1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,120
Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,360
Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. It's summer, and that means

3
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,200
Speaker 1: it's time for our tradition at Here's the Thing, where

4
00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,120
Speaker 1: the staff share their favorite episodes from our archives in

5
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,680
Speaker 1: our Summer Staff Picks series. Next up is producer Zach McNeice.

6
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,120
Speaker 2: Thanks Alec. Becca Heller is the founder of the International

7
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,520
Speaker 2: Refugee Assistance Project. When Donald Trump first instituted his travel

8
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 2: ban in twenty seventeen, Heller rushed volunteer lawyers into airport

9
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 2: terminals overnight to fight for the travelers trapped there in limbo.

10
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,760
Speaker 2: I wanted to bring this one back because that story

11
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,600
Speaker 2: didn't end in twenty seventeen. It's happening again right now

12
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,000
Speaker 2: on a wider scale. On the first day of his

13
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,640
Speaker 2: second term in January twenty twenty five, the Trump administration

14
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,560
Speaker 2: moved to shut down the entire US refugee program, barring

15
00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 2: travelers from nineteen countries. Since then, Becca and her team

16
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 2: of lawyers have been back in court fighting it every

17
00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 2: step of the way. Hearing conversations like this from the

18
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,720
Speaker 2: first Trump term. It's striking how much it plays less

19
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,680
Speaker 2: like history and more like a warning we're now living through.

20
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 2: Here's Alex's twenty nineteen conversation with Becca Heller.

21
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,920
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing.

22
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,959
Speaker 1: Late in the afternoon of January twenty seventh, twenty seventeen,

23
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, guided by Stephen Miller, issued the Muslim Man.

24
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,479
Speaker 1: Hundreds of people had their immigration status changed in mid air.

25
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,080
Speaker 1: They'd taken off from their home countries with permission to migrate,

26
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,600
Speaker 1: or to visit friends or have a business meeting. They

27
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 1: landed essentially as illegal immigrants. Those travelers needed the rule

28
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,840
Speaker 1: of law, needed a savior. They found one in my

29
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:59,120
Speaker 1: guest today, Becca Heller. Her organization, the International Refugee Assistance Project,

30
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 1: deployed an army of volunteer lawyers to the airports. One

31
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 1: of them obtained a court order forbidding deportations. As Trump's

32
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,359
Speaker 1: court troubles grew, he essentially gave up for a while

33
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,400
Speaker 1: the good guys had won. Heller was an overnight celebrity

34
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,800
Speaker 1: on every nightly news show. She got a New York

35
00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,680
Speaker 1: Times profile, a Daily show appearance, and a MacArthur Genius grant.

36
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,359
Speaker 1: IRAP tripled its budget in a year. Now Almost two

37
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,639
Speaker 1: years later, Heller has helped over two hundred thousand migrants

38
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 1: and refugees stay in the United States. It would be

39
00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,520
Speaker 1: heroic work for anyone, but especially so for someone in

40
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 1: their mid thirties with a toddler and a pile of

41
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,840
Speaker 1: student loans. Where do her energy and courage come from?

42
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 1: As it turns out, the answer is suburbia.

43
00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,880
Speaker 3: My dad was a cardiologist. My parents are both still

44
00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,280
Speaker 3: have amusing past tense just because they're retired, because anything

45
00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 3: tragic happened, and dad was a cardiologist.

46
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,800
Speaker 4: In my mom top public school where I grew up

47
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:05,560
Speaker 4: in the Bay Area.

48
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,160
Speaker 1: I have many siblings.

49
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:08,560
Speaker 4: I have one younger brother.

50
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 1: And what's he doing now? He's not solving the immigration

51
00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:12,680
Speaker 1: problem he is.

52
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 4: I think he's day trading, is how you would describe it.

53
00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,200
Speaker 1: Sure, school, someone's got to do that. Yeah, someone's got

54
00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:20,519
Speaker 1: to take the money that you have in your budget

55
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 1: and invested somewhere.

56
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 3: He's not day trading our budget, right, He's not helping

57
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:24,520
Speaker 3: your budget.

58
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:26,720
Speaker 4: He's not even helping me personally.

59
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:28,359
Speaker 3: I've asked him what I should do with my money,

60
00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 3: and he says he doesn't want to be responsible if.

61
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 1: I lose it all I had a dear friend, and

62
00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,360
Speaker 1: I'd say the same thing to me. I said, what

63
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,480
Speaker 1: should I do in terms of a business manager to

64
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 1: invest my money? He goes what he goes, what would

65
00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,920
Speaker 1: I do? Or what do I think you should do?

66
00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,600
Speaker 1: How different were he said? I would never tell you

67
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 1: to do what I did. He said, I don't want

68
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,080
Speaker 1: that responsibility now. So you grew up in the Bay

69
00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,640
Speaker 1: Area and through high school? Were you an activist or

70
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:51,240
Speaker 1: what were you doing?

71
00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,040
Speaker 3: I was like a wanna be activist, Like I had

72
00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,000
Speaker 3: all these ideas for things all the time, and I

73
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 3: felt sort of very empathic toward especially homelessness is a

74
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 3: very visible manifestations are Yeah, in the Bay Area, you know,

75
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,880
Speaker 3: because the weather's good, right, it's.

76
00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 1: A tolerant community too, Like there's a there's a level

77
00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 1: of homeless. So you just don't see on Park Avenue

78
00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 1: in the seventies, right, And I live in the village

79
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:12,840
Speaker 1: and you see quite a bit of it because that

80
00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,720
Speaker 1: community that is a lot more tolerant, right.

81
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,840
Speaker 3: And you know, we'll see if tech change is that

82
00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,200
Speaker 3: for better, right? But I think you know, that was

83
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,680
Speaker 3: so visible, and I remember always being like really worked

84
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,800
Speaker 3: up by that and having these like big ideas of

85
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:25,800
Speaker 3: You know, when I was ten, I was like, I'm

86
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,080
Speaker 3: gonna do a blanket drive and then just not doing

87
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 3: it because I think I don't know if I felt

88
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,279
Speaker 3: this empowered or I just felt scared or I didn't

89
00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 3: know my own You.

90
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:34,880
Speaker 1: Had the passion, but you didn't follow through.

91
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:36,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty like many people, I think.

92
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,680
Speaker 1: Right, and then you go to Dartmouth. Y Ah, you

93
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,800
Speaker 1: were all saying dartmouss is like of all the ivys,

94
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,200
Speaker 1: it's like the most animal house of the ivys. Is

95
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 1: that is that fair?

96
00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,200
Speaker 4: You think I can't roll with animal.

97
00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,640
Speaker 1: No, I'm just I'm closing my eyes. I'm thinking about

98
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,560
Speaker 1: you like having a blanket drive up there and in.

99
00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:55,320
Speaker 4: Uh, well, here's the thing.

100
00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,320
Speaker 3: I never did the blanket drive, right, I'm the person

101
00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 3: who wanted to and then went to Darmouth instead. No,

102
00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,160
Speaker 3: I actually I don't amazing time at Dartmouth.

103
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:02,200
Speaker 1: Why Dartmouth?

104
00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,640
Speaker 3: I messed up applying to college the first time around.

105
00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,800
Speaker 3: I applied to two schools early, and one of them

106
00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 3: found out and told the other, and they both rescinded

107
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,880
Speaker 3: my offer of admission, and I took a year off

108
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 3: and I did AmeriCorps, which I would pinpoint as sort

109
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,080
Speaker 3: of like the turning point of when I realized that

110
00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 3: do I need to resay that?

