WEBVTT - NYC Rental Market Reaching a Breaking Point 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 and of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.280 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.239 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.000 by searching Bloomberg Global News. One of the areas that 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.919 we've been talking about, Carol, is a key economic indicator, uh, 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.479 and it's one that's close to home, is the rental 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.320 market in New York City. And it's a complicated one 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.640 to some extent. In other ways, it's very simple, which 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.160 is if the rents are going there, they're just there's 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:58.120 so many important elements to this. So let's have someone 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:00.120 smarter than me explain it all to us, and that 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.400 is Prescant Gopal. He is us real estate reporter for Bloomberg. 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.959 He's got a great story about the New York City 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:10.560 rental market pushed to the breaking point by tenant debts. Uh, 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.640 this is a serious story. Presha joins this on the 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:19.680 phone from Massachusetts. Presha tell us what you found, Well, 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.600 you know, New York in many ways is vulnerable to 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.760 the current um economic crisis that the country is facing. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.200 UM would be more than a lot of cities because 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.280 for one thing, it's the biggest rental city. Two thirds 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:37.440 of UM the households are are are renting. And also 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.280 even before COVID, obviously there was an affordability crisis in 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.039 place of people we're struggling to make the rent even 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.440 before they started to lose these jobs and numbers, and 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.040 many of the renters are in professions that are hard hit. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:58.240 So the restaurants and bars and nail salons and and 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:00.400 you know, the people who cleaned the office is UM. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.600 So uh, you know, there are a lot of them 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.480 are having trouble paying their rent. Right, And this is 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.040 what we've been worried about. Pressant right that in terms 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.920 of the economic shutdown, it's it's kind of you know, 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.320 the trickle down effect, if you will and and that's 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.080 you know, initially, I think we didn't think about the 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.880 real estate market right away, and then we started think like, oh, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.480 wait a minute. You know what if people, you know 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.799 can't pay their rents and you know, or companies can't 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.640 pay their rents, whether it's small businesses, you know, and 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:36.960 and then the impact of this becomes just so much wider. Yeah, 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.959 I mean, uh, you know, the people who were most 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:45.560 impacted by this um, this economic crisis are renters really 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.480 because those are the people who are UM. Like I said, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.119 they're in these jobs that are hard hit, they make 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.600 less money. UM. So when they don't pay there's an 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.919 effect that you know, it actually moves up the chain 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.520 to a certain extent. So you have UM landlords, especially 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.440 small landlords, who have have bills to pay, They have 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.480 to pay for utilities, and the city is giving them 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.399 new break on their property taxes. They have to pay 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.880 late penalties, so late with that and UM and they 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.280 entertain the mortgages, so that affects banks. So you know, 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.360 this has widespread impacts. So I want to bring in 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.959 the editor of the magazine now, Joel Weber. He joins 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:31.480 us from Massachusetts. So Joel real Estate cities. This is 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:35.320 right in the Business Week wheelhouse. Help us understand this 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.600 in the in the context of what you're trying to 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.520 do in terms of continuing to tell the story of 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:45.400 this pandemic and the economic aftermath. Well, I mean, the 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.280 the spiraling cost of this thing just just keeps happening, right, 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.440 And I think there's the economic costs of it, and 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:54.840 then there's a human cost of it. And this story 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.560 is sort of an example where the two meet and 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.920 we really, um don't have a way out yet. UM. 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.840 And you know, the things that have been kind of 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.840 put in place UM felt like temporary stopgap measures. And 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.440 and as the the crisis sort of lingers, UM, I 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.760 think we're all trying to figure out, you know what 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.640 what kind of implications this will ultimately have. UH And 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:19.599 and Prisson, I just wanted to kind of bring that 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.280 back to you. And you know, the New York State 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:26.080 enacted the Tenants Safe Harbor Act UM last month to 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.960 stop evictions, as you know in the story, and and wondering, 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.960 you know what what other kinds of policy UH actions 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:39.120 might we see from UH legislatures UM and similar effects 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.240 going forward. Well, let me linger on this just a 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.159 little bit because I think it's important, like so that 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.520 the Tenants statee Harbor Act. What that does is it 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:51.960 prevents um evictions of people who were impacted by um, 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.080 you know, economic victims of COVID nineteen. So that prevents 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.560 a very short term problem, which is you know, UM 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.000 of a wave of evictions and a potential spike in homelessness, 