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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 2: name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: superproducer Paul Mission Control Decat most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. Tonight's episode is going to

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Speaker 3: be a little bit different. It's a meditation, an extended

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Speaker 3: conversation about themes we had explored in earlier evenings. You know,

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Speaker 3: the future of censorship. We did that a few years ago,

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Speaker 3: and then the idea of whether any book should be banned.

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Speaker 3: And I believe in that conversation all three of us

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Speaker 3: walked way saying, well, we're against censorship, but yeah, maybe

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Speaker 3: some books shouldn't be out there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like you know, a list of procedures in assassinating

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Speaker 4: somebody and disposing of a body, you know, things like that,

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Speaker 4: probably not great, or just recipes for bombs.

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Speaker 5: Maybe not the best.

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Speaker 4: But also you can argue that it's just like it's

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Speaker 4: just it's sort of like we have the old rules

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Speaker 4: of the head shops back in the day. This is

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Speaker 4: only for tobacco use, right, It's all on how you

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Speaker 4: use it well.

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Speaker 2: And today we're talking about the dangers of books, words, concepts,

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Speaker 2: and ideas that are written that are potentially very dangerous

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Speaker 2: for the future. But they're mostly written about the past.

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Speaker 3: That's correct. We are exploring something related. It's a consequence

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Speaker 3: of what you can call narrative control. Companning books help

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Speaker 3: people empower control the past. Is it possible that powerful

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Speaker 3: forces in the modern day can literally erase history, rewriting

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Speaker 3: it to suit their own ends. As George Orwell famously said,

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Speaker 3: who controls the past controls the future in nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 3: and you know, maybe nineteen eighty four isn't so long ago,

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Speaker 3: and maybe nineteen eighty four is or Well saw it

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Speaker 3: is on the way as we record. Here are the facts. Look,

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Speaker 3: there's another great book that's kind of about this or

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Speaker 3: involves this, by the legendary author Neil Stephenson. It's called Anathem.

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Speaker 3: In both of those books, these very shadowy, very potent

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Speaker 3: forces conspire to control everything the public knows about the past.

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Speaker 3: We've always been at war with East Asia. We've also

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Speaker 3: always been at war with Eurasia. And you know, you'll

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Speaker 3: just have the double think your way around it in

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Speaker 3: anathem without spoiling it too much. A renegade or secretive

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Speaker 3: cabal of monks. They're a little less sinister, they're greater

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Speaker 3: good type dudes, but they're no less powerful. And it's

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Speaker 3: strange because these are both works of fiction for now,

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Speaker 3: but they point toward a very real thing, this ongoing

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Speaker 3: debate about history and who owns it.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 5: I think it's interesting too.

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Speaker 4: We've been doing a lot of these kind of book

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Speaker 4: and media recommendations on the Instagram and youtubes and stuff,

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Speaker 4: and I think one thing that I think we all

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Speaker 4: probably think about when we're recommending a book, whether it's

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Speaker 4: fiction or nonfiction, is whether or not it gives you

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Speaker 4: It empowers you as a reader to kind of reset

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Speaker 4: your thinking around these types of questions. You know, who

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Speaker 4: controls the narrative? You know, nineteen eighty four is a

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Speaker 4: work of fiction, but more prescient now than ever. You

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Speaker 4: could argue that in some ways works of fiction can

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Speaker 4: be just as dangerous, if not more so, as works

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Speaker 4: of nonfiction. For those in power, because they do have

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Speaker 4: the ability to kind of change minds, even if it's

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Speaker 4: just a little bit over time.

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Speaker 3: Sure, same reason music gets banned pretty often. It's weird. Okay.

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Speaker 3: So our word for the day or word for the

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Speaker 3: evening is such a very English language word. Historiography history, graphy, history,

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Speaker 3: history of history. It's the study of history and the

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Speaker 3: methodology of history as a discipline. So it's like it's

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Speaker 3: like studying the tech. It's like not studying the symbolism

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Speaker 3: of tarot cards, but studying the margins of printing that

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Speaker 3: were used on tarot cards throughout history.

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Speaker 5: It's very tough.

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Speaker 2: Oh, very nice. Hey you guys. I just learned the

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Speaker 2: collective noun for historians. Ooh, and I'm just going to

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Speaker 2: shout out before I even say what it is. I

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Speaker 2: want to shout out James M. Banner Junior, who wrote

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Speaker 2: a book titled The Ever Changing Past why all history

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Speaker 2: is revisionist history? But he states the collective down for

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Speaker 2: historians is an argumentation.

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Speaker 6: Ooh, well, see it's my perspective, right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, we all see things and experience

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Speaker 4: things and process things differently. Something that isn't happening right

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Speaker 4: now that we're not looking at as it occurs. There

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Speaker 4: is inherently within the retelling a bias, and I guess

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Speaker 4: you could argue that the best historian sort of throw

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Speaker 4: that are better at, you know, contending with that bias.

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Speaker 4: But I love that. I think that actually is the

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Speaker 4: best way I've heard it described. That it is sort

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Speaker 4: of like, well, here's this school of thought, here's this

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Speaker 4: school of thought, here's the way we think.

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Speaker 5: It went down.

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Speaker 4: But it's not even about an argument over event, it's

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Speaker 4: about what they mean.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it also reminds me. I try not to quote

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Speaker 3: it too often, but it also reminds me of that

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Speaker 3: William Faulkner quote the past is never dead, it's not

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Speaker 3: even the past. Something like that. It's true. And we

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Speaker 3: have to love the English language other you know, it

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Speaker 3: feels like peak English to have a word heard about

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Speaker 3: historian studying history. And as meta and weirdly extra as

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Speaker 3: that sounds, it's extremely important now more than ever to

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Speaker 3: steal the line from Fox News. Understanding the objective truth

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Speaker 3: of the past. It's a pretty tricky thing and it

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Speaker 3: always has been, I mean for thousands of years, right,

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Speaker 3: basically since people started peopling. They've disagreed on various narratives,

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Speaker 3: various aspects of origin, stories, explanations of the natural world,

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Speaker 3: what happens when object A meets object B, all kinds

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Speaker 3: of stuff, and increasingly some members of humanity started to

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Speaker 3: lie about some facts, to bend some truths for agendas

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Speaker 3: of their own. And it didn't start out, it didn't

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Speaker 3: start out as a purposeful conspiracy. There was no malevolence.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we talk about this some ridiculous history. We've

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Speaker 3: talked about it here. Back in the day, people disagreed

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Speaker 3: about what we consider objective facts at this point. And

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Speaker 3: they weren't stupid, they weren't evil. They just didn't have

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Speaker 3: access to the same kind of information we have access

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Speaker 3: to today.

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Speaker 4: You mean, like in terms of religious explanations for history

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Speaker 4: and religious explanations for the way the world works.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, man like, And that might be a hot take

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Speaker 3: for some folks, but let's explore it together. Imagine way

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Speaker 3: way back, thousands of years ago, just hypothetical tribes. There's

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Speaker 3: a tribe in one part of the world, say they're

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Speaker 3: way up in the mountains. They have a completely different

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Speaker 3: understanding of the past than another tribe hundreds of miles

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Speaker 3: away in the plains in the valleys. To your point,

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Speaker 3: they have very different religious beliefs, different socioeconomic practices. And

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Speaker 3: imagine now they meet for the first time. This is

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Speaker 3: for them, this is like meeting aliens, and they're trying

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Speaker 3: to communicate, right, they have their best intentions. They're telling

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Speaker 3: each other the fundamental, inarguable truth of the world as

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Speaker 3: they see it. And each person in that conversation, each

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Speaker 3: side they think the other one is crazy. Yeah, of course,

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Speaker 3: there are lots of gods. The sun is the main god.

