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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome to the Houndations podcast. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Tony Peterson, and today's episode is all about keeping your

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Speaker 1: dog honest and keeping yourself honest during training sessions. This episode,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it might be a tough pill to

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Speaker 1: swallow for some folks, but that's okay. Dog training, or

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Speaker 1: I guess I probably should say like developing a dog.

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Speaker 1: So it's not a total embarrassment at home or in

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Speaker 1: the field, just a long game task that can include

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Speaker 1: some shortcuts. It can include some methods that will sort

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Speaker 1: of mass greater issues, but generally both those and shortcuts

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Speaker 1: will come back to haunt you at some point in

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Speaker 1: the dog's life. There's just a process to this stuff,

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Speaker 1: which is ripe with pitfalls. But we should be self

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Speaker 1: aware enough to not only keep our dogs honest, but

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Speaker 1: keep ourselves honest. So buckle up because that's what I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about right now. I've had the good four

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Speaker 1: to interview dozens and dozens of professional dog trainers in

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Speaker 1: my career, and I'm truly good friends with some of them.

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Speaker 1: It's always interesting how different trainers approach the same problems

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Speaker 1: with dogs. Some trainers you know, often older trainers or

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Speaker 1: young ones with something to prove or a program to sell.

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Speaker 1: They kind of often have like very straightforward answers to questions.

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Speaker 1: If you ask them how to get a dog to heal,

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Speaker 1: they'll launch into a point A to B monologue on

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Speaker 1: the exact steps to take. There are usually a few

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Speaker 1: false starts and caveats, but mostly the road is a

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Speaker 1: straight one with clear sight lines for miles. This is

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Speaker 1: often great general advice, but general doesn't always apply to

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Speaker 1: individual dogs. Other trainers are more philosophical, and they're much

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Speaker 1: harder to interview. They don't like pigeonholing dogs or putting

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Speaker 1: up too many guardrails to their advice because they know

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Speaker 1: that no matter what, dogs are individuals dog owners two,

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Speaker 1: and the influence they have on dogs is huge and

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Speaker 1: in the realm of training often not great. The more

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Speaker 1: philosophical trainers either haven't learned to tune out the constant

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Speaker 1: contradictory thoughts in sort of a survival mode thing, or

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Speaker 1: they just don't want to. They want to consider the

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Speaker 1: dog as something more and the relationship with them as

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Speaker 1: something that can't be broken down into easy steps like

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Speaker 1: in a training manual. Now both styles, you know they're

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Speaker 1: right and I guess that most trainers engage in both

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Speaker 1: more than they let on. Now. I interviewed Ronnie Smith

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Speaker 1: one time, who owned Smith Kennel's down in Oklahoma. Ronnie

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Speaker 1: comes from dog Training Royalty, and there are very few

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Speaker 1: trainers who can walk the aisles of a show and

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Speaker 1: command the respect that he can. Now, at one point

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Speaker 1: in one of our conversations, Ronnie brought up the concept

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Speaker 1: of an honest dog. Now. I thought it was strange

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Speaker 1: at first, because it's not a natural impulse for me

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Speaker 1: to think of a dog as a liar. But that's

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Speaker 1: because in my head, I have a vision of dogs

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Speaker 1: that doesn't jive with the reality of a once wild

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Speaker 1: canine jockeying for position in a pack, you know, an

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Speaker 1: animal loaded with genetic instructions, coded for NonStop pursuit of resources.

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Speaker 1: But Smith's message wasn't that dogs are liars and his

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Speaker 1: job is, you know, as a trainer, has to call

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Speaker 1: them out. It was that if a dog shows you something,

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Speaker 1: it's generally telling you the truth with that action. What

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Speaker 1: he meant was that if you ask your dog to

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Speaker 1: do something and it doesn't understand what you're asking, it's

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Speaker 1: going to show you that and it might not be

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Speaker 1: through simply not completing the task correctly. It might look

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Speaker 1: you in the eyes while you're yelling and just stare

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Speaker 1: because it can't say, hey, dipshit, I'm lost here. I

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Speaker 1: don't speak English and we just started this drill. And

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Speaker 1: the louder you get, the more confused I get. Okay.

