216 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: as I said, most and I have I have a 217 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: barber's pole somewhere in this People can't hear me because 218 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: we're on a podcast right now. But I have a 219 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: lot of weird stuff in my office because I think 220 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: that objects are a great way into the past. But 221 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: the barber surgeons were sort of the first porter call 222 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: for most people in that period. Surgeons in general were 223 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: seen as people who worked with their hands, so it 224 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: was seen as less than being a physician, which was 225 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: someone who worked with their mind. So the physician rarely 226 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: touched the patient or laid their hands on the patient. 227 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: It was a much more cerebral activity. By the time 228 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: World War One comes about, you know, surgeons are much 229 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: more respected, thanks in part to Joseph Lister in his 230 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: work in the nineteenth century and this kind of professionalization 231 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: of surgeons at this time. So Gillies was, you know, 232 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: at the top of his game as an E. N. 233 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: T surgeon. He was working in a very lucrative practice 234 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: in London. But when the war starts he finds his 235 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: new passion, which is plastic surgery, which isn't a subspecialty 236 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: of medicine at this point. And it's really after the 237 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: war that it becomes quite tenuous because at that point 238 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: he has to decide whether he's going to pursue plastic surgery, 239 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: because again, at this point it wasn't really a specialty 240 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: in medicine. Amazing. What I'm always curious when I bring 241 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: on historians, what was your research process? Like? Obviously this 242 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: book goes a multi year endeavor and it absolutely shows 243 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: in the detail and depth of research, But where did 244 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: you start? Well, my process is a lot of tears 245 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: and going why did I take this on? I mean, 246 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: I think that as a narrative nonfiction writer, a lot 247 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: of my job is getting rid of material because I 248 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: don't like to overwhelm readers. I don't know if anybody 249 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: listening out there, you know, for me, I get turned 250 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: off if I go into a bookstore and there's like 251 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: this huge TomEE on John Adams, Like, I mean, that's 252 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: too much of John Adams, right, So I like my 253 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: books to be really fast paced. I want people who 254 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: never thought about facial reconstruction or World War One to 255 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: enjoy it and not feel swamped by the material. Now, 256 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: when you're dealing with World War One, there is so 257 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: much material. I mean it's literally there's so many letters 258 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: and diaries. This is the time of war poetry. Everybody's 259 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: writing about their experiences. So you can get very overwhelmed 260 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: by it. I said at the beginning of the book 261 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: that The Face Maker is not a definitive history of 262 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: World War One. It's certainly not a definitive history of 263 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: war medicine, and it's not even a definitive history of 264 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: Harold Gillies. I really cherry picked a number of soldiers 265 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: that really stood out to me, and so there's about 266 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: twelve of them that are featured in the book, because again, 267 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: I feel like it would just get not miss, that 268 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: would get overwhelming. So a lot of what I do 269 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: really is just absorbing material and then getting rid of 270 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: it for everybody. So I I kind of a digest 271 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: it for you so that you don't have to do 272 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: all of that. That's sort of the noble blood ethost 273 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: we try to condense. It's like the sweet spot is 274 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: thirty minutes. If I can tell this the whole story 275 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: in thirty minutes without getting bogged down in the extraneous details, no, 276 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: we we don't. We don't have time. Who's got time 277 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: for the big John Adams biography? You know, I certainly don't. 278 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: I mean, there's an art to those long form biographies, 279 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: But for me, again, like you know, I write in 280 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: the style of Eric Larson, or hopefully people feel that way, 281 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: and he writes such thrilling books. I mean, you forget 282 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: that these are true stories. You know, he just wrote 283 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: a book on Churchill, and you think, well, I know 284 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: everything there is to know about Churchill. Yeah, he tells 285 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: it in such a way that you forget in the moment. 286 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: It feels very real and it feels like you're actually there, 287 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: and that's what I hope I can achieve with my books. 