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Speaker 3: People always came from mud mixed with water, and the

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Speaker 3: other guys like you, ding bat. Yeah, sure, the sun

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Speaker 3: is a god, it is not the main, dude, by

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Speaker 3: any stretch. And if you don't know that you come

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Speaker 3: from corn, then you must not be human. As a

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Speaker 3: matter of fact, this lake belongs to us, now wow.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, well, And then imagine that escalates into those

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Speaker 2: two tribes fighting and essentially obliterating each other. Right, so

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Speaker 2: there's not much left of either one. Then imagine, you know,

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Speaker 2: an historian or an anthropologist or somebody stumbles upon this scene,

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Speaker 2: let's say a thousand years later, maybe just one hundred

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Speaker 2: years later, and sees what's left on that battlefield, what's

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Speaker 2: left of the houses, the writing that's in the houses,

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Speaker 2: and you know, then has to interpret what happened because

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Speaker 2: nobody's there to say, oh, this group and this group

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Speaker 2: they disagreed over some stuff and they all died. The

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Speaker 2: historian or the anthropologist has to make stuff up basically

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Speaker 2: or interpret the signs, read the tea leaves that are there,

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Speaker 2: and also is applying their own understanding of the world

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Speaker 2: to that situation.

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Speaker 3: Right, absolutely well put, because then and where these are

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Speaker 3: all hypotheticals. But then imagine in that case, the historian

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Speaker 3: looking into this or the archaeologists looking into this, they say, well,

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Speaker 3: I study arrowheads, and so my paper is going to

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Speaker 3: be about the tremendous role that arrowheads played in both

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Speaker 3: of these civilizations. Now that's not wrong, but that might

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Speaker 3: be making the wrong thing the main character. If that

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Speaker 3: makes sense. Sure, so it happens, and it happens again

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Speaker 3: with good intentions. Histories not set in stone as we record.

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Speaker 3: It's true, governments have suppressed archaeological digs in the past.

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Speaker 3: Humanity has lost entire cities. Concepts like phantom time still

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Speaker 3: get a lot of attention, which I absolutely love.

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Speaker 2: You're living in the seventeen hundreds right now. I saw

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Speaker 2: that on Instagram's reels like yesterday.

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Speaker 4: Wasn't that in the plot of an m Night Shaymalan

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Speaker 4: movie too? Or maybe that was a little different.

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Speaker 3: It's village similar. Yeah, I like the village.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's fine. And I also liked his new one,

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Speaker 5: The What the Cabin at the End of the World.

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Speaker 3: I preferred the book much more like the I think

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Speaker 3: the film missed some things.

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Speaker 4: It sort of romanticized some things and did a little

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Speaker 4: bit of an easier to digest ending but by Paul Tremblay,

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Speaker 4: who apparently listens to the show and reposted a video

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Speaker 4: that we we posted about one of his books, which

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Speaker 4: was very sweet. I wanted to mention too, Ben, how

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Speaker 4: do you feel that this figures into like and I

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Speaker 4: know we'll probably get into this in terms of the

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Speaker 4: history of it, like you know, the South, the perspective

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Speaker 4: of you know, who won the war and all that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we know who won the war, but in

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Speaker 4: certain parts of the country there are things in history

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Speaker 4: books that might be soft pedaled a little bit. But

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Speaker 4: what about that whole debate over like should evolution be

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Speaker 4: included in science books? You know, in places that are

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Speaker 4: maybe governed a little bit more by more religious kind

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Speaker 4: of thinking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we're going to get to that in depth.

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Speaker 3: I think, like the crazy thing here is, for thousands

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Speaker 3: of thousands of years, people didn't really know what the

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Speaker 3: heck was going on scientifically, so you had to have

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Speaker 3: a cultural framework, usually religious. And now after millennia, human

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Speaker 3: beings today do have a little bit better idea of

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Speaker 3: what happened in the past, a little bit better and

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Speaker 3: a big part of that success, yeah, it came from

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Speaker 3: advances in technology. But I would pause it to your

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Speaker 3: question that perhaps the most important piece of the puzzle

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Speaker 3: was the removal of religion and ideology from the realm

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Speaker 3: of science. Now, all of a sudden, you don't have

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Speaker 3: to bend objective discoveries to suit the narratives of people

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Speaker 3: or institutions and power. Now you can just tell the truth.

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Speaker 3: You can be like, hey, Earth orbits the sun, and

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Speaker 3: people won't execute you, which is a big win.

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Speaker 4: People won't execute you just for like expressing that, right right, Yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: But isn't that interesting, though, Ben?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think it goes without saying that We've

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Speaker 4: talked about it a lot, that that kind of perspective.

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Speaker 4: Just speaking it into the world is such a threat

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Speaker 4: to the powers that be, you know, in a time

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Speaker 4: where we were living, you know, in a heliocentric view

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Speaker 4: of the world or whatever, or like flat Earth or whatever.

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Speaker 4: I like, when someone breaks those norms and speaks out

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Speaker 4: and has credibility behind them, that is dangerous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird. It makes me guys. I just recently

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Speaker 2: watched the twenty sixteen movie Arrival.

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Speaker 5: Academy very very good, yea beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Super good. And I'm gonna throw a spoiler in right here,

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Speaker 2: So if you have not seen the movie Arrival, do

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Speaker 2: yourself a favor and skip forward fifteen seconds. That movie

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Speaker 2: is amazing because in the end, the weapon that the

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Speaker 2: extraterrestrials are attempting to give to humanity is a language,

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Speaker 2: a language that allows the mind whoever can wield that

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Speaker 2: language to see time differently, right, And so it's literally

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Speaker 2: I'm just thinking. The reason I'm thinking about this is

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Speaker 2: just language as a weapon when wielded. When when you

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Speaker 2: use history as your like medium, or I don't know

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Speaker 2: your battle your battlefield, I.

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Speaker 5: Guess this, Felu. No, No, you're right, you're right.

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Speaker 2: It just feels like that. I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 2: know why I got one of those visions. Amy Adams

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Speaker 2: gets visions right.

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Speaker 6: You hit it right in the head.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that is exactly what that movie is trying

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Speaker 4: to express. I think, is that the biggest, the greatest

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Speaker 4: weapon of all can be language. There's even like a

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Speaker 4: dumb money Python sketch about like this weaponized joke that's

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Speaker 4: so funny that at any time it's used, it kills

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Speaker 4: anyone that hears it, and they have to like keep

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Speaker 4: it in parts, and one time accidentally someone got both

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Speaker 4: parts and it killed a whole room of generals or whatever.

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Speaker 4: I just think that's great satire, and you know, and

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Speaker 4: the Villanov movie is just taking that to the next

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Speaker 4: level and making it about like time and space and

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Speaker 4: our place in the universe.

