1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: M start talking to people. Told him that I was. 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: I was a bricklayer from Tennessee that recently moved here 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: and my wife got a job in Hot Springs, and 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: now I like the little turkey hunting And I actually 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: asked a guy, Hey, if you have the best turkey 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: hunt around here, who would be I'd like to talk 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: to somebody about turkey hunt. You need to talk to 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: Louis Dale. On this third part of our Genuine Outlaw series, 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: we're going behind the veil into the realm of the 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 1: covert operations of the government. In a strange twist, we 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: were able to get an interview with the federal undercover 12 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: officer who worked a sting operation on Louis Dell Edwards 13 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties. The Edwards brothers, Charlie and Louis 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: Dell were notorious turkey hunting violators, moonshiners, and could be 15 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: straight up rough men. But we're also beloved, respected men, 16 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: known for their honesty, genuine nature, and generosity. Some even 17 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: describe them as pure. I grew up knowing these men 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: and them in a process of personal exploration of why 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: I am endeared to them, we'll spend half of our 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: time with this secret agent and the second half with 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Rupe as he lays out for us the 22 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: anthropological foundations of why Western culture is enamored without laws. 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: This whole series, I've been trying to make sense of 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: why we're often endeared to these guys who don't play 25 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: by the rules, and its origins will surprise you. Of 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 1: all the Dad Gubb Bear Grease podcasts we've ever made, 27 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: this one I doubt you're gonna want to miss. And hey, 28 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to the first two parts of 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: this series, which were bio sketches of the Edwards brothers, 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: you might be lost with some of these characters, so 31 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: be sure to listen to part one and two. Ego 32 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: is a very bad thing in the world of hunting, 33 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: and uh the particular group obviously the information I heard 34 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: about them, that is, they were very ego driven in 35 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: their in their taking of animals. They wanted to be 36 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: the ones that couldn't be caught. My name is Clay 37 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll 38 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, 39 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived 40 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: their lives close to the land presented by f HF Gear, 41 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed 42 00:02:49,480 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the places we explore. LOOKI Tulsa, 43 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: and I heard this restrict of Ludel's mouth. He was 44 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: at the house one day and the guy shows up 45 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: at his house and Ludell said, a big, old tall 46 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: he said, a nice looking guy, strong built, and he said. 47 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: He knocked on his door, and he went to the door, 48 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: and Loudell said, amen, what could do for He said, 49 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: I hear you're a turkey hunter. He said, I'm from 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: Tennessee and he said, I stopped down by the Big 51 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: FOURK store and asked around, and they said, you're the 52 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: guy that would take me turkey. And this is two 53 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: or three weeks for a season. Hen Loudell says, well, 54 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: you know it's not so he said, I don't care. 55 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: He said, if you take me here, he said, can 56 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: you take me? He said sure, I'll take you turke 57 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: hn And he said, well, you'll be over here at 58 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: four thirty in the morning. And he said next morning, 59 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: old boys are at four thirty. And Loudell said, he 60 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: gives a boy some credit because they talked and everything. 61 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: He said he was the best he ever heard on 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: a turkey call. With the mouth call. He said he 63 00:03:54,760 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: was the best he ever heard, the best he ever heard. 64 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to introduce you to a man named Russ Arthur. 65 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: That's his real name, but he hasn't always used it. 66 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: Russ is now sixty three years old, and in the 67 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties he was in his early thirties. Oddly, he 68 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: fits the description to the t that Louis Dell gave 69 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: of this Tennessee turkey hunter. Russ is about six ft 70 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: two and kind of built like a retired nineteen eighties 71 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: w WF wrestler, and by my best estimation and at 72 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: least by one other hill billy, he's a nice looking feller. 73 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: When you meet him, you're struck by his genuine nature 74 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: and he can't hide that he's his country. As Cornbread 75 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: turns out, he's an incredible voice mouth caller, no doubt, 76 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: one of the best I've ever heard. It's kind of spooky. 77 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: See can you mouth call like with your physical voice? Uh? 78 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes if yeah, I want to hear your barred owl hoot, 79 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: you gotta yelp. That's just with his mouth. That's not 80 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: a call. It's slightly unnerving sitting here talking to Russ 81 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: after hearing Louis Delle's description of this strange man oddly 82 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: appearing at his house in Arkansas. The Russ I'm talking 83 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: to is a real man, clearly a real turkey hunter. 84 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: He's a real bricklayer, and he's really from Tennessee. Louis 85 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: Delle and I talked to the same guy, but back 86 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: then he wasn't Russ. He was someone else. You see. 87 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: Russ worked his entire career for the United States Force 88 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: Service Law Enforcement Division, and in the nineteen nineties he 89 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: worked a stint of that time in Arkansas. He said 90 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: it was one of the most memorable parts of his career. 91 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: But he's been retired for almost a decade. After I 92 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: did the first episode in this series, I had someone 93 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: privately contact me and say, nobody in the community knows this, 94 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: but I know the undercover agent who worked the case 95 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: on Louis Dell. I was giddy. I was able to 96 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: contact Russ, drive eight hours to where he lived, and 97 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: he agreed to talk to me as long as we 98 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: didn't speak negatively about the Edwards family, because he respected 99 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: them as people. There were at least two undercover operations 100 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: with the Edwards brothers, but none of it fully revealed 101 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: until now here's Andy with more of what Louis Dell 102 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: told him about the incident. But he said, I'm not 103 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: ready to go, said get you good, and a boy said, well, 104 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: where's your gun? He said, well, don't you worry about 105 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: if Turkey goub was morning. He said, I'll find a gun. 106 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: But he loads him up and dropped him off and 107 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: picked him up back east down there that morning. But 108 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: they'd sent they'd sent that lit us and they sent it. 109 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: A boy in there trying to trying to get me 110 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: to mess up. Did he know the whole time that 111 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: he was entertaining the undercovered guy. He suspicion it's the 112 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: whole tel. He's suspicioned that the whole time, and he recalled. 113 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: But he may not have come up with this completely 114 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: on his own, and some details will point to that 115 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: he didn't suspicion it the whole time at all. Turns 116 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: out Louis Dell had some help from the community. But 117 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: you'll have to wait to find out. How you remember 118 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: retired Arkansas Game and Fish game board and Jimmy Martin 119 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: from part one of the series. Here he is giving 120 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: us some broader context into the undercover operations on the 121 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: Edwards brothers. There were several operations over several years where 122 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: we would have, like to say, people from the Fishing 123 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: Wildlife Service, u S, Forest Service, different undercover agents would 124 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: come in and uh, how would how would they get 125 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: their name? I mean, would it be like, how would 126 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: they get Louis Elle's name? My supervisor and we communicated 127 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: with Fishing, Wildlife and Forest Service all the time. We 128 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: we used undercover agents all the time, not just on 129 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: Louis Delle or they'd be used all over the state 130 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: on different things like striper fishermen. We used them on 131 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: when the whites were running up the river for netting, 132 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: people that were net and fish, illegal bear hunting. The 133 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: big one from my supervisor was Loui Delle and Charlie. 