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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is.

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Speaker 1: An Academy Award winning filmmaker whose work has captured some

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Speaker 1: of the most iconic figures in American music, film, and television.

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Speaker 1: Morgan Neville's twenty thirteen film Twenty Feet from Stardom won

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Speaker 1: the Oscar for Best Documentary Feature. A few years later,

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Speaker 1: his twenty eighteen film about Fred Rogers, Won't You Be

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Speaker 1: My Neighbor, became the highest grossing biographical documentary of all time.

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Speaker 1: Neville has directed films about subjects ranging from Keith Richards

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Speaker 1: to Anthony Bourdain, from Orson Wells to Steve Martin and

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Speaker 1: Paul McCartney. In addition to his Academy Award, Neville has

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Speaker 1: earned a Grammy, an Emmy, and a Peabody Award for

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Speaker 1: his work. A native of southern California, Neville studied Colonial

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Speaker 1: American history at the University of Pennsylvania. He began his

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Speaker 1: career as a journalist and later founded his film company,

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Speaker 1: Tremolo Productions in nineteen ninety nine. Neville's most recent film,

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Speaker 1: Lorne profiles the creator of Saturday Night Live. Having made

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Speaker 1: films about subjects both living and deceased. I was curious

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Speaker 1: what Morgan Neville finds unique about each type of project.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's a saying in the documentary community that

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Speaker 3: the dead or the better because you don't have to

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Speaker 3: deal with the real person, you know, But I actually

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Speaker 3: kind of love both. I mean, I love the excavation

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Speaker 3: of trying to paint a portrait if somebodyho's not around.

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Speaker 2: Why did they say the dead or the better?

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Speaker 3: Just because you don't have to deal with the ego

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Speaker 3: and the complications that come with the living things without.

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Speaker 2: And without getting into details. We're not out to embarrass anybody.

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Speaker 1: Give us an example, what are the difficulties when you

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Speaker 1: deal with the living icon vanity?

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Speaker 2: You know how I look, angles and things like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're trying to make a documentary, you're often

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Speaker 3: filming in unflattering situations that aren't well lit, and they're

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Speaker 3: not wearing makeup or whatever.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: So just people wanting to have a sense of control,

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Speaker 3: and people who generally have a sense of control over

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Speaker 3: everything in their life, but they have to give that

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Speaker 3: up to make a documentary, which can be incredibly uncomfortable

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Speaker 3: for some people. So you know, I feel like over

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Speaker 3: the years, I've earned enough of a trust that people

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Speaker 3: actually be afraid they or they just know that whatever

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Speaker 3: they're going to go through, it's going to be worth

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Speaker 3: it in the end. So Steve Martin was like that,

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Speaker 3: McCartney was like that, Lorne got there, but it took

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Speaker 3: a long time to get there.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get to lorn in a minute, because

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Speaker 1: your new film is about Lorne. But I realized that,

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Speaker 1: like when you go and do this, for example, about Wells,

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Speaker 1: why Wells, like using him as an example of someone

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Speaker 1: who's just so overpowering his legacy.

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Speaker 2: Why did you? Were you commissioned or you did it

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Speaker 2: on your own?

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Speaker 3: No, it was my idea. I mean I loved Wells

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Speaker 3: growing up. You know, it was a film nut. But

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Speaker 3: the film he made f for Fake. It's a kind

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Speaker 3: of a documentary, but it's also kind of an anti documentary.

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Speaker 3: It completely influenced me when I was thinking about making

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Speaker 3: documentaries in the beginning. And I remember Wells. You know,

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Speaker 3: my dad showed me Wells movies when I was a kid,

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Speaker 3: and you know, so it was somebody who I always

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Speaker 3: looked up to. But the legend of this last movie

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Speaker 3: of his that he had never finished the Other side

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Speaker 3: of the Wind. I thought, if I could ever get

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Speaker 3: my hands on that footage, I'd love to make a

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Speaker 3: documentary about that last chapter of Welles's life. And Wells

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Speaker 3: is another person who had the persona and the man

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Speaker 3: were They were two different things in the beginning, and

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Speaker 3: they became one thing. You know, he became the persona.

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Speaker 3: Wells was somebody who was trapped by early success without

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Speaker 3: a doubt. So you know, the end of his life,

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Speaker 3: he makes this movie. For seven years, he works on

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Speaker 3: this movie. He never finishes it. And I've heard from

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Speaker 3: many many people that he had many opportunities to finish

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Speaker 3: the film and he never realized he did. You know,

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Speaker 3: there was always an act of self sabotage, you know,

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Speaker 3: or an you know, there's always an excuse not to

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Speaker 3: finish the film. Because he knew whatever he ever did

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Speaker 3: in his life, he was going to be judged against.

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Speaker 1: He'd rather welcome into what dinner party have and regaining

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Speaker 1: people with anecdotes about Citizen Kane.

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Speaker 2: And didn't he dining out on Citizen Kane?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but he would complain about that too. He said,

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Speaker 3: everybody wanted to have lunch with him, but nobody wanted

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Speaker 3: to give him money to make movies. But I've heard

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Speaker 3: from a number of different people at different studios at

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Speaker 3: different times that they did offer him some money to

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Speaker 3: finish and he never actually took them up on it.

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Speaker 1: Right, Wells is somebody who his posthumous shadow that he

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Speaker 1: cast is kind of not kind of it is overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: Wells is somebody who I don't think ever had a

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Speaker 1: serious interview in his life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he did terse.

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Speaker 1: He's Cavott and he's telling stories about Churchill bowing to

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Speaker 1: him and all these jokes and so farth and he's

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Speaker 1: very charming, very glib. Yeah, I don't think Mick Jagger's

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Speaker 1: had a serious interview in thirty years when he really

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Speaker 1: opened up about his musician I would never want to

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Speaker 1: talk to people about their love life and their arrest,

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Speaker 1: record or whatever, And with Jagger, I thought, I want

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Speaker 1: to talk to him about musicianship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I mean I've interviewed Jagger

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Speaker 3: a number of times. You know, Jagger was taught by

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Speaker 3: Andrew Logldham and all these people in the sixties that

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Speaker 3: you're going to be oppositional, you know, so having interviewed

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Speaker 3: Mick a number of times. I know, whatever I'm going

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Speaker 3: to pose it in a question, he will disagree with it.

