WEBVTT - The Window

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<v Speaker 1>When the Hotel Statler opened, it had twenty two hundred

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<v Speaker 1>rooms in nineteen nineteen, that made it the largest hotel

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<v Speaker 1>in the world. Just across from Penn Station on Seventh

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<v Speaker 1>Avenue in New York City, the hotel had a real

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<v Speaker 1>old school charm for decades. Guests could put their clothing

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<v Speaker 1>and shoes in a servador, essentially a special cabinet that

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<v Speaker 1>allowed items to be passed to and from rooms without

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<v Speaker 1>guests having to interact with employees. It wasn't great for tipping,

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<v Speaker 1>since it eliminated the social presence of an outstretched hand,

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<v Speaker 1>but the servador service was clandestine private fitting since the

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<v Speaker 1>Statler was also a popular hangout for CIA operatives, including

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<v Speaker 1>one who checked out through a window. Every story you

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<v Speaker 1>read or here about Frank Olsen starts just like this

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<v Speaker 1>with his body pitching out of a tenth story win

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<v Speaker 1>dough at the Hotel Statler. It happens around two thirty

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<v Speaker 1>am on November ninety three. Olsen is a biological warfare

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<v Speaker 1>scientist working for the United States Army and the CIA,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's not well. He's in the city to get treatment.

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<v Speaker 1>Olsen has been exhibiting suspicious behavior enough to make him

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<v Speaker 1>a security risk. So Olsen is at the Statler, but

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<v Speaker 1>he's not alone. Robert Lashbrook, sleeping in the bed nearby,

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<v Speaker 1>is there to look out for his welfare. He doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>do a very good job of it, because one moment

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<v Speaker 1>Olsen is in bed, the next he's going out the window. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>that's not quite accurate. He goes out the window, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>but first he goes through the glass pane of the window,

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<v Speaker 1>shattering it. He doesn't even bother pulling up the blinds,

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<v Speaker 1>so he goes through those two. He falls for a

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<v Speaker 1>few seconds, then lands on the sidewalk below. Pedestrians crowd

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<v Speaker 1>around him, horrified. He's on his back and still in

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<v Speaker 1>his undershirt and shorts. He would soon succumb to his injuries,

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<v Speaker 1>but he wasn't dead yet. After he passes, and for

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<v Speaker 1>the next seventy years, Olsen's family, journalists, and even intelligence

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<v Speaker 1>operatives will search for the words he didn't have the

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<v Speaker 1>strength to utter. Did Frank Olsen die by suicide? Was

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<v Speaker 1>in an accident? Or did the CIA's grand experiment with

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<v Speaker 1>LSD finally go too far and prompt the sanctioned execution

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<v Speaker 1>of a government employee. The information may have been on

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<v Speaker 1>the tip of Frank Olson's tongue, but he couldn't answer,

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<v Speaker 1>and if his death was indeed a homicide, that silence

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<v Speaker 1>was the whole point. Frank Olson had seemed too much

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<v Speaker 1>and was in danger of unmasking the whole affair. Olsen

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't the only death on the pavement that night. Many

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<v Speaker 1>secrets of the Cold War, of cruel and outrageous human experimentation,

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<v Speaker 1>died with him. That's where Frank Olsen's story always ends,

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<v Speaker 1>and where it always begins, through the window and down

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<v Speaker 1>to the pavement. In a movie, the camera would pan

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<v Speaker 1>down as he fell. Instead, it should pan back up.

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<v Speaker 1>It should move past the windows and brick exterior of

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<v Speaker 1>the hotel Statler, past the curtains and flagpoles, and right

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<v Speaker 1>back into the room ten eighteen A, where Robert Lashbrook

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<v Speaker 1>is sitting bolt upright in his bed, confused, or at

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<v Speaker 1>least seemingly confused at what had just happened. When he

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<v Speaker 1>gets dressed and follows the police to the station, they'll

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<v Speaker 1>find a small slip of paper inside his pants pocket.

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<v Speaker 1>The camera should zoom in on it so you can

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<v Speaker 1>see the ink stains on the paper, the indentations of

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<v Speaker 1>the pen strokes, the paper is important. According to HP Albarelli,

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<v Speaker 1>the paper has a set of initials on it. G

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<v Speaker 1>W for George White, MH for Morgan Hall, White's alter ego.

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<v Speaker 1>And then address one Bedford Street, where George White was

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<v Speaker 1>conducting an illicit LSD campaign just a mile and a

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<v Speaker 1>half away. Maybe Frank Olson had been there, maybe he

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<v Speaker 1>was going there. Either way, his death would change everything. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>For I Heart Radio, this is Operation Midnight Climax and

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<v Speaker 1>I Heeart original podcast, I'm Noel Brown and this is

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<v Speaker 1>episode five The Window, Part one, a Living Nightmare. When

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<v Speaker 1>the CIA's chief chemist, Sidney Gottlieb hired George White, he

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<v Speaker 1>was looking for a psychedelic mercenary, a predator he could

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<v Speaker 1>unleash on the general population. When White sent back details

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<v Speaker 1>of his experiments in Greenwich Village, Gottlieb devoured them. But

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<v Speaker 1>those weren't enough for him. In Gottlieb's head, for America

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<v Speaker 1>to emerge victorious the Cold War, he had to know

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<v Speaker 1>everything about LSD and how it would affects people in

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<v Speaker 1>the intelligence field, starting with himself. On the surface, it

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<v Speaker 1>sounds almost ethical, Gottlieb claimed he'd administered asset to himself.

