Speaker 1: Hi, it's West Kasova. We're taking a break today for
Speaker 1: the holiday. Here's one of our favorite episodes that you
Speaker 1: might have missed. And for an update on what's happening
Speaker 1: with these farm protests, check out the link in the
Speaker 1: show notes. We'll be back on Monday with a new
Speaker 1: Big Take. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great weekend.
Speaker 1: It's the Big Take from Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. I'm
Speaker 1: West Kasova. Today, farmers are protesting rules that order them
Speaker 1: to slash emissions not from their tractors, from their cows.
Speaker 1: Our insatiable appetite for meat, eggs, cheese means there are
Speaker 1: billions of chickens, and pigs and cows the world over.
Speaker 1: Animal agriculture is a leading contributor to greenhouse gas emissions
Speaker 1: and pollutants like ammonia and nitrogen. In Europe, governments are
Speaker 1: starting to crack down. They're demanding farms dramatically cut the
Speaker 1: size of their herds to meet environmental goals that could
Speaker 1: force thousands of farmers out of business. One place where
Speaker 1: anger over this issue is spilled over is the Netherlands,
Speaker 1: where political tensions are so high it threatens to overturn
Speaker 1: the government so if you end up in a situation
Speaker 1: that force will be necessary. It's quite possible that there
Speaker 1: will be a big crisis within the Dutch government that
Speaker 1: Gouldifan toplets to describe what's happening. Bloomberg reporter Didrich Bazil
Speaker 1: joins me now from Amsterdam. Diedrich Bazil, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for being here his thanks for having me. So you've
Speaker 1: been covering this conflict between dairy farmers in the Netherlands
Speaker 1: and the government. Can you just give us sort of
Speaker 1: a lay of the land of exactly what's happening there,
Speaker 1: If it's okay, I would like to start with asking
Speaker 1: you a question. Actually, sure, the Netlands has about seventeen
Speaker 1: million people. But I was wondering, do you know how
Speaker 1: many chickens we have in this country? How many chickens?
Speaker 1: You know, you're right away, I have no idea how
Speaker 1: many chickens there are in the Netherlands. Now we have
Speaker 1: one hundred million chickens in the Netherlands, and on top
Speaker 1: of that we have eleven million picks and another four
Speaker 1: million cows, and that makes Netlands the country and with
Speaker 1: the highest density of farm animals in the whole of Europe,
Speaker 1: and yeah, that creates all kinds of problems, including the
Speaker 1: nitrogen crisis we're discussing today. One risk is the amount
Speaker 1: of nitrogen that is emitted. But another risk is what
Speaker 1: we've seen with Corona. When a lot of people and
Speaker 1: a lot of animals are together on the small piece
Speaker 1: of land, chances are that diseases are gonna jump from
Speaker 1: animals to humans. So we have this situation where nitrogen
Speaker 1: other pollutants are building up. The government is trying to
Speaker 1: meet climate pledges and looking to dairy farmers and other
Speaker 1: farmers to help with that by ordering them to reduce
Speaker 1: the emissions. Yeah. So what happened is this has been
Speaker 1: an issue for a couple of years in the Netherlands,
Speaker 1: but back in June, the government announced a target to
Speaker 1: reduce their nitrogen emitants and the target was to reduce
Speaker 1: it by fifty percent in twenty thirty. When they presented
Speaker 1: this target, they also presented a map of the Netherlands
Speaker 1: and that map included the nature areas in the country,
Speaker 1: and we have several and surrounding those nature areas. Often
Speaker 1: the nitrogen had to be diminished by up to ninety percent,
Speaker 1: and that basically means that all farms that operate there
Speaker 1: have to close down. So that map and that target
Speaker 1: of fifty percent cause a lot of commotion in the country.
