1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: What's of you, guys. It's Kelly, and you are listening 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: to one of my favorite episodes that it's called The 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times, and it is with Spiritual 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: Greu Phil Goldberg. This is a conversation I had quite 5 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: a some time ago, and I still feel like it's 6 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: really relevant. This was back in when we were going 7 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: through the pandemic, and I knew that I myself needed 8 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: some guidance and how to stay calm with all of 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: the insanity going on around us, and I know in 10 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: my own life it was just feeling so out of control. 11 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: And Phil really gave me some practical day to day 12 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: tools that I could use and integrate into my own 13 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: life to just help me no matter what the circumstances were, 14 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: or what was going on in my life, or our 15 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: culture or our world in general, the pandemic, whatever it 16 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: may be. And I really do feel like they're still 17 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: applicable to today, and especially maybe during the holidays, something 18 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: we might all need. I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation. 19 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: Here's Phil. So I laughed when I was reading your 20 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: bio just about how you got into writing, how writing 21 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 1: helps you get through school. It said Throughout his chaotic 22 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: academic life, the one consistent element was phillips writing skill. 23 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: He got good grades despite lazy study habits because he 24 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: wrote so well that teachers thought he knew more than 25 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: he did. So before we talk about the latest book, 26 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: I want to give listeners a little background just of 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: how you landed on this path of being a writer, 28 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: and even more than that, just a spiritual writer. I 29 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: can't believe that exists somewhere. It's on your bio, Yes, 30 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: on your website. Well, it's true. I was. I was 31 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: a student in the sixties and much more interested in uh, 32 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: changing the world and ending the Vietnam War and figuring 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: out the meaning of life and how to live it 34 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: then I was with my school work. So I was. 35 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: I didn't apply myself that well in school, and and 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: I always I wondered what to do with my life. 37 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,839 Speaker 1: And I was interested in this, and then I get 38 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: interested in that, and I changed my major, and then 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: I go to graduate school and then go to a 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: different graduate school, and uh, I was just a curious 41 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: I was. I wanted to know things, and I get 42 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: this illusion and go on to something else. And it 43 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: never occurred to me that the one thing I did 44 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: consistently well and I always got good feedback on was 45 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: my writing. It never occurred to me that there was 46 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: a career choice until years later when I realized, you know, 47 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: I keep thinking maybe I should write something, and I 48 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 1: in retrospect, I realized that when I got good grades, 49 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: it was when I had to write a term paper 50 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: or an essay. And I think to this day that 51 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: my whatever natural ability I had to put words together 52 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: in a readable way, influenced the teachers, you know, because 53 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: I sounded like I knew what I was and I 54 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: probably they were probably classmates who knew a lot more 55 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: than I did and studied more than I did, but 56 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: didn't write as well. And so you know, that ultimately 57 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: led me to say, maybe I should see about writing professionally. 58 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: And things came together that way, and the spiritual part 59 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: of it, which is UM has become a major part 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: of what I write about. UM was, you know, the 61 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: result of my own searching for answers to the questions 62 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,119 Speaker 1: that were UH confusing me and plaguing me when I 63 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: was young, and led me to um um practices like 64 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: meditation and the study of especially Eastern spiritual traditions, and 65 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: so they in recent years came together more and I 66 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: so I write about these things more than most other subjects. Right, 67 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: And You've written multiple books about different spiritual topics. But 68 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: the latest book is called Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times. 69 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: I was telling you before we started that I've been 70 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: reading it this past weekend. And what was so interesting 71 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: is obviously when I say to you right now, oh, yeah, like, 72 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: of course we need spiritual Practices for crazy times. But 73 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: you wrote this book before the pandemic hit, before it 74 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: actually got super crazy. And and then you commented in 75 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: the book that, um, you didn't change anything, because in fact, 76 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: our world has consistently been crazier than maybe we give 77 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: credit to. Yeah. Um, I keep being the now that 78 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: the book is out. I keep being told what great 79 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: timing I had if I planned it this way. You know, 80 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: it takes a long time to write a book and 81 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: go through the editing process and the proof reading process 82 