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.120 which could have been devastating to New York. So that's 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.120 great that you prevent that. But what happens is, UM 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.280 there's a long term effect because tenants are in talk 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:17.000 to their landlords, they owe large amounts of money that 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.800 they will never be able to retay, and UM, with 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.039 each month that passes, they owe more, and then their 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.800 their credit is shot and it's uh, you know because 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:29.400 of this, and then they're not gonna be able to 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.960 maybe very easily moved to another apartment. So they're there, 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.599 you know, there With each potential solution here, there are 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:43.200 UM you know, consequences to that, and that the real 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:48.160 solution might be the federal government stepping in and providing 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.159 rent release in a in a very big way. But 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:53.560 that has not happened. I mean, there's been I think 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.719 some resistance in Congress. UM for Republicans in the Senate. 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.000 So we haven't really seen that yet, right. I think 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.200 of people who had the discussion during the financial crisis 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:04.880 who said, you know what, maybe we should have just 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.680 gone in and short up all of those bad mortgages, 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.120 made mortgage payments, you know, kept people in their homes, 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.560 would have saved the economy, would have protected those financial 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.479 investments that were based on the mortgages. You know. And 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.120 I do wonder if as we try to figure out 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:22.760 the rest of this crisis and what's the best way 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.960 to help out individuals, I feel like, um, do you 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.159 come in and give them some kind of relief, because 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.719 you know, you think about if they if landlords to 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.760 lose tenants and there are people who can't find jobs, 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.479 they can't find new tenants. Potentially, I mean there's this 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:41.440 ugly cycle p some that just keeps ongoing. Absolutely, I mean, 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.600 that's that's what it is. It's like, you know, do you, um, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.680 if you do provide that rent relief. I mean some 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.599 people are worried that you know, it's a disincentive for 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.920 people to work or something like that, right, But but 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.799 by doing that, you end up preventing all these knock 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.520 on effects, which are things that may be very difficult 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.280 to recover from, you know, de curiating buildings, you know, 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:09.279 landas not making repairs, uh, you know, going lands going 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.920 into foreclosure and you know, um, you could just see 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.480 how that could spiral out of control. Right alright, Priscian couple, 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.880 thank you so much. US real estate reporter for Bloomberg, 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.320 Joe Webber, final word to you. Give us a preview 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:24.720 of next week's session. Can you do that? Give us 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.680 a UM. So, I think we've got some really fun 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.040 story that it's interesting. Right, There's like there's the Crisies 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.280 stories and we kind of all, um, you know, it 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.560 feels like this magnetic poll towards them, and we have 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.520 to do those um and we will, you know, with 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:46.080 great interest and public service duty and all of the 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:51.120 great stuff that I think the heroism of journalism requires. Uh. 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:52.800 And then on the other side, there's also just like 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.920 sort of some fun stories all of a sudden. So 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.520 I'm just gonna leave it broad and evasive like that 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.120 and say that there's a little bit of both. I 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:01.680 got a fun one for you. We just talked with 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:07.320 the Mondalese CEO and people are cooking with oreos Joel. Yeah, Well, 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:11.240 you know, oreos have been around for a while. They're 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:15.040 they're trusted and tried and true exactly. And you know, 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.480 if you bring them out in our home, they disappear 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.800 very quickly, whether or not you're dunked in milk or 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.320 you know. I've never attempted to cook with them, but 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.840 you know, I'll take someone's word for it. There is stable. However, 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:33.240 you're the best week and weekend in Massachusetts. Joining us there, 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.640 the editor of the magazine. This is Bloomberg Business Week 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:41.240 with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. I 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.320 gotta say I'm so excited we're gonna get into this 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.480 story because I feel like there has been a theme 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:50.040 this week about the changing world order. In today's Business 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.600 Week Economics, it is about a new world order for 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.840 the coronavirus era, and we're starting to see what it 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:00.199 looks like. Bloomberg News Executive editor for International Government act up. 