134 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: He wanted the people called. He wanted, you know, to 135 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: be the one look at me. I caught Louis Delle, 136 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: look at me. We never didn't make it. The most 137 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: interesting part of all these interviews is hearing the different 138 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: angles into the same story. We might be surprised to 139 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: learned that they could have busted Louis Dell. This next 140 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: twenty minute interview with undercover agent Russ Arthur is one 141 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: of the most unique I've been a part of it 142 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: was like talking to a ghost, to a man that 143 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: didn't really exist. It was so interesting because I heard 144 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,359 Speaker 1: multiple stories of the brothers suspecting they'd entertained undercover agents, 145 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: but none of the agents ever surfaced, as they say 146 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: in the business until now Here's retired Forest Service law 147 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: enforcement agent Russ Arthur. What years were you in Arkansas? 148 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: I was in Arkansas ninety, so I would have been 149 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: eleven years old when you were over there. I think 150 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: I remember seeing you. I think he's actually riding it 151 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: back with ninety. How would people get selected to have 152 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: a job done on them? They would just have notoriety 153 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: inside the communities and the local guys couldn't catch them. 154 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: I mean, is that is that how it would work? Well, 155 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: that's part of it. But you know, when I moved 156 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: to Arkansas, you know, keeping mind, my number one job 157 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: was not undercover work. Uh, it was just a probably 158 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: of my work that I did when I was in 159 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: Arkansas was undercover. A lot of it was just you know, 160 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: overt investigations, of crimes on federal land, on service land, 161 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: whether it be in the drug world or the timber 162 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: theft world or the wildfire arsenal world. So you know, 163 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: I was a criminal investigator that investigated all crimes out there, 164 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: and occasionally information would come in that we've got a 165 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: need for an undercover operation, and there are several things 166 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: that you have to look at, and I had a 167 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: supervisor that was that was very familiar with that state. 168 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: But information would come up through the field level, either 169 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: through other agencies or through our own agency, of a 170 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: need for potential undercover and then there were litmus tests 171 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: he would go through to see and set down, and 172 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: we'd say, hey, do we need to do this? Is 173 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: it worth while spending time on this? How egregious is it? 174 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: You know all those things you have to go in? 175 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: Is it? Is it dangerous? Is it something that's gonna 176 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: take a week? Is it something's gonna take it two years? 177 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: So you have to look at that, But a lot 178 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: of that is word of mouth of communities. Yes, so 179 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,599 Speaker 1: the local game wardens probably would it just would have 180 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: gone up the chain and the gaming fish that these 181 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: brothers were killing more turkeys than they should have. Oh, Yeah. 182 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: I heard about these particular individuals for for a year 183 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: or two when I was out there, from the game 184 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: wardens and from the local Force service officer. Do you 185 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: remember what they said. Did they give numbers to how 186 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: many birds they were killing or anything? No, the Uh, 187 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: the only thing that I remember is these guys are killers, 188 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: and you know that they need to be stopped and 189 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: nobody can catch them. And it became a very apparent 190 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: to me. Uh. And I'll still stand by this that 191 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: ego is a very bad thing in the world of hunting. 192 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I truly truly believe believe that. And uh, 193 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: this particular group, obviously the information I heard about him, 194 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: that is they were very ego driven in their in 195 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: their taking of animals. They wanted to be the ones 196 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: that couldn't be caught. They wanted to be the ones 197 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: that couldn't be caught. This lines up perfectly with what 198 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,719 Speaker 1: we've heard everywhere else. To the Edwards brothers, evading the 199 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: law was a game. To me. I don't want to 200 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: say it's comical, but I want to ask you something. 201 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: If you're an officer, and let's say you and Joe 202 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: were the only two officers in a two hundred thousand 203 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: acre county and a hundred fifty thousand acres, and that's 204 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: federal land, fifty thousand that's private land that's got cattle ranches, 205 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: farm land. Your phone was ringing off the wall. I've 206 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: got a haulk it's dead over here, I've got this 207 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: it's going over here, and you've got all this vast 208 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: area over there. Is it really an achievement that you 209 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: can allude to people that are that busy. You're obviously 210 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: a good hunter. You when you go in the woods, 211 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: your senses go up. You know how to read them, 212 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: lap and say, you're pretty good navigator. You've got a 213 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: good sense of bearing, good sense of weather coming and going, 214 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: good sense of animal movement. You know where to go 215 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: in and go out. It would be that hard taking 216 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: what these officers are up against to elude them. So 217 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: I find it kind of comical because I don't think 218 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: that the common people in the community is realize what 219 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: officers are up against. That's a mic drop comment from Russ. 220 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: Game boardings can't work twenty four hours a day, they 221 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: have days off, they have limitations, and most of the 222 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: time they have to be reactionary and not proactive in 223 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: enforcing the law. As a little context, the United States 224 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: Forest Service Law Enforcement Division is commissioned to enforce the 225 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: law on the federal lands on which they have jurisdiction. 226 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: Much of the Edwards Brothers hunting was done on Forest 227 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: Service land. I asked Russ why the Forest Service was 228 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: tasked to try to catch them, and he said, the 229 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: state game agencies in federal law enforcement often work together 230 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: on these type of projects, and they just felt like 231 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: he'd be a good fit on this case. It was 232 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: that simple. Here's Russ describing how the sting went down. 233 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: Do you remember how did you engage Edwards Brothers. Okay, 234 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: it was very well known when I was in Arkansas, 235 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: within my work force, if you will, that I was 236 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: an avid turkey hunter. So they obviously said, Man, I 237 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: think I think you're the guy to go do this 238 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: turkey deal. I mean, you know, you like turkey hunting, 239 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: you understand turkey hunters. And and I was like, well, 240 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, is is he charging people to hunt on 241 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: no forest? Well no, I don't think he is. Him 242 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: and his brother they just they just kill everything they see. Well, 243 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: why can't you catch him? Just can't catch him? Uh? Well, 244 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: is he is he is he baiting. Well, I'm not 245 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: sure if he's bating turkeys or not, but rumor has 246 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: it he does walk throughs. He'll get dropped off one place, 247 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: picked up another, and he hides guns and stop poles. 248 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: So you hear all these rumors. I think it would 249 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: have probably have been ninety two, probably maybe ninety three. 250 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: And my supervisor came to me and he said, do 251 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: you want to give a shot? You know? And I said, yeah, 252 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: well we'll give a shot. And he said, well, let's 253 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: let's lay a plan out. And uh, you know how 254 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: the govern is, you have to have a plan for everything. 255 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: So I drafted up a pretty generic plan and he 256 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: approved it, and uh and and it consisted of, you know, 257 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: playing on their ego. What I know about turkey hunters, 258 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: there were very territorial over their hunting there, probably more 259 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: so than than any other group that I know. So 260 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: I had an undercover truck, had a Tennessee tag on it. 261 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: About a month for that turkey season, I started going 262 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: out scouting in areas that I knew louis Dale frequented hunting. 