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: and the printing process and everything else. So I completed 83 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: the book sometime towards the end of last year and 84 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: conceived of it when things were crazy enough, and you know, 85 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: the spring of two fast and nineteen, and um, just 86 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: for my observations, it seemed to be a book that 87 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: was needed. And then when I UH, sometime in February 88 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,559 Speaker 1: or March, we did the final proof reading, and I thought, 89 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: and by then, you know, there were lockdowns, and I thought, 90 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: should I change it? Should I change the book in 91 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: any way? And I realized that everything in it applies UM. 92 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: And the only thing in retrospect that I would add 93 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: because of the pandemic is that UM the same practices 94 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: that I'm advocating and giving guidelines for in the book 95 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: for UH contacting what I call the sanctuary of peace 96 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: within us and the fortress of strength within us. These 97 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: practices are not only for self preservation but for effective 98 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: action in the world. And now I would add, they'll 99 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: also strengthen your immune system and UH and and give 100 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: you UH, you know, the strength in your body and 101 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: your your resistance UH not only to a potential virus 102 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: but to um UM the stress and anxiety that's so prevalent, 103 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: even more so now than when I wrote the book. 104 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: But it's also true that five years and ten years 105 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: from now, the same practices, the same ideas, will still 106 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: apply even if times are good. But because in anybody's 107 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: life things can get crazy at any moment when you 108 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: say that it would be helpful to the immune system, 109 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: can you explain that a little more? When you when 110 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: you say the thing about these practices being helpful to 111 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: your immune system, could you explain that a little more? Yes. Now, 112 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to pretend I'm a doctor or anything 113 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: like that, but um, one of the things that is 114 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: important for for listeners to keep in mind is, you know, 115 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: these I call them spiritual practices, and they are I 116 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: drew from the world's spiritual traditions, especially the repertoire of 117 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: practices that come from India, from the yoga tradition, because 118 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: they can be applied by anybody. It doesn't you don't 119 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: have to call yourself a spiritual person, and certainly not 120 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: a religious person. So these methods have been proven useful 121 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: in a secular and scientific manner as well, and so 122 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: many doctors and psychotherapists now recommend practices like yoga and 123 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: deep breathing and meditation and even prayer for people who 124 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: are inclined in that direction because scientific studies have shown 125 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: that they have a measurable physiological benefit. Uh. You know 126 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: this is this is research that's been going on for 127 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: nearly fifty years now. Uh, and has gotten more and 128 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: more sophisticated. So that's why you know, doctors say or 129 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: meditate a learned mindfulness for reducing stress. So the stress 130 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: reduction part of it, and of changes that occur biochemically, UM, 131 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: we can infer and scientists have that they would strengthen 132 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: the body's resistance to disease and um mental disturbances and 133 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: all the rest. Yeah, I don't. I don't think that 134 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: people talk enough about the effects of stress on the 135 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: body and in the amount that we just go, go, go, 136 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,119 Speaker 1: go go. It's been an interesting time in this pandemic 137 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: because we've sort of been forced to stop and sort 138 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: of look at some of those things. UM. I do 139 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: feel like as a society we want to quick fix typically, 140 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: So this book it's full of tips and like different 141 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: different things to put into spiritual practice. But is there 142 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: one thing that you would say, you know what this is? 143 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: This is what you do to find peace during a 144 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: crazy time. The centerpiece to me of developing a spiritual repertoire. 145 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 1: And if I had to say one thing, it's investigate 146 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: these methods that I'm recommending, and go beyond my book 147 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: and investigate other things you know that are available online 148 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: um and develop an inventory of practices that you can 149 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: draw on as needed, whether you have thirty seconds or 150 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: an hour or a day. These for restorative purposes, for 151 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: protection purposes, to find refuge in this time, there's a 152 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: variety of methods we can employ. I also say that 153 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: in that context, doing something consistently, having a spiritual practice 154 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: routine what in the East is called a sodden uh 155 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: to do every day, usually in the morning or twice 156 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: a day. If if you can as maintenance, as ongoing maintenance, 157 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: as a team, just as you brush your teeth, just 158 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: as you shower, just as you change the oil in 159 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: your car, to do something, because doing something some of 160 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: these practices on