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Speaker 3: And without sounding like a broken record. The short story

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Speaker 3: it's based on is also really good, and the Arrival

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Speaker 3: is really faithful adaptation of it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think in a previous episode we may mention that

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Speaker 3: language is technology. Language is one of the oldest technologies,

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Speaker 3: quite possibly predating fire right, which is still pretty popular.

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Speaker 3: So our idea is that you don't ideally you no

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Speaker 3: longer have to bend the truth. You no longer have

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Speaker 3: to dilute the objective veracity of a thing to please

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Speaker 3: a power structure, or do you The question tonight is

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Speaker 3: could powerful people or institutions in the present day, could

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Speaker 3: they control narratives such that they alter the public's understanding

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Speaker 3: of history? And if they are doing that, if that

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Speaker 3: is the case, then why at this point maybe we

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Speaker 3: pause for a word from our sponsors and get into

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Speaker 3: some deep water that will be edited years later. Here's

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Speaker 3: where it gets crazy. Okay, so what do you think?

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Speaker 3: And people still rewrite the past.

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Speaker 6: It's happening all the time before our very eyes.

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Speaker 4: People rewrite last week, people rewrite yesterday. It's it's it's rhetoric.

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Speaker 4: It's absolutely happening now more than ever, and it's easier

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Speaker 4: to do because of the Internet. And people just kind

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Speaker 4: of believe the take that they see when they see it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I In writing for The New York Times, Max

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Speaker 2: Fisher back in January of this year, he talked about

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Speaker 2: right now, there are a bunch of leaders, both autocratic

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Speaker 2: and democratic alike, who are attempting to shift narratives in

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Speaker 2: the public sphere of actual historical events right to and

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Speaker 2: they're doing this to benefit themselves, whether it's in an

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Speaker 2: election or whether it's in you know, keeping their own

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Speaker 2: power in a country. And it's happening more and more

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Speaker 2: and more, and it seems to be more and more effective,

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Speaker 2: you know, at a way to sway a populace.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah. And then go to this this real

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Speaker 3: banger of a scholarly paper called Power, Freedom and the

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Speaker 3: Censorship of History, which aligns with the New York Times

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Speaker 3: article you side of Matt. It's by a guy named

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Speaker 3: Professor Antune Debates from the Netherlands. And this guy also says,

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Speaker 3: you know, you can't be too precious about your current

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Speaker 3: ideological identifications because quote censorship of history has been practiced

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Speaker 3: in all modes, genres, fields, categories, and periods of history,

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Speaker 3: and in all countries. To begin with, it ranges over

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Speaker 3: all modes of the historiographical operation. All right, Well, lost

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Speaker 3: the translation at the end, but there's the end.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's true that that guy I mentioned earlier who

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Speaker 2: wrote a book, James M. Banner Junior. One of the

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Speaker 2: first points he makes in his book and he wrote

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Speaker 2: a really great piece you can find right now for

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Speaker 2: the National Endowment for the Humanities he talks about the

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Speaker 2: first historical revisionism literally occurred the first time a couple

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Speaker 2: of guys in ancient Greece got around to figure out

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Speaker 2: what history is and like basically define it and change

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Speaker 2: just the past, you know, things that happened, to the

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Speaker 2: stories of the things that happened.

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Speaker 3: It was wild man. Oh, that must have been such

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Speaker 3: a time being in historian back then, because you could

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Speaker 3: just say I heard about it, and you know, none

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Speaker 3: of you reading this are going to leave thirty miles

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Speaker 3: from where you were born. So this is what a

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Speaker 3: hippo looks like, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and this is my interpretation of what is

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Speaker 2: actually in the Iliad and the historical events surrounding the

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Speaker 2: myth that is that thing, Right.

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Speaker 4: Ben, you brought a really incredible book that I'd heard

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Speaker 4: talked about for years but it never actually seen it

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Speaker 4: to one of these video shoots we did the other day,

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Speaker 4: the Codex Sarafineous. I believe it's called right, yeah, you're.

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Speaker 2: A weird pronunciation, Sarah.

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Speaker 4: Point is it's this completely legit looking tomb of presumably history, science, drawings.

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Speaker 6: All of this, but it's but it's all Bolt.

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Speaker 5: Beautiful Bolt it's all art man, it's.

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Speaker 4: But my point is, like I think there was a

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Speaker 4: time even where some people were like the thought it

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Speaker 4: was some kind of artifact or whatever.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if that was the intent, like Blair

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Speaker 4: witch marketing style or whatever, but I think the point

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Speaker 4: is with any kind of retelling, if you say it

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Speaker 4: with enough authority, and you say it enough times and

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Speaker 4: you make it feel legitimate enough enough people are gonna

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Speaker 4: believe it. They're gonna repeat it, sure, and then then

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Speaker 4: it's just gonna keep carrying on. And then you have

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Speaker 4: these conflicting narratives. But now, because it's so easy to

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Speaker 4: proliferate false narratives, there's so many one of them floating

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Speaker 4: out around there, and you really have to do your

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Speaker 4: due diligence to figure out which one's at least somewhat

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Speaker 4: close to the truth.

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Speaker 3: And that is quickly becoming a full time profession. This

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Speaker 3: paper from eight, just like the Banner junior book that

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Speaker 3: you're citing there, met this paper is pretty fascinating because

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Speaker 3: it's like an insult comic. It's no holds barred, it's

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Speaker 3: not married to any particular political ideology. This guy looks

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Speaker 3: at different regimes power structures to determine what people are

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Speaker 3: allowed to know about their past. And of course we

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Speaker 3: all know dictators, autocrats, demagogues, they're going to be big,

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Speaker 3: big fans of censorship and control. But we cannot make

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Speaker 3: the mistake in assuming that democracies are necessarily better. He

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Speaker 3: breaks down the process of how this stuff happens. And

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Speaker 3: these are two rough categories. There's pre censorship, which is

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Speaker 3: one of the Well, that's the one. I think that's

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Speaker 3: the sleeper hit. Maybe we describe what we mean by

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Speaker 3: pre censorship.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'll tell you what the in my head, what

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Speaker 2: I see the movie Good Morning Vietnam, And there are

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Speaker 2: twins that work in the censorship room where any and

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Speaker 2: all intel that's coming into the radio station or the

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Speaker 2: base where the radio station is. They decide what can

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Speaker 2: or cannot be told right as news. And for me,

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Speaker 2: that's true, that's all real. I mean, it's based on

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Speaker 2: real events. Yeah, I mean it's a it's a telling.

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Speaker 2: It's historical revisionism about the actual people like Adrian Cronauer.

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Speaker 2: But still what I'm what I mean is I see

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Speaker 2: those two guys in my head, like deciding what can

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Speaker 2: go out there. But I guess that's just censorship. What

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Speaker 2: is pre censorship?

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Speaker 4: That's more like having your work pre tweaked before it

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Speaker 4: even is released. It's not banning books. It's augmenting things

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Speaker 4: like manuscripts or like a press releases or public statements.

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Speaker 5: And this really happens. We know, this happens, you know,

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Speaker 5: I mean less so with books.

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Speaker 4: But you might have a situation where you're writing a

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Speaker 4: tell all and you've got some source and it's a

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Speaker 4: real risk to include that source in a certain way.

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Speaker 4: So your public might be pre censoring.

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Speaker 5: Some of that.