263 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: No one that he would probably see my truck just 264 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: as a seed, if you will. I never ran into 265 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: him in the woods. But I parked it two or 266 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: three different places predominantly though I knew that he would 267 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: have to come by. What would you do when you went? 268 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: Would you actually walk out in the woods. Oh yeah, 269 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: I'd walk out in the woods, but I didn't normally 270 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: just turn around, watch my truck and see what vehicles 271 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: came by, See if anybody slowed down and looked at it. 272 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: And I had vehicles slowed down and look at it, 273 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: and you'd part it with the license plates where you 274 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: could see it, and uh, word would get out there 275 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: somebody from Tennessee run here. Yeah, what's the name of 276 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: the little store down there? Well, the big malls what 277 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: they call it? Right, I ended up stopping I stopped 278 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: in there two or three times and just get a 279 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: coke and a pack of crackers, and uh start talking 280 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: to people. Told him that I was it was a 281 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: brick player from Tennessee that that recently moved here. And 282 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: my wife got a job in Hot Springs And now 283 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: I like a little turkey hunting. And I actually asked 284 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: a guy, if you had the best turkey hunt around here, 285 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: who would it be. I'd like to talk to somebody 286 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: about turkey hunt. He said, you need to talk to 287 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: Louis Dale. And I said, who's that? You knew what 288 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: he's gonna say, And I said who you know? I said, well, 289 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: who's that? And what he he? Oh? Yeah, hell, he'll 290 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: talk to you about he loves turkey. He did he 291 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: Did this guy give you any intel that Louis dell 292 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: Wood was a by later? No, he just said he 293 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: was turkey hunter, good turkey hunter. And I said, well, 294 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: how did I get in Dutch with him? Said, here, 295 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: I'll call him, and he called him. He picked up 296 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: the phone, he called him and uh, he got him 297 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: on the phone and put me on the phone with him, 298 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: and and he said, well, why don't you come up 299 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: to the house. And he told me how to get 300 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: into the house. So he was real open to a 301 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: guy from Tennessee. Yeah, yes he was. Was that surprising? 302 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: Oh well, I was hoping by then that his curiosity 303 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: had that he had already known there was somebody pope 304 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: around because back then everybody knew where everybody hunted, and 305 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: everybody knew what everybody drove, and just a Tennessee tag 306 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: back in there would have been super unusual, exactly, And 307 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: and I knew that it was probably circulating around that community, 308 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: and eventually it turned out that it was. That was 309 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: the first thing as the first as the first thing 310 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: he said when I pulled up next front yard, he says, 311 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: I wonder who that was. And so we just started, 312 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, having exchange about turkey hunting. And I wasn't 313 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: asking him where to hunt. Uh, you know, I told 314 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: him I was just an avid turkey hunter and I'd 315 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: like to hunt some of the areas. I understood he 316 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: was one of the best in the area. You know, 317 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: I would far didn't want to get in any areas 318 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: that he hunted, but could he just give me some 319 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: general advice on hunting turkeys in Arkansas? And he ate 320 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: that up. I told him some man I would loved. 321 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: I had some good friends I probably never get to 322 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: hunt with again. And I know you probably playing folks 323 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: to hunt with, but if you ever get time, I'd 324 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: like to hunt with you. And we exchanged phone numbers. 325 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: And you are a lot younger than him, well I 326 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: was probably about ten years younger. Okay, you know we 327 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: immediately had a connection there and everything and everything. That's 328 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: how I got started the story that Andy and Russ 329 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: both tell are incredibly similar, which is pretty wild considering 330 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: the thirty year gap in Andy's story being second hand. 331 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: As Brent Reeves always says, if you want to get 332 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: two different stories, asked two eyewitnesses to the same thing. 333 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: What happened. I'm amazed at how easily the details of 334 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,239 Speaker 1: stories can get messed up, But not so here and 335 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: hey stick around until the second half of this podcast 336 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: when Dr Daniel Ruth tells us why we love Outlaws. 337 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: Russ continues, and so exchange phone numbers, and then what happened? 338 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: Change phone numbers. I didn't want to be too pushy. 339 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: I waited a week or two. Season was getting ready. 340 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: It was about probably a week or two away, and 341 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: I called him up, was look, I'm going to come 342 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: out scouting and and do some listening. Do you want 343 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: to go in? And he said, man, I ain't got 344 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: They said that first time. He told me he didn't 345 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: have time. And then he called me back and he 346 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: said yes. He said, if you can do it, it 347 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: was either like a Tuesday or Wednesday. One of the 348 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: isn't the middle week, I can do it the other day. 349 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: So he actually called me back and re schedule of 350 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: the day. So I went over there before daylight, picked 351 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: him up and we went out and he said, I'll 352 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: tell you what he said if he told me we're 353 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: to let him out. He said, I'm gonna walk this 354 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: ridge out. Show me on the map where you come out. 355 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: He said, I'll walk this ridge out, and he told 356 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: me where to go. Listen, and he said, then you 357 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: can pick me up. And that's when I knew that 358 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: he was beginning to trust me. He said, no, look, 359 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: when you pick me up, I don't want anybody to 360 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: see me on the road. And when you pick me up, 361 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: we drove the section the road I was picked him up. 362 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: He said, when you pick me up, there'll be a 363 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: limb laying in the edge of the road, and you 364 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: stop right there with that limb. Said, I'll jump out. 365 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: I'll jump in the truck from there. He said, we 366 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: don't need to let anybody see where we're getting in 367 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: and out. I said, I understand that. So I didn't 368 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: ask any questions. But that was just a scouting trip. 369 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: That was That was our first trip. He had heard 370 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: a couple of birds. I didn't hear anything. And I 371 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: told him, you went where you were supposed to go. 372 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: I went when he came back, gave him a report. Yep, 373 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: come back, gave him report. I didn't hear anything, pretty country, 374 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: what about you? And he was excited he had heard 375 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: a couple of birds, and I said, well, I said, 376 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: do you think anybody be hunting them opening day? He said, 377 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: they may be hunting them opening day, but they may 378 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: be dead before opening day. I said, okay, I said, 379 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: I can understand that. And I just said, if you 380 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: need help, let me know. If you need any help, 381 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: let me know. It's hard to imagine the dynamics of 382 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: what's going on here. Russ is trying to dupe a 383 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: man that's extremely suspicious of the law and known for 384 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: not getting caught. He's got to come across as genuine 385 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: as he invites himself on an illegal preseason turkey hunt, 386 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: which deep down he disdains the activity. It's an interesting 387 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: mental space. You see. Russ is from a real deal 388 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: turkey hunting family from Tennessee. Let's step outside of this story, 389 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: outside of this truck for just a second. I have 390 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: a personal question for Russ about his motivation for doing 391 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: what he's doing. I want to understand what he's feeling 392 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: at that moment because it's not what he's letting on. 393 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: What would you say your primary motivation inside of this, 394 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: because it's it's clear to me that you're you're a 395 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: hunter yourself. You're deeply connected to where you grew up hunting. 