a regular basis strengthens the body's clarify, 161 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: clears up the mind, and brings out the inner piece 162 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: that you already have within you. If you get the 163 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: trash and garbage out of the way, and and in 164 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: that context, you know, if I have to say, do 165 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: one thing, it's learn a deep meditation practice and incorporated 166 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: into your life in the time you can allot to 167 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: it and think of it as an investment of time, 168 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: in investment in your own well being that will make 169 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: you whatever keeps you busy in life, your work, your job, 170 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: you're parenting, your so, your work, in the community, whatever 171 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: it is, you will do it better. You will have 172 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 1: a little more p a little more clarity of mind, 173 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: a little calmness. Uh. If you also incorporate into your 174 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: life these moments of going within, I call it a 175 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: spiritual two steps. You go within, you come out and 176 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: do your work more effectively. They're not escapes, they're not 177 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: ways of you know, turning off the world, except temporarily, 178 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: you tune out, You tune into your own inner piece, 179 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: and then you come out and you can engage the 180 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: world more effectively that way. And I think, you know, 181 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: all of us can benefit from that, but so can 182 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: the world. You know, the more people that do that. Well, 183 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: you mentioned this in the book, And honestly, this is 184 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: how I felt about meditation. Um. Probably. I mean, yeah, 185 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: I've only I've been meditating now about two years and 186 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: I am finally after two years finding a practice. Is 187 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: that seems to be working for me consistently? Um? But 188 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: I was one of those people who was just like, 189 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: you know what, I just I don't I can't meditate, 190 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: Like I'm not good at it. It is not. It 191 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: doesn't work for me. So what would you say to 192 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: people who are listening right now, thinking, here we go again, 193 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: Like everyone's just saying, meditate to find peace. You know, 194 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: what would you say to that? I'll say the same 195 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: thing I've been saying for fifty years, because I've been 196 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: hearing it that long. Um, there are meditation practices available 197 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: out there in the vast marketplace of mind body offerings 198 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: that are difficult to do. There are also practices that 199 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: are so easy to do they are deceptively effective and 200 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: powerful because they are easy. I go into this in 201 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: some detail in the early part of my book, but briefly, 202 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: the practices that are traditional and natural and taught by 203 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: a qualified person. I've been doing transcendental meditation since nine 204 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: I was trained as a teacher of it. That's an 205 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: example of an effortless, easy way to practice. And if 206 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: you examine the rationale for having a natural and easy 207 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: process as opposed to a difficult one that requires a 208 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: lot of mind control, you realize that you'll have more 209 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: rest and relaxation and calm with a practice that involves 210 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: no control, no strenuous focusing in concentration. There's a place 211 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: for the others, but they're best done I think under 212 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: careful supervision. So I would tell your listeners to look 213 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: for a qualified teacher or teaching that emphasizes ease and 214 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: naturalness as opposed to rigorous concentration. The problem arises when 215 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: people think they don't need instruction, that all you have 216 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: to do is quiet your mind. Well you can't. You 217 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: can just you can't just do that without a method, 218 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: and that's why instruction. So people sit down and say, okay, 219 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,239 Speaker 1: I'll try quieting my mind. They find out that it's difficult, 220 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: and they say, well, I'm not cut out for this. 221 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: But in my experience, if you get proper instruction, and 222 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: I have proper instruction in the book, only it's in 223 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: written form. So I've just as a for your listeners 224 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: to know, I've created an audio version of some of 225 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: the practices, and um I made that available free for 226 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: anybody who buys the book, and they can go on 227 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: my website and do that. But that's the main point. 228 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: Anybody can meditate, but you need proper instructions, just like 229 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: anybody can drive a car, but you need proper instruction. Yeah, 230 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: that was an interesting point you made in the book 231 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: because you said we just expect ourselves to know how 232 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: to do this. But it's like anything else in this 233 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: world where you that's why you suggest having a guide 234 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: or a teacher, because just like everything else, we have 235 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: to learn how to do it. And there are different 236 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: methods and different things work for different people, right exactly. 