1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Before we get started, a note to you 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: wonderful listeners. This will be Crash Course's final episode. Keeping 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: the show afloat while juggling a million other things prove 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: to be a challenge. I'm grateful you've tuned in, so 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: back to it. Today's Crash Course Taylor Swift versus the World. 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: This is hardly an original thought. Taylor Swift embodies a 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: rare cultural presence and moment, and she's everywhere. She inhabits 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: her presence amid an unusual amount of glare with an 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: unusual amount of grace. But now, and this is what 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: feels oddly fresh to me, a lot of weirdness has 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: attached itself to her. She's encouraged voters to register without 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: offering specifics about the twenty twenty four presidential election, but 15 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: Fox and several of its commentators keep warning her to 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: stay out of politics. Others in Fox's ranks say she's 17 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: a military embed the federal government is using for psychological 18 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: warfare against who and for what you might ask. In 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: her romance with Kansas City Chief star Travis Kelcey it's fake. 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: The same crowd says it's part of a different conspiracy, 21 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: one crafted to get Joe Biden elected or boost football ratings. 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,639 Speaker 1: Loved simply can't be the reason they're together. I guess 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: I don't know. Isn't Taylor Swift a singer? She's also 24 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: a shrewd businesswoman, a conscientious manager of the people who 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: work for and with her, responsive and responsible to her fans, 26 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: and has kept her wits about her when everyone else 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: is losing theirs. Joining me today to examine all of 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: this is Emma Gray. Emma co writes a culture substack 29 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: called rich Text, and she's the author of A Girl's 30 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: Guide to Joining the Resistance. She's also a columnist with MSNBC. 31 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: Greeting z Emma, and welcome back to the show. 32 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be back to talk about all 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: of this Maga meltdown surrounding Taylor Swift. What a delight. 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the last time you joined, you schooled me 35 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: about the meaning of Barbie the movie, and we talked 36 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: about all of the ins and outs of Barbie, and 37 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: so when I wanted to get into this topic, I 38 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: thought who will be my guide on this little journey. 39 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: You automatically popped up in my mind. 40 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: I'm honored. 41 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 3: You know. 42 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: There's so many ways into a Taylor Swift discussion, but 43 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: let's start oddly, perhaps with football. The Super Bowl was 44 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: played last weekend. I'm not sure what the viewer tallies were, 45 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: but last year one hundred and fifteen million people watched it. 46 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: So it's one of these centerpiece events in American culture, 47 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: for better or for worse. And this thought has emerged 48 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: that this thirty four year old star is an intruder, 49 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: and that she doesn't deserve the attention she gets when 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: her boyfriend's football team plays, and that it distracts people 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: from the game, and it distracts people, I guess, from 52 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: the meaning of life, even though I think she's lending 53 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: in disputable brand value to the NFL and the Kansas 54 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: City Chiefs and her boyfriend. What do you make of 55 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: this when you see this sort of miasma of weird 56 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: observations about their romance and football come into our purview? 57 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 2: It is such a rich tapestry to dig into, honestly, 58 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: and this is something that I've been mulling over for 59 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 2: the last couple months watching, as you said, the profound 60 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: weirdness of right wing white men turning against the NFL 61 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: and a white football player who is dating a white 62 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: former country singer. And I think what we're seeing, in 63 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: part is this profound discomfort with girls and women having 64 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: any sort of centrality to culture. Like I think that 65 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: there are a segment of conservative men who see football 66 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: as their purview, as the place that they are king, 67 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: and they are profoundly threatened by the fact that this 68 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: woman is getting any attention in that venue that they 69 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: perceived to be theirs, which first of all, is ridiculous 70 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 2: on its face, because there have always been women football fans, 71 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: so it has never been only a venue for men. 72 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 2: But I think that there has been that cultural perception, 73 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: and Taylor's presence and the fact that she is bringing 74 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: more people to these football games feels like evidence that like, 75 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: it's not theirs anymore. And I think that there is 76 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: this desire to create a wider justification for why that's happening. 