396 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,239 Speaker 1: Is it a love for wildlife? Is it uh a 397 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: love for justice? What would you say would be a 398 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: primary motivator for you inside of this? I guess you 399 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: would have to say it's all wrapped up. And what 400 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: I mean by that was I was very fortunate to 401 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: have a mentor, my dad, who was very long abiding, 402 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: very very structured in any and everything that he did. 403 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: From growing up very little, we would hear about people 404 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: that did other things, and I was taught, hey, respect this, 405 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: and I was taught that it's it's the hunt, it's 406 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: not the kill, and and I just always I've always 407 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: lived that in my opinion, when when the kill becomes 408 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: a more important thing, you know you're you're losing as 409 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: a hunter, because there's a lot more things out there 410 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: than to kill, and and to go in and seize. 411 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: The total disregard for for for that, to me, it 412 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: was despicable. I mean it truly was very interesting. Now 413 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: let's get back in the truck. Russ has just invited 414 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: himself on a preseason turkey hunt, and things escalate quickly. 415 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: For you, as an undercovered guy, this must have been 416 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: like this is music two your ears. Oh yeah. But 417 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 1: but you know, there was a there was a lot 418 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: of talk. You know, we spent five minutes here talking 419 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: about it. But you know we had talked on the phone, 420 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: we talked in his yard. We talked the first time, 421 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: so you know, then the second time he took a gun, 422 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: and the best, yes, and the best I can remember. 423 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to think it was an old single barrel, 424 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: but I really don't remember the gun. I tried not 425 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: to pay a lot of attention to it. I didn't 426 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: want to draw attention to it of me looking at it, 427 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: staring at it, because it was four daylight. But I 428 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: dropped him off and I picked him up. Did he 429 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: say much about it? He just got in a truck 430 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: and he had a gun, right, said, I hope this 431 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: is okay with you. We're not gonna get in trouble. 432 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: You won't get me in trouble. I look, I ain't 433 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: gonna get you in trouble. You know, I'm just out 434 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: here from Tennessee. You know. So he was all good 435 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: with it, and I picked him up within a hundred 436 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: yards where I picked him up the first time, and 437 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: I knew we hunted that same ridge. He didn't kill 438 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: a bird we talked about He said they wouldn't work 439 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: and uh, and took him home and that was that 440 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: was that. Louis Dell left with the shotgun, but when 441 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: he returned he didn't have it. He told Russ he 442 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: had left it up on the point of the rich. 443 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: This confirmed the brother's strategy of hiding shotguns in the woods. 444 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: And if you remember Stoney Edwards told us that's how 445 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: they evaded the law. Well, this time the law was there. 446 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: I honestly wished I had asked Russ if he ever 447 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: felt any internal confliction working under cover, but perhaps remorse 448 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 1: and plane someone in a good guy hustle. Working undercover 449 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: is basically living a lie for a period of time 450 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: for the greater good of the resource and justice. I 451 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: know it's a dumb question, but in that truck, Russ 452 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: fabricated a story to gain the authentic repport from this man. 453 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it was wrong, it's just a genuine question. 454 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure he would have said absolutely not. And 455 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: there are ethics involved in undercover work, like you can't 456 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: entice someone to break the law when they maybe wouldn't 457 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: have if you weren't there. It's called entrapment. Like modern 458 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: game wardens can't put a boot and Crockett sized deer 459 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: rack on a dummy deer on the side of the 460 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: road in that situation, your own dear sweet mama might 461 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: even take a crack at that thing. Russ is now 462 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: going to tell us how this thing finalized and fell apart, 463 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: and it all went back to the community support that 464 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: Louis Dell had. Then this is when things got interested. 465 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: One other time, we basically did the same thing in 466 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: another area. Now you'll you'll hear people say that he 467 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: knew who I was this second time. Makes me know 468 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: that I know he didn't know who I was because 469 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: he took a gun the second time. Yeah, you know, 470 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: the first time, most people are under the misconception that 471 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: if he was a law enforcement offer, he had already 472 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: busted me. So I hear I am the second time, 473 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: So to me, that that kind of solidified that, you know, 474 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: everything was good. Now the same thing didn't kill a turkey. 475 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: I actually went back into the same areas that he 476 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: hunted on by myself to look for corn. Never did 477 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: find any corn. And and now's when the uh the 478 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: law enforcement structure of the Forest Service that bent me. 479 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: There was a person in the community that was close 480 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: to louis Dale that got wind of my actions out there. 481 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: The word got back from from the community that this 482 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: person within the Forest Service had been talking to louis Dale, 483 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: and louis Dale himself told me, he said, you know, 484 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,479 Speaker 1: I was told I better watch out for you. And 485 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,719 Speaker 1: I said, well, man, I don't know why. You know, 486 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: I don't know why. When he approached me about it, 487 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: it was it was kind of like I've been old, 488 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: look out, look out for you. You You just you're just 489 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: something something just ain't ride with you. I don't remember 490 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: exact words, I've been told to watch out for you. 491 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: And he just kind of slapped me on the shoulder, like, 492 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: I ain't worried about it, You're okay, you know. So 493 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: I felt pretty confident that the cover was still there, 494 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: But do you want to continue and take the chance, 495 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: you know? And no, we weren't scared of him. I 496 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: wasn't scared for my life. He wasn't that type of people. 497 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: The family was not that type of people. In my opinion. 498 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: The danger would be that you're in a truck and 499 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: he gets mad at you, your cover gets blown and 500 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: he fights your pulls again physical or something. Right, We 501 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: had at least four or five different charges we could 502 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: tag on him, and there were very few people at 503 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: that time that knew about the operation. And I still 504 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: have not pinpointed exactly who it was, but I've got 505 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: my suspicions and we tracked it down, and that's pretty 506 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: much what the person told him says, you know, just 507 00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 1: be careful with that guy, because that's this particular person 508 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: was ingrained in the community. And uh, there's still this 509 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: mystique about protecting the outlaws in that community. You know. 510 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: Incredible Russ got rated out from the inside. There was 511 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: a mystique about protecting the outlaws in that community. We're 512 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: about to talk with Dr Daniel Rupe about why someone 513 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: would do that. It's layered like an onion and fascinating. 514 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: I thought it was very interesting that Russ never felt 515 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: endangered considering the rough and tough past that we learned 516 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: about these guys. On Part two, here's Russ on what 517 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: they could have prosecuted these guys on but what they 518 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: chose to do. My supervisor and I sat down and 519 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: we did a review of of of the evidence that 520 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: we had. How long would this whole thing have taken? 521 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: A month? Probably a month. So you've taken the truck over, 522 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: You've done your seeded the idea I got from Tennesse 523 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: gone to the gas station. This is this is probably 524 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: five or six trips forever in that country exactly. And 525 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: I wrote a report up on it, and my boss says, 526 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, we can, we can, we can take this forward, 527 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: he said, but is it worth it? You know, you know, 528 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: there's no commercialization, nothing was killed. Is it worth surfacing 529 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: you know who you are and what we did on 530 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: such a minor and fraction, you know? So that was 531 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: that is the very and only reason that we did 532 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: not charge him federally. It just wouldn't have gone very far. 533 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: Oh we would have. We would have prosecuted him, but 534 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: for that level of violation, did you want to surface 535 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: your identity as an undercover officer? And so you just 536 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: kind of drifted out of this world. That's it. This 537 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: young mouth calling turkey hunter from Tennessee just drifted out 538 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: of Louis Dell's world. Apparently the tip and probably other 539 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: stuff that happened gave Louis Delle confidence to know that 540 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: the guy was under cover. We know that from Andy's story. 