Speaker 1: And since we have seen strikes from farmers for a
Speaker 1: couple of months now, and they have been blocking the streets,
Speaker 1: they have been going to the house of the minister
Speaker 1: to protest, they're starting fires on the highway. That kind
Speaker 1: of of well, you can see why farmers would be
Speaker 1: so alarmed by this, because they're essentially saying we're going
Speaker 1: to be putting a certain number of people out of
Speaker 1: business who may have been farming for generations. Did they
Speaker 1: prepare farmers at offer this or was this something that
Speaker 1: was announced out of the blue. There are two sides
Speaker 1: to this story, like always think, One side is that
Speaker 1: these farmers, for years, and especially also the big companies
Speaker 1: behind those farmers, they have been polluting Dutch in nature
Speaker 1: and making money out of it. And the other side
Speaker 1: of the story is that political parties that are still
Speaker 1: in power today in the Netherlands have told those farmers
Speaker 1: for years that if they scale up, if they become bigger,
Speaker 1: and if they investigate in innovation, everything will be okay
Speaker 1: and everything will be fine. And yeah, that's not the
Speaker 1: way it is. The problem is just way more structural.
Speaker 1: Politicians just haven't been brave enough to tell the honest
Speaker 1: story to the farmers, and now they don't have a
Speaker 1: choice anymore, and the farmers few betrayed. Can you describe
Speaker 1: some of the protests that happened over the summer, because
Speaker 1: some of them are quite large and pretty druma. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the thing is farmers they have tractors, so if
Speaker 1: you have a tractor, you can do a lot of things.
Speaker 1: They drove with the tractors to Parliament. They use him
Speaker 1: to block the highway, they use him to go to
Speaker 1: the house of the minister and straight away, when you
Speaker 1: have a tractor, you basically have a weapon. It's difficult
Speaker 1: for the police to do something about it when the
Speaker 1: road is blocked with tractors. And they have been doing
Speaker 1: this for the past months. Even caused the Minister of
Speaker 1: Agriculture to step down. And we have a new now
Speaker 1: new one since a couple of weeks, and we also
Speaker 1: have a Minister of Nitrogen, the first one ever in
Speaker 1: the history of the Netherlands, and I think the world,
Speaker 1: to be honest, this is fascinating. A minister of nitrogen.
Speaker 1: What does that person do? Yees? So the Netlands has
Speaker 1: I think it's the first country in the world to
Speaker 1: have a Minister of nitrogen. Her name is Chrissie on
Speaker 1: the Ball and yeah, she basically is the Minister of
Speaker 1: bad news because her only task is to make sure
Speaker 1: that the target of fifty percent production by twenty thirty
Speaker 1: that's going to happen. And that's a terrible, terrible mission,
Speaker 1: I guess, because there's only bad news you can tell
Speaker 1: farmers because they have to close down their farms, they
Speaker 1: have to stop the business they have been running for
Speaker 1: several generations. What is it that the farmers are demanding?
Speaker 1: They see the government's solution as being pretty severe. What
Speaker 1: is that they're coming back with in demanding or asking for?
Speaker 1: So the challenge of the government is to live up
Speaker 1: to their target and at the same time provide a
Speaker 1: future for farming in the Netherlands. And that is a
Speaker 1: big challenge because the only way to reach this target
Speaker 1: is for farmers to close down. Not all, of course,
Speaker 1: but a big portion will have to quit their business.
Speaker 1: And these farmers are requesting basically either come with a
Speaker 1: decent way to buy us out with a lot of money,
Speaker 1: or give us other ways to continue our business what
Speaker 1: we have been doing for generations, and give us a
Speaker 1: roadmap what is allowed, what is possible. And that's also
Speaker 1: something that has been lacking up to this moment. It's
Speaker 1: unclear what farming is acceptable for the Netherlands within the
Speaker 1: targos they want to reach basically, so they want they
Speaker 1: want clarity. If these farms are forced to shut down,
Speaker 1: if others have to cut their herds in half or
Speaker 1: more in order to meet the requirements and somehow still
Speaker 1: stay in business, where will the milk, the meat, the cheese,
Speaker 1: everything else that those farms are now producing come from.
Speaker 1: Because I guess the assumption is that the demand for
Speaker 1: those products isn't going to drop. They'll just have to
Speaker 1: come from someplace else. What farmers have been saying is, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're feeding a Netherlands, so what are you doing to us?
Speaker 1: That is true, but also not entirely true, because I
Speaker 1: think about seventy percent of what is produced in the
Speaker 1: Netherlands is for export, and Nelands is the second biggest
Speaker 1: export or in the world when it comes to agricultural product.