111
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,320
Speaker 4: Because I dropped that on the table and it made

112
00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 4: a weird.

113
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,320
Speaker 1: Echoing cent I think people can tell right away this

114
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 1: can be a very bumpy interview.

115
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,400
Speaker 4: Amer Corps. It's the kind of domestic peace corps.

116
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:34,000
Speaker 1: So where did you go?

117
00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 4: I stayed at home because they don't pay you very much.

118
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,320
Speaker 3: So I lived with my folks, and I was working

119
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,240
Speaker 3: at an elementary school in Berkeley on sort of broadly

120
00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,719
Speaker 3: equal opportunity education stuff. And they just gave us this

121
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 3: big budget and they were like, do programming to help

122
00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,360
Speaker 3: fight institutional oppression. And I was like, I don't know

123
00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,200
Speaker 3: what that means. I don't know how to do that,

124
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:53,600
Speaker 3: but I'm going to give it a shot. And then

125
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,120
Speaker 3: I think, much to my surprise, it turned out there

126
00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,680
Speaker 3: was a lot of things that we could do collectively.

127
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,440
Speaker 1: Now, when you leave school, when you leave Dartmouth, you

128
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 1: go to the EEAL Law School, you go right one

129
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 1: to the other. You take another gap.

130
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:09,920
Speaker 4: Oh no, I took two years.

131
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 1: What did you during that two years?

132
00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,600
Speaker 3: I was in Malawi for a year on a full break, right,

133
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,600
Speaker 3: And then I actually went to Vermont for a year,

134
00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,960
Speaker 3: partly for a boy, partly for a job. I ended

135
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,719
Speaker 3: up working on the Freedom to Marry campaign in Vermont.

136
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 1: Did you find you had a kind of a parapatetic nature,

137
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 1: you liked moving around, and you weren't married at the time,

138
00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,599
Speaker 1: you had no kids, And did you find now's the

139
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: time for me to go to Malawi for a year?

140
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,039
Speaker 1: Were there for like a year? Right? Yeah?

141
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,240
Speaker 4: I was there for a year. I still am pretty parapatetic.

142
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 3: Actually, I get really claustrophobic if I stay in one

143
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 3: place for too long. I like to move around. I

144
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 3: think the world is just completely fascinating. I like to

145
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:49,120
Speaker 3: see as much does your.

146
00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:50,479
Speaker 1: Husband share of that passion with you?

147
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 4: Or he has like a huge zest for life.

148
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,600
Speaker 3: He doesn't like long plane rides as much as I do,

149
00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,679
Speaker 3: but yeah, he loves to travel and I'm taking Actually,

150
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 3: the day after Trump was elected, I couldn't really get

151
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:04,839
Speaker 3: out of bed, but I went to the Brooklyn Public

152
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,279
Speaker 3: Library and got my kid, who was one at the time,

153
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 3: a passport because just I professionally help people flee and

154
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 3: I was like, if this all goes to shit, I'm

155
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:14,920
Speaker 3: not going to not be able to get across the

156
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,040
Speaker 3: Canada border because she has a different last name from me.

157
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 3: But she's never actually traveled internationally. But in January, I'm

158
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 3: taking her and my mom to Costa Rica, which I'm

159
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,240
Speaker 3: really excited about. I want her to be equally parapateetic.

160
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,040
Speaker 1: What was your awareness of Malawi and what was going

161
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:31,960
Speaker 1: on in Malawi before you showed up there.

162
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 3: Well, I had been in Zimbabwe on and off for

163
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 3: the year before we're doing. On paper, I was helping

164
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,400
Speaker 3: build community gardens as a response to HIV related malnutrition

165
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,360
Speaker 3: at public health clinics. But I think when you're you know,

166
00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 3: if you're an activist and you're deep in the middle

167
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 3: of a problem, you're always like, what's the root cause

168
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 3: of this?

169
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:51,960
Speaker 4: Right?

170
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,400
Speaker 3: And in Zimbabwe, the root cause of this was like

171
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,360
Speaker 3: the ruling party. So I ended up getting involved in

172
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 3: some political opposition stuff and ended up needing to leave

173
00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:02,440
Speaker 3: the country.

174
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 1: What kind of gardens community community gardens to address malnutrition

175
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,760
Speaker 1: in the HIV community? That sounds pretty benign and pretty wonderful.

176
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,200
Speaker 1: Would do you land in Zimbabwe knowing that the government

177
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,400
Speaker 1: and the status quo needs to be addressed, or do

178
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,280
Speaker 1: you learn that there land maybe accidental activist or you're

179
00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 1: predisposed both.

180
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:24,520
Speaker 4: I mean I didn't.

181
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:26,960
Speaker 3: I would say that I landed aware of the problems

182
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 3: because I do my homework. So like I landed knowing

183
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,439
Speaker 3: that ZANU PF, which was the ruling party, had said

184
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 3: no one can buy maize meal, which is the staple

185
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 3: food without a political party membership card, which means that

186
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,680
Speaker 3: like it doesn't matter how sick you are, in order

187
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,680
Speaker 3: to get food, you have to say that your loyal

188
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,200
Speaker 3: supporters would die right literally or starve to death. So

189
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 3: like I knew that, I didn't go in there saying, oh,

190
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,360
Speaker 3: I'm going to fix that. I'm going to address that.

191
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,440
Speaker 1: You know, but eventually couldn't help yourself.

192
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,559
Speaker 3: I mean I stumbled into a meeting of the opposition

193
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,640
Speaker 3: party and had some feelings. I mean, I think I

194
00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,560
Speaker 3: was primed in a way that like, I'm not afraid

195
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,560
Speaker 3: of a good fight on behalf of a good cause.

196
00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,440
Speaker 3: But I also I think going into some place, especially

197
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,360
Speaker 3: with like a fighting mentality, is usually like really unproductive.

198
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:16,640
Speaker 1: Tell me about it.

199
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think historically America hasn't been that good at

200
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,840
Speaker 3: not doing that. So I didn't go in saying like, oh,

201
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 3: I'm going to struggle for regime change. But I went

202
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 3: in being like, there's a problem, which is that, like,

203
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,559
Speaker 3: really sick people don't have access to immune boosting foods.

204
00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,040
Speaker 3: And this was before anti retroviral therapy was really widely available.

205
00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 3: And you know, HIV doesn't kill you. What it does

206
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 3: is weaken your immune system and then you get a

207
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,439
Speaker 3: secondary infection that kills you. So nutrition becomes really important.

208
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,839
Speaker 3: So I had this like theory that I thought might work,

209
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 3: but I went in knowing that it was just a

210
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,560
Speaker 3: theory and that really, like I didn't know shit about shit,

211
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,000
Speaker 3: and so I was open to learning that the problem

212
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 3: had other facets and there might be a better way

213
00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 3: to get question yeah, political or not?

214
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:02,440
Speaker 1: What kind of facilities did you live in?

215
00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,679
Speaker 3: I lived with a family. I originally actually was living

216
00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 3: with a black family because I had this weird concept

217
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,959
Speaker 3: of like solidarity that like, oh, just because I'm privileged

218
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,880
Speaker 3: and have a cell phone, like doesn't mean I should

219
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 3: get to stay in a fancy house, like I should

220
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,319
Speaker 3: stay in the township like everybody else. And then one

221
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,480
Speaker 3: night some rocks were thrown in the window and the

222
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,760
Speaker 3: rocks said maszongu on them, which means like white person it.