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Speaker 4: But that's not quite the same, But that is an

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Speaker 4: example that could happen in real life.

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Speaker 3: No, I think it's very much the same, you know,

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Speaker 3: because pre censorship, when successful, is invisible to the public.

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Speaker 5: That's right.

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Speaker 3: It's also not just cutting off at the past a

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Speaker 3: paper written before it publishes, also cutting off at the

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Speaker 3: past a direction of research. These are very interesting ideas,

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Speaker 3: but I am under the impression you would like to

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Speaker 3: continue your career at the university.

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Speaker 2: So we're really that your research, but we are going

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Speaker 2: to take that research pop it over here to our

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Speaker 2: Darbale I mean our secret government.

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Speaker 3: Vintion Secrecy Act. Yeah, cough cough. So this and like

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Speaker 3: you said, it gets tweaked. Things are kept secret, maybe

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Speaker 3: they're destroyed, maybe the authors are threatened. That makes total

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Speaker 3: sense for dictatorships. But also to that point you made

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Speaker 3: before anybody in the US gets on our high horse

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Speaker 3: about this, we have to remember that if you're a

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Speaker 3: former intelligence agent in the United States, you have to

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Speaker 3: jump through a lot of hoops before you make a

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Speaker 3: public statement, before you publish a book, like Jake Hanrahan said,

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Speaker 3: or Pal Jake, I don't know if those people really retire,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So then there's the other one. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: this is the more famous of the two. Post censorship.

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Speaker 3: Something comes out, it gets banned because it's either it's

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Speaker 3: dangerous for some reason, whether that's threatening the status quo,

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Speaker 3: whether that is putting a group of people in a

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Speaker 3: community at risk, you know, or it might just be changed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about just restricting access to certain websites

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Speaker 2: or search key terms or you know, things that you

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Speaker 2: could do to control the Internet nowadays as a way

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Speaker 2: to take part in post censorship.

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Speaker 4: Or like what happened with that Goofy seth Rogen movie

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Speaker 4: where they had the you know, Kim jong Il's face

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Speaker 4: being melted off. Remember, there was some presensorship involved in

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Speaker 4: that because they didn't want it to cause an international incident.

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Speaker 4: But then the movie ended up being just so much

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Speaker 4: less remarkable and offensive than anyone might have thought. And

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Speaker 4: and then it got more boost probably from all the

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Speaker 4: talk of censorship than about anything that was actually in

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Speaker 4: the movie.

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Speaker 2: But there was post censorship too, right, Like.

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Speaker 4: There was, but maybe I'm misremembering, but I do feel

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Speaker 4: like there was some demand to like, you know, censor

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Speaker 4: what was in there before it came out. And also,

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Speaker 4: by the way, I mean, we know this happens all

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Speaker 4: the time in other countries with American films, like I believe,

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Speaker 4: like in the Barbie movie, there's a map that was

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Speaker 4: showing some ben you're nodding, I think, you know, you know,

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Speaker 4: this is the geopolitical thing, but it was like a

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Speaker 4: territory that was in dispute Vietnam. Perhaps it was showing

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Speaker 4: this thing, this body of land as part of a

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Speaker 4: country that that was in dispute or something like that.

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Speaker 4: And to that point, they were like, you know, enraged,

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Speaker 4: and they insisted they wouldn't release it unless that was

435
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 4: taken out.

436
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, the map controversies there. There's also a standing policy,

437
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 3: going back to our episode on the Chinese film industry,

438
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 3: there's a standing policy not to depict other countries' landmarks

439
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 3: or there are a lot of rules around it. So

440
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 3: if the statue of liberty is in a film, then

441
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 3: that gets worked around.

442
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 5: Don't they have a policy against ghosts? Yes? Two? Is

443
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 5: that a thing that I means? Okay, that's wild? Any

444
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 5: more specific?

445
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 3: Uh, that's in the in the episode. What we talk

446
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 3: about there is sort of their reasoning behind these things. Right,

447
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 3: we'd have to get back into it, but if you're

448
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 3: interested in learning more, please do check out our episode

449
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 3: on the Chinese film industry. It's a eye opening and

450
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 3: here's hoping we can still clear customs.

451
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: By the way, if you're interested in that Barbie map thing,

452
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: look up nine dash line. That is a very specific thing.

453
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 3: And it was Vietnam who bannit.

454
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, apparently the movie Crimson Peak didn't get released in

455
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 4: China because it had too many spooky ghosts in it,

456
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 4: and like Ghostbusters, never got released in China. It's a

457
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 4: long standing party line, the communist party line not to depict.

458
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 4: I think it must have to do with ancestor worship

459
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 4: kind of stuff that they.

460
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: Say it's disrespectful, Yeah, ancestor warship. And then tamping down

461
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 3: religion in favor of atheism, because what was it? Was

462
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 3: it old old Mao. Uncle Mao said that religion is

463
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: opiate for the masses, or his administration did. So if

464
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 3: if something is supernatural that see, that might be a

465
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 3: little too close to the line of religion. But anyway,

466
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 3: this this kind of stuff post censorship, pre censorship, it

467
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: makes sense for dictators.

468
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 4: Uh.

469
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 3: And I do want to point out poor Ghostbusters too.

470
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 3: It's an amazing film, but it has two strikes against it.

471
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 3: First it's got ghost and then spoilers. The statue of

472
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 3: liberty plays a huge role. Oh no, how is the

473
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: policy on ooze okay? With I think they're I think

474
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 3: they're fine with Oo's. I think they're Ooh's neutral. So

475
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 3: here's the way to put it. And I was up

476
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: late when I was thinking of this, so it might

477
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 3: wax a little poetic. But if you were a dick

478
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 3: natorial regime, then propaganda is kind of your loud gun

479
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: and censorship is your knife. It's silent, but they are

480
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: both dangerous and they're both used to keep people in line.

481
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 3: And while you might not see academics popping Kalishnikov's or

482
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 3: aks in the trenches, make no mistake, they are always

483
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: going to be some of the first people targeted in

484
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: a coup, in a military coup, especially for good reason,

485
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: along with journalists, along with authors. I mean, shout out

486
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 3: to the numerous If you don't think nerds can throw down,

487
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: shout out to the numerous Central and Latin American academics

488
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: who became revolutionaries to fight fascism and to fight honestly,

489
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: a lot of US supported forces. You don't hear their

490
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: stories often because those are, to quote Al Gore inconvenient truths.

491
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: He help, I'm being suppressed exactly.

492
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: We did a lot of study on Fidel Castro up

493
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: a while ago, but honestly, I didn't learn a ton

494
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: about his personal history, and that's just making me think

495
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: I want to learn more about that and learn more

496
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: about FARK and some of these other groups. It's like

497
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: the history of the individual leaders because I do not

498
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 2: know that stuff.

499
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well, I wish luck on your journey, Matt.

500
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: They're not perfect people, oh.

501
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: Who is right? But again, like there's not a single

502
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: human being on this planet. It's perfect. Sorry, that's how

503
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: we're that's how we're born.

504
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 6: It was a perfect phone call.

505
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 4: It was.

506
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: Me.

507
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, mister Rogers probably like haunted somewhat in traffic.

508
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 3: So I guess because we all got to aim for something.

509
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 3: We'll see if the Rico lass stands up now that

510
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: itself is being eroded.