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Speaker 3: So you almost want to go the opposite way with

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Speaker 3: the direction of the question because he is just by

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Speaker 3: his nature he will disagree with you.

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Speaker 2: And what do you think that is?

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Speaker 3: Because the Stones were the band who were disagreeable. They

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Speaker 3: were like the anti Beatles, so they said, you're the

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Speaker 3: bad guy. So just the way they were taught to

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Speaker 3: do interviews in the sixties was just be disagreeable, Siman.

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Speaker 1: I would talk about them. I did the Beatles Channel.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Paul at his home. You know, the Beatles

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Speaker 1: were movie stars. The Beatles were the Marx Brothers. The

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Speaker 1: Beatles were an act and the Stones are not an act.

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Speaker 1: The Stones are one front man, a kind of second

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Speaker 1: Banana with Keith and his personality. And I said in

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Speaker 1: the Beatles were four people, four unique identifiable. The Beatles

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Speaker 1: became the Beatles as largely as as actors as they

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Speaker 1: didn't musicians, and the musicianship was just mind blowing.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, have you ever been commissioned to do a film?

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Speaker 3: I have, you know, like I got a call from

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Speaker 3: Paul McCartney's manager saying would you be interested, and said, yes, yes,

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Speaker 3: I would be interested. So there are things calls that

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Speaker 3: come in all the time of somebody who would once

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Speaker 3: to know if I'm interested, and those can be some

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Speaker 3: of my favorite films. I was a Beatles freak my

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Speaker 3: whole life, and I loved Wings and all that. But

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Speaker 3: mister Rogers was my childhood who was like deeply embedded

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Speaker 3: in me, and that was me coming across a commencement address.

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Speaker 3: He gave it Middlebury University on YouTube and me just

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Speaker 3: watching it and somehow just struck me profoundly that this

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Speaker 3: was a voice I was not hearing in the culture,

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Speaker 3: you know, something deeply empathetic. I mess this kind of

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Speaker 3: radical kindness that mister Rogers was about. And then I

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Speaker 3: went down a wormhole watching more and more mister Rogers.

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Speaker 3: One night, I woke up in the morning, I turned

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Speaker 3: to my wife and I said, I think I need

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Speaker 3: to make a Mister Rogers.

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Speaker 2: Document or with a decision based on what.

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Speaker 3: It's funny, because it was totally instinctual, it was really

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Speaker 3: just and all these things are. When I instantly say yes,

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Speaker 3: I want to do it, that's always a great sign

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Speaker 3: you know, whether it's somebody coming to me or me

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Speaker 3: stumbling across something. But I just know because I'm going

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Speaker 3: to give years of my life to these projects, so

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Speaker 3: I need I have to really really care about them.

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Speaker 1: But Fred Rodgers' life seat where it is a career,

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Speaker 1: seems so hermetic. He's in a certain path, I know,

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Speaker 1: and like, what makes you decide you want to go deeper?

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Speaker 3: Seeing these speeches he gave later, I just felt like,

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Speaker 3: this is a voice we don't have in the culture.

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Speaker 2: It's a set off.

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Speaker 3: The set, you know later in life. He would, you know,

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Speaker 3: universities or elsewhere, And after watching a bunch of them,

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Speaker 3: I just thought, I need this voice. And it's interesting

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Speaker 3: because I started that film the month before the twenty

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Speaker 3: sixteen election. Originally I was going to call that film

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Speaker 3: the Radical Mister Rodgers. And the day the election, I

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Speaker 3: called my producer and said, we can't call this film

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Speaker 3: the Radical mister Rogers, and we called it once should

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Speaker 3: be my neighbor. But it was the film I worked

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Speaker 3: on for the first year of the Trump presidency, and

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Speaker 3: that was my therapy for dealing with the first year.

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Speaker 2: Of the Trump Good therapy, good choice.

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Speaker 3: But when that film came out. I think it connected

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Speaker 3: in such a big way because for the exact reason

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Speaker 3: I felt I needed that voice people, decency, decency, kindness, grace,

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Speaker 3: you know these things that he stood for. That humanity, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that we don't value enough. Again, it's like an instinctual thing.

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Speaker 3: But if it works for me, I deal, it'll work

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Speaker 3: for an audience.

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Speaker 1: I want to get to Lauren eventually, obviously, But like

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Speaker 1: McCartney's a good example of you know, you see him,

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Speaker 1: footage of him. McCartney is somebody who's coming along a jetway.

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Speaker 1: The press is corralled in some pen, the Beatles are

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Speaker 1: walking by on some ramp. There's no human being alive

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Speaker 1: with more extant footage than him. Yes, maybe Muhammad Ali. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you see him and you decide how am I

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Speaker 1: going to cleave through this? Was there a thought about

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Speaker 1: that completely?

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Speaker 3: I've devoured every Beatles documentary and I've read most of

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Speaker 3: the books, you know, and so I know all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: I know what he says about things, and I know

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Speaker 3: he's been interviewed more than almost any human. So my

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Speaker 3: job was to tell this chapter that I thought was

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Speaker 3: pretty undertold actually, which is post Beatles from the moment

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Speaker 3: the Beatles break up till the moment John dies, essentially.

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Speaker 3: And I also knew, like most people, he has a

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Speaker 3: jukebox of anecdotes that when you ask him about high

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Speaker 3: High or live and Let Die or whatever, he'll tell

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Speaker 3: the same story he always tells. I knew in the

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Speaker 3: beginning I did not want any of those stories. So

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Speaker 3: I had a strategy. It was kind of a twofold strategy.

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Speaker 3: It was to go in big picture and tiny picture.

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Speaker 3: So I would go in. I would start the interviews

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Speaker 3: by talking about painting or talking about the idea of

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Speaker 3: parenting or competition like ideas, so we had to have

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Speaker 3: a real conversation about things, and then I would ask

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Speaker 3: him micro things about what did you like about the

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Speaker 3: Rick mbucker four thousand and one base as opposed to

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Speaker 3: the Hoffner bass, and then he would talk about that.