541 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: Here's Russ with a wild summary of small communities in 542 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: the Southern United States. I also want to state that 543 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: Russ intentionally had not listened to either part one or 544 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: Part two of the series before this interview. His conclusions 545 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: are striking every small community, whether it's Western Carolina, Southeast Tennessee, 546 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: North Georgia, Ozarks, Washtalls, you can take small county, USA 547 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: where there is a prevalent big game that's being hunted, 548 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: and you will find that family, whether it's bear, whether 549 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: it's big deer, whether it's turkey, you'll find that family 550 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: that everybody loves that nobody wants to tell on m 551 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: So you think this is a common scenario, Is it truly? Is? 552 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: Why do people love outlaws? I don't know. Like I 553 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: said to me, I think it's funny because just what 554 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: type of person does it take to a lou game 555 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: board and it's got two thou acres to patrol just 556 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: beyond me, and you'll hear stories of they kill a 557 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: lot of them. They never let anything waste, and they 558 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: would they would feel other people. This is not the 559 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: depression time. Yeah, I don't buy that, you know, just 560 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: sitting times where you have to hunt for your food. 561 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: And and here's the thing, I could give you family 562 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: names right now of the of the Louis del Edwards 563 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: in about six different states. Boom boom boom. What are 564 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: the characteristics of those people? Normally hard working, god fearing. 565 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: You'll see them in church, active in their community, very 566 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: family oriented, just down to earth good people. What what 567 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: is amazing? You haven't listened to the podcast? No, and 568 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: you just wrote the script for Hulu down Charlie were 569 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: But that's uh minus maybe a few of those components. 570 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: But for the most part, I want to get along 571 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: with everybody. Well, you will do anything with anything for anybody. 572 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: Very compassionate, I mean that's very common. They're compelling people 573 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: a lot of times. And the thing about it is 574 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: if if if you're if you're an on hunter or 575 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: even a part time hunter, not as passionate as Edwards, 576 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: and you look at somebody in your community with those characteristics, 577 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: you don't want to get them in trouble. You know, 578 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: if you're just looking at those characteristics without having the 579 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: background and the and the of a of a resource 580 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: management perspective. You don't see it to be a big 581 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: deal if you're just a general Joe citizen, because those 582 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: are good characteristics for people to have in today's world, 583 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 1: especially in today's world, so it would be very easy 584 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: to be, you know, compassionate towards them. I'll never forget 585 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: interviewing Russ Arthur after hearing his description from Louis del 586 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: I'll be at second hand through Andy. This is a 587 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: good time for us to all get caught up on 588 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: what's been going on, if for some reason, you're just 589 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: getting here. Our first two episodes were bio sketches of 590 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: the Edwards brothers, who lived in the community that I 591 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: grew up in in the western Washingta Mountains of Arkansas. Louis, 592 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: Dell and Charlie were extremely colorful characters, beloved in the 593 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: community by most, and I've been exploring why I like them. 594 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: They were known as notorious turkey outlaws. When I heard 595 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: the sting operation was ratted out by someone on the inside, 596 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: I felt a tinge of guilt because I've already declared 597 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: my endearment to these guys. But I don't think that 598 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: endearment would have made me compromise my value system. I've 599 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: told this story from an honest perspective. I've been in 600 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: search of how I could be so full of irony, paradoxes, 601 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: and maybe straight up hypocrisy. You may recognize this clip. 602 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: It's from the opening scene of the acclaimed nineteen seventy 603 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: movie The Godfather. We'll see a pattern here that is 604 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: very relevant. I I went to the police like a 605 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: good American. These are the boys that were brought to trial. 606 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: The judge sentenced them in to three years in prison 607 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: and suspend the sentence. Suspended the sentence. They went three 608 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: that very day, high student the court from me like 609 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: a fool, and those two pasted the smart at me. 610 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: Then I said to my wife, for justice, we must 611 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: go to Don Corlone. Well didn't you go to the place. 612 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: Why didn't you come to me first? What do you 613 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: want me? Tell me anything? But do what I'm beg 614 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: you to do. For justice, I must go to Dawn 615 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: cor Leone. In this film, the common man and immigrant 616 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: to the United States went through the courts for justice, 617 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 1: the highest power in the land. But he couldn't find justice, 618 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: He couldn't trust the powers on top. He had to 619 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: turn to the mafia, to the outlaws who lived outside 620 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: the systems of power. Here's Dr Daniel Rupe, an anthropologists 621 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: and longtime hero of the Bear Grease podcast, to help 622 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: me sort all this out. Dr Daniel route Man, you 623 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: know that inside of this series, I have been in 624 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: an exploration of something inside of me that I know 625 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: is inside of a lot of people. That is this 626 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: magnetic draw in some situations to be drawn towards people 627 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: who pushed the envelope, break the law. I mean, you 628 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: can't turn on television or Netflix without seeing these like 629 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: rebels that we love. I don't know if that's an 630 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: American thing fully or if that's a human kind thing. 631 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: But why do we love outlaws? They don't write movies 632 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: about people who follow the rules. You know, we're not 633 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: captivated by stories of folks who do. There's only one 634 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: guy who ever did that. They made a movie, Mr Rogers. 635 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 1: So why do we love the bad guys? Because in 636 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 1: the West, and specifically in the modern or the postmodern West, 637 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: deep down, the bad guys are actually the people who 638 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: are on top in power, making the rules. We we 639 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: just we don't trust them, we're not sure we like them. 640 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: We really hope to get somebody in there that's kind 641 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: of like us if we could, but we don't have 642 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: a lot of hope and ever changing who's on top. 643 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: So the bad guys kind of the common man, the 644 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: the rebel doing as good as he can. You know, 645 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: it's kind of like the Dukes of Hazzard, which you 646 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: brought it up in one of the that's really appealing 647 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: to us because they're not really the bad guys. The 648 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: real bad guys are the folks who are on top 649 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: and this kind of foss hog boss dog, that guy, 650 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: the ones that are in control of the resources, who 651 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: are making the rules, who are kind of laying the 652 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: playing field out. We're forced to play their game, and 653 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: the folks who refused to play that game are inherently 654 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 1: are heroes. People who refuse to play the game are 655 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: lived by the laws instituted by those on top, are 656 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: often are heroes. This is getting interesting, and it's gonna 657 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: get more interesting when you hear the foundations of where 658 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: this comes from in Western society, and this whole line 659 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: of thinking is actually in the scope of human history, 660 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: is actually relatively recent and has a little bit of 661 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: real Yeah, so it has a little bit of surprising source. 662 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: Even though today the kind of the political and go 663 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: ron mental structures that followed Karl Marxist thinking have in 664 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: Mass been basically objectively proved as irrevocably a failure communism. 