77 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 2: And it can't just be that Taylor Swift is dating 78 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 2: Travis Kelcey and wants to show up to support her 79 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: boyfriend as he has showed up to her air tour 80 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 2: and they want to have a cute little public romance 81 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: that is mutually beneficial, probably both personally and professionally for 82 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: both of them. It has to be that Joe Biden 83 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: and the Pentagon are conspiring, you know, in some sort 84 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 2: of deep state operation, right, And at the end of 85 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: the day, I think it all comes back to the 86 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: fact that there are a lot of men who are 87 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: really uncomfortable and have a lot of anxiety about the 88 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: giralification of popular culture. 89 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: The same men, by the way, who are very content 90 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: to look at rows of cheerleaders. Female cheerleaders stand on 91 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: the field and dance and do other things, and they 92 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: don't call it a distraction. They actually think of it 93 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: as a fundamental part of the game. This is the 94 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: same group of men, largely men who can't wait for 95 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: a variety of bonkers ads that air during the Super 96 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: Bowl and take time away from the game itself. This 97 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: is the same group of men who watch and can't 98 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: wait for halftime shows that often also feature female stars, 99 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: and yet a woman in a red jacket cheering for 100 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: her boyfriend in a skybox who on average, I think 101 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: the New York Times did a breakdown. I think in 102 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,119 Speaker 1: most games that Taylor Swift has attended, the average amount 103 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: of actual airtime she gets is in the neighborhood of 104 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: twenty five seconds. 105 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 2: Well it's too much, tim Okay, frankly, it's too much. 106 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: And it's like just you know, bury your head in 107 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: your nachos and look away from the screen, right, or 108 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: shoot some beer on your buddy on the couch, not 109 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: a bunch light. 110 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: Very threatened by blud bud lights. 111 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: Well that's bad. Bud Light's bad. But you know, the 112 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: interesting like as a case study, so beyond these things 113 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: that I think are obviously ridiculous and speak more to 114 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: men's insecurity about their own identities and their openness to 115 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: being in the presence of empowered and powerful women. That 116 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: feels like really obvious to me as sort of ten 117 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: pole things for men to consider here rather than Taylor Swift. 118 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: But there have always been political and social controversies that 119 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: have wrapped themselves around football. Aaron Rodgers, at the time 120 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: he was the Green Bay Packers quarterback, didn't want to 121 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: get veaxed in the middle of a pandemic and the 122 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: COVID lockdowns, And he knew he was making a statement. 123 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: He himself was politicizing the sport. And then famously, when 124 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: a number of different black NFL players took knees during 125 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: the National Anthem to protest violence against blacks by the police, 126 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: that was considered a no no. No one really felt 127 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: that Aaron Rodgers should quiet down, but other forms of 128 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: protests were deemed not part of the game, you know. 129 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: And then in the kind of the back lot of 130 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: the football industry, there's been a lot of misogyny. There's 131 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: been problems with players assaulting women, sexism in the NFL offices. 132 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: And so I think this is such an interesting tableat 133 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: and then suddenly you have Taylor Swift table and she's 134 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: become a pinata. Do you think that's just going to 135 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: be a permanent feature of football discussions? Is its collision 136 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: with the popular culture? 137 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 2: I think so, And I think that it makes a 138 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: lot of sense to me. I think we have this 139 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: fantasy in certain segments of American life that we can 140 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: just take politics out of something, when politics is inherently 141 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: embedded in everything in our lives, and certainly in football, 142 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: which is seen as a fundamentally American sport which makes 143 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 2: a ton of money for a ton of people, which 144 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: creates celebrity which interacts with celebrity. I mean, this is 145 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 2: a hotbed for political and cultural analysis and the way 146 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: that they intersect with each other. And so I think, yeah, 147 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: as you said, Taylor Swift is kind of just the 148 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: latest iteration of this. And because she has become this 149 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: I think stratospherically famous individual in a way that few 150 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: people do. Her presence, there is just rife for commentary 151 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: on both sides, for