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Speaker 3: It was like, oh, I'd never get to talk about

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Speaker 3: this stuff. So once he gets in the mode of.

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Speaker 1: Like the thing with Rick Rubin, Yeah that's the cleanest

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Speaker 1: McCartney i've seen. Yeah, it was him talking to Rick

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Speaker 1: because it's a subject to he wants to talk about completely.

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Speaker 3: So once he realized, oh, we're just not doing the

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Speaker 3: greatest hits of the stories. Then we actually had great conversations,

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Speaker 3: and I feel like I got him to a place

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Speaker 3: where he talked about a lot of things I've never

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Speaker 3: heard him say, such as, I mean everything from I mean,

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Speaker 3: he tells this story of almost drowning in Hawaii. He's

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Speaker 3: never told that story before, you know, in the beginning,

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Speaker 3: just talking about the kind of the deep well of

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Speaker 3: doubt he was in, you know, which I think people

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Speaker 3: think of Paul McCartney as always winning, you know, And

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Speaker 3: I knew from the moment we started talking about this

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Speaker 3: period of time that he had a lot of deep

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Speaker 3: scars still, and I think even the film has been

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Speaker 3: him processing this kind of coming to terms with, Oh,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't as bad as I thought it was, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I think this actually came out of Get Back project,

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Speaker 3: because get Back, in his mind was always Let it Be.

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Speaker 3: It was the film of Let It Be, which was

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Speaker 3: on you know, it was, but it was all the

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Speaker 3: bad stuff. That original movie was a divorce movie. Lindsay

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Speaker 3: Hog Michael Lindsay Hogg is being so my.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: When we this idea of making something about the Wings period,

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Speaker 3: I thought, well, what I want to know is what

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Speaker 3: happens to that guy the moment that band breaks up.

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Speaker 3: So in my mind, my film begins like the day

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Speaker 3: after the Beatles break up, essentially, and Paul is heartbroken.

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Speaker 3: You know, everybody's heartbroken, the fans, the critics, John's not,

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Speaker 3: but but Paul, it just doesn't know what to do

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Speaker 3: with himself and has to kind of put his life

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Speaker 3: back together. But I think in the way that get

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Speaker 3: back made him realize, oh, it wasn't all bad. I

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Speaker 3: think that opened the door for him to say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this next chapter that was painful for me to live through,

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Speaker 3: maybe that wasn't all bad too.

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Speaker 1: I think that Lennon is somebody who the contrarianism that

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Speaker 1: fueled his music was also what was the demise of

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Speaker 1: the Beatles. Lenin was somebody who just like you know,

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Speaker 1: he had one foot out the door all the time.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to walk away. McCartney would have stayed there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the joke being all of these artists, the Stones, everybody, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't see myself doing this after I'm

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Speaker 1: forty exactly why I don't. I mean, that would be horrible.

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Speaker 1: I'm forty years old, I'm still singing the same. So

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Speaker 1: now he's what eighty three exactly before I get old, Right,

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Speaker 1: it's insane and so it's but but the thing with

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Speaker 1: Lenin is Lenin seemed to me like somebody who I

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Speaker 1: never met I wish I had. He was primed to

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Speaker 1: walk away from a lot of things that if it

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Speaker 1: didn't go his way or he felt like he was

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Speaker 1: working for somebody or whatever. And then of course he

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Speaker 1: had a woman in his life, and that's always important

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Speaker 1: for good or ill.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but he was a revolutionary and artistic revolutionary too.

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Speaker 3: So the Beatles. I found a clip of him from

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Speaker 3: before they announced the Beatles broken up, from December of

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Speaker 3: sixty nine where he says the Beatles became a museum

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Speaker 3: and if you know there's anything it's true of today

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Speaker 3: that we don't need more museums, so it needs to

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Speaker 3: be blown up. Yeah, I mean I think that was

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Speaker 3: John's attitudes, like everything needs to be blown up, right now,

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Speaker 3: you know, every convenstitution.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, on this show, when we do our show, we

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Speaker 1: do sometimes a little prep. We watch some YouTube to

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Speaker 1: see what kind of if we're an unfamiliar with them,

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Speaker 1: what kind of a talker the person is. If there's

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Speaker 1: somebody in public policy or what have you, academics. Now,

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Speaker 1: Richard's to me is not William F.

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Speaker 2: Buckley.

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Speaker 1: And when when you go in there, how do you

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Speaker 1: get somebody who's known for kind of almost a haikup

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Speaker 1: like brevity. I mean, I always assume you're gonna sit down,

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Speaker 1: He's gonna see there and go, yeah, man, make out.

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Speaker 2: Some months, Yeah, it's gonna be like haiku.

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Speaker 3: I mean you want to know how that film started? Yes,

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Speaker 3: that film started because his manager, Jane Rose, said, Keith

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Speaker 3: is recording some music. He hasn't done an interview in

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Speaker 3: a long time. He wants to have some tape of

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Speaker 3: him doing an interview. Would you come interview him? I said, yes, yes,

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Speaker 3: I will come interview Keith Richards. So to prep for it,

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Speaker 3: I brought one hundred albums on vinyl and a turntable

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Speaker 3: to his house and I had, you know, Muddy Waters

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Speaker 3: and Hank Williams and you know, all these.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to steal all this, little Walter,

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Speaker 1: all this from you.

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Speaker 3: And so in the beginning, I just said, hey, let's

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Speaker 3: just play records, and he loved it, and we ended

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Speaker 3: up spinning records for hours. I mean it's in the documentary,

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Speaker 3: but it was supposed to be like a one day thing.

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Speaker 3: And then at the end of it, he said, you're

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Speaker 3: coming back tomorrow, and I said, sure, I'll come back tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: And it just happened like that. Even when we sold

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Speaker 3: it to Netflix, it was a short, but by the

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Speaker 3: time I was done, it was a feature. But it

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Speaker 3: was done loosely, you know, like it's a sketch. It's not.