665 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: The vast majority of us view the people on top, 666 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: the people in power, the people who have the resources 667 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: and set the rules. We view them through a Marxist 668 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: lens that the way forward, the way for change, is 669 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: for a revolt and for an overthrow. And Marx when 670 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: he was writing in uh middle of like eighteen hundreds, 671 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: almost immediately you saw in several European nation revolutions, all 672 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: of which failed. And so part part of the thinking 673 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: back then was if you know, if the common man 674 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: could just gain power in mass and redistribute everything communism, 675 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: then would all be great. And who who knew? That 676 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: didn't go very well all But nonetheless that seat that 677 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: same seed of if the common man could have power, 678 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: if the common man could get into that place of power, 679 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: he would know what to do, he would know and 680 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: and things would be made right. And the really the 681 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: way forward is the common man gaining power. So the 682 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: way forward or progress or hope or you know, you 683 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: might say salvation for any given individual is to revolt 684 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,919 Speaker 1: against whatever powers that be. If the common man could 685 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: gain power. This is fundamental to the understanding we're building 686 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: about why we love outlaws, because they are the common 687 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: man that is fed up with the systems of power, 688 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: just like the guy that went to Don Corleone, the Godfather. 689 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: So you you drove over here, and you didn't You 690 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: probably don't remember deciding to put on your blinker. You 691 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: probably don't remember deciding to go a little bit over 692 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: the speed limit, but not too much. But in every 693 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,240 Speaker 1: every single day you're engaged with law, and you're thankful 694 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: that it's there. But yet every single day, you, like 695 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,359 Speaker 1: all the rest of us, feel injustice and oppression and 696 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: disproportionately distributed. Marx would say economic capital. You feel social 697 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: and cultural capital and the pull on it and at 698 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: tension for it and the competition for it. And so 699 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,800 Speaker 1: having a power up top that is evil and bad 700 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: makes sense. And and if we're honest with ourselves, of course, 701 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: and we look at history, a lot of times the 702 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: power up top is evil get bad. But then sometimes 703 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: when you've got this bad game warden. He's not even 704 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: a bad guy, and if you probably sit down to 705 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: lunch with it, you probably actually really like him. So 706 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: then it's not him personally, but it's the system that 707 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,240 Speaker 1: he works for. So that's how these gentlemen like Louis 708 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: Dell and Charlie they can relate with this one game 709 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: ward who genuinely, clearly you can tell he cared for them, 710 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 1: and he did, but he kind of represents the system 711 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: of law and he's doing his job, and they're representing 712 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: another thing that society needs, which is individuals who make 713 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,320 Speaker 1: things a lot more simple and a lot more black 714 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: and white. My life is super complicated. I've got rules 715 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: to follow, I've got multiple bosses, I've got different social 716 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,760 Speaker 1: pressures and relational kind of strains, and all of a sudden, 717 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: when I can look somewhat from Afar, I'm not too 718 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: closely associated with this particular outlaw, you know what I mean. 719 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,280 Speaker 1: So I'm looking somewhat from Afar, and I see here's 720 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: a person who sees it like it should be seen, 721 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: and they stand up against the man, and they they 722 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: they they may not follow every law, but there's a 723 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: law there. Their own kind of law, you know, and 724 00:42:54,480 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: they're gonna follow We were just of course, and we 725 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: can't because we live in the real world a lot 726 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: more complicated. Just like the further you went on the 727 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: biographical sketches of these gentlemen, they lived in a real world, 728 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: and we would kind of like to think of them 729 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 1: as the wonderful things that they did to the people 730 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 1: around them and how they kind of gave it to 731 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,959 Speaker 1: the law and stuck it to the man. But they're 732 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: also real people with messy lives, just like you would 733 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: like to know. I thought it was kind of funny 734 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: when you're like, wait a minute, he wore tennis shoes. 735 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,280 Speaker 1: So we like to we like to project on individuals 736 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: what we really wish we were, and every single one 737 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,720 Speaker 1: of us because we're enlightenment thinkers and for us postmodern 738 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: enlightened quote unquote thinkers, we want to give it to 739 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: the man. And Karl Mark's articulate, that's an American thing 740 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: or the Western thing. It's a Western thing. Is it 741 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: is a Western modern So if we if we if 742 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: we did this story in a child Chinese version, what 743 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: would they think, Well, the Chinese version would want a 744 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: very a very powerful ruler on top that was far away. 745 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 1: So there's a chung yu or a Chinese saying that 746 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: translated to English means the emperor is high above and 747 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,959 Speaker 1: far away. So the emperor he's there, he's high above, 748 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: he's way above us. But thankfully he's far away. So 749 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:29,959 Speaker 1: him being there provides stability, it provides security. But he's 750 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: far away, so we don't really have to interact with 751 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: him a lot, but we want him there m So 752 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,760 Speaker 1: this is why they wouldn't like an outlaw. They wouldn't 753 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: like an outlaw, and the idea of a revolution would 754 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 1: be entirely unsettling. Whereas most of our stories and songs 755 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,720 Speaker 1: when you you were talking about a little bit earlier 756 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: in American history, think about like the fifties and sixties 757 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: and seventies. I mean, everything is a revolution. And even 758 00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: now today we have society puts forth these causes or 759 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: these movements that are revolutionary in nature. If you don't, 760 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,400 Speaker 1: everything is a revolution. Everything is. And if you don't 761 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: align yourself with one of them, who are you? Why? 762 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: How could you not do that? How could you not 763 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,240 Speaker 1: join that movement? How could you not? Because deep down 764 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: people see revolution as the way forward. There's a power 765 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: in place that's corrupt and it needs to be brought down. 766 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: There is a power in place that needs to be 767 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: brought down. You may be asking yourself if you fit 768 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: this description, and it's certainly a generalization that generally applies 769 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: to Western culture. It would be stronger in some but 770 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: it pops up in some areas and not in others. 771 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: You may not have a problem with slow traffic lights, 772 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: but despise referees in basketball games, and if we're being 773 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: honest and hunting culture, game wardens are typically seen as 774 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 1: the bad guy or the adversary, even though we all 775 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: know this isn't true. They're the good guys. I am 776 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: interested in the things that drive us and make us 777 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,799 Speaker 1: see life that we're completely unaware of. And that's why 778 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,919 Speaker 1: when I am intrigued and just love and and kind 779 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: of make heroes Louis Dell and Charlie Edwards. At the time, 780 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 1: I was a kid, Yet I also knew that I 781 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: was not permitted to be like them in in in 782 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And that's bizarre. So now that 783 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 1: I'm adult, it's like, wait, how does this work? Hey Dad, 784 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: Hey Gary, tell me how this works again? So Juju 785 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: would never have been okay with you behaving like them, 786 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: but you and Juju both look and recognize that the 787 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,800 Speaker 1: system has fallen. The system is is broken, the system 788 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: is is in justin to some degree corrupt and needs 789 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: to be overthrown. And then you look across the other 790 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: side of your hometown and you see these two guys who, 791 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: in their way are living outside the system, outside the system, 792 