1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. You're not going to 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: stuff I've ever told your production II Radio. So it 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: are continued really unplanned streak of horror movies that involved 4 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: dancing as promised. Today we're talking about Black Swan from 5 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: two thousand ten. And yeah, we are doing a bit 6 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: more movies than we normally do this month. But it's 7 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: just because we're such horror movie buffs. There's sobody to 8 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: talk about. And I do think that a lot of times. 9 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: As I said that, the themes are really interesting and 10 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about what it is we're afraid of, and 11 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to women. I saw this movie 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: in theaters in two thousands and when it came out, 13 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: and this was back when the theater near I was 14 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: in College College UM, in the theater near me. Every Friday, 15 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: my roommate and I would go and the tickets if 16 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: your student costs two dollars. So we just would see 17 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,199 Speaker 1: all kinds of movies all the time, and we would 18 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: do double features. I saw this and King Speech the 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: same night, and then I will talk about it as 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: we go through. But I have some very funny memories 21 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: of seeing this in theaters for the first time. Because 22 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: I think the crowd was a bit so it was 23 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: nominated for a bunch of awards, um so I think 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: it was a lot of older folks who were not 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: anticipating the type of movie it was. Yeah, that was unexpected. 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: Their reactions were very, very funny, particularly to one scene 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of, right, But this was probably one of 28 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: the first movies I watched before, like I had started 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: on the podcast, and before we you know, one day 30 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: would start our feminist movie Friday, and like me and 31 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: my roommate my friend, we just sat and discussed it, 32 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: like what does it mean? What does this say? And 33 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: what about this? And what are we saying about women 34 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: about here? And it was interesting a lot of the 35 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: different takes that we got. And then recently it's been 36 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: on my mind because a friend of mine said she 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: had watched a YouTube video about like the dangers of perfectionism, 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: which we've talked about and particularly for women, and it 39 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: used black Swan as kind of this academic example of 40 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: breaking down like look how deadly this is or can 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: be and speaking of a quick sugar warning, we are 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: going to be talking about mental illness, abuse, death, potential suicide. 43 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, but we're not gonna go to in depth 44 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 1: into any of that stuff. I know I've told this 45 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: story before, but this as a college student. After I 46 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: saw this movie first six stream I ever had me 47 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: like Cunes and Joseph Cordon love it like I don't 48 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: know why he showed up. He was not in Black Swan. No, No, 49 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: I don't know why he was or I don't think 50 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: I've seen him in anything. Just like it, lingering, waiting, um, 51 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: just hanging out. Yeah. And then I went as Nina 52 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: Sayers now a Portman's character to a Halloween party, um, 53 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: years and years ago, and it was a pretty i 54 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: have to say red costume. It was one of my 55 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: first four days into making something and I really liked 56 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: how I turned out. I still have it back here. Yeah, 57 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 1: I really liked it. I also have Pete jacket for 58 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: the Black Swan one. Okay okay, yeah, like the Ballerina 59 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: the makeup. That eye makeup was so cool. Um shout 60 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: out to my friend Katie. Also, at the time, I 61 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: didn't realize that Sebastian stand was in this, and that's 62 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: only been a recent discovery for me. But he is 63 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: in this, Yes he is for blank second, yes, very 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: quick but he is there, and every time I see 65 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: it it kind of throws me. I don't know why. 66 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, right, so this is my first time 67 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: watching it. I've never watched it. I've never really been 68 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: interested in it. I guess there's also questions of like, 69 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: and we'll talk all about this later, but yeah, there's 70 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: a lot of things like huh okay. I also have 71 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: a strong feeling about Aeronovski in general, so it's like why. 72 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, interesting to watch for sure, And because I've 73 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: known about it too long, I think nothing surprised me. 74 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: I didn't. I mean, I didn't realize have been that long. Yeah, wow, 75 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: that's eleven years. M them and them young selves. Not 76 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: like we were still married to the ballet dancer though, right, 77 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: that's where she met her husband. I believe on this, 78 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: I have no idea. I'm sure. Yeah, I think he's 79 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: a ballet answer and they've been together since Black Swan. Huh. Right, 80 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: there you go, there you go random? All right, So 81 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: let's begin with the movie. Yeah. Black Swan is a 82 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: two thousand ten psychological horror movie directed by Darren Aronofski. 83 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: It followed Was I Repressed, Timid Ballet Dancer Nina Sayers 84 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: played by Nedley Portman. Sayers is a perfectionist, constantly pushing 85 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: herself to be perfect in her dance. She lives with 86 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: a very controlling and infantilizing mother who was a bellowing 87 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: herself until she had to stop because she had gotten 88 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: pregnant with Nina. Yes, the ballet company Nina dances for 89 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: announces the retirement of their premium Ballerina Beth McIntyre played 90 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: by Buanona writer Um, and that their new show is 91 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: going to be Swan Lake, so they hold auditions for 92 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: the lead roles, roles that require the dancer um to 93 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: embody both the innocent White Swan and her evil twin, 94 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: the Black Swan, As the artistic director suspects. Nina nails 95 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: the White Swan, but dancing as the Black Swan is 96 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: a real struggle for her Um, and just as she 97 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: is dancing the difficult coda for the Black Swan, her 98 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: concentration is broken when a new dancer from the West 99 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: Coast named Lily played by Mila Kunas loudly enters and 100 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: Nina's stumbles and doesn't finish. And that is the key. 101 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: Remember this, by the way, I didn't realize what No, 102 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: no writer was in this at all, and I was like, oh, wow, 103 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: there is. I didn't I mention her. That's when you 104 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: were like, oh, I've never seen that. I was like, 105 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: what when we were talking about because that's kind of 106 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: the theme of, you know, dying to be young that 107 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: we talked about this whole thing, because it's implied that 108 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: they have a conversation the other dancers, and it's very 109 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: implied that she's being forced to retire because she's older, right, 110 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: because that her too old. So the next day and 111 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: Nina goes to ask the directive for the part, and 112 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: this is after she's still some things from from the 113 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: writer's character to try to become more like her, which 114 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: says a lot, and he confirms that she is the 115 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: perfect casting for the white Swan, but that he doesn't 116 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: think she can dance the Black Swan to Nina relents 117 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: about to leave when the director asks her why she 118 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: got all alled up and that's what was all the 119 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: fights she was going to put into it. When he 120 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: forcibly kisses her, she bites him and quickly walks away. 121 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: The director is surprised by her actions, thinking her incapable 122 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: of doing something so mean and forceful. Nina is surprised 123 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: to learn she has been cast in the lead roles, 124 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: and the director tells her he wants to see more 125 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: of that bite. Yeah, definitely a lot of feelings in 126 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: this movie. So Nina attends a gala in her honor. 127 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: She has to schmooz and show off and pretend to 128 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: be the lead wearing all white to get donors excited 129 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: and willing to give them more money. When she is 130 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: in the bathroom, she picks up something protruding near her nail, 131 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,239 Speaker 1: and it's once again interrupted by Lily, dressed in all black, 132 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: who was much more free and open and flirty. She 133 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: tries to convince Nina to stay and talk to her, 134 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: but Nina leaves. Later that night, she and the director 135 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: run into Beth, who was furious at being forced out 136 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: of the company. She accuses Nina of sucking his cock 137 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: to get this role, and Nina fires back, some of 138 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: us don't have to. And then before things can actually escalate, 139 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: the director intervenes his nickname for Beth as Little Princess, 140 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: seriously condescending. The director briefly takes Nina to his apartment, 141 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: asking her if she's a virgin, giving her the assignment 142 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: to go home and touch herself. Nina tries, but before 143 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: she can, she's interrupted because she sees that her mother 144 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,559 Speaker 1: was sitting next to her bed. Super awkward moment. Yeah, 145 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: so this is the moment when I saw in theaters 146 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: where the older clientele and the audience were a gas 147 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: and like laughing. We were all laughing in shock at 148 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: all the reactions. It was so great because it's like, 149 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: I believe Clint Manzel does the soundtrack, So was this 150 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: building like dramatic moment. She's like really going at it 151 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: with this masturbation thing, and then it cuts her mom 152 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: right there and the music I was like, bomb ball. 153 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: I remember that moment so clearly. Yeah, yes, once again 154 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: does not get to finish, all right. So the next day, 155 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: Nina finds out that Beth was hit by a car. 156 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: The director believes that she did it on purpose to 157 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: end her life. Um. So Nina gets these things, some 158 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: of the best things that she's taken, goes over to 159 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: visit her in the hospital and and Beth is unconscious 160 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: at at this moment, but Nina sees that she broke 161 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: both of her legs and will never will probably never 162 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: dance probably again, and she sort of flees before Beth 163 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: wakes up. Back at the studio, the director asked that 164 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: Nina observed Lily dancing the black Swan, commenting that her 165 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: movements are quote effortless and that she quote isn't faking it. 166 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: Lily shares a resemblance to Nina, but has the qualities 167 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: of the black Swan that Nina lacks. Nina begins to 168 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: see more and more doppelgangers of herself, often a black 169 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: Swan version of herself, more sensual and dark, and she 170 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: starts to find these scratches on her back. The director 171 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: grows more and more frustrated with her unsensual performance as 172 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: the black Swan at one rehearsal, asking the other dancer 173 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: would you that girl? No, no one would, and then 174 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: he kicks everybody out, and then he dances with her, 175 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: touching her and kissing her um. Then he angrily pulls 176 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: away and says that was amused deducing you when it 177 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: should be the other way around. He leaves her alone. 178 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: They also left very hard at that part, because then 179 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: she runs after him and says please, and it's like 180 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: a really awkward moment, and the whole audience was like, 181 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 1: oh no, what. Lily comes to Nina's apartment to apologize 182 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: for telling the director to lay off Nina, something that 183 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: really annoyed Nina, and calls the director to yell at 184 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: her for whining. And she asked Nina out for drinks. 185 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: And then this is one of those like there's a 186 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: paranoia throughout this movie. But Nina's like, how did you 187 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: know where I live? And Lily says, I have my 188 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: ways but she just got it from the secretary at 189 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: the office. But anyway, Nina ignores her mother's strong objections 190 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: and agrees to go out. Lily offers her ecstasy and 191 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: she refuses, but Lily puts some in her drink without 192 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: Nina's knowledge or like she kind of sees it but 193 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: doesn't do I don't know. I guess she's just going 194 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: along with the ride. At this point, the to drink 195 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: and dance and flirt with some men Sebastian stand included. 