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.319 As I said on the phone from London, Rosalind Matheson 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.400 joining us, Um, nice to have you here with Jason 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.360 and myself. Tell us about this era that we're in, 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.200 and I do wonder about how the history books are 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.000 going to look back at it, and the economic books 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:15.880 are going to look back at it, and the changes 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:20.200 that we're seeing. It's very interesting because, if anything, what 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.120 we're seeing in a ways an acceleration and a hardening 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.800 of trends that we were already seeing. It's like the 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.080 veneer and a ways being stripped away, and countries are 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.360 showing themselves for what they are. China, for example, is 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.800 very much out and unapologetic with their recent security law 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.240 in Hong Kong, something they probably would not have done 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.559 just a few years ago, but now they're making a 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:42.440 judgment call that they have a mass enough how to 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.199 get away with it that they can wear the punishments 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.440 that come. That's one thing that we're going to see accelerating. Meanwhile, 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:52.280 the U ways is further withdrawing from international organizations and 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.560 showing a willingness to criticize longstanding our lives like Germany. 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:58.920 It's very much the one to one focus games from 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.760 them now with their arrive where we with China, so 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.920 aside from that, it's a country that really is turning inwards. 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:09.439 One way that we will see things possibly being withdrawn 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.240 is that there's a bit of unity and strength coming 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:16.680 into Europe, and that despite Brexit, despite the squabbling that 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:18.600 you see between North and South and so on, and 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.960 that's really under Anglo miracles steady hand, and particularly we 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.760 could see a new role from middle countries, middle powers 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.680 if you like, like Australia, Japan, Canada, South Korea and 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.560 so on, starting to express themselves more basically saying we 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.120 can't rely on the US here, so we'll brand together 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:40.200 and do something. Iselves so rise, I'm so glad you 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.360 brought that up about Europe because I was I was 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:44.560 reading a story some of the coverage that came out 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.840 of I think your team, because you have this massive 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.320 role in the Bloomberg Empire, and it was about the 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.720 an election at the EU Group. Keep me honest here 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.920 that Ireland, the financiment Minister of Ireland sort of won 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.720 this surprise victory. And so you have these countries in Europe, 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.800 even these sort of smaller to mid size economies, who 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.000 were going to be maybe a little more important or 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.160 at least have a louder voice. That's kind of interesting 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.200 in the midst of all this. Right, Well, that's slight 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.880 and in fact that was the victory for the smallest states. 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.640 As you said, and the four biggest economies in Europe 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.760 had supported an alternate candidate to leave what'sne as the 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.280 euro Group, that's the finance ministers really within the EU. 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.240 So that was a real backlash against those and in 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.200 fact it was quite a tight result. They weren't very 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.920 late last night and caused unusual excitements really for the 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.760 euro Group, beyond what we'd normally have. But it's it's 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.680 really a way that we're seeing these countries saying, well, 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.160 we need to put ourselves more out there. There's risk 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.199 to our economies, of course, as we do, for one thing, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:51.000 by taking on China more assertively. But given that we're 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.880 not seeing a real concerted global leadership he called to 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.920 the G seven, the D twenty or whatever, or to 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.040 other institutions, at least countries are saying well, we'll have 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:05.040 to form new alliances ourselves and move those alliances around 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.079 and they'll be based on different things perhaps, And we 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.079 saw those groupings based on before and that's really where 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.360 we're going to see a key shifts happening. I feel 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.640 like a key line in this story by Alan Crawford 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.440 is the problem is that there's no obvious form to 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.520 debate the shape of the post pandemic world. Inness increasingly 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.280 we see countries look inward, right, they're not getting together 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.839 and talking about these issues on a global scale. I'm 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.080 curious what are the implications And is it to be 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.800 expected that you know, the US dominated for a long time, 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.640 right and other you know, parts of the world before that, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.280 and now is it a natural progression that maybe China 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:47.320 becomes the leader. Well, that's that's a very interesting question 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.800 because the US, of course, really was sort of the 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.640 glue that held the post war I think institutions together 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.800 the global order in a way like it led the 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.520 way through these institutions that provided a strong security umbrellas 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.080 many parts of the world, the Pacific, Europe, and so on. 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.079 And it really is withdrawing from that, and those institutions 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.800 are now in fundamental states of change, and the idea 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.400 of the G seven or a G twenty really coming 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.000 out with some kind of coherent statement or policy at 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.720 this point is kind of moot because we've been seeing 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.480 two years under the Trump administration those meetings fall into 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.559 disarray and disagreement. So as you say, what where does 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.360 that lead the idea of kind of organized responses and 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.880 coherent responses, and it will form, perhaps in new and 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.880 different ways, with these smaller groupings what's known as the quad, 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:38.880 which is the US of course, also that India, Japan, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.079 and Australia, UM and it might be China led to 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.800 organizations as well. But at the same time, the UI 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.280 still is the biggest economy on the planet. It successes, 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.000 you need the success of other countries too, um. So 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:52.880 there will be always a role for the U S. 