WEBVTT - Dealing with Post-Weaning Depression w/ Alison Eakle & Emily Rodgers 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.440 Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:08.959 in partnership with I Heart Radio. I had a very 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:14.840 interesting relationship with breastfeeding. UM, I was incredibly lucky. I 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:19.680 had more milk than I could possibly have used. I 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.720 actually had my milk ducts and my armpits all filled up, 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.920 and I was I had like, you know, dinosaur eggs 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:34.920 sized like glands Emily's face And for everyone listening, I 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.320 have look, I have given Emily Rogers milk out to like, 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.520 if we can say this, I've given Emily Rogers milk 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:52.599 out to friends. That's how much she has. Hello, everybody, 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.560 Welcome back to Katie's Crib. I'm so excited about this 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:02.160 episode of Katie's Grip, which is postpartum depression that comes 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:07.360 around weening. I don't know why no one talks about this. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.160 I don't know why there's no warning signs. I don't 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.160 know why it happens the way it does. But I 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.800 have come across so many friends that whether they wean 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.360 at six months, three months, one month, one year, one 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.440 and a half years, whatever, they have a major hormonal 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:29.000 drop off and it is postpartum depression. And yet we 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.959 are not prepared for this area. So I have two 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.160 friends on the podcast today, Dear dear, dear, dear personal 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.000 friends of mine who also know each other because we 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:43.760 were the same mommy and me class. And the first 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.720 of this dynamic trio is Alison Acle. She is Shonda 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.680 Land's Chief Content Officer of TV and film. Listen to 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.320 that title. She joined Sean Lannon two thousand of their teams. 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.360 She's developed a number of drama and comedy projects for ABC, 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:00.559 including the series How To Get Away with the Murder 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.680 Station nineteen. She is also the co executive producer for 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:08.560 Bridgton and Inventing Anna. On a personal level, like Ruben, saying, 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.919 she also had a postpartum depression while weaning. We've got 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:17.320 Emily Rogers, who is a former corporate attorney turned stay 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:22.200 at home mom of two highly opinionated, excellent, incredible girls, 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.480 the older of which is in nursery school with my son. 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:29.960 She has experienced postpartum depression after weaning with her older daughter, Evie. 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.959 She is currently weaning her younger daughter, Audrey. She's originally 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.680 from Vancouver, Canada, and she now lives in Los Angeles 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:44.919 with her husband, daughters, and her cat. Welcome to Katie's crib. Oh, 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:51.440 and Allison lives with her cat, right your okay, thank god? Okay, 0:02:51.480 --> 0:03:00.280 I was the cat is here. The cats are year 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.760 my son. All he wants is a cat and a fish. 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.800 So I don't know, I think not, Yeah, that's not 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:11.800 a good duo, right, That's what I tell him. But 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.080 he doesn't really get it. He's just starting to understand that, 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.200 like when he eats beef or that's like like he's 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.680 asking weird questions. But anyway, let's get back to the 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.440 point of this podcast, which is I want to focus 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.839 on the period when you're breastfeeding and you're weaning off 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.320 of breastfeeding. And this is, like I said quickly in 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.400 the intro that for some reason, why the fucking hell 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:36.200 is nobody talking about this? Uh. Post weaning depression, according 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:39.320 to parents dot com, is a term used to describe 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.800 depression that can occur after a woman stops breastfeeding. Via 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.680 very Well Family dot com. Post weaning depression may occur 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.840 concurrently with postpartum depression, but it's a distinct experience. Most importantly, 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.960 post weaning depression is linked in time with the ending 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.880 of breastfeeding, whereas postpartum depression is linked with the birthing 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.920 of a baby. Okay, I'm going to shut up now, Allison. 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:09.520 Let's start with you. Yes, you breastfed your glorious son. 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.280 And when did you know? Baby? He is the greatest 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.280 king of all babies. I love him so much. When 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:24.520 did you know that it was time to wean? Well? 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.000 I don't think I did. I think this is why 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.719 this whole thing snuck up on me. And it's interesting 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.800 that it's it's called kind of post or weaning related 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.920 depression because it didn't manifest for me in any of 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.120 the ways that I classically understood what depression would look like. 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.839 So I feel like I was missing the signs. Shall 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.080 we say? For me? It was a raging dose of 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:50.240 anxiety is the best way, like a paralyzing dose of anxiety. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:52.640 And what had happened was I'll take it. He's so 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.719 Walt is his name. He's a little bit Chris Farley, 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:01.080 a little bit Philip Seymour Hoffman. He's a giant baby. 