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Speaker 1: In relationships, communication is key, and if one side isn't

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Speaker 1: getting the messaging, the whole thing breaks down. This happens

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Speaker 1: in marriage, it happens with friends, it happens with coworkers,

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Speaker 1: it happens with our dogs. The communication that tethers us

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Speaker 1: together is predicated on honesty. I shouldn't have to say that,

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Speaker 1: but it demands honesty because there's no long term tethering

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Speaker 1: without it. The connective tissue is just too weak. What

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Speaker 1: does this have to do with dog training? Quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: You want to know when your dog is being honest

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Speaker 1: about something, and you want to know what to do

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Speaker 1: about it. When your dog is being honest about something,

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Speaker 1: you also want to know when your dog is trying

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Speaker 1: to get away with something, which isn't necessarily dishonest, but

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Speaker 1: it kind of is, and it's just sort of the

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Speaker 1: nature of life. We look for shortcuts everywhere, so do dogs.

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Speaker 1: I had a conversation recently with a fellow who works

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Speaker 1: for FHF Gear here about his puppy, and we got

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Speaker 1: on the topic of slippery slopes in dog training. He

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Speaker 1: mentioned his dog loves retrieving more than anything in the

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Speaker 1: world except food, so he has that reward lever to

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Speaker 1: pull with his dog anytime he wants. Now, he's one

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Speaker 1: of the people I love to work with on their

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Speaker 1: dogs because he's invested in a long game. He wants

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Speaker 1: an amazing dog, but is convinced he's going to make

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Speaker 1: too many mistakes and ruin it. Look overthinking is a bitch,

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Speaker 1: but it's about a billion times better than underthinking. I

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Speaker 1: am confident his dog will be a really, really good

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Speaker 1: hunter and general pet. We talked about a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: but got on a topic of retrieving and how to

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Speaker 1: keep a dog from taking shortcuts. The easiest one that

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Speaker 1: I can think of is a dog that doesn't delivered

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Speaker 1: a hand training that you like, actually teaching you how

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Speaker 1: to train that. That's fodder for another podcast, which I'll

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Speaker 1: probably get into this summer, but for now, a dog

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Speaker 1: that brings you a bumper or a bird or whatever

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Speaker 1: should deliver it to your hand. If it doesn't, there's

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Speaker 1: a break in the chain that will separate further over time.

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Speaker 1: What I mean by that is that the dog doesn't

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Speaker 1: naturally want to bring you a bumper, Sit down, hold

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Speaker 1: it for an unknown amount of time, and then let

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Speaker 1: you gently take it from its mouth when you're good

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Speaker 1: and ready. Dogs aren't super keen on working on someone

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Speaker 1: else's schedule, but to be fair, neither are humans. You

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Speaker 1: might have a dog that will follow through with a

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Speaker 1: perfect retrieve, you know, steadiness at the beginning, a straight

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Speaker 1: line to the bumper, sprint back, heel up, hold and wait.

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Speaker 1: A dog that can do that in rain or shine,

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Speaker 1: in the backyard or at the park with people everywhere

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Speaker 1: is a dog that knows his job, and he's willing

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Speaker 1: to do it for the reward of another retrieve. Simple stuff. Until,

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, instead of bringing the usual bumper to

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Speaker 1: the park, someone grabs a chucket with a tennis ball

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Speaker 1: and wings it out there. Now the game's changed. Now

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Speaker 1: it has become more fun because there are fewer rules.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe the rules are the same, but just by

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Speaker 1: changing the object he's retrieving, it's not quite the same.

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Speaker 1: So the dog comes back and drops the ball at

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Speaker 1: your feet. This is a dog being honest about not

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Speaker 1: knowing what he can get away with right now. It's

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Speaker 1: probably not even a conscious decision, but that doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Now he's offered up different behavior. He's taken a little shortcut,

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Speaker 1: and if you scoop that ball up with the thrower

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Speaker 1: and you'll wing it across that soccer field again, you've

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Speaker 1: delivered a new message to him. The usual pain in

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Speaker 1: the ass steps don't apply for this thing. This is

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Speaker 1: the first step to unraveling a skill you work so

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Speaker 1: hard to develop. And you might think, well, who cares.