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.800 It's just how big that role would be and so 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.839 rise as you think about, as we think about all 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.079 the time this upcome presidential election here in the United States, 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.920 how does that factor in? And I guess the real 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.640 question is is how much of this is sort of 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.360 unstoppable to to some extent, and how much of it 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.920 may be arrested if there is a change in power 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.720 here in the United States. Well, it's absolutely the big 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.280 wild card. Of course, if Donald Trump wins the game, 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.600 you can imagine him being emboldened and America first becoming 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.080 of America said with a big exclamation mark at the end, 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.680 even more so um and continuation of his policies, but 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.760 even more dramatically so a greater rupturing of the established 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.080 world order. And rent that other actors also to come 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.560 in Russia and Turkey included not just China, but equally 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:45.760 if Joe Biden wins, and even if there is that 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.120 greater outreach to allies, so perhaps a more collaborative mood. 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.640 There can't be a return to the way things were 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.440 because the mood in America has changed too much amongst faces, 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.040 and bically, the mood in the other countries have changed. 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.680 People say it's about America only, but also about the 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.680 way that other countries now see themselves in the world. 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.960 So you'll see greater protectionism, greater unilateral behavior, and so on, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.040 regardless of who is in the White House after November 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.480 just quickly thirty seconds rose, I mean, as a result 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.800 of this, you know, does that mean economies are going 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.440 to struggle more because they're not necessary playing on the 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.880 global stage or not necessarily just quickly, Well, that's a 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.960 very interesting question because we are seeing, of course, country 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.840 is no longer thinking about trade as a unifying factor. 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.840 In fact, they're using trade as a weapon in politics, 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.080 and that really does raise the risk of what we 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.200 see is increasing trade wars, not just between the US 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.840 and China, but also US and Europe. And other countries 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.960 and China. So definitely that atmosphere of less collaboration does 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.440 create economic risks with it. Alright, Roz Mathson, you are 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.480 the best. Thanks for spending some of your Friday evening 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:55.000 with us. Executive editor for International Government for Bloomberg, joining 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.520 us on the phone from London. This is Bloomberg Business 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.560 Week with Carol Mazer and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.520 We are still in the midst of a major national 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.800 and global health crisis, so let's understand where we are 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.680 when it comes to COVID nineteen. We turn again to 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.240 Dr Penny Wheeler at the president CEO of A Line 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.480 of Health, joining us on the phone from Minnesota. This, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:22.920 of course, is a not for profit healthcare system based 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.280 there in Minneapolis, thirteen hospitals, more than ninety clinics across 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.480 the state of Minnesota and western Wisconsin. Dr Wheeler, really 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:32.680 nice to have you back with us. It's nice to 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.280 be back with you. Thank you. So tell us what 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.360 it looks like, what this outbreak looks like on the 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.120 ground there in Minnesota, because I know it's different across 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.240 the country, and I think the last time we talked 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.680 to you it was a few weeks, maybe a couple 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:52.080 of months ago, and a lot has changed in the world. Yeah, yeah, no, 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.240 and a lot of change in our world. So not 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.960 only do we have a COVID crisis, but sitting in 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.800 the middle of Minneapolis, since it's killing of George Floyd 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:04.080 took place, we had a lot of civil unrest UM 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:06.400 that occurred beyond it. So it's kind of crisis upon 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:10.640 crisis here. UM. In terms of the COVID, we actually 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.320 are a little island here right now, a bit in 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.800 the Midwest that is seeing less than the sun Belt 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:21.840 and the western um Coast is seeing. You know. So 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.960 we have had since since May, had a diminution of 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.280 the number of people who required hospitalization down collectively from 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:34.080 like six hundred to UM sorry about that, given given 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.560 the six hundred, about two hundred and we in our 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:44.200 geography UM have had also decline in hospitalization rates even 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:50.000 after the number of significant protests that occurred. Right, well 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:54.200 that Carol brought that up earlier. Interestingly, UM, when we 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.480 