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<v Speaker 1>More than two hundred times. It was like a physician

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<v Speaker 1>following his own prescribed diet, But there was a key difference.

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<v Speaker 1>Gottlieb was a consenting subject. He knew exactly what he

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<v Speaker 1>was ingesting. But the drug works differently on people who

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<v Speaker 1>don't know they're being dosed, and as George White found out,

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<v Speaker 1>acid had an unpredictable effect on subjects. Bad trips sent

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<v Speaker 1>some people to rooftops to contemplate suicide, or landed them

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<v Speaker 1>in sanitariums LSD was a kind of psychic scalpel. In

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<v Speaker 1>the right hands, it could be beneficial. In the wrong hands,

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<v Speaker 1>it was assault, and make no mistake. In November nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>fifty three, Sidney Gottlieb committed widespread assault, and even though

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<v Speaker 1>George White wasn't anywhere near the CIA retreat where it happened,

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<v Speaker 1>the consequences would eventually shut down his whole New York operation.

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<v Speaker 1>That weekend, Gottlieb but organized retreat at Deep Creek Lodge

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<v Speaker 1>in Maryland for some of the CIA's chemists as well

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<v Speaker 1>as those who worked for the Army's Special Operations Division.

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<v Speaker 1>The two groups often worked together on various biochemical projects.

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<v Speaker 1>This was a world beyond drugs, one in which the

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<v Speaker 1>CIA sought ways to kill or incapacitate enemies using biological warfare.

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<v Speaker 1>If George White was a mercenary. The chemists of the

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<v Speaker 1>government supplied the weapons, and Frank Olsen was one of

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<v Speaker 1>the people who was there that weekend. As a chemist,

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<v Speaker 1>Frank Olsen had been recruited into the Army's Chemical Development Division,

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<v Speaker 1>though he was technically a CIA employee. He studied ways

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<v Speaker 1>to weaponize germs, obscuring them in shaving creams or insect repellents.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a lighter that, once flicked, would dispense a

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<v Speaker 1>lethal gas in a pocket spray that could induce pneumonia.

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<v Speaker 1>Olsen sometimes went to a secret Army base on Plumb

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<v Speaker 1>Island off of Long Island, where chemicals too dangerous for

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<v Speaker 1>the mainland were studied. In nineteen fifty, intelligence operatives released

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<v Speaker 1>a cloud of traceable but harmless bacteria over San Francisco

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<v Speaker 1>using large aerosol hoses. They called it Operations Sea Spray.

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<v Speaker 1>They wanted to see how far a chemical attack could travel.

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<v Speaker 1>Before long, eleven people checked into hospitals with urinary tract infections.

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<v Speaker 1>The microbe wasn't as harmless as they thought. When American

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<v Speaker 1>soldiers captured in Korea confessed to using biological weapons. The

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<v Speaker 1>CIA insisted it was brainwashing. Frank Olsen believed they were

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<v Speaker 1>telling the truth, that the anther acts and other deadly

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<v Speaker 1>pathogens he brewed in his lab were being used on

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<v Speaker 1>the enemy. He knew the chemicals were in the hands

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<v Speaker 1>of the United States because he had held them in

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<v Speaker 1>his own hands. Olsen was a lab geek, a man

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<v Speaker 1>of science. He was quiet and reserved, A family man

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<v Speaker 1>with a wife and three children. He didn't have the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of callousness intelligence operatives developed over time, yet he

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<v Speaker 1>was often called to the scene of experiments that would

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<v Speaker 1>rattle his conscience. Toxic clouds were administered to laboratory animals

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<v Speaker 1>like monkeys, their bodies being added to a rising pile.

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<v Speaker 1>Olsen witnessed fierce interrogations in foreign countries where humans writhed

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<v Speaker 1>in pain in response to experimental chemicals that would burn

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<v Speaker 1>their eyes or disrupt their breathing before killing them. Once

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<v Speaker 1>Olsen had visited a microbiological research lab at Porton Down

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<v Speaker 1>in Wiltshire, England. Volunteers had agreed to be dosed with

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<v Speaker 1>nerve gases. Olsen watched as one man collapsed in front

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<v Speaker 1>of him, foaming at the mouth before he died. Olson

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<v Speaker 1>later told a British psychiatrist named William Sergeant that he

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<v Speaker 1>had been to American and British testing sites in Frankfurt, Germany,

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<v Speaker 1>and that he'd seen something awful. Sergeant recommended Olsen never

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<v Speaker 1>be allowed back to Porton Down. He was a security risk.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyone with a conscience was a security risk. As an

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<v Speaker 1>expert in biological warfare, Olsen had been summoned to examine

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<v Speaker 1>the fallout of a mass hysteria event that occurred in

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<v Speaker 1>the small French town of Point Saint Aspri in August.

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<v Speaker 1>It's one of the strangest chapters in twentieth century history

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<v Speaker 1>and foreshadows the worst of George White's domestic exploits in

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<v Speaker 1>the years to come. Point Santa Spree is the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of small town in France people describe as idyllic. Classic

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<v Speaker 1>architecture is everywhere. A bridge made of stone extends over

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<v Speaker 1>the Rhone River, and the tiny streets act as arteries

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<v Speaker 1>for the residents to exist in a kind of suspended

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<v Speaker 1>state of simple living that sustained them for hundreds of years.

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<v Speaker 1>The Bouvier family hails from here, one of their own.

