1 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: The destination is on your right. Hi, joy aunt. It's humid. 2 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: It's very humid. Violence, suffering, and death are never more 3 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: sobering than when juxtaposed with an exceptional human being, so 4 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: much life left to live. Nice to me, Let me 5 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: give you a hug. I'm a little that's okay, that's okay. 6 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: As with many unsolved Thomas sides, there is a face 7 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: attached to this case. It's one you're likely familiar with, 8 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: the dispensable girl next door, smiling, laughing, making those around 9 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: her feel loved, full of joy and light one day 10 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: and the next nothing more than a mention on the 11 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: nightly news or a faded memory, a piece of paper 12 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: handed out to strangers and posted in grocery store windows. 13 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: You need Yeah, I'm also the voice in on sold 14 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: case as well. That is a different story. Victims can 15 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: no longer speak for themselves, which leaves it up to 16 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: others to speak for them. My name is m William Phelps. 17 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist and author of more than forty 18 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: true crime books. This is season three of Paper Ghosts 19 00:01:47,240 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: in Plain Sight. Thank you. So you live on a 20 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: golf course? Do you play golf? Joanne Ziwiki is an outspoken, 21 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: kind hearted woman. Petite with white hair, she could be 22 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: anyone's grandmother. Quite the conversationalist, Joanne never runs out of 23 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: things to discuss, especially when it concerns her only daughter, 24 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: Tammy Joe's Wicki, whose murder thirty years ago still remains unsolved. 25 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: Let me just go get my case. It's the reason 26 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: why I paid Joanna visit over the summer. Uh No, 27 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: I think I got it. We spent countless hours talking 28 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: on the phone. But this would be our first time 29 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: meeting face to face, barely nine o'clock and it's not 30 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: ninety degrees already nine. We now get this. This is unusual. 31 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: Joanne has lived in a modest, single family home in 32 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: central Florida for the better part of twenty three years, 33 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: seven of which have been spent alone after her husband 34 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: Hank passed away in two thousand fifteen. She keeps busy, 35 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: often talking to neighbors, helping them with everyday chores, or 36 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: watching the golfers play on the course outside her window. 37 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: Inside family photos dot the walls, some of Joanne with 38 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: her late husband, others of her many grandchildren, and a 39 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: handful of her daughter Tammy. You see the pictures up there. 40 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: I do. I do see the pictures that was at 41 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: the beach, that was our that was all of us 42 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: at the beach, And there's a picture with Tammy and me. 43 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: Nearly every photo of Tammy's a wiki shows her smiling 44 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: ear to ear, her golden blonde hair always with bangs, 45 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: often fluctuated in length, her green eyes always protected by 46 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: a pair of round, amber wire framed glasses. There's a sentimental, 47 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: yet umbertone and Joanne's voice whenever she talks about Tammy. 48 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: You can hear the pain is still very real and 49 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: very much present. I had people saying to me, why 50 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: do you keep her picture around? Why don't I keep 51 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: the picture around? Yeah? Why wouldn't you want to not 52 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: remember her? People or I don't know, they don't think 53 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: in those terms. I try not to focus on things 54 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: too too strongly. I try to just live through day 55 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: to day, look for the good things in life, and 56 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: forget about the other things. What got you interested in 57 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: all this? Well, my brother's wife was murdered um and 58 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: she was five months pregnant. She was strangled to death. 59 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: It's an unsolved case that was would have to be terrible. 60 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: What's driven me is helping families find answers and telling 61 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: family stories. You know, with every murder there's a ripple effect, 62 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: and that ripple effect still keeps going to this day. 63 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: I can see it on your face. I I it's there. 64 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: I was first introduced to Joanne by a man named 65 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: Robert cut Leric. He's one of the administrators of the 66 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: Who Killed Tammy's a Wicked Facebook group. In two thousand seventeen, 67 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: a member of the group, familiar with my work on 68 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: cold cases, reached out to ask if I would look 69 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: into what happened to Tammy. In any given month, I 70 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: received dozens of messages from people across the country looking 71 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: for help and a loved one's missing or murder case. 72 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: There's an endless number of reasons why certain cases appeal 73 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: to different people. For me, it's the possibility of developing 74 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: new information, the opportunity to help a family when no 75 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: one else will. And even though it's been thirty years, 76 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: Tammy's case seems solvable to me. I wouldn't even be 77 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: here talking to you now though it wasn't for rong. 78 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: Robert cut Laric has been helpful and as someone who 79 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: has become a source of support for Joanne over the years. 