511
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 4: So of your theory there, but maybe not the time,

512
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 4: but immediately interesting what better time.

513
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 5: I mean, just a quick sidebar. There's a Rico case

514
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 5: being against a lot.

515
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,719
Speaker 4: Of the opposition to this whole cop city movement here

516
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 4: in Atlanta, and it's I don't even understand how they're

517
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 4: using it, but.

518
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 3: There it's a clearly egregious use of Rico law. To

519
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: be absolutely transparent about this, I think we can speak

520
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: as a unified show here we support the stop cop

521
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: City movement. Militarization of police has led to many, many

522
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 3: things in the past, and none of those things have

523
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: been good.

524
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 4: That's what's kind off we're talking about here too, that

525
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 4: that militarizerization of the police is what allows nineteen eighty

526
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 4: four totalitarian type situations to flourish. And what's happening is

527
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 4: these people are being targeted literally for spreading information, for

528
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: trying to protest a thing, for you know, activating people

529
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 4: resigning a petition. So Ben's theory is, though that they're

530
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 4: using this, that it may well be such an egregious

531
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 4: misuse that another very prominent use of RICO law might

532
00:30:59,240 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 4: be called into.

533
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: Ques right erode the credibility of RICO and we'll see

534
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 3: how that works out. Look forward to your thoughts on that.

535
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 3: Just objectively would that work anyway? There are tons of

536
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: examples of people controlling history as we record. To your point, Matt,

537
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: ask Cuba what they think led to those US embargoes,

538
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: you know, get their side of the story. Read the

539
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 3: North Korean version of what the US calls the Korean War.

540
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: In DPRK they call it the Fatherland Liberation War. So

541
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: you can already see there's some dividing narratives. You'll hear

542
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: a very different version of that than the one you

543
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 3: hear in South Korea. Are okay or the or the

544
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 3: rest of the world. And to that question all about

545
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 3: the Civil War, this trend applies to pretty much any

546
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: war in history then and tonight. That's why we did

547
00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: that episode on textbooks.

548
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's why in Britain the Revolutionary War is

549
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: titled the Peasant Uprising the pesky Peasants seventeen hundreds.

550
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 4: So inconvenient those peasants with their needs for bread and water,

551
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 4: ab sustenance and shelter.

552
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 3: Ough, And it goes so small too. Just to light

553
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: in the mood a little bit, you can go to

554
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: almost any historical article about the Middle East ernie, oh

555
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 3: god forbid, any geopolitical article about the Middle East. You

556
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: can go to the Wikipedia entry and click on the

557
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 3: talk tab and just bring some popcorn because people are

558
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 3: still fighting over that. And then even it goes even

559
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 3: unto food, because food is a huge part of culture.

560
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: Ask people who invented what particular dish? Who can claim hummus?

561
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 3: Who is the first to knock that lemon in those

562
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: chickpeas together?

563
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 4: Oh man, I can't remember who it was, but it

564
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 4: was somebody like a food historian, or maybe it was

565
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 4: literally just like a chef on the Splendid Table or

566
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 4: Milk Street or one of those NPR shows, and they

567
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 4: were talking about that exact thing, about how like there

568
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 4: it's impossible because these things are part of the oral tradition.

569
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 4: They're carried around you know, and they're they're made, they're

570
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 4: improved and changed and by the time it gets to

571
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 4: the final form, like whatever that even is. You know,

572
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 4: no one knows who actually really truly invented the thing.

573
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 5: Not to mention like that.

574
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 4: You know, chicken tika masala is the national dish of

575
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: the UK.

576
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 3: That's just that's freaking imperialism.

577
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: It's so good to me. Well, that makes me think.

578
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: Of like who won colonialism. I was talking with a

579
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: I was talking with an Indian American friend of mine

580
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: about this. She was in town recently, and uh, and

581
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 3: you know, we had to point it out. She spent

582
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 3: some time in the UK as well. We had to

583
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 3: point out, what does it say about regional British cuisine

584
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 3: that your national dish is from India? You know what

585
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: I mean. It's it's a statement, no offense. One of

586
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 3: my favorite restaurants does kind of reimagine British cuisine, Saint

587
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: John's out in London.

588
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 5: Someone imagining it kind of terrible on itself.

589
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 3: Shout out to Fergus Henderson. Also, he's an awesome writer.

590
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 2: You can either have chicken tacon masala or spotted dick

591
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 2: you chuse, Yeah, I think.

592
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: They shot themselves in the foot a little bit with

593
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 3: the names you know what I mean, barley water, what

594
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: did I do wrong? Bangers and or mash So another

595
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 3: example would be palm free, don't call them French fries

596
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 3: in Belgium. And these things might seem innocuous, but it

597
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: goes much much further into much more dangerous waters of

598
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 3: cultural erasure. Humans have only ever been the sum of

599
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 3: the stories they tell themselves, and as a result, those

600
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: stories are extremely important. They're mission critical to any government

601
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 3: from the ancient past to the modern day. A government

602
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: is just made up of humans so far, and so

603
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 3: also in a large part, it is a story it

604
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 3: tells its collective self. Shout out to the American dream, right,

605
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: That's one of the most popular narratives around here. And

606
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 3: this makes us think about the historical trends. We've only

607
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 3: name checked a few examples, but there are many, many, many,

608
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 3: many other examples, virtually countless because this is so common,

609
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 3: and why should we care? Why should we care? In

610
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, we'll take a pause for a word

611
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: from our sponsor and we'll tell you. And we have

612
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 3: returned these examples, Like we said, they're part of a larger,

613
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 3: sadly recurrent trend through all cultures, all civilizations, all time periods.

614
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 3: No single country has gotten away clean. Everyone, every force

615
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 3: at some point has told you a story that they

616
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 3: prefer you to believe. And it used to be much simpler.

617
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 3: You know, if you wanted to retroactively edit history, you

618
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 3: just had to kill the people who were there when

619
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: it happened, right.

620
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: Yes, pretty simple, Just eradicate a bunch of people, or

621
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: it's not maybe it's not that many people, maybe it's

622
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 2: just one.

623
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 3: And when the written word arrived, things got a little

624
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 3: more complicated. You had to create a class system and

625
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 3: restrict access to literacy, right, A priestly class, a noble class,

626
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 3: a monastic class, or something like that. And the problem

627
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 3: is that never works, because literacy is a cognitive virus.

628
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 3: People will inevitably learn to read, and if they are

629
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 3: prevented from learning the language of the in class, they'll

630
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: find a workaround. They'll make something that they can.

631
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 2: Understand, yeah, and use it as a weapon to fight back.

632
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 5: Right.

633
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, you know you could talk about the Vulgate Bible,

634
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 3: why that was controversial, right, or there are modern examples

635
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 3: that we don't have to get into.

636
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 2: But okay, well, maintaining how about maintaining a language in

637
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: a like a smaller community or in an uprising, you

638
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 2: know group, you maintain a specific language that you can

639
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: communicate in that you know your oppressors or the person

640
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 2: you're fighting against cannot speak or read.

641
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 5: Mm hmmm.

642
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a huge part of it, a barrier to access.