adoration from certain segments of the 152 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 2: population and for vilification from other segments. And I think 153 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: just a lot is projected onto her. And it is 154 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 2: interesting to me the way that certain segments of the population, 155 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: you know, for example, the right are very selective about 156 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: their desire for celebrity to intrude into the NFL. As 157 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: you said, Aaron Rodgers being anti vax that was great, 158 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: But Colin Kaepernick, you've gone too far. 159 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,719 Speaker 1: Or the camera panning to Matthew McConaughey in the stands, well, 160 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 1: that's Patriots alone. You know, like no one says, hey, 161 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: you're distracting me from the game right now? Why is 162 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: that movie star on my screen for a nanosecond. 163 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: There is just also it's so distinctly embedded in our 164 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: ideas of gender to consider a fully covered up woman 165 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: who's merely there to be a distraction, Like it gives 166 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: me shades of a very juvenile reading of girls at 167 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 2: school can't show their shoulders because they will distract the boys, 168 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: Like there is this fundamental kind of underestimation of men 169 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: built into that, Like, sir, your cognitive skills are being 170 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 2: strained by four seconds of a blonde lady in the stands, 171 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 2: Like unpack that for a minute. 172 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: Dropping f bombs sometimes too, by the way up there 173 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: in the stands. You know. Another factor in this I 174 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: think is very interesting is that the football player capital 175 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: T capital F capital P occupies this place in American 176 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: men's imaginations about what being masculine entails and living large 177 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: in the world and playing a sport in which you're 178 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: going up against other very big men and trying to 179 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: beat them on the battlefield of football. You have someone 180 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: who is a primo example of that specimen in Travis Kelsey, 181 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: and he's very comfortable being with an in charge woman 182 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: who makes much more money than he does and has 183 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: much more celebrity traction than he does, and he's happy 184 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: with that. And I sort of that is a challenge 185 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: to men as well. Travis Kelcey in this combination, I 186 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: think is also as threatening to you know, the male 187 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: viewership as Taylor Swift is. 188 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think there is something that 189 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 2: feels unsettling to some men to see this guy who 190 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: in so many ways embodies the platonic ideal of American masculinity, 191 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: and yet that is confounded to an extent by his relationship. 192 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: And yeah, his comfort with being with someone who is 193 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 2: more famous and you know, having a billion dollar tour. 194 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: Travis Kelsey is about as famous as a football player 195 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: can get, but he is not Taylor Swift. That is 196 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: simply a different level. And yeah, I think that there 197 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: are a lot of male fantasies, specifically white male fantasies, 198 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: that are contained within the game of football, and any 199 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,599 Speaker 2: deviation from that feels threatening. 200 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,119 Speaker 1: If it's a deviation that doesn't encompass the already acceptable. 201 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: So it's okay to have a male star on the 202 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: camera but not a female star. It's okay to have 203 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: female cheerleaders but not successful female musicians. 204 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 2: Because they're not overshadowy, they're just objects for male entertainment. 205 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 3: Tim see the thing? 206 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: Oh, now I get it. See, that's why I needed 207 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: you here today. You know. In a similar vein, there 208 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,359 Speaker 1: was this recent New York Times essay about Taylor Swift's 209 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: sexual identity, and in a piece that I regarded as 210 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: poorly put together and I don't like taking other journalists 211 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: to task on the air, but it was an empirically 212 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: dubious piece in terms of I think the goal of 213 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: the piece was to say, Taylor Swift is a closeted 214 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: gay woman and it would be healthy for her to 215 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: come out of the closet because it would be empowering 216 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: for other members of the gay community. That's fine, I 217 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: think as a goal, But then I think, if you're 218 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: going to prove your case, you really have to assemble 219 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: the argument. And getting back to our theme of the 220 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: weird conspiracy theories that attached themselves to Taylor Swift, I 221 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: felt the writer of that particular piece was sort of 222 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: finding coded meanings in the titles of albums or things 223 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: that Taylor Swift had set on stage and sort of 224 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: plucking cues out of somewhat thin air to make a 225 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: case for her and for her own needs and her 226 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: own argument. And again that feels thematically of a fit 227 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: of why do these kinds of theories attach themselves to her? 228 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that part of it is 229 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: that she is someone who is known to include Easter 230 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: eggs in her lyrics and her videos. She plays with 231 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: that that is part of the fun. In my understanding 232 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 2: of being a hardcore swiftye is to try to glean 233 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: greater understanding about this artist that you admire through all 234 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: of these things. And I feel like what that piece 235 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: misunderstood is that there is a difference between speculating about 236 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 2: Taylor's sexuality in the New York Times versus being on 237 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 2: TikTok as a fan and allowing yourself a queer reading 238 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: of her persona or her lyrics like that seems fun 239 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 2: and healthy and fair and the other. 240 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: There's one of the powerful things music does exactly right, 241 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: exactly It allows people to feel seen right way right. 242 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: And I'm sure for her some of that is intentional, 243 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: But to put it in an op ed in the 244 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: New York Times, to me said, we as a public 245 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: are entitled to you, Taylor Swift, disclosing every bit of 246 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: your sexual identity to us. And I don't think that's 247 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: something that we can ask of our celebrities, and. 248 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: In fact, you owe us that right. You not only 249 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: should do this, but you owe it to society because 250 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: with fame comes power, and with power comes responsibility. Therefore, 251 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: out yourself, right out yourself. Damn it. Let's take a 252 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: quick break and hear from a sponsor and that I 253 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: want to come back with the other odd intersection Taylor 254 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: Swift and her intersection with American politics. After this break, 255 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: I'm back with emmcgray, who's helping me sort out some 256 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: of the madness surrounding Taylor Swift. Emma, I'm going to 257 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: quote one of the more lunar members of the Fox 258 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: talk show The Five, Jeanine Piro, on a recent episode, 259 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: speaking of Taylor Swift, she said, why would someone as 260 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: popular as she is alienate your fans, the Swifties. So 261 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: don't get involved. Don't get involved in politics. We don't 262 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: want to see you there. So others in MAGA media 263 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: have said similar things about Again, you know, in the 264 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: prior section we're talking about her intrusion onto the American 265 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: pastime of football. This is now warning her that she 266 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't intrude on the civic virtue of participatory politics. What 267 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: do you make of that. 268 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: It really is giving strong shades of shut up and 269 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: singing to the Dixie Chicks after they made a statement 270 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: about the Iraq War, Like, I think that there is 271 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 2: this desire, certainly on the right, to look at cultural 272 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: figures who are inconvenient for their narratives and say, stay 273 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: in your lane. But Donald Trump is a celebrity. He 274 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 2: was a celebrity before he was elected president. Ronald Reagan 275 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: was right, like, this is the party that has actively 276 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 2: elected presidents who are boosted by their celebrity. And so 277 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: again we're seeing that very selective feeling about celebrity. If 278 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 2: you are going to disagree with the maga politics, you 279 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: need to shut up. You need to stay in your land. 280 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 2: Don't go to football games, don't ask people to vote, 281 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: don't endorse anyone, don't state to political opinion. But if 282 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: you are going to boost the conspiracy theory that COVID 283 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: vaccines are evil, then great, use that platform. We need you. 284 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: You know, you just got me thinking about a very 285 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: interesting thing that I hadn't been thinking about before we 286 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: been talking, which is what kind of celebrity has allowed 287 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: to intersect with politics and what kind isn't. And I'm 288 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,719 Speaker 1: thinking back to the twenty sixteen presidential election, and I 289 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: was in a green room at NBC and I was 290 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: speaking with a political consultant about what the chances of 291 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: Trump winning the election were and I was dubious, totally wrong, 292 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: And he said, you really can't underestimate the power of celebrity. 