237 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: And you you made a good point. Everybody wants an 238 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: instant fixing. And unfortunately the media, especially magazines and newspaper 239 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: columnists and all that, um, they exacerbate the problem by saying, 240 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: here's how you meditate, and they give you like two 241 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: points and think you should go do it. And you know, 242 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: it's a more nuanced uh practice and so it requires 243 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: a little bit more instruction. What is that you don't 244 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: you don't tell somebody you go to, you turn the 245 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: key this way, you step on the gas and you dry. 246 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: You need to know what is transcendental meditation? What what 247 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: does that intel? Well, that's you know, by now, a 248 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: very familiar practice. UM. That involves the use of mantram 249 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: in meditation, and mantra being a traditional sound uh that 250 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 1: have certain effects inside and it's characterized by ease of 251 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: practice and naturalness, and um it's one of the forms 252 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: I advocate because if you get proper instruction, you can 253 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: just then do it on your own for the rest 254 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: of your life and get the get the benefits which 255 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: have been quite well researched. That's actually I didn't realize 256 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: that's what I'm doing, But I met with a yoga 257 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: energy meditation teacher and she did that for me, and 258 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: we have a mantra now and it's been interesting because um, 259 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: sort of like you said, I mean, you can't really 260 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: completely a quiet your mind, but it is interesting once 261 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: you become aware of that process what happens. And for me, 262 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: I don't think I realized the amount of stress that 263 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: I carry around all the time, or just like you know, 264 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: once I started doing this practice, my fuse is a 265 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: little bit longer. Maybe it would be a good way 266 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: to describe it, um, but you don't realize it until 267 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: it's gone. Like I didn't even realize how quick to 268 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: jump to anger or any sort of anxiety or fear 269 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: that I was until this practice actually started working in 270 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: my life very good. So you've had that experience of 271 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: more people don't Here's how I would say it, Um, 272 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 1: You in a good form of meditation, you don't quiet 273 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: your mind the mind becomes quieter by itself. Any if 274 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: you don't, you're not making an effort to make the 275 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: mind quiet. Will get get get these thoughts out of here, 276 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: get a go away, go away. No that that only 277 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: agitates you. But a good form of meditation will just 278 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: allow the mind to become a quieter and also relax 279 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: the body of the same card. Right, That's what I've 280 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: noticed for sure. One of the beginning chapters of the book, 281 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: you talk about equanimity, and I find I find this 282 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: to be you know, it would be a goal of mine, 283 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: and I think that the super evolved, peaceful people that 284 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: I know think about life in this capacity. But basically, 285 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: the way you describe it would be that you take 286 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: the good and the bad all all equally. Like you 287 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: just look at both all situations and you say, okay, 288 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: like that is what it is, and you go about 289 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: your day. So can we talk a little bit about that? Why? 290 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: First of all, how do you get there? Excuse me? Um? 291 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: Many many years ago, when I first started investigating these 292 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: spiritual traditions, I came across a passage in the buga 293 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: ud Gita where talked about yogis having equanimity in gain 294 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: and loss, victory and defeat, pleasure and pain, and I said, 295 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: that's what I want. The world is always going to 296 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: give you pain and difficulties and challenges, and you're going 297 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: to get upset. How can you maintain equanimity? And its 298 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: disappointed me that, you know, I didn't instantly have that 299 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: where stuff happened in the world, you know, but I 300 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: realized over time, by doing these practices on a regular basis, 301 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: I had more of it. I was more likely to 302 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: go through a difficult experience and maintain some inner quiet 303 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: and inner piece, or if I lost it entirely, it 304 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: would come back a little bit more quickly. My equanimity 305 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: would come back a little more quickly than it did before. 306 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: And that's It's an ongoing process. Um, it's a gradual process, 307 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: an ongoing one. And in the moment you can do 308 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: something about it by remembering that you do have a 309 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: sanctuary of peace within yourself that you have been cultivating. 310 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: If you've been doing spiritual practices over time, you you've 311 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: been cultivating access to the at inner peace. And you 312 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: lose it at times when stuff happens, but you remember, 313 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: if you remember, when you remember, oh I can I 314 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: can come back to that. And then there are methods, 315 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: methods to do in the moment when there's a old 316 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: chapter on it that that I call um when the 317 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: blitz at the immediate interventions to do, or you could 318 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: just say, you know what, I'm really upset. I know 319 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: I have this piece within me. I gotta retain my 320 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: regain my balance. I have to re ground myself. I 321 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: have to get my my soul back in shape. And 322 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: so you take a break and you say, you know, 323 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: let me do some breathing exercises, let me go walk 324 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: in the park seeing nature that will restore me. Let 325 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: me listen to music even three minutes, whatever it is. 326 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: That's why I advocate having an inventory at your disposal, 327 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: so when stuff happens, you can choose the suitable one 328 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: or the one that fits your circumstances at that moment. 