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Speaker 1: The dog is having fun and getting exercise and it

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Speaker 1: still delivers the bumper to hand. That's great, But that

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Speaker 1: bumper isn't going to keep ending up in your hand.

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Speaker 1: If you keep letting him drop that ball at your feet.

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Speaker 1: It's only a matter of time before he tries that

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Speaker 1: with other objects. And why wouldn't he. He wants the

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Speaker 1: quickest route to more retrieves while following the fewest rules.

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Speaker 1: And maybe if you just let that slide with the

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Speaker 1: tennis ball, you'll realize on the opening day of pheasant

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Speaker 1: season that when a rooster hits the ground, you're dealing

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Speaker 1: with another kind of object, another object for him to

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Speaker 1: take the same kind of shortcut with. And sometimes those

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Speaker 1: wily Chinese chickens have a lot of life left in them,

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Speaker 1: and they run away after being dropped at your feet.

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Speaker 1: And if you think your hunting buddies will let you

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Speaker 1: forget about that, you're wrong to trust me. You want

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Speaker 1: your dog to offer up that behavior with his retrieves

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Speaker 1: every single time, on the promise that if he gets

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Speaker 1: it right, there's a pretty good chance he'll get to

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Speaker 1: do it again. If you can put a dog in

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Speaker 1: control of whether they get a reward, they'll be more

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Speaker 1: honest with you. Communication is a two way street, though,

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Speaker 1: and it's up to us to be honest as well.

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Speaker 1: I think the easiest way for us to get into

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Speaker 1: trouble here is what I talked about a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, about consistency and training and the discipline to

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Speaker 1: ensure you and your dog get the reps in. But

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Speaker 1: this also applies to things like e collor usage. There

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Speaker 1: is no promise of a shortcut in dog training, quite

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Speaker 1: like an e caller. Now. They are amazing tools when

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Speaker 1: used correctly, but not so amazing when they aren't, the

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Speaker 1: most common problem with them is that folks incorporate them

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Speaker 1: way too quickly into a young dog's life. Now, to

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Speaker 1: be fair, this often happens when a puppy hits the

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Speaker 1: teenager tiny velociraptor stage, where they are a lot to handle.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're full of energy and short on brains,

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Speaker 1: and they do almost everything at warp speed, including everything

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Speaker 1: you don't want them to do. The impulse, and it's

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Speaker 1: a natural one is to get them under control, and

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Speaker 1: there is a tool that promises that control, you know,

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Speaker 1: the e caller. After all, the whole point of them,

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Speaker 1: at least when they were first invented, was to deliver

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Speaker 1: a punishment strong enough to deter whatever behavior was happening.

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Speaker 1: They've morphed into a long range communication device now, which

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Speaker 1: is great, but they are also built to be able

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Speaker 1: to deliver that correction. But when you take a dog

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Speaker 1: that doesn't really know anything and is functionally like a child,

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Speaker 1: and then deliver a long range punishment for behavior that

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Speaker 1: young dogs are going to do because they are energetic idiots,

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Speaker 1: you're saying, I don't have the patience to do this right,

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Speaker 1: or I don't understand how to get you to deliver

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Speaker 1: the right behaviors to me. But now the threat of

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Speaker 1: force is there, and you can take a dog that

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Speaker 1: would eventually want to give you the right behavior and

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Speaker 1: instead we'll do it just out of fear. And fear

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Speaker 1: is a breeding ground for shortcuts, which a lot of

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Speaker 1: people learn the moment they realize their dog is collar

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Speaker 1: wise and for whatever reason, the collar isn't handy. Now

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Speaker 1: is there a time and a place for you callers?