196 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: Nina kisses someone and the hallucinations grow as they dance 197 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: on the dance floor. When they get back to Nina's place, 198 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: it clearly still inebriated. Nina taughts her mom about the 199 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: night out that she's had prompting her mom to hit her. Furious, 200 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: Nina takes Lille's hand and leaves her into a room, 201 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: barricading it from the inside and shouting at her mother 202 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: to leave her alone. Um, Lily and Nina have sex 203 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: um and the black tattooed wings on Lee's back started 204 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: like shivering and moving, But before Nina can finish UM, 205 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: she hallucinates a version of herself in the place of Lily, 206 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: her mother's voice calling her sweet girl, and a pillow 207 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: being pressed over her face. So when she wakes up 208 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: the next morning, Lily is gone and the door is 209 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: still bear caated from the inside. Nina angrily tells her 210 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: mother she's moving out because apparently she woke up late 211 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: and her mother would refuse to wake her up. She 212 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: finds Lily dancing the black scene choreography and confronts her 213 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: about last night, and Lily reveals she didn't sleep over 214 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: unless she has a dick. She actually says that teasing 215 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: Nina for having a sex dream about her. Nina's paranoia 216 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: grows as she learns that Lily has been made her alternate. 217 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: She begs the director to choose someone other than Lily, 218 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: filling Lily's out to get her. The director tries to 219 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: assure her, telling Nina the only one in her way 220 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: is her, which is not wrong. Her hallucinations increased and 221 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: her behavior becomes more erratic. Someone writes horror on the 222 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: mirror and red lipstick. She throws away her stuffed animals. 223 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: She practices non stop. She's not eating. She goes to 224 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: see Beth in the hospital to return her items, but 225 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: Beth staffs herself and the cheek with a nail file 226 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: that she gets back really grows, shouting nothing on repeat, 227 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: morphing into Nina, and all the images her mother has 228 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: painted of her start moving, and Nina flees to her 229 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: room and hallucinations, transforming into a swan, hitting her head, 230 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: passing out. The next morning is opening night, and Nina's 231 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: mother again didn't wake her when she overslept, saying that 232 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: she had called to let them know that she was 233 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: sick and would not be coming. She tries to leave. 234 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: Nina does, but her mother has removed the door knob, 235 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 1: and Nina attacks her mother and recovers the knob, yelling 236 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: at her about how she was the one that never 237 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: left the core. Yeah, so Nina, I have to Lincoln 238 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: Center late and the director tells her he had already 239 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: asked thee to fill in for her, but Nina doesn't budge, 240 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: asking him if he needs another controversy after what happened 241 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: to Beth. Impressed, the director agrees to let her dance 242 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: during the first act. A hallucination midway leads to her 243 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: being dropped um as the other dancers carrying her. Distraught, 244 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: she goes to her dressing room only to find Lily 245 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: getting ready to dance the Black Swan, taunting her about 246 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: her failure and ability to dance the black Swan. Lily 247 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: transforms into Nina as the Black Swan and a to fight, 248 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: So you get two needles. You got your white swan 249 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: your black Swan. And as they're fighting, they break a mirror, 250 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: a shard embedding into the black Swan's stomach, only for 251 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: her to transform back into Lily, now bleeding on the floor. Panicked, 252 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: Nina hides her body in the bathroom and goes back 253 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: to the stage to dance the Black Swan, losing herself 254 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: just as the director kept pushing her to. Also, that's 255 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: the common theme. That's the name of the song that 256 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: often plays. It's called Lose Yourself, and she she does 257 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: this dance like flawlessly. She she grows feathers and wings 258 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: as she does it. It's very you've probably seen that 259 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: image before she kisses the director backstage before returning to 260 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: the stage to thunderous applause, star wars reference Natalie Portman. 261 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: She goes back to her dressing room to change back 262 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: into the white swan, only to be into up did 263 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: by Lily, who congratulates her on her performance and says 264 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: she'll let her finish um and Nina frantically checks the bathroom, 265 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: but there is nobody or blood. She looks down and 266 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: realizes the shard is in her own stomach, standing her 267 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: white uniform with blood still, she returns to the stage 268 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: to finish the performance, catching sight of her mom watching 269 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: her with tears before she takes the final swan dive, 270 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: the crowd giving her a standing ovation. The director comes 271 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: back to where she is laying on the mattress, praising 272 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: her performance and calling her little Princess, before he realizes 273 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: she is bleeding, demanding someone to call for help and 274 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: asking what she did. Nina says that she was perfect, 275 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: and the movie ends with the audience chanting her name 276 00:15:43,200 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: and clapp yes so I'm so much I could add 277 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: fact here, but I did want to touch on obviously 278 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: the mental illness aspect, because I know, like a lot 279 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: of horror movies is pretty problematic trope, and a lot 280 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: of horror movies where that is used as sort of 281 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: the horror, and it is clear like throughout you're not 282 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: sure what's real and what's not, and you're always questioning, 283 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: questioning that and questioning the validity of her interpretation of things, 284 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: you know, her paranoia. But she is certainly like needed 285 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: help one but was a perfectionist and could not like 286 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: let go of being perfect and pushing herself to be perfect. 