223
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,320
Speaker 1: Means go back to the embarcadera.

224
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,240
Speaker 4: I'm from the East Bay, so I don't mess around.

225
00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:31,040
Speaker 1: That's cool.

226
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,400
Speaker 3: It was the sort of awakening moment for me of like, oh,

227
00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,320
Speaker 3: that's solidarity, doesn't mean that I like pretend that we're

228
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:37,800
Speaker 3: the same.

229
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,400
Speaker 1: How much longer did you last in Zimbabwe? That was

230
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,240
Speaker 1: the beginning, And so what happened after that?

231
00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,840
Speaker 3: I kept doing the same work, but I moved in

232
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,200
Speaker 3: with a white family so that I wasn't like putting

233
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,600
Speaker 3: people in danger with my physical presence.

234
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 1: So what is the end game there? Meaning when did

235
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:54,199
Speaker 1: you realize it was time to get out of there?

236
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:55,600
Speaker 4: Well, I got to Portish like.

237
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,440
Speaker 1: Someone comes to was just back your things were going

238
00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 1: the I.

239
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,199
Speaker 3: Got picked up by the local police and taken to

240
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,360
Speaker 3: a police station and uh, they like held me in

241
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 3: an office for seven hours, and I started out really scared,

242
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,960
Speaker 3: and then by the end, I just like had to

243
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,199
Speaker 3: pee worse than I've ever had to pee in my life.

244
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 3: And then they came in and they're like, you need

245
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,400
Speaker 3: to leave the country. We're going to take you to

246
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:19,959
Speaker 3: the airport. And I was like, great, can we start

247
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 3: buy bathroom?

248
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:21,199
Speaker 1: Police?

249
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,160
Speaker 4: And that was kind of and then the family shipped

250
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 4: me my stuff, like.

251
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,079
Speaker 1: And then you came home. What happened? What did you

252
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:26,520
Speaker 1: start doing?

253
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,360
Speaker 3: That was when I got the full bright to go

254
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,240
Speaker 3: to Malawi. And then I went to Malawi for a year.

255
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:32,439
Speaker 1: And what was it work in Malawi?

256
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 4: I was working for the Malawian government.

257
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 1: What did the Malawian government want you to do?

258
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,600
Speaker 3: I was working for their Ministry of HIV AIDS and

259
00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,439
Speaker 3: Malnutrition and they wanted me to write their like five

260
00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,640
Speaker 3: year HIV AIDS and malnutrition. Yeah, but you know, I'm

261
00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 3: twenty three. I still don't know anything about these issues.

262
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,400
Speaker 3: They wanted someone who could write fluently in English that

263
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,280
Speaker 3: they could submit proposals to the World Health Organization to

264
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:57,000
Speaker 3: get funding.

265
00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 1: And then you were there for a year.

266
00:11:59,240 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, give or take.

267
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 1: Did you accomplish what you wanted to accomplish in Malawi?

268
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 4: No, not remotely, Shoul.

269
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:04,720
Speaker 1: When you look back on that year, how do you

270
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:05,600
Speaker 1: characterize that year?

271
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,720
Speaker 4: I was bored and you learned. I don't know if

272
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,920
Speaker 4: I I mean, I came back opposed to foreign aid.

273
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,320
Speaker 4: Why for a bunch of reasons.

274
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,600
Speaker 3: I mean, one, I feel like a lot of it

275
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,359
Speaker 3: gets lost to corruption. Two, I feel like it displaces

276
00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,680
Speaker 3: the growth of a real middle class. I think that

277
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 3: if you know, in Malawi, for example, some huge amount

278
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,720
Speaker 3: of their GDP was in the form of foreign aid.

279
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,840
Speaker 3: And if like America keeps subsidizing farmers to grow a

280
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,840
Speaker 3: bunch of food we don't use and then dumps that

281
00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,320
Speaker 3: food for free on countries like Malawi, it becomes really

282
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,199
Speaker 3: hard for Malawian farmers to ever grow anything.

283
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 1: Marketing take care of themselves.

284
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,200
Speaker 4: Right, So it just created and infantilized the culture there.

285
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it prevented any real local economic growth.

286
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,400
Speaker 1: So you're bored. You're like, what do I do? Let's

287
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:49,440
Speaker 1: go to Yale Law School.

288
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:49,560
Speaker 5: No.

289
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 3: Then I chased avoid of Vermont because I thought I

290
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,640
Speaker 3: really missed Vermont and i'd and you.

291
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:56,320
Speaker 1: Were there for how long?

292
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:56,840
Speaker 4: For a year?

293
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 1: Right? And in pursuit of helping gay men and women

294
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,400
Speaker 1: get married? Did you end up getting married to the

295
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,600
Speaker 1: boy you chased him FROMONTI did you close that deal?

296
00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,960
Speaker 4: I did not. We I am married to someone else.

297
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,360
Speaker 1: Once that guy you chased everyone found that he could

298
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:12,920
Speaker 1: get married to a guy, he would and marry a guy.

299
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, that must have been what happened. Yeah, I think

300
00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:16,840
Speaker 4: would we not be together anymore?

301
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,559
Speaker 1: How? Long were you in Vermont? A year? A year,

302
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,720
Speaker 1: so it seems like a year is your shelf list. Well,

303
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,280
Speaker 1: it was in your youth.

304
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:24,880
Speaker 4: Are you saying I'm not in my youth anymore?

305
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:26,200
Speaker 1: Nobody in your preth you.

306
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,880
Speaker 4: Invite me on your podcast, Tell me I'm no longer

307
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:29,480
Speaker 4: in my year.

308
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,560
Speaker 1: In your natal stage, in your pre natal.

309
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,079
Speaker 3: Stage with an embryo nine months was myself. Yes, No,

310
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 3: I did a lot of stuff for you. I mean,

311
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,760
Speaker 3: I think I think most people in their early twenties

312
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,880
Speaker 3: should do that, like a year or two. I think

313
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:42,640
Speaker 3: your twenties is.

314
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,160
Speaker 1: A time a topus of issues.

315
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, you like you don't know what flows your boat, like,

316
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:48,880
Speaker 3: try out a bunch of stuff like.

317
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 4: That's your think.

318
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,440
Speaker 1: I always tell people that I said, either before you

319
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,760
Speaker 1: go to college in this way of a gap year,

320
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,440
Speaker 1: which I just loved that idea. I said, don't go

321
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,360
Speaker 1: to college. I said, take a year off and work

322
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,199
Speaker 1: and travel. If you can take me.

323
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,560
Speaker 3: A gap year is the I mean, I didn't do

324
00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,920
Speaker 3: it purpose, but it's the best thing that ever happened me.

325
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,319
Speaker 1: So then when you de said to go to law school,

326
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 1: and why, I think I've was.

327
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,200
Speaker 4: Kind of known. I was going to go to law school.

328
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:10,840
Speaker 1: Did you feel that that was just like a that

329
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 1: was a bullet you wanted in your chamber.

330
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 4: I didn't know kind.

331
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,200
Speaker 3: Of like which social justice issues I wanted to take on,

332
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 3: but I felt like whatever I was working on, like

333
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,280
Speaker 3: at a certain point, you just run up against the law.

334
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 3: And I wanted to know if a law degree was

335
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:25,760
Speaker 3: a way to kind of get over that hurdle.

336
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 4: And I worried that it wasn't.

337
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,600
Speaker 1: How do you describe your eyears in law school? Intense?