329 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: But the regular spiritual practice, like the one you've embarked on, 330 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: we'll just increase your odds of maintaining equanimity when stuff happens. 331 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: I mean, look, I've been doing these things for fifties 332 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: years now. Not to give away my age, but um, 333 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: you know, like many people in my nineties sixties generation, 334 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: I took practice this up and I put them into 335 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: my life. But even today, you know, I'll go watch 336 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: the news and you know, I'll just want to scream, 337 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: but I'll regain that equanimity. And I know also that 338 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: by continuing with these practices, I just increase my odds 339 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: of staying saying, staying healthy, staying piece full despite what's 340 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: going on. Not that I ignore it, not that I 341 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: don't pay attention, but that I can do that from 342 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: a calm place. And I can do and by being 343 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: more calm, by being having more presence of mind, I 344 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: can take proper action instead of you know, you know 345 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: how if you get upset and angry, you make bad choices, 346 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: and yeah, we all do. But if you if you 347 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: just delay that reaction long enough to restore some balance 348 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: and some inner peace and then take the action, you 349 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: won't exacerbate things. You'll say the right thing, you won't 350 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: do something you later regret. Um. So that it's not 351 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: only healthy to maintain equanimity, um, it's more effective. You know. 352 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: You see, even parents who you know love their children, 353 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: but the kid d upsets them and they lash out 354 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: and then they regret it. Well, you know, if you 355 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: have a habit of being able to respond to crises 356 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: and still maintain some calm or historic fairly quickly. Then 357 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: you're less likely to do that. I mean, I always 358 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: think of athletes in that way. You know, they are 359 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: always athletes. We call them clutch performers, you know, when 360 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: things are really tense, when things are in a crisis, 361 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: those are the people you give the ball to. And 362 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: we want it to be good to be the person, 363 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: you know, who can do the right thing at the 364 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: at the right moment. I like that you pointed out 365 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: that life is just always going to throw us different things, 366 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: because I think when us are started what I would 367 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: call my spiritual journey, I just I was like, Okay, 368 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: I'm facing life with this um new mentality, this new mindset, 369 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: and somewhere inside of me, I wasn't really fully aware 370 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: of this until it came up later, but I just 371 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: thought life was going to get easy, and so, you know, 372 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: so whenever, yeah, whenever hardships happened, I felt myself. I 373 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: was so resentful almost and just angry and frustrated. And 374 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: what I'm realizing as I get older is that these tools, 375 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: these practices, these things we put into place in our 376 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: lives on a daily are just that. Therefore, the days 377 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: that are so hard, they're the ways we get back 378 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: to our mental calm. Um, it's not necessarily like that 379 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: life is just going to get so easy because you 380 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: learned these new tools. Did you experience that as well? Yes, 381 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: you are exactly right. I mentioned in the book that 382 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 1: that passage about having lost in my brain somewhere I 383 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: read that as it won't be lost, there won't be defeat, 384 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: there won't be pain. No, sorry, the world is what 385 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: it is, and um, people are going to get sick 386 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: and loved ones are going to die, and the relationships 387 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: are going to break up, and you know you'll you'll 388 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: have success and you'll have failure, and you know that's 389 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: just the way it is. You may increase your chances 390 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: of things going well. I think people on a spiritual 391 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: path noticed that. But it doesn't mean bad stuff not 392 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: going to happen. Of course it is, and that's just 393 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: it's just a spiritually mature place to recognize that that's 394 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: the case. But then how do we react to it? 395 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: Do we then? How do we respond? What resources inner 396 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: resources do we bring to the situation? Right exactly? And 397 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: that kind of brings me to this the next point 398 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,959 Speaker 1: that I found so fascinating. Um, and just in the 399 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: power of our minds and even the power of perception. Um. 400 