288 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it does. I read this in like two days. 289 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: It does read like a novel, like a story, especially 290 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: because you focus on the individuals as characters. They feel 291 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: like real people and sort of to that end, do 292 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: you have a favorite case study that you went into 293 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: in this book. No, it's a good question. There's a 294 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: couple of men who are featured in the book. I mean, 295 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: Percy Claire, as I said, opens it. But I think 296 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: if there was a favorite, it's this guy named Private 297 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: Walter Ashworth. Ashworth is injured on the first day of 298 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: the Battle of the Song, which if you don't know 299 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: anything about World War One, you probably recognized the Battle 300 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: of the Song because it was a blood bath of 301 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: the hundred thousand British soldiers who took place in the 302 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: advance that day. Sixty thousand were killed or injured. Never 303 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: before or since has a single army suffered such losses 304 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: on a single day and a single battle, So it 305 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: was horrible. Now Ashworth survives, but in doing so, a 306 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: bullet rips through his face and removes part of his jaw. 307 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: At that point he falls forwards, which is key to 308 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: his survival, and he lays on the battlefield for three days. 309 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: People are like, how could you lay on the battlefield 310 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: for three days? First of all, he had no jaws, 311 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: so he couldn't really scream for help. But the other 312 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: aspect was that the structure bearers became targets themselves, so 313 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: it took a lot to convince them that you were 314 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: worthy of saving. It could take as many as twelve 315 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: meant to remove a single man off the battlefield, so 316 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: it's very laborious and dangerous. So Ashworth lays there for 317 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: quite a long time. He's finally rescued. Now, as I said, 318 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: key to his survival was falling forward, and that was 319 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: because a lot of times these men fell backwards and 320 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: they would choke on their own blood. Or they would 321 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: choke on their tongues because their tongues would slip back 322 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: into their throat, which was awful. So just getting off 323 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: the battlefield was literally half the battle for these men. 324 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: He ends up in Gilly's care his fiance breaks off 325 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: their engagement. That was not uncommon for these men. But 326 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: then later his fiance's friend gets word of this and 327 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: she begins writing him at the hospital, and soon they 328 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: fall in love and soon they get married. But one 329 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: of the sad bits about his story is that when 330 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: he's discharged from the British Army, he goes back to 331 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: work as a tailor's assistant and his boss makes him 332 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: work at the back of the shop because he doesn't 333 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: want Ashworth to frighten the customers. And so I think 334 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: one of the strongest themes in The Face Maker is 335 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: that not all wounds during the First World War are 336 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: inflicted on the battlefield. That's so heartbreaking when you think 337 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: about the devastation that happened there, and then also that 338 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: the devastation that came home. Yeah, and that's why I 339 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: said Gillies didn't just mend these broken faces, he mended 340 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: their broken spirits. But I think it's really important also 341 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: to remember that Gillies is a product of facial biases 342 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: of his day. I mean, arguably, we wouldn't need a 343 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: Harold Gillies if we could have accepted these men's faces 344 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: as they were. There was a need to restore function. 345 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: Of course, you want to make sure that someone can 346 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: swallow and to eat and to breathe. But Gillies was 347 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: going far beyond this. I often say that this was 348 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: a time when losing a limb made you a hero, 349 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: but losing a face made you a monster to a 350 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: society that was largely intolerant of facial differences. That's a 351 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: great quote. I mean that that really sums it up. 352 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: It's the movie. Yeah, it's the movie tagline. Yeah, you're 353 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: out in l a. I'm We're always thinking about movie taglines, 354 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: and you know how things can get adapted, and that's 355 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: always the big dream as the writer. But all of 356 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: that aside, I actually would love to see an adaptation 357 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: because if you think about Hollywood, there's this really lazy 358 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: trope about evilness within disfigurements. So yeah, oh my god, 359 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: you have a Darth Vader, you have Baltimore, you have Blowfeld, 360 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: you have Harvey Dent becomes evil after