338
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:31,920
Speaker 4: It was a lot.

339
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 3: I mean, Yale's nice because they don't make you take

340
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,440
Speaker 3: any classes. So I basically just did clinics, which is

341
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 3: where you work on cases directly. I founded IRAP in

342
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 3: law school. We're going to get to that, yeah, yeah,

343
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,160
Speaker 3: But I mean I just I did IRAP. I did

344
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,880
Speaker 3: like the human rights clinic. I did the immigration clinic.

345
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 3: I got to like depose racist cops.

346
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:53,840
Speaker 4: That was pretty fun.

347
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:55,920
Speaker 1: In New Haven?

348
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 4: In Danberry?

349
00:14:58,280 --> 00:14:59,040
Speaker 1: How did that go over?

350
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 4: Oh? I love and we won the case?

351
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 1: Do you get deported from Connecticut? So when you found

352
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,560
Speaker 1: I wrap, how does that idea come to you? How

353
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,120
Speaker 1: does the idea of immigration is the issue that becomes

354
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,760
Speaker 1: your creed to cur obviously for the last several years.

355
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:16,640
Speaker 1: How did that happen?

356
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,240
Speaker 3: When I came to law school, I thought I wanted

357
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 3: to do international human rights law, and then I realized

358
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,400
Speaker 3: that that's mostly pr Why do you say that when

359
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,520
Speaker 3: an international human rights court rules on something, it's not

360
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,960
Speaker 3: really binding, right, Like, they can hold that this thing

361
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,040
Speaker 3: that the US does is illegal and the US is

362
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 3: free to keep doing it. And what happens is there

363
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 3: will be an article that the like YadA YadA, YadA,

364
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 3: court ruled that this country is behaving illegally, but usually

365
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 3: it doesn't actually lead to anything in practice. The sort

366
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,680
Speaker 3: of naming and shaming element of the sort of public

367
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,040
Speaker 3: relations nature of human rights law is really important. It

368
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,640
Speaker 3: just didn't interest me as the thing I wanted to

369
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 3: be doing every day because I wanted something a little toothier.

370
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 3: And so I got really interested in an asylum law

371
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 3: because it's people who are fleeing international human rights violations

372
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 3: and then looking for a remedy that will actually help

373
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 3: them kind of restart their lives. There's you know, they've

374
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,520
Speaker 3: fled something really awful, They've gotten to a place where

375
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,280
Speaker 3: they think they can be safe, and they're trying to stay.

376
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:14,880
Speaker 3: So it felt like a way that I could address

377
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 3: the fallout of international human rights violations, but in a

378
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 3: way that like had concrete meaning, even if it was

379
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 3: on you know, a person by person scale rather than

380
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 3: like a nation by nation scale.

381
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 1: So you decide to set it up how and where?

382
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 1: What's the physical operation there?

383
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,120
Speaker 4: There wasn't one for a long time.

384
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 1: I mean I was a cell phone.

385
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:33,920
Speaker 3: I don't even know if I had a self I

386
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 3: guess I had a cell phone. I didn't have an iPhone.

387
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 3: I sort of wandered into the issue. I was doing

388
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,280
Speaker 3: an internship between my first and second years of law school,

389
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,040
Speaker 3: and the NG I was with just sort of.

390
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,400
Speaker 4: Didn't have enough for me to do. And I really

391
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,400
Speaker 4: hate that, like I hate wasting my time energy.

392
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 3: Well, also, you know we're all going to die, so

393
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,680
Speaker 3: the minutes are important.

394
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 1: I see all the paintings in the museum before I die.

395
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 4: I started with my childhood.

396
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean that's very exciting and very admirable book.

397
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,360
Speaker 1: But you've been doing this for how long now? Six years,

398
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:04,159
Speaker 1: seven years.

399
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 4: Eight to ten A long time?

400
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 1: Long time.

401
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I've improved my shelf life by an order

402
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,680
Speaker 3: of magnitude.

403
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 1: Right, you're in.

404
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,600
Speaker 4: I am in. I Rip was the hotel California.

405
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,320
Speaker 3: For me, I thought, I go startra or the Eagles,

406
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 3: and I want the Eagle.

407
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,119
Speaker 1: I'm always down with Eagles.

408
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,879
Speaker 4: I hate the fucking Eagles. Man, do you really know

409
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 4: I was quoting the bigel basket.

410
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,160
Speaker 1: We're doing overlapping cultural references. I know I was trying

411
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,320
Speaker 1: to hang the bowski Eagles. I love it when when.

412
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,480
Speaker 4: Law school ends, Well here's what happened.

413
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 3: I am really obsessed with efficiency, going back to my

414
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,560
Speaker 3: mortality thing a little bit.

415
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 4: But I also just like, I'm not.

416
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 3: It's not about ego for me, right, I'm not like, oh,

417
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,000
Speaker 3: I want to start an organization, like I actually really didn't.

418
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,680
Speaker 3: People go to law school not knowing what they want

419
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,359
Speaker 3: to do, and I actually went to law school wanting

420
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,480
Speaker 3: to be a lawyer.

421
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,359
Speaker 4: Like I love the practice of law.

422
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 3: It's just like it's mirrors how my mind works.

423
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,199
Speaker 4: Really well, I think you gave that up.

424
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't do that really why because that's not

425
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 3: It turns out running an organization isn't about like doing

426
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,159
Speaker 3: the programming of the organization. Basically, like I met with

427
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,400
Speaker 3: these refugees in Jordan after quitting this internship in Israel,

428
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,760
Speaker 3: and they all just needed legal assistance. They were, you know,

429
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 3: they can't go back to a rock because something terrible

430
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,439
Speaker 3: happened to them. They can't stay in Jordan because they

431
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 3: have no status, They can't work, their kids can't go

432
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 3: to school, they can't get health care, they could be

433
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:33,920
Speaker 3: deported at any time for whatever reason.

434
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,960
Speaker 1: There's only one direction they can go in right safely.

435
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 3: And the process of deciding sort of who gets to

436
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 3: go in that direction and how and then who has

437
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,920
Speaker 3: to like get on a raft across the Mediterranean or

438
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,359
Speaker 3: who has to go back to Syria and get killed

439
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 3: is just incredibly legalistic, super arbitrary, really complicated and bureaucratic.

440
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 3: So I was like, oh, you need a legal advocate,

441
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,119
Speaker 3: Like this is a legal process. Your life depends on

442
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 3: the outcome. If I were in a legal proceeding and

443
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 3: like the death penalty or on the line, the thing

444
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,479
Speaker 3: I would want the most would be a good lawyer.

445
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 1: So for example, to distill this part of it down,

446
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 1: because I want to think about it. I want to

447
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 1: get into this theoretically for a minute. Yeah, where someone

448
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 1: can't go back because that means death, like I understand

449
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: them getting all the help they can. But do you

450
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 1: think that there should be limitations on immigration in this country?

451
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:23,879
Speaker 4: I mean sure?

452
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,200
Speaker 1: And where do people who are typically line up on

453
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,919
Speaker 1: the opposite side of the issue than you? Where do

454
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:28,640
Speaker 1: you think they're right?

455
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,879
Speaker 3: I think mostly the problem with how we can sceptualize

456
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,160
Speaker 3: of immigration policy in this country is that we look

457
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 3: at it in a vacuum. I think you can't answer.

458
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 3: You know, I get asked like, do you think there

459
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 3: should be an open border? Do you think do you

460
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 3: think we should len in as many immigrants as possible?