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: Like I said, that wasn't something that I was even 401 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: aware that I thought, and until something bad happened, and 402 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: then I was like, wait, what how is this you 403 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: know happening in my life? But what I've now I'm 404 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: aware of is like every day the messages that happened 405 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: in my mind too. And UM, how I kind of 406 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: want you to just talk about that, because you have 407 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: a whole chapter in this book about how powerful the 408 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: messages in our minds are, Like how we could look 409 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: at the same situation on a different day and our 410 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: reaction could be completely different because of how we're perceiving it. 411 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that? Yes? Well, 412 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: And there's two things to be said about that. One is, um, 413 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: let's take that example I just give of a parent 414 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: the kid has a temper tantrum or whatever, and the 415 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: parent just gets angry and resentful and whatever. On a 416 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: different day, if the parent we're in a better mood, 417 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: or you know, had slept well the night before, or 418 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, did spiritual practices or whatever, the same temperate 419 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: tentrum would have may have brought out love and compassion 420 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: instead of anger. Same kid, same activity, same situation, but 421 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: the response is different because the parents condition of mind 422 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: and body was different at that moment that it was 423 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: a different day. So that's part of it. Cultivating the 424 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: benefits of spiritual practices that we've talked about makes it 425 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: more likely that you'll respond in an appropriate way than 426 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: in a destructive way. You'll see it different, You'll see 427 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: it differently instead of somebody being uh uh, somebody you 428 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: you blame or you feel angry towards you may have 429 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: more compassion and understanding, But the other pieces to shift 430 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: perception in the moment, so you find yourself polluting your 431 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: own system with thoughts of anger and resentment, uh uh, disappointment, anxiety. 432 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: You can shift if you have the awareness to see 433 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: the same situation slightly differently. I compare it to one 434 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: piece of that to taking the elevator up, so you 435 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: you have a bigger perspective. You see the same situation 436 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: going on, but now you see more, you see different connections, 437 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: You see a different span of time, um, and they're 438 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: or your understanding of the situation might be better. And 439 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: we can also just shift the attention so that we 440 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: somebody upsets us. We hate somebody, We turn on the television, 441 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: we see the politician we hate, and we get angry 442 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: and we get upset. The opposite of that isn't oh 443 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: I love that person, because that's artificial, not real. You 444 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: can't just pretend to love somebody you really hate or resent. 445 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: You can't love somebody you think is doing harmful things. 446 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: But you can shift it to say instead of I'm 447 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: angry too, there's a lot of anger coming up in me. 448 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: What can I do with that? How can I direct that? 449 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: Or I'm really instead of oh, I'm anxious and worried. 450 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: It's there's a lot of anxiety and fear coming up 451 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: in this situation? What can I do to change it? 452 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: And that's a shift, that's a shift of mindset that 453 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: makes you less of a victim, and it's a channel. 454 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: It can be easily channeled into something you know that 455 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: can make a difference in your life instead of just 456 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: welling in it and letting the negative energy spread its 457 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: toxins throughout your system. It reminds me I have a 458 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: friend who says, stay curious, like in all situations, just 459 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: stay curious because we don't really know, you know, why 460 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: people are doing what they're doing or whatever, or even 461 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: if it's about your own response to a person, like 462 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: you're saying, like I feel anxious, I feel mad, Just 463 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: stay curious about that? What is that? What's behind that? 464 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: For you? But I have a hard time balancing processing 465 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: through my emotions to get those out of my body 466 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: and then this thing that you're talking about, the staying 467 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: curious piece of that. Do you have any recommendations for 468 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: balancing those two? Yeah, I don't see any reason you 469 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: can't do both. And um, if I were still writing 470 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: my book, i'd steal your friends suggestion. I I My 471 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: version of that was to create to turn everything into 472 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: a learning experience. Yeah, and that's you know, staying curious 473 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: as a way of doing that. What what what is 474 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: there to learn about myself, about the world, about the 475 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: other person in this situation? And by making it a 476 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,959 Speaker 1: learning experience, making it part of your curriculum, you shift 477 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: the mental energy and it also probably inches the brain 478 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: chemistry so that it's less toxic. And what you said, 479 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: getting rid of the emotions. Yes, sometimes we're so riled 480 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: up and there's so much going on you know emotionally 481 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: that we need to do something physical. So you know, 482 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: maybe if for some people just getting on the floor 483 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: and doing a series of yoga practices would do, maybe 484 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: you need something more vigorous, so you you know, if 485 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: you're a runner, you go run. If you're a walker, 486 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: you take a brisk walk in in some peaceful place. Um, 487 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: if you're a you know, athletes, you go play some 488 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: ball or whatever it is. And if you're really upset 489 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: and crazy, go someplace quiet where no one will hear 490 00:34:53,160 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 1: you and beat up a pillow at spell it. Get it. Yeah, 491 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: scream and holler if you have to, but you know, 492 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: get it out, and that you'll have that catharsis. You'll 493 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: have that, you know sort of You'll you'll purge the 494 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: system of some of that energy and then you'll be 495 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: able to more properly evaluated and take the next step. Yeah. 496 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: I like that because a lot of times for me, 497 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: until I beat the pillow, I can't get curious about 498 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: why I'm so mad about something. You know, it just 499 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: my brain can't go there quite yet, because the way 500 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: that my head works is I'll just case build. It's 501 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: just constantly. Well, then there's this and that, and that 502 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: and that, and it doesn't do me. I'm not curious 503 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: at all about what I have to learn about the 504 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 1: situation because your mind, your mind is clouded toxic emotion exactly, 505 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: and getting rid of it. And so you know, I 506 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: had to acknowledge that in the book. People think, oh, 507 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: spiritual practice, it's all about just meditation and mind fulness 508 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: and prayer and being calm. Well, you know, sometimes shouting 509 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: from the rooftops is a spiritual practice, and you know 510 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: there's precedent for that and all the spiritual traditions. You know, 511 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: if your listeners are familiar with the Bible, there's plenty 512 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: of you know profits raging, you know, raging at the world, 513 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: raging at God, ranging at the King's you know, and 514 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: that's not an unspiritual place to be, you know, sometimes 515 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, you there's something to be said for you know, 516 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: letting it out. Uh. And it's not necessarily you know, 517 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: non spiritual. When I think spiritual, I think of peaceful 518 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: and just the meditation types that they were talking about. 519 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: But I like that that any sort of that can 520 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 1: be a spiritual practice as well. Um, if you if 521 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: you hold it in that then and there's also you 522 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: know the spirituality of uh seeking justice and speaking out. 523 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: I mean Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. 524 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: These were you know, deeply spiritual people, but they took 525 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: a stand and they you know, I want to talk 526 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: about just the importance of relationships our spiritual practice because 527 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: I don't think that I thought about that until until 528 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: I read your book, And um, it is interesting because 529 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: spirituality is such an individual thing and you you actually 530 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: say on the spiritual path, we are alone and we 531 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: can't do it alone, which I found to be super 532 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: That just hit me so hard because when I think 533 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: about my growth spiritually, I mean it's obviously a very 534 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: individual thing and ultimately it's between you and whatever your 535 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: higher power or universe or whatever God you want to 536 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: call it. But I have grown the most spiritually with 537 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: others or in relationship. So can you speak a little 538 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: bit to that. Yeah, and you nailed the paradox or 539 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: when you quoted me on that, because you know, spirituality 540 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: is a deeply individual thing, and you know we're all 541 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: on our own paths, every path, everybody's path is different, 542 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: and we all have our own curriculum. As I say, 543 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, spiritual, spiritual practice. The spiritual path is independent study, 544 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: so you you have your own curriculum. But at the 545 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: same time, we need teachers, We need people who know 546 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: things we don't. We need spiritual companions, people to share 547 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 1: these things with, people to learn from, people to help, 548 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: because we learn when we also share and help others, 549 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: and we might in many cases need spiritual community. Whether 550 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: you know you're part of a congregation or you're just 551 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: people you you hang out with at the meditation center 552 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: or the Ogus studio or whatever it is, some form 553 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: of community is very helpful on the path. Um. These 554 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:33,959 Speaker 1: are all part of it, plus relationships, intimate relationships, family relationships, friendships, UH, community, 555 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: the neighbors. All of these things UH put our spirituality 556 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: to the test. They call upon us to be kind, 557 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: to be compassionate, to be understanding, to be generous, and 558 