80 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: He has an encyclopedic knowledge of the case and actually 81 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: grew up one town over from where the Ziwiki has 82 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: lived in New Jersey, but says he didn't get interested 83 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: until years later. It was just bored with what I 84 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: was doing, and it popped into my head. So I 85 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: went to this relatively new fangled thing called the Internet. 86 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: The reason why I was looking it up was because 87 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to see if it had been solved, and 88 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: it hadn't. He just called me and he said, you know, 89 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: he was interested in finding out more information. I mean, 90 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: he didn't know Tammy. He was grutinized by the place 91 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: and a lot of other people because he didn't know Tammy, 92 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: and yet he got involved in it, you know, with 93 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: the whole thing. Did you think it was weird at 94 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: the beginning when he called, Yeah, I did. I mean 95 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: I was very careful to begin with. What did you 96 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: think of him when you met him? He was easy 97 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: to talk to, and he knew a lot. He had 98 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: been following the case, and I was careful, you know, 99 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: I was. I was wondering, you know, you just you 100 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: don't say, Okay, this guy is really somebody I want 101 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: to really get involved with I was. I was cautious. 102 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: What was his interest in the case, Just a young girl. 103 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: Mates had seen the pictures of the paper and things 104 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: like that, and he thought it was so terrible that 105 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: it happened. And at first I don't know what he 106 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: wanted to do. He was about the same age as 107 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: she was, and it really just hit him part and 108 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: he was just interested in the story. And then it 109 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,239 Speaker 1: just got to revolved from there. An archaeologist by trade, 110 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: it's in Robert's nature to dig and patiently uncover information. 111 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: I started collecting every scrap up newspaper article there wasn't 112 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: the case and trying to get a picture of what happened. 113 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: He's not alone. Thousands of people, including many who never 114 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: met Tammy, have tried for years to understand what happened 115 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: to her. As for me, my approaches to not follow 116 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: that lead to truly serve an unsolved murder case in 117 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: an investigative fashion, not to mention honor the victim respectfully. 118 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: Within that process, I need to think beyond the box. 119 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: What I mean is, if I were to go down 120 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: the same rabbit holes everyone else has explored for the 121 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: past thirty years, I would be doing nothing more than 122 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: spending my wheels rehashing old information. What I need to 123 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: consider is within all that law enforcement has done, and 124 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: within all the theories presented, there is undoubtedly a different 125 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: direction to explore in finding the answer to this mystery. 126 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: In my experience talking to detectives from around the country, 127 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: murder is not that complicated a riddle to solve. The 128 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: simplest answer often is the answer her. The key is 129 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: knowing where to look for it. It was nearing the 130 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: end of summer and twenty one year old Tammy Joe 131 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: Zwicki was getting ready to start her final year at 132 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: Grinnell College, a private liberal arts school in Iowa. She 133 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: was double majoring in art history in Spanish and spent 134 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: most of her free time doing the things she loved most, 135 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: taking pictures. Tammy spent the summer at her family's house 136 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: in Marlton, New Jersey, a relatively quiet suburb just half 137 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: an hour east of Philly. Her oldest brother, Todd, was 138 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: working at a law from in Atlanta, but her two 139 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: other brothers, Darren and Dean, were back home with her. 140 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: She was fresh off as semester abroad in Spain and 141 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: spent those few months back in the States, working part 142 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: time at local stores, taking photos and hanging out with friends. Well, 143 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: it was just a busy time, Tammy. She was at 144 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: home and she was an organizer and says she organized everything, 145 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: and she fixed her room the way she wanted to be. 146 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: When she came back, come again, don't anybody change it around. 