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: and we're being control that we're being control by. And 793 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 1: you and I either don't have the guts or the 794 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,359 Speaker 1: means or life is actually more complicated than that. And 795 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: I look at these people, and because I want someone 796 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,960 Speaker 1: who's outside the system, I see that, and in reality 797 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: they're probably still in the system. But my mind makes 798 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: an outlaw because I've lost faith in the law to 799 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: begin with, And so all of a sudden, these guys 800 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: are my heroes, even if I would never act like them, 801 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: or even yeah, if even if we would, we would 802 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: reject what they did. I mean, like we were never 803 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: okay with somebody killing a bunch of turkeys in our 804 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,839 Speaker 1: home county, or or just even the idea of it. 805 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 1: Seemed like every time there was the least little altercation 806 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: or or kind of argument with somebody everybody armed themselves 807 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: immediately with a gun. I was like, oh my gosh, 808 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: you don't hope you know, no kidding, you know, we 809 00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,160 Speaker 1: would never do that, you know, just sheer fire. We 810 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,799 Speaker 1: carry concealed. We we have permits now for that. But 811 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: that kind of mindset. Listen to this, So so Juju 812 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: bringing up Juju on the no for real. The other 813 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,759 Speaker 1: day She's she texted me and said, hey, we just 814 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,920 Speaker 1: found out that you're like great great uncle something on 815 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: the Newcomb side went to went to prison for moonshine. 816 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: It was like a new discovery in the Newcombe family. 817 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 1: You know, they kind of started looking and now her 818 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,439 Speaker 1: dad went to juvenile jail when he was young for 819 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,360 Speaker 1: being a part of a moonshine operation when he was 820 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 1: like sixteen or seventeen. But on the Newcomb side, and 821 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,080 Speaker 1: in anyway, she literally wrote back, why are we proud 822 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: of this? I mean, we don't. We're not into hard liquor. 823 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,319 Speaker 1: I mean like, I'm never gonna make moonshine. I'm never 824 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,919 Speaker 1: gonna live a lifestyle of moonshine drinking. But yet, for 825 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: some reason, oddly, I like I want to tell people 826 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: that my great great uncle Thomas Nucombe went to prison 827 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: for moonshine. That's but that's stupid, that's bizarre. Hey, Dr 828 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,880 Speaker 1: d why do you have to bring up my sweet 829 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: mother Juju in the Outlaw episode? How about we talk 830 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:18,319 Speaker 1: about your mom? Sorry, Juju. The thing that makes us 831 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 1: love outlaws is fundamentally a suspicion of power and people 832 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,840 Speaker 1: making the rules. Outlaws live outside the boundaries of the 833 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 1: law and revolt against the system. Deep in our cultural 834 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: DNA is something that screams that this is good. It's 835 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: stronger in some than in others. Dr Dan is about 836 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: to talk about suspicion of power in politics, and it's 837 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,839 Speaker 1: relevant because that mechanism is the exact same one that 838 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:52,160 Speaker 1: makes us love and outlaw. Basically every political party in 839 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: the United States that has gained power is basically saying 840 00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: the folks before did it awful, and we're gonna do 841 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,720 Speaker 1: it better. We're gonna drain the swamp, or we're gonna 842 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,440 Speaker 1: we're gonna make it better, or we're gonna undo what 843 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,360 Speaker 1: they did. This is the song, every single It's the 844 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: song and dance of every political candidate forever. And now 845 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: our suspicions are growing even worse, and we're subsequent generations 846 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 1: are gonna most likely be even more suspicious of politics. 847 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,560 Speaker 1: It's a wild that we just keep biting the same hook. 848 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,960 Speaker 1: And that's the irony of the quote unquote enlightenment and 849 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,440 Speaker 1: progress is in a way we make these leaps and 850 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 1: bounds forward, but in another way, as humanity, it seems 851 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: like we've just developed more intricate ways to not trust 852 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: one another, and then we're left with heroes that live 853 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 1: in kind of a gray area. If you look at 854 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 1: our stories, like the kind of the the stories and 855 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,320 Speaker 1: the songs that we're seeing as a culture, our heroes 856 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: are broken, whether whether we whether we like it or not, 857 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:03,080 Speaker 1: because we can identify with that. The irony of modernity 858 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: and progress is that we may have cars, nice houses, 859 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,480 Speaker 1: and fancy clothes, but continue to be utterly lost in 860 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,760 Speaker 1: finding ways to unite for the common good. Now that's 861 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 1: an interesting thought. I had another question for Dr Dan. 862 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,400 Speaker 1: I should have asked him about his mama, but I didn't. 863 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: So is there is there anything redemptive and valuable inside 864 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,839 Speaker 1: of revering an outlaw? Definitely? So you've at least got 865 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,960 Speaker 1: two things that are very valuable inside revering an outlaw. 866 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,680 Speaker 1: One is the systems that we are all a part 867 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,400 Speaker 1: of are imperfect, and so we don't want to accept 868 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,839 Speaker 1: those or live within those without stepping outside of them 869 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 1: and looking at them. So revering an outlaw, he's the 870 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,080 Speaker 1: guy that's on the outside, that's looking back, that's that 871 00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,880 Speaker 1: has the goal to really call out the system. Yes, 872 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,680 Speaker 1: so in a sense you're gaining objectivity. You know you're 873 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,320 Speaker 1: you're gaining it, even though it's a far pendulum swing. 874 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 1: Sure like I'm not gonna go kill a bunch of 875 00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,239 Speaker 1: turkeys someone that calls us. There's a way to live 876 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,799 Speaker 1: that's outside the system helps people that are within what 877 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: society is made of systems. So the problem isn't that 878 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: we have systems. The problem is that we have systems 879 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,279 Speaker 1: that we're in that we're not aware of. Is this 880 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,280 Speaker 1: a healthy thing inside of a democracy where the idea 881 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,200 Speaker 1: is that the people rule, the people make law, and 882 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,040 Speaker 1: so you would have these periphery of people and there 883 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,680 Speaker 1: will be some people outside of that circle that would 884 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,799 Speaker 1: be constantly challenging the system. So in a sense, a 885 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:46,359 Speaker 1: democracy would be a conglomeration of outlaws. So they they 886 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,400 Speaker 1: these this conglomeration, this mob of people get together and 887 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:55,399 Speaker 1: together they decide on a set of rules, usually the 888 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 1: least limiting rules possible, to maintain a certain amount of 889 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,760 Speaker 1: social order on which at a day to day basis 890 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,200 Speaker 1: they can go about and do whatever they want. So 891 00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,480 Speaker 1: they want the least amount of interference from the state 892 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,799 Speaker 1: as possible, but they want enough interference that is not 893 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,840 Speaker 1: total chaos. If you just pop out of the box 894 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,719 Speaker 1: and your whole you're gonna obey the rules like without question. 895 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,319 Speaker 1: And this is a gray area, man, big time gray area, 896 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 1: because we're supposed to obey the rules. The rules are 897 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,439 Speaker 1: what makes it safe. I believe that that's the way 898 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,360 Speaker 1: I live. But there comes a point when the rules 899 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 1: and many times throughout history where where the rules were 900 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,839 Speaker 1: bad and it took breaking laws to get the thing 901 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: back on track. And that's this said, there are two 902 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,600 Speaker 1: things that are valuable. That's the second thing. The system, 903 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: most often, in some way, shape or form, needs to 904 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:54,799 Speaker 1: be pushed. I want to put this discussion into context. 905 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,520 Speaker 1: We're now looking out far beyond the boundaries of wildlife violators. 906 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 1: Back to my original big question of why we revere outlaws. 