WEBVTT - When Journalism Becomes Propaganda | A Conversation with Katie Couric 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.480 Welcome to this conversation here on the Warning with Katie Couric, 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.000 and I'm going to turn it over to you right 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.840 away and started Katie's asking the questions. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:10.800 Yeah, I asked. 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:13.880 I have a lot of questions always, But see before 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:16.400 we start, maybe you should. I think it might be 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.280 interesting for people joining us to hear a little bit 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.400 about how we know each other and kind of our 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:23.799 professional history. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:25.880 Well we go back. 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.760 When did we first cross, like in the McCain and 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:30.000 Bush years. 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:35.200 Yes, I think especially during the McCain campaign. 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:39.440 And especially during the McCain campaign, and of course the 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:46.360 very famous Sarah Palin interview that you did, which you know, 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:48.440 I tell people all these years later, you know that 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:49.720 everything that was going. 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.479 On in that campaign on that day when that interview came. 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:57.720 Out, it was literally the third biggest problem of the day, right, 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:02.279 it was the global economy was collapsing, you. 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.840 Know, right John McCain was Senator McCain was headed to 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:12.200 DC and right for that emergency meeting, remember, and it 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.560 kind of didn't help him because he didn't see that 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.640 engaged with economic information. 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.080 You know, it was a moment, it was a moment 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.319 in time. I'm still waiting I was I was thirty, 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.000 I was thirty seven when I when I was when 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.160 I was doing the McCain campaign, and I'm fifty four 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:40.240 now and I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:46.279 what the unfair question it is that you asked Katie Cork. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.200 Excuse me that that Katie Cork asked Sarah Palin, that 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:51.440 you asked Sarah Palin. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.800 And you know the. 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.120 One thing that people really missed in that moment in 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:05.840 two thousand and eight, you asked this question of Paling, 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.440 which is, so what do you read every day? And 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:14.400 if you're preparing somebody for any type of national interview 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:19.280 on a presidential campaign, this is just a very early, early, 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.120 early question that you go through. What do you read? 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:30.240 Was the last book you read? Childhood? Pets? Basic, basic, 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:36.840 basic stuff. And when Sarah Palin answered that question, it 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.919 wasn't that she doesn't read. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:41.919 It was her way of telling. 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.040 You to go fuck yourself, right, you know from a 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:50.120 and so you when you live by that creed, right, 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.360 you see what happens. So at any rate, right, it 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.080 was a grievance based answer. And I remember when the 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:03.160 campaign ended, and Republicans are out of power, and really 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.240 the locus of the Republican Party switches to Sixth Avenue 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.639 in New York, Roger Ales. Fox News is the new 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.160 head of a party, and Fox News has fundamentally staffed 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:14.880 the government. 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.680 You these many years later, but you have all these people. 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:25.000 Who were supposedly serious journalists, independent voices that you know, 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.280 were conservative in their strengths, sitting there. 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.240 In the in the months after the McCain. 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:36.080 Campaign ends, talking about Sarah Palin is a serious. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:37.520 Future presidential candidate. 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:43.760 They engaged in the pretend with it, and all of 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.920 it takes off from there. Mitt Romney going to get 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.600 Trump's endorsement in twenty twelve. 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:52.720 Trump is a buffoon. You lived in New York, I 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:53.840 grew up in New Jersey. 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.480 No one wanted Trump's endorsement for any serious purpose. What 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:02.640 what Trump did was tapping into this racist current in 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.800 the party on the Birther strain. And John McCain was 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.880 appalled by it and condemned it, and Romney tried to 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.320 exploit it. And so everybody made their accommodations one step 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.360 at a time over many, many. 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:17.880 Many years. 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:23.320 And I literally you could unpack, you could unpack sixteen 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:28.200 years of comments of mine without contradiction right from the 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:33.120 first instance, going back to and my attitude on this 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:38.640 was always she failed at a performance level, at a 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.039 character level, was a terrible pick. But there was no 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.919 unfairness against hers, no conspiracy against her. There was a 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:51.160 conspiracy of stupidity that erupted after the fact in defense 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:55.320 of her. And so we have journeyed many miles down 0:04:55.400 --> 0:05:00.440 the proverbial river over this last two decades to this 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.040 to this moment where we are now. But you know, 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.280 will always be bound up by this. In all you did, 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:12.960 you were the third major anchor right to interview her, 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:18.440 but you are the one who asked questions that revealed 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:23.040 an aspect of her character that people are still talking 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:29.040 about twenty years later, basically. And and the last thing 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.800 I'll say about it is, there's so few of those 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:38.440 types of interviews that are so necessary for the American 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.679 people to see that take. 