he becomes man like. 361 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: He's fine until he is injured. So I would love 362 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: to see an adaptation, if only because I'd love to 363 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: see these disfigured men as the heroes of their own story, 364 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: which they absolutely were at the time. Oh that's wonderful, 365 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: you know. And another thing, I also read that Harold 366 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: Gillies went on to sort of pioneer gender affirmation surgeries. Yes, 367 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: this is amazing. So in the apologue I talk about 368 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: his postwar career, and he does work through World War Two. 369 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: He's actually working on genital reconstruction of sailors who are 370 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: injured during that war. And his cousin works very famously 371 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: on the burned pilots, and they become known in Britain 372 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: as the Guinea Pig Club. In fact, I think there 373 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: are still some guinea pigs still alive. It's it's like 374 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: the world's most exclusive club. And they got a ton 375 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: of media at the time for these burns and for 376 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: the reconstructive process. In nine Harold Gillies performs the first 377 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: successful falloplasty on a train ends man named Michael Dylan. 378 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: This is an incredible story for so many reasons, not 379 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: least it happened in nine. What happened was Dylan eventually 380 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: was outed by the British press. It was terrible, there 381 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: was a media circus. Dylan ended up fleeing Britain. But 382 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: Harold Gillies really stood by him, and I think that 383 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: really speaks to his progressiveness at the time, both as 384 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: a surgeon and a human being. Absolutely, I mean being 385 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: able to push the envelope in terms of just human dignity. 386 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: It feels like he was like, yeah, did you really 387 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: think that people should control their identities? Even in he 388 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: moves into the cosmetic realm as well, because a lot 389 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: of people asked, you know, what is plastic surgery? We 390 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: come today, but if you think of plastic surgery is 391 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: a heading and then underneath you have reconstructive and cosmetic, 392 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: and both of those continued to be very important to 393 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: the practice of plastic surgery. But Gillies himself, he moved 394 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: into the cosmetic realm after the war, and he would 395 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: say that, you know, reconstructive surgery was about returning something 396 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: to quote normal, that was his word, but that the 397 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: cosmetic realm was about surpassing the normal. And he was 398 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: cited by both of those challenges wonderful, you know. And 399 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: as we spoke a little bit before we started recording, 400 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: Gillies actually has a living relative talking about how he 401 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: got in contact with him. This is really funny. So 402 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: the Butchering Art. If people have listened to the audiobook 403 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: of the Butchering Art, it's read by a voice actor 404 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: named Ralph Lister. This just happened to be coincident. He 405 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: just happens to be related to Joseph Lister. In fact, 406 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: when my publisher came to me with various actors, I said, wait, 407 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: is Ralph Lister related to Joseph Lister? And they and 408 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: they say, oh, yeah, he is. And I was like, well, okay, 409 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: I don't even care what he sounds like. He's got 410 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: to read it. That's just too weird. And he's like 411 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: a real audiobook narrator. I'm looking aim up now he's done, like, 412 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, dozens of audio books. Yeah, it was just 413 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: a total coincidence. It's not like, you know, I went 414 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: and sought this guy out. So he did a great 415 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: job with the Butchering Art. And then I found out 416 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: that Harold Gillies has a very famous great great nephew 417 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: named Daniel Gillies. He's been in The Vampire Diaries and 418 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: various other television shows, and so I tweeted at him 419 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: and I said, well, Daniel Gillies should read the Audible book, 420 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: and he tweeted back and said, yeah, let's do it. 421 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: So he's actually recorded it. It's been brilliant. I guess 422 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: as he was recording it, he would stop and occasionally say, oh, 423 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: I didn't know that about my ancestor. He of course 424 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: knew a bit about Gillies, but you know, and his 425 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: father wrote me too and said that this book is 426 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: so wonderful because Harold Gillies was about to cease to 427 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: exist in people's imaginations and now we can live again 428 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: through the Facemaker. That's so sweet. I imagine if you're 429 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: an actor and you get to read a book and 430 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: know that this is like a direct ancestor of you, 431 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: that's probably just such a weird. Yeah. I actually we'd 