147 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: That's my room, stay out. It was what she told 148 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: a boys. And she had visited a lot of her 149 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: friends and just really enjoyed her time there. She had 150 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: one more year left that she was heading right into 151 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: her senior year. Jen Nelson was Tammy's closest friend. They 152 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: first met at Grinnell College three years earlier, when Jen 153 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: was a student adviser assigned to help Tammy on her 154 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: first day of school. We had talked about the possibility 155 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: of finding a place to find jobs and be roommates together. 156 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: Jen says they've made plans to see each other as 157 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: much as possible. At the time, she was living in Chicago, 158 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: where Tammy would spend the false am stir studying photography 159 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: at the Art Institute. We were excited about her semester 160 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: in Chicago since I had already graduated and was back 161 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 1: in Chicago. I was looking forward to getting to spend 162 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: time with her while she was here for the semester. 163 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: On the morning of August one, Tammy and her brother 164 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,239 Speaker 1: Darren packed up Tammy's white Pontiac He one thousand hatchback. 165 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: The plan was for Tammy to drive Darren back to 166 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: his college campus in Illinois, then to drive to her 167 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: own school in Iowa, where she'd visit with friends and 168 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: take photos for the yearbook before heading back to Chicago 169 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: to start a semester. They were excited about getting back 170 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: to school and getting back in with their friends and everything, 171 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: because you know their friends want her in college. Your 172 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: friends are all over the country. Tammy and Darren left 173 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: New Jersey and headed west to Pittsburgh, where they spent 174 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: the night with relatives. From there, the two drove roughly 175 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: five miles about eight hours to Evanston, Illinois, where Darren 176 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: would be dropped off to start his sophomore year at 177 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: Northwestern University. It was a route Tammy was familiar with, 178 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: having driven it with her dad once before, except this 179 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: time there were issues with the car. Her brother, Darren 180 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: would later say in an interview that they experienced engine 181 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: problems since leaving New Jersey, The engine would decelerate, the 182 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: oil light flicker, and when they pull over the engine 183 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: would shut up. The car stalled a few times during 184 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: the trip, but Darren said it was running fine once 185 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: he topped off the oil and water. Were they calling 186 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: along the road, Darren and Tammy? Were they checking in 187 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: with you? Not? Not a whole lot, but they checked 188 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: in from time to time. Do you remember anything? She said, 189 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: just that they were on the road and didn't They 190 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: didn't have much traffic and everything seemed to be going okay. 191 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: Tammy also spent that night in Evanston at the home 192 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: of a friend she had met in Spain the previous semester, 193 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: and next morning she went over to see Darren one 194 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: last time before heading out to Grinnell. Darren said he 195 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: checked the car and told Tammy that if it started 196 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: acting up again she should pull over and wait until 197 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: evening to let the engine cool down. There was no 198 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: reason for Darren to worry about his older sister. Tammy 199 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: was tough, she was savvy. She had this I can 200 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: take care of myself attitude he learned to find for 201 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: herself because her brother's they didn't give her much room. 202 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: Three brothers, three brothers. Yes, she was tough. They made 203 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: her tough. She wasn't afraid of anybody or anything. She 204 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: lived pretty well the way she wanted to. At around 205 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: one in the afternoon on Sunday, Tammy said her goodbyes 206 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: to her brother on Northwestern's campus. The drive to her 207 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: own school would take no more than five hours. When 208 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: do you begin to worry when I wasn't getting hold 209 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: of her Because she was pretty dependable. Her calling us 210 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: was unusual that she didn't go. She would check in, 211 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: what's the plan is she supposed to call you when 212 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: she gets there? Yeah, And she didn't call, So then 213 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: I started calling around campus because she should have been 214 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: there by then. It's hard for anyone to say what 215 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: exactly happened after Tammy's a wiki left her brother's school, 216 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: but here's what's been pieced together in the years that followed. 