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Speaker 3: You know, certain films of mine are more like writing novels,

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Speaker 3: and then some are like sketches. The Keith was like, fast,

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Speaker 3: don't worry about it. It's just giving you this sensation

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Speaker 3: of what it's like to be there with Keith in

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Speaker 3: the room. And I think the film does accurately capture that. Like,

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Speaker 3: what's it like to hang out with Keith?

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, oh, what's it like to hang out with

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Speaker 1: Keith beyond spinning records? What's his passions? Is he into

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Speaker 1: gardening like other Englishman? What's his thing?

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Speaker 4: He does have a beautiful gardener.

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Speaker 2: I read something I've.

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Speaker 3: Never met anybody more comfortable in their own skin than

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Speaker 3: Keith Richard's.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you want to know how he lives forever?

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Speaker 3: Said he doesn't care about things, he's not stressed, he's

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Speaker 3: not control that. He is the most zen person. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you could bottle that, it would be incredible. He

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Speaker 3: is just so I need to be more like Keith Richards.

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Speaker 4: We all do. I mean, he's just he's so relaxed.

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Speaker 3: He entered and I've never met anybody where if you

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Speaker 3: put a camera on him or take it off of him,

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Speaker 3: that there is no change whatsoever, Like does not matter

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Speaker 3: if there's a camera, there's not a camera. He is

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Speaker 3: exactly the same person in every room at every time.

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Speaker 3: And that, you know, is something that I was just

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Speaker 3: taking notes on. I mean, it was amazing.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming you approach Jagger for the Keith thing.

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Speaker 3: I probably did, but not in a in more of

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Speaker 3: a cursory way, like if you want to come in.

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Speaker 3: But I also knew it wasn't aggressive, but it wasn't

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Speaker 3: supposed to be a stoness document right.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I someone with great insight into him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But also I felt like that documentary was the

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Speaker 3: chance to ask all the questions that nobody ever asks.

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Speaker 3: So whenever Keith is interviewed, he gets asked questions about,

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Speaker 3: you know, his complicated relationship with me, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: this isn't about that, you know, this is about just

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Speaker 3: hanging with Keith and kind of what's Keith into and

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Speaker 3: how does he move through the world. And I'd actually

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Speaker 3: produced Crossfire Hurricane, that Stones documentary, so like, I know

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Speaker 3: the Stones story and love it, but it just felt

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Speaker 3: like alone with.

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Speaker 2: Keith was the goal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Director Morgan Neville. If you enjoy conversations with

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Speaker 1: filmmakers who shine a light on the most famous figures

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Speaker 1: in music, check out my episode with the director of

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Speaker 1: What the Hell Happened To Blood, Sweat and Tears, John Sinfeld.

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Speaker 5: I'm fascinated by what's the story?

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Speaker 4: Is it compelling?

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Speaker 5: Is there enough depth to it? So that's the first thing.

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Speaker 5: Second question always is is there enough audio visual material

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Speaker 5: with which to tell the story? And sometimes there is

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Speaker 5: and sometimes there isn't. I did a film a few

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Speaker 5: years ago about the jazz icon John Coltrane, and there's

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Speaker 5: very little footage on him, but we managed to find

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Speaker 5: a way to tell the story. I did one on

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Speaker 5: John Lennon. He was perhaps the most photographed and filmed

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Speaker 5: man of the twentieth century, and there was plenty of

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Speaker 5: film for us to use.

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Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with John Sinfeld, go

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Speaker 1: to Here's Thething dot Org. After the break, Morgan Neville

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Speaker 1: explains Lorne Michael's process behind the curtain at Saturday Night Live.

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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing. After

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Speaker 1: five decades in show business, SNL creator Lorne Michaels has

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Speaker 1: shown a willingness to step into the spotlight more often

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Speaker 1: than in the past. He has appeared on SNL numerous

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Speaker 1: times and is now the subject of Morgan Neville's newest

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Speaker 1: documentary film, Laurne. Having resisted public attention for years, I

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Speaker 1: wondered what convinced Neville that Lorne Michaels was finally ready

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Speaker 1: to have a film made about him.

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Speaker 3: I mean, one of his friends said to me, I've

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Speaker 3: never known anybody who more really wants a documentary made

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Speaker 3: about him and simultaneously really doesn't want a documentary made

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Speaker 3: about him. And that was my experience. You know, in

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Speaker 3: the beginning, literally the first day of shooting is what

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Speaker 3: you see in the film. I pull out a camera

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Speaker 3: and he hides like I can't find him for half

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Speaker 3: an hour.

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Speaker 4: You know, I'm looking for him.

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Speaker 3: He won't wear a microphone, you know, and he's kind

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Speaker 3: of running away from me a lot at the beginning

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Speaker 3: of me the film, and I kept wondering, why why

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Speaker 3: am I doing this? Why is he doing this?

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Speaker 2: We can stop?

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Speaker 3: And I remember seeing Higgins want Steve Higgins, the producer,

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Speaker 3: snl there and he looked at me and said, remember

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Speaker 3: you chose this. So said, yes, I did. I did,

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Speaker 3: but you know, I like a good challenge.

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Speaker 2: And what changed.

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Speaker 3: Part of it is he got used to me, And

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Speaker 3: part of it is I'm trying to build trust with

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Speaker 3: him and understand that I'm really just there to understand him,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm not there to judge him. But I

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Speaker 3: think that is seductive to a person. And what I

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Speaker 3: think really motivated Lauren. I mean, yes, part of it

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Speaker 3: is legacy and all that, but it's that he feels

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Speaker 3: like when he does his job, well, it's invisible, and

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Speaker 3: I think he just wants for people to understand that

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Speaker 3: he works really hard, that he really does something, because

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Speaker 3: I think people don't really understand what the Wizard of

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Speaker 3: Oz does behind the curtain, and it's tough work. So

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Speaker 3: I think he wanted people to have some understanding that

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Speaker 3: he actually is doing something well there.

