WEBVTT - Taylor Swift vs. The World 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.400 Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.840 social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:13.400 Tim O'Brien. Before we get started, a note to you 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.560 wonderful listeners. This will be Crash Course's final episode. Keeping 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.360 the show afloat while juggling a million other things prove 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.119 to be a challenge. I'm grateful you've tuned in, so 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:30.440 back to it. Today's Crash Course Taylor Swift versus the World. 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.519 This is hardly an original thought. Taylor Swift embodies a 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:39.040 rare cultural presence and moment, and she's everywhere. She inhabits 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.320 her presence amid an unusual amount of glare with an 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.559 unusual amount of grace. But now, and this is what 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.720 feels oddly fresh to me, a lot of weirdness has 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:53.000 attached itself to her. She's encouraged voters to register without 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.920 offering specifics about the twenty twenty four presidential election, but 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.440 Fox and several of its commentators keep warning her to 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:04.120 stay out of politics. Others in Fox's ranks say she's 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:07.920 a military embed the federal government is using for psychological 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:12.960 warfare against who and for what you might ask. In 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.880 her romance with Kansas City Chief star Travis Kelcey it's fake. 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.120 The same crowd says it's part of a different conspiracy, 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.240 one crafted to get Joe Biden elected or boost football ratings. 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.639 Loved simply can't be the reason they're together. I guess 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.199 I don't know. Isn't Taylor Swift a singer? She's also 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.600 a shrewd businesswoman, a conscientious manager of the people who 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.880 work for and with her, responsive and responsible to her fans, 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:42.720 and has kept her wits about her when everyone else 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.920 is losing theirs. Joining me today to examine all of 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.120 this is Emma Gray. Emma co writes a culture substack 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.360 called rich Text, and she's the author of A Girl's 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.320 Guide to Joining the Resistance. She's also a columnist with MSNBC. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.560 Greeting z Emma, and welcome back to the show. 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.760 I'm so excited to be back to talk about all 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:06.880 of this Maga meltdown surrounding Taylor Swift. What a delight. 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.440 Yeah. Well, the last time you joined, you schooled me 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.000 about the meaning of Barbie the movie, and we talked 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:15.120 about all of the ins and outs of Barbie, and 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:16.920 so when I wanted to get into this topic, I 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.200 thought who will be my guide on this little journey. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.040 You automatically popped up in my mind. 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:22.880 I'm honored. 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:24.080 You know. 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.160 There's so many ways into a Taylor Swift discussion, but 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:31.120 let's start oddly, perhaps with football. The Super Bowl was 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:35.760 played last weekend. I'm not sure what the viewer tallies were, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.360 but last year one hundred and fifteen million people watched it. 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.040 So it's one of these centerpiece events in American culture, 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.240 for better or for worse. And this thought has emerged 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.000 that this thirty four year old star is an intruder, 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.600 and that she doesn't deserve the attention she gets when 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.919 her boyfriend's football team plays, and that it distracts people 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.600 from the game, and it distracts people, I guess, from 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.280 the meaning of life, even though I think she's lending 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.760 in disputable brand value to the NFL and the Kansas 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.639 City Chiefs and her boyfriend. What do you make of 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:15.079 this when you see this sort of miasma of weird 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.320 observations about their romance and football come into our purview? 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.519 It is such a rich tapestry to dig into, honestly, 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.560 and this is something that I've been mulling over for 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.400 the last couple months watching, as you said, the profound 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:37.800 weirdness of right wing white men turning against the NFL 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:42.360 and a white football player who is dating a white 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.760 former country singer. And I think what we're seeing, in 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:52.760 part is this profound discomfort with girls and women having 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.640 any sort of centrality to culture. Like I think that 0:03:55.720 --> 0:04:00.440 there are a segment of conservative men who see football 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.280 as their purview, as the place that they are king, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:09.320 and they are profoundly threatened by the fact that this 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:14.480 woman is getting any attention in that venue that they 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:19.120 perceived to be theirs, which first of all, is ridiculous 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:23.919 on its face, because there have always been women football fans, 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.960 so it has never been only a venue for men. 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:30.600 But I think that there has been that cultural perception, 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.560 and Taylor's presence and the fact that she is bringing 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:39.360 more people to these football games feels like evidence that like, 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.960 it's not theirs anymore. And I think that there is 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:50.599 this desire to create a wider justification for why that's happening. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:54.039 And it can't just be that Taylor Swift is dating 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.720 Travis Kelcey and wants to show up to support her 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.680 boyfriend as he has showed up to her air tour 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.159 and they want to have a cute little public romance 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:08.240 that is mutually beneficial, probably both personally and professionally for 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.440 both of them. It has to be that Joe Biden 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.680 and the Pentagon are conspiring, you know, in some sort 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.080 of deep state operation, right, And at the end of 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:22.560 the day, I think it all comes back to the 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.320 fact that there are a lot of men who are 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.719 really uncomfortable and have a lot of anxiety about the 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.240 giralification of popular culture. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.279 The same men, by the way, who are very content 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.520 to look at rows of cheerleaders. Female cheerleaders stand on 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.600 the field and dance and do other things, and they 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.320 don't call it a distraction. They actually think of it 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:44.840 as a fundamental part of the game. This is the 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.479 same group of men, largely men who can't wait for 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.719 a variety of bonkers ads that air during the Super 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.520 Bowl and take time away from the game itself. This 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.080 is the same group of men who watch and can't 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.560 wait for halftime shows that often also feature female stars, 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:06.240 and yet a woman in a red jacket cheering for 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.920 her boyfriend in a skybox who on average, I think 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:11.919 the New York Times did a breakdown. I think in 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:16.119 most games that Taylor Swift has attended, the average amount 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.840 of actual airtime she gets is in the neighborhood of 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:19.920 twenty five seconds. 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:24.479 Well it's too much, tim Okay, frankly, it's too much. 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.280 And it's like just you know, bury your head in 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.440 your nachos and look away from the screen, right, or 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.039 shoot some beer on your buddy on the couch, not 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:33.680 a bunch light. 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:36.320 Very threatened by blud bud lights. 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.320 Well that's bad. Bud Light's bad. But you know, the 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.920 interesting like as a case study, so beyond these things 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.719 that I think are obviously ridiculous and speak more to 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:51.039 men's insecurity about their own identities and their openness to 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.560 being in the presence of empowered and powerful women. That 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.840 feels like really obvious to me as sort of ten 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.560 pole things for men to consider here rather than Taylor Swift. 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:06.240 But there have always been political and social controversies that 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.760 have wrapped themselves around football. Aaron Rodgers, at the time 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.200 he was the Green Bay Packers quarterback, didn't want to 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:14.440 get veaxed in the middle of a pandemic and the 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.840 COVID lockdowns, And he knew he was making a statement. 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:22.400 He himself was politicizing the sport. And then famously, when 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.920 a number of different black NFL players took knees during 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:30.640 the National Anthem to protest violence against blacks by the police, 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.200 that was considered a no no. No one really felt 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.840 that Aaron Rodgers should quiet down, but other forms of 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:42.520 protests were deemed not part of the game, you know. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.320 And then in the kind of the back lot of 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.880 the football industry, there's been a lot of misogyny. There's 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:53.400 been problems with players assaulting women, sexism in the NFL offices. 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.600 And so I think this is such an interesting tableat 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.680 and then suddenly you have Taylor Swift table and she's 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.320 become a pinata. Do you think that's just going to 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:08.480 be a permanent feature of football discussions? Is its collision 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:09.520 with the popular culture? 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.320 I think so, And I think that it makes a 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.120 lot of sense to me. I think we have this 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.680 fantasy in certain segments of American life that we can 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.880 just take politics out of something, when politics is inherently 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.600 embedded in everything in our lives, and certainly in football, 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:34.280 which is seen as a fundamentally American sport which makes 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:39.559 a ton of money for a ton of people, which 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:44.040 creates celebrity which interacts with celebrity. I mean, this is 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.199 a hotbed for political and cultural analysis and the way 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.160 that they intersect with each other. And so I think, yeah, 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.200 as you said, Taylor Swift is kind of just the 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:59.240 latest iteration of this. And because she has become this 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:04.480 I think stratospherically famous individual in a way that few 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:11.120 people do. Her presence, there is just rife for commentary 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:16.440 on both sides, for adoration from certain segments of the 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.719 population and for vilification from other segments. And I think 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:25.240 just a lot is projected onto her. And it is 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:29.319 interesting to me the way that certain segments of the population, 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:32.400 you know, for example, the right are very selective about 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.600 their desire for celebrity to intrude into the NFL. As 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.960 you said, Aaron Rodgers being anti vax that was great, 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.480 But Colin Kaepernick, you've gone too far. 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.719 Or the camera panning to Matthew McConaughey in the stands, well, 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.839 that's Patriots alone. You know, like no one says, hey, 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:54.800 you're distracting me from the game right now? Why is 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.360 that movie star on my screen for a nanosecond. 