293 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: He said, if you looked at the Arnold Schwarzenegger candidacy 294 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: for governor in California and Jesse Ventura ex wrestlers run 295 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: for the governorship in Minnesota. In both of those races, 296 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: he said, towards the very end of the election, both 297 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: of them enjoyed these huge spikes in voter attention, voter allegiance, 298 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 1: and then raw voting because of their celebrity. And he said, 299 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: you know that could just accrue to Donald Trump in 300 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: this election too. And of course the maga wright knows 301 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: it's one of his secret powers now and Fox knows 302 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: that about him. And I think when they see it 303 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: in others, it's come out in Fox's opposition to more 304 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: charismatic democratic politicians. They identify them early. I think of 305 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: AOC as Bill example of that. Within minutes of being elected, 306 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: she became kind of a target for beware you know 307 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: she's part of the woke left, progressive la la la 308 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: la la, and I think that's what's insenting this kind 309 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: of fear of Taylor Swift's entry into the political landscape. 310 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 2: That's such a good point, that's such a good way 311 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: to put it. And I think that's exactly right because 312 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: you look at, for example, something that really set off 313 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 2: the MAGA right, which is that Taylor Swift encouraged her 314 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: fans on Instagram to register to vote. She did not 315 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: say registered to vote as a Democrat. She simply said 316 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: registered to vote, and that was deeply threatening to segments 317 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: of the right. And what I think that tells us 318 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 2: a couple of things. One that the Republican Party is 319 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: deeply invested in as few people participating in our political 320 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 2: system as possible. And second that, yeah, that they perceive 321 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: Taylor Swift's celebrity and platform to be a fundamental threat 322 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: to their political ends. And I think that, yeah, that's 323 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: exactly that's exactly it. 324 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up that Instagram post because there's 325 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: interesting data to be had around that. She doesn't have 326 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: just any old Instagram platform. She has nearly two hundred 327 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: and eighty million followers on Instagram. It's kind of a 328 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: mind boggling number, and after she encouraged people to register 329 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: vote dot Org at the time said I think within 330 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: a relatively short period of time, thirty five thousand people 331 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: registered to vote, you know, in response to her entreaties, which, 332 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: by the way, has always been in every history class 333 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: anyone takes, and in any of the mythology or literature 334 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: surrounding the American journey and the American experiences, that voting 335 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: is for everyone. Everyone should register. It's good civic duty 336 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: to do so. It's not about partisanship or ideology. It's 337 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: just about participating in the life of your country. And 338 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: this woman suggests, yeah, everybody should do that, and Maga 339 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: world freaks out exactly, you know, I think, beyond her 340 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: celebrity though they know, she's also has positioned herself publicly 341 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: around certain issues. In twenty eighteen, she posted something to 342 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: social media that I want to quote at length because 343 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: I think it shows where her head is at and 344 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: what she's willing to do with her celebrity. She said, 345 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: I have and always will cast my vote based on 346 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: which candidate will protect and fight for the human rights. 347 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: I believe we all deserve in this country. I believe 348 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: in the fight for LGBTQ rights and that any form 349 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: of discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender is wrong. 350 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: I believe that the systemic racism we still see in 351 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: this country towards people of color is terrifying, sickening, and prevalent. 352 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: It's very clear where she stands. She's got a lot 353 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: of courage, she's articulate, and there's probably in what I 354 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: just read at least a dozen words that would make 355 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: Maga lands head explode. Yes, she had to expect some 356 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: of this to come at her. How do you think 357 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: she's comported herself amid all these things that cling to her. 358 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: I think she's handled it remarkably well. And you know, 359 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 2: she has a great team surrounding her, who I think 360 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: probably I'm assuming that probably helps kind of insulate from 361 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 2: some of it. But we know from everything that she's 362 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: said and her documentary like that her deciding to for 363 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: the first time be publicly political was not a decision 364 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 2: taken lightly, and it was certainly something that a lot 365 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: of people around her thought she shouldn't do. And early 366 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: in her career there were a lot of questions swirling 367 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 2: around her. You know, this white blonde woman who comes 368 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 2: from the country world. Is she conservative? Is she getting 369 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: all of these liberal fans to come and support her? 370 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: And she actually