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Speaker 1: Were elements of that job. There are elements of that

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Speaker 1: system there that he's constructed that overlap with other comedy realities,

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Speaker 1: you know, stand up and sketch comedy and so. But

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Speaker 1: Lauren built a system in which what his greatest gift

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Speaker 1: is to me, among his gifts, is to get you

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Speaker 1: to understand that if you work hard, and you are gifted,

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Speaker 1: and you have some comedy chops, you're going to excel

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Speaker 1: in a venue that has ebbed and flowed in terms

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Speaker 1: of its popularity. But now it's that they're on at

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Speaker 1: eight thirty in la and now that they're like the

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Speaker 1: fifth highest rated show in prime time.

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Speaker 3: Lauren does care deeply. I mean, that's what I saw.

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Speaker 3: I think people think that he sits back and makes

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Speaker 3: these big decisions about who makes it and who doesn't

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Speaker 3: make it. But I think the reality is Lauren is

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Speaker 3: in the trenches fighting, you know, for next week's show.

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Speaker 3: You know, he is sweating detailed jobs. That is his job.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he is so you know, knows to the grindstone.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think people appreciate that. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: know he does so many things. And Mulaney says in

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Speaker 3: the film that people have no idea what Lauren's doing

434
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 3: to protect them and to help them.

435
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 2: He wants me to do well.

436
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 4: He doesn't do well.

437
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,119
Speaker 3: I do well, And people say, oh, you know, I

438
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 3: didn't get enough airtime this week, or you killed this

439
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,360
Speaker 3: sketch or whatever, and they have all these complaints. But

440
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 3: believe me, there's a bigger picture that he is doing

441
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 3: the best by everybody there. And he's also completely meritocratic.

442
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 3: He's fair about everything. So if you're good, great, you

443
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 3: know there is but it's.

444
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 1: Also not his fault. I mean, I shouldn't say, or

445
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: his responsibility. It's not like a father who throws those

446
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 1: kids in the water and say you learn to swim. Now,

447
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 1: the show business gods throw you in the water. We

448
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: want you to swim, not Louren. That's just the business.

449
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 1: Lauren's in the business. But he's not making that decision.

450
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 3: No, and so many Look how many cast members started

451
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 3: as writers too, you know Bo and Yang and you

452
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 3: know Bill Hater, you know so many of them that

453
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 3: he understands it's gradually growing. And then when you know

454
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 3: they're the kind of new cast members who are kind

455
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: of provisional light cast members. I forget the term they

456
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 3: use you know, and then they're kind of introduced. He

457
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 3: figures out a way for them to introduce themselves, usually

458
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 3: on a weekend update segment, you know, and trying to

459
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 3: kind of build a persona. And so he really he

460
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 3: needs stars. He needs stars. He wants to mint stars.

461
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 4: You know.

462
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 3: That's what's really carried that show. But the other thing

463
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 3: somebody said to me is what's interesting is when the

464
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,880
Speaker 3: show's doing really well, Lauren is pessimistic because he's thinking,

465
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 3: these people are all going to get movie and TV deals.

466
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 2: They're all going to leave in early two years.

467
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 3: And when the show's not doing well, he's optimistic because

468
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 3: he knows it's going to gel in two years.

469
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,199
Speaker 1: Net maybe you know, for me, he's somebody who this

470
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: is show business. He wants you to know that it

471
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,719
Speaker 1: is a meritocracy. You've got to get it together, you've

472
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: got to figure out how to perform. He'd be with

473
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: Higgins or the director, and he'd be in his room,

474
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: the small room upstairs above eight h and he turned

475
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: to somebody, Eagles, I'm going to give Jim something because

476
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 1: he hasn't been on the air in three weeks. He

477
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 1: was very you know, he's thoughtful, always you haven't been

478
00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: on the air in three which you're going to give

479
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 1: you this little thing in the twelve thirty slot. He

480
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: taught me some little things about the show, like if

481
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: something was really nasty and vulgar, he goes, what's twelve thirty?

482
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? That third slug? You know,

483
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 2: the later, the better off, it's dirty.

484
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 5: You know.

485
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 2: Now they're on at eight thirty.

486
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 3: So, as a good friend of Lawrence, how did the

487
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 3: film strike you?

488
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: I think that it struck me as what I expected

489
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: from him.

490
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 2: Cautious. He's cautious.

491
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: Lauren's never gonna throw down and say, oh god, he

492
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: just had this mad crush on Gilda and I tried

493
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: to date. He's not going to confess anything. That's just

494
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: not his style. He's very English that way. He's much

495
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 1: of an Anglo file that way. But you do see

496
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 1: to your credit, you see the person who has risen

497
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: to this place. This is a movie about Lorne for

498
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: fifty years, and Lauren in the last ten years has

499
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: risen to this place where he's like Carson, he's a

500
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 1: television institution. But you see with him in the last

501
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: when as far as when he started going on the show,

502
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: when he started appearing on the show and he would

503
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: play himself in the back and that was the beginning

504
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 1: of that obviously, And now it's like to get to fifty.

505
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: It's history, it is. Lauren is part of history.

506
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: Nobody's ever done it right.

507
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: And I think that Lauren is somebody who Lauren's older

508
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: and like all my friends, I'm sixty eight and I

509
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: have a lot of friends who are fifteen years older

510
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: than they, which puts them in their eighties, and nearly

511
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: all of them have one thing in common, and that

512
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: is they're rich beyond belief. They're famous beyond belief. What

513
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: they're putting out. People are still by and they're not done.

514
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: They're not done. Lauren said to me, when you retire,

515
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,719
Speaker 1: you die, and he's seriously, these guys have no desire

516
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: and no intention of retiring.

517
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 4: I believe it. You know, McCartney's touring, you know, I.

518
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: Find that unbelievable.

519
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Lauren's eighty three.

520
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're still they're like you stop, why?

521
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, getting no interest in stopping. But I know that

522
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 3: Lauren today is not who he was in the nineties

523
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: and is not who he was in the seventies. I mean,

524
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 3: because many different reasons having a family, Like I think

525
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: Laurene is probably much softer version now, and not that

526
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 3: he's soft, but he's not. You know a lot of

527
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 3: people talk to me about him having kids and how

528
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 3: that affected him and kind of made him just relax

529
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 3: a little bit a little bit, So I know I'm

530
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 3: getting just a kind of a slice of who Louren is.