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:01.400 There is just also it's so distinctly embedded in our 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.880 ideas of gender to consider a fully covered up woman 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:10.520 who's merely there to be a distraction, Like it gives 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:14.880 me shades of a very juvenile reading of girls at 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.959 school can't show their shoulders because they will distract the boys, 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.640 Like there is this fundamental kind of underestimation of men 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:27.760 built into that, Like, sir, your cognitive skills are being 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:33.120 strained by four seconds of a blonde lady in the stands, 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.319 Like unpack that for a minute. 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.319 Dropping f bombs sometimes too, by the way up there 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.439 in the stands. You know. Another factor in this I 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.319 think is very interesting is that the football player capital 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.559 T capital F capital P occupies this place in American 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:55.000 men's imaginations about what being masculine entails and living large 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.319 in the world and playing a sport in which you're 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.560 going up against other very big men and trying to 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.880 beat them on the battlefield of football. You have someone 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:08.200 who is a primo example of that specimen in Travis Kelsey, 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:13.080 and he's very comfortable being with an in charge woman 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.720 who makes much more money than he does and has 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:22.400 much more celebrity traction than he does, and he's happy 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.160 with that. And I sort of that is a challenge 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.480 to men as well. Travis Kelcey in this combination, I 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:32.200 think is also as threatening to you know, the male 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.920 viewership as Taylor Swift is. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.160 Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think there is something that 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:44.080 feels unsettling to some men to see this guy who 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:49.400 in so many ways embodies the platonic ideal of American masculinity, 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:55.280 and yet that is confounded to an extent by his relationship. 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.760 And yeah, his comfort with being with someone who is 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.840 more famous and you know, having a billion dollar tour. 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.840 Travis Kelsey is about as famous as a football player 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.800 can get, but he is not Taylor Swift. That is 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:13.240 simply a different level. And yeah, I think that there 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:17.120 are a lot of male fantasies, specifically white male fantasies, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:21.880 that are contained within the game of football, and any 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:26.599 deviation from that feels threatening. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:31.119 If it's a deviation that doesn't encompass the already acceptable. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.120 So it's okay to have a male star on the 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:36.160 camera but not a female star. It's okay to have 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.560 female cheerleaders but not successful female musicians. 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.319 Because they're not overshadowy, they're just objects for male entertainment. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.240 Tim see the thing? 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.400 Oh, now I get it. See, that's why I needed 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.400 you here today. You know. In a similar vein, there 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.359 was this recent New York Times essay about Taylor Swift's 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.320 sexual identity, and in a piece that I regarded as 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.520 poorly put together and I don't like taking other journalists 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.160 to task on the air, but it was an empirically 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.520 dubious piece in terms of I think the goal of 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:14.080 the piece was to say, Taylor Swift is a closeted 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.240 gay woman and it would be healthy for her to 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.360 come out of the closet because it would be empowering 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.560 for other members of the gay community. That's fine, I 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:23.360 think as a goal, But then I think, if you're 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.320 going to prove your case, you really have to assemble 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.280 the argument. And getting back to our theme of the 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.360 weird conspiracy theories that attached themselves to Taylor Swift, I 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.120 felt the writer of that particular piece was sort of 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:39.680 finding coded meanings in the titles of albums or things 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.160 that Taylor Swift had set on stage and sort of 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.960 plucking cues out of somewhat thin air to make a 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.200 case for her and for her own needs and her 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.880 own argument. And again that feels thematically of a fit 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:58.240 of why do these kinds of theories attach themselves to her? 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.000 Yeah, I mean I think that part of it is 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:07.240 that she is someone who is known to include Easter 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:11.560 eggs in her lyrics and her videos. She plays with 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.240 that that is part of the fun. In my understanding 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.959 of being a hardcore swiftye is to try to glean 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.040 greater understanding about this artist that you admire through all 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.080 of these things. And I feel like what that piece 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:31.680 misunderstood is that there is a difference between speculating about 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:38.120 Taylor's sexuality in the New York Times versus being on 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:43.040 TikTok as a fan and allowing yourself a queer reading 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:49.240 of her persona or her lyrics like that seems fun 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:54.200 and healthy and fair and the other. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.200 There's one of the powerful things music does exactly right, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.720 exactly It allows people to feel seen right way right. 