217 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: Tammy was about two hours into the drive when her 218 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: car broke down along I eighty in Lasau County, Illinois. 219 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: She was stranded near mile marker three on the westbound 220 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: side of the highway. Witnesses reported seeing a young woman 221 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: matching Tammy's description looking under the hood of her car. 222 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: A little after three pm. You're standing on the sideline 223 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: off the side. It's amazing how fastest cars are going 224 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: standing there. Marty McCarthy is a former Illinois State Police 225 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: investigator who spent years looking into the Tammy's a Wiki case. 226 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: Have you been on eighty Cars are just zooming down. 227 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: There is nothing there but cornfields for miles and miles 228 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: and trucks, trucks all over. It's a main artery. And uh, 229 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: they are less capable of stopping obviously in cars, and 230 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: so people may have noticed this really blonde girl, young 231 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: girl next to her car and maybe wanted to stop 232 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: and help her, but it would have been by time 233 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: making that recognition and stopping and pulling off. You know, 234 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: it just didn't happen. Many people did notice Tammy on 235 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: the side of the road that day. While I was 236 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: looking into her case, a source provided me with the 237 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: official tip sheet from the earliest part of the Illinois 238 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: State Police's investigation. On Sunday, August, dozens of people claimed 239 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: to have seen Tammy standing near her car for close 240 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: to an hour after three pm. By four pm, several 241 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: eyewitnesses accounts reported seeing just the car on the side 242 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: of the road, no signs of Tammy. Then at five 243 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: oh five PM, a state trooper found the hatchback. It 244 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: was locked, so he tagged it and marked it as 245 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: an abandoned vehicle. By Monday afternoon, it had been towed. 246 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: As far as the police were concerned, Tammy was an 247 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: adult who likely took off on her own. It's just 248 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: a ben car. It's not adult college girl. I think 249 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: like that, that's just not going to get on their radar, 250 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: and rightly so. And I mean, it's just At the 251 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: beginning of the summer, I took a trip out to 252 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: LaSalle County in Illinois to see the site myself. I 253 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: parked by mile mark eighty three around the same time 254 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: of day as Tammy had and recorded what I heard 255 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: out of every ten vehicles that passed by, at least 256 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: six or eighteen wheel tractor trailer type trucks. The shoulder 257 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: of the road where Tammy pulled over is so narrow 258 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: that if you stretch your arm up you can nearly 259 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: touch the cars as they whiz by. If you remove 260 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: the cars, there's not much else, just thousands of acres 261 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: of farmland. The closest Sexit ramp with a gas station 262 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,959 Speaker 1: at pay phone was two miles away plus the Midwest 263 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: in the summer, in the middle of the day, it's hot. 264 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: On the day Tammy's car broke down, the temperature was 265 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: in the eighties at best. Passing Tammy on the side 266 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: of the road at seventy eight miles per hour, you 267 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: had seconds to assess the situation. Standing there in the 268 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: same spot as Tammy did thirty years earlier made it 269 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: easy for me to understand why the sight of even 270 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: one vehicle stopping to help might be a godsend. But still, 271 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: would she have just taken anyone's offer her help? Was 272 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: Tammy the type of person who would trust somebody to 273 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: help her? Or would she be standishous, very cautious, very cautious, 274 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: very cautious? So she wasn't naive in anyway. No, Dammy 275 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: was by no, meaning that I and she had the 276 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: three brothers. They didn't give her much more in an 277 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: inch of anything, and we moved and she had to 278 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: get to know new people all the time. She was 279 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: very cautious with people. Police frequently categorized these types of 280 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: situations as runaway cases, and to their credit, that often 281 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: ends up being the scenario. But Tammy's friends and family 282 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: refused to believe that she had just taken off. It 283 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: would have been out of character. What's the first indication 284 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: that you heard of that something might have been wrong. 