643
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 3: And then let's say, you know, because literacy will inevitably

644
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 3: arise in some form, that means books or something like

645
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: books will begin to exist. So now it's complicated. You

646
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: can't just kill the people. You have to somehow destroy

647
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 3: the note in the books, so burn them, prevent them

648
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 3: from being written, ban them, et cetera. And then at

649
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 3: the same time you propagate the version of the truth

650
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 3: that you want out there, like building an urban legend.

651
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 5: It's exactly like that, Ben, I think that's spot on.

652
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 4: It also makes me think of how another important technology

653
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 4: I guess of warfare is cracking codes. You know, what

654
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 4: was it the operation that actually won US World War One?

655
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 3: I think it was touring cracking the Enigma codes, right.

656
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, because again there was they were you know, using language,

657
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 4: using information, siloing information, and then transmitting it over publicly

658
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 4: available channels, disguising it right, and then once you have

659
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 4: that cipher, then you have the upper hand, you know,

660
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,959
Speaker 4: I mean, language in so many ways.

661
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 5: Is such a weapon in and of itself.

662
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's you know, not to belabor

663
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 4: the point, but I just I find it fascinating.

664
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: I think we all do agreed, agreed. So you've got

665
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 3: you've got your state approved version of the truth. You're

666
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 3: getting rid of any alternative or revisionist viewpoints, and you

667
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: can reward the people who fall in line by not

668
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: murdering them mainly. And so back when the average person

669
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: lived and died within what around thirty miles of where

670
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 3: they were born, they had very little chance of seeing

671
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 3: the wider world unless they were a merchant, unless they

672
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: were sent to war, or they went on a religious pilgrimage. Right,

673
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: otherwise they're going to be pretty local. And this was

674
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 3: a very this was a nearly full proof proposition. It

675
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: was easier to change the past. There were fewer people

676
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: and they had fewer avenues of access to knowledge. So

677
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 3: now it wouldn't be crazy to assume that the dawn

678
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 3: of the information age would end this grift. Right like now,

679
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 3: everybody with a phone can read any.

680
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 2: Yay, it's so weird. It's so weird. Okay, guys, I'm thinking,

681
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 2: I don't want to politicize this, but just I want

682
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: to use this as an example because I think it's

683
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 2: pretty prescient. That same article that I meant I mentioned

684
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: Max Fisher before writing for The New York Times. It's

685
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: titled in a Race to shape the future, history is

686
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 2: under new pressure, and he cites the January sixth thing

687
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 2: and the election of current President Joe Biden as like

688
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: one of these flashpoints where historical revisionism is like occurring

689
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: in real time. Yes, where there are fact there are

690
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 2: As an individual, you have to decide who to believe

691
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: about what actually occurred, Like you have to make the

692
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 2: decision to believe in something, and whichever one you believe

693
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: is the objective truth for you, right, and everybody else

694
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: is lying or has a motivation to tell you that lies.

695
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 4: But doesn't it also depend on like your belief in

696
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 4: the people's intent. I mean, we know that people broke

697
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 4: into the Capitol, We know that people did some bad things.

698
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 4: The question then becomes were they justified in doing that?

699
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 4: Or were they acting as terrorists?

700
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 2: Domestic terrorists because it goes back to was the election false, right,

701
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: and it was it stolen? Or was there freed someone

702
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: messing with it?

703
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 5: Right? Terrorists?

704
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 2: So I mean, but but we as individuals now face

705
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: this in so many avenues, so many moments in history

706
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: as we go along, Ben, you're talking about just like

707
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: when you get to the age of the internet and

708
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 2: you can read literally anything. We are now we're having

709
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: to make a choice to believe everything. There is no

710
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: ministry of truth. There is no like somebody who's telling

711
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: the you know, humanity or an uber historian who's like, ah, yes,

712
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: this is what this is the consensus we've all come

713
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: to about what has happened and what has not happened, things.

714
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 3: That are past, have passed or yet to come.

715
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 4: And there's no like way to you know, we're talking

716
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 4: about use of deep fake video for example, like what

717
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 4: to even believe with your eyes and how can we

718
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 4: get around that? There would have to be some sort

719
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 4: of watermark or way to authenticate, you know, to to

720
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 4: prove positive that what you're seeing is real footage. Such

721
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 4: things do not exist for text and facts, you know.

722
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, the only way that I will not assume something

723
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 3: is a deep fake is if I see the person

724
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: in the video choosing fire hydrants from a selection of

725
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 3: nine pictures, right, because robots can't do that.

726
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 4: But there's no way to attach any kind of authentication

727
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 4: methods to truth because it's so much more complex than that.

728
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 4: Like you can even say it, no, that's not a

729
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 4: lie and believe it. And if you believe it enough

730
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 4: and say it with enough authority, as far as you're concerned,

731
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 4: it's not a lie. I think there are even arguments

732
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 4: being made, you know, in terms of the charges against

733
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 4: former President Trump, that if he really believed the election

734
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 4: was stolen from him, then he didn't do anything wrong.

735
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 4: It's about the nature of belief and objective truth, and

736
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 4: it's becoming harder and harder to decide what is objectively.

737
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 3: True right the so called post truth world. Here's the

738
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 3: thing about the information age. Everybody got so excited, very

739
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 3: few people read the fine print. The reality is that

740
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 3: not all information is good, by which we mean not

741
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 3: all information is created equal. People have not really changed

742
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: in terms of motivation. I think that's what we're all

743
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: three talking about here. You can see concerted efforts to

744
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 3: rewrite history all around the world. Not just on the

745
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 3: macro level. It's not just Russian propaganda. It's not just

746
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 3: Ira and the KSA beefing over the history of Islam.

747
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 3: And it's not just America's selling movies every summer about

748
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 3: World War II. The micro level happens. You've seen it

749
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 3: with your loved ones. They're telling themselves a narrative of

750
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 3: the past. It's not even necessarily related to divisive political ideology.

751
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: They just maybe they have a different memory of who

752
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 3: broke the cookie jar in nineteen seventy two, Right, And

753
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 3: they are ten toes down on that opinion because to

754
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: them it is a fact and Uncle Roy is a flyer. Right,

755
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 3: couldn't be right?

756
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 5: This was Uncle Roy.

757
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 3: Uncle Roy is the guy who broke the cookie to

758
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 3: I don't know, poor family. I hope they work it

759
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 3: out so that leads us to the future. Right, And

760
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: we are on the cusp of witnessing I would pause

761
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 3: it unprecedented events in the attempt to rewrite history. More

762
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 3: and more people get their news from this global font

763
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 3: the Internet. It's the oasis in the desert, right, and

764
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 3: that means that there are tons of new tools that

765
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 3: can be leveraged and are being leveraged to control any

766
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,359
Speaker 3: even narrative. I mean, think about the show over vaccines.

767
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 3: It immediately became a thematic football from the big dogs

768
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 3: of world powers. Right did Russia, China and the US

769
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 3: when they made statements about other countries vaccination or COVID efforts?

770
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: How much of their motivation was purely well intentioned and

771
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 3: how much of their motivation was ulterior? Right, was propagandistic

772
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 3: or some sort of hearts and minds attack? Fortunately, we

773
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 3: have to ask those questions. And again we've got to think.

774
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 3: Local Florida just cracked down on how black history is

775
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 3: taught in public colleges and universities. And remember the academics

776
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 3: were always the first ones targeted, just like the priests

777
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 3: thousands of years back.

778
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 4: So yeah, let's take a minute to talk about this law.