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.080 And I'm sure for her some of that is intentional, 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:04.960 But to put it in an op ed in the 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.640 New York Times, to me said, we as a public 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:13.000 are entitled to you, Taylor Swift, disclosing every bit of 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.880 your sexual identity to us. And I don't think that's 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:20.080 something that we can ask of our celebrities, and. 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.280 In fact, you owe us that right. You not only 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.040 should do this, but you owe it to society because 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.560 with fame comes power, and with power comes responsibility. Therefore, 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.480 out yourself, right out yourself. Damn it. Let's take a 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.120 quick break and hear from a sponsor and that I 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.360 want to come back with the other odd intersection Taylor 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.840 Swift and her intersection with American politics. After this break, 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.840 I'm back with emmcgray, who's helping me sort out some 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.720 of the madness surrounding Taylor Swift. Emma, I'm going to 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.040 quote one of the more lunar members of the Fox 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.600 talk show The Five, Jeanine Piro, on a recent episode, 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.120 speaking of Taylor Swift, she said, why would someone as 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:08.120 popular as she is alienate your fans, the Swifties. So 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.320 don't get involved. Don't get involved in politics. We don't 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.440 want to see you there. So others in MAGA media 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.800 have said similar things about Again, you know, in the 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.840 prior section we're talking about her intrusion onto the American 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.440 pastime of football. This is now warning her that she 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:30.280 shouldn't intrude on the civic virtue of participatory politics. What 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:31.480 do you make of that. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.160 It really is giving strong shades of shut up and 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:41.160 singing to the Dixie Chicks after they made a statement 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.760 about the Iraq War, Like, I think that there is 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:50.280 this desire, certainly on the right, to look at cultural 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.120 figures who are inconvenient for their narratives and say, stay 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:58.960 in your lane. But Donald Trump is a celebrity. He 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:03.640 was a celebrity before he was elected president. Ronald Reagan 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.080 was right, like, this is the party that has actively 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:13.199 elected presidents who are boosted by their celebrity. And so 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:18.600 again we're seeing that very selective feeling about celebrity. If 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:23.199 you are going to disagree with the maga politics, you 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.480 need to shut up. You need to stay in your land. 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.200 Don't go to football games, don't ask people to vote, 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:33.639 don't endorse anyone, don't state to political opinion. But if 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:39.359 you are going to boost the conspiracy theory that COVID 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:46.240 vaccines are evil, then great, use that platform. We need you. 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.040 You know, you just got me thinking about a very 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:50.840 interesting thing that I hadn't been thinking about before we 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.040 been talking, which is what kind of celebrity has allowed 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:56.320 to intersect with politics and what kind isn't. And I'm 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.719 thinking back to the twenty sixteen presidential election, and I 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:01.639 was in a green room at NBC and I was 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:05.679 speaking with a political consultant about what the chances of 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.320 Trump winning the election were and I was dubious, totally wrong, 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.680 And he said, you really can't underestimate the power of celebrity. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.840 He said, if you looked at the Arnold Schwarzenegger candidacy 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:21.359 for governor in California and Jesse Ventura ex wrestlers run 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.480 for the governorship in Minnesota. In both of those races, 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.280 he said, towards the very end of the election, both 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:33.640 of them enjoyed these huge spikes in voter attention, voter allegiance, 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.719 and then raw voting because of their celebrity. And he said, 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:39.879 you know that could just accrue to Donald Trump in 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.400 this election too. And of course the maga wright knows 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.040 it's one of his secret powers now and Fox knows 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.680 that about him. And I think when they see it 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.360 in others, it's come out in Fox's opposition to more 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:58.439 charismatic democratic politicians. They identify them early. I think of 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:03.000 AOC as Bill example of that. Within minutes of being elected, 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.520 she became kind of a target for beware you know 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.000 she's part of the woke left, progressive la la la 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.240 la la, and I think that's what's insenting this kind 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:15.200 of fear of Taylor Swift's entry into the political landscape. 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.360 That's such a good point, that's such a good way 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:19.560 to put it. And I think that's exactly right because 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.760 you look at, for example, something that really set off 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.680 the MAGA right, which is that Taylor Swift encouraged her 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.960 fans on Instagram to register to vote. She did not 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.040 say registered to vote as a Democrat. She simply said 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:38.000 registered to vote, and that was deeply threatening to segments 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:39.800 of the right. And what I think that tells us 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.199 a couple of things. One that the Republican Party is 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.280 deeply invested in as few people participating in our political 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:52.640 system as possible. And second that, yeah, that they perceive 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:58.840 Taylor Swift's celebrity and platform to be a fundamental threat 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:03.200 to their political ends. And I think that, yeah, that's 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:04.760 exactly that's exactly it. 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.160 I'm glad you brought up that Instagram post because there's 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.119 interesting data to be had around that. She doesn't have 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.359 just any old Instagram platform. She has nearly two hundred 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.800 and eighty million followers on Instagram. It's kind of a 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.880 mind boggling number, and after she encouraged people to register 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.720 vote dot Org at the time said I think within 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.800 a relatively short period of time, thirty five thousand people 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.320 registered to vote, you know, in response to her entreaties, which, 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.679 by the way, has always been in every history class 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.520 anyone takes, and in any of the mythology or literature 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:46.320 surrounding the American journey and the American experiences, that voting 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:50.720 is for everyone. Everyone should register. It's good civic duty 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.880 to do so. It's not about partisanship or ideology. It's 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:57.359 just about participating in the life of your country. And 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.560 this woman suggests, yeah, everybody should do that, and Maga 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.639 world freaks out exactly, you know, I think, beyond her 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:10.280 celebrity though they know, she's also has positioned herself publicly 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:14.119 around certain issues. In twenty eighteen, she posted something to 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:15.960 social media that I want to quote at length because 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.320 I think it shows where her head is at and 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:21.840 what she's willing to do with her celebrity. She said, 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:24.760 I have and always will cast my vote based on 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.639 which candidate will protect and fight for the human rights. 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.560 I believe we all deserve in this country. I believe 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.960 in the fight for LGBTQ rights and that any form 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.960 of discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender is wrong. 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.600 I believe that the systemic racism we still see in 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:46.360 this country towards people of color is terrifying, sickening, and prevalent. 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.080 It's very clear where she stands. She's got a lot 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:54.119 of courage, she's articulate, and there's probably in what I 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:56.800 just read at least a dozen words that would make 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:01.159 Maga lands head explode. Yes, she had to expect some 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:03.240 of this to come at her. How do you think 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:07.119 she's comported herself amid all these things that cling to her. 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:10.119 I think she's handled it remarkably well. And you know, 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:13.360 she has a great team surrounding her, who I think 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.000 probably I'm assuming that probably helps kind of insulate from 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.880 some of it. But we know from everything that she's 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:26.320 said and her documentary like that her deciding to for 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:30.400 the first time be publicly political was not a decision 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.919 taken lightly, and it was certainly something that a lot 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.760 of people around her thought she shouldn't do. And early 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.680 in her career there were a lot of questions swirling 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:45.120 around her. You know, this white blonde woman who comes 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.960 from the country world. Is she conservative? Is she getting 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:51.840 all of these liberal fans to come and support her? 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:55.040 And she actually is opposed to the human rights that 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:58.760 feel core to a lot of her fan base. And 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.639 she answered the question with this statement, and you know, 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:08.600 with her subsequent endorsement of Biden in twenty twenty. And 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:10.879 I think that, yeah, as you said, she has a 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:15.040 huge platform, and she has been able to maintain and 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:20.119 grow her celebrity in the wake of being open about 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.200 her political stances. And I think that that is probably 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:26.760 also what makes segments of the right very scared of her. 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:31.240 She has not crumbled, right, She has not received the 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:34.240 backlash that has affected her bottom line in the way that, 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:35.920 for example, the Dixie Chicks did. 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:38.240 That is completely true, and I think we're going to 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:39.960 get it in the back end of the show. We'll 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:42.720 get into the kind of financial power and independence she's 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.720 established for herself that other artists haven't enjoyed when they've 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:50.200 spoken out. When you mentioned before about she's also scaring 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:53.240 the right. One of my favorite recent examples of the 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:57.639 kind of imaginative and conspiratorial lengths her critics will go 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:00.719 to to sort of build up. Pair noy about her 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:05.000 was when when Jesse Waters, another Fox bro, recently speculated 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:08.760 that she's a government plant waging a form of psychological 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:13.200 warfare and that her Era's concert tour. I'm sorry, it's 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:16.000 so hard for me to even just state this without laughing, 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:18.480 because it's sort of fun and funny, but it's like, 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.560 don't people have better things to do? Anyway? He warned 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:25.199 that her Era's concert tour was a phenomenon because the 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:28.960 Defense Department was backing it. Have you found evid evidence 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:31.800 in your own reporting that the Defense Department is using 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:34.439 her as an embed to wage psychological warfare on the 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.240 American people? And if so, tell us now, Emma, I 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:37.680