287 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: But I also think it's interesting this whole aspect of 288 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: like art and the kind of expectations around it, of 289 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: expectations of sharing your pain are going through pain or 290 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: being expected or even applauded when something is painful, difficult 291 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: mentally or physically. Because throughout there's also just all his 292 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: imagery of the damage on her body, like constantly you 293 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: see the like her toes or how thin she is, 294 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: and that was I remember when this came out me 295 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: like Cuness gave an interview where she said, like it 296 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: looks good on screen, but it was so unhealthy, like 297 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: we were so thin, and just remember reading about like 298 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: their diets and how much exercise they did, and it's 299 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: it's weird when you watch a movie that is about 300 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: art and then like you learned about kind of the 301 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: same thing that's happening really as they're making the movie. 302 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: It's kind of like, right, are imitating life. I guess 303 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: it's that what they always say. Nell Department was probosely 304 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: getting smaller and smaller. Yeah, but then there was this 305 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: whole thing about her self harming. So the scratches came 306 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: on pretty early on, which is when we see the interactions. 307 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: It was I think even before they started talking about 308 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: doing Black Swan, even though they have been practicing it already. 309 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: But like, yeah, that's the end that was self inflicted. 310 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: But she was trying to pretend like she wasn't self inflicted. 311 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: But that was a habit that her mom caught early on, 312 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: knowing that that was going to pull her to upbreak 313 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: down because she mentioned is happening again? Isn't that so 314 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: something had happened previously that made her think there's a 315 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: lot to it, of course, but there seemed to be 316 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: an indication that this is a pattern for her and 317 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: it was part of her stress and part of her 318 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: reaction to stress. Yes, yeah, and it's I always kind 319 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: of thought. And again I'm someone who reads like perhaps 320 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: too deeply into things a lot, but I always kind 321 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: of thought it was like her feeling that she was 322 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: imperfect manifesting like on her on her body, and she 323 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: because she is really really hard on herself and in 324 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: a strange way, that is what holds her back a 325 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: lot of times, is that she's so afraid of not 326 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: being perfect that she doesn't it holds her back. But 327 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: I yeah, I did want to talk about the relationship 328 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: between mother and daughter in this because it's very toxic. 329 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: And back when I was having that, you know, early 330 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: in PRISMNTI feminist movie Friday conversation in college with my friends, 331 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: one of the things I thought was the most interesting 332 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: was one of my friends was like, well, obviously there 333 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: was some sexual abuse that happened. I was like, what 334 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: that is not what I picked up on, But it 335 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: is very like I feel like it's a very infantilizing, 336 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: like she's trying to keep her and her little girl state, 337 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: like her room is, you know, in shades of pink. 338 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: It's very childish, has all these stuffed animals in there, 339 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: a lot of their like her mom calls her all 340 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: the time and calls the secretary of complaining about stuff 341 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: at the ballet place for Nina all the time. And 342 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: there's this she she's just very controlling and very protective 343 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: of than that narrative of you know, I had to 344 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: She even says the one point, you know, like I 345 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: had to give up my career because of you, and 346 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: I think feeling that guilt and and seeing kind of 347 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: Nina sayers an ally. Portman's character go from defending Beth 348 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: and saying like, you know, you can dance into you know, 349 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: Fontane danced into her forties or whatever, and then at 350 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: the end she's got saying, you know you were old, Bobby, 351 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: like it didn't matter that I was born, it was 352 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: too late for you. And that whole scene where she's 353 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: sort of replacing Beth, and in the back of her 354 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: mind she must know like one day this is my moment, 355 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: but one day someone will younger will replace me as well. 356 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: But all let's say, I think there's a lot of 357 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: resentment in there mother daughter relationship, right. I think there 358 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: was also the conversation of like she saw herself as 359 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: though wanted Natalie to succeed, but then when she saw her, 360 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: she was past seeing her and leaving her behind. So 361 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: there was this regret and needed to be needed. So 362 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: that's all she knew at that point, So she wanted 363 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: to push her to that point so that she could 364 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: be successful. So I thought she was going to be 365 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: that controlling mother that you see oftentimes when they pour 366 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: their own mildlihoods and expectations into the child. But then 367 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: it flipped real quick when she's like, oh, she's getting there. 