779
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 4: I think it's a great example of what we're talking

780
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 4: about here. SB two sixty six forbids teachers to teach

781
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 4: that systematic racism is quote inherent in.

782
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 5: The institutions of the United States.

783
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 4: They also can't teach that it was designed to quote

784
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 4: maintain social, political, and economic inequities. Now this is interesting

785
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 4: to me because that is again an example of how

786
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 4: do you interpret like some people might argue that we've

787
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 4: gotten past that, that it is no longer that. Sure

788
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 4: it was established when this was a thing, and these

789
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 4: laws were written with these things in mind, but that

790
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 4: as a country we've moved past that we're living in

791
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 4: a post racial society. So you could argue from a

792
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 4: law making level that to teach that systematic racism is

793
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 4: inherent in the institutions of the United States is false

794
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 4: because that's making a judgment saying that we have failed

795
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 4: in trying to.

796
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 5: Shed these mistakes of the past.

797
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's well put. And again, of course people are

798
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 3: going to be sensitive about this because there is a

799
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 3: primal identification for some people that can feel like an

800
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 3: attack to tell ugly truth about history and less this

801
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 3: sound like partisan winging. Got to shout out these two

802
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: great historians who aree this article for the Conversation, professors

803
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 3: Rochelle and Davis and Eileen Kin. They said, look, we're professors.

804
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 3: We teach modern history of the Middle East and Eastern Europe,

805
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: so not even Florida. They're not even teaching Florida Floridian history.

806
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 3: They said, we know even democratically elected governments will suppress

807
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 3: histories of their own nations that don't fit their ideology totally. Yeah,

808
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 3: and they go on. It is very much worth reading,

809
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 3: you know, even if you don't live in Florida, because

810
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 3: the point they're making is control of the past has

811
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 3: never been the sole domain of dictatorships. It's not about

812
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 3: right or left ideologies. It never has been controlling the past.

813
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: Basically gas lighting the public to make them more docile.

814
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 3: It's an age old practice because it works just like

815
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 3: assassination or excuse me, targeted killing. Whatever the thing is now.

816
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 2: Guys, I'm jumping back to Max Fisher one more time.

817
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 2: He is saying the same thing talking about this is

818
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: what he's saying. I'm going to give you a quote

819
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 2: from him. The goals are sweeping to re engineer society,

820
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 2: starting at its most basic understanding of its collective heritage.

821
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: It's collective heritage, right, So it's exactly what you're talking about, Ben,

822
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: the idea of needing to have your history reflect in

823
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 2: the identity that you feel, reflect feeling of identity rather

824
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 2: than actual identity.

825
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 3: Right to include people. The American experiment has done something

826
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 3: quite impressive, and not a lot of other countries have

827
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,760
Speaker 3: been successful throughout history. In this maybe the Roman Empire,

828
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 3: maybe the Ottomans, but not really the United States. The

829
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 3: proposal on paper was you were unified not by your biology,

830
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 3: not by your geography necessarily, not by your religion, your creed, whatever.

831
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 3: You are instead unified by the concept of being part

832
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 3: of this story, this story called the United States. And

833
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 3: that's a tall order. It's pretty impressive. I don't know

834
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 3: if you could pull it off today, if i'm If

835
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 3: I'm being honest, it's.

836
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 2: More than a modest proposal, you know what I mean,

837
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 2: You're going to start talking about eating babies there.

838
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 3: I don't know if we're at that point. I hope not.

839
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 3: So there's another way to think about this. If you

840
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 3: are editing the past to control a populace, and if

841
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 3: governments and people are to arch degree just the stories

842
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: they tell themselves. And when you do this, you're not

843
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 3: killing a single person, you're killing an entire version of

844
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 3: the past, and you're replacing it with a doppelganger, right,

845
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: with a change link that is just so, And it's

846
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 3: usually going to be a story where in your group

847
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 3: for some reason looks like the hero. Why would you

848
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 3: do this? You do this to justify the current power structure,

849
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 3: or you do it to rationalize something you're about to

850
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 3: do or something.

851
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 5: You just did.

852
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 3: We blew up, yeah, we blew up. You know this

853
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 3: clearly civilian gathering and insert country here, but we did

854
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: it because of insert reasons.

855
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 4: Do you guys might if I read a quick quote

856
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 4: from a song that's just been basing my brain, please,

857
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 4: it's I think it's a Elvis Costello song is the

858
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 4: first track off of his nineteen eighty two album Imperial Bedroom.

859
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 5: It's called Beyond Belief.

860
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 4: And I just think this is some incredible wordplay, and

861
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 4: it is kind of sums up some of the stuff

862
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 4: to me, at least a little bit. History repeats, the

863
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 4: old conceits, the glib replies, the same defeats, keep your

864
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 4: finger on important issues with crocodile tears and a pocket

865
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 4: full of tissues. I'm just the oily slick on the

866
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 4: wind up world of the nervous tick in a very

867
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 4: fashionable hovel. It kind of makes me weep. It's so

868
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 4: good like the wordplay. Man, I was gonna tell you.

869
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 3: I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna be honest with you.

870
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 3: He's my second favorite Elvis, my first favorite el No

871
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 3: My first favorite Elvis is a guy in a remote

872
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 3: town in East Tennessee.

873
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 5: Cool.

874
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 3: They got weird names. But yeah, that's I think that's

875
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 3: quite apropos nol. I think that's a really good thing

876
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 3: for us to take with us because the results are in.

877
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: It is true, the democratization of information and technology, it

878
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 3: could have led to a better, more universally honest interpretation

879
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 3: of the past, but it didn't. There's a paradox. Feels

880
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 3: like there are more voices out there, but not maybe

881
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 3: not as many as we'd like to think. It's the

882
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 3: grocery store paradox. That's what I would call it. We

883
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 3: talked about it before. Right, you go to a grocery store.

884
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 3: You're in the cereal aisle. It looks like there are

885
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 3: thirty different kinds of cereal.

886
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 4: All the choices. We have, the choice information. We must

887
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 4: be smarter, right, Yeah, this is.

888
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 3: The reason why Matt says, I insist on pretending to

889
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 3: like Raisin Brand.

890
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 5: I love Raising Brand. Dude, are you serious? Out of town?

891
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 5: I love it?

892
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 4: Mean, guy, you chase it with some grape nuts?

893
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 5: Really?

894
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 2: Do you have a box of just the original r

895
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: B downstairs scoops? Yeah?

896
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 5: Is it two?

897
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 2: Scoops always scoops to scoop.

898
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 6: First of all, I want to I want a number.

899
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 6: I want to number you.

900
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: They show you on the box, there's a here's a scoop,

901
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: here's another.

902
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 3: B free. But the idea here, even though it seems

903
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 3: as small as your grocery store, those serial brands are

904
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 3: ultimately owned by a much smaller handful of holding companies.

905
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 3: And that's kind of what happens with the Internet. And

906
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: they keep those brands alive from the grocery store to

907
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 3: the Internet because they know you dig the illusion of choice.

908
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 3: People are sensitive to the stories told about themselves. To

909
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 3: your point, Matt, people want to feel that they are

910
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 3: choosing the correct narrative, that they are doing so for

911
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 3: objective reasons. History is not just riddled with conspiracy. It's

912
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 3: chock full of some profoundly disgusting truths, way more than

913
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 3: two scoops. And the question is similar to that old

914
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 3: story from Plato and the allegory of the Cave. It's

915
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 3: the choice in the matrix. Do you want to know

916
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 3: what really happened? Or do you prefer the tales told

917
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 3: to you by the authorities.