285 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: I was back then in Charlottesville to get ready to 286 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: start my final year of law school, and I got 287 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: a call from either my mom or dad at the time. 288 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: That's Todd Zwicki, Tammy's eldest brother, and they said, have 289 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: you heard from Tammy. We can't find Tammy. People just 290 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: thought they just didn't know where she was, what it 291 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: might be going on. The police were not alarmed, and 292 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: so at that point I thought, oh, that's weird, and 293 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: they basically said, well, if you hear from her, let 294 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: us know. Not a big alarm at that point, and 295 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: then um, it was within a day or two later, 296 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: when she hadn't turned up, that things got more urgent. 297 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: A little over twenty four hours had passed before Tammy 298 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: Ziwiki was identified as the owner of the Toad Pontiac. 299 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: It wasn't until the car's registration was entered into a 300 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: database that word finally got back to Hank and Joanne 301 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: Ziwiki that their daughter may have been last seen in 302 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: LaSalle County, Illinois. A missing person's report was immediately filed 303 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: with the Illinois State Police, and both Hank and Joanne 304 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: packed their bags and headed in that direction. That's when 305 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: I hopped on a plane and flew out there. Hearing 306 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: that the Zowikis dropped everything and immediately went to Illinois 307 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: gave me a better understanding of how close knit the 308 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: family was. They were not just another family in denial 309 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: of a troubled daughter. If the Ziwikis were uprooting their 310 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: entire lives and high tailing it out to the Midwest, 311 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: they knew something wasn't right. We all met in Chicago. 312 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: We were staying with our friend's parents, and I joined 313 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: them pretty soon after that to try to help and 314 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: try to figure out what was going on and just 315 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: help anyway I could. We had central control in my 316 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: dining room. That's Jen Nelson, Tammy's closest friend, who you 317 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: heard earlier. The dining room table had maps out of 318 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: Illinois and Iowa, and we were coordinating groups that were 319 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: searching different areas and getting reports back in when people 320 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: would return from searching. For the next week, the Ziwiki's 321 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: new home base was with Jen Nelson's family in Chicago. 322 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 1: They'd make the ninety minute drive back and forth Lassau 323 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: County every day to meet with local law enforcement. The 324 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,719 Speaker 1: Zawikis were not doing well, None of us were. Who 325 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: was getting worse and worse to think about what could 326 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: what could be happening to her and why we hadn't 327 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: been able to find her. And I think the longer 328 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: it goes on, the more likely you are to get 329 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: bad news. And you know that, and it weighs you down. 330 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: So what do you guys do next? What are you feeling? 331 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: What's going on? Well, you just you don't feel anything. 332 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: You just kind of do and hope that's the whole thing. 333 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: You hope that maybe she's just stopped someplace and just 334 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: forgot to call. I had car trouble something like that. 335 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: But then as each day went by, and you know, 336 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: you you lost hope. And what did you think then? 337 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: I didn't think. I didn't know what to think. I 338 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: was just blank. No. No, that feeling when you know 339 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: that her car had been abandoned on the road and 340 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: towed away, was what let go of any little hope 341 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: that she had walked off for help and found help, 342 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: you know, or that you know, we knew at that 343 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: point that something really bad had happened, and our hope 344 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: was that she was alive and we could find her, 345 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: but we knew that whatever situation she was in was 346 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: in a really dangerous one. By August, two days after 347 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: Tammy disappeared, a massive search effort was underway. The Illinois 348 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: National Guard had helicopters flying over the area where Tammy 349 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: was last seen on the side of Interstate eight. State 350 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: police canine units search acres upon acres of ground. Roadblocks 351 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: were set up on interstates. We opened the investigation because 352 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: the car was recovered and she was nowhere to be faring. 353 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: Tim really is a former FBI agent. It was nearly 354 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: a decade into his twenty three year career with the 355 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: Bureau when he was assigned to work the Tammy's a 356 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: wikie case. We opened a kidnapping case and not knowing 357 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: where you are what happened to her, and so we 358 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: worked the case as much as we could, so we 359 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: had no clue where she was, didn't know where you 360 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: begin to look at the I s P. Now they 361 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: have a special investigative Unit who are also looking into this, 362 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: and are you guys working together. What we had was 363 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: we had kind of a gentleman's agreement. They would cover 364 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: all leads in a state of Illinois, we would cover 365 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: the our stately. So the two meshed and that was 366 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: the general agreement we had with the state police. And 367 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: were they good about it. Very much. So they put 368 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: the cover season investigated on a case and they did 369 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: a good job in current leads, a good task force. 370 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: One of those investigators was Marty McCarthy, who became part 371 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: of that new task force created by the Illinois State Police. 372 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: After getting his start with the local police department, he 373 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: worked for the Illinois Bureau of Investigation, which he describes 374 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: as the state's version of the FBI. He left that 375 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: to join the FBI, but returned to the I s 376 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: p S Investigated Division because he wanted to work on 377 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: Tammy's case. Asked to come back to work this case, 378 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: and it was really kind of shocked to see what 379 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: the state of investigation was. This is my personal opinion, 380 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: of course, the state of investigation was at that time. 381 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: The people I've spoken to are generally split in their 382 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: views of how law enforcement handled this case. FBI agent 383 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: timilely gave the task force top marks. Marty's opinion is different. 384 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: It makes him a polarizing figure in the community. But 385 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: if you know nothing else about Marty, know this. He 386 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: is unafraid to speak his truth. And in his opinion, 387 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: the investigation was a mess from day one. They merged 388 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: under his umbrella, separate division, but the state police bureaucracy 389 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: was in charge of us as they had not been before. 390 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: They are, in my view, basically highway patrol, and they 391 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: do that and that's their emphasis. And they told me 392 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: a number of times that they just don't see investigation 393 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: as especially they'll tell you that they see, well, the 394 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: troopers investigate traffic accidents. It's not the same thing. They 395 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: didn't believe that, and in fact, would put guys at 396 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: lieutenant captain level in charge of investigatives who had never 397 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: worked the case in their life. Marty's assessment of how 398 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: the Illinois State Police operated at the time echoes what 399 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: I've heard from Tammy's own family. As her brother Todd 400 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: explained to me, the Ziwikis had to fight to convince 401 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: law enforcement that Tammy wasn't a runaway. My parents spent 402 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: a lot of time talking to the press but also 403 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: talking to the police to kind of keep the pressure 404 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 1: on them not to give up right, number one, but 405 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: number two also frankly, to be a little more aggressive 406 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: about what they were doing. For quite some time, they 407 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: defaulted to the proposition that this wasn't missing person's type thing, right, 408 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: or that maybe she had runoff with a boy or 409 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: something like that, and so there was less of a 410 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: degree of urgency, and my parents kept kind of saying, look, 411 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: that's not who she is, we know her, she didn't 412 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: do that. She's missing. They had a lot of those 413 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: interactions with the police, but I think that was something 414 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: that added to their anxiety and frustration as well. They 415 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: just kept telling us from the beginning, shella, she'll be back, 416 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: she'll be back. What are the police telling you about 417 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: what happened at this point? Early on? They don't know, 418 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: they don't know, They have no clue. They give you 419 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: no information. I had a lot of problems with the 420 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: Illinois tape place, what kind of problems, communication problems. They 421 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: just didn't want to talk to you. We'll tell you 422 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: what you need to know when you need to know it. 423 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: It took over a week before the Ziwikis were told 424 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: anything of substance. A lead from one of the eyewitnesses 425 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: that finally pushed the investigation forward. I one of the 426 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: witnesses say a tractor trailer with an orange stripe, and 427 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: so we had a poster drawn up and the share 428 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: that trying to find the truck. On day eight, investigators 429 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: announced they were looking for a white five axel semi 430 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: tractor trailer with two brownish orange rust colored diagonal stripes 431 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: on both the truck and trailer. We felt we at 432 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: least had something to work with in terms of a truck, 433 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: and because if you've been on the Interstate eight you 434 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: they're just a man trucks for different different logos and 435 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: names and attractive trailers whatnot. A drawing of the truck 436 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: in question was released to the public within our students 437 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: at Grinnell and Tammy's friends from around the country rushed 438 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: to get new flyers with the image printed and distributed 439 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: to the public. Were connected about a few miles down 440 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: the road, there's a gas station and service thing. We 441 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: interviewed people there, We interviewed there's a town of pru Illinois. 442 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: There's a truck stop for the restaurant. We interviewed truck 443 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: drivers at the truck stop, and we did the best 444 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: we could of what we had where, but we didn't 445 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: have much to work with and stating all I believe 446 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,959 Speaker 1: I'm correct us. The scales are closed on Sundays, so 447 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: we had no record trucks being on the Interstate authorities 448 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: also announced that they had a person of interest based 449 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: on tips from eyewitnesses. They were looking for a white 450 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: male about six ft tall with dark, bushy hair who 451 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: appeared to be talking to a young, blond woman resembling 452 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: Tammy on the side of I e ight on the 453 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: date and time in question. Local police said the man 454 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: may have been the last person to talk to Tammy, 455 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: but we're adamant he wasn't a suspect, just someone they 456 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: wanted to speak with. It was the biggest lead today, 457 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: a solid description of both the vehicle and a person 458 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: of interest. It gave Tammy's friends and family a much 459 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,719 Speaker 1: needed boost of hope and gave law enforcement a flood 460 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: of new tips. Everybody's looking at the semi truck with 461 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: his unusual pattern. Now the phones are ringing off the hook. 462 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: They can't even get out of the office. I'm following 463 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: the truck right now. I'm in North Carolina, dead, I 464 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: got I know where it is. I know, yeah, and 465 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: so the emphasis came on semi trucks, on my trucks, 466 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: on my trucks, on my truck. From that point forward, 467 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: the investigation developed blinders, blinders that obstructed any law enforcements 468 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: for you beyond chasing this truck tip, and more importantly, 469 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: any possibility that maybe, just maybe there was more than 470 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: one solid lead to chase the major lead, the only 471 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: human being ever seen with her by the best witness 472 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: who slows down and is positive that that's is WICKI 473 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: on the side of the road, recognizes the car. The 474 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: best was blown off. From day one. That tip, which 475 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: today lives just on an old, crumbled piece of paper, 476 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: completely changed how I approached this investigation, which made me 477 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: a firm believer that the answer to Tammy's murder has 478 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: been staring at law enforcement all along. The lead is 479 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: blown right there. This is my view. This is the kilt. 480 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: This season on Paper Ghosts, it felt like if anybody 481 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: had a chance of surviving, that it would have been 482 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: Tammy and she didn't. It all always got me that 483 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: that they never did call me or anything you know, 484 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: ever had founder. It was never clear at the time 485 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: why they completely ruled him out as a suspect. It's 486 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: disturbing to me that the police we're not able to 487 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: get more information early on. I don't think at this 488 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: point in time, for as long as this has been 489 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: an unsolved case, that anything can be discounted or should 490 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: be discounted. It's a needle in a haste. It's a 491 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: who done it? You know that that's what we got here, 492 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: So who done it? If you are enjoying Paper Ghosts, 493 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: please listen to my other podcast, Crossing the Line with 494 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: em William Phelps, where I use the same storytelling elements 495 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: you've heard in Paper Ghosts and cover missing person and 496 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: murder cases. Paper Ghosts is written and executive produced by 497 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: me and William Phelps and I Heart executive producer Christina Everett. 498 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: Additional writing by our supervising producer Julia Weaver. Our associate 499 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: producer is Darby Masters, Audio editing and mixing by Christian 500 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: Bowman and Abu Zafar. Our series theme number four four 501 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney. 502 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I 503 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 504 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.