Speaker 1: If they will have to minimize their their output, then
Speaker 1: someone else in the world as an opportunity to fill
Speaker 1: the gap. Basically, what would that mean for the economy
Speaker 1: of the Netherlands to lose those exports And a very
Speaker 1: interesting question because the strange thing is that we're the
Speaker 1: second biggest exporter of agriculture products in the world. But
Speaker 1: there's some important context there because if you look at
Speaker 1: how big part it is of the Dutch GDPs, only
Speaker 1: one point four percent, Like, it's not nothing, but it's
Speaker 1: also not very it's not also non major. One element
Speaker 1: is important here is that those numbers of exporting products
Speaker 1: are inflated a little bit because of what we call
Speaker 1: the Rotterdam effects. In Rotterdam City in Netherlands, we have
Speaker 1: the port of Rotodam, which is the biggest of Europe,
Speaker 1: and a lot of products that are produced in the
Speaker 1: heartlands of Europe are shipped to the rest of the
Speaker 1: world via Rotterdam and often those products end up on
Speaker 1: the balance sheet of Dutch export. By the end, it's
Speaker 1: it's not that big of a deal for the Dutch economy.
Speaker 1: It will hurt, but I don't think that will be
Speaker 1: the biggest problem. One interesting thing about the Netherlands is
Speaker 1: how progressive A lot of the agriculture is there's you know,
Speaker 1: in worms, fields of greenhouses where lettuce, tomatoes, other things
Speaker 1: are grown. And yet we have on the other side
Speaker 1: this traditional agriculture which is very polluting. Is there conflict
Speaker 1: between those two different sort of visions of farming and
Speaker 1: agriculture in the country. This is an augument of those
Speaker 1: same farms and elands. They say, like Luke, we're the
Speaker 1: most innovative farmers in the world. Why if you're going
Speaker 1: to close down farms, why will you close on our farms?
Speaker 1: And I think if there is a future for the
Speaker 1: Dutch agriculture sector, it lies in the innovation. We have
Speaker 1: the Wakening University which is at the forefront of research
Speaker 1: when it comes to agriculture. So I think the nlance
Speaker 1: will still be able to make a lot of money
Speaker 1: with this innovation, but perhaps they shouldn't produce everything themselves
Speaker 1: in their own country. So tensions are really high still
Speaker 1: between farmers and the government. How do you see this
Speaker 1: playing out? What is the solution? Obviously some politicians are
Speaker 1: going to want to be responsive to farmers who vote,
Speaker 1: and yet they have to balance against the requirements of
Speaker 1: climate change. Where do you see this heading in June,
Speaker 1: the target was presented of a fifty percent reduction by
Speaker 1: twenty thirty, and only last week the government presented a
Speaker 1: buyout plan. What does that mean? It means that as
Speaker 1: a farmer you can say, high government, please buy my
Speaker 1: farm in a way to reach the targets. And not
Speaker 1: all details are known at the moment, but what it
Speaker 1: seems to be is that they're going to offer one
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty percent of the current market value of
Speaker 1: their company or their lends. How are farmers responding to
Speaker 1: the buyout plan? Are they signing up? Do you think
Speaker 1: that many of them will take this deal? Mixed signals
Speaker 1: from the farmers. Some are very happy. There's also quite
Speaker 1: some farmers that already wanted to quit their business and
Speaker 1: not just waiting for a good offer basically. But you
Speaker 1: also have those big farms which are just making lots
Speaker 1: of money producing their products, and those are also the
Speaker 1: big polluters, and if they continue their business they can
Speaker 1: make way more money than if they would sell it today.