461
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 1: Are you?

462
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 3: I think it's an irrelevant question. I think as long

463
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 3: as we're or I think the answer is yes. As

464
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 3: long as we continue to overthrow democratically elected governments and

465
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,159
Speaker 3: rape countries of their natural resources such that there's no

466
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,960
Speaker 3: political stability or jobs, I think we shouldn't be surprised

467
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,159
Speaker 3: when people have to flee those places and show up

468
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 3: here where all the resources have landed. So to me, like,

469
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 3: as long as our economic and foreign policies are what

470
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 3: they are, it seems really hard to decouple our border policies.

471
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,640
Speaker 1: And you think the United States is responsible directly?

472
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 3: MS thirteen exists because we overthrew governments and then deported

473
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 3: people back there. MS thirteen was deported from La to

474
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 3: l Salvador. I mean, it's just you know, and for decades.

475
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 1: Like for the whole paris of Central America, something.

476
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 3: We made in the sense that we made it sure,

477
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 3: Like how many democratically elected leaders did the CAA overthrow

478
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,719
Speaker 3: in Central America in the eighties, like tons, like we

479
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,159
Speaker 3: destabilized that region. And then prior to that, you know,

480
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 3: with like United Fruit Company, like we created plantations, we

481
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 3: enslaved the population, We took most of their natural resources

482
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 3: and took them here, Like we prevented the growth of

483
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 3: local economies. We did everything possible over the last hundred

484
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,120
Speaker 3: years to deming them. And now you know this whole

485
00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,200
Speaker 3: idea that like, oh, people are only coming because there's

486
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 3: no jobs, Like well, the fact that there's no jobs

487
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 3: is what leads to like drug violence, gang violence, murders,

488
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 3: domestic violence, and that's kind of on us.

489
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 1: We point the finger there and say it's a mess,

490
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 1: and it's a mess.

491
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 4: We made it's our mess.

492
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: To a large degree. Yeah, I don't remember immigration being

493
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 1: this hot of an issue politically. Has it been in

494
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,360
Speaker 1: the sixties seventies eighties.

495
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 3: Government has made it a higher priority to use its

496
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 3: power to persecute immigrants than they ever had. But I

497
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 3: don't know that anti immigrant sentiment is necessarily that different.

498
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 3: I think it's being stirred up, right. I think it's

499
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 3: more activated. But I think, you know, you go back

500
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 3: to you know, I went on this kick on July

501
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 3: fourth this year, I read seventeen seventy six in an

502
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 3: attempt to remember that like revolution on American soil was

503
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 3: once possible, they hated immigrants then, like you know, the

504
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 3: immigrants were the Irish, and then later the immigrants were

505
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 3: the Germans, and then they were the Italians.

506
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 4: But that you know, we've always hated immigrants.

507
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 3: There's a you know, the first ever Supreme Court case

508
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 3: saying you can't discriminate against people based on national origin

509
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 3: is from the end of the nineteenth century about Chinese

510
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 3: immigrants who were being sort of systematically discriminated against, and

511
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court was like, no, you can't do that

512
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 3: under this constitution. But it took the Supreme Court stepping

513
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 3: in to and it didn't fix it. I was going

514
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 3: to say, to fix it, but it didn't fix it.

515
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 3: So I think you know, and of course, like I'm Jewish,

516
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 3: and you think about the Saint Louis, which is the

517
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 3: you know, the ship carrying Jews fleeing the Holocaust that

518
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 3: went from like Port to Port to Port in the

519
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 3: very beginning of World War two, and no one would

520
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 3: let it dock, and eventually it had to go back

521
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 3: to Europe, and they trace the futures of most of

522
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 3: those people, and most of them died in Auschwitz, and

523
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 3: America basically said like, we would rather send these people

524
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 3: to their death than have to admit Jews as refugees.

525
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 3: That doesn't feel that different to me. It just like,

526
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 3: is really tragic that we can't seem to learn from

527
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: our mistakes.

528
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: Lawyer and refugee advocate Becca Heller of the International Refugee

529
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: Assistance Project. There are now more refugees in the world

530
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: persecuted and unable to go home than at any time

531
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: in history. Only the end of war and hunger can

532
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: keep people from trying to move to safer countries. The

533
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: medical charity Doctors Without Borders, known by its French acronym MSF,

534
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: is on the ground wherever violence or disasters strike. Their

535
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 1: international president, Joanne lu joined me on here's the Thing,

536
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: and talked about her experience working in Chechnya.

537
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 5: You are putting other people in danger. We were on

538
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,199
Speaker 5: the attack on a regular basis, that's one thing, but

539
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 5: the threat of being abducted was so huge, and we

540
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 5: knew that if something were ever to happen to the

541
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 5: MSF staff, then we will pull out, So we were

542
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 5: praying for not.

543
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: It was so nerve wrecking out of fear.

544
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, I hate that because I know this is so

545
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 5: self centered and compared to what all those people are

546
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 5: going through. Come on, get a grip on yourself.

547
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 1: Here the rest of that interview in our archive at

548
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: Here's the Thing dot org. After the break what really

549
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: went on behind the scenes and in the spotlight after

550
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 1: the Muslim band came down. This is Alec Baldwin and

551
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: you were listening to Here's the Thing now more with

552
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: the hero of the Trump resistance on refugee policy, Becca Heller.

553
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: When did you realize that Trump had a viable candidacy?

554
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: Were you even paying attention that, I'm sure I'm assuming

555
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: you were. And when you sit there and go, oh

556
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: my god, he's going to take this thing, and there's

557
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: plenty of kindling on the ground and he's square, lighter,

558
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: fluid all over the floor.

559
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 3: Honestly, not until not until they called Pennsylvania. I mean

560
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 3: we like I remember, like we were really excited for

561
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 3: election night because we were like, oh, we're gonna eat

562
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 3: popcorn and like watch come up and it's happen and

563
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 3: show that like you can't win an election based on hate,

564
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 3: and we like you know, had beer and other things

565
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 3: that I don't want to say on the radio and

566
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 3: we put our kid to bed.

567
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: Then y baby, you can let it rip. That's okay.

568
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm I don't want to get my bar membership.

569
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: Oroked, no, no, don't, don't, don't, don't do that.

570
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 4: We could let it rip in the studio, but just not.

571
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: Say well, no, no on the don't light that in.

572
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 4: Here, put that out, put it out. But we I

573
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 4: think everyone had this experience of just like this did you.

574
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: Do in the campaign? You sensed he was different, you

575
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: sensed he was nuts. I mean I knew.

576
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: I followed it really closely, like I knew it was happening,

577
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: and I was one of those people who was like,

578
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: don't worry about it.

579
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 4: Hillary's totally going to win. There's no way she doesn't

580
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 4: take the bag.

581
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 3: I completely had my head in the sand, like, and

582
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 3: I remember going to bed waiting.

583
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 4: For them to call Wisconsin. And I woke up at

584
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 4: like three thirty on. My husband was me too.

585
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: Three o'clock.

586
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I woke up.

587
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: I passed out and look up at three Yeah, my computer.

588
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 3: My husband was on his phone and I was like,

589
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 3: you know, did they call Wisconsin? And he was like,

590
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 3: they called Pennsylvania.

591
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: I was. I was my wife and I fell asleep

592
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: because we got you know, a lot of little kids,

593
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: and my wife literally like she would she wasn't so

594
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: miserable and tired and because of breastfeeding the baby, and

595
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: my wife to looks and she goes, oh God, and

596
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: then she just passed out again.