531
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: But again, it was more of trying to feel like,

532
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: what's it like to be in the room with the guy.

533
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 3: You know, what's it like for people who've been in

534
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: that universe who work with him under him. I was

535
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 3: really happy ultimately with that. Lauren let me in enough

536
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: to kind of glimpse some.

537
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: Of that.

538
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: Documentary filmmaker Morgan Neville, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell

539
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing

540
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: on the.

541
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

542
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: When we come back, Morgan Neville looks back at the

543
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: Oscar winning moment that elevated his career and how he's

544
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: noticed the documentary industry transform over his thirty three years

545
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: of filmmaking. I'm Alec Baldwin, and this is here's the

546
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: thing Morgan Neville's twenty thirteen documentary Twenty Feet From Stardom

547
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: profiled the backup singers behind some of music's biggest hits.

548
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 1: The film won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature

549
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen. With more than fifteen years of experience

550
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: up to that point, I wondered if he'd ever considered

551
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: the possibility that one of his films would win such

552
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: a prestigious award.

553
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: No, I mean no, I mean I say that I've

554
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 3: been making docs for thirty three years. The first fifteen years,

555
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: nobody cared. And it wasn't just that they didn't care

556
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 3: about my films. They didn't care about documentaries. I mean

557
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 3: there were occasional documentaries like Roger and Me or March

558
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 3: of the Penguins or you know something, but it was

559
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: not a thing. You know, to get a documentary into

560
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 3: a theater was unheard of, and basically PBS and HBO

561
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: were the only places you could make anything that I've

562
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 3: seen my industry change multiple times during the time I've

563
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: been making films, and it's changed completely. But I think

564
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 3: part of that change, actually, Twenty Feet from Stardom was

565
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 3: my documentary about backup singers. But I think that actually

566
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 3: was one of those pivot moments. It was also the

567
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 3: moment when Netflix started putting documentaries on a streaming service

568
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: next to thriller and comedy. They become programming, you know,

569
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 3: but just being able to find them and putting them

570
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: on an equal plane with other types of movies I

571
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: think changed people's.

572
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: Percentcation them out of the basement. Well, I'm David Nutrien,

573
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: who's the artists director of the Hampton's Film Fest of

574
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: course the co chair of with Randy Master. We would

575
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 1: do this, and I said to Newton, as the years ago,

576
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: by especially the last five six seven years, docs are

577
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: programming very competitive. You say, well, how about that one

578
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: sold gone Athles a saint to you, No, no screening, screening.

579
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: We're going to do a big one in the city

580
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: in September. You just go to miss by a month whatever.

581
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: So the availability, where I should say, the scarcity of

582
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: docs we like, has completely changed recently.

583
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: I mean to me, the problem is that all it's

584
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 3: like what's happened in a lot of things like publishing

585
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 3: or music, like the kind of what what they call

586
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 3: them publishing the mid list titles. They're not blockbusters, but

587
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: they're not tiny. They're just like the things that are,

588
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 3: like singles and doubles. People aren't as interested in those,

589
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 3: you know, in the places they used to make a

590
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 3: lot of these kind of smart but small films like

591
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: Showtime used to do a lot of them, CNN films

592
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 3: used to do a lot more of them. It just

593
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: doesn't work for the streamers in the same way. So

594
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 3: a film like Best of Enemies, like I don't know

595
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 3: where I would sell that film well today today, And

596
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: those are so many of my favorite films to make,

597
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 3: but to watch too, you know, just.

598
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: We're winning an oscar is one thing, and that's that's nice.

599
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we screened Louis Sahaios's first doc. I think

600
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: it was his first doc. I think it was a

601
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: sound man. We were told back then. But Sohios did

602
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: the cove the cove the following year, I'm on stage

603
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: with Steve Martin. We hand him the Oscar for the cove.

604
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: It was kind of thrilling because it was like seven

605
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: months prior or eight months prior, we were in on

606
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: Long Island. Now let me ask you all, so you

607
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: live in La. I do you're from La Yeah, you

608
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: grew up in what part of LA.

609
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: I actually grew up in Santa Barbara?

610
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: You did, You grew up north and your whole childhood.

611
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 3: Lived in LA When was a little kid, moved to

612
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: Santa Barbara and then yeah, grew up there.

613
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 2: What your parents do? Were they in the business.

614
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: My dad was an antiquarian book dealer, so I grew

615
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: up in the book world, so very interesting. And my dad,

616
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 3: but my parents were kind of bohemians, are the Nope, No,

617
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: both gone, both gone, you know. But my dad loved

618
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: you know, writers so huge hemiway fans. So as a kid,

619
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 3: our family trips would be to follow the bulls in Spain,

620
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: you know, things like that. So I did a lot,

621
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: went to a lot of bullfights. But things like that,

622
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: you know, or strange, you know, we had writers stay

623
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 3: at our house constantly, you know, so it was kind

624
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 3: of you know, salon my over selling it. But it

625
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: was a quasi bohemian kind of upbringing. And but my

626
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: dad was a film freak, a music freak, and a

627
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 3: book freak. And your mom, my mom helped my dad

628
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 3: run everything. She was great, you know. My dad was

629
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: brilliant in many ways, but was.

630
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: An administrative disaster.

631
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, And he wasn't good with social My mom was

632
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 3: brilliant socially, you know, could talk to anybody. So the

633
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: two of them, you know, were really like a you know,

634
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 3: Frediser Jinder Ruders kind of.

635
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: She was his partner. Yeah, now you go to Penn

636
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: I did. Was that a legacy thing? Why did the

637
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: West Coast guy go to the East Coast?

638
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: I was a kid from California who wanted to get

639
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 3: away from California. So I go to school in Philadelphia.