Speaker 1: I think those are the essential farms are not not
Speaker 1: that keen to go along with the split. The hopes
Speaker 1: of the government and the political party at the moment
Speaker 1: is that this voluntary buy a plan will do the trick,
Speaker 1: and if it doesn't, then you at some points have
Speaker 1: to get to a place where you're going to use force,
Speaker 1: and that is a bridge many political parties don't want
Speaker 1: to cross at this moment. Dutch Prime Minister Margret did
Speaker 1: say that it could happen at some point that you
Speaker 1: need force. When you say for us, you mean going
Speaker 1: in and actually shutting down the farms, that would be
Speaker 1: a very extreme move. Yeah, that would be in a
Speaker 1: very extreme move. But if you if you listen to
Speaker 1: the specialists, it's quite likely because it's not the case
Speaker 1: that if half of the farmers will quit that you
Speaker 1: reach the targus. It's also specific farms that are close
Speaker 1: to a very vulnerable nature reserves. Those farms have to
Speaker 1: close down and if those farms decide not to, then
Speaker 1: force will be necessary. And the Dutch government currently consists
Speaker 1: of four parties, it's a coalition government, and at least
Speaker 1: one party is very much opposed using force because many
Speaker 1: of their voters are farmers. So if you end up
Speaker 1: in a situation that force will be necessary, it's quite
Speaker 1: possible that there will be a big crisis within the
Speaker 1: Dutch government that could even topple it, and who knows
Speaker 1: what will happen after that. It's a very sensitive topic
Speaker 1: and it will stay difficult for quite some time. Dietrich, Brazil,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for being here. Thanks West for having me.
Speaker 1: Was a pleasant occasion. Yeah, it's not just the Netherlands
Speaker 1: where this political and economic battle over agriculture is playing out.
Speaker 1: More on Man when we return. The tensions we're seeing
Speaker 1: in the Netherlands are also playing out in other countries
Speaker 1: around the world. To talk about that, Agne Escada Susa
Speaker 1: joins me from London. She is a food reporter and
Speaker 1: also known affectionately as Bloomberg's foods are Eggie. Thanks for
Speaker 1: being here, Thank you for having us, Aggy. When we
Speaker 1: talk about the biggest pollutants, it's often oil or coal,
Speaker 1: but as we just heard from Dietrich, the Netherlands is
Speaker 1: zeroing in an agriculture pollutants. In your own reporting, you
Speaker 1: describe how other countries in Europe and around the world
Speaker 1: are also targeting agriculture. Why is this happening now? Farming
Speaker 1: and agriculture is still relatively little understood driver of climate
Speaker 1: change is more effort and more understanding. I think the
Speaker 1: public opinion is changing. When it comes to impact of
Speaker 1: farming on the environment, it's actually pretty big. Agriculture itself
Speaker 1: accounts for a quarter of global greenhouse gas emissions. Growing
Speaker 1: your food but then also transporting the food all the
Speaker 1: way to retailers, that actually accounts for about a third
Speaker 1: of global greenhouse gas emissions. So it's actually substantial. And
Speaker 1: just looking at livestock, livestock is a major driver of
Speaker 1: emissions of the lend, usage of water, consumption of so
Speaker 1: many different aspects, and cleaning up agriculture cannot happen without
Speaker 1: tackling the environmental footprint of livestock. And what exactly is
Speaker 1: it about livestock that is so polluting? The environmental footprint
Speaker 1: of livestock is so multidimensional. First and foremost, I think
Speaker 1: the most important thing when it comes to livestock is
Speaker 1: the fact that livestock emit methane. It's a really powerful gas,
Speaker 1: and livestock is actually a major source of methane emissions.
Speaker 1: This happens through a so called enteric fermentation. It basically
Speaker 1: means that the digestive system of cattle of sheep causes
Speaker 1: microbes inside stomachs of other animals to actually release methane.
Speaker 1: They're gassy. They're gassy animals, they're gassy, they're gases, so
Speaker 1: they burp out, they burp out methane. Their manure, their
Speaker 1: urine pollute soil. You know, it's a source of nitrogen oxide.
Speaker 1: That's another polluting factor. And on top of it, they
Speaker 1: eat a lot of crops, so you need to actually
Speaker 1: use so much more land in order to grow a
Speaker 1: crop for them. The management is not there yet. More
Speaker 1: needs to be done in order to figure out the
Speaker 1: way to store the manure but actually converted into biomass,
Speaker 1: converted into energy. I wanted to ask you now about
Speaker 1: the political pressure that is building in a lot of countries,
Speaker 1: especially in Europe, when it comes to governments trying to
Speaker 1: cut their greenhouse gas emissions and are now looking at
Speaker 1: farmers to do that. What is happening is that after many, many,
Speaker 1: many years of seeing a lot of focus on fossil fuels,
Speaker 1: it seems like there is more attention right now on
Speaker 1: farming in general. What we're seeing is that more governments
Speaker 1: around the world are introducing our furthering policies that are
Speaker 1: focused on agriculture and actually making agriculture most sustainable and
Speaker 1: trying to address emissions from livestock. Certainly more should be done,
Speaker 1: but there are signs that they are moving in that direction.