432 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: love to do like a joint event at some time 433 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: and talk about this because I just think it would 434 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: be so because you know, Daniel Gillies being an actor 435 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, he is in the business of image, and 436 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: so was Sir Harold Gillies. That makes time image is 437 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: very important, so it would be interesting to kind of 438 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: have a little chat with him about, you know, his 439 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: process of learning about Gillies through this book. So yeah, 440 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: it was just really a joy. And actually someone left 441 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: a review of the audible book that said they thought 442 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: that this was kind of a gimmick at first, but 443 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: Daniel Gillies is so chapro and he did such a 444 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: great job with the reading of it, so I think 445 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: people listeners have been generally very happy with it. I 446 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: also have to say I was like looking at his 447 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: picture being like, where do I know this guy from? 448 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: And he's in because I didn't watch the Vampire Diaries, 449 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: so maybe I should. He's in Spider Man too, the 450 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: like Sam Raimi one and he plays Mary Jane Watson's 451 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: like perfect fiance. He's like a football quarterback astronaut with 452 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: like oh my gosh. Oh he's had a beautiful face. 453 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: He has the face that is a platonic ideal where 454 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: you're like, I know and right, And I said, I said, 455 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: what is the You know, it's ironic that Harold Gillies 456 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: has this great great nephew who has this perfect masculine face. 457 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: And as I dream up my adaptations and stuff. I 458 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: used to think like, oh, he should play Harrold Gillis 459 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: and that I was like, no, he should play one 460 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: of the soldiers. His face is ruined and restored by 461 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: Harrow Gillies and the man un rapid and it's like 462 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: this beautiful face. But yeah, he's a very good looking man. Amazing. 463 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: It's just just like, what a perfect coincidence that it 464 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: all comes together. Yeah. Absolutely, So when you were, uh, 465 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: in the metaphorical trenches of this sort of I don't 466 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: want to say like grewsome research, but so much of 467 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: World War One is so heavy and heartbreaking. What do 468 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: you do to take care of yourself? But you're like 469 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: a mental break well with the pandemic as you know 470 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: out in l A. I mean, we were locked down 471 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: and having this book during that time was also terrible 472 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: on some level. But my new husband, who have been 473 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: married to now for quite a few years, he's a 474 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: caricaturist for a show over here called Spitting Image, and 475 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: he's an illustrator, and so we're working on a children's 476 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: book which we're still working out the title for that book, 477 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: which will be out next year, and it's going to 478 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: be an illustrated romp through medical history, all the kind 479 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: of grossest diseases and what doctors tried to do. So 480 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: that's been a nice creative relief. And then also I've 481 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: now sold my third book, which is going to be 482 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: called Sleuth Hound, and it's about Joseph Bell, who was 483 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: the real life inspiration for Sherlock Holmes, was Conan Doyle's professor. 484 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: It's going to be a romp through Victorian forensics. So 485 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: I can't wait. I hope we can have a chat 486 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: about that because I think it's going to really be 487 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: in your wheelhouse. Oh my got I already love it. 488 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: Please send me a copy. I get an advanced copy. 489 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm excited about that one because it lets 490 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: me go back to the nineteenth century. It feels like 491 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: slipping into a comfortable, warm bath. I don't have to 492 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: deal with patient confidentiality or anything like that. And it's 493 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: going to be really fun looking at the various crime 494 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: techniques in their early infancy at that time. The one 495 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: thing I do have to say, sort of as like 496 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: my self disclaimer, because this is noble blood and we 497 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: usually find the noble connection. Harold Gillies was knighted. He 498 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: was yes, absolutely, So he was knighted a little bit late, 499 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: I would say, actually he should have received his knighthood 500 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: bit earlier after the war, and there was a feeling 501 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: amongst his colleagues that he had been sort of overlooked. 