is opposed to the human rights that 371 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: feel core to a lot of her fan base. And 372 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 2: she answered the question with this statement, and you know, 373 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: with her subsequent endorsement of Biden in twenty twenty. And 374 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: I think that, yeah, as you said, she has a 375 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: huge platform, and she has been able to maintain and 376 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: grow her celebrity in the wake of being open about 377 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 2: her political stances. And I think that that is probably 378 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: also what makes segments of the right very scared of her. 379 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 2: She has not crumbled, right, She has not received the 380 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: backlash that has affected her bottom line in the way that, 381 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 2: for example, the Dixie Chicks did. 382 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: That is completely true, and I think we're going to 383 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: get it in the back end of the show. We'll 384 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: get into the kind of financial power and independence she's 385 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: established for herself that other artists haven't enjoyed when they've 386 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: spoken out. When you mentioned before about she's also scaring 387 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: the right. One of my favorite recent examples of the 388 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: kind of imaginative and conspiratorial lengths her critics will go 389 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: to to sort of build up. Pair noy about her 390 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: was when when Jesse Waters, another Fox bro, recently speculated 391 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: that she's a government plant waging a form of psychological 392 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: warfare and that her Era's concert tour. I'm sorry, it's 393 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: so hard for me to even just state this without laughing, 394 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: because it's sort of fun and funny, but it's like, 395 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: don't people have better things to do? Anyway? He warned 396 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: that her Era's concert tour was a phenomenon because the 397 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: Defense Department was backing it. Have you found evid evidence 398 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: in your own reporting that the Defense Department is using 399 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: her as an embed to wage psychological warfare on the 400 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: American people? And if so, tell us now, Emma, I 401 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: have not. 402 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 2: It just truly cracks me up, this idea that that 403 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 2: would be the more likely explanation than just that like 404 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 2: a lot of women and girls are interested to see 405 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 2: an artist reflect their emotional experiences, Like couldn't be that 406 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: has to be like the Department of Defense. It's just 407 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: it's beyond wakado. And yet it is kind of chilling 408 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 2: that there are a lot of people who are so 409 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: invested in these ideas that they are willing to buy 410 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 2: into them and take them. Seriously. I keep thinking about 411 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk going on a rant about her in which 412 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: he said all the swifties want is a swift abortion. 413 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, yeah, Charlie Kirk. 414 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 2: Okay again there is just it's like these men and 415 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: some of these women cannot grasp a world in which 416 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: young people might just want to see their lived experiences 417 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: reflected back at them or want to participate in the 418 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 2: government of the country that they live in. Like that 419 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: is too hard to believe. So it has to be 420 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 2: a conspiracy. It can't just be that these ideas or 421 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: this person is genuinely popular. 422 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: And confident can destructive. Policy oriented political parties don't freak 423 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: out about talented and influential pop stars, but cults do, yes. 424 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: And I think one of the other collisions you're seeing 425 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: here is that I think the Republican Party, particularly the 426 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: MAGA wing, I think there's a lot of traditional conservatives 427 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: who are policy oriented, think the best for the country, 428 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: want to have public dialogues about the economy in the future. 429 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: But that's certainly not where the Maga wing of the 430 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: party rights. And they've actually gotten their strongest traction as 431 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: a cultural force, not a policy force, but to appeal 432 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: to people's emotions, to their fears, to a variety of 433 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: other desires, which, of course artists always explore. You know, 434 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: every great artist is exploring people's emotional landscape and their needs. 435 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: And so that's another reason why at this particular point 436 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: in time, I think an influential pop star is threatening 437 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: to a party that has tethered its future to culture, 438 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: war and emotion. 439 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 2: That's such a good point. Yeah, Maga really just goes 440 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 2: on vibes. They're worried. They're worried about the vibe shift 441 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: not in their favor. 442 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, bad political vibes. On that note, I'm going to 443 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: take another quick break to hear from a sponsor, and 444 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: then we'll come back and we will stop talking about emotion, 445 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: stop talking about conspiracies, and we will talk about the money. 