907 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,840 Speaker 1: We're not saying that people need to violate game laws 908 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,799 Speaker 1: so that agencies will make game laws more just nuke. 909 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,759 Speaker 1: We're now talking about outlaws as an archetype and their 910 00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,319 Speaker 1: general function inside of the democracy. Now that we got 911 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: that cleared up, let's take the discussion back to the 912 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:30,440 Speaker 1: Edwards brothers for one final analysis. I think this sums 913 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,960 Speaker 1: it up for me in a sense. It's almost as 914 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:41,800 Speaker 1: if these two men full on went after whatever they 915 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,080 Speaker 1: were doing, and they thought those mountains were their home 916 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,279 Speaker 1: and what was in those mountains belonged to them. And 917 00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,480 Speaker 1: who's this foreigner coming from outside or this person that 918 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:57,040 Speaker 1: I might know personally in respect but enacting foreign laws, 919 00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,640 Speaker 1: like from a different spot, to come in and tell 920 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,960 Speaker 1: me what I can do with these turkeys or what 921 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,680 Speaker 1: I can do at this particular time of year. I'm 922 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,279 Speaker 1: not gonna stand for that, And so I'm gonna do 923 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,439 Speaker 1: what I think is right. And what I also think 924 00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 1: is right is loving my family and loving my neighbors. 925 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,239 Speaker 1: And by the way, what I also think is right 926 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,480 Speaker 1: when that person prank calls me, I'm not gonna stand 927 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,080 Speaker 1: for that, and I'm gonna go full on, you know. 928 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,000 Speaker 1: I think another thing that's very appealing about these outlaws 929 00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,520 Speaker 1: like this and and these two gentlemen maybe in particular, 930 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:34,000 Speaker 1: is just there. They're kind of they're full on nature. 931 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,040 Speaker 1: Every single thing that they did, they seem to go 932 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,359 Speaker 1: all the way at man that I keep going back, 933 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,000 Speaker 1: and they threw themselves into it, and I think one 934 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,840 Speaker 1: of the big that's one of the things that probably 935 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,640 Speaker 1: makes them the most human. When we look at them, 936 00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,040 Speaker 1: we see them outside the system. They're not just outside 937 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,879 Speaker 1: the game and fish laws. They're outside normality and that 938 00:55:54,960 --> 00:56:00,000 Speaker 1: most people we know don't full tilt throw themselves into everything. 939 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,319 Speaker 1: Why we're not doing that? And I think one of 940 00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,640 Speaker 1: the realities of the industrial revolution is that we become 941 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,280 Speaker 1: a cog in the wheel and we kind of accept 942 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: our fate and we just go about life and we 943 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,640 Speaker 1: do are and we pay our mortgage and we and 944 00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,799 Speaker 1: deep down we know that life is supposed to be 945 00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,440 Speaker 1: more than that. And so one of the things that 946 00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:24,040 Speaker 1: we see when we look at an outlaw is not 947 00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,680 Speaker 1: just somebody who's outside the system or above the law, 948 00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,080 Speaker 1: are going against corrupt power. We see a person that 949 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:34,080 Speaker 1: gives everything they got, that's going for it, and that 950 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:36,360 Speaker 1: we all want to be that. We all want to 951 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,919 Speaker 1: be that because as an artifact, that's what we were 952 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,799 Speaker 1: made to be. We were made for more than just 953 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: a cog in the wheel. That the way I described 954 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,200 Speaker 1: it was that their sense of identity was very strong. 955 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,799 Speaker 1: I'm very interested in identity, very interested in people that 956 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:56,000 Speaker 1: live out the functionality of their identity and accurate ways, 957 00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,120 Speaker 1: not to say that their version of who they were 958 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: was curate. I look at those guys and I admire 959 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:08,600 Speaker 1: their certainty, and I admire their how they functionalize their identity. 960 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,480 Speaker 1: And I think that the genuine nature in which they 961 00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,759 Speaker 1: functionalized their identity was powerful and and I took some 962 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,640 Speaker 1: heat for it, but it's like a template for like 963 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,240 Speaker 1: I want to be. I want to be that certain Well, 964 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:25,560 Speaker 1: it's it's revolutionary to not let society or the world 965 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,440 Speaker 1: define you. Now, everybody in our day and age is, 966 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 1: you know, define yourself and become your authentic self. The 967 00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: problem with the vast majority of people is if you 968 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,080 Speaker 1: lay that question before me and say, hey, you can 969 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,160 Speaker 1: go ahead and define yourself deep down a super disconcerting 970 00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:41,880 Speaker 1: because I have no idea who I'm supposed to be 971 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,000 Speaker 1: or who I am. But when you look at people 972 00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:49,200 Speaker 1: like Louisville and Charlie, they appear to now it may 973 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: have been imperfect, but they appear to have known who 974 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,000 Speaker 1: they were, and they would not allow the system to 975 00:57:56,080 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: define themselves and whatever aspect of who they were, whatever realm, 976 00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,480 Speaker 1: they would go full on after. That's why people love them, 977 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:12,600 Speaker 1: and that's why people know. Man, what a discussion. This 978 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,360 Speaker 1: one really summed it up for me. We've been on 979 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,000 Speaker 1: a wild ride as we got behind the veil with 980 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:22,080 Speaker 1: undercover agent Russ Arthur, who I am forever grateful to, 981 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 1: As we learned about the sting operation by the Forest Service, 982 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,439 Speaker 1: we learned how Louis Dell's strong community alliance has helped 983 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,240 Speaker 1: him evade the law, and we finally answered the question 984 00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,440 Speaker 1: I've been after this whole time. We love outlaws because 985 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 1: of an innate distrust of power that's deep inside the 986 00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:45,360 Speaker 1: Western worldview, and that spurs a desire for the common 987 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,840 Speaker 1: man to stick at two systems of power that we 988 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,600 Speaker 1: deem unjust. This outlaw archetype can play itself out in 989 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,959 Speaker 1: the big picture or the small picture, and in any 990 00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,760 Speaker 1: part of our life. As we come to a close, 991 00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 1: I'm perplexed and enamored by human nature. I love guys 992 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,520 Speaker 1: like Russ Arthur, who have dedicated their lives to enforcing 993 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,680 Speaker 1: just laws and protecting wildlife so that all of us 994 00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 1: have an opportunity to have great experiences in wild places, 995 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,120 Speaker 1: law and order, or what have made this country what 996 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,480 Speaker 1: it is. And these are admirable folks. And in the 997 00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,360 Speaker 1: exact same breath and artifact of my past makes me 998 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:34,800 Speaker 1: somewhat hat tip to the outlaw archetype. Not wildlife violators, 999 00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:39,479 Speaker 1: not poaching, those actions we outright reject. But the hat 1000 00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,760 Speaker 1: tip is because of the role the outlaw has played 1001 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,960 Speaker 1: in human history. Most of our heroes are in some 1002 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:51,040 Speaker 1: way outlaws that stood against a prevailing system of unjust power. 1003 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 1: Most of these people would have been considered criminals at 1004 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,320 Speaker 1: their time, but they're now heroes. Many stories of men 1005 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,360 Speaker 1: recorded in the Bible were textbook outlaws. Now this is 1006 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:07,600 Speaker 1: some metaphorical stuff, but metaphors are powerful medicine when used correctly. 1007 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:12,000 Speaker 1: But in my best image of myself, I'm an outlaw 1008 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,120 Speaker 1: against the negative trends of the age. In every generation, 1009 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,320 Speaker 1: there are things that push society and I think quite 1010 01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:24,040 Speaker 1: intentionally to be something that is ultimately detrimental to society, 1011 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:29,640 Speaker 1: whether it's patterns that degradate family structures, degrade our collective work, ethic, 1012 01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,880 Speaker 1: our integrity, or push us to distrust people different than us. 1013 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,520 Speaker 1: The trend of the age has told us that spirituality 1014 01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:42,160 Speaker 1: is primitive and outdated as an example, which I outright reject. 1015 01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm always interested in pulling something positive from the stories 1016 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,240 Speaker 1: we tell on this podcast, and I think these real 1017 01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:56,720 Speaker 1: stories of our past are important for our future. My 1018 01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,360 Speaker 1: oh my, I can't thank you enough for listening to 1019 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,920 Speaker 1: the Bear Groups podcast. I truly thank the Edwards family 1020 01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,360 Speaker 1: and their friends for so generously opening up the stories 1021 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,960 Speaker 1: of their family to us and trusting us. I truly 1022 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:16,760 Speaker 1: hope that this produces good stuff for all involved, because 1023 01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:22,000 Speaker 1: these stories are meaningful and valuable to me personally, as 1024 01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:25,280 Speaker 1: these men influence my life and continue to do so. 1025 01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,280 Speaker 1: We look forward to meeting with you again next week 1026 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,120 Speaker 1: on the Beargrease Render. Please leave us a review on 1027 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,400 Speaker 1: iTunes and share some of this stuff on social media 1028 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,920 Speaker 1: and share the Bargrease podcast with one of your hill 1029 01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:42,120 Speaker 1: billy or yuppy friends this week