502 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: But he did eventually received his knighthood and he was 503 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: really pleased about it. And actually that's how I came 504 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: up with the name the Face Maker, because it wasn't 505 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: until I was working on the Apologue that I came 506 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: across a letter to Gillies congratulating him on his knighthood, 507 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: and it was addressed to dear face Maker. And I 508 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: such a perfect title. I mean, you probably know the 509 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: hell of titles and subtitles and all the things that 510 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: go into kind of making a book successful. And with 511 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: the Butchering Art, I sold it as the Butchering Art. 512 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: It remained the Butchering Art, but the Face Maker. There 513 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: were so many different titles. There was one that was 514 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: war Torn, and we went through a lot of different iterations, 515 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: but I think I finally nailed at the Face Maker. 516 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: And the cover as well, which was designed by my 517 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: husband Adrian Teal. It pays homage to Gilly's book The 518 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: Principles and Art of Plastic Surgery, in which the cover 519 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: pictures Gilly's hands holding the scalpel. So this cover is 520 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 1: illustrated and it shows the hand of a surgeon, but 521 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: in the blade you see the reflection of a bandaged soldier. 522 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: So I like it because it gives the sense that 523 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: this is a book not just about one man but 524 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: about many men. Oh, that's so great. And then there's 525 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: also another cover that the British cover that, yeah, so 526 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: this one, So it's different publishers as you know, you know, 527 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: different covers. Everybody asked me that the British and Penguin 528 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: really nailed this, so I had like, really no notes 529 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: on this one because again this is a podcast, so 530 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: people can't picture it. But it's basically an illustrated cover 531 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: and it's a silhouette of a Tommy from World War One. 532 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: In his face is made up a composite of many 533 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: different faces, and it's it's kind of disturbing, which I 534 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: think is good. You know, I think, like, you know, 535 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: people need to know that they're entering into this violent, 536 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: graphic book. But I do think that there's redemption and 537 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: there's hope. But you know, you've got to keep it real. 538 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: It's the past, and I don't like to sugarcoat it 539 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: for people. And I will also say that, like the 540 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: fingers holding the scalpel on the cover are bloody, but 541 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: it's like a cartoon blood. It's not like, yeah, it's 542 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: totally you could read this book in public and no 543 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: one's going to be Yeah. It has a bit of 544 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: a like a you know, nineteen fifties the the US 545 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: cover it has like a movie poster feel to its, 546 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: kind of like it was so hard again my US. 547 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if you have ever had any cover 548 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: issues where yeah, I'm nodding. Sorry again. Every every writer 549 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: is like, oh, we've always had like that moment where 550 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: the publishers goes, here's your cover and you're like, oh no, 551 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: all right. Yeah. So the original iteration for the U 552 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: s cover looked like a puzz a book like that 553 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: you buy your grandmother, and it had Victorian font which 554 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: was all wrong for this. So I really kind of 555 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: took control and thankfully Adrian is an artist and he 556 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: helped guide me through that. It helps to have very 557 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: visual people, you know, circulating around you. So we finally 558 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: nailed it. But it will be interesting to see what 559 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: the foreign covers are, because it's going to be translated 560 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: into about fifteen languages. So, oh my god, that's incredible. Well, 561 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: thank you so much for I mean, this book, for 562 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: telling the story of Harold Giles in the world. Gillies, 563 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: Jesus Gillies. Oh my god, don't worry. It's because I 564 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: read it and I didn't have his exactly, had some 565 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: great great grand nephew telling the story of Sir Harold 566 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: Gillies to the world. And thank you so much for 567 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: having this conversation. I've been such a fan for so long. 568 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: This is just like we gotta get drinks when I'm 569 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: in l A. Oh absolutely, okay, thank you, thank you 570 00:26:51,720 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: so much. Noble Blood is a production of I Heart 571 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood 572 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: is hosted by me Danish Wortz. Additional writing and researching 573 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: done by Hannah Johnston, hannah's Wick, Miura Hayward, Courtney Sunder 574 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: and Laurie Goodman. The show is produced by rema Il Kayali, 575 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: with supervising producer Josh Thayne and executive producers Aaron Mankey, 576 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from I 577 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 578 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.