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<v Speaker 1>Jacqueline Bouvier became Jacqueline Kennedy. That simplicity, that isolation, may

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<v Speaker 1>have been why someone turned the dream of Point Santa

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<v Speaker 1>Spree into a living nightmare. A postal worker was in

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<v Speaker 1>the middle of his shift when he began to feel it,

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<v Speaker 1>a sensation. He was shrinking, growing smaller and smaller as

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<v Speaker 1>the small town around him grew larger and larger. He

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<v Speaker 1>saw and felt fire raging all around him. Snakes crawled

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<v Speaker 1>up his legs and around his arms, dragging them down.

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<v Speaker 1>He was descending into madness, and so were hundreds of

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<v Speaker 1>other residents. The townspeople began shrieking, crying, moaning. A man

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<v Speaker 1>was convinced he had transformed into a plane and jumped

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<v Speaker 1>out of a second story window, arms spread like wings.

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<v Speaker 1>He broke both of his legs, then stood up and

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<v Speaker 1>kept running, more terrified of whatever was chasing him than

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<v Speaker 1>the pain of his broken bones. Many grew so manic

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<v Speaker 1>they had to be herded away. The postal worker was

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<v Speaker 1>brought to a hospital and put in a straight jacket.

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<v Speaker 1>Three teens were chained to a bed. They were fighting

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<v Speaker 1>their own demons, and nothing could soothe them. Their mettal

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<v Speaker 1>bed frames shook as they struggled. Over the next few days,

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<v Speaker 1>more and more people were hospitalized or put in asylums

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<v Speaker 1>with hallucinations. One villager put it this way, I am dead,

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<v Speaker 1>and my head is made of copper, and I have

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<v Speaker 1>snakes in my stomach and they are burning me. At

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<v Speaker 1>least four people died. No one has ever conclusively proven

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<v Speaker 1>what happened in Point Santa Spree, but some blamed ergot

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<v Speaker 1>poisoning ergot, which is highly toxic, and large amounts may

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<v Speaker 1>have gotten into the bread in the local bakeries. Others

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<v Speaker 1>of theorized the CIA made Point Santa Spree one huge

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<v Speaker 1>chemical trial, which is why Olsen was in the vicinity

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<v Speaker 1>to assess the outcome. It was just another chapter, and

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<v Speaker 1>what he feared was a madness, not on the part

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<v Speaker 1>of the people, but in the corridors of American intelligence.

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<v Speaker 1>George White mentioned Point Cenisprie briefly in a letter to

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<v Speaker 1>a friend in nineteen fifty four. He called it the

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<v Speaker 1>Little French Villages Stormy epidemic. Stormy was a George White

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<v Speaker 1>slang term for LSD that was the dark side of

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<v Speaker 1>intelligence work, and Olsen's mood grew darker with it. Two

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<v Speaker 1>years later, Frank Olsen was one of the employees invited

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<v Speaker 1>to Sydney Gottlieb's retreat. Gottlieb wanted to make sure the

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<v Speaker 1>CIA and the army scientists at Fort Dietrich were working

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<v Speaker 1>in tandem, that they were on the same page. But,

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<v Speaker 1>and this was usually the case with Gottlieb, he had

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<v Speaker 1>another motive. He wanted to dose everyone there with LSD.

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<v Speaker 1>Gottlieb gathered the men in the lodge and gestured for

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<v Speaker 1>his colleague Robert Lashbrook to begin pouring drinks from a

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<v Speaker 1>bottle of Quantros, an orange flavored liqueur. Lashbrook filled glasses

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<v Speaker 1>with Quantros and then, of great discretion, added an ampule

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<v Speaker 1>of LSD to each. He handed the glasses to the

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<v Speaker 1>gathered scientists, and he and Gottlieb watched as they began

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<v Speaker 1>ingesting the concoction. Within twenty minutes, the men began to

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<v Speaker 1>experience the expected early symptoms confusion, hallucinations, fear. The severed

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<v Speaker 1>and mounted heads of hunted and captured deer in the

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<v Speaker 1>lodge began to stare them down their lips moving, gentlemen,

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<v Speaker 1>I assure you what you are feeling is completely normal.

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<v Speaker 1>You've all been administered a dose of LSD. Gottlieb spoke calmly,

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<v Speaker 1>like he was informing a group of people to proceed

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<v Speaker 1>to a fire exit. The men went off into their

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<v Speaker 1>own corners of consciousness, grappling with the newly open borders

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<v Speaker 1>of their minds. But unlike George white seemingly random drugging

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<v Speaker 1>of Linda King and Barbara Smythe, Gottlieb took a special

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<v Speaker 1>interest in how Frank Olson reacted. He'd been earmarked as

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<v Speaker 1>a possible problem. Gottlie pulled Olson aside and began asking

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<v Speaker 1>him questions, Questions that might one day be posed to

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<v Speaker 1>Olsen by enemy agents, the invisible Soviets who loomed large

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<v Speaker 1>in the American imagination of the day, Questions that might

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<v Speaker 1>wear down someone under the influence of both drugs and morality.

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<v Speaker 1>What exactly was said in those hours, only Sidney Gotlieb

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<v Speaker 1>could answer, and when he was eventually asked years later,

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<v Speaker 1>he wouldn't. But we know what happened. After the retreat

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<v Speaker 1>came to an end, Frank Olson returned home and Withdrew

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<v Speaker 1>his wife and children were greeted by a husband and

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<v Speaker 1>father who seemed more uncertain about his work than ever Brad.