were talking about some of these upbreaks, and I think 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:00.240 people wore masks, right, yeah, people did wear man. Okay, 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:01.760 I think that one of the things that saving us 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:03.320 and I was so glad to hear your public service 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:08.440 announcement is really it gets to a concern about caution fatigue, 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:12.640 but wearing masks, physical distancing, washing, hand staying almost those 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.119 things still really matter. And I think we're really worried 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:19.320 about the exponential effects that this can take off if 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.439 we lower our guard. I think even with some of 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.400 the preventive measures, like in a state like California, we've 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:29.640 seen that with some of that relaxation comes higher caseloads 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:34.679 than sadly, higher hostitalizations and deaths as well. What are 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.760 you hearing about, you know, officials and where they are. 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.000 I think earlier this week you met with some of 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:45.920 your state legislators on your response, the state's response and rebuilding. Um, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.720 what's on everybody's minds Because I do feel like there's 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.720 this push and pull between wanting to move forward, get 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.040 the economy back on track, but we're still kind of 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.119 constantly looking behind us or in front of us, you know, 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.879 about the rising virus cases that we're being around the country. 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.560 I think there's still fear of a second wave. UM, 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.479 So I'm just curious what what that meeting was all 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.760 about and what came about. I think it was exactly that. 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.439 It was worry about this balancing. You know, there's not 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.639 lost on us the economic hit that this virus is 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:19.399 causing us, But now seeing what's happening in so many 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.280 other states and geography, is the economic hit greater if 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.560 you if you reduce caution as you reopen. So I 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:32.679 think that largely the testimony was about that. And so 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.240 what's your biggest concern? And maybe you've already said it, 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.159 Dr Wheeler? As you look around the country, and you know, 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.240 I feel like you're sitting in a similar place to 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:43.960 where we are here in the Tri State area, where 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.040 it's like we sort of did the work. The numbers 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.400 are down there trending in the right direction, and yet 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:52.040 they are wildly trending in the wrong direction in the 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.040 rest of the country. So what do people who are 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.600 in these as you say, sort of oases, these sort 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.720 of comfortable or slightly more comfortable places. What do we 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:02.159 do at a time like this? What do we need 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.159 to be working? Yeah, I think caution you know is like, 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.080 for example, one of the big questions in front of 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.280 our legislature was do we go to universal masking? So 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:12.960 do we do? You know, as we open up. Can 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.760 we continue to do that as smartly as possible to 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:21.040 devoid these exponential rises and other geographies so it's really 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.120 hard to close things back down once you've reopened. Can 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.240 you reopen them and have enough you know, civic responsibility 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.800 you know to do that. We know that for example, 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.360 wearing masks, you know, yes, it protects you a little bit, 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.840 but about the protection goes to the people around you 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.879 that that you're protecting from. So if we can do 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.520 those things, then I think we can open up more 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.639 safely and won't see these unfortunate rises we're now just 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.959 starting to see and leading indicator of some case rising 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.840 in our geographies. And and I worry as I look around. 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.640 We're doing pretty well as a geography so far in masking, 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.680 but our mobility increases increased a lot, and people naturally 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.360 there's caution fatigue. But Dr Wheeler, don't you find that amazing? 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.119 I mean, Jason and I kind of laugh about it, 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:07.000 but we don't laugh about it. That this whole idea 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.879 of just wear a mask. You know, you're not losing 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.600 your your rights as a citizen. It's just about keeping 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.560 others safe. And I do find it kind of baffling 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:17.880 that we're still struggling with this and we just unfortunately 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.240 only have about thirty seconds here. But don't you find 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:25.440 that frustrating. I find it totally, un wholeheartedly frustrating. That 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:29.280 doesn't intinge on our our liberties, and quite honestly, it's 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:31.960 a way into service to the rest of humanity by 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.720 protecting others from getting the virus if we may be 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:39.199 in asymptomatic carey ourselves. So please wear masks. Yeah, all right, 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:41.160 we're gonna be We're right there with you. We're gonna 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.120 keep beating this drum uh dr Petty Wheeler. We really 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.080 appreciate President CEO of a Line of Health. Jonas on 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.080 the phone from Minnesota, love catching up with her and 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.720 getting that perspective from the Midwest and man, Minneapolis, they 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:55.560 have been through a lot. As she pointed out, she's 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.000 such a nice Midwesterner because she said, please wear a mask, 0:21:58.040 --> 0:21:59.680