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:07.080 Only the Chief Shanda Land Content Officer would nail her 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:13.120 son like you have described your son is to pitch 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.680 like I'm like that, Oh my gosh, you've nailed it. Okay, okay, 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:24.360 so Walt is he's a big dude. He's not like, uh, 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.159 a little little big no. And look he was a 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:28.919 little baby was born. There was a lot of drama 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.159 in the hospital of like he wasn't eating, and we 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.440 get that's a whole another side note of it. But 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:37.200 I was very lucky he took to breastfeeding, but it 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.719 was never enough for the sensatiable beast of a baby, 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.279 so you always we were always supplementing with formula, so 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.320 it wasn't it wasn't odd. Around two and a half months, 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.200 I started tiptoeing back into the Shawna Land waters that 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.800 I'd missed so dearly, and Walt started doing some very 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.760 part time daycare and over the next two and a 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.080 half months take him to about age five months. I 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:58.359 thought I was just gonna be able to you know, 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.360 we're work from home. It's a pandemic to I'll we're 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.880 just start you know. I got vaccines while I was breastfeeding, 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.560 and I was like, this is great. All I want 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.400 is for my son to have all the vaccines because 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:09.839 I thought that that's what the science was communicating and 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:11.800 this is hugely important. I'm going to do this as 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:13.440 long as I can, and I can pump from home, 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:15.800 but then I forgot that the other side of work 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.520 from home and COVID is eighteen meetings back to back, right, 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.120 So I was not pumping as much as I should. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.279 And essentially, I think a little bit of like back 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:27.000 to work stress or pumping kind of scheduling issues turned 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.719 into my body starting to wean itself. So this is 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:31.920 a little different than I think, Like, well, my kids, one, 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.279 this feels about the right time. It was like my 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.280 body was cutting back. I was down to like at 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.520 best and making making like two to four ounces a day, right, 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:42.599 and I had a little bit of a stockpile, but 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.200 it was and I'm just hanging on for dear life. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.080 So i am just nothing's coming out. But I'm like pumping, 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:49.960 I'm doing the tease, I'm taking the pills and doing 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.680 the whole all the lactation help. Right. Oh, this like 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.880 breaks my heart. I'm only interjecting because I have to say, like, 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.320 I've had a lot of friends whose bodies just slowly 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.600 stopped either slowly stopped producing or just fully stopped producing. 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:12.040 And it was so terrifying. All of those feelings we 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.840 talk about feeling like I'm failing. I can't. And I 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:19.000 think there's so much triggering for motherhood around the ability 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.760 to feed or not feed your baby and how much 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.280 or how little, and you use that to like directly 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.720 associate with your value and how well you're doing. And 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.400 I think in Allison's case, probably when you were back 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.560 to work, like you felt like, well, I can at 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.400 least give him this, And now that's like falling off. 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.200 I mean, oh my god, I can't even imagine in 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:43.160 the vaccine again, I'm thinking, I'm I'm thinking I'm shielding 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.360 him from COVID, right, like, Okay, this is this is 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.000 like the mission here, right, So he's got it in 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.000 my head, no science to support it. I'm just like, 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:51.920 if he gets a little bit every day, it's like 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.280 a little bit of a vaccine whatever I was telling myself. 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.160 And look, we're in the middle as we record this, 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.040 we're in the middle of this like gigantic, terrifying formula 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.880 short of and I can't talk about triggering and paralyzing. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:04.320 I read those that news now and I'm like, I 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.120 don't know what I would have done. You know, seven 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.840 months ago, I have goose bumps all over my body. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.200 Oh my god, it's awful, and I feel like kind 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.000 of no one cares. But that's a side note. But 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.400 but like people are not giving it its due of 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.440 how insane this is. But that's what that's what happened 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.160 with me, was like my body was just like we've 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.240 reached the end of a journey. I just wasn't ready 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.720 to let go, not even for anything truly, just this 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.680 kind of very utilitarian thing where I thought I was 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.920 still giving him COVID vaccine vietname, which is so weird. 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:38.160 I know, no it's not, it's really it's really important, 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.000 and it was really I I felt that way for sure. 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.400 I felt that way totally about my breast milk and 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:47.280 getting vaccinated and feeling like I was doing my part 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.840 in this pandemic to try to protect my unvaccinated baby. 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:55.160 Like that was definitely a huge, a huge, huge thing. Okay, 0:08:55.200 --> 0:09:00.520 when did you start to realize that you were maybe 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:07.000 having disproportionate anxiety, that this wasn't um you were feeling 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.280 not your usual self, even though I mean, how could 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:15.040 you he had a baby five months earlier, but still right, 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.199 it's like, oh, I'm not I was not my zesta 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.079 usual self. For many reasons, but I think, look for me, 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.280 I've always lived my life with a bit of an 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:26.720 anxiety and worry. It's in producing. I think there's a 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.520 certain amount of help of it that helps you. Right. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.360 I feel like Bill Hater. So many people have spoken 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.400 to like how creatively anxiety can be a help, right. Yes, 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.120 it had passed, allowing me to um, to put drive 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.160 in my heart or allow me to anticipate problems. I 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.080 think the day I will never forget was I was 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.800 on our couch in the living room trying to compose 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.560 an email about a note that was not easy to give, 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.360 which in UM you know, working with writers, this is 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.839 something you do all the time. Right that you figure 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.600 it out, you move past it. And my husband just 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.280 looked at me at one point t J and was like, 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.920 you've been writing that email for four hours. And I 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.160 realized I had been sat in the same spot, my 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.760 knee vibrating on my laptop, trying to write the same 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.000 unal for four hours. And I don't think I even 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.600 understood what was happening. And it was him finally being 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:17.120 like worried about it. I think maybe two and a 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.120 half weeks prior to that, we had done our first 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.000 trip with Walt to Palm Springs with one of my 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.360 best friends and her husband and there two and a 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.160 half year at the time, and I remember thinking it 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.400 was one of the I hadn't like properly planned a 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.280 place to pump um, so I, you know, we're all 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.120 sharing this house and also kind of working from there, 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:36.200 and I just all of a sudden remember this like 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.800 strange feeling in my stomach of like I don't feel 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.520 like I have much. This would be so much fun, 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.839 and it is, but I have this like sort of 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:47.960 damocles hanging over my head. I don't know what's wrong. 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.280 Something is freaking me out. And it kind of cast 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:53.920 Paul on the triple a little because I just I 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.199 remember walk up kind of sunburned for the first time, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.559 and I maybe lost my mind. I was like, I've 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.800 ruined him and he'll never work out her And it 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.200 was such an outsized reaction and I could see it 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.480 a little bit. But as the next two and a 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.520 half weeks of my three week journey with this intense 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.920 anxiety and depression, now that I understand it, I don't 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.600 think I knew what was really coming and how bad 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.440 it would get because eventually, Yeah, by the time t 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.080 J caught me writing an email for four hours, I 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.680 had slowly stopped eating and slowly stopped sleeping. And it 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:26.920 was that was kind of like towards the end of 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.320 like finally recognizing like I have to do something really 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.400 drastic right now to like stop this and pull myself back. 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:38.439 Did you remember, aside from having just very disproportionate reactions 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.280 to like Walt having a really bad sunburn, or you 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.720 not being able to really a function Maybe you're really tired, 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.079 but like you were functioning at work and now all 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.760 of a sudden functioning is starting to be questionable. Do 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.560 you have any examples of like thoughts you were having 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.800 at the time. Oh my god, I'll never forget the 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.160 thought I had, which is I had remembered filling out 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:05.080 all of my pregnancy disability paperwork for when you file 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:07.120 with the State of California for your maternity leave and 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.880 all your benefits. You and I literally had this thought, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.520 which is so wild now, but I was like, I 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:14.920 think I'm gonna have to file for disability. I think 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.679 I can't work ever again. Like it was that extreme 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:19.760 where I was like, oh, I guess this is it, right, 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.200 my brain is broken. And I think for you think 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.160 that postpartum depression is going to look a certain way. Fuck, 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.560 everyone I know thinks that they've broken, that they're broken, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:34.360 and they're going to be insta like everyone well yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.760 yeah yeah. I was like, what else can I do? 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.079 I suppose, but it and it was such an intense 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.720 but I think that's the strange nature of this. It 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.199 was such an intense but casual thing. The other thing 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.600 that was happening is we were pulling out of Afghanistan. Um, 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.360 the US was leaving Afghanistan, and if you remember, it 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.680 was nothing but just intense footage at the airports of 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.760 like people hating their kids to soldiers being like, get 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.520 my baby at it. And I just remember that was 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.440 the other part is like, no humans should be spending 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.840 this much time scrolling through I don't know, Instagram reels 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.400 not even cool enough for TikTok alice an eagle. But 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.280 it was just like I think I sucked up my 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.240 algorithm for life. For life. My algorithm now is like 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:20.280 dead dark, get you a new name. We have to 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.960 get you a new Instagram and start over. Oh my god, 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.440 or be like how did I deal? With child asses 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.640 like bump bump bump, bom bomp op where they like 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:31.920 knock their heads in and I'm like their hands together. 