368 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: But I also think part of her paranoia blew up 369 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: to making her mom the enemy. There was a lot 370 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: of bad things, and her mom was actually caring for her. 371 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: She really was like trying to stop her from doing 372 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: all these bad things to herself in a really negative way. 373 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: Like it was still talking the way she was trying 374 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: to do it, but she's trying to save her daughter's life. 375 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: She knew she was going to die. It's that's insane too. Yeah, 376 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: it was just complicated. It was a complex relationship because 377 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: she was definitely going about it in a very unhealthy way. 378 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: She has that entire room of just like paintings of Nina, 379 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: and it just feels like at the part where she 380 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: hits Nina, it's because she said she had sex with 381 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: two men, and so that felt to me like she 382 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: was like, oh, you're gonna make the same mistake I did, 383 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: even though it's implied that she it was like maybe 384 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: this director fellow, not the guy, but like somebody in 385 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: that position at the ballet place right who got her 386 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: pregnant and was like you're fired, goodbye. Yeah, but definitely 387 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: there was a vibe of not wanting Nina to make 388 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: the same mistakes, but also wanting to be very controlling, 389 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: not wanting her to surpass her, like you said, because 390 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: she'll she'll say these comments that are very like biting 391 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: when it it's almost like she's like, look, I know 392 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: you try that, you work so hard, you're so good, 393 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: but you're never going to get beyond this and that's 394 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: just where you are. And that's fine, Nina, but it's 395 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: Nina is like, no, I gotta push myself. I gotta 396 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: fish myself. I gotta fish myself. Right. It was a 397 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: really backheaded way of trying to slow her down and 398 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: being healthy. It seemed, again, there are some moments that 399 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: I was like, what did that actually happen? Or did 400 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: so was she actually in the audience or was she 401 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: not because she got her hand crushed twice? He did 402 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: that happen or was that in her head? Like which 403 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: part was the actual mother of what we were seeing? 404 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: M hmm. I always thought she was there, But you're right, 405 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: and it's so much of it is destabilizing in the reality. 406 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: And then there's also that scene that it kind of 407 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: relates to what we've been talking about lately, but where 408 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: she Nina finds out she gets the part she's like, 409 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: so having calls her mom and she comes home and 410 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: her mom has this cake and I mean it's like 411 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, no, no, I can't it's too big. 412 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: It's too big. And then her mom was like, oh, 413 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: it's garbage and like goes to throw it away and 414 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: then Nina's like, Okay, no, I'll eat it. I'll eat it. 415 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: But just moments of that of being like really controlling 416 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: and dependent on each other very unhealthy way, right for sure, 417 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: Like it was one of those moments of like, Okay, 418 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: she's not eating but then she just pitched to fet 419 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: what what so that both of those things like yeah, 420 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: you don't want her to eat a slice the case exactly, 421 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: but at the same time, you don't want the mother 422 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: to force her and make her feel guilty in gas 423 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: lighting her doing these things. Yes, yes, es, Yes, I 424 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: also did want to talk about I can feel like 425 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: we talked about this all the time. But this movie 426 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: is very much like The Madonna and or The Good 427 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: Girl the Bad Girl. You've got your good, sweet, innocent 428 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: white swan who was timid and virginal describes as a virginal, 429 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: and then you've got the black swan who has seen 430 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: as like sensual and much more like free and alive. 431 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: And there, I mean, there's one scene in this where 432 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: because Lily is clearly like the black Swan embodiment, she's 433 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: I was watching it last night even though I really 434 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: don't need to because I've seen this a million times, 435 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: but I loved it. But Mila Cutest is like rosspart 436 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: who is the sorcerer addressed all in black the cast 437 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: to spell. At the beginning, she's sort of this person 438 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: that keeps catching Nina's attention. And then at the scene 439 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: where she is like hovering over Nina's shoulder like she's 440 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: the devil on her shoulder. But there's a scene where 441 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: there they go out to the restaurant and Allie Portman 442 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: Nina gets you know, like a salad, Amila Cunas gets 443 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: a burger and it's like extra cheese and it's rare, 444 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is a cool girl. This is 445 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: the cool girl Joe Raser right exactly. She's also the 446 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: one that gets the guy and then shuts down the waiter. Yes, yes, 447 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: Like it's very very flirty and just painted as like 448 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: everything is you know, easy and light, and she's you know, 449 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: fun and willing to live life. And Nina next to 450 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: hers is just like so repressed and closed off. And yeah, 451 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: Lily keeps telling her live a little and she is, 452 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: I mean, Nina is very repressed. But like if we're 453 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: looking at like the lual ism of what's going on, 454 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: and essentially it is, yeah, you can not be this 455 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: version a all white white swan or this very sexual 456 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: black swan who all the men want to be with. 457 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: Apparently even though when he was like would you that 458 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: girl and he's talking about Alie port like, uh, alright, dude, 459 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what I think about. But there's also 460 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 1: a scene where it's just a man masturbating on the 461 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: subway like an old man, and he's looking at her. 462 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: And every time I see that scene, I'm like, I'm 463 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: not sure and I'm meant to take from this other 464 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: than like she's extremely uncomfortable in her kind of image 465 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: and how people perceive her as being one way. But 466 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: you would be, anybody would be that's a that's actually 467 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: a crime. So to me, this is one of those 468 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: moments of Aronofski making a shock value demoralized and women, 469 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: and I know that what's the point. He literally wanted 470 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: to talk about how women are the mean to these 471 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: subjects of whether it's for us being the virgin or 472 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: being a whore, like you can't be either, or you 473 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: are the overbearing mother, which we've seen a lot, and 474 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: or the mother who can't protect their children like those 475 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: are his kind of his themes. I've only seen two 476 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: of his films, so I guess maybe I'm just generalizing, 477 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: but because of what I know of his kind of personality, 478 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 1: what he's been accused of, and then what I know 479 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: of a mother, and then coming back to see this, 480 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: which is one of the ones that made him a 481 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: big name, coming back to see this, I was like, yeah, there, 482 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: it is exactly. I think another thing was shocking to 483 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: me because of these are the expectations of Aronofsky. These 484 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: are the expectations of kind of how he uses as 485 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: women in his own movies, how he uses women in 486 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: real life. So to me, none of that And I 487 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: say this in real life as in like what I've 488 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: read about him, even in his past relationships and and 489 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: and his you know, of those things that I'm like, Okay, 490 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 1: he is that director that I would be very much 491 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: afraid to have anybody tell me how it was to 492 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: work with him because of those demands. And again, like 493 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: I know part of that it was because he pushed them, 494 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: because he wanted to see this level of angst and depravity, 495 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: because it was what he was trying to convey. Again, 496 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: this goes back to and we probably have a larger 497 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: conversation of types like sex scenes and abuse scenes and 498 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: how far should we go for in the name of art? 499 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: How far should a woman be pushed in the name 500 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: of art? And this is one of those prime examples 501 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: of that of what we're pushing women to be. And again, 502 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: Mila Kunez, I love that she came out with like 503 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: this is bad. We went through something really horrible to 504 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: make it through this film. But yeah, so Natalie Forman 505 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: one the Academy Awards for this role. She wanted as 506 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: the best Leading Actress in a drama. And I get 507 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: that this is such a big, big deal and where 508 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: she did, and I'm sure she she's very proud of 509 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: this moment. But that's that level. But where were pushing 510 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: these artists, which is the same thing that he was. 511 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: It was very meta and that he was kind of 512 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: accusing the ballet industry of abusing their women, but in 513 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: actuality he did the same thing for this movie. Uh 514 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: So I feel like to me, like seems like the 515 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: masturbation state is literally to put back into perspective of yes, 516 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: how innocent she is, and oh my goodness, it almost 517 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: to the point that yes, I supposed feel creepy about it, 518 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: but also normalize it as if you should expect it 519 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: for this to happen. She should have expected it as 520 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: this beautiful young dancer on public transportation that an old 521 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: man is going to masturbate to her like it's and again, 522 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: like I said, I could be stretching that to like 523 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: angry feminist, why do we have to go to these 524 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: links for us to be successful as being women and 525 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: being taken seriously. And that's kind of that level dog 526 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: in a line, And I think we're gonna talking about 527 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: it in a minute, but like I felt like the 528 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: same scene with and I get that was a point, 529 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: but the sex thing between a Mela Kunas and Natalie 530 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: Portman felt like it was for the male gaze more 531 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,959 Speaker 1: so than the movie. Well yeah, and that's interesting because I, 532 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: like I said, I had my first sex dream. After 533 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: that I turned on. But now that I'm like older, 534 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: it is kind of like another example of crevating, and 535 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: crevating is really complicated. We talked about in a whole episode. 536 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: You couldn't look at it, but I was. I was 537 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: kind of like, let them get together, even though it 538 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: was very unhealthy, right, um, But I did want to 539 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: talk about what you were just discussing. Is this uneven 540 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: power dynamic between especially in this case, the male director 541 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: of the valet and now the apportman specifically I mean Nina, 542 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: but all all the vallet answers really, but in this 543 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: case her and just so many instances of like him 544 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: abusing his position in the name of are like you 545 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: were talking about like really going too far, but it 546 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: being for the art, and it is because Aaronofski is 547 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: That's kind of what Mother was about, is like, you know, 548 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: men taking women who are their muses and putting them 549 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: through some to make the art that they'll be credited for, 550 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: rewarded for, and then throwing away that, you know, traumatized 551 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: woman who was their muse. So it is. It is weird. 552 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: And sometimes you see a movie and you're like, or 553 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: any books, because every time I read a Stephen King book, 554 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, so this is you, Stephen King, this is yours. 555 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's not good if I'm like, are you 556 00:31:43,600 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: like vibing with this ballet art director? Right? Yeah, So 557 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: this whole movie was apparently kind of inspired by the 558 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: quote shadowy world of understudies and doppelgangers and kind of 559 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 1: taking that and then turning it into a psychological horror movie. 