Speaker 1: We've had so far, I think at least one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty countries signing up to the methane pledge. The
Speaker 1: methane pledge was the major push at Glasgow at COP
Speaker 1: twenty six. There was last year's CAP conference. Since then,
Speaker 1: so many more countries have joined that pledge. So at
Speaker 1: least one hundred fifty countries have pledged to cut methane
Speaker 1: emissions by thirty percent by the end of the decade.
Speaker 1: This is a very general pledge, so it includes all
Speaker 1: sorts of sectors, and particularly it has been a focus
Speaker 1: on oil and gas. There is an understanding that in
Speaker 1: some countries agriculture will need to be tackled. There are
Speaker 1: some countries where livestock emissions and agriculture emissions account for
Speaker 1: a large share of the total country footprint. So for example,
Speaker 1: take New Zealand. Half of New Zealand carbon emissions come
Speaker 1: from agriculture. That is a very big chunk of emissions.
Speaker 1: So what's going to happen is that countries will have
Speaker 1: to determine how they're going to cut their methane emissions.
Speaker 1: So if the countries that were agriculture is a huge
Speaker 1: part of the problem, they will need to tackle it.
Speaker 1: And we're all already seeing some of those big producers
Speaker 1: trying to and introducing targets for farming. How have they
Speaker 1: responded to these restrictions that the government is trying to impose.
Speaker 1: So it depends on the country, But generally farmers are nervous.
Speaker 1: In some instances they feel they are being singled out unfairly.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they can feel confused as to actually what's going
Speaker 1: to happen. I think in several countries, like for example,
Speaker 1: in New Zealand in the Netherlands, when it comes to
Speaker 1: actually nitrogen emissions and nitrogen reduction plan, farmers know and
Speaker 1: have been it's quite clear that farmers will need to
Speaker 1: reduce their herd size and they feel that that will
Speaker 1: lead to the loss of business, the loss of profitability.
Speaker 1: They will have to change the way they've been doing things,
Speaker 1: and they feel the change is coming. But it's also
Speaker 1: you know that they're producing food. You have to put
Speaker 1: yourself in the shoes of those farmers. They've been farmers
Speaker 1: their entire lifetime. Maybe they grew up in a farming family.
Speaker 1: You know, they've been farming for generations. Suddenly they need
Speaker 1: to change this. Suddenly, a government policy, a government measure
Speaker 1: tells them, well, it's time. You know, you're going to
Speaker 1: have to cut back on your herds. You might actually
Speaker 1: have to shut down your business, go and move to
Speaker 1: the city and do something else. In a way, it
Speaker 1: feels like they're gonna have to be approoted, and it's
Speaker 1: a huge confusion as well as to huge uncertainty, huge confusion,
Speaker 1: feeling of the lack of appreciation for what they do.
Speaker 1: They essentially feel under siege, under siege from a government,
Speaker 1: undersiege from vegans suddenly telling everyone it less meat. It's
Speaker 1: a lot to take on. At the same time, you know,
Speaker 1: they're told to cut back on pesticides, cut back on fertilizers.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to be taxed more. So suddenly there's
Speaker 1: just a lot to take on. The world is changing
Speaker 1: at the same time, they're being affected by the consequences
Speaker 1: by the climate change itself. We've had years of drought,
Speaker 1: we've had extreme weather, and that's affecting their crops, is
Speaker 1: affecting their livestock, and so they're in a way they're pummeled.
Speaker 1: They're being struck from both sides, and they've been protesting
Speaker 1: some of them. Is that right, I mean kind of
Speaker 1: very dramatic protests to show politicians how they're feeling. Yes,
Speaker 1: and twenty twenty two fields has been a year of
Speaker 1: protest farmer protests, at least in Europe. What is quite
Speaker 1: unique about twenty twenty two is, first and foremost, what
Speaker 1: we so earlier this year is the fact that the
Speaker 1: energy and fertilizer costs are on the rise. That's squeezing
Speaker 1: farmer margins. At the same time, they don't feel they're
Speaker 1: being paid enough for the food they produce. And then
Speaker 1: it's the climate policies that are coming. As governments introduce them.