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Speaker 1: You bet there is, but it's rarely when the dog

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Speaker 1: is still super young and just learning how to be

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Speaker 1: a dog in your world with your rules. When a

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Speaker 1: dog knows what it is and what it's supposed to do,

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Speaker 1: then an e caller can serve as a backstop for

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Speaker 1: keeping those behaviors sharp and allowing you to ask so

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Speaker 1: much more of them from farther away than your voice

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Speaker 1: could carry. Now, we have to be honest with ourselves

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Speaker 1: about the process of taking a dog from a lovable,

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Speaker 1: idiot puppy to something that won't embarrass you no matter

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Speaker 1: where you take it. So let's look at this in

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Speaker 1: another way. Let's say you're one year old high drive

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Speaker 1: setter has been in a crate for nine hours while

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Speaker 1: you worked, You get home and you decide it's a

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Speaker 1: good day to work on steadiness drills. But you only

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Speaker 1: have twenty minutes before you have to go pick the

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Speaker 1: kids up at choir and take them to swim lessons

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Speaker 1: at the Why so you let Fido out, load him

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Speaker 1: in the truck and head to the baseball field down

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Speaker 1: the road. Now, when you let him out of your truck,

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Speaker 1: you yell at him for five minutes as he runs

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Speaker 1: full boar and circles and sniffs everything interesting and pisses

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Speaker 1: on the fences in three spots and generally ignores you.

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Speaker 1: Now your anger rises. The training session either doesn't happen

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Speaker 1: or it happens, and you think your dog will always

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Speaker 1: be that way. But what that dog is showing you

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Speaker 1: is that you bought a high drive, high horsepower animal

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Speaker 1: bread to work, and you locked him in a tiny

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Speaker 1: cage for a whole day and then instantly asked him

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Speaker 1: to perform once he had a little bit of freedom. Now,

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Speaker 1: a five year old dog in that situation, maybe, But

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Speaker 1: is that fair to a dog that's just learning the ropes?

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Speaker 1: Probably not. We can't avoid putting them in a crate

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Speaker 1: when they are a certain age, and sometimes any age,

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Speaker 1: But we also can be more honest about what we

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Speaker 1: ask of our dogs. Now, would you expect a first

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Speaker 1: grader to be as attentive the first minute of recess

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Speaker 1: as he or she would be during the first minute

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Speaker 1: of the second class of the day. What about on

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Speaker 1: a random Tuesday morning versus the Friday before Christmas? Break

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Speaker 1: Dog training used to be a matter of forcing your

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Speaker 1: will on them until they complied, but back then they

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Speaker 1: were viewed as just kind of a living tool. Now

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Speaker 1: decades later, we know better and should at least consider

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Speaker 1: that maybe we aren't being honest with their situation while

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Speaker 1: trying to make them adhere to rules we create that

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Speaker 1: don't take into consideration their nature or their day to

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Speaker 1: day circumstances. In the fact that we often ask more

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Speaker 1: than they can deliver at any given point, we take

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Speaker 1: their reactions as proof that they need more force, or

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Speaker 1: they need the guidance of a pro or we just

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Speaker 1: have a lost cause that is a lovable enough idiot

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Speaker 1: but will never be truly well behaved. But the truth

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Speaker 1: is that just about any dog out there, even the

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Speaker 1: low bandwidth adults who just weren't blessed with much in

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Speaker 1: the genetics category, can be pretty dang good. We just

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Speaker 1: need to be honest about what we're working with and

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Speaker 1: plug that into a system that will help them work.

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Speaker 1: All the same goes for high drive well bred dogs too.

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Speaker 1: By the way, these dogs might breeze through almost anything

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Speaker 1: you ask them, but after a short while start to

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Speaker 1: deviate from the plan, they might just be bored. And

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Speaker 1: while it's important to keep them on task and get

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Speaker 1: those reps in, you might have to change up your

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Speaker 1: training staturgy to count for this. This is also prime

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Speaker 1: time to talk about our expectations with our dogs and

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Speaker 1: how we often try to do the same thing with

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Speaker 1: a new dog that worked with the old one. I

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Speaker 1: did this with my pup, Sadie, but she's nothing like

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Speaker 1: my older dog Luna. Sure, they both have pretty good

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Speaker 1: blood and they love to retrieve and work, but Sadie

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Speaker 1: just needed so much softer of an approach, and she

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Speaker 1: needed so much more reassurance. Luna just never needed that.