560 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: But also yeah, about ageism and this whole just idea 561 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: of getting replaced, which I thought was interesting because as 562 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: you watch it and Nina is having hallucinations in paranoia, 563 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: you are unsure of like, Okay, I mean the understudy 564 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: is kind of there to replace you, But how much 565 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: of this is paranoia, how much of it is really 566 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: actually trying to sabotage you? Right, M Right? At what 567 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: points was she really there and what she will like 568 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: to me? I will unnoticed when Lily shows up to 569 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: the apartment it the mother doesn't acknowledge her, The mother 570 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: doesn't see her the entire time, the mother doesn't talk 571 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: to her. So I'm wondering if she was actually showed up, 572 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: as opposed to maybe like she went out with her, 573 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: and they did go out, but she never showed up like. 574 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: I wondered both of those things because I purposely watched 575 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: the mom's reaction. She never acknowledges as if she was there. Yeah, 576 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: And that's and I see her growing concern when she's 577 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: talking about So it could be that she's growing concerned 578 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: because she's leaving the house or strong concerned because she's 579 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: having an imaginating conversation with no one there. Yeah. Yeah, 580 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: I always like upon after the movie is done. The 581 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: first time, I thought that she had been there, but 582 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, she wasn't there. The way it shot 583 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: is like Lily is kind of like over her shoulder, yes, 584 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: and seeing the lines with her as she says them. Um, 585 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: So I don't think she was there, but it is 586 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: you know, all these things that you've got a question, 587 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of like elements of gas lighting 588 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: throughout where you're kind of I can't tell how much 589 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: of it is gaslighting and how much of it is 590 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: something did or did not happen. I'm a hallucination right. Well, 591 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: to be fair, the original Beth was thinking that the 592 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: entire time that now Department Nina's character was coming after her, 593 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: and she didn't want her to be like I don't 594 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: know if maybe this was a rerun of what happened 595 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: to the person before her, but it kind of was 596 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: that same insinuation that you're trying to beat me, you're 597 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: trying to replace me, and she kind of was because 598 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: she stole her to look like her. Yeah, and then 599 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: at the end, when she goes to visit that at 600 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: the hospital, Nina is like, I understand, now she's out 601 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: to give me, she's trying to get me, and that's like, 602 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: you stold my things, right, and then it devolves from there. Okay, 603 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: but I did want to talk about this because back 604 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: in my when I first saw this movie, I thought 605 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: that the whole thing was about the female orgasm. Okay, interesting, yes, 606 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: because and you know we're gonna use some language as 607 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: not totally uh. I guess the problematic is problematic and 608 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: how we think about orgasms and how sex works and 609 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 1: orgasms don't have to be the end all be all, 610 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: but that is how we discussed them a lot. But 611 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: throughout the movie, there's so many lines where it's like, 612 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: just let her finish, lose yourself, and it it's like constantly, 613 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: every time she's on the verge of a breakthrough of 614 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: losing herself of an orgasm, something happens she's interrupted, And 615 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: so I thought the first time I saw this, I 616 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: thought it was about the fear of the female orgasm, 617 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: because when she finally does finish, she does and ors 618 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: very injured. It's that at the very least, right, and 619 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: it's definitely like, maybe that's not what the whole meaning is, 620 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: or maybe I was reading too much into it, but 621 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: that is the theme throughout is that she never gets 622 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: too she is repressed and she never gets to have 623 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: this sexual experience of sexual orgasm. But that doesn't she 624 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: finished with me la kunas No, does she not? I 625 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: thought she did mm hmm no, because since she they 626 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: were like on the urge the edge, I guess, and 627 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: then she looks up in her own face and then 628 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: the pillow in her face, and so she does not 629 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: Plus she probably wasn't well, who knows what was happening 630 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: at that point, if she was masturbating her cab scene too. Yes, 631 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that was a hallucination as well, right right, 632 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: my assumption as well. Yeah, I would not have gone there. 633 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: That was not my thoughts. That's an interesting thing. See, 634 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: this is what I love about when you have these 635 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: conversations with friends and there's like feminism involved. I'm like, 636 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: I think people to this movie Afraid Lady having an orgas. 637 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: My thought was that a woman could not be fully human. 638 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: That was my whole thing until like she gave everything 639 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: up of herself and then sacrificed yourself and then you 640 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: could be credited as human mm hmm, Like yeah, or 641 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: either just that any value the art, Yeah, of having 642 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: to really put your your health, physical and mental health 643 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: on the line, And I guess I would include not 644 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: having orgasms. I could. I mean, it's just so funny. 645 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,240 Speaker 1: That's why I wanted to talk about this for so long, 646 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: because I was so adamant about it and this was 647 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: before I really you know, I was, I was learning 648 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,399 Speaker 1: more and more about feminism and how we talked about 649 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: these kinds of things. But I'm just surprised that I 650 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: was so strongly of the opinion at this point that 651 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: that's what it was about. And when I say, like, 652 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: it's problematic in terms of, you know, as we've discussed 653 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: in a lot of recent episodes, it's the orgasm doesn't 654 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: have to be the end or the you know, the thing. 655 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 1: But a lot of the music when she's like masturbating 656 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: and you know, almost there is building like it's like 657 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: leading up to this, which does make sense, but that 658 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: also gives like the narrative of just let her finish, 659 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: like and that is the end all, which it doesn't 660 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: have to be. But I remember I was like shouting 661 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: that at the screen. I'm like, just let her finish. 662 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: The whole reason I want to talk about this obviously, 663 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of like themes that I have thought about. 