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.520 I'm like, how did I get on this algorithm? I 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:36.760 think it's from the period I was waning, because I 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.560 think once the anxiety was rolling, I was just like, yeah, 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.120 I want to and did. There'd be those very traite 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.640 things of like your baby's only small for four years, 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:47.880 and then a little of that flooding could comes flooding 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.400 in of like the breastfeeding journeys ending for me, and 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.520 that's a big milestone. So I think the weird thing 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.120 about it was it would flip flop between intense and 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.520 same thought. I earned nothing saying that's terrible word, and 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.920 your fingering thought outsized reaction, right, it was like this intense, 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.560 outsized reaction that came to my brain in a very 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.199 casual manner, or it was sobbing for two hours at 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.920 videos of soldiers handing children or of civilians in Afghanistan 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.360 handing babies soldiers, and I'm like, this is not normal, 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.800 this is not usually my vibe um. And you know, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.440 then there would be on top of that, like the 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.400 panic of like and now I've wasted all this time 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.320 that I need because my work brain is going so 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:33.640 slowly that I have to now that's now that times 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.960 God that I needed this like extra buffer. So it's 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:37.720 sort of a compounding effect, is the best way I 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.160 can think of it. My last question for you and 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:41.720 then I need I want to hear Emily story two 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.320 is I know you were not sleeping at all. Your 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.920 anxiety was reaching so bad that I know you also 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.320 started getting two and you weren't eating. I remember this 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:54.400 because when we spoke, I was like, funk, we need 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.320 to get to be secure. Word for it spoke when 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.640 I called you sobbing on a FaceTime on your vacation, 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:10.640 Poor Katie lows Man, just the absolute go to parent moment. Look, 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.000 I have been on that I have been on your 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.840 side of that place as well, where I have reached 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.920 out and needed a FaceTime and some of the darkest 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.440 ship I've ever seen. And I took one look at 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:27.320 your face, which is that classic for people who are 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:33.040 listening you, Um, you are not recognizable as the person 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.000 I know. It's so fucked And but the other funked 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.680 up thing is you know it will like being on 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:40.640 the other side of it as I was when you 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.360 called me. I was like, you will be okay, and 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.240 you will get through it, and you will feel like 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.560 yourself again and you will enjoy like it's all going 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.360 to be okay. But that does not seem possible right now. 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.720 Like that just does not a possibility right now. M 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.920 What did you do with the is three weeks to 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:03.800 kind of get through it? I mean I leaned on 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.360 t J so much, um and and also, look, I'm 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.560 lucky I work at a really supportive place with bosses 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.160 who have not like they haven't seen this before, right, 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.400 bosses who have had women I think, accustomed to being 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.880 type A professionals dealing with different challenges that come in 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.560 all shapes and sizes, with the idea of new motherhood. Right. 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.360 So it's like Shonda Betsy, all of my colleagues, my team, 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.160 Annie Marko Fwong, everyone was just like always there to 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:32.520 help and probably could tell something was like a little off. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.960 I think I wound up realizing I'm masked better than 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.200 I thought I had. Honestly, like, I think what was 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.760 going on side my head was a lot worse than 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.040 what was presenting. So there'd be a little moments where 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:44.840 i'd let some pressure out where I would just say 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:46.720 to Betsy be like, look, Betsy, I don't know if 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:48.920 today's my best day. I think something's going on right 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:50.440 just so it's like okay, I can get it out 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.480 there for a moment. But I think there was just 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.480 this like power. I remember one meeting with a writer 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.600 of Zoom where I was I had a moment where 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.920 I was like, Okay, I'm outside of my body, watching 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.159 myself in this meeting. I'm not really here, but I 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.520 think it's going okay with that feeling. I know that feeling. 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.760 I know that feeling. Oh my god, We're like, oh interesting, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.600 Allison's having a meeting. Oh crazy. I remember having this. 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.880 I remember when I was like, oh, I'm not functioning anymore. 