597
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

598
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: No, that was the same, except for not passing out again.

599
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 3: I just like spent the rest of the night in

600
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 3: sort of a series of panic attacks. But yeah, no,

601
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 3: I didn't see it coming. I really didn't. And part

602
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 3: of that is because I'm, you know, the bi coastal

603
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 3: elite who like I went from California to New England

604
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 3: to New York, like, apparently I have no idea what's

605
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: happening in the middle of the country.

606
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: January twenty eighth, twenty seventeen, if everybody's at the airport,

607
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: describe what happened.

608
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it started the twenty third actually, so

609
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 3: Trump getsworn in on the twentieth. He takes the weekend

610
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 3: off to go golfing, because why would the president work

611
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 3: on the weekends, And everyone's sort of waiting to see, like,

612
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 3: of the various awesome things he's promised you during the campaign,

613
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 3: what's going to come down first? And Monday, Uh, the

614
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 3: travel ban actually leaks to us. Someone takes a photograph

615
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 3: of a desktop monitor in the White House, sends it

616
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: to someone who sends it to someone who sends it

617
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 3: to us, and it has the text of the travel

618
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 3: ban on it. And we're like, oh, so, And we

619
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: knew it was coming right, Like, it was not a

620
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 3: secret that Trump didn't want refugees coming in from Syria,

621
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 3: and we assumed that we'd be grappling with that at

622
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 3: some point.

623
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 4: We didn't know that it would be like one of

624
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 4: the first things to occur.

625
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: So we start, we have a number of clients who

626
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 3: have permission to enter the US but who haven't left

627
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 3: yet because it takes a long time to sort of

628
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 3: sell everything you own, tie up all your loose at,

629
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: right to pack, right to give up your entire Agberry Finn. Yeah,

630
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: I mean you know he was a lot younger and

631
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 3: didn't have a family.

632
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

633
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 3: So we start calling our clients and saying, hurry up

634
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 3: and get on a plane like whatever, like take the

635
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 3: hit on the loss of your house and and get

636
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 3: on planes and.

637
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: Got you're saying clients. You're saying the organization had relationships

638
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 1: with these people. Yeah, we need to get out.

639
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 4: We represent thousands of individuals.

640
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: Thousands, yeah, thousands. How we find you online a bunch

641
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: of ways.

642
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: We have offices in the field, we have the NGOs,

643
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 3: and the UN refer cases to us.

644
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: Is this why the budget of six and a half

645
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: billion dollars that kind of outreached. It's not nothing.

646
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

647
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 3: We have four people whose full time job it is

648
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 3: just to like reply to every inquiry where we get

649
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: because so many refugees just reach out to like hundreds

650
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 3: and hundreds of people and hear nothing. And we feel like,

651
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 3: at the very least, like if you're sort of a

652
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 3: voice crying out in the darkness, you deserve an answer.

653
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 3: And usually we try to also provide a helpful answer

654
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 3: with like legal advice, and then we take on their

655
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: legal cases too, and we actually the UN refers cases

656
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 3: to us. That was what originally triggered me to realize

657
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 3: I needed to do this full time, was when the

658
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 3: UN called the summer between my second and third years

659
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: in law school and asked if they could refer cases

660
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 3: to us. First, I was really flattered, and then I

661
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: was just like, shit, like, you don't have anyone else

662
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 3: to call. I'm not even a lawyer, Like someone has

663
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: to do this, you know. But so we had a

664
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: bunch of clients and a couple dozen who had permission

665
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: to enter but hadn't come yet. So we reached out

666
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 3: to all of them and we were just like, get

667
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 3: on a plane. We'll spot the plane tickets. We got

668
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 3: law firms to cover them, and then that Wednesday, we

669
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 3: had a transgender client flying into LAX And with transgender clients,

670
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: it's always really tricky when they fly because their documentation

671
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 3: doesn't match how they present, and usually you worry about

672
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: that when they're exiting, and this time I was really

673
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 3: worried about that when they entered, because I was like,

674
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: they might be looking for like any excuse to fuck

675
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: with anybody coming in from one of these seven countries

676
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 3: if the band comes down, And so we arranged for

677
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 3: a lawyer to just like surreptitiously hang out in the

678
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 3: arrivals area of LAX and make sure that this woman

679
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 3: had the lawyer's contact info in case anything went wrong

680
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: with her entry.

681
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 4: And thankfully it didn't.

682
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 3: But that night I was g chatting with my policy

683
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: director and she was like, Oh, thank goodness the band

684
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: didn't come down today. And I was like, oh, because

685
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: this woman was able to make it in And Betsy

686
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 3: was like, yeah, all the other people who were on

687
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 3: her flight, and I was like, holy shit, this band

688
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 3: comes down. Whenever that is, there's going to be thousands

689
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: of people who are in the air who had legal

690
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 3: permission to enter the US when they took off and

691
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: are going to land essentially as undocumented, and nobody knows

692
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 3: what's going to happen to them. And I had spent

693
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 3: a lot of time between November ninth and January twentieth

694
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: being like, what tools do we have to deploy and

695
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 3: this upcoming war on refugees right, and the biggest thing

696
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: we had was this army of lawyers. So we had

697
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 3: put some thought into how can we organize that? What

698
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 3: do we want to do with it? So I was like,

699
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 3: we should organize lawyers to go to all the airports.

700
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: So we emailed our network and organized lawyers to go

701
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 3: to every international airport property lawyers. We organized sixteen hundred

702
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 3: and then I don't know how many it ultimately ended

703
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 3: up being, I mean.

704
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: Thousands of thousands, multiple thoughts, yeah.

705
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 4: I mean.

706
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: And the cool thing was that, like for the first

707
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 3: couple of days, like we were organizing most stuff, and

708
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 3: then everyone started self organizing, which was amazing. Like I

709
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: remember being at JFK and there was this just like

710
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: super competent guy sort of like assigning people tasks and

711
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: I hadn't slept because we were trying to file the lawsuit,

712
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: which we can talk about, and I was sort of

713
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: a mess, and I remember thinking I should recruit him,

714
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: and I pulled him aside at one point. I was

715
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: like who are you, Like, what do you do and

716
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 3: he was like, oh, I work at McKinsey, And I

717
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: was like, yeah, are you happy there? He's like I

718
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 3: love it, and I was like, all right, good to

719
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: meet you.

720
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:24,239
Speaker 4: You know.

721
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: Next, how many people did you get into the country.

722
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: Twenty one hundred Wow, in partnership with other NGOs and

723
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: a ton of lawyers.

724
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 4: And you know, I mean it wasn't kept telling if.

725
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: You kept in touch with them and monitored them And

726
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: are they all still here?

727
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 4: I have no idea, You have no idea. I literally

728
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 4: don't know their names.

729
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 3: We wouldn't know the number if the acl you hadn't

730
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: sued under the Freedom of Information Act.

731
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is you get him here,

732
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 1: then the vice is up to them.

733
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 3: Most of those people are coming on temporary visas. My

734
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: daughter is scheduled to have a C section. I really

735
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: want to be there for her. Someone's getting married, someone

736
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 3: is dying, there's an event. Not people who who want

737
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,479
Speaker 3: to immigrate to the United States, and most of are

738
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 3: trying to visit family because from these seven countries, like

739
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: we're not giving out a lot of tourist visas for you.