640
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 3: I majored in Colonial American history, so because I was like, oh,

641
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: there's a real history here. So I just I loved

642
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: it and I loved, you know, all of that kind

643
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 3: of old history. But the funny thing is when I

644
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: was on the East Coast then I would talk about

645
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: La history and people would say, that's an oxymoron, you know,

646
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: what do you mean? So my first documentary was basically

647
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: my retort to that. It was a film called Shotgun

648
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 3: Freeway drives through Lost to La and it's this meditation

649
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: on history in La. John Didion's and James Elroy. It's

650
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: like a crazy Delroy. Yes, before he had really hit it.

651
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: Is he still alive?

652
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 4: He died right now, he's alive.

653
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 3: It's funny because he was another writer, one of the

654
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: writers who I passed through my childhood in a weird

655
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 3: way at our house. But we ended up filming with him,

656
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: and you know, used to break and enter people's homes.

657
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 3: He was kind of like a backdoor man who would

658
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 3: break in and like sniff women's panties and things like that.

659
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 4: Elroy, Yes, yes, early in his life.

660
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: I didn't see any panties anywhere in the house.

661
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 3: We were in a house and he's like, oh, I'll

662
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: show you what I did, and we go through. We

663
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 3: were filming it at my parents' house and he went

664
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: into my mom's panty drawer and started sniffing her underwear.

665
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: Can you imagine an image where someone goes into your

666
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: mother's bedroom and there's sniff your mother's paties in front

667
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: of you.

668
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 4: There you go, and I'm filming it.

669
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: When you go to Penn and you studied was it again.

670
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: Colonial American Colonial American history? But I was a journalist,

671
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, even though I was studying Colonial

672
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: American history, I wrote for the paper I left. When

673
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: I graduated, I went to the Nation magazine. That was

674
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 3: my first job, and there I started fact checking for Gorbidal,

675
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: So that might be where you're going. Because I did

676
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 3: the film Best of Enemies, which we screened at the

677
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 3: Hamptons Film Festival.

678
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: Isn't the one where he uses the ugly epithet of

679
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: vidaliist him.

680
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: Buckley and the doll are debating each other and Buckley uses.

681
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: I'm a queer, yeah, yes, something like that, pick your word,

682
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, I remember. That was super controversial. So when

683
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: people saw it in that film and they didn't recall

684
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: that or didn't know about that.

685
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: They were like, Wow. They couldn't believe Buckley was that

686
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: easy to get.

687
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: And Buckley thought the tape had been destroyed, and I

688
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: think he actually had had somebody take the tape out

689
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 3: of the vault at ABC and just detroy it because

690
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 3: that one tape is missing from the ABC vault. But

691
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: the only reason that still exists is that Vanderbilt University

692
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: has a TV monitoring service.

693
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: They've had since the television archives that I used on

694
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: went to GW.

695
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they had like a black and white copy

696
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 4: of it.

697
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: Right, what's a film?

698
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: You really think you what you set out to do,

699
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: you accomplished, it was successful for you. Among you probably

700
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: have several or a few. What's the most successful film

701
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: you made in terms of you meeting your goal?

702
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, because a film like twenty Feet

703
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: from Stardom. You know, I had a producer who said

704
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 3: that he had gone to a Leonard Cohen concert had

705
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: gotten really stoned. Gil Frieson was the producer, and he

706
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 3: had been at A and M Records. I remember him, Yeah,

707
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: he'd been the president of A and M. And he

708
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 3: spent the whole concert watching Leonard Cohen's backup singers and

709
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: thinking what's their story? And he came to me and said,

710
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 3: I'm interested in backup singers, and I said, that's potentially.

711
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: I was stoned when I came up with the side

712
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: of it.

713
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 3: But so I said, so, what what's your idea? And

714
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: he said, no idea, just backup singers. So I didn't

715
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 3: know what it was going to become. So there are

716
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: films like that where you're just on a journey and

717
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 3: you're really discovering it and they grow. And you can

718
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 3: tell when a film is going to be good is

719
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 3: it grows in all the right ways, so like it

720
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 3: picks up momentum. It's not like pushing a rock up

721
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 3: a hill. You know, it just gets better and better,

722
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 3: and twenty Feet was one of those. But I think

723
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: probably once should be my neighbor. Just from my instinct

724
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: of what I wanted it to be. Everything clicked. I

725
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 3: just felt like it in a way in terms of

726
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: what you want, in terms of what I wanted, you know.

727
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 3: I mean part of documentary is I feel like there's

728
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 3: so many other things you can't control that just have

729
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 3: to follow your way to And that was just a

730
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 3: film that everything worked about it in terms of timing

731
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 3: things I couldn't control.

732
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: Right.

733
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: Do you find while you're making a documentary there's a

734
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: lot of handholding and guidance by you to get subjects

735
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: comfortable in front of the camera.

736
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 3: There's a lot of handholding, you know, sometimes if somebody's

737
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 3: used to being on camera, almost the opposite of okay,

738
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 3: we're not on camera. I mean the first day I

739
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 3: filmed with Steve Martin for his documentary, literally the first day,

740
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 3: he came out and he had two pairs of glasses

741
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 3: in his hands and he said, you know, should I

742
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: wear the black glasses the brown glasses? I said, Steve,

743
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: it's a documentary. You can wear whatever you want, but

744
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 3: wear the black ones.

745
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: But then do you feel someone like him? I would

746
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: assume him because when I've met him, he's very cagy. Yeah,

747
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: Steve Martin's very cagy. Like, he's so fucking cagey, you know.

748
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 1: Like one time, I'm standing there at sen Now was saying,

749
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: it's me, Tina and him and somebody else. And as

750
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: I'm telling a story and I'm reluctant to try to

751
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: regale them, let alone tell a story to them, because

752
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: they're also funny and smart, which I'm not.

753
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: And literally, as I'm telling you her, he goes. He

754
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: does like the biggest.

755
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: Theatrical yawn you've ever seen in your life. And I thought, Okay,

756
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: he's funny, he's clever. I would assume he'd be among

757
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: the people who would like, just.

758
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: Fuck with you. Did he fuck with you? No? He

759
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: was honest.