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<v Speaker 1>It was simply the accumulation of horrors Frank Olsen had witnessed,

0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.159
<v Speaker 1>or maybe it was the LSD tearing down walls he

0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:12.359
<v Speaker 1>had erected in his mind to compartmentalize his responsibilities. Something

0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:17.080
<v Speaker 1>had shifted and Olsen wanted out. He went to his

0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:21.879
<v Speaker 1>immediate supervisor, Lieutenant Colonel Vincent Ruett, and said he was resigning.

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.240
<v Speaker 1>Ruett begged him to reconsider, not to do anything. Rash

0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:31.760
<v Speaker 1>ru had also phoned Gottlieb to express his concern. Remember,

0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.600
<v Speaker 1>Olsen was one of perhaps only two dozen people in

0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.560
<v Speaker 1>the world who had knowledge of the CIA's top secret

0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.920
<v Speaker 1>experiments like mk Ultra. For one of them to abruptly

0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:47.879
<v Speaker 1>announced they were finished done well, it wasn't possible. It

0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.360
<v Speaker 1>was akin to a mafia member turning up one day

0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.440
<v Speaker 1>and saying, is giving up the life. Some places don't

0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 1>have an exit door. Gottlieb told Ruett and Lashbrook to

0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:01.919
<v Speaker 1>take Olson to New York City, where he saw a

0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.960
<v Speaker 1>doctor named Harold Abramson. He was an allergist who was

0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.520
<v Speaker 1>giving LSD to his patients on behalf of the CIA.

0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.960
<v Speaker 1>If Olsen revealed something he shouldn't it would be okay.

0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Abramson was one of them. He prescribed sedatives in Bourbon,

0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.160
<v Speaker 1>but Olson's mood didn't improve. He didn't want to see

0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:27.240
<v Speaker 1>his family, He kept insisting he wanted to, in his words, disappear.

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 1>They went to Long Island to see Abramson again, this

0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.200
<v Speaker 1>time at his home, then went back to New York.

0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.080
<v Speaker 1>One night, Olsen wandered out into the streets, throwing away

0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.840
<v Speaker 1>his wallet and identification cards, a gesture that seemed to

0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:48.399
<v Speaker 1>indicate he wanted to throw away his government identity, but

0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:55.480
<v Speaker 1>he couldn't. Gottlieb would never allow that. They convinced Olsen

0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.200
<v Speaker 1>he would be best off in a sanitarium in Maryland

0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:02.640
<v Speaker 1>to get round the clock care. He seemed agreeable, if

0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.440
<v Speaker 1>you believe Lashbrook. He even seemed happy. The two men

0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:08.720
<v Speaker 1>planned to drive back to Maryland the next day to

0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.639
<v Speaker 1>check Olson into a facility. They got a room at

0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:16.840
<v Speaker 1>the Hotel Statler. They went to bed. When Lashbrook woke up,

0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.720
<v Speaker 1>Olsen was already on the pavement where he would never

0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:26.960
<v Speaker 1>regain consciousness. A flurry of phone calls followed, which the

0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:31.679
<v Speaker 1>hotel's telephone operator overheard. Lashbrook called Abramson's telling that Olson

0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.600
<v Speaker 1>was quote gone, not that he had died by suicide

0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.040
<v Speaker 1>or jumped or fell out of a window, but just gone.

0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.200
<v Speaker 1>The authorities were called. They talked to Lashbrook, who told

0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:47.760
<v Speaker 1>them he awoke to the sound of crashing glass. At

0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.920
<v Speaker 1>the police station. He emptied his pockets, which had a

0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.879
<v Speaker 1>slip of paper with George White's address and initials on it.

0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.639
<v Speaker 1>Frank Olson's family was notified. No one told them Olson

0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.720
<v Speaker 1>had been dosed with LSD days prior to his death.

0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:06.000
<v Speaker 1>The whole affair was documented as a suicide. Olsen had

0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:09.680
<v Speaker 1>either fallen or jumped out of the window. No one

0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:14.199
<v Speaker 1>said he was pushed. But if he had been pushed,

0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.360
<v Speaker 1>If Sydney gottlie But decided Frank Olsen had become too

0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.520
<v Speaker 1>dangerous to try and contain, and arranged for someone to

0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:26.240
<v Speaker 1>push him, who would it be. Certainly not Gotlei himself,

0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.600
<v Speaker 1>who was nowhere near the Hotel Statler that night, and

0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:34.119
<v Speaker 1>certainly not Robert Lashbrook, who was a CIA employee, not

0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:39.280
<v Speaker 1>a field operative, not someone with experience, nothing out of life.

0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:43.080
<v Speaker 1>If you were Sydney Gottlieb and you needed to dispose

0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:50.399
<v Speaker 1>of Frank Olson, whose number would you call at his

0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 1>federal Bureau of Narcotics Office, George White kept a photo

0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:58.160
<v Speaker 1>of a corpse on the wall, a real corpse. When

0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.120
<v Speaker 1>people would ask why an obvious as many people did,

0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.040
<v Speaker 1>White explained that the photo was of a spy he

0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.280
<v Speaker 1>had been forced to kill with his bare hands during

0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:10.679
<v Speaker 1>the war. He was, after all, a graduate of Camp X,

0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.800
<v Speaker 1>the school of mayhem and murder. To take a human

0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.439
<v Speaker 1>life in the name of national security was nothing to

0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.720
<v Speaker 1>be ashamed of. To White, it was something to put

0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:25.000
<v Speaker 1>in a frame. When Sydney Gottley decided Frank Olsen was

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.360
<v Speaker 1>a problem, he had to have called someone. And while

0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:32.000
<v Speaker 1>there was no shortage of CIA assassins, Godly had few

0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.119
<v Speaker 1>men he could trust, even fewer who knew about him

0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.760
<v Speaker 1>k Ultra and the effects of LSD on the mind,

0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:41.600
<v Speaker 1>and only one with a photo of a dead man

0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:52.879
<v Speaker 1>on his wall. Part two, The Coincidence. So where was

0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.439
<v Speaker 1>George White during all of this? Frank Olson's trip to

0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:00.159
<v Speaker 1>New York, his visits with Robert Lashbrook, his wandering the

0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.600
<v Speaker 1>city streets, and its plunge from a ten story window.

0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:07.480
<v Speaker 1>If Sydney Gottlieb had his way, White would have been

0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:11.080
<v Speaker 1>glued to Olson the entire time. Got Leave had called

0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.600
<v Speaker 1>White to ask him to do exactly that, to escort

0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Olson back to Maryland and right into a mental health facility.

0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:22.240
<v Speaker 1>The conversation got far enough along that White scribbled down

0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:27.200
<v Speaker 1>Frank Olsen's home telephone number. But then White told Godle

0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:31.440
<v Speaker 1>something he had never told him before. I can't said,

0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:35.959
<v Speaker 1>mind you, this wasn't necessarily an assignment to get rid

0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.359
<v Speaker 1>of Frank Olsen, just escorting him around at the time.

0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:44.640
<v Speaker 1>But White said no, and the reason was something Godlie

0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:51.560
<v Speaker 1>couldn't argue with. George White's mother was dying, so White

0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:55.639
<v Speaker 1>got on a plane on November eleven nine and headed

0:22:55.640 --> 0:23:01.399
<v Speaker 1>straight for Carl's Bad, California. Her funeral was novemb He

0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:05.560
<v Speaker 1>didn't return to New York until December. That meant White

0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.880
<v Speaker 1>had missed the Deep Creek Lodge meeting, Frank Olsen's slow

0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:14.840
<v Speaker 1>descent into despair and his death by weeks. On both sides.

0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.560
<v Speaker 1>If anyone could claim they had virtually nothing to do

0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:21.760
<v Speaker 1>with Olson's death, it would have to have been George White.

0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.280
<v Speaker 1>But here's a recurring thing about White. He didn't need

0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 1>to be on the scene to be involved. White could

0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:33.680
<v Speaker 1>put wheels in motion. He was, after all, not physically

0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.520
<v Speaker 1>present for dozens of arrests in the famous Hip Sing

0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Tong drug ring case that made his career, But none

0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.840
<v Speaker 1>of those arrests would have been possible without him. So

0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:46.840
<v Speaker 1>if White couldn't have been around Frank Olsen in the

0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:54.400
<v Speaker 1>last weeks of his life, what could he have done? Hello, Pierre,

0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:59.480
<v Speaker 1>It's g Pierre Lafitte. The name sounds like a French

0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:02.480
<v Speaker 1>capper lar in a detective novel, and that wouldn't be

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:06.119
<v Speaker 1>too far off. Lafitte was a narcotics agent and a

0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:10.119
<v Speaker 1>close ally of Whites. He was instrumental in making Whites

0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:14.280
<v Speaker 1>New York lsd pad a hopping social scene, recruiting guests

0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:16.960
<v Speaker 1>for White to dose and then watching from behind a

0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:22.800
<v Speaker 1>two way mirror for the effects to materialize. White trusted

0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:25.879
<v Speaker 1>Lafitte enough to bring him into an exclusive inner circle,

0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:28.760
<v Speaker 1>one in which he got c I a security clearance.

0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:32.840
<v Speaker 1>He knew a lot of the government's dirty secrets. He

0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:36.720
<v Speaker 1>was a world traveler, having helped White on drug excursions overseas.

0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:40.240
<v Speaker 1>Pierre Lafitte was the kind of man who might need

0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:42.399
<v Speaker 1>to keep track of which name he was using on

0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:48.280
<v Speaker 1>any given day. There was something else about Lafitte Earlier

0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:51.440
<v Speaker 1>that year, White had made arrangements for Lafitte to begin

0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:55.080
<v Speaker 1>working as a bell captain at a hotel, the Hotel Statler.

0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Could it have been a simple moonlighting job. That seems unlikely.

0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:05.159
<v Speaker 1>Just a month earlier, Lafitte had made national headlines for

0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 1>his undercover work recovering paintings stolen from a church in Kentucky.

0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:13.960
<v Speaker 1>This was something else White might have wanted to keep

0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:17.720
<v Speaker 1>watch on the drug investigation there. He might have suspected

0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:21.280
<v Speaker 1>hotel employees of some kind of wrongdoing. He needed a

0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:24.080
<v Speaker 1>pair of eyes the Statler for reasons that have never

0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:30.840
<v Speaker 1>explicitly been spelled out. So out of the dozens or

0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.199
<v Speaker 1>even hundreds of hotels in New York City, why did

0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:37.719
<v Speaker 1>Robert Lashbrook book himself and Frank Olsen into the Hotel

0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:42.520
<v Speaker 1>Statler the night of Olsen's death? Of all the hotels

0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:45.679
<v Speaker 1>in Manhattan, why did those two just happen to be

0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:48.760
<v Speaker 1>in the one hotel. Pierre Lafitte had the freedom to

0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:52.280
<v Speaker 1>roam where he was a familiar face to hotel employees,

0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:57.320
<v Speaker 1>where he could, if he wanted, unlock any hotel room

0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:01.399
<v Speaker 1>door that had something he wanted on the other side.

0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:04.879
<v Speaker 1>When White had to turn down got leave because he

0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:07.680
<v Speaker 1>had to be in California. He asked Lafitte to keep

0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:12.000
<v Speaker 1>an eye on Olsen to monitor the situation. We know

0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:15.439
<v Speaker 1>Lashbrook had White's initials and pad address, as though he

0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:17.920
<v Speaker 1>expected to make contact with White at some point during

0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:23.439
<v Speaker 1>the trip. Maybe White was expected back earlier. Then Olsen

0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:31.199
<v Speaker 1>died by suicide. Allegedly, it was always a strange premise

0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:34.200
<v Speaker 1>to begin with the idea he would launch himself through

0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:39.119
<v Speaker 1>a window. No matter how despondent someone becomes. They're easier ways,

0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:42.480
<v Speaker 1>and most people would at least bother to pull up

0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:50.440
<v Speaker 1>the blinds. First. Decades later, Frank's son Eric Olsen would

0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:53.760
<v Speaker 1>walk into room ten eighteen A and see how small

0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:57.240
<v Speaker 1>it was, how unlikely it was that anyone could get

0:26:57.240 --> 0:27:01.200
<v Speaker 1>a running start to launch themselves out the window. Olsen

0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:04.919
<v Speaker 1>had even tracked down a long retired Sidney Gottlieb, asking

0:27:05.000 --> 0:27:08.640
<v Speaker 1>him what had happened to his father. Gottlieb would say

0:27:08.680 --> 0:27:13.359
<v Speaker 1>only that everyone, Gottlieb the CIA Olson had perhaps gone

0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:16.560
<v Speaker 1>too far in their search for mind control, but he

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:21.679
<v Speaker 1>still insisted Olsen had died by suicide. He even suggested

0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:24.679
<v Speaker 1>Eric find a support group for children whose fathers had

0:27:24.720 --> 0:27:32.439
<v Speaker 1>taken their own lives. Eric took another approach in he

0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:35.520
<v Speaker 1>had his father's body exhumed so a professor of law

0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:38.960
<v Speaker 1>and forensic science could examine him. Eric had wanted to

0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:41.560
<v Speaker 1>wait until his mother had passed away before pursuing his

0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:44.520
<v Speaker 1>hunch that there was something amiss about his father's death

0:27:45.160 --> 0:27:50.320
<v Speaker 1>that Sydney Gottlieb was lying. The autopsy was a fascinating

0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:54.040
<v Speaker 1>look at the final moments of Frank Olston's life, articulating

0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:57.679
<v Speaker 1>more and more of the words he couldn't speak. It

0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:02.480
<v Speaker 1>revealed Olsen had a previously undis closed head injury, ahematoma

0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:06.400
<v Speaker 1>on the left side. He may have been struck by

0:28:06.440 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 1>a blunt object before landing on the pavement. Who hit him,

0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:15.960
<v Speaker 1>not Lashbrook, probably, but someone could have opened the door

0:28:16.080 --> 0:28:20.000
<v Speaker 1>to ten eighteen A that night. Someone who confronted Olsen,

0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:23.280
<v Speaker 1>who wanted to orchestrate something that looked like a suicide.

0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:27.480
<v Speaker 1>Someone who was following a CIA manu on the Ideal

0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:31.560
<v Speaker 1>Methods of Eliminating a target, a document that was later

0:28:31.640 --> 0:28:39.600
<v Speaker 1>declassified in and described preferred method of murder. The most

0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:43.960
<v Speaker 1>efficient accident in simple assassination is a fall of seventy

0:28:44.000 --> 0:28:49.520
<v Speaker 1>five ft or more onto a hard surface, elevator shafts, stairwells,

0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:53.440
<v Speaker 1>unscreened windows, and bridges will serve. In chase cases, it

0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:56.720
<v Speaker 1>will usually be necessary to stun or drug the subject

0:28:56.960 --> 0:29:00.920
<v Speaker 1>before dropping him. Care is required to en No wound

0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:05.520
<v Speaker 1>or condition not attributable to the fall is discernible after death.

0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:12.880
<v Speaker 1>The facts of Frank Olsen's death or that he was

0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:17.000
<v Speaker 1>dosed with LSD in November of nine and didn't react

0:29:17.040 --> 0:29:20.040
<v Speaker 1>well to it, He had already been concerned about the

0:29:20.080 --> 0:29:22.560
<v Speaker 1>kind of work he was being asked to do. He

0:29:22.600 --> 0:29:25.320
<v Speaker 1>was checked into a hotel that was very familiar to

0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:28.200
<v Speaker 1>the CIA, with a former Bell captain who would have

0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:31.800
<v Speaker 1>done virtually anything George White or Sydney Gottlieb would have

0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:36.320
<v Speaker 1>told him to do. It doesn't mean Pierre Lafitte murdered

0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Frank Olson. It's a theory, maybe even a fanciful one,

0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:44.320
<v Speaker 1>And if we stopped there, maybe we could say it's

0:29:44.360 --> 0:29:49.800
<v Speaker 1>all a bit strange but mostly circumstantial, if we stopped there.

0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:55.360
<v Speaker 1>Following Olson's death, White felt compelled to make sure his

0:29:55.440 --> 0:29:59.400
<v Speaker 1>friend and colleague Pierre Lafitte got out of town. White

0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.920
<v Speaker 1>arranged Lafitte to travel to St. Petersburg, Florida, and stay

0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:05.480
<v Speaker 1>at a property owned by one of White's friends, a

0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:10.000
<v Speaker 1>well known drug kingpin. If Lafitte had nothing to do

0:30:10.040 --> 0:30:13.600
<v Speaker 1>with Frank Olson's murder, why was George White so insistent

0:30:13.720 --> 0:30:16.240
<v Speaker 1>that Lafitte get out of the state and stash himself

0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:19.280
<v Speaker 1>away on the estate of a renowned mafioso for an

0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:39.880
<v Speaker 1>indeterminate period of time. Part three shut it down. The

0:30:40.000 --> 0:30:44.000
<v Speaker 1>months following Frank Olsen's death were memorable for everyone. The

0:30:44.040 --> 0:30:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Olsen's got repeated visits by Vincent Ruett, Olson's former boss,

0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:52.280
<v Speaker 1>who tried to console the family. The CIA could tell

0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:55.280
<v Speaker 1>them only that Olsen had gone out the window. That

0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:58.200
<v Speaker 1>he had been dosed with LSD would not be disclosed

0:30:58.240 --> 0:31:02.280
<v Speaker 1>for another twenty years. When The Washington Post obtained classified

0:31:02.320 --> 0:31:05.480
<v Speaker 1>documents that referred to a CIA employee who had fallen

0:31:05.480 --> 0:31:09.760
<v Speaker 1>out of a window. The Olsen's knew immediately the story

0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:15.760
<v Speaker 1>referred to Frank. In nineteen five, the same year chevy

0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Chase was impersonating Gerald Ford as a clumsy incompetent, the

0:31:19.920 --> 0:31:22.960
<v Speaker 1>President invited the Olsen family to the White House to

0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:28.120
<v Speaker 1>make an apology. They accepted a financial settlement in exchange

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:30.640
<v Speaker 1>for agreeing not to sue the government. Over the death.

0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:35.320
<v Speaker 1>This was before the autopsy, before it looked more and

0:31:35.400 --> 0:31:38.000
<v Speaker 1>more like Olsen had been scrubbed from the world with

0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:44.000
<v Speaker 1>great deliberation. Of course, Sidney Gottlieb knew what had happened,

0:31:44.600 --> 0:31:47.600
<v Speaker 1>and while his superiors the CIA were fuzzy on the details,

0:31:48.080 --> 0:31:50.720
<v Speaker 1>they knew that Olsen's death was related to god Leave's

0:31:50.760 --> 0:31:57.080
<v Speaker 1>increasingly out of control LSD program. People began asking Gotleib questions,

0:31:57.920 --> 0:32:02.120
<v Speaker 1>questions he didn't particularly care to answer. He was used

0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:06.560
<v Speaker 1>to autonomy, to being left to his own devices. Now

0:32:06.720 --> 0:32:09.959
<v Speaker 1>there was a threat of oversight. He and Lashbrook were

0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:17.360
<v Speaker 1>given a reprimand Lashbrook left the agency. Gottlieb stayed, but

0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:21.840
<v Speaker 1>the CIA's psychological warfare program had been put on notice.

0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Gottlieb wasn't prone to panic, but in light of the

0:32:29.920 --> 0:32:34.000
<v Speaker 1>controversy surrounding Frank Olsen, the idea of George White drugging

0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:37.920
<v Speaker 1>hapless civilians all over New York City suddenly seemed unwise.

0:32:38.840 --> 0:32:43.600
<v Speaker 1>Gottlieb phoned White shut it down. George said, I've only

0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:47.360
<v Speaker 1>just gotten started. It's we need to shut it down.

0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:52.880
<v Speaker 1>White broke his lease at eighty one Bedford Street, where

0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:56.720
<v Speaker 1>he'd been doing brisk business as Morgan Hall LSD provocateur,

0:32:57.640 --> 0:33:00.560
<v Speaker 1>and it probably broke his heart a little too. He'd

0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:02.960
<v Speaker 1>been at it for only six months before Godli pulled

0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:07.200
<v Speaker 1>the plug. It struck him as slightly unfair. It was Godlib,

0:33:07.280 --> 0:33:11.600
<v Speaker 1>after all, who had dosed Frank Olsen, not White. Even

0:33:11.680 --> 0:33:14.680
<v Speaker 1>though White had himself released countless people into the streets

0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:18.760
<v Speaker 1>of the city suffering from hallucinations, he'd covered his tracks well.

0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:22.600
<v Speaker 1>He hadn't gotten sloppy and targeted a high profile government

0:33:22.600 --> 0:33:27.840
<v Speaker 1>intelligence operative the way Godly pad. For a time, White

0:33:27.840 --> 0:33:31.120
<v Speaker 1>focused on his narcotics work. He was still an employee

0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:36.280
<v Speaker 1>with the Narcotics Bureau, working to erase the scourge of marijuana, opium, heroin,

0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:40.520
<v Speaker 1>cocaine and other drugs being delivered into the country by day,

0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:44.040
<v Speaker 1>even as he distributed them to innocent people at night.

0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:48.120
<v Speaker 1>But the past few months had been extremely hard on White.

0:33:48.680 --> 0:33:52.840
<v Speaker 1>His mother had died, Frank Olsen had disrupted his LSD projects.

0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:59.680
<v Speaker 1>For a brief period, George White seemed to submit to

0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:02.720
<v Speaker 1>a few feeling of melancholy. It comes through in the

0:34:02.720 --> 0:34:05.320
<v Speaker 1>correspondence he wrote to friends and colleagues at the time,

0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:10.279
<v Speaker 1>some of which resides at Stanford University. There's a sense

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.720
<v Speaker 1>of loss, not only for his mother but for his work.