740
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: Many's to come go to Disneyland. So most of the

741
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: visas that we're giving out, it's because you have a

742
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 3: really compelling reason to come in some tie to the US,

743
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: because our visa program like was not free of sort

744
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: of racial or national origin profiling before this right like

745
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: IRAP has a Syrian staffer, and we've been applying for

746
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 3: a visa for her to come to New York for

747
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 3: our all staff retreat, like since the Obama administration, and

748
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 3: we can't get one for her. Why do you think

749
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: because they don't believe that you could be Syrian and

750
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 3: not intend to immigrate. The State Department, yes, the government,

751
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: and the various other you know.

752
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: You come out the other end of this experience of

753
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: the twenty seventeen.

754
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 4: Airport weekend.

755
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: Airport that's okay, that's what I called. My mom called

756
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: Jemmy Chase in Airport Weekend.

757
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 4: No, he doesn't get to be in it. Sogan could

758
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 4: definitely play me.

759
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: So you have Airport Weekend and you come out the

760
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: other end of that, and you realize things have changed

761
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: for you. Do you feel that they change for you

762
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: personally in your career, your arc?

763
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 4: I mean I don't maybe.

764
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 3: I mean my mom called me on Sunday and I

765
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: was going into day three of no sleep, and she

766
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 3: was like, how are you doing? And I was like, Mom,

767
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 3: I'm living the first line of my obituary. But I

768
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 3: said it more for like shock value than because I

769
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 3: actually believed it, And in retrospect, it might have been true.

770
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 3: I just wasn't thinking about it in that way. Like

771
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: we came out with a ton of lawsuits on our hands.

772
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: Talk about the loss that you filed, right.

773
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 4: So the travel band came down.

774
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: It was signed at four thirty pm on Friday the

775
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 3: twenty seventh, and we were tracking people coming in. So

776
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: we had clients who are coming in, and one of

777
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 3: them was a man named Hamid Darwish who had worked

778
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: for US Forces in a rock on a Ford operating

779
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 3: base for ten and a half years, which is relevant

780
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 3: for a number of reasons, one of which is that

781
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 3: to work on a FOB, you need to get a

782
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 3: military grade level security clearance every six months. So Hamid

783
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: had had twenty one military grade level security chicks. There

784
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: had been multiple attempts on his life, he had young kids,

785
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: and he was given this visa through a program that

786
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 3: Senators McCain and Kennedy had created in Congress to try

787
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: to protect those who had put their lives on the

788
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: line to assist our military, which I think if we

789
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 3: don't implement well, we're going to have trouble finding allies

790
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 3: in the future. And he showed up here and he

791
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 3: was handcuffed and locked in a room and they let

792
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: out his wife and kids and they came out crying,

793
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,479
Speaker 3: and we had their lawyer and their law students waiting

794
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 3: for them, and they said, you know, Hamid is locked

795
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 3: in a room and there's a bunch of other people

796
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 3: in the room with them, and we don't know what

797
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 3: to do. So I called a friend of mine from

798
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 3: law school, and because I'm not a litigator, and I.

799
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 4: Was like, what do we file?

800
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 3: And he was like, we need to file a habeas petition.

801
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 3: Habeas corpus literally means.

802
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: Like produce the body.

803
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's what says that you get like some

804
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 3: amount of trial if you're held in Guantanamo, Like the

805
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 3: US can't turn airports into a black site and detain

806
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 3: any one from a Muslim country.

807
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: Who looks charged.

808
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 4: You have to have a hearing in front of a judge.

809
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 3: And so my friend Justin Cox said, you know, we

810
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 3: should file a habeas corpus lawsuit, which was brilliant and

811
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 3: now he works for IRAP, which only took me like

812
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: a year and a half to effectuate. Then we called

813
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 3: our former mentor from Meal Law School, Mike Wishney, who said,

814
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 3: let's make it a class action which meant like, let's

815
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 3: file a habeas petition on behalf of anyone who might

816
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 3: be detained by the government anywhere in the country. And

817
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 3: then we looped in the Immigrants Rights Project at the ACLU,

818
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 3: the National Immigration Law Center, and then everyone stayed up

819
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: all night so that we could get the thing drafted

820
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 3: and on file by five o'clock in the morning, because

821
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 3: we wanted it filed before any international flights could take off,

822
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: because we didn't want them to be able to deport anybody.

823
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 3: And we were granted a hearing that night in Brooklyn

824
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: at seven point thirty and legal Learnt from the ACLU

825
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 3: argued it and Lee is like a ringer, just like

826
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: if you ever have an argument about due process and

827
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: immigration and you can get Lee to argue it for you,

828
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 3: like you should. You should definitely do that. You should

829
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 3: make sure he's so, but if he's not, he'll still win.

830
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: He likes a challenge for him.

831
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 4: We literally called him and we were like, Lee, what

832
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 4: are you doing right now? He's like, I'm in a bar.

833
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 4: What's going on.

834
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: We're like, we need you to go to Brooklyn and

835
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 3: argue this case right there. And he won, and so

836
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: we wan to eight thirty and the judge that everyone

837
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 3: has to be released, and the Customs and Border Protection

838
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: officials at the airport didn't believe us that we had

839
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 3: won this court decision. So Omar Jodwatt from the ACLU

840
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 3: tweeted out a picture of the court order. So you

841
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: had lawyers at airports all over the country like running

842
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: around showing customs officials the photo of Omer's Twitter feed.

843
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: On their phones and they obeyed that.

844
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, JFK.

845
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 3: We literally got a plane turned around on the runway

846
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 3: and they were trying to deport an Iranian Fulbright student

847
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: to Ukraine of all places, and she was on the

848
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 3: plane and she was on the phone with us, and

849
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 3: we were trying to decide like should we have her

850
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 3: stand up and make a fuss and get thrown off

851
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 3: the plane? And then we're like, no, we shouldn't do

852
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: that because she'll lose her visa. She does that, like

853
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 3: what jail, Yeah.

854
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: We're taking a break, stay with us. But when you

855
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: get the woman off the plane, when you argue the

856
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: case and you win the case and he gets off

857
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: the barstool and you have the Twitter picture, this is

858
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: like a great movie. Do you ever meet some of

859
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: these people whose lives you've affected, our lives you've changed,

860
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 1: oh for sure.

861
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 3: And I'm still in touch with some of them, and

862
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: we you know, when we have events, we try to

863
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 3: have clients come speak at the events because I think

864
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: it's really important that we're not speaking for people. But

865
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: we also have a lot of clients who don't want

866
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 3: to stay in touch.

867
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 4: You know.

868
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 3: I think a typical symptom of going through something really

869
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 3: traumatic is to want to just like put it all

870
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 3: behind you. And we're very tied up in that trauma,

871
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 3: like we're what happened before, right, And once you're here,

872
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 3: you don't want to deal with what happened before. So

873
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 3: some people want to stay in touch and some people don't.

874
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 3: And I, you know, I don't force it.

875
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: So even for people who the immigration issue is some

876
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: of this not in the forefront. The number one issue

877
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: is the economy and their paychecks, and number two is healthcare.

878
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: This ripping children away from their parents changed everything. I mean,

879
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: this becomes the image of the most heinous. What was

880
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: your response to that? I mean, I thin does your

881
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: organization have any role in that?

882
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 3: We actually won a big lawsuit on behalf of two

883
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: thy seven hundred unaccompanied kids in Central America who are

884
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 3: trying to reunite with a parent in the United States.

885
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 3: But you know, we don't have offices on the border.

886
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I took a lot of hope from that, actually,

887
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 3: which I know is strange, but.