760
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 3: No, he was honest, straightforward, And I think Steve has

761
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: different modes, you know. And also it's funny. The thing

762
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: that made me realize I could really get there with

763
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 3: him is his novels, actually, because he has a deep

764
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 3: understanding not only of story and narrative, but of character.

765
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 3: And I think in the beginning, I said, as a

766
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: storyteller to a storyteller, this is where I need to

767
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: go to tell the story. And I think he said, okay,

768
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 3: I'm game to do that, you know.

769
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: Not cooperative?

770
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, completely resist.

771
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 3: And we started with as I started pretty much all

772
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: my films, with a tape recorder and just us talking.

773
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 3: So Steve and I talk for hours and hours and hours.

774
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: There must be a large bin of things you wanted

775
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: to do, and you changed your mind.

776
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 2: You explored it a little.

777
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: Bit, like to describe a situation where you go, let's

778
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: do mister or miss mss X, and then you do.

779
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: You delve into a little bit, describe that process.

780
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 3: Then you go, no, I mean one name I could

781
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 3: name because they're dead, is I want to do a

782
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 3: Raymond Chandler film. You know, I love Chandler's writing. He

783
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 3: was a hermit, and I tracked down the handful of

784
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 3: people who were alive who knew him and started making it.

785
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 3: But it was like sand going through my fingers, like

786
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 3: I just couldn't summon him as a character, and so

787
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 3: I just I walked away from it. You know, it

788
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: was just too hard to make a film about a

789
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 3: character who was hiding his whole life.

790
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: There.

791
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there were nine seconds of footage that

792
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: exist of Raymond Chandler and one interview recording, so that

793
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 3: was impossible.

794
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: I mean.

795
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 3: There was another one where I was approached about doing

796
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 3: a documentary with a very famous comedian and I met

797
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 3: with him and you know, kind of said, explained, you

798
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: know that we have to kind of go there, and

799
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 3: you know, it's about the whole process of you know,

800
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 3: there's a certain amount of vulnerability that you have to

801
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: show up with. And they said, okay, you know, and

802
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 3: then we went and I met with him again, and

803
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 3: it became clear my second meeting that they just wanted

804
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: to show funny clips of themselves and have people say

805
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 3: nice things about them, like they really were not going

806
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 3: to go there.

807
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: It's a tribute and.

808
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: I just said I and I bowed out, you know,

809
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 3: I said, I can't do that. So there are situations

810
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 3: like that. I've had a number of situations like that

811
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 3: for me.

812
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: People will say, oh, who do you want to act with?

813
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: And there's almost none of my peers. There's some, but

814
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: hardly any. You know, I admire their films, I want

815
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: to go see their films. I don't know if I

816
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: want to do that with them, which is so intimate.

817
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: Who do you want to do a movie about that

818
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: you wish you could meet them?

819
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 3: I mean my White Whale, and he's dead, so I'm

820
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: not going to meet him. But in my fantasy. Shel Silberstein,

821
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 3: who was a famous writer, wrote all these great you know,

822
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: with the Sidewalk Ends and the Giving Tree and all

823
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 3: these incredible children's books, but also wrote a boy named

824
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: Sue for Johnny Cash, also lived at the Playboy mansion. Also,

825
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: you know, like lived many many different lives, and I've

826
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 3: I love his writing particularly, but you know, just somebody

827
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 3: that I would love to have met, but also, you know,

828
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 3: would love to make a documentary.

829
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: About what do you do next?

830
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 3: I'm not making a film at this moment for the

831
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 3: first time ten years. No, No, I'm just promoting this.

832
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 3: But I've been making so much that I'm just I

833
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 3: don't want to. I want to fall in love with

834
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 3: something to make because.

835
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: It's the topic an idea, not a person with any

836
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: Susan Lacy would do her films.

837
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: And I love the jan Fondo one.

838
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: The one on Spielberg was a bit too everybody's I

839
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: think it's afraid of Spielberg to really dig in there

840
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: I'd love to interview Spielberg and talk about other things.

841
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 2: But for you, is it likely a person or could

842
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:39,479
Speaker 2: it be.

843
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 3: I'm actually because I've done a lot of biographical right films,

844
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: I'm kind of ready to do something else, you know,

845
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 3: and I've made non biographical films, but I think I'm

846
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 3: looking for something else. I'm also working on scripted projects now,

847
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 3: so you know, something else, new challenge. I mean, I've

848
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: done so many different things in documentary has been incredible,

849
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 3: and I will always make documentaries, but as you get older,

850
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 3: time is the thing that's the most valuable. So I

851
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 3: just want to know that I have to love something

852
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 3: to want to make.

853
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it's like music, because when I watch

854
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: your films, what I always remember is great films.

855
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 2: You have an ear.

856
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 4: I'm a musician too.

857
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: There you go, you have an ear like in my acting.

858
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: I think about it. It's like music. How should I be

859
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: playing this?

860
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: It is?

861
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: There's a way to play it. I want to find

862
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: the notes that I've written down. But been with you.

863
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: You've made a lot of great films. You're an immensely

864
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: talented man, extraordinarily talented man, and what I think a

865
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: lot of it has to do with your ear.

866
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: You have an ear.

867
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 3: Well, It's funny because you know I said this to somebody.

868
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 3: You know, film school teaches you all the wrong things

869
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 3: about making documentary because film school is about your voice.

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Speaker 3: What do you want to say? You're the next door

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00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 3: some wells tell us what you have to tell the world,

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00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 3: and documentary is all about your ear.

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00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 4: What do you hear? You know?

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Speaker 3: I feel like my job is listening really really hard.

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Speaker 3: I see a lot of people come out of film

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00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 3: school to make documentaries and they've decided what the film

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00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 3: is before they've made it. But I think the sense

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00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 3: of discovery is the thing to do. Al Masles, the

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00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 3: famous documentary filmmaker, said one of my favorite quotes, if

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00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 3: you end up making the film you set out to make,

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00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 3: then you weren't listening along the way.

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Speaker 1: My thanks to documentary filmmaker Morgan Neville. This episode was

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00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. Were produced

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00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. Our

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00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: engineer is Isaac Kaplin Woolner. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the

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00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.