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.000 Place at all. I mean, I think I could count. 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.320 On the I can count on my hand right the 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.960 number of interviews that that Trump has had that have 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.719 had deeply been deeply revealing interview. 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.919 You know, it's interesting, Steve, because I was thinking about 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.440 Bill Crystal the other day and he was well I 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.599 think about him a lot because I read the Bulwark 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.360 and what they're doing, and he was one of Sarah 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:14.159 Kalen's early supporters. I remember reading that he was really 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:18.120 taken by her. And I wonder how you think the 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:24.279 Tea Party movement led to the MAGA movement, because I 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.440 think there is a pretty direct line, is there not 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.640 from what was happening in that two thousand and eight 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:36.080 campaign and Donald Trump sort of taking the mantle of 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:42.800 this disenfranchised, grievance written party, you know, portion section of 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:43.280 the party. 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:50.120 So let's take a let's take a leap forward from 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:55.800 two thousand and eight to two thousand and sixteen. And 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:00.360 the craziest answer did anybody give to a. 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.320 Question is Jeb Bush? 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:09.160 Now, think about this right whole campaign? Donald Trump in it, 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.080 Gold Medal winner. Craziest answer to a question. Jeb Bush 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.240 gets it, keeps it for all time. I'm gonna tell 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.240 you what it is. But even before we get there, 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:27.280 think about how insane it seems like Jeb Bush looked 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.560 into the mirror and came away with the conclusion that 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.160 there's going to be a third member of the Bush 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.680 family that was elected to office of the President of 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:41.320 the United States, that his father was on a national 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.400 ticket in eighty and eighty four and eighty eight and 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.280 ninety two, and then his brother in two thousand. In 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.920 two thousand and four, he was going to be on 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:54.840 a national ticket in twenty sixteen. It's extraordinary, Hubrius. It 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.240 was rejected by the country right at a fundamental level. 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:03.239 We don't talk about this with regard to Secretary Clinton, 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.560 and that was an aspect of it. Are we really 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:10.320 going to elect somebody's spouse after they had been president 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:14.240 for eight years, or somebody's or somebody's brother. But at 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.880 any rate, jet Bush has asked a question, knowing then 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.440 what we know now, would we have invaded Iraq again? 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.040 And jet Bush answers he says, oh, yes, absolutely, the 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:29.320 world is much safer. And Trump looked at him and 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.439 was basically like, you were nuts, And that's dishonest. 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:35.680 And so you have. 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:42.679 Trump on a constant basis finds himself in situations as 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.760 the world's most prolific liar, and I mean that literally 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:51.760 where in politics he's viewed in these exchanges. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.400 As the more honest of the candidates. 0:08:54.840 --> 0:09:01.480 So the Key Party movement embraced this noxious birther racist 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:07.200 lie and has all of these toxic elements. But the 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.720 Democrats have never been able to comprehend, though they're going 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:16.840 to in this next election, that the key party movement 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.960 at its core was a reaction to the Bush presidency. 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.040 It was a reaction to the spending. It was a 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.920 reaction to the bailouts, it was a reaction to the 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:35.160 lost Wars. And so what Trump did is burned down 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:41.959 an institution at the grassroots of the party felt had 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:47.440 been betrayed by the weakness of its elected leaders. And 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:53.000 so in two thousand and nine, the Republican Party is 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:57.000 in the position that Democrats are now. They are in 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.880 the minority in the Senate, in the minority in the House. 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:06.640 And what happens the locus of the party. 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.280 Moves to a television studio. 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:16.040 And Roger Als is the most powerful person politically in 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:21.480 the country. Every single Republican that today is terrified of Trump, 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.480 was terrified of Ales until Trump steamrolled Aales. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:29.320 Roger Als made. 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:33.319 A move on Donald Trump during that campaign in twenty sixteen, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.160 after Donald Trump had said Megan Kelly was bleeding out 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:41.520 of our eyes, and Roger Ales had basically said, well 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:42.200 that's enough. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:43.560 We're not going to tolerate that. 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:45.960 I'm not going to let one of our stars be 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.480 abused by this guy. He's made a run. So this 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.920 is New York politics, my boss on my boss, so 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:58.719 to speak. And Roger Ales proverbially wound up like Costelano 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:03.000 outside of Sparkstate House, with the proverbial Trump sitting in 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.680 the car with Sandy the bullnecks to him. And that's 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.920 and that's what happened, and and so and so you 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:15.280 have the fusion of the party and the network into 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.920 what I would argue now, I mean, I don't there's 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:20.680 no real debate about this in my mind anymore. It's 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.000 you know, when I every time we might have talked 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.520 about this once that I've used the word fascist, you know, 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.840 it's always with some trepidation because I want to be precise. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.560 I don't want to be hyperbolic. I want I want 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.240 to be I want to be precise and pactful in 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.559 my use of language. And he is a fascist, and 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.720 and and I've been right about that, and so we've 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.720 we've gone on a long journey over over seventeen years 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.520 from that moment to this moment. And it's all and 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.400 it's all deeply connected together. 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:56.720 Yeah, you know, you and I had a pretty dark 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.600 conversational election night, and I'm just curious, now, six months later, 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.679 is it worse than you ever believed it would it 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:04.960 would be, Steve? 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:07.360 Or did you predict this? 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:15.640 I predicted it. I predicted the violence before the twenty election. 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.560 I predicted that Trump could be the nominee from the 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:24.320 moment he came down the escalator. I predicted it spot on. 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:30.760 But predicting it and knowing it is different than experiencing it. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:36.280 And so what you realize when you're experiencing this and 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:41.240 you're seeing masked federal Gestapo, and that's what it is. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:47.440 Purposeful use of these masks would still fear amongst the 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.960 people and the government of the people, by. 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.160 The people, for the people. 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:58.520 The consequences of what Joe Biden did and a small 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:04.320 team of people around him have been profound. The people 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:09.000 who got online to be in support of that delusion 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.920 did a tremendous amount of damage to predicted it at all. 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:15.120 But you know, there's a saying. 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.240 The years are long, the days are long, but the 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.560 years are short, and so there's a lot of long 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:29.560 days right now. And what you realize is that we 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.959 grew up certainly during times of momentous events. You were 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:44.080 on the air during September eleventh, World War two. When 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.160 we've experienced it, we've experienced it at three hour movies, 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.800 and we always know how it's going to end. But 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.240 in nineteen thirty nine in London, or in nineteen forty 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:57.760 or nineteen forty one, the days where the same length 0:13:57.800 --> 0:13:58.440 they are today. 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.880 And I don't know what's going to happen next. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:10.120 But I have a lot of faith that, knowing the 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:15.199 history of the country, that the country is very resilient. 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.680 The American people are slow to anger and slow to rise, 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.320 but are not inclined to tolerate the things that we're 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.640 seeing happen. And I think it'll be massively repudiated in 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.720 the end. I think it's going to be right a 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:36.720 period of renewal that that follows this, that is that 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:44.040 is pretty pretty profound, right, pretty pretty important, And if 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.840 there's a big, big fight coming in the country, and 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:48.600 it's going to be exciting to be part of it. 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:53.080 Somebody named Deborah Johnson just commented what did Steve say 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.560 about Biden? And it did want me to dig into 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.640 Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson's book with You. You know 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.600 it has been and gosh controversial, to say the least. 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.280 I interviewed them. I guess it was last week or 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:12.280 the week before in Washington, and a lot of people 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.960 were very angry at them for writing this book. I 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:21.840 know it's been actually I think exploited by right wing 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.280 media in a way that I don't think they intended. 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.640 But what did you think of the book? What do 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:28.200 you think of. 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:34.160 Exploring and examining this inner circle and President Biden and 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.240 First Lady Jill Biden and their decision to stay in 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:38.840 the race. 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:43.160 And do you think there's room to. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.200 Legitimately analyze and even criticize their actions? 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:52.760 Oh? I think that what they did is the is 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:55.120 somebody just. 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:59.680 Wrote bad timing. Tapper dumbass. That's the kind of comment. 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.680 What I would say. What I would say, Well, let 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.920 me you had an incapacitated president. 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:16.160 I think that's been a little hyperbolic. Steve President. 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:24.880 Advisors quoted in they said President's not ready to function at. 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:25.320 Two a m. 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.800 Well, that's true. I don't know. Limited Limited. 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.440 Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson alleged conspiracy. 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:40.920 There was no conspiracy. Right excuse me. They alleged cover up. 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.400 Right there, there was no cover up, because everything happened 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.240 in plain sight and it was patently obvious. 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:54.360 I thought Dean Phillips saw it, George Clinton. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.840 The Democratic, the Democratic members of Congress saw it. And 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:04.040 so what Jake Copper details are the extraordinary. 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.200 Actions of five people. 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:14.960 Who put themselves in their power and Biden's ambition for more, 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.439 his wife's ambition for more ahead of the country, and 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:23.800 they created a disastrous situation. Joe Biden promised to be 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:29.320 a transitional president and implied strongly he would serve one 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:36.760 term from the Geck. They used Trump as the rationale 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:43.239 for Biden to break that promise, under the delusion that 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:48.439 only Biden could be Trump, when in fact Biden was 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.359 probably the only Democrat who could lose to Trump. And 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.960 the people that are responsible for that are Mike Donald 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:02.080 and Steve Verschetti and Joe Biden and Done and her husband. 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.240 The president was manipulated. He wasn't shown the poll numbers. 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.560 He didn't know what his standing was in the race. 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.920 He didn't know that he was never ahead, not for 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:13.440 a day. 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.439 Those people lied to the Democratic Party, They lied to 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.879 the American people. And over and over again they said, 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:26.000 they said that they were ahead, and they were not. 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:32.160 And so what happened in the election was the most 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.680 prolific liar and the most dangerous man in American history 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:41.080 was elected narrowly because he was viewed as more honest 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:46.280 about Biden's health and fitness, about the border, and about 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:52.159 the economy. And so the Democrats shouted down anybody that 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:59.960 told the truth about this, me included, and they assassinated 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:06.640 their characters, and they canceled the New Hampshire primary, all 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:12.080 of it, all of it and a nakedly blatant partisan 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:16.919 attempt to put his interests ahead of the countries at 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:21.480 an existential moment, and the country repudiated it. And any 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:27.639 person who was materially involved in it who thinks that 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.240 they're going to be on the ticket in twenty twenty 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:35.360 eight or that, in Chuck Schumer's words, we just moved forward, 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.200 and that there's no accounting for that. Donald Trump, as 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.760 bad as he is doing and the terrible things he's doing, 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:47.040 is far more popular than the Democratic Party. Why the 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:51.440 brand of chattered. It's broken because of the gas lighting 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:56.520 and because of the lie. But the omission in the 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:01.480 Tapper book is the media role. And so you have 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:06.159 someone like like jos Barbara, who's on the record saying, 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.400 every single person who comes on my show says one 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:16.120 thing on camera and something else off camera. What they 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.000 said on camera was this was the best biting ever, 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.760 and what they said off camera is I can't believe 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.920 he's running again. So there was a conversation that took 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:30.280 place off camera between the most powerful people in the 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.960 country and the media, and another one that took place 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.160 off camera that the American people didn't get to see. 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.639 So that was really I think, I was going to say, Steve, 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.159 I think it was really uncomfortable for a lot of 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.960 journalists too. I'm not I'm not justifying it, but I think, 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.119 you know, people forget journalists are human beings, and I 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:58.320 think it was very uncomfortable for them to question Joe 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:03.640 Biden's metal acuity or decline. And I think it's sort 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.120 of like asking your father to give you the car keys, right, 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:12.600 and then when any suggestion was made, like David apselrod 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.600 right was one of those people who spoke pretty openly 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:20.960 about this. George Clooney as someone just said they would 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:25.679 get so pummeled. But I think you're right. I'm not, 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.640 as I said, I'm not justifying it. I think there 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.960 was there should have been more focus. And I asked 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:34.600 Jake when I interviewed him, do you think the fact 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.960 that Fox News was sort of mocking and belittling and 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:45.159 kind of very cruelly And one might argue how people 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:48.080 treat Trump in that way too, but how they were 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:52.400 cruelly portraying Joe Biden is tripping and losing, you know, 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.960 his way on a stage or falling off of you know, 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.440 you know, tripping on something that it almost something internally 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.760 made you discount it in a way. I thought that 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:07.439 was sort of interesting because I think sometimes we forget 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:13.120 about sort of the human emotional impact that sometimes these 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.520 issues have on reporters. 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:23.879 Well, listen, we have we have in this country a 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:29.520 total collapse of trust in the media. It's so bad 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.639 that your average person doesn't believe it's possible to know 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.320 what's real by consuming it. Right, So we live in 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:43.119 a country fundamentally where right there is no reality anymore. 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.720 There's a bit of battle that's gone on in this 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:51.439 space between the lie and the truth. It's wrestling out there, 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:57.040 and you know, the lie is prevailing in a lot 0:22:57.040 --> 0:22:57.640 of ways. 0:22:57.920 --> 0:22:59.680 But I just. 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:08.160 Fox is extreme and dishonest. Scott Jennings works for CNN. 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.639 How did we get here? So Jay Tapper is not 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:16.679 going to talk about the CNN fight music, before the 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:23.199 Trump town hall, before the glorification of Trump. Right, the 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:27.120 entire premise of the New York Times coverage has been 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:33.199 that Maggie Haberman is an exceptional reporter, uniquely positioned, a 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:39.080 Trump whisperer. Entire millions of dollars of brand campaigns alone, 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:45.560 she can interpret. And in the end, I guess they 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:49.360 missed the lead, which is that he's a pretty dangerous fascist, 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:50.360 which some of us have. 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:51.959 Seen coming for a long time. 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:57.760 And so in the end, everything that I said that 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:01.760 would happen if Biden ran for a second term happened. 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:04.879 I said it in twenty one, I said it in 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:10.280 twenty two, and a lot of people have been brutalized 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.119 by lying, by powerful interest in the party. 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.640 Right there's you know, the media tells the. 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:20.040 Country that the two parties have nothing in common. 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:21.960 They have something in common. 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:24.879 Yet eighty five percent of the country looked at a 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:28.840 Biden Trump rematch and said we don't want and the 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:32.919 leadership of the two major parties was well, that's the 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:33.760 choice you're going. 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:39.040 To get, and it created disaster. 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:41.399 And so so what I would say to some people 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:45.280 that are out there, you know, whether it's Cheryl, you 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:47.760 are a Republican and I don't know Cheryl, or an 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:50.720 apology for being a Republican a party that I left 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:55.520 in two thousand and eighteen on a matter of integrity 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:58.439 and conviction because the party left me on these on 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.879 these core issues. But two party system, what party is 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:06.240 it that Trump beat? And why did they beat it? 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:10.600 Why did so many people who voted for Barack Obama 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:16.320 suddenly turn raisist and vote for Trump? Right in the 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:19.000 estimation of so many of the leading experts of the 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:24.720 Democratic Party. So we have a situation where we're approaching 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:28.320 the last chance elections. 0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:28.639 Can we go? 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:31.399 Before we talk about the future, I just want. 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:35.560 To ask you one one more question about the whole 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:40.680 Biden sort of reevaluation. Do you think if Joe Biden had, 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:43.240 in fact, as he said, I was going to I'm 0:25:43.280 --> 0:25:46.320 going to be a bridge to a new generation of leaders, 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:50.760 and had made clear maybe halfway through his presidency, granted 0:25:50.800 --> 0:25:52.720 he would have been laying Duck and said I'm not 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:56.080 going to run, and a primary process could have happened, 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.560 Steve and the American people, even if they didn't know, 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:02.239 some of these names, could have, through a series of 0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:06.520 debates and public appearances, etc. Been exposed to a new 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:10.800 slate of candidates. Do you think, and again, this is 0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:16.040 pure speculation that Donald Trump would have been defeated by 0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:19.400 whoever emerged as the strongest candidate in that process. 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:24.880 Absolutely, Donald Trump was a historically weak candidate who beat 0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:29.199 the only Democrat that he could beat, and that was 0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:33.840 and that was Biden. And I think Vice President Harris 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:36.880 deserves a great deal of credit. I think he performed 0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:41.400 at the highest deceivable level that she's able to perform 0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.200 at in a political campaign with. 0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:48.000 A terrible with a terrible hand of cards. 0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:52.760 But every person around Biden saw the diminished capacity, and 0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:56.960 every person who said, hey, he ought to be president 0:26:57.720 --> 0:27:03.800 un till he's eighty six, who was reckless. 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:10.520 And it has opened the gates. 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:16.760 To the gravest threat to country faces since the Civil War. 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:23.160 And so now right the idea that those saying people 0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:30.680 who shouted everybody down get to say, now conversations over, 0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:33.439 We'll tell you who's going to run next time? 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:37.119 Absolutely not, absolutely not. 0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:42.200