888
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: I think this is the bottom that we've hit.

889
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: We made it the bottom, right, It didn't go further.

890
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 3: You know, the thing that was amazing about Airport Weekend

891
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 3: is that, like, we organized the lawyers, but nobody organized

892
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 3: the protesters. Totally spontaneous, thousands of Americans went out and

893
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 3: freezing shitty January weather to just be like, this is

894
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 3: not cool. The executive order was rescinded before the lawsuit.

895
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 3: The lawsuit we won said that they can't hold people.

896
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 3: But the one that we won right away wasn't about

897
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 3: sort of the legality of the order on its face.

898
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 3: It was the public pressure that got the administration to

899
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 3: rescind the executive order and the so called like chaos

900
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: at the airports, which I will forever be proud of.

901
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 3: And the same thing happened with the family separation policy

902
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 3: on the border. There were plenty of lawsuits about it

903
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 3: that you know, the lawsuits ultimately were victorious Congress like

904
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 3: fucked around, it didn't end up doing anything. What got

905
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 3: it to stop was just like the number of people

906
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 3: who stood up and said, like, this is not okay,

907
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: the number of journalists who refused to stop reporting on it. Ultimately,

908
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 3: it was just straight up public pressure that caused the

909
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 3: administration to rescind the policy. And it hasn't been totally rescinded, right,

910
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 3: there's still separating kids from families. Like it's not a

911
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: perfect solution, but as you watch, like so many of

912
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 3: the sort of systems to protect democracy and the rule

913
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 3: of law be dismantled, it does give me hope that

914
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 3: when something that gregious happens, people are still willing to

915
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: stand up and say like, this is an American and

916
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: that when they do, it means something.

917
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: In your mind. I'm assuming that you're capable of citing

918
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: a couple examples if you're willing. Are there any heroes

919
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: and the Senator of the House on this issue who

920
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: you think get it right about this issue?

921
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 3: Senator McCain was amazing on this issue. He was amazing

922
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: on refugee issues.

923
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is?

924
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 3: Because I think if you have served in the military, overseas.

925
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 3: You understand how important it is for our foreign policy

926
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 3: to have a humanitarian component. You understand that if the

927
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 3: US wants to be taken seriously as an enforcer of

928
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 3: national security, that that can't just be a stick, that

929
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 3: it needs to have a Carit also that we need

930
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 3: to take responsibility for sort of the peaceful side of

931
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 3: national security issues. And I think he understood that deeply.

932
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 3: Senator Shaheen has been great for us on these issues.

933
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to, you know, the new Senate and

934
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: the new House and seeing what we can do with them.

935
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 3: And I hope that I hope that there are more

936
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 3: heroes of the.

937
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: Six and a half million that it comprises your current

938
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: budget or roughly, that most of that money comes from.

939
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 3: Where it's fifty percent individuals, thirty percent foundations, and twenty

940
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 3: percent corporate. We do not take government funding.

941
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: Describe your relationship with the.

942
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 4: Promptmans substitute grandparents.

943
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, I've been very generous to you.

944
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 3: I mean they're just lovely, Like Charles is just hilarious

945
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 3: and sassy and has me to his house and this

946
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: is just like really.

947
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: Supportive and supports your work.

948
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 4: I wrap, yeah, but they've become family.

949
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: And I don't know as media and savvy with social

950
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: media at all important to you or no.

951
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 4: It is important.

952
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: I think it's tricky right now because I think earned

953
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 3: media doesn't have the impact that.

954
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 4: It did a couple of years ago.

955
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 3: I think there's so much crazy stuff happening all the

956
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 3: time that you just when you get a story in

957
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 3: the New York Times, it just doesn't mean what it

958
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 3: used to mean, and it doesn't stick the way it

959
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 3: used to stick. And you also you have an administration

960
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 3: that doesn't care when The New York.

961
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 4: Times says something.

962
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: One thing that I've become really interested in, and I

963
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 3: have a project that I've been working on for a while,

964
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: is sort of using popular culture. And how can you

965
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 3: sort of you know, like people maybe won't read New

966
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: York Times articles or won't register them, but like they'll

967
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 3: binge watch for fourteen hours like the newest season of whatever.

968
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 4: So Black Mirror, Yeah, yeah.

969
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: I can't watch Black Mirror because it freaks me out

970
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: too much. But you know, but so if you can

971
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 3: get like a narrative about a more positive or more

972
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 3: useful narrative about immigrants or refugees into a pop culture format,

973
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: I think that has a lot of promise as a

974
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: way to try to, you know, change hearts and minds.

975
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: What's next for you book? No, you're not interested in that.

976
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: You have time to reflect.

977
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 3: I reflect in a very like neurotic, anxious, obsessive way

978
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 3: that does not lend itself well to like overarching near it.

979
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: But I think people like you get things done.

980
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got some offers to write books, and I

981
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: was like, well, when you know so and so activists

982
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 3: wrote a book, like how did they do it? And

983
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 3: they're like, oh, they took book leave And I was like,

984
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 3: that's the last thing I'm going to do right now

985
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 3: is just be like, oh, well, I mean, I think

986
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 3: attention to any issue ebbs and flows, right. Like, we

987
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 3: definitely had our fifteen minutes around airport weekend. We were

988
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 3: aware at the time that it was fifteen minutes, and

989
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: so we approached it really strategically and said, you know,

990
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 3: what can we keep from this, Like what can we

991
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 3: hang on to that we can continue to use in

992
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 3: the future. And I'm continuing to sort of take that

993
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 3: approach of just you know, with the MacArthur like that's amazing.

994
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 3: I feel like it adds a lot of pressure on

995
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 3: me to make sure I'm leveraging it for the work

996
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 3: as much as possible.

997
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: You gonna pay yourself very much money.

998
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 3: Well now I don't have to, thankfully, thanks MacArthur. No

999
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 3: I do, okay, It's not like thirty rock money.

1000
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: No.

1001
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 3: I want to keep fighting this fight. I have a

1002
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 3: ton of ideas for what should be next, and the

1003
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 3: other staff at Arab has a bunch of ideas. And

1004
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: we've you know, two years ago we were a two

1005
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 3: million dollar organization, so we've grown pretty fast, and we're

1006
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 3: trying to manage that growth in a way where the

1007
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 3: you know, quality of our work is still high, in

1008
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 3: our organizational culture is still good, but also we're aggressively

1009
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: growing to fight these problems. And you know, so like

1010
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 3: whereas like if Hillary had been elected, we would be

1011
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 3: making a big play around climate refugees because to me,

1012
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 3: that's like the single biggest thing that we have to

1013
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 3: contend with, right Like, the first major manifestation of climate

1014
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 3: change is going to be and is already like the

1015
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: displacement of large numbers of people, and we have no

1016
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 3: no legal or systematic regime whatsoever to deal with that. Anywhere,

1017
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 3: I think I work a little better in a bunker

1018
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 3: mentality like getting back to pressure. I don't like pressure,

1019
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 3: but I've I've.

1020
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: Been process pressure.

1021
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 3: Resistance is, you know, creative resistance is a better fit

1022
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 3: for me than like scaling up widgets.

1023
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: You're one of those people who, like you know, where

1024
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: the world be without you? I mean that quieter that

1025
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 1: was tireless refugee activist and could have been stand up

1026
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: comic Becca Heller. Her organization, once again is the International

1027
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: Refugee Assistance Project at refuge Rights dot org. I'm Alec Baldwin.

1028
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio