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Speaker 1: Sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand.
Speaker 1: You never know stories of things we simply don't know
Speaker 1: the answer too. Hey guys, welcome to another episode of
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways the podcast. I Am Devin, joined per usual
Speaker 1: by Joe and Steve. They can't even see the end.
Speaker 1: I got to do it for him. You got to
Speaker 1: do everything. I am helpless. You are Den does everything
Speaker 1: around here. It's true, I do, I do everything. Um,
Speaker 1: this week we're going to talk about a mystery, or
Speaker 1: maybe a lot of mysteries, or maybe just one mystery.
Speaker 1: Conspiracy could be a couple of dozen mysteries here, could
Speaker 1: be could be a lot of spiracy. Yeah, show Steve
Speaker 1: keeps trying to say a word conspiracy. Yeah, he thinks
Speaker 1: that's the right word. It's yeah, it's pronounced bilthy. Controversy, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that one. That one. That one's actually pretty accurate. And
Speaker 1: before we get too terribly far into this or inmate
Speaker 1: at all, it was a listeners suggestion. Um, by Rob
Speaker 1: about a million years ago or like a year in
Speaker 1: February of two. Well, if you're a bacteria, that just
Speaker 1: about a million years, it's true. Yeah, Or if you
Speaker 1: live on Pluto. Wait, no, opposite, if you live on Pluto,
Speaker 1: it's about half a day. Sorry, sorry everyone. Okay, So
Speaker 1: thanks Rob, Okay. So let's do a quick overview of
Speaker 1: this case, real quick quick click, quick quick click between
Speaker 1: nineteen two and nineteen eighty eight, or maybe nineteen depending
Speaker 1: on how you look at it, five or twenty six
Speaker 1: depending sign tists slash humans or who were employed by
Speaker 1: G e C. Marconi or its affiliates or closely related
Speaker 1: to G e C. Marconi, which, by the way, it
Speaker 1: was a very large British defense contract. Um, they died,
Speaker 1: especially especially they really the big die off was really
Speaker 1: the first for mus Yeah. And now you may be saying, Devin,
Speaker 1: it's not weird for people to die. What's going on?
Speaker 1: This was a huge company. Well, listener, you're right, it's
Speaker 1: not weird for people to die. But these people were
Speaker 1: all involved in a lot of stuff like you know
Speaker 1: the development of the Stingray torpedo, or like Star Wars,
Speaker 1: the Lucasfilms thing well, actually it was named after lucasfilm thing.
Speaker 1: Literally it was. But that's actually what the media dubbed
Speaker 1: a project that was going on with the Strategic Defense
Speaker 1: Initiative Organization in the United States, primarily our allies were
Speaker 1: helping us. Yeah, roll Reagan um. But the media called
Speaker 1: it star Wars, so we're calling it star Wars. Damn it.
Speaker 1: We'll talk more about Star Wars in a second. Mostly
Speaker 1: the thing you should be paying hinged to is the
Speaker 1: Stingray torpedo, but also Star Wars. I thought it was
Speaker 1: the Jedi Knights. No, shut up. You can't make jokes
Speaker 1: about that all the time. I can't do. Okay, These
Speaker 1: slash twenty six scientists slash people all died in different ways, well,
Speaker 1: most of them died in different ways. A lot of
Speaker 1: them actually died in the same way. Again, we'll get
Speaker 1: to that. Some of the circumstances were a little hanky
Speaker 1: and some of them not. In all of them, it
Speaker 1: was a kind of tight timeline for all these people
Speaker 1: to have died in these like kind of mysterious ways.
Speaker 1: Some of them are definitely suspects, some of them are
Speaker 1: definitely not. But it's a Cold war plot. Well, it
Speaker 1: might be right. I mean, that's the whole alleged conspiracy
Speaker 1: is that actually these people were all in on some
Speaker 1: really highly classified information and that's kind of weird. It's
Speaker 1: kind of weird that they all started to die off.
Speaker 1: I can I can see how we'd raised his eyebrows. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think the way we're going to approach this
Speaker 1: case is it's going to be another Devin lists and
Speaker 1: talks for a long time case because I like those
Speaker 1: right now apparently, but we're going to talk about uh,
Speaker 1: star Wars and the Stingray Torpedo, just like really basic overview,
Speaker 1: and then we're going to talk about the deaths, and
Speaker 1: then we'll talk about theories. Okay, so we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about star Wars, the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization. I'm just
Speaker 1: going to call it the s d I oh and
Speaker 1: the Stingray Torpedo, and most people just call it sd I. No.
Speaker 1: I like sd I. Oh, it's more comprehensive that. Ok. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't don't do that. I'm just gonna abbreviate everything.
Speaker 1: People hate it when we do that. We do so.
Speaker 1: In the nineties sixties, the Royal Navy started to think
Speaker 1: that maybe they should start developing their own torpedoes because
Speaker 1: they were buying them from the US. They were, And
Speaker 1: not that there's anything wrong with the U S. Torpedoes,
Speaker 1: but the Britain, Britain's, Britain's British British thought they could
Speaker 1: maybe do better and they didn't want to be dependent
Speaker 1: upon somebody else for their armament. Right. That's yes, that's
Speaker 1: the way we should be saying that. Not we're better
Speaker 1: than them, but they thought they were better than us.
Speaker 1: Good point. That tendency is a very very bad thing
Speaker 1: to do. It really ever get into a large scale
Speaker 1: armed conflict, it really is. And you know what was
Speaker 1: happening around that time is the Cold War or was
Speaker 1: about to happen, and uh well that was kind of
Speaker 1: like a huge armament thing. So well, you know, they
Speaker 1: they just had ideas of their own too. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, the U. S. Navy is a little high
Speaker 1: bound sometimes and they're thinking and and the risk though.
Speaker 1: You know, they came up with the Spearfish, which was
Speaker 1: just a what's the word I'm thinking of just clever, No,
Speaker 1: not clever efficient, it was just it was just freaking fast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, they just actually would by by Mark forty
Speaker 1: from the U. S. Navy. Let's build something around this
Speaker 1: is better. Yeah, well, so the sting I'm sorry giving
Speaker 1: is that, Joe? Is that what the m K stands for? Mark? Yeah? Okay,
Speaker 1: I could never find that listed anywhere, so it always
Speaker 1: frustrated me when I was doing the research. Why is
Speaker 1: it an MK something? Yeah? Stupid US Navy and their abbreviations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Joe may be able to like continue to shed
Speaker 1: some light on some of this stuff. But the stingray torpedo,
Speaker 1: or at least the very beginning concepts of it, we're
Speaker 1: starting to be born in the nineteen sixties and obviously
Speaker 1: they needed some help developing said stingray torpedo, So the
Speaker 1: Royal Navy turned to what was at that point called
Speaker 1: g E C. Marconi or just Marconi. It's gone through
Speaker 1: a lot of different iterations. We're just going to call
Speaker 1: it Marconi for the rest because it's just easier. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't think. I think they got gobbled up by
Speaker 1: somebody else. They're not even Marconi anymore. True, they were
Speaker 1: originally Marconi and then they became g CE Marconi. G
Speaker 1: CE was a company that owned them, and they bought
Speaker 1: them out like in the late eighties, and then they
Speaker 1: got bought out by somebody else. It's been this huge thing.
Speaker 1: So we're just gonna call Marconi, Okay, cool, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: listeners cool, send me an email. If you're not cool, cool,
Speaker 1: it isn't I Well, I personally don't think it's very
Speaker 1: important to know what makes this torpedo important for this
Speaker 1: for this story. I mean, people may be interested, in
Speaker 1: which case, the internet's a thing, so look it up.
Speaker 1: Actually it's I will say that it is very interesting
Speaker 1: in the way that it operates. And yeah, and it
Speaker 1: is the multi purpose approach that they took, you know,
Speaker 1: from shooting it out of a submarine to dropping it
Speaker 1: from a plane is pretty phenomenal. Absolutely, No, I think
Speaker 1: it's as much as an instrument of war can be. Cool.
Speaker 1: It's cool. Yeah, this is a cool Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: This is kind of the equivalent of the Mark forty
Speaker 1: six US. It's like an air more meant to be
Speaker 1: dropped out of airplanes and helicopters rather than shot out
Speaker 1: of submarines. But yeah, it's a nifty little, nifty little thing.
Speaker 1: And I especially like the whole idea of fines it's
Speaker 1: been tried on other things. We Russian supposedly are trying
Speaker 1: to send submarines, which is sort of paying out like
Speaker 1: lubricant on the on the no, from the nose of
Speaker 1: the of the torpedo to basically reduced drag and make
Speaker 1: it more efficient faster. Yeah, it's kind of and it's
Speaker 1: a cool idea, although probably leaves a nasty, sticky trail.
Speaker 1: But yeah. Yeah. But the really important part to know
Speaker 1: as it pertains to this case is that most of
Speaker 1: the people who are involved in this case were involved
Speaker 1: in the development or implementation of the Stingray torpedo, which
Speaker 1: was top secret, relatively decent security clear I would say
Speaker 1: totally top secret, but yeah, really high clearance. UM. So
Speaker 1: they were either involved in that development it or in
Speaker 1: um the Star Wars project, which came a little later.
Speaker 1: Star Wars program was to basically to develop a missile
Speaker 1: defense system to protect America from any kind of nuclear attack. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is the way dumbed down version. We don't need
Speaker 1: experts to explain to us this dumbed down version. We're
Speaker 1: going to just say this dumb down version. Basically, the
Speaker 1: idea was to shoot down incoming Soviet ballistic missiles from
Speaker 1: every angle not even necessarily so so Star Wars was
Speaker 1: very controversial and it was actually like very ambitious. It
Speaker 1: included surface to air interception, orbital intervention. And this is true.
Speaker 1: Uh an X ray laser called projects called Project Excalibur
Speaker 1: yea or laser is a cool idea. It's really cool too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we should start a kickstarter to buy our own laser
Speaker 1: extra laser. And and I've got to say, directed energy
Speaker 1: weapons have really come a long way. They had thanks
Speaker 1: the sd I, I think more than anything else. Now
Speaker 1: were and now we're fielding, we're actually getting that fielding
Speaker 1: necessarily getting ready to field really high powered lasers that
Speaker 1: actually can't shoot down. So this was early development of that.
Speaker 1: It was super topsy. We're still talking Star Wars, as
Speaker 1: you say, at this point, we're still the eighties, so
Speaker 1: we're still decades away from where we are. Absolutely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So all of the projects that these or twenty six people,
Speaker 1: well the twenty people they person is a little different.
Speaker 1: But the people that we're going to talk about, we're
Speaker 1: all working very closely on these heavily classified projects. And
Speaker 1: by closely, you don't mean together as a group, because
Speaker 1: they were they were you know, rubbing elbows all know,
Speaker 1: most of them. Some of them did work together, but
Speaker 1: most of them didn't actually ever interact. They just were
Speaker 1: working on the same project. And these projects were large. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you don't develop an extreme laser without you know, having
Speaker 1: a couple hundred people working. You know, that's not a thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I guess As a side note, I just want
Speaker 1: to say that sometimes when I was watching Fringe, UM,
Speaker 1: I started to really doubt the whole like, this reminds
Speaker 1: me of the project Belly and I worked right for
Speaker 1: multipleship and then you should, you should. But like, the
Speaker 1: further I delved into the history of the Star Wars project,
Speaker 1: the more I was like, oh crap, they literally just
Speaker 1: pulled this from history. This is like, this is exactly
Speaker 1: what we were doing. Oh god wow. So, like I said,
Speaker 1: while there's some connections to Star Wars and to the
Speaker 1: development of the Stingright torpedo, this episode is not about that.
Speaker 1: So let's get going. Let's talk about some death. First, death,
Speaker 1: We're talking about death now. Professor Keith Bowden. Professor Bowden
Speaker 1: was a computer programmer at Essex University. He was an
Speaker 1: expert on supercomputers and pretty well renowned for his work
Speaker 1: with computer controlled aircraft, which is like totally ubiquitous now
Speaker 1: but in the whole different, totally different. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: Pong was major at that time. UM. On an evening
Speaker 1: in March of nine two, he died in a car
Speaker 1: accident after um reportedly drinking at a social function. His
Speaker 1: friends and families say he wasn't drinking, UM, but he
Speaker 1: lost control of his car and crashed it into a
Speaker 1: rail line that wasn't being used anymore, so there were
Speaker 1: no trains using it or anything like that. Crashed into
Speaker 1: a rail line as and he crashed into a train tracks.
Speaker 1: How would you know? He went down an embankment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at the bottom was a set of training. Um. The
Speaker 1: impact would have killed him. So he died. He died.
Speaker 1: It did kill Hiyeah, it did kill him. But it
Speaker 1: was apparently the impact right because there was no, like
Speaker 1: I said, no trains or anything like that. And something
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say a lot here. You're gonna hear like, oh,
Speaker 1: he ran his car into this thing and it wasn't
Speaker 1: in use. How lucky, right. I don't know if he
Speaker 1: did it deliberately, somebody else did it. Yeah. Next up
Speaker 1: is Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Godly. Um. Godly was the head
Speaker 1: of the work study unit at the Royal College of
Speaker 1: Military Science, which you're going to hear a lot about
Speaker 1: the Royal College of Military Science. Um. Not clear what
Speaker 1: projects he worked on, but I think he probably did
Speaker 1: work on a lot of the projects, which honestly might
Speaker 1: be more of an indication than not not knowing what
Speaker 1: projects he worked on might be more of an indication
Speaker 1: than like if they had said, what don't these guys
Speaker 1: were working because it was secret. It was it was
Speaker 1: really secret. And in fairness, Godly may or may not
Speaker 1: be dead. He just mysteriously disappeared in April of two.
Speaker 1: He has presumed dead. And the reason that people presume
Speaker 1: that he's dead is that his father died in ninety
Speaker 1: seven and left him like a ton of money, not
Speaker 1: a ton quiet but you know the modern equivalent of
Speaker 1: over grandly, like a hundred and thirty grand um. And
Speaker 1: he never named it, yeah, in today's money, and he
Speaker 1: never claimed it. It doesn't He might be like Patrick
Speaker 1: McGowan in The Prisoner and he's just being held in
Speaker 1: a little little point village on the coast somewhere held
Speaker 1: the operative word there. Yeah, it's reasonable to assume that
Speaker 1: he is not under his own personage. I mean that
Speaker 1: he's not really operating of his own free will. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I mean. Yeah, but he disappeared, he did.
Speaker 1: Next up is Roger Hill. Hill was a radar designer
Speaker 1: and a drafter from mar cony Um and he shot
Speaker 1: himself with a shotgun in March of presumably on purpose.
Speaker 1: A corner report says it was a suicide. So this
Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring this up because this is We're only
Speaker 1: three in, but we're gonna see this a number of times.
Speaker 1: Things that seem very easily defined from the outside as
Speaker 1: a suicide or or and we're going to see things
Speaker 1: that are seemed very simply as just plain old accidents
Speaker 1: or intentional loss of life are going to be wrapped in.
Speaker 1: So this is gonna come up again and again. So
Speaker 1: I'm gonna warrant people because I know people are gonna
Speaker 1: be like, oh, are you kidding me? How is that
Speaker 1: on the list? This is how the list is. This
Speaker 1: let's just been I always use the phrase curated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like this list has been very tailored because
Speaker 1: I've found some alternate versions of it out there that
Speaker 1: have more info. But it always gets trimmed more and
Speaker 1: more as I read people that we're not on the list,
Speaker 1: that we who were scientists and they were not on
Speaker 1: the official list because they were outside of Marconi. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well there are some people on this list that were
Speaker 1: outside of Marconi as well. But we'll keep talking about this,
Speaker 1: and I agree that there are some that have I mean,
Speaker 1: it's definitely created. I think is like a really nice number,
Speaker 1: perfect list size. It's a good number. It's always perfect
Speaker 1: cla the top ten, the top twelve, the top twenty,
Speaker 1: the top like this is the way those things always run.
Speaker 1: So it's you know, sometimes you gotta pad that out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: evidently they did. Next up is Jonathan wolsh Um. He
Speaker 1: was a communications expert who had worked on a number
Speaker 1: of classified projects from our Coni. On November nine, wolsh
Speaker 1: fell out of his hotel room window in Abbot John
Speaker 1: West Africa. That's not suspicious at all, not at all.
Speaker 1: Actually they don't have hotel room window in Africa, that's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's really easy to fall out, of course. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: Walsh had actually expressed to some ends that he was
Speaker 1: that he feared that his life was in danger prior
Speaker 1: to leaving for his trip for West Africa. So that's cool.
Speaker 1: This is when things start to kind of ramp up
Speaker 1: after after Wolsh, which is pretty suspicious, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: managed to get along for many years without falling out right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he was only twenty nine, so like, come on.
Speaker 1: Next up is vim Al dodgy By. He was a
Speaker 1: computer software engineer with Marconi who ran most of the
Speaker 1: testing on the torpedo development projects, so that would have
Speaker 1: included the stay right torpedo and then the iterations thereafter.
Speaker 1: On August fifth, night six he told his wife that
Speaker 1: he would be working late and then drove about a
Speaker 1: hundred miles to Bristol and then mysteriously fell two hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty feet, which is eighty years from a suspension bridge.
Speaker 1: And he had no connection to Bristol. He didn't know.
Speaker 1: There was no reason for him to be there except
Speaker 1: there was a nice high bridge. Except for there was
Speaker 1: a nice high bridge. But I don't know why you
Speaker 1: would drive a hundred miles for a nice high bridge.
Speaker 1: I bet they're nice high bridges somewhere within that hundred
Speaker 1: mile radius. Not necessarily, there's there's buildings to throw yourself
Speaker 1: off trains to throw yourself in front of you. There's
Speaker 1: other ways to kill yourself. Um. The police report initially
Speaker 1: included a mention of a needle sized puncture on his
Speaker 1: left butt cheek. Um. But then later they said, oh,
Speaker 1: actually that that needle size puncture wound is actually that
Speaker 1: that actually came from his fall of course. Um. And
Speaker 1: I also heard that he when they found his body,
Speaker 1: his pants were down around his ankles. I've heard varying
Speaker 1: accounts of that. Yes, it depends on he did fall
Speaker 1: into a river that Yeah, so he'd been looking forward
Speaker 1: to starting. He had actually just been offered a job
Speaker 1: in the city of London. His friends confirmed, as did
Speaker 1: his wife, that he had no reason for committing suicide. Granted,
Speaker 1: we know from our couple of years of doing the
Speaker 1: show that there's not always a reason. There's not always
Speaker 1: outward signs signs to friends and family. Now, one of
Speaker 1: the things I want to know is did he jump
Speaker 1: during the day or at night? I believe it was
Speaker 1: at night, Okay, anybody driving by, some some big Russian
Speaker 1: looking guys, maybe throwing him off the bridge, I don't believe. So. No,
Speaker 1: the when his when he died, um, he was with
Speaker 1: the he was within a week of his last day
Speaker 1: at Marconi. UM, so that's a little yeah, Yeah, that's cool,
Speaker 1: new job in London. Yeah, although you know, like I said,
Speaker 1: there's no reason, but when you start to couple it
Speaker 1: with a lot of other stuff, it's kind of like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is this is a Domino story. This is as
Speaker 1: That's what I always refer to these as is. It's
Speaker 1: you know, the first one is fine, the second one.
Speaker 1: By the sixth, seventh, and eighth, you're like, whoa, there's
Speaker 1: something going on. That's what That's how the story gets
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah. I think I'm probably a combination of
Speaker 1: actual accidents and natural causes mixed in with some murders.
Speaker 1: Possibly it's a perfect cover. Next up is our Shads Sharif.
Speaker 1: Shariff was working on a system to allow detection of
Speaker 1: submarines by satellites. So that's that's cool technology, important technology.
Speaker 1: Synthetic aperture radar is one of the ones that the
Speaker 1: technologies they used to take waves on the surface of
Speaker 1: the ocean. Yeah. In October six um Shariff placed a
Speaker 1: rope around his neck, tied the other end of the
Speaker 1: rope to a tree, and then drove off in his
Speaker 1: Audi with the accelerated pedal, jammed down Um and effectively
Speaker 1: decapitated himself. The coroner did decide that this was a
Speaker 1: suicide because I don't know why. I think his his
Speaker 1: brother Um actually went to retreat the car. He said
Speaker 1: there was a metal rod on the floor of the
Speaker 1: car next to the gas pedal. This was retrieved after
Speaker 1: it had been in custody. You know, of course the
Speaker 1: police take the car and say we're gonna check it out,
Speaker 1: figure it out. So I always I saw that too,
Speaker 1: and I was really suspicious of that because it means
Speaker 1: it would have been in a wrecking yard and things.
Speaker 1: You know, as I get in there, I've got a
Speaker 1: thing in my hand from working on another car, and
Speaker 1: I set it down and I moved this car, and
Speaker 1: then I leave it. Like it's never described. Is it
Speaker 1: a rod that it was of the proper length? This
Speaker 1: is again, this is one of those things about the stories.
Speaker 1: It's just there was a raw metal rod on the floorboard,
Speaker 1: but we don't actually get any description to say if
Speaker 1: it could or could not have been used in a
Speaker 1: nefarious way too, as is inferred hold down the gas pedal. Well,
Speaker 1: the thing about it is too is you would have
Speaker 1: thought that there had actually been a rod there, that
Speaker 1: the police would have actually you know, taken it into evidence. Well,
Speaker 1: according to all of the folks that really believe that
Speaker 1: this is a genet conspiracy, this is examples of police ineptitude,
Speaker 1: right that happens, or a willful cover up that too,
Speaker 1: or maybe a little both. I guess. The couple of
Speaker 1: things that add to Shrief's story, Um, Sharif didn't really
Speaker 1: live anywhere near Bristol, which is where he committed suicide.
Speaker 1: And he had actually spent the last night of his
Speaker 1: life renting in what they call a rooming house, which
Speaker 1: I think is just like a hostel. There's no good
Speaker 1: reason for this. He had a nice apartment and life Bristol. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And he had apparently paid for that room in cash
Speaker 1: and apparently was seen to have had a bundle of
Speaker 1: high denomination notes, right bank notes, whichever, you know whatever.
Speaker 1: Apparently the police were told about these this money cash basically,
Speaker 1: and they they didn't make any mention of it when
Speaker 1: there was an ins into the death. Um, and it's
Speaker 1: basically just been scrubbed out of the record. I imagine
Speaker 1: the guys who drove the ambulances and picked his body
Speaker 1: up at the scene, probably found a new home for it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: if it was on him. Yeah, that's true. This is
Speaker 1: a messy scene. Tax is that what that is? That
Speaker 1: he's going to pay for this? Yeah? If I gotta,
Speaker 1: if I gotta put up with all this gross in
Speaker 1: the second of his head and put it in a
Speaker 1: paper bag. Yeah, Um wouldn't have stayed in a paper bag.
Speaker 1: Most of the other guests that were um staying in
Speaker 1: the same hostile rooming housing were all employed at the
Speaker 1: British Aerospace which is actually where Sharif worked prior to
Speaker 1: working at Marconi, and he had worked in Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were doing guided weapons. Yeah, just say they were doing
Speaker 1: similar stuff what he was doing for Marconi. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: it sounds like he had been doing that prior and
Speaker 1: then Marconi was like, hey, you work over here, and
Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, totally, no problem. While that in
Speaker 1: and of itself isn't really suspicious, it could have just
Speaker 1: been like a reunion or something like that, it is.
Speaker 1: I guess it seems a little weird because his friends
Speaker 1: didn't seem to know about that. But it's just a
Speaker 1: bizarre way to kill yourself, you know. It's a really
Speaker 1: weird way to kill yourself. I have heard of it
Speaker 1: on It's actually more common than you would think. I
Speaker 1: have heard of several instances where people with a convertible
Speaker 1: or like, you know what, I'm doing this, and so
Speaker 1: it's it's not uncommon. But what I want to know
Speaker 1: is I've never actually seen anything that's listed. Do we
Speaker 1: know how much booze he had in him or if
Speaker 1: any there's no mention of it. So in all of
Speaker 1: the other ones, there's a mention that they were drunk
Speaker 1: or you know, and he rereated in some way. There's
Speaker 1: no mention of that in this one. So I can
Speaker 1: only assume that he wasn't okay because they would have
Speaker 1: mentioned it. I mean, the police would have been like, also,
Speaker 1: he was super drunk, so of course he did this well,
Speaker 1: And then that's why I'm asking. I mean, there's um there.
Speaker 1: There is in one of the things that I read
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that how is it described he
Speaker 1: had to use four lengths of rope to commit the
Speaker 1: that he committed, but when they searched his car, they
Speaker 1: only found a receipt for one length of rope, and
Speaker 1: so that is pointed at as signs of foul play
Speaker 1: by by conspiracies is you know, well, obviously he had
Speaker 1: somebody had bought it because he realized they didn't have
Speaker 1: enough to get the job done, because he couldn't have
Speaker 1: gone fast enough to pop his knogging off. That's some
Speaker 1: serious premeditation of suicide though. Well, but it could also
Speaker 1: be that he happened to have a bunch of rope
Speaker 1: in his car and went, yeah, I'm kind of done
Speaker 1: and I think I need a little more rope, and
Speaker 1: so he bought more rope. I guess I just think
Speaker 1: like you. Okay, So what he like drove past the
Speaker 1: particular tree and bought Oh that's a good tree. Oh,
Speaker 1: let me do some calculations to see how fast I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to be going how fast? He's an essentially
Speaker 1: smart guy. But you know what, you like in the
Speaker 1: instances that I have heard about where people have done
Speaker 1: this before, there's a bit of revenge in that. It's
Speaker 1: a jilted marriage situation. I think about that I'm gonna
Speaker 1: get I'm gonna get divorced, and I'm gonna lose this
Speaker 1: nice convertible car I have. Let me go ahead and
Speaker 1: coated in my own bodily fluids before she gets it. Okay,
Speaker 1: Well we'll we'll talk a little bit more about this
Speaker 1: than okay, because I think we're verging one. That's okay.
Speaker 1: Next up is Richard Pugh. Pugh worked as a computer
Speaker 1: consultant and digital communications expert for the Ministry of Defense.
Speaker 1: His death was ruled an accident, which I think is insane. Um.
Speaker 1: He was found in his flat in January of seven.
Speaker 1: His feet were bound, there was a plastic bag over
Speaker 1: his head and a rope tied around his body, which
Speaker 1: was then wrapped around his neck four times. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: he did that himself. It was ruled a sexual misadventure.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it was ruled suicide. It wasn't even
Speaker 1: ruled misadventure. I read in one place it was ruled
Speaker 1: a sexual misadventure. It was ruled an accident. Oh okay, alright,
Speaker 1: that's fair. Yeah, there's twenty five of these, so I
Speaker 1: may be getting a few of them confused, because it
Speaker 1: turns out this is not the only one that sounds
Speaker 1: like this that happens in this So there is another one. Okay,
Speaker 1: So that one was an accident, all right, okay. Next
Speaker 1: up is Avtar Singhy don He was a researcher at
Speaker 1: the Ministry of Defense and he had worked conducting tests
Speaker 1: on submarine warfare equipment, which would have included the stamary torpedo. Uh.
Speaker 1: He's another one that just disappeared on a weird circumstances.
Speaker 1: On January seven, he was three weeks away from successfully
Speaker 1: defending his doctoral thesis. So he would have been a
Speaker 1: doctor basically, I mean, he would have had his doctor,
Speaker 1: his degree, he would have achieved his UM, but he
Speaker 1: disappeared instead. Um and then he actually reappeared four months
Speaker 1: on the job. He did. He just kind of like
Speaker 1: walked away from his life with no explanation. He was
Speaker 1: He's still alive, right, he is. Yeah. He had actually
Speaker 1: finally been traced to a red light district of Paris,
Speaker 1: and it was confirmed that he didn't really know how
Speaker 1: he got there or why he was there weekend well
Speaker 1: four months, four months and actually when he was found,
Speaker 1: he was working under an assumed name and he was
Speaker 1: working in a sweat shop with illegal immigrants. And he's
Speaker 1: a bright guy obviously, I mean he's defending his dissertation. Like,
Speaker 1: this is a guy who's really ambitious and educated and
Speaker 1: well read. And you know, he's working for the Ministry
Speaker 1: of Defense, and what he decided to do I guess
Speaker 1: is work, like really just walked away from it all.
Speaker 1: Is really really walked away from it all, like in
Speaker 1: the biggest way possible. So that is kind of odd.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if he retained his security clearance after that.
Speaker 1: I'm I presume so he came back to work. I mean,
Speaker 1: he continued to work at Marconi UM, which is again
Speaker 1: kind of suspicious. It seems like they would maybe think,
Speaker 1: you know, oh, this guy just walked away from his life,
Speaker 1: we should revoke his clearance. But no, they said, okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: come down back, that's fine. Well it's either he was
Speaker 1: not working at stuff that was to to top top,
Speaker 1: top secret, or or maybe they knew he disappeared for
Speaker 1: a reason. Well maybe again, maybe they sat him down
Speaker 1: to had talk and he told them he just won't
Speaker 1: tell reporters or anybody else. It's possible, yeah, he um,
Speaker 1: he was actually very good friends with Mr Dodgy By
Speaker 1: that the one who from the bridge, Yeah, the one
Speaker 1: who fell I'm using air quotes here, fell from the
Speaker 1: bridge Um. And he when he returned, you know, he said,
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about that, and I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about disappearance. I just want to get
Speaker 1: back to work. And Marconi said cool. By the way,
Speaker 1: he didn't fall from the bridge. He was tossed over
Speaker 1: the railing by a couple of big Russian guys. Maybe
Speaker 1: we don't corn to jop. Next up, Dr John Britton. Dr.
Speaker 1: Britton worked on top secret projects for the Royal College
Speaker 1: of Military Science, then later for the Ministry of Defense.
Speaker 1: He died on January seventeenth, nine seven, by way of
Speaker 1: carbon monoxide poisoning from his car in his garage. He
Speaker 1: had literally just returned from a top secret trip to
Speaker 1: the United States related to his work with the Ministry
Speaker 1: Ministry of Defense, and he probably thought would be Ministry
Speaker 1: of Magic, weren't you. He probably would be a great
Speaker 1: idea to just sit in his car with an Asian
Speaker 1: running listening to the radio. Yeah, totally wanted to hear
Speaker 1: that last story on NPR. Yeah exactly. So NPR killed him, Yeah,
Speaker 1: NBR kills yeah, yeah, or BBC, it's true. Next up
Speaker 1: is David Skeels. He worked as an engineer for Mark
Speaker 1: Coni and then he died the exact same way, the
Speaker 1: same to the BBC. Yeah, listening to BBC. Um he's
Speaker 1: the same way as Dr Britton did, but in February
Speaker 1: of seven. The difference between the two is that Brittain
Speaker 1: didn't have the uh the TV trope hoose going from
Speaker 1: the window from the exhaust pipe to his into his window,
Speaker 1: whereas Skials and everybody that follows does. Yeah. So that's
Speaker 1: which I didn't realize. I totally thought that was a
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies like TV thing. I didn't think that actually happened.
Speaker 1: Apparently it's just a quicker way to do it, you know,
Speaker 1: instead of having to fill up the entire room, you
Speaker 1: just to fill up your car. I didn't know people
Speaker 1: sat in rooms with their cars running as a way
Speaker 1: to take their own lives. Just when I'm getting it's
Speaker 1: actually not that uncommon, I didn't know that. It's also
Speaker 1: not that uncomfortable. Yeah's kind of go to sleep. Next
Speaker 1: is Victor Moore. Mr. Moore was a design engineer for Marconi.
Speaker 1: He died also in February of seven, but from a
Speaker 1: drug overdose. He had just finished his work on infrared
Speaker 1: satellites and then he was found dead. His death apparently
Speaker 1: instigated an m I five investigation UM, the results of
Speaker 1: which obviously still remain a secret. There's also a report
Speaker 1: that the Ministry of Defense Serious Crime Squad like the
Speaker 1: name right UM, did in a separate investigation into Marconi
Speaker 1: that was started because of this death. I really just
Speaker 1: want to be on the Ministry of Defense not Serious
Speaker 1: Crime Squad, not as serious, right right, that's I think
Speaker 1: that's the name of it. I think that's how it goes.
Speaker 1: Serious Crime Squad, not as serious crime Squad. Well, no,
Speaker 1: I want to be on the not serious as in
Speaker 1: nothing is serious, because it's kind of sometimes what I
Speaker 1: think we are. Yeah, we are actually actually want to
Speaker 1: work for the Ministry of bad haircuts. You're halfway there, Joe, welcome.
Speaker 1: Next up is um Peter Pepel. He was a scientist
Speaker 1: working for the Royal College of Military Science. He died
Speaker 1: on February seven. Yes, there's now three deaths in February
Speaker 1: of this one was especially hanky, though he did also
Speaker 1: die in the same way as Dr Britton and Mr Skeels.
Speaker 1: His wife found him on his back, with his head
Speaker 1: parallel to the rear of the car bumper and his
Speaker 1: mouth in line with the exhaust pipe of his car.
Speaker 1: He was laying under the exhaust pipe, essentially like literally
Speaker 1: drinking in exactly what I what I heard is he attacked.
Speaker 1: His body was actually jammed underneath the car. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So police apparently were pretty confused about how he could
Speaker 1: have gotten into that position. It sounds like his wife
Speaker 1: initially thought they were driving home from a function, and
Speaker 1: then she went inside and he stayed out. No, there
Speaker 1: was apparently like a weird noise coming from a yeah,
Speaker 1: and so she thought maybe he had been trying to
Speaker 1: investigate that and gotten stuck. I'm not sure why she's
Speaker 1: an engine running when you're doing someone like that, okay,
Speaker 1: because that's the only way that you can hear the
Speaker 1: engine making the noise. I guess I think he would
Speaker 1: like turn it off and look for something loose first.
Speaker 1: And I I think about it is is especially if it
Speaker 1: sounds like there was a little clearance und of the car,
Speaker 1: and if it's been running you just arrived home, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be hot. Your your muffler especially, it's going to
Speaker 1: be you know, well, it will burn you. Actually at
Speaker 1: one time touched the muffler one time and when it
Speaker 1: was when the angel was running, and well, I was
Speaker 1: sorry that I did that, and well, well I will
Speaker 1: save it for later to say, because that actually gives
Speaker 1: me what I have thought about is a potential explanation
Speaker 1: of how he ended up in the position that he
Speaker 1: was in. Okay, well, we'll talk about that in a minute.
Speaker 1: He apparently, you know, reportedly friends and family, wife blah blah,
Speaker 1: all say there were no signs of stress in his life,
Speaker 1: so there was no reason for him to have committed suicide.
Speaker 1: UM he didn't work for the Royal College of Military
Speaker 1: Science anymore. UM he was in the research and development
Speaker 1: arm of the Ministry of Defense. But UM People and
Speaker 1: Brittain apparently worked together at the Royal College of Military Science,
Speaker 1: and um People was on that same trip to the
Speaker 1: United States as Dr Brittain was UM and he had
Speaker 1: also recently just gotten back from the United States on
Speaker 1: their top secret whatever. That is a coincidence. By the way,
Speaker 1: have we did we say anything about the fact that
Speaker 1: these guys are not all in the same town, they're
Speaker 1: all over Britain. Yeah, I don't know that we've actually
Speaker 1: said that. Those that of the I don't know half
Speaker 1: dozen or dozen people that we've talked about so far.
Speaker 1: It's not as if they were all you know in
Speaker 1: one town or one city. They are all over, really
Speaker 1: spread all over the country, all over the Country's important
Speaker 1: to keep in mind, but yeah, it is important to
Speaker 1: keep in mind. Next is David Sands. He was a
Speaker 1: senior scientist working at a sister company of Marconi, and
Speaker 1: he had worked closely with Dr Britton. He died on
Speaker 1: March seven in a fatal car accident. He made a
Speaker 1: sudden you turn on UH two, a lane highway on
Speaker 1: his way to work who know who knows why, and
Speaker 1: then crushed at high speeds into an abandoned cafeteria that
Speaker 1: was out of use cafe whichever, the British calm cafeterias,
Speaker 1: I've heard a restaurant. But it was down. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like it was right on the edge of the road.
Speaker 1: It was like down a little side inlet road that
Speaker 1: he managed to go careening down. Yeah, he managed to
Speaker 1: hit the one spot in that area that was abandoned
Speaker 1: because lucky. Yeah, he loaded up his car with gasoline
Speaker 1: can he had. Yeah, he had two additional five gallon
Speaker 1: cans full of gas hanging out in his car and
Speaker 1: they sort of ruptured and blew up and turned into
Speaker 1: a fireball. It's weird. Yeah, it's like they were trying
Speaker 1: to destroy evidence. Yeah. I think they identified him by
Speaker 1: dental records. I believe so. Yeah. You know again, no signs,
Speaker 1: no outward signs of a reason to suicide. Also a
Speaker 1: weird way to commit suicide. But okay, that's actually kind
Speaker 1: of very male. Men tend to go out in violent ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah we've said that before. But like by pulling a
Speaker 1: you turn and losing control of your car, that's the
Speaker 1: things control. He lost control. Well, I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: understand the you turn thing. I mean I would I
Speaker 1: would think just you know, get on the get on
Speaker 1: the freeway and just massed down the accelerator until you're
Speaker 1: maxed out in speed and then crash into like a
Speaker 1: bridge about or something like that. You turn out. Doesn't
Speaker 1: really make sense to me. That's weird. He have missed
Speaker 1: his turn. He may have said I'm going to hit
Speaker 1: that building and then I knows nobody's in and it's
Speaker 1: it's solid and my car is gonna go boom and
Speaker 1: a hell I missed it. He flipped. But we'll talk
Speaker 1: about that more later. Uh. Stewart Gooding was a postgraduate
Speaker 1: student at the Royal College of Military Sciences. He died
Speaker 1: on April tenth. Um. He was in a fatal car
Speaker 1: crash in Cyprus. He died instantly when his hired car,
Speaker 1: which I believe is a rental car. Yeah, I believe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was driving it though like you'll see hired car.
Speaker 1: It's not like he wasn't he hadn't hired someone. It
Speaker 1: was an at taxi or anything. He was driving. Um,
Speaker 1: he collided with head on with a truck, a semi
Speaker 1: a semi truck, yeah, or a lory as you might
Speaker 1: call it in the British aisles. The truck driver was
Speaker 1: said to be totally unhurt, as were all the passengers. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The truck is a lot bigger than the car. So well,
Speaker 1: I thought, I thought the isn't he the one that
Speaker 1: the passengers in the car were also unhurt? I don't
Speaker 1: think there were any passengers. Yeah, no, Actually I think
Speaker 1: you're right. I don't think there was passengers. That there's
Speaker 1: somebody else that had passengers in the car. Again, in
Speaker 1: one of it's hard to keep track of it. It's
Speaker 1: really hard, which is why I'm appreciating this fact checking. Actually,
Speaker 1: usually i'd just be like Steve showed up. But now
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I think you keep coming. Um, so
Speaker 1: it's kind of weird. I mean, that's another failed car accident.
Speaker 1: But okay, this is one of the ones that I'm
Speaker 1: going to call BS on for getting tacked. I consider
Speaker 1: this attack in this is this is getting got pinned
Speaker 1: into the list because we had to pad out to
Speaker 1: a big number because he's not anywhere remotely involved in
Speaker 1: anything else. He's on a vacation. Well actually he wasn't
Speaker 1: on vacation. He was in Cyprus because um there was
Speaker 1: the But but still it's they're carrying out quote unquote exercise.
Speaker 1: That could have been an accident. It could have been
Speaker 1: as a big truck driven by a couple of the
Speaker 1: big burly Russian guys. Could have been either way. You
Speaker 1: gotta stop blaming the Russians. It could have been the Cubans,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and not part of the world's probably Russians.
Speaker 1: Next up is definitely wasn't the French David A k A.
Speaker 1: Robert green Hall Uh. He was the contracts manager at
Speaker 1: Israel Chemicals Limited. He died from complications after he quote
Speaker 1: unquote mysteriously leapt from a forty foot or twelve meter
Speaker 1: high railway bridge. He was apparently on his way to
Speaker 1: work and decided to pull over and jump to his
Speaker 1: death four hours after he had left home to go
Speaker 1: to work. By the way, Yeah uh. This happened on
Speaker 1: April tenth of seven, same day as Stewart Gooding had
Speaker 1: his little car accident in Cyprus. In Cyprus, in another country,
Speaker 1: totally different country. UM. The I c L which is
Speaker 1: is really chemical as Limited later revealed that UM he
Speaker 1: had actually been positively vetted for Clarence and had probably
Speaker 1: had access to secret UK and NATO data because of
Speaker 1: some of the contracts he was managing for them, which
Speaker 1: would have been connected to Star Wars and Stingray torpedo stuff. UM.
Speaker 1: And he was working on the same defense project as
Speaker 1: David Sands UM, who you will remember from the U
Speaker 1: Turn incident the fireball with He actually didn't die immediately
Speaker 1: from his fall. He survived UM. And the emergency people
Speaker 1: came and took him way and took him to the
Speaker 1: hospital and they said, okay, you fell what happened there?
Speaker 1: And he said, I don't really know how or why
Speaker 1: I fell from that bridge. And then he died a
Speaker 1: couple of days later in the hospital. I have heard
Speaker 1: different accounts on him. I have actually heard that though
Speaker 1: he has no memory of what happened that day, he
Speaker 1: did recover and survived. Yeah, you know, saying it's it's
Speaker 1: one of the sources that I found. I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is one of the ones that was a red
Speaker 1: flag for me because I actually didn't see that anywhere. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't either, but uh, but you know, it is possible,
Speaker 1: Like I sometimes you can get a massive injury, like
Speaker 1: and you can get I knew a guy that was
Speaker 1: a paratrooper and there was a guy in his battalion
Speaker 1: or whatever, Yeah he was, and they jumped one day
Speaker 1: and this guy's shoot didn't open and he augured in
Speaker 1: and he walked away from it and then and and
Speaker 1: he said, oh cool, and then he died later that night.
Speaker 1: If he had massive internal injuries, nobody even knew, which is,
Speaker 1: by the way, incredibly negligence on the part of the army.
Speaker 1: I mean, I should have had the guy in the hospital. Yeah,
Speaker 1: every every major organ was ruptured. But it is possible
Speaker 1: also to fall and sustain massive injuries. But it's it's
Speaker 1: not going to kill you if you get treatment and
Speaker 1: you get long term treatment for the time that it
Speaker 1: takes two to be healed and corrected. Yeah, this guy
Speaker 1: is and the things that I found was reported to live.
Speaker 1: So it's possible. But but I could see a situation
Speaker 1: where you would have so many ruptures in your body
Speaker 1: that they just couldn't get into that sucker hose that
Speaker 1: you have in your yards, just leaking everywhere. There's the
Speaker 1: way you can plug it all. Not a Dutch boy
Speaker 1: in the damn Okay, Yeah, well, I mean it's I
Speaker 1: guess we can just chalk that up to I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's weird. I mean, it's weird that
Speaker 1: he wouldn't remember ever why he felt. But there's also
Speaker 1: such a thing as like head trauma related to I'm
Speaker 1: not surprised at all either way. And it's kind of
Speaker 1: weird though, like four hours later suddenly or just on
Speaker 1: a railroad bridge jump in or falling or falling, you know,
Speaker 1: it's usually pretty easy to stay on those things, although
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, if you're on a railroad bridge,
Speaker 1: although what the hell was he doing on a railroad bridge.
Speaker 1: Often railroad bridges don't have guardrails on because because trains
Speaker 1: don't tend to fall off of them usually, so there's
Speaker 1: no need to put a Actually do tend to fall
Speaker 1: off of them occasionally. But you know what, what guard
Speaker 1: rail is going to stop? You need to build a
Speaker 1: tunnel to pretty massive guard rail baxed up. It's going
Speaker 1: to be George Countess. He was a system analyst at
Speaker 1: Bristol Polytech and on April seventeenth seven he was drowned
Speaker 1: as a result of a car accident into river. His
Speaker 1: car was found upside down in a river in Liverpool.
Speaker 1: I presume he was inside it, yes, which I'm going
Speaker 1: to say right now again, I feel like that one
Speaker 1: is tacked in. I agree, especially because like systems analysts
Speaker 1: of personal Polytech, like I didn't really find a good
Speaker 1: connection to the rest of these is that we're in
Speaker 1: this industry at this point, we we This story is
Speaker 1: one of the ones that starts expanding, occasionally reaches out
Speaker 1: and grabs a guy that's in the biz. Well it is,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's in the biz. Died under what
Speaker 1: could be kind of interpreted as questionable circumstances in the
Speaker 1: like midst of literally within like there's a two or
Speaker 1: three month period here where suddenly a bunch of people
Speaker 1: are dying, So I can understand why it would be
Speaker 1: looped in. I don't know that it necessarily is right
Speaker 1: for it to be looped in, but I totally understand
Speaker 1: why people see this one as as connected to the case.
Speaker 1: Next up is um Shawny Warren. And this is the
Speaker 1: only woman on this list, and is also that one
Speaker 1: that we've put the question mark around to be the
Speaker 1: twenty six. I mean, you keep saying they were involved
Speaker 1: in the biz, but Shawnny, she's not the one that
Speaker 1: I put the question Okay, is a journalist? Okay, okay?
Speaker 1: Because I don't I I don't think Shanny is again
Speaker 1: a good one to be put into this. I say
Speaker 1: they're suspicion around her death. I don't disagree with that,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that her employment had any connection.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure we'll find out the game. I apologize,
Speaker 1: Please den tell us what happened. Ms. Warren was a
Speaker 1: personal assistant at a company called micro Scope. Yes, just
Speaker 1: like a microscope but two words. And this company was
Speaker 1: purchased by Marconi about a month after her death. Within
Speaker 1: a month of her death, she was found drowned in
Speaker 1: eighteen whole inches of water. It's actually kind of deep
Speaker 1: based on the situation, well, based on the situation um,
Speaker 1: and was actually pretty close to where Ms David ak
Speaker 1: Robert was found having jumped off the bridge. Um. She
Speaker 1: was found gagged with a noose around her neck, her
Speaker 1: feet were bound, her hands were tied behind her back.
Speaker 1: She was wearing stiletto shoes and business formal attire. The
Speaker 1: Corner lists her death as like open slash under investigation,
Speaker 1: but apparently speculated publicly that she had quote gagged herself,
Speaker 1: tied her feet with a rope, then tied her hands
Speaker 1: behind her back, and hobbled to the lake on stiletto
Speaker 1: heels to drown herself. Maybe he was being like Flip.
Speaker 1: But the hard part about this is there's there. Her
Speaker 1: footprints were in the river bed, but there were no
Speaker 1: other footprints taking her out to the point at which
Speaker 1: she her footprints stopped happening. So you're saying, basically, aliens, yes,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right now. I I this has the stink
Speaker 1: of murder all over it. I call huge bs on this,
Speaker 1: like I wear stiletto shoes every once in a while,
Speaker 1: and I swear to you you try you like we'll
Speaker 1: get you a size whatever, so as you are siletto shoe,
Speaker 1: and we will go down to the river bank and
Speaker 1: you try to walk more than two steps without your
Speaker 1: feet being tied in that mud. And you tell me
Speaker 1: that it's possible that I don't know. I've seen women
Speaker 1: in some pretty pretty snug little skirts that have to
Speaker 1: do the two inch little jitter to move forward in
Speaker 1: mushy mud on a river bank. Yeah, that the shoes
Speaker 1: are going to come off your feet. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: if she moves fast enough, as I saw it, and
Speaker 1: Scooby doo, you can. You can run across the surface
Speaker 1: of the water. Before you start saying you can, that's true.
Speaker 1: It's really easy to do that when your feet are
Speaker 1: tied together. Yeah, and there is there is all kinds
Speaker 1: of hink nous with her death. I am. I'm totally
Speaker 1: on board with that. And by the way, I tried
Speaker 1: to pull the Corners report, also ended up trying to
Speaker 1: pull the police report on her death, and then that
Speaker 1: led me to trying to find them all. It turns out,
Speaker 1: whereas here we can get a lot of that stuff
Speaker 1: depending on where it happened online, Yeah, you can only
Speaker 1: get it in person. In Britain. Well, we have a
Speaker 1: lot of listeners in Britain. We should have called one
Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, well, you know you also got to
Speaker 1: pay for it. Well, they'll pay for it. I thought
Speaker 1: we could find at least one listener in that every
Speaker 1: every district that this was happening should have done that.
Speaker 1: My bad. Well, and I don't. I guess I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily think, you know, I go either way on her
Speaker 1: actual involvement. I mean, if Microscope was purchased by Mark
Speaker 1: Coni and she was a high level executive assistant, she
Speaker 1: would have likely seen most of the correspondence coming in
Speaker 1: and out from the highest levels, which means she would
Speaker 1: have likely had her own clearance, which means she would
Speaker 1: have been privy to some details. But Steve Shaking said,
Speaker 1: because I also think like that could be total b
Speaker 1: s and like that's not accurate at all. You're presuming
Speaker 1: that Microscope was involved in what Marconi was working on.
Speaker 1: They may they may not have been brought in because
Speaker 1: of their Star Wars and um, what was the torpedo name?
Speaker 1: Thank you, I suddenly forgot the name of the torpedo. There's,
Speaker 1: you know, something that was related to it. They may
Speaker 1: have just been a company who had, as we see
Speaker 1: all the time, a great idea and a great start somewhere,
Speaker 1: and Marconi went, we're buying that all we're taking it.
Speaker 1: It could have been you know, it could have been
Speaker 1: a completely they could have actually manufacturing or you know, uh,
Speaker 1: some completely non classified stuff. Maybe just manufacturing equipment that
Speaker 1: Marconi wanted to I mean, I don't know, I had
Speaker 1: no idea what. Well, so I guess we can all
Speaker 1: agree that at least in her case, she was murdered.
Speaker 1: But whether that has something to pertain to the rest
Speaker 1: of these or not, who knows. Little case. So yeah,
Speaker 1: next up Mark Wisner. He was a software engineer at
Speaker 1: the Ministry of Defense. He was found dead in on
Speaker 1: April nine, in the house that he shared with two colleagues.
Speaker 1: He had a plastic sack around his head and several
Speaker 1: feet of cling wrap Saran wrap wrap wrapped around his face.
Speaker 1: May sound similar because that's how Mr Pugh died. This
Speaker 1: death was also ruled an accident against sexual auto erotic asphixiation.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just it is always classified. This is Britain,
Speaker 1: so they just call it an accident. Whereas we have
Speaker 1: this weird descriptive phrase for it. Yeah, but you know,
Speaker 1: Wisener was no into I think this might not have
Speaker 1: been his only time of exploring the kink because there
Speaker 1: are reports of some things. Apparently he had some articles
Speaker 1: of women's attire so they was on him, So it
Speaker 1: may not. This one may actually just be purely an
Speaker 1: accident misadventure of this sexual kind. Fair. Yeah. Um. Michael
Speaker 1: Baker was a digital communications expert who died on May three,
Speaker 1: seven in a fatal car accident. He's the one that
Speaker 1: we were trying to think of earlier. He's the one
Speaker 1: who the other thing. Two other people were in the car.
Speaker 1: They were well, they were unhurt, Thessian guys. I don't
Speaker 1: think they were just two other normal British people who
Speaker 1: were in the car that were not severely injured or
Speaker 1: killed inside accident. Well suspicious, probably not as suspicious, but alone. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Frank Jennings was an electronic weapons engineer and he died
Speaker 1: of a heart attack in June of nine seven. I
Speaker 1: think that's the dumbest thing ever, and just this is
Speaker 1: another pin Yeah, absolutely, that's what I mean by the
Speaker 1: dumbest thing ever. I should clarify. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: done that he died of a heart attack. That's really
Speaker 1: sad Sully that he's included, But I'm gonna includehi anyway,
Speaker 1: because he's on every list you'll see ever, because at
Speaker 1: this point the dominoes are just like right or just
Speaker 1: randomly being yeah. Next up is Russell Smith. He was
Speaker 1: a lab tech at Atomic Energy Research Establishment, which is
Speaker 1: the name of a company. January, he fell off a
Speaker 1: cliff in and died, which was ruled a suicide, even
Speaker 1: though half Yeah, it's kind of weird because they always
Speaker 1: say it was a suicide. He fell, like those are
Speaker 1: the two phrases they use. They're never like he jumped. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's that's an odd attempt to preserve um. God,
Speaker 1: I can't think of the word that I want to
Speaker 1: say for for their their dignity, the year, their honor.
Speaker 1: But you know it's like, he fell, that's what happened,
Speaker 1: and must he must have accidentally fell? He fell on purpose? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he fell on purpose. Yeah. Next up is Trevor Knight.
Speaker 1: He was a computer engineer with Marconi Space and Defense Systems,
Speaker 1: which is Marconi. On March, Mr Knight was found dead
Speaker 1: in his home at the wheel of his car with
Speaker 1: a hose pipe connected to the exhaust. I know this song. Uh.
Speaker 1: Fellow female employee at Marconi claimed that she had found
Speaker 1: three different suicide notes left by him, which made clear
Speaker 1: his intentions of suicide. This female friend also mentioned that
Speaker 1: Mr Knight disliked his work, but she didn't think that
Speaker 1: he was depressed or had any kind of signs of
Speaker 1: suicide or anything like that. Yeah, the next one had
Speaker 1: chosen more interesting. Suicide method is the right word for it.
Speaker 1: Alistair Beckham was a software engineer for Marconi. He was
Speaker 1: found dead in August of eight after being electrocuted in
Speaker 1: his garden shed with wires that connected to his body
Speaker 1: I think via his mouth and then oh no, no,
Speaker 1: you're right, sorry, I'm getting too switched. Um. They were
Speaker 1: in his armpits he wrapped. I think he attached him
Speaker 1: to his body body somehow. Actually it was like kind
Speaker 1: of an improvised de Faber latter, and he had a
Speaker 1: handkerchief stuffed in his mouth. His death is for obvious reasons,
Speaker 1: still under investigation, because that doesn't really seem like a
Speaker 1: suicide thing. Well, that's not how I would choose to
Speaker 1: do it. But yeah, he taped them to both sides
Speaker 1: of his chest, I guess, and I plugged in and
Speaker 1: plugged the cord into the wall. That's the speculation if
Speaker 1: he killed himself, right, I mean, it's because for all accounts,
Speaker 1: he'd come home, he had walked the dog, he had
Speaker 1: gone and gotten the paper, like he had done all
Speaker 1: these very normal routine like things that day, and it
Speaker 1: just randomly walked into the garden shed and wired himself up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which seems a little weird. It does, And actually to
Speaker 1: follow a trend seems kind of like a Russian thing
Speaker 1: to do, But I mean it does. You're laughing, But
Speaker 1: like they like us, car batteries. Car batteries hurt but
Speaker 1: don't kill you. Yeah, well, maybe they were actually aiming
Speaker 1: to kill this time. And actually one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that this might be even more suspicious is that also
Speaker 1: in August of um they think probably auguste. I've seen
Speaker 1: both dates. Perry Ferry, what kind of a name is that? British?
Speaker 1: Was it? Retired army Brigdier and the ass marketing director
Speaker 1: at Marconi. He was also electrocuted. He was electrocuted in
Speaker 1: his company flat, his Marconi company flat with electrical leads
Speaker 1: in his mouth. Apparently he spliced him like between his
Speaker 1: teeth or attached them to his fillings and then just
Speaker 1: plugged into the wall and uncomfortable. It just sounds bad. Yeah, again,
Speaker 1: I think suicide in this case because his parents said
Speaker 1: named him Perry Ferry. I mean, it's weird. It's weird
Speaker 1: that like within a month, two people related to Marconi
Speaker 1: died from cell phone administered electrocution in the same month. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he's weird. But he's the one that had had
Speaker 1: not too long before that some near fatal something in
Speaker 1: a car. He was in a car accident, he was
Speaker 1: trapped in the car, and so he kind of had
Speaker 1: this thing going on, according to people who are around him. Panic.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I still think it's super Russian. I
Speaker 1: like that idea. Joe is biased you. But also like
Speaker 1: in a month, really to Doues electrocuting themselves, it's like
Speaker 1: they hired a new hit man. I mean, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: there are these clusters and we'll talk about those in theories.
Speaker 1: But well there's yeah, there are like several different suicides
Speaker 1: in this one that were rules suicides that are rather bizarre. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about them later. We will in just a minute, actually,
Speaker 1: because we're very close here. Andrew Hall was an engineering
Speaker 1: manager with British Aerospace. He was found dead in September
Speaker 1: by carbon monoxide poisoning in his car with a host
Speaker 1: pipe connected to the exhaust, which was ruled a suicide.
Speaker 1: On board of that story, I really think we need
Speaker 1: to We need to find out who manufactured those hoses
Speaker 1: and sue him probably obviously there was a problem with
Speaker 1: their houses because they were they were putting carbon monoxide
Speaker 1: in people's cars. And then the twenty six one is
Speaker 1: a guy by the name of Johnathon Moyle. He was
Speaker 1: a British defense journalist and he was found hanged in
Speaker 1: his hotel room in Santiago, Chile on April one, and
Speaker 1: it was the rule the suicide officially, but apparently he
Speaker 1: did a lot of the reporting initially on the Stingray torpedo.
Speaker 1: There's that. Do you know who else is loosely connected
Speaker 1: to this story? Reagan Danny Cassilero remember him from the
Speaker 1: Octopus because he worked for what was the magazine Computer World.
Speaker 1: He worked for it owner. I can't remember now, it's
Speaker 1: been so long since we talked about, but they did,
Speaker 1: they did some of the early reporting that was compiling
Speaker 1: this stuff. And I don't know if he was involved
Speaker 1: with it or not, but it's a weird link. We
Speaker 1: always find the strange links between these stories. Conspiracy, conspiracy,
Speaker 1: conspiracy Danny. Danny thought everything was kind of interconnected, you know,
Speaker 1: as it is all different tentacles of the octopus. Theories, theories, theories,
Speaker 1: all your theories. While either it's murder, it's not, it's
Speaker 1: some combination of both. I think a combination. I think
Speaker 1: some of these things that hinky enough. So they were
Speaker 1: all murdered. Let's do that as a theory. They were
Speaker 1: all murdered, every single one of them except for the suicide.
Speaker 1: But as you know, like heart attacks can be induced
Speaker 1: by chemicals, poisons, they can. True. But he was a
Speaker 1: six year old dude. There's that too in the eighties,
Speaker 1: in the eighties, which in Britain was nothing but pork,
Speaker 1: fat and beans every night. Yeah, I believe that's true.
Speaker 1: Right to healthy lifestyle. Yeah, because my culinary experience with
Speaker 1: Britain is completely accurate. I agree. Okay, so we can
Speaker 1: all agree that it's not all murders. Can we also
Speaker 1: all agree that none of these that the theory that
Speaker 1: none of these deaths are suspicious at all. Is silly
Speaker 1: that there's no actual link between any of them? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's silly. That's silly. Yeah, some of them are. And
Speaker 1: you know, and there's also some of them. I mean,
Speaker 1: they could have been murders, but they're not related to
Speaker 1: the defense industry. Also possible. So I have a question. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a smiley face ever found spray painted near
Speaker 1: the bodies? Actually there was. There was a smiley face
Speaker 1: with at a certain distance of everybody. That's true. So
Speaker 1: we are going to go ahead and say that our
Speaker 1: favorite theory is that some of these are questionable and
Speaker 1: some of them are not, right, some of them shouldn't
Speaker 1: be included, right, I agree, Yeah, definitely not. But there
Speaker 1: were four of them, the foremost spectacular suicides, which would
Speaker 1: be Sharif and Sans and Beckham and Ferry at the
Speaker 1: very least. Yeah, those ones that we're talking Sharif, the
Speaker 1: deccapitation by Rope in the car. Well, hang on, Joe,
Speaker 1: let's let's take these in order, because you're you've you've
Speaker 1: actually ignored some that people have pointed out as being
Speaker 1: completely question really suspicious. Yeah, so actually let's just go
Speaker 1: ahead and start. We're gonna we're gonna walk through everyone
Speaker 1: of these again in order. No, we're not, We're not
Speaker 1: doing that. But let's let's start with um. Dr Bowden's
Speaker 1: car accident. He was the very first victim, the very
Speaker 1: first one, way back when before Little Devon ever existed
Speaker 1: in this whole world, Dr Bowden had a car accident.
Speaker 1: The story goes right that Dr Bowden's immaculately maintained land
Speaker 1: rover creamed across a four lane highway and plunged off
Speaker 1: a bridge, down an embankment onto an abandoned rail yard.
Speaker 1: Boden was found on the scene, and nobody else got hurt.
Speaker 1: Nobody else got hurt, nobody else even saw it. Pretty lucky, right.
Speaker 1: There was obviously an inquest in to this, UH and
Speaker 1: the police testified that Boden's blood alcohol level had exceeded
Speaker 1: the legal limit and he had been driving way too fast,
Speaker 1: so he was drunk. He's driving real fast and reckless.
Speaker 1: He accidentally careened off the highway. His wife. Dr Boden's wife,
Speaker 1: her name is Hilary, and her lawyer think that's silly.
Speaker 1: Not silly, it's a cover up, is what they think. UM,
Speaker 1: and actually friends that were with Bowden at the social
Speaker 1: event that he was at prior to his death agree
Speaker 1: he was not drunk. He um had been drinking, but
Speaker 1: he wasn't drunk. They also, well, the friends don't mention,
Speaker 1: but the wife mentions the condition of the car. They
Speaker 1: apparently had a specialist quote unquote specialist examined the car
Speaker 1: um and that specialist told them that somebody had taken
Speaker 1: the wheels off and put old, worn out wheels onto
Speaker 1: his land Rover, which I don't know. I go either way,
Speaker 1: Like all reports are from many different aspects in his life,
Speaker 1: that he loved this car, he maintained it as best
Speaker 1: as he possibly could, and he was a man of well,
Speaker 1: I mean he he didn't. He was a man of means,
Speaker 1: you know. So he would have had tires that had
Speaker 1: the appropriate tread on them. Presumably he would have had
Speaker 1: a car that was in good condition. Um. But apparently
Speaker 1: the police said no, no, that the wheels were worn
Speaker 1: that was part of it. He you know, just took off.
Speaker 1: It could have been that, you know. Of course, being
Speaker 1: a man of means, I mean, this is something they
Speaker 1: look for. Somebody told his rex their cars. They looked
Speaker 1: to see you know, did did did he like replace
Speaker 1: his tires with old, you know, use crappy tires before
Speaker 1: he deliberately wrecked his car to collect you know, an
Speaker 1: insurance payout could have been Maybe he was trying to
Speaker 1: do that well, but he was wealthy enough. I don't
Speaker 1: think he needed he's I mean, tires have a lifetime,
Speaker 1: and there is a point when you come to the
Speaker 1: end of that tires lifetime where the tread is no
Speaker 1: longer safe to drive upon and it is time to
Speaker 1: replace it. And he could have very well been near
Speaker 1: that at the point at which he had his accident.
Speaker 1: And you know what happens when you take a severe
Speaker 1: turn and go across the highway and then down an embankment.
Speaker 1: Everything gets thrash. So it's entirely possible that his tires
Speaker 1: got the torn up. It's it's also possible that somebody
Speaker 1: at the wrecking yard went, you know, that's a nice
Speaker 1: set of tires, and they said he did it well,
Speaker 1: and they they switch him out, at which point then
Speaker 1: this examiner comes it's these are old. This is weird.
Speaker 1: I know, that's that's what I was thinking to let
Speaker 1: it sounds like the guy probably had a really nice
Speaker 1: set of tires on there. The other thing about his
Speaker 1: not being drunk is that if he's at an event.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have ever been an
Speaker 1: event where somebody says, wait, have one for the road,
Speaker 1: and you suddenly have two for the road, and three
Speaker 1: for the road and four for the road, and then
Speaker 1: you hit the road and you're fine when you walk
Speaker 1: out of said location, but then you're five minutes away
Speaker 1: and it starts to hit you. Yeah, it's my understanding.
Speaker 1: It was like a work social function. So one, well,
Speaker 1: that's even more indicative of getting drunk. It's maybe. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it can go either way. Either it is
Speaker 1: totally indicative of him getting drunk, or it's totally indicative
Speaker 1: of him not being drunk, which is kind of a
Speaker 1: bummer because it depends on the kind of person he was,
Speaker 1: and you can only take that from you know, what
Speaker 1: his family says, and his family says he was not
Speaker 1: that kind of guy, But I don't know. Yeah. Next
Speaker 1: up is Walsh, who you may or may not remember,
Speaker 1: was in West Africa and quote unquote tell out of
Speaker 1: a window. They he did have a flight the next day,
Speaker 1: so presumably it's not a suicide, although maybe it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, he was there for a work presumably they
Speaker 1: booked his flights there and back, so hard to tell.
Speaker 1: Our conspiracist friends would say that that is indication that
Speaker 1: he was not intending to take his life while he
Speaker 1: was there. Could have been an accident. Well, but I mean,
Speaker 1: it's also true that it is. It's totally possible it
Speaker 1: was an accident a fall. Next up, while we're talking
Speaker 1: about weirdness, is um dodgy by police say that he
Speaker 1: was depressed? His friends say no, So I'm not sure
Speaker 1: how the police would know and his friends didn't. But okay,
Speaker 1: you can look at a corpse and see like kind
Speaker 1: of bad. Police say he was drunk. Um friends say
Speaker 1: he had never had any alcohol ever. And I think
Speaker 1: that's a religion thing. He was Pakistani, he was likely
Speaker 1: a Muslim, and if he was, you know, that's that's
Speaker 1: a that's a tenant of a lot of different parts
Speaker 1: of But I want to be careful here, because his
Speaker 1: friends didn't say he did drink. They said he rarely drank.
Speaker 1: I've heard that some of his friends said he never drank. Okay,
Speaker 1: But well, the reason I say that is because, in
Speaker 1: the same reporting it is reported that bottles of wine
Speaker 1: were found in his car. Um and you know, and
Speaker 1: that's where I also get that it was the people said, well,
Speaker 1: he never drank while driving, but he would occasionally drink. Okay.
Speaker 1: So the reporting I heard on this, and this is
Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like who knows right.
Speaker 1: The reporting I heard on this is that the police
Speaker 1: um initially said, oh, he was drunk, and his friend
Speaker 1: said no, no, he didn't drink at all, and they said, no, no,
Speaker 1: he was drunk. They we found two paper cups and
Speaker 1: a bottle of an empty bottle of wine in his car.
Speaker 1: He was drinking with a friend and then the friend.
Speaker 1: I don't know where the friend went, but suddenly, you know,
Speaker 1: he was jumping off a bridge. That's what the police said.
Speaker 1: And by the way, that bridge was a location that
Speaker 1: was known for people to go to commit suicide. Yeah
Speaker 1: it was, Yeah, it was convenient high spot. Yeah, no, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I agree, but it's still kind of wonky that, you know,
Speaker 1: his friends would say no, he didn't drink, and the
Speaker 1: police would say, okay, okay, but we found this thing,
Speaker 1: we don't and they just totally disregard the friend. You know,
Speaker 1: they say he was drinking with a friend and then
Speaker 1: suddenly he was committing suicide, and nobody ever says like,
Speaker 1: where was the friend, what was the time frame, what's
Speaker 1: the story there? So I think that's a little odd.
Speaker 1: And then also the whole like injection mark on his
Speaker 1: puncture yeah, ankle, Yeah, I mean it seems weird, right,
Speaker 1: you can't. I don't think that's the sort of thing
Speaker 1: that usually comes from. For two hundred and forty ft.
Speaker 1: Drop a couple of things here. One, let's let's talk
Speaker 1: about his pants being around his ankles. Let's say that
Speaker 1: he went in semi head first, that's one possible account.
Speaker 1: I mean, if anybody has jumped into a dove, into
Speaker 1: a body of water with their shorts not exactly cinched up,
Speaker 1: has experienced having their their pants ripped off of them,
Speaker 1: which is a little embarrassing. Sadly, I've done it in public.
Speaker 1: But the other thing is that if he is falling
Speaker 1: into a moving body of water, and when did he um.
Speaker 1: This was in November, so I don't know what. I
Speaker 1: don't know what the river level was at that time,
Speaker 1: but if a body is tumbling in a moving body
Speaker 1: of water, it is entirely possible that he could have
Speaker 1: been driven into something as simple as a stick or
Speaker 1: a piece of metal and then pulled away. And that's like,
Speaker 1: you are much larger puncture mark than the one they
Speaker 1: were initially speaking about. You're talking about the pants being
Speaker 1: pulled off. Well, no, I'm talking about the puncture wound
Speaker 1: in I mean, think about fencing. Okay, if you've seen
Speaker 1: rigid fencing before, and if people you that at the
Speaker 1: edges of river. Again, I don't know what the area is.
Speaker 1: So I'm guess as they're saying right there, saying it's
Speaker 1: a it's a puncture wound. That's like the size of
Speaker 1: a needle, is what they're talking about. Where is it
Speaker 1: going to come from? But you know what, it may
Speaker 1: not have been the side. It may have been the
Speaker 1: size of a needle when they examined it. But I mean,
Speaker 1: you've seen wounds where something larger in diameter has punctured
Speaker 1: through and torn the flesh and then everything has filled
Speaker 1: back in the void after the fact is that is removed.
Speaker 1: Usually that happens with someone's alive. Though, I mean, it
Speaker 1: couldn't have it right away. I mean, I'm just saying
Speaker 1: I don't think it is as suspicious as it has
Speaker 1: pointed out. I hate conspiracies and I am going to
Speaker 1: rail on this a lot, and I apologize. I can't
Speaker 1: help it. Yeah, So do we want to move on
Speaker 1: since it is an immovable object? I think Mr Sharif's
Speaker 1: wild ride. Yes. Yeah. Mark Cooney initially said that Sharif
Speaker 1: Mr Shariff was just a junior employee and he didn't
Speaker 1: really have anything to do with Star Wars, and he
Speaker 1: didn't really know what was going on. Uh not so
Speaker 1: say the coworkers. Apparently, at the time of his death,
Speaker 1: Mr Shariff was apparently about to be promoted. Also, apparently
Speaker 1: Mr Sharif worked in Mr Dodgy Buys the hardest name
Speaker 1: average pronounced yeah in his department with him. That's he.
Speaker 1: I mean, for both of them to have died in
Speaker 1: relative succession of like kind of questionableness, that seems kind
Speaker 1: of weird. Police also said that Mr Shriff the reason
Speaker 1: that he committed suicide is because he was upset, oh
Speaker 1: for the breakup break up with a woman. It turns
Speaker 1: out that that woman that they initially identified was actually
Speaker 1: his landlady, not his lover. And then the media said, actually, hey, um,
Speaker 1: that woman police that you guys said was his lover,
Speaker 1: that's his landlady. They said, oh, no, no, no, Actually
Speaker 1: the woman was a coworker who was married with children,
Speaker 1: so we didn't want to release her name. And then
Speaker 1: his friends came forward and said, no, he had a
Speaker 1: fiance in Pakistan and he was trying to get her
Speaker 1: into the country, right, and apparently, by like the reports
Speaker 1: that I've read, that was going fine. M over right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it sounded like things were going fine. I mean,
Speaker 1: he had obviously been deemed respectable enough, um that he
Speaker 1: had been given clearance. I mean he worked on top
Speaker 1: secret projects for Marconi under contract from the Crown. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, for him to say, hey, my fiance wants
Speaker 1: to come here, it seems reasonable that that process would
Speaker 1: have been fairly smooth. They, by no accounts were breaking up.
Speaker 1: So I don't really know where the police we're getting
Speaker 1: this information. Well, the suicide angle is from the fact
Speaker 1: that he left a tape, if not more than one
Speaker 1: tape in his car that they there was of himself.
Speaker 1: The police did say that they say that they found
Speaker 1: tapes of his voice that were indicative of a suicide. Note,
Speaker 1: the police do say that yes, it might. It might
Speaker 1: be that, I would say, in um Pakistan, where they
Speaker 1: have a lot of arranged marriages, it might be that
Speaker 1: that was a source of his depression. It's in because
Speaker 1: he might not Yeah, he might have actually not really
Speaker 1: wanted to go through with this marriage. Now it's looking
Speaker 1: like it's going to succeed. He's like, you know, this sucks.
Speaker 1: I'd rather be dead than marry her. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's there's a there's a whole list of of possible
Speaker 1: reasons that he could have decided to take his own life.
Speaker 1: And as we talked about before initially, is that you know,
Speaker 1: like I've seen this method of suicide is usually kind
Speaker 1: of it's kind of revenge edge to it. That seems
Speaker 1: still it seems weird from what I've read from his
Speaker 1: life at that time. It seems weird. But that but
Speaker 1: if he was actually, if he'd actually broken up with somebody,
Speaker 1: I I don't know, we don't do you know, because
Speaker 1: I don't know if this was actually his car was
Speaker 1: his car? You know that for sure? I mean I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's like there's that revenge act of Okay, well,
Speaker 1: screw it. I'm gonna I'm gonna destroy this car with myself.
Speaker 1: I think it was his car, Okay, I don't know
Speaker 1: that it was his Audi that he purchased with his
Speaker 1: Mark Co money. I mean, then then that is not
Speaker 1: a that is not a viable angle. That's why I
Speaker 1: said I didn't know. I kind of like the idea
Speaker 1: of borrowing somebody's car for that. I know you have
Speaker 1: two other ones that you want. Well, there's details about
Speaker 1: two others that that seem weird. So there's Britain. He's
Speaker 1: the one who was found under the car in an
Speaker 1: odd angle. Yeah, theory about because you just are an
Speaker 1: Asayer tonight. But it's it's it's weird. I see people
Speaker 1: saying that he was at an odd angle, jammed under there.
Speaker 1: But Joe had been talking about the fact that, you know,
Speaker 1: I once touched an exhaust pipe and it was hot,
Speaker 1: and I have been under a car and done something similar,
Speaker 1: and your immediately uncontrollable reaction is to involuntarily jerk your body,
Speaker 1: at which point, if you're underneath the vehicle, you know
Speaker 1: what you do. You hit the undercarriage of the car
Speaker 1: with your head. I have almost knocked myself out under
Speaker 1: a car before. So I can see a guy who
Speaker 1: crawls under they say it's a weird angle. But if
Speaker 1: he crawls under there and he something happens, he touches
Speaker 1: something it's hot, and he inadvertently jerks and whales his noggin,
Speaker 1: he's then going to be incapacitated and he may have
Speaker 1: some kind of convulsion. I don't know, but that may
Speaker 1: explain how he wedged himself farther under there. I kind
Speaker 1: of like the idea of two burly Russian guys you
Speaker 1: love you know what? That is your explanation for everything.
Speaker 1: It's amazing we kept that out of the Murrow Murray
Speaker 1: Eppiside's hard. It's hard with the like domino effect of
Speaker 1: this though right where you think, okay, well one time
Speaker 1: of like one guy accidentally weighing in his head and dying.
Speaker 1: But when you take in fact that you know within
Speaker 1: a year period five and I know that, so that
Speaker 1: that that comes up though that's in the final theory.
Speaker 1: There's there's a stress aspect that is in the final
Speaker 1: theory that we'll talk about. But I have one more
Speaker 1: because I I have a kind of simple explanation for
Speaker 1: one more, and that is David Sands. He's the guy
Speaker 1: who drove into the cafe or the cafeteria, and he
Speaker 1: had gotten all those gas cans several days is ahead
Speaker 1: of time, and it's to five gallant cans of fuel
Speaker 1: that he petrol that he had in his car he
Speaker 1: ted in well, as I remember gas cans in seven
Speaker 1: they had a plug in one end and a screw
Speaker 1: cap on the other, and none of that was extremely tight.
Speaker 1: So I remember walking into buildings when I was a
Speaker 1: kid that had one or two gas cans and they
Speaker 1: weeked of fumes. So it's very possible he had he
Speaker 1: had he had gone and gotten gassed several days before
Speaker 1: and then disappeared for a four hour drive, at which
Speaker 1: point he told his wife he was thinking and he
Speaker 1: didn't remember much of his drive, and now he gets
Speaker 1: in his car again, which is full of gas fumes
Speaker 1: and is driving around. It is completely possible that this
Speaker 1: guy was inadvertently hoffing gas and out of his head,
Speaker 1: or maybe he just lit a cigarette them yeah, actually
Speaker 1: rupped it into a fireball, and then what happens. That's
Speaker 1: why he made that weird turn, because he'd be jerked
Speaker 1: a wheel and just happened to drive into that that
Speaker 1: little offshoot road. But again, that's super lucky. But it's
Speaker 1: it's also it's just people do stupid stuff. I know
Speaker 1: so many people that used to use the screw top
Speaker 1: gas cans to store gas and then you would walk
Speaker 1: over and I would touch the lid and it would
Speaker 1: fall off, like, oh, I thought I screwed that back
Speaker 1: on last time I used it. Like, these are very
Speaker 1: plausible reasons. They are, But then we start talking about
Speaker 1: like taking as a whole, right, and I grant you.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think for me it's like and I
Speaker 1: don't want to take them as a hole because I
Speaker 1: think taking that a hole is too simple of an approach.
Speaker 1: That's why it bothers me conspiracy. But I mean, I
Speaker 1: think for others it is it's like, really, seriously, you
Speaker 1: think that two dudes died of electrocution within it, like
Speaker 1: within you know, ten days of each other. That's insane
Speaker 1: to me. I'm also going to say though, that the
Speaker 1: whole running my car in the garage is a trope
Speaker 1: and everybody knew about it. Yeah, and there is the
Speaker 1: phenomena of copycats, so it maybe that he said, oh wow,
Speaker 1: I heard about this guy at the company you know
Speaker 1: that might actually be kind of a quick way to
Speaker 1: do it. I'm going to do that. Are doing it,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it. So here are the two
Speaker 1: I guess additional addundum theories. Right, is that like there's
Speaker 1: a hitman, because there are nice little clusters of Oh, hey,
Speaker 1: for a year, these people died this way, and then
Speaker 1: for another year, for a year was the Russians, then
Speaker 1: it was the Chinese, and it was the American. It
Speaker 1: is a nice cluster, I'll give you that, it is.
Speaker 1: It's really clean the delineation between each of those. But
Speaker 1: then you know there's the other fact of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stress involved, right, so we start
Speaker 1: talking about why, right, why would these deaths be why
Speaker 1: would they need murders or why would they be suicides?
Speaker 1: And like why would these things happen? For suicide, It's
Speaker 1: probably a pretty easy answer. These people are under a
Speaker 1: lot of stress, and they're developing essentially weapons of fairly
Speaker 1: mass destruction, and they can't talk to anybody, and they
Speaker 1: can't they can't really talk about it. They're not mass destruction,
Speaker 1: but they are powerful weapons, big destruction. In my world,
Speaker 1: that's mass destruction. It's not like thousands of people. But
Speaker 1: you're not torpedo. If you take out a submarineer a ship,
Speaker 1: well a lot of people, you're kieople yet. But I
Speaker 1: also I also remember Joe and I don't know, I
Speaker 1: know Devin won't because you're you're too young. But for you,
Speaker 1: if you remember this, my dad was worked for a
Speaker 1: government organization, and I remember this kind of we're overarching
Speaker 1: cloud of stress of just like where in the hell
Speaker 1: the world was and what we were going through in
Speaker 1: terms of the Cold War, and it weighed on some
Speaker 1: people more than others. And while my pop wasn't in
Speaker 1: any kind of direct secret thing, he dealt with things
Speaker 1: that to this day, you know, I can't get him
Speaker 1: to breathe a word of and it's a it's a
Speaker 1: very clean line of I shut it down. So there's
Speaker 1: also there is this weird stress level that happened. There's
Speaker 1: also I mean, there's two other things that play here, right,
Speaker 1: There's the British stiff upper lip. Also the fact that
Speaker 1: you can't talk about this stuff. Well yeah, the top
Speaker 1: secret nature of that. But I'll also include the harmful
Speaker 1: aspects of reinforced masculinity at this time, right, I think
Speaker 1: you're I think that you guys are like trending too
Speaker 1: hard towards suicide here, I mean some of them. No,
Speaker 1: I don't think it that. No, I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: are you ever to say earlier four of them have
Speaker 1: something in common besides the fact that their desks were
Speaker 1: ruled suicide. That would be sharif stands, Beckham and Ferry,
Speaker 1: and so they were. They were all bizarre suicide things
Speaker 1: from we got the guy with who decapitated himself with
Speaker 1: his car in a rope, We got the guy with
Speaker 1: the gas cans in the car, and then we got
Speaker 1: the two guys who elextrocuted themselves one of the chests,
Speaker 1: one of the mouth, So all very strange suicide methods,
Speaker 1: and then the other. The other thing they have in
Speaker 1: common is they all had made appointments to meet with
Speaker 1: their MPs. That's true for and what's the course, never
Speaker 1: never happened, and so that's kind of intriguing. No, I agree,
Speaker 1: And that's why that's where I would go in, and
Speaker 1: that's why I'm not going with the pure suicide theory.
Speaker 1: No, no no, no, no, I absolutely agree with you. I
Speaker 1: am just trying to give a bit of historic framing
Speaker 1: for some people who may not be thinking in that context.
Speaker 1: I'm happy to go down. I'm actually happier to go down,
Speaker 1: because you see, the most of these people were murdered
Speaker 1: avenue than I am Steve's avenue. But the whole Cold
Speaker 1: War thing is that what you have to understand about
Speaker 1: the Cold War as I looked through part of it,
Speaker 1: and that is that in the in the late forties
Speaker 1: and in the fifties, it was a much more paranoid
Speaker 1: time and bye by this time the late eighties, of course,
Speaker 1: and nobody knew it. I mean, nobody knew that it
Speaker 1: was almost the Soviet Union was about to fall just
Speaker 1: a few years, and we you know, everybody thought it
Speaker 1: was going to be around for much much, much longer
Speaker 1: than that. And it was a big shock and surprise
Speaker 1: wasn't surprise when it all came tumbling down. But still
Speaker 1: by by that, by that point in time, things is
Speaker 1: stabilized to the point that everybody felt like that the
Speaker 1: actual possibility of warfare or nuclear warfare and all that
Speaker 1: stuff was remote. Yeah. So, I mean, so the big
Speaker 1: pressure in the Cold War was was really like the
Speaker 1: furties and fifties. Well, but you know, and and the
Speaker 1: other the other way to go. I mean, you've called
Speaker 1: out those four as really odd suicides. The other two
Speaker 1: that are looked at as suicides are the ones that
Speaker 1: were tied up with the cling wrap around their heads, right,
Speaker 1: and you know those are suspicious. Well they're suspicious because
Speaker 1: I didn't know this until I was doing some of
Speaker 1: the readings that like, that is a great It turns
Speaker 1: out that's a great way to discredit somebody. How you've
Speaker 1: labeled them a pervert. According to the general population, what
Speaker 1: did that person do? And I never I was like
Speaker 1: they were trying something, or somebody was over and they
Speaker 1: had an accident and somebody just left. I was like, oh, oh,
Speaker 1: it's you know, modern thinking versus eighties thinking. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: that really does just destroy all credibility of their person. Well,
Speaker 1: and there's a there's a lot of stuff about whistleblowing
Speaker 1: and well, yeah, you're kind of catch twenty two with
Speaker 1: a lot of people, especially like when things are changing
Speaker 1: like they were in the like eighties with the Cold War, right,
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union to come tumbling down. You know, we're
Speaker 1: kind of things are being revealed like Star Wars was
Speaker 1: revealed right to the media, and suddenly the regular administration
Speaker 1: was like, oh, yeah, we were doing this thing. Cool um.
Speaker 1: And so I think there was this kind of sense
Speaker 1: or there's the potential for this kind of sense of
Speaker 1: if you're working on these projects, right, you had this
Speaker 1: pressure to either be a whistleblower and reveal what you
Speaker 1: knew or what are you what are they revealing? What
Speaker 1: I mean, if they knew something top secret, if they
Speaker 1: knew about some project, whatever they knew about, say, you
Speaker 1: know cost, I mean you know often like you know
Speaker 1: cost overruns that actually it turns out we're just you know,
Speaker 1: phony that kind of thing, or any kind of I
Speaker 1: mean just moral anything like that, sort of bribery, things
Speaker 1: like that. So that's that's why the whole it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of interesting, these these four guys that killed themselves
Speaker 1: in bizarre ways. I wanted to talk to their MP.
Speaker 1: Oh by the way, if you're not from Britain, MP
Speaker 1: is a member of Parliament. I should have probably said
Speaker 1: that earlier. It's it's like your congressman, yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 1: so I think there's like that sense of like at
Speaker 1: that time, right, that's a very pivotal moment of like
Speaker 1: either you are a whistleblower or you're implicated in an inquest, right,
Speaker 1: And I think I've seen that thrown around a lot
Speaker 1: on the internet. In terms of why that would be
Speaker 1: that these people are being murdered was because they were
Speaker 1: They may have known something, they may have thought they
Speaker 1: known something, they may have known nothing, but they may
Speaker 1: have been making appointments to meet with people who you
Speaker 1: would traditionally meet with if you were to be a whistleblower.
Speaker 1: That could have been I don't know. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know that it's a good theory. Well, actually, so
Speaker 1: you have connected for me the dots that I had
Speaker 1: not been able to connect. In the reading which is
Speaker 1: there there's writings about you know, going to see their
Speaker 1: their their MPs, and and then there was writings about
Speaker 1: the fact that some of these people were complaining about
Speaker 1: the unscientific nature of the tasks that they were assigned.
Speaker 1: In other words, they it sounded like they were assigned
Speaker 1: to do really stupid stuff and they were like, dude,
Speaker 1: why am I doing this? And now I understand the
Speaker 1: implication of that is that it was an excuse to
Speaker 1: run your time to build for something just to build
Speaker 1: for something. In other words, saying you came to work
Speaker 1: all week and building for forty hours, but actually sitting
Speaker 1: at home and watching the telly the whole time. What
Speaker 1: could have been Actually, that could have been so much
Speaker 1: as just being shown aside and into something else. Because
Speaker 1: they've gotten somebody that may be upstairs. It kind of
Speaker 1: gotten the idea that you were maybe going to wrap
Speaker 1: them out, so they wanted to get you away from
Speaker 1: the project. That's why they put you out something meaningless
Speaker 1: and stupid. But but then that that lens now, Okay,
Speaker 1: that that makes the connection for me of some of
Speaker 1: the things that I had read about like well, why
Speaker 1: is this murder? And I was like, well, that does
Speaker 1: maybe freaking sense now it makes sense to why now
Speaker 1: they see, oh they've they've gotten angry enough, they're going
Speaker 1: to go complain to somebody who was in a position
Speaker 1: to do something about it. It's possibly that. And also,
Speaker 1: let's not let's not forget actually it's not that uncommon
Speaker 1: for scientists to be murdered by the opposition. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: can't be flipped. Yeah, that's it's not that uncommon. Um,
Speaker 1: And so it's it's happened playing you know. That's one
Speaker 1: of the things that I always I've always been curious
Speaker 1: there are certain people who did come to this country
Speaker 1: after World War Two and worked for us, and I
Speaker 1: wonder how many of them didn't come here because they
Speaker 1: didn't want to turn a lot. Yeah, I'm sure we
Speaker 1: could do a lot of episodes on that. Let's not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that. I think a lot of Germans came
Speaker 1: here because in all this face at their country had
Speaker 1: been flattened oppuch better over, So I I think it's
Speaker 1: probably there are a few of these that are kind
Speaker 1: of tossed in here. But I do think it's reasonable
Speaker 1: to think that a lot of these suicides are suspect
Speaker 1: and probably not actually suicides. Yeah, I call this a
Speaker 1: mixed bag. This is a mix for me, really, actually,
Speaker 1: fifty fifty I'm using rough for me, there's twenty five
Speaker 1: of them. I don't want to do that kind of map.
Speaker 1: For me, it's six of them, twenty five bad, seventy innocent.
Speaker 1: The other way around, I think of them are probably
Speaker 1: pretty innocent. I think seventy of them are in nefarious
Speaker 1: in some way. Whether they're all connected to each other
Speaker 1: or not, I don't know, But I think seventy of
Speaker 1: the swarmers. Yeah, you know some of them. I mean,
Speaker 1: like you know, the guys that made their appointments with
Speaker 1: their MP's. Of course. Well, maybe we can maybe leave
Speaker 1: Sharif out of this because he had made an appointment
Speaker 1: before his MP to talk about his wife. I don't
Speaker 1: think I can leave but anyway, it was about her.
Speaker 1: But I don't think I can leave him out of
Speaker 1: there because I think that's clever. But yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: true too. Uh So some of them were maybe murdered
Speaker 1: by you know, agentes of Marconi, the Defense, and then
Speaker 1: some of the other ones were maybe murdered by the
Speaker 1: Russians or even the US. Oh yeah, you ask, well,
Speaker 1: who knows? I mean, we're murdered by Kraft. Well, but
Speaker 1: I mean because it's Macarona, not Marca. It turns out
Speaker 1: they were stealing the macaroni and cheese, the liquid gold,
Speaker 1: the secret formula before Velvita got the best. Hey, do
Speaker 1: you have anything else to add? That's what I'm talking
Speaker 1: about cheese. No, No, I'm just like you know, I
Speaker 1: don't think we're likely to sell its mystery time to say. No,
Speaker 1: I don't think so either, But I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: to talk about. Uh So, if you want to see
Speaker 1: some of the links to our research, you can find
Speaker 1: that on our website. That's Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: We are, of course on iTunes, We're on Google Play,
Speaker 1: We're streaming pretty much everywhere. UM, so you should subscribe
Speaker 1: and rate and review if you haven't done that on
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Speaker 1: and like the page. We have Twitter, which is Thinking Sideways.
Speaker 1: We do have a subreddit which is Thinking Sideways. It's
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Speaker 1: just pretty much. We like those emails the most. That
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Speaker 1: then if you'd like to support the show in any way,
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Speaker 1: we're not, you know, we don't. We're not trying to
Speaker 1: make income on this or anything like that. We just
Speaker 1: want to cover our costs, which has been pretty successful
Speaker 1: really totally. So thank you so much for that. And
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Speaker 1: E O N Yeah, google it, don't try to do
Speaker 1: it by yourself. Um, all of that having been said,
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna jet on out of here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. To the Loue people, we'll talk to
Speaker 1: you next week. Everybody