446 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: I'm back in having a great conversation with the great 447 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: Emma Gray about the great Taylor Swift. Everyone's great, everyone's great. Today, 448 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: I want to point out two things about Taylor Swift's 449 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: Eras tour last year. First, I became a hero in 450 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: my household by getting two tickets for my wife. And second, 451 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift became a billionaire through the Era's tour. By 452 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: the way, my pal and partner in crime here Anamazerakus, 453 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: has been to three Taylor Swift concerts. What is Taylor 454 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: Me to you, Anna? 455 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I think that she's incredibly talented, but I 456 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 3: also think, as Emma has brought up in this conversation, 457 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 3: she is a strong independent woman who has built an 458 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 3: incredibly strong business and that's threatening to a lot of people. 459 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 3: And it's kind of interesting to watch how she has 460 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 3: handled that and gone through the roller coaster of it 461 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 3: from you know, really wanting people's approval to then also 462 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 3: having like a song called shake It Off where she's like, whatever, 463 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 3: I'm just going to live my life now. She keeps 464 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: going through that. 465 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: It's interesting, it's interesting, and it's a learning experience. And 466 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that's interesting about what's 467 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: given her traction and sort of fortitude amidst all this 468 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: is that she's a great business woman. That's just a 469 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: really practical day in and day out level. There are 470 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: so many highlights to talk about, you know. She just 471 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: took her fourth award for Album of the Year at 472 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: the Grammy. She's the first artist to ever do that. 473 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: She's the highest grossing female touring act, the most streamed 474 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: woman on Spotify and Apple Music, the first person to 475 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: become a billionaire with a fortune primarily derived from music, 476 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: and she's sold two hundred million records, and on and 477 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: on and on. What do you make of her as 478 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: a business force in that context? 479 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: Nowah, I mean, I'm impressed. It's very impressive to be 480 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: a creative who is able to build that like that 481 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: is just using a whole different brain. And you have 482 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 2: to be very savvy in order to build a brand 483 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: that sustains that long that you are tapping and growing 484 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 2: into this audience who you are so endeared to that 485 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: they will shell out a lot of money to see 486 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 2: The Era's Tour. I have friends who have seen like 487 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: three different stops on The Era's tour because it is 488 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: just a thrill every single time. And so she is 489 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 2: both a savvy businesswoman and also creating a product that 490 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: people want to come back for, which I think is 491 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: key to having a sustainable business when it comes to 492 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: music or any creative work. 493 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to quote Billboard Magazine here Taylor Swift's 494 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: quote seismic impact on the music industry over the past 495 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: seventeen years since her debut isn't limited to her unparalleled 496 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: commercial success, but also encompasses her influence on everything from artists' 497 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: rights to smashing the traditional album release model to changing 498 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: the conversation about songwrights and ownership. You know. Famously, she 499 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: pulled her catalog from Spotify for three years twenty fourteen 500 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: to twenty seventeen in order to get a fair financial 501 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: deal from that platform. She fought Apple for better royalty payments. 502 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: But this always seemed like the boss moved to me. 503 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: After her master recordings for her first six albums and 504 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: her former label were sold to another company in twenty nineteen, 505 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: she re recorded the songs that were part of the 506 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: sale so she could regain ownership of her own masters. 507 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: And I just thought, as well, like that was it's 508 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: so in charge and business savvy, and I thought it 509 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: was really impressive. 510 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: It's so impressive. The tailor's version universe of albums is incredible. 511 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: It's also allowed her to revisit material and introduce newer 512 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 2: fans to that back catalog to bring I think more 513 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: of her adult sensibility into that music. And yeah, I 514 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: think she is showcasing a model for artists and creatives 515 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 2: that says you deserve to own your work, you do 516 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: not have to be a slave to these traditional gatekeepers. 