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: those are spiritual acts in themselves and their barometers of 559 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: our own progres us. Plus the love and compassion we 560 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: receive helps us spiritually because we exist. We're not living 561 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: in caves. We exist in you know, within relationship and 562 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: for many many people, the presence of the divine, however 563 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: you choose to see it, is often brought out in 564 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: the most immediate ways in these loving relationships. There's nothing 565 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: more devotional than the love of a parent to care 566 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: for a child. There's nothing more selfless than the acts 567 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: of generosity and care and concern we give to our 568 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: loved ones. And so that's why I have a practice 569 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: the whole chapter on relationship, and I also bring out 570 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: the pitfalls of being in the spiritual community, of having 571 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: spiritual teachers and who to trust, and you know, uh, 572 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: spiritual communities can be perilous in many ways because they 573 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, things are expected of you, or you may 574 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: have to uh put up with people you don't necessarily 575 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: approve of, or you may be disillusioned. There's many many pitfalls, 576 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: but they're worth uh contemplating and being aware of and 577 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: being part of. And one of the things I talk 578 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: about is forming your own you know, spiritual support group 579 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: to talk about your practices and your experiences. Maybe you 580 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: know read books together that feed your in your knowledge 581 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: base and your souls. Um. So yeah, you know, being 582 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: in community, being in relationship is in many ways the 583 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: spiritual practice of its own well. And that kind of 584 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: goes back to finding what works for you as well, 585 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: because I think for every different person, and you know, 586 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: the group that you find or the relationships that work 587 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: for you spiritually are different. So it's not like you 588 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: can map out what that would look like for any 589 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: one person. No, there's no one size fits all in 590 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: any of this stuff that I write about. It's It's 591 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: one thing I've learned very clearly over the years is 592 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: everybody's path is different, and the you know, practices that 593 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: work for one person might be you know, peripheral or 594 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 1: not effective for somebody else. And you know, everybody's relationship 595 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:53,959 Speaker 1: to their spiritual companions, to religious and spiritual institutions, they're 596 00:42:53,960 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: all different. And self awareness, self inquiry and being true 597 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: to yourself is terribly important in all of this. Yes, 598 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,320 Speaker 1: I agree. The book is called Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times. 599 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: It's out now. Um, Phil Where else can people find you? 600 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 1: I know you have the spirit Matters podcast as well? Right, Yes, 601 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: I have a podcast, the free podcast that I co 602 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: host called spirit Matters. UM. You can find it online 603 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,360 Speaker 1: or subscribe. Go to spirit matters talk dot com or 604 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: subscribe to it. There's a archive of a couple of 605 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: hundred great interviews with spiritual teachers. UM. And my website 606 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: is Philip Goldberg dot com that has a you know, 607 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff that I try to keep current, interviews, 608 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: interviews and links and courses, you know, stuff about my 609 00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: books and upcoming nowadays. I was, I was, that's say 610 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:06,919 Speaker 1: lectures and workshop there. They're all online nowadays. Um so yeah, 611 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: those are the ways, And if anybody wants to connect 612 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: with me, they can do it through the website. And 613 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,839 Speaker 1: if they want, you know, if they buy the new 614 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: book and I want that recorded meditation, there's instructions on 615 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,439 Speaker 1: the site. Wonderful. I mean, obviously these are crazy times 616 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: right now, so I do highly recommend the book if 617 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: you're feeling just a little um like you need a 618 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: little extra boost. I feel like you give a lot 619 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,760 Speaker 1: of good tips and different ideas. It's not just about meditation. 620 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 1: That's one piece of it that we talked about, but 621 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: there's a lot of other really great tips and just 622 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: different mentalities that I think would be really helpful now. 623 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: But also, like you said in the book, I mean, 624 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 1: these practices they really can last a lifetime and they're 625 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 1: not specific to just what's happening right now in this 626 00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: crazy time. Thank you. You're absolutely right. You know, if 627 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 1: I were writing a book called Spiritual Practice for Good Times. 628 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,920 Speaker 1: It would it would include a lot of the same 629 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: thing exactly. Well, I really appreciate you being here and 630 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 1: having this conversation with me. You guys, go out and 631 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: get the book Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times. I'm gonna 632 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 1: put the link in the bio to this podcast. UM 633 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,959 Speaker 1: I highly recommend it, and again, thank you for being here, 634 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 1: and thank you guys for listening. Thank you Kelly