Speaker 1: It feels like climb policies are becoming one more sticking
Speaker 1: topic factor when it comes to the farmer discontent. It's
Speaker 1: a relatively new thing and we expect to see more
Speaker 1: of it. We see a lot of politicians sort of
Speaker 1: jumping on this bandwagon against green policies in order to
Speaker 1: curry favor with farmers. There are millions of farmers out
Speaker 1: there and very often they're a strong electorate that politicians
Speaker 1: have to count with them. They need to respond to
Speaker 1: their needs because they know they may lose votes. They
Speaker 1: also have in several countries they lobbing is strong. In
Speaker 1: a way, you could argue that that may be something
Speaker 1: that could put breaks on the introduction of climate policies
Speaker 1: on time and at scale. And it feels like governments
Speaker 1: are really weighing it carefully. The sentiment of farmers are
Speaker 1: feeling actually has been to an extend captured by right
Speaker 1: wing groups by a movement opposing vaccinations and COVID restrictions.
Speaker 1: We even so former US President Donald Trump speaking out
Speaker 1: on the issue of farmers and on protests, and he
Speaker 1: did say that farmers in the Netherlands, of all places,
Speaker 1: are courageously opposing the climate tyranny of the Dutch government.
Speaker 1: We speak, farmers in the Netherlands, of all places, are
Speaker 1: courageously opposing climate tyranny of the Dutch government. Can you
Speaker 1: believe those We do see this argument being furthered by
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists, by extreme right as well, that climate policies
Speaker 1: will lead to a reduction of food supplies, that it
Speaker 1: may actually cause shortages, if not famine. You know, you
Speaker 1: see farmers repeating that argument as well. It does appeal
Speaker 1: to primordial fears in a way. I mean, we're all
Speaker 1: concerned about food and people are struggling with food inflation,
Speaker 1: with the cost of living crisis. To actually see that, wow,
Speaker 1: you know, my food built is going to go up
Speaker 1: even more if my government actually introduces climate policy and
Speaker 1: we're going to produce less food and the prices are
Speaker 1: going to go up. I mean that really appeals to
Speaker 1: people's fears. We need to pay attention to the populist argument.
Speaker 1: It's such an easy argument to make. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a hashtag. There are social media hashtags out there. No farmers,
Speaker 1: no food farmers are using that hashtag, but anti vaxers
Speaker 1: are using that hashtag and we're seeing it. You know
Speaker 1: from what I read as well in terms of their claims,
Speaker 1: they're very, very simplistic, and they're just very it's so
Speaker 1: much more complicated than that, but it's it's very catchy.
Speaker 1: When we come back, why do you if anything can
Speaker 1: be done to fix this mess? Egg. You've spelled out
Speaker 1: how big a problem this is, and we've heard the
Speaker 1: very dramatic example from the Netherlands of how deeply people
Speaker 1: feel about this, and so that's all that raises the
Speaker 1: question of what can be done about this? What is
Speaker 1: the solution here? Tackling pollution from agriculture and making agriculture, farming,
Speaker 1: and the food systems more sustainable is a multidimensional problem.
Speaker 1: When it comes to nitrogen, better manure management, trying to
Speaker 1: find ways of converting manure into sources of energy. When
Speaker 1: we look at methane emissions, there are new solutions coming up.
Speaker 1: For example, feed supplements that are supposed to reduce the
Speaker 1: work of microbes responsible for those submission. In other words,
Speaker 1: make them less gassy. Yes, make them less gassy. However,
Speaker 1: these solutions are still at early stages and there's no
Speaker 1: silver bullet for cutting those emissions altogether. It has to
Speaker 1: be a holistic approach from an economic perspective. If these
Speaker 1: regulations go into effect and dairy farmers have to cut
Speaker 1: the size of their herds, that in itself will reduce emissions.