517 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: And I think that it puts this question into the ether, 518 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: which is, maybe these systems are broken and maybe we 519 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: should all be revisiting them. And she has the financial 520 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: and cultural power to make a move as an individual 521 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 2: and change a whole system, which virtually no one else, 522 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 2: very few other people have that power. 523 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: And it doesn't stop there. She leverages very shrewdly her 524 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: own image and brand on social media, around album drops, 525 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: around who she is, what her life entails, and then 526 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: she has a whole merch line attached to all this clothing, 527 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: phone cases, jewelry, et cetera, et cetera. I guess I 528 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: know the answer is, but does it surprise you that 529 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: she's also able to excel in all of these different facets? 530 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: And what do you think explains it? 531 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I don't exactly know what explains it, but 532 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: I am not surprised, just in the sense that she's 533 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 2: been in this business for a long time. She has 534 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: stayed quite true to herself and her own evolution, and 535 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 2: I think she has been an eager learner throughout all 536 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: of it, and obviously we can't pretend that it's just 537 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: her like she has found collaborators who understand her and 538 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: want to work with her to build out this brand. 539 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: I am like less familiar admittedly with some of her 540 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 2: business practices, but as an observer and admirer of her, 541 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: I find it all to be pretty impressive. And also 542 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 2: I wonder how shocked we would be by it if 543 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: she wasn't an artist, like in a pretty woman's. 544 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: Body, right, you know. I also think that just artists 545 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: historically have not been good negotiators for their own financial wellbeing. 546 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, a totally different skill set. So it 547 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 2: is very impressive in that sense. 548 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: And then she uses it all responsibly and isn't going 549 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: crazy and is hanging in there. Let me ask you 550 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: one last question, you know, and watching the arc of 551 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: Taylor's journey, and maybe specifically over the last several months, 552 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: with the conspiracy theories floating around her, what have you 553 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: learned about what she represents in the world that you 554 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: didn't know before this most recent installment of Taylor Mania. 555 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: That's a great question. I think I learned that a 556 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 2: lot of people that I assumed and wouldn't be paying 557 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 2: attention to Taylor Swift really are like. That is what 558 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: the MAGA backlash to an extent has taught me. That 559 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 2: she lives rent free in a lot of people's heads, 560 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 2: and a woman who is operating in all of these 561 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 2: different realms and has what seems to be total control 562 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 2: and a grasp on her own platform and power is 563 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 2: very scary to a lot of people. And that's certainly 564 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: not to lift Taylor up as some perfect figure who 565 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 2: is not deserving ever of criticism. I don't think that 566 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 2: that's true, but I do think that for certain segments 567 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: of the culture, a lot of derangement is projected onto her, 568 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 2: and she is kind of treated as this blank space 569 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: where maga fantasies and dreams and fears can be played 570 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 2: out upon TDS. 571 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 1: Taylor Derangement syndrome coin new We've got a new term here. 572 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: We've run out of time. Emma, I really appreciate you 573 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: coming on today. 574 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure. 575 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: Emma Gray is the co host of a podcast that 576 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: recaps dating reality shows, Love to See It, co writes 577 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: a culture substact called rich Text, and is the author 578 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: of A Girl's Guide to joining the Resistance. She's also 579 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: a columnist with MSNBC and you can find her on 580 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: Twitter at Emma Lady Rose. Here at Crash Course, we 581 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: believed the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and 582 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: always instructive. But all good things must come to an end, 583 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: so we're bringing down the curtain on Crash Course. This episode, 584 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: like all of our episodes, was produced by the indispensable 585 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: and wildly talented Anna Masarakus. She has been a stellar 586 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: collaborator and I will miss co creating this show with her. 587 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer has been Magnus Hendrickson, and we've had 588 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: editing help from Sagebauman, Jeff Grocot, Mike Nizza, and Christine 589 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: Vanden Bilar. Blake Maples has done all of our sound engineering, 590 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: and he's capable of doing superhero things with sound. Our original 591 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: theme song was composed by Luis Garra and I'm Tim O'Brien. 592 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: Thanks for hanging out with Crash Course.