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Speaker 1: She kind of just bowled her way through everything. She

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Speaker 1: wanted direct communication because all she cared about was picking

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Speaker 1: up the bumper or finding the grouse. Sadie wanted me

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Speaker 1: to explain everything and give her the chance to get

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Speaker 1: over whatever fears were rattling around in her smooth brain,

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Speaker 1: while Luna was just not scared of anything. So to

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Speaker 1: train my puppy the way that I trained Luna would

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Speaker 1: have been a disaster. And I know this because I tried.

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Speaker 1: But Sadie told me flat out that she needed something different.

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Speaker 1: The easiest thing for me to do, though, was to

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Speaker 1: default to the process that most recently worked for me

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Speaker 1: in a different dog. But it wasn't the same dog,

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Speaker 1: and honestly, I wasn't the same trainer, even though I

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Speaker 1: kind of tried to be. Now, I guess to tie

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Speaker 1: a bow on this one, I should end on this note.

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Speaker 1: Nothing I've said here is meant to be permission to

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Speaker 1: just phone it in or lower your standards so much

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Speaker 1: that the dog can't help but succeed. Our dogs need

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Speaker 1: to be challenged. They need to have jobs. They are

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Speaker 1: primed to learn. They want to learn with you from you.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they necessarily choose to teach us anything,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't change the fact that they do, in fact,

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Speaker 1: teach us a lot. They show us how they need

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Speaker 1: to be taught, in what ways in which they'll test

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Speaker 1: our boundaries to see if they can lean a little

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Speaker 1: more into their nature and a little further away from

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Speaker 1: the rules we set for them. They'll tell us when

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Speaker 1: they just don't understand something, but it's on us to

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Speaker 1: listen to them and to decide if they're being honest

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Speaker 1: or they're just looking for a way to get that

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Speaker 1: next retrieve to happen a couple seconds faster. They'll tell

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Speaker 1: us when they need a couple of minutes to run

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Speaker 1: around and sniff before they can settle into training mode,

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Speaker 1: or when the time comes in their life where they

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Speaker 1: can tamp that urge down and show up for the job,

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Speaker 1: no matter how many hours they've been cooped up, or

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Speaker 1: how much they want to stretch their legs and go

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Speaker 1: full greyhound for a little while. I think that a

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Speaker 1: lot of us want that point a to be dog

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Speaker 1: training advice, because that's intuitive and it's easy to understand.

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Speaker 1: It answers a question. But there is none of that

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Speaker 1: without the other, more philosophical side, because dogs aren't machines,

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Speaker 1: and neither are we. There are millions of inputs and

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Speaker 1: a million distractions, and there's a whole bunch of intangibles

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Speaker 1: that can flavor any of the interactions we have with them.

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Speaker 1: The more we understand and acknowledge that and work to

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Speaker 1: be honest about the day to day stuff while sticking

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Speaker 1: to that bigger picture plan, the more they'll learn to

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Speaker 1: be honest with us for no other reason. Then that

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Speaker 1: results in them being able to do more of what

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Speaker 1: they love with the person they love more than anything.

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Speaker 1: I think that's pretty damn cool, honestly, So think about that.

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Speaker 1: Think about coming back in two weeks because I'm going

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Speaker 1: to talk about why we should all try to understand

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Speaker 1: pack animals and pack animal behavior so that we can

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Speaker 1: just better understand our dogs and how we can work

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Speaker 1: with them. That's it. I'm Tony Peterson and this has

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Speaker 1: been The Houndation's podcast. Thank you so much for listening

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Speaker 1: and for all of your support. We truly appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Here at Meat Eater. All of us do without you, guys,

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Speaker 1: we don't have anything, So thank you for showing up

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Speaker 1: for us. If you need some more dog training content,

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Speaker 1: or you want to watch some hunting videos, some cool

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Speaker 1: adventure stuff, you want to listen to some other podcasts,

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Speaker 1: maybe get some wisdom from Brent Reeves over on This

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Speaker 1: Country Life whatever. We drop so much content every week

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Speaker 1: at the Meat eater dot com. You gotta check it out.

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Speaker 1: Head on over there, recipes, articles, podcasts, videos on down

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Speaker 1: the line. Go check it out, and again, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much