664 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: It will change the way you watch it more like 665 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: I see where your head's at, Annie, I see what 666 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: it has that. I mean, again, the first extreme might 667 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: ever had after this movie. So maybe my head was 668 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: in a very specific place at this point in time, Hey, 669 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: you do you? Yes, let me speak to you how 670 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: it needs to speak to you. Yes, you know I 671 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: appreciate that. That the I will say, like at the 672 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: time when this came out, I don't think it was 673 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: still pretty and it still is pretty risk ay, even 674 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: though you know it really shouldn't be. But to show 675 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: a woman masturbating that was like the first instance I 676 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: had seen it, and I'm sure it's even more shocking 677 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: because it was Natalie Portman. Like, there's so many things 678 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: to who she is as an individual that were having Again, 679 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 1: this is very much her role, Like to me, yes, 680 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: this is so as suited for her from jump from 681 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: being that, playing innocent, being very like all of these things, 682 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: even though even as a child she never was a 683 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: child actor like we know this her first role was 684 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: really really deep and dark and a fantastic role. But like, oh, 685 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: this should be for an adult, but there's no way 686 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: any other child like she really pulled it off as 687 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: a child in these roles. But at the same time 688 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: you still have her as an innocent, young, all American 689 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: sweet girl. So having her masturbate as a timid almost 690 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: herself as almost what we would expect of her like 691 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: the character. For her to do that is shocking in itself. Yeah. Yeah, 692 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: And I remember also at this time, now you're making 693 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: me analyze all my stuff that was going on. But 694 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,959 Speaker 1: I just bought my first vibrator, I just learned about masturbation. 695 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: I feel like there's a whole awakening that ties to 696 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: this movie for you. I think so. I had never 697 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: thought about it in this way. Thank you say so. 698 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: At the time when it came out, I don't think 699 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: I've ever seen anything like that. I was even like, 700 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: is that how are you masturate? I didn't know. People 701 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: were like, no, I don't think I've seen like a 702 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: sex scene between women, or if I had not, like that, Yeah, 703 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: clearly it stuck with me. And this is what I 704 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: at the time. I was like, that orgasm, it's what 705 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: you took from it, got it? Yeah? Yeah, I think 706 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: that's a lot to say in this self. I feel 707 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: like you're judging me, but it's all right, not judging 708 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: you at all, because I was like, huh, and I 709 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: think you told me this before and it didn't click, 710 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,439 Speaker 1: and then watching it and I'm like I still don't 711 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: get it, but okay, get it. I do get it. 712 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: I felt like that was like, that would have been 713 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: never the conclusion I had come to that. Again, I 714 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: have a lot more. I was already tainted by so 715 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: many previous conversations about this movie in general. So I 716 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: was already very aware of kind of some of the 717 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: things that we're floating out there in conversation to this movie. 718 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: Not your conversation that was new what I have perceived. Yeah, 719 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 1: and I will say, like, if this was a different podcast, 720 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: we'd go more into it. But there was also controversy 721 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: about how much dancing Alie Portman did do actually do 722 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: versus what they said she actually did, and then austar 723 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: around the costuming and who got credit for the costuming. 724 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: But it seems very complicated, right, seems go out of 725 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: hear say, I don't want to. I'm not coming out 726 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: on anybody's side. I'm just saying I know that that exists. 727 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: So yes, and just have y I yes. So she 728 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: married Benjamin Millipede, who is a French ballet dancer, and 729 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: he was the choreographer David Moreau. So I don't know, 730 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I think that's her partner 731 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: in the movie. Oh yes, this is how she met 732 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,439 Speaker 1: her husband. All right, well, yeah, I mean I could 733 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: keep going on and on because I just have so 734 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 1: many thoughts about so much of this stuff in this movie. Um, 735 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: and just also the pressure for women to feel perfect 736 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: and the pressure to put up with stuff we really 737 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: shouldn't have to put up with, because that's where the 738 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: industry was. I mean, pretty soon after this, the ballet 739 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: industry did have their whole me too movement. I mean, 740 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,839 Speaker 1: I guess a couple of years, but still like they 741 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: they underwent that as well. And uh, there's just a 742 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: lot about yeah, the art that goes in into this 743 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: and what we expected women. But otherwise I keep going, 744 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: We'll never stop. Yes I did also, but you know, 745 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: briefly want to say, I think it's interesting that the 746 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,759 Speaker 1: dichotomy of the white swan, black swan, the madonna, the whore, 747 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: like you get praised but also penalized for being the 748 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: sweet girl to innocent, the virginal one, but people like 749 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: the black sung better because she's flirty and fun. And 750 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, I find it interesting that there's like 751 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,320 Speaker 1: punishments involved in both if you straight out of your box, 752 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: but also judgments involved in both. Yeah, alright, lots of things. 753 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: Um well, I'm so glad we finally got to discuss 754 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: this because it has been since two thousand ten, been 755 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: on my mind apparently. But as always, listeners, if you 756 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: have a suggestion for a movie, a book, a topic, anything, 757 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: please contact us. You can emails at Stuff Media, Mom 758 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: and stuff at i heeart media dot com. You can 759 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: find us on Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told You 760 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: or on Twitter at Moms Toff podcast. Thanks as always 761 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina, Thank you, and thanks to 762 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff I Never Told You his prediction 763 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts on my Heart 764 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: Radio is at the Hi radio app, Apple podcast, or 765 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.