Speaker 1: I guess what then happens is dairy products of all kinds,
Speaker 1: the prices rise, and that decreases demand. Because really, aren't
Speaker 1: we looking at a problem that people want this? People
Speaker 1: want milk, they want cheese, they want meat, and as
Speaker 1: long as there's a demand for it, people are going
Speaker 1: to want to produce it, and then it becomes just
Speaker 1: a matter of how much does it cost. Currently, we
Speaker 1: still produce more food than we consume. What needs to
Speaker 1: change is actually distribution of food, the fact that we
Speaker 1: waste so much food. About a third of food produced
Speaker 1: around the world is being wasted or lost at the
Speaker 1: harvest level. So this is beyond livestock. But I think
Speaker 1: it's a very important point. If we were to, in theory,
Speaker 1: reduce food waste, we would end up getting more food.
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, we could speculate on what
Speaker 1: it will do to prices, but none of those climate
Speaker 1: policies need to be kind of taken in isolation. There's
Speaker 1: a variety of solutions. There's a variety of policies that
Speaker 1: can be implemented, so reducing food waste would be one
Speaker 1: of them. Coming up with alternative proteins, yes, we do
Speaker 1: need to acknowledge, and you're absolutely right, people want to
Speaker 1: eat that stuff. People like cheese. They love cheese, you know,
Speaker 1: and they like their steak. So yes, there should be
Speaker 1: a push towards healthier, more sustainable diets, encouraging people to
Speaker 1: cut back on meat, especially in the developed world. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, we need to come up with solutions,
Speaker 1: come up with new alternative sources of protein, and those
Speaker 1: are being developed right now. Precision fermentation is really capturing attention.
Speaker 1: So producing cow free milk or cheese or protein, and
Speaker 1: all these things are you kind of new and in development,
Speaker 1: and there's a long process they get people to accept
Speaker 1: them over time, and until then you have a lot
Speaker 1: of these farmers who are pretty angry. I suppose it's
Speaker 1: not that different from other industries. They change over time.
Speaker 1: The question is how do you engage farmers, how do
Speaker 1: you actually bring them on board in order to support
Speaker 1: that transition in agriculture. New industries and new food sources
Speaker 1: will require will still require agriculture, will still require farmers
Speaker 1: to actually produce for them. I think the role of
Speaker 1: governments is to policemakers is to figure out the ways
Speaker 1: of bringing farmers on board so that they become part
Speaker 1: of those solutions as well. So the process when it
Speaker 1: comes to climate policies supporting new sources of food needs
Speaker 1: to be inclusive of farmers. This is something that climate
Speaker 1: policy makers need to be thinking about. One place we
Speaker 1: having talked about is one of the world's biggest agriculture
Speaker 1: biggest livestock market, which is the US also one of
Speaker 1: the biggest emitters of agricultural pollutants, and yet we have
Speaker 1: seeing these kinds of protests in the US. Yes, it's
Speaker 1: it's quite interesting what is happening in the US. There
Speaker 1: have been voices out of the US looking to Dutch
Speaker 1: farmers as an example of why governments shouldn't get involved.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, when we look at the
Speaker 1: US climate policies as well and what they want to
Speaker 1: do with livestock, that we haven't really seen much action
Speaker 1: that the US isn't really cracking down on farmers in
Speaker 1: a way that these other countries are. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: So we haven't seen a push to reduce, for example,
Speaker 1: demand for meat. We haven't seen a push to slash
Speaker 1: emissions from livestock the same way as we see in
Speaker 1: other producing powerhouses. But at the same time, we do
Speaker 1: have some positive examples of where farmers can get involved,
Speaker 1: and one such example is actually regenerative agriculture. It's where
Speaker 1: the US arguably is leading the way. And what is that.
Speaker 1: What is regenerative agriculture, So it's basically involving farmers in
Speaker 1: carbon trading, farmers can earn carbon credits essentially, so they
Speaker 1: can actually earn money for their sustainable practices. So there's
Speaker 1: incentives for farmers to do things better. So they're incentire
Speaker 1: financial incentives for farmers to do things better. And that's
Speaker 1: still an nascent market, but we are seeing more and
Speaker 1: more companies trying to support those practices as well and
Speaker 1: support the farmers who supply to them, and we're seeing
Speaker 1: more farmers actually getting involved. It's an example of farmers
Speaker 1: actually being on board the sustainability shift. Agnesca Desusa thanks
Speaker 1: so much for joining me today. Thank you very much
Speaker 1: for having me. You can read more of Agnesca desusas
Speaker 1: and Detreg bas Seals reporting at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks
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