0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:18.520
<v Speaker 1>Without the pad the CIA safe house, White was just

0:34:18.600 --> 0:34:22.799
<v Speaker 1>another cop. He had once again become what he had

0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:30.439
<v Speaker 1>always feared. Average His letters, hundreds of them, are often

0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:34.399
<v Speaker 1>innocuous in the extreme, speaking of travel and inquiring about

0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:40.719
<v Speaker 1>mutual friends. At first glance, none seem particularly incriminating, But

0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:44.520
<v Speaker 1>if you know about Pierre Lafitte and the Hotel Statler

0:34:45.120 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 1>and Frank Olsen, some passages take on a different meaning.

0:34:53.239 --> 0:34:57.440
<v Speaker 1>In October n White wrote a letter to Garland Williams,

0:34:57.840 --> 0:35:00.680
<v Speaker 1>one of the supervisors at the Narcotics Bureau and White's

0:35:00.680 --> 0:35:09.719
<v Speaker 1>good friend. It's cryptic, deliberately so and unsettling. White makes

0:35:09.719 --> 0:35:13.080
<v Speaker 1>two mentions of what he calls the Oldsen thing and

0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:16.160
<v Speaker 1>how it's behind him. Of course, he could just mean

0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:19.439
<v Speaker 1>the pressure over the incident was winding down. But then

0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:23.239
<v Speaker 1>he writes, our friend decided that his term at the

0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Statler was overextended. White seems to be referring to Pierre

0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Lafitte because he goes on to say, maybe after our

0:35:33.680 --> 0:35:36.240
<v Speaker 1>friend returns from his jaunt out west, he can return

0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:39.920
<v Speaker 1>to France for a few weeks. I suspect his moonlighting

0:35:39.960 --> 0:35:43.640
<v Speaker 1>work at NYC Hotels is over once and for all.

0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:49.719
<v Speaker 1>Teen loved him in his Bellman's office. Involved or not,

0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:55.640
<v Speaker 1>George White was profoundly affected by Frank Wilson's death. It

0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:59.080
<v Speaker 1>meant his work as a man possessed of secret knowledge

0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:09.040
<v Speaker 1>was her. People have never stopped asking questions about Frank

0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:12.399
<v Speaker 1>Olson's death, but they stopped asking enough in nineteen fifty

0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:15.000
<v Speaker 1>four for Sydney Gottleib to feel like the worst was

0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:18.839
<v Speaker 1>behind him. The CIA had forced him to pause mk Ultra,

0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:22.560
<v Speaker 1>but not to dismantle it. The CIA was able to

0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:25.320
<v Speaker 1>enter into a new contract with drug maker Eli Lily

0:36:25.719 --> 0:36:31.040
<v Speaker 1>for more LSD and tonnage quantities mass amounts. So in

0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:35.000
<v Speaker 1>late nineteen fifty four, a rejuvenated Sydney Gottleib traveled to

0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:37.720
<v Speaker 1>New York to pay a visit to his dejected friend,

0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:42.440
<v Speaker 1>George White. Gottlieb explained that the LSD experiment in New

0:36:42.480 --> 0:36:46.319
<v Speaker 1>York was done and done for good. There would be

0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:50.440
<v Speaker 1>no grand reopening of eighty one Bedford Street. Naturally, White

0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:55.239
<v Speaker 1>was disappointed. Let me ask you something, Geo. You're from California,

0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:58.520
<v Speaker 1>aren't you born and raised? You want to go back?

0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:03.680
<v Speaker 1>The CIA didn't want to get rid of George White.

0:37:04.200 --> 0:37:06.120
<v Speaker 1>They just needed to get rid of New York City.

0:37:07.160 --> 0:37:10.840
<v Speaker 1>George White could relocate to another hip community, one bursting

0:37:10.880 --> 0:37:14.879
<v Speaker 1>with liberal thinkers, an entire population full of people who

0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:17.719
<v Speaker 1>were probably high on drugs already. We want you to

0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:23.320
<v Speaker 1>move to San Francisco. White was ecstatic, and then Gottlieb

0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:26.880
<v Speaker 1>took out a manual, one written exclusively for the CIA.

0:37:28.040 --> 0:37:33.919
<v Speaker 1>This wasn't the assassination manual, but something new. White looked

0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:36.920
<v Speaker 1>down at the cover. It was an academic primer on

0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:41.480
<v Speaker 1>the best way to extract information using drugs and sex.

0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Gottlieb smiled, sid this is the greatest day of my life.

0:37:49.200 --> 0:38:20.000
<v Speaker 1>George White's climax was still ahead of him. H Operation

0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:23.400
<v Speaker 1>Midnight Climax is hosted by Noel Brown. This show is

0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:27.319
<v Speaker 1>written by Jake Rosson, editing, sound design and mixing by

0:38:27.400 --> 0:38:32.480
<v Speaker 1>Ernie Indradette and Natasha Jacobs. Original music by Aaron Kaufman.

0:38:33.480 --> 0:38:36.400
<v Speaker 1>Research and fact checking by Austin Thompson and Maurica Brown.

0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Show logo by Lucy Quintinia. Special thanks this episode to

0:38:42.080 --> 0:38:46.400
<v Speaker 1>David Crumholtz and Ted Ramy. Julian Weller is our supervising producer.

0:38:47.280 --> 0:38:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Our Executive producers are Jason English and Mangesha ticket Ter

0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:53.000
<v Speaker 1>See you next week.