918
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 4: Guys, do you think there's a meme opportunity and like photoshopping,

919
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 4: like a little plastic container of playto but having it

920
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 4: have plato on it. I'm trying to think of that. That

921
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 4: has to be an additional twist. Enough.

922
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good starting point at point.

923
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, let us know what you think if there's a

924
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 4: good way to push that into the over the top

925
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 4: and the mimisphere.

926
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 3: And while you're thinking about that, let's end tonight's journey

927
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 3: with this. We talked a little bit about modern politics.

928
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 3: Modern politics are ephemeral, to be quite honest with you,

929
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 3: regardless of religion, regardless of creed, personal ideological leanings, and

930
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 3: so on, we have to ask ourselves, doesn't everyone at

931
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 3: least deserve a choice matrix style between the truth and

932
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 3: convenient lies. Shouldn't every human being, by the virtue of

933
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 3: their humanity, be able to choose for themselves between an

934
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 3: ugly truth and you know, a smoothed up deception.

935
00:54:59,040 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 5: I don't know.

936
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: It sounds nice, right, It sounds nice that we should

937
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: be able to have that. I just don't think I

938
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 2: don't think every and I don't think anybody's ever going

939
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 2: to get that.

940
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 6: I think we're no one you're going to agree on

941
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 6: what it is.

942
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh my god, you got to

943
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 2: get on the same page to figure that out.

944
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 4: First, totally, God, to weigh the things. I mean again,

945
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 4: that's just you started it off so beautifully.

946
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 5: Ben.

947
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 4: It's just the nature of discourse. It's the nature of

948
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 4: history as a storytelling mechanism. It is a storytelling enterprise.

949
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 3: You know.

950
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 4: It's not the same as science. You're not gathering data

951
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 4: per se. You're not gathering vials of things and analyzing them.

952
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 4: It's all about context. It's all about the eye of

953
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 4: the beholder.

954
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 3: It's I thought that was a Dungeons and Dragons reference

955
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 3: for just the second, nol and I want to thank

956
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 3: you for that.

957
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 5: I don't know what you're talking about.

958
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,760
Speaker 2: That is definitely a reference to a beholder.

959
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 6: Come come on, dude, the eye of the beholder. Yeah,

960
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 6: the single eyes is super cool.

961
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:05,280
Speaker 2: Of the beholder.

962
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 5: We did a super cool reference.

963
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 2: Good. It's got really powerful magic. Be careful of it.

964
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 2: Can I give a quote from a UC Berkeley's associate

965
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 2: professor named Andrew Little quote, We want to believe. We

966
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 2: want to believe that we are capable and decent, and

967
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: that our friends and our favorite relatives share the same

968
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 2: traits and that the groups we belong to are on

969
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 2: the right side of conflicts. And that's just that's the

970
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 2: quote here. So if there is a narrative being sold

971
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 2: to us, whether it's about the future, about what's happening

972
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: right now, or something that happened in the past, that

973
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 2: makes us feel all of those things, that we are decent,

974
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,760
Speaker 2: good people, that our friends, our groups are decent, good people,

975
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 2: and we didn't do anything bad in the past, we

976
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 2: are going to buy that story more often than not.

977
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 3: Sure, we want to build consensus. It's very difficult to

978
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 3: be the tenth person in the conversation who contradicts a

979
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 3: lie that everyone has chosen to believe. And that's that's

980
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 3: a question. You know that everyone is going to quarrel with.

981
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 3: We would love to hear your thoughts. We would love

982
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 3: to We'd love to get your take on this.

983
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 5: Folks.

984
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 3: Are we being overly alarmist about this idea of rewriting history?

985
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 3: Is it less possible now or is it more possible now?

986
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 3: What do you think? Let us know. We try to

987
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 3: be easy to find on the internets.

988
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 5: That's right.

989
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,959
Speaker 4: You can find us at the handle conspiracy stuff on YouTube, Facebook,

990
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 4: and Twitter, nay X. I don't know if I'm using

991
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 4: nay right there, but I'm gonna keep it up. I

992
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 4: sed toll call Twitter. You know what. I actually saw

993
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 4: a post form Elon must the other day where he

994
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 4: referred to it as x fka Twitter, So.

995
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I think I think it would be

996
00:57:59,160 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 3: x nay.

997
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 4: N twitterh yeah, yeah that I hate putting X first,

998
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 4: but it is what it is again, conspiracy stuff on

999
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 4: those platforms, Conspiracy stuff show on Instagram and TikTok, where

1000
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 4: we've got a ton of fun stuff popping pretty much

1001
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 4: a couple times a week, I think, right.

1002
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Did you guys see the rumor

1003
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: that Elon Musk prevented nuclear war? Yeah?

1004
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 3: He uh, that explained some of those texts he was

1005
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 3: sending me.

1006
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 2: No, but for real, the he allegedly turned off the

1007
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: Starlink system.

1008
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 4: Yes, oh but that but just as a petty like

1009
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 4: penny pinching maneuver, right, because he was supposed to give

1010
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 4: them like free internet, and then they were not paying

1011
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 4: him or something, and then he basically just said, you

1012
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 4: know what, we're cutting this off. And yes, it did

1013
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 4: lead to some issues on the battlefield, but he wasn't

1014
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:52,919
Speaker 4: doing it benevolently.

1015
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 3: He also had again recently spoken with Vlad.

1016
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so this is the week again. This is

1017
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: like the revisionist history thing that's occurring in real time

1018
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 2: at all times nowadays. Like the one story is that

1019
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 2: he got some intel from from Russia basically and prevented

1020
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 2: an attack on some military naval vessels.

1021
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 3: Russian naval vessels.

1022
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:26,439
Speaker 2: Yes, and that preventing that attack prevented tactical nukes from

1023
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 2: being deployed.

1024
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 7: That's a lot, it's crazy, but it also goes to

1025
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 7: show just how somebody doing something completely self serving and

1026
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 7: petty could ultimately lead to you know, if you're operating

1027
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 7: at such a high level, ultimately lead to something like that.

1028
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 5: And then it just becomes about the narrative twist.

1029
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 3: It's the butterfly effect, you know, because I used because

1030
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 3: I used Cheddar in my casadia. The red panda is

1031
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 3: no longer endangered. Whatever. It's a you could if then

1032
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 3: your way on all sa sorts of interesting limbs, not

1033
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 3: saying it's not true, but to your point, it's definitely

1034
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 3: an interpretation. What about your interpretation, folks? Why didn't give

1035
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 3: us a phone call?

1036
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 2: Our number is one eight three three, STDWYT and K.

1037
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 2: That's our number.

1038
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 5: Call it.

1039
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 2: It's a voicemail system. You've got three minutes. Say whatever

1040
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 2: you'd like, Give yourself a cool nickname, and let us

1041
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 2: know if we can use your name and message on

1042
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 2: the air. If you've got more to say than can

1043
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 2: fit in those three minutes, why not instead send us

1044
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: a good old fashioned email.

1045
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1046
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

1047
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:00,919
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1048
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.