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.760 When I had UM, I had to do a voice 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:28.080 one line pick up in Vivo and I I play 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.960 I don't even remember the character's name, but I had 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.399 a role that i'd done pre pandemic, pre baby, and 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:35.480 they needed me to do one pickup line. And I 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:40.359 sobbed to my friend Jackie saying, I don't think I 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.439 can work for five minutes, Like I'm in big fat trouble. 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:45.600 I don't know if I can pretend for five minutes 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.320 like nothing's going on, just to record one line that 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.400 was like wow, what you got there or some ship 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.120 like that, and I was like, I am never been 0:17:55.160 --> 0:18:02.760 so scared the cuff right now? Yeah, okay, that's that's 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:04.720 you're the pro and that's why you're like, oh no, 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.760 you get to like a non functioning place is really scary. Yes, 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.600 But the thing that saved me was the after I 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.080 faced time with you and you let me sob I 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.440 knocked myself out with like a bend and drill right 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.000 because I slept, took the baby, the baby shifts that night, 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.280 and I never looked back to breastfeeding. It was over. 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.399 It was done. I barely had anything left. I remembered 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.479 your cabbage leaf advice from an earlier season one Kati's 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.880 crib o g But it was over. I was done, 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.920 And I remember it was the same weekend. I just 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.040 like slept, and then we had a weekend and Walt 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.600 started solids and I was like, goodbye breastfeeding, And by 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.399 Sunday night, I was myself again. And it was the 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:45.320 most bizarre experience and I feel very lucky that it 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.360 wasn't that it wasn't a longer drawn out experience, but 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:52.520 that was how instantaneous once I let go. And I 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.280 get why people sometimes don't advocate for this, because everyone's like, no, 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.439 we should breastfeed as long as again it's great, but like, 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.280 I just had to let it go and it was done, 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.320 it was over. I remember when we were face timing 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.240 and you were at your one of your lowest bottoming 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.199 out moments of and I was getting to you. I 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:11.520 know we had been texting and stuff like that, but 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.840 once you face time to me and you had been 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.720 going through three weeks to four weeks of no sleep, 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:22.840 anxiety attacks, not eating, stressing beyond all belief like, and 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.440 I remember just being like in my head, oh god, 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.600 I hope she just stops like it's not because at 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.920 some point what I always found interesting too. And then Emily, 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:33.879 I have to your story. But I always thought it 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.520 was really interesting when someone was like, whenever you decide 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.880 or your body decides that it's time, and and hopefully 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.720 you don't have this kind of reaction, you get this 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.439 opportunity where you have to find other ways to connect 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:51.280 to your child. Um, because I personally realized that I 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.280 spent so much time breastfeeding and sort of taking for 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:57.160 granted like that's my time with the baby, but I'm 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:01.919 really looking at my phone. Are you looking at Instagram 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.320 reels or like answering emails and ship like that, And 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.040 I'm not, And I'm just saying like, well, this is 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.200 my time with the baby, but like, is it really 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:14.960 And then I remember when I weaned. I'll be like, oh, 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:19.520 it's really important that I have other ways to calm him, 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.720 because I also used breastfeeding as like my way to like, 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:25.720 you know, make him feel comfort, make him feel this, 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:27.040 make it feel that, and so it's just like an 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.439 interesting thing for anyone listening, like it's I try to 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.080 reframe it in my mind as like the opportunity to 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:38.200 learn how to comfort and mother in like other ways. Anyway, 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.600 I will remember that FaceTime, and I honestly let it 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:44.879 be known, said I was so honored to be on 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:48.840 the other side of that call, and I I truly was. 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.119 I was so so so honored to be on the 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.840 other side of that call. And I really in my 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:58.200 heart was like, she needs sleep. Take whatever. Fucking Bena 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.520 Jules an X ambience. If you got on hand, you're 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.480 not taking care of the baby this weekend. Eat anything 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:17.840 and everything, please God, but you have to sleep. Emily 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:25.440 has to UM. Beautiful girls and very different. They're very different. 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:29.639 I'm thinking about that now. UM. And what's crazy about 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.879 me and Emily's journey is that we were pregnant with 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.679 both of our kids at the same time. It's just 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.720 sucking awesome. So I want to talk to you about 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.960 your experience with UM ev right now, because I know 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:44.879 you're in the midst of it with Audrey. I'm curious 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:46.880 how it's going because I'm still happening. But tell me 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:51.720 about your breastfeeding journey with Evie and when you knew, 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.480 similarly how we started with Alison, how you knew it 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.440 was time to wean for you. I had a very 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:04.600 interesting relationship breastfeeding UM. I was incredibly lucky. I had 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:11.480