WEBVTT - Why Didn’t She Scream? 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.400 Hi everyone. Before we start, just a note that we 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:10.840 discussed domestic violence and sexual assault in this episode. It's 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:14.319 easy from the cheap seats to be like, well, what 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.360 do you still love about someone who's hurting you? But 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:26.320 it's a really complicated relationship. I'm SUSIEVNACHERM and I'm Jessica Bennett. 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:28.960 This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:31.440 cultural moment from the past that shaped us and. 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:32.960 That we just can't stop thinking about. 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.839 So, jess, we just finished an episode about Robin Gibbons 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.920 and how she was treated publicly after she admitted that 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.320 her husband, Mike Tyson, the then heavyweight champion of the world, 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.960 was physically abusive with her, and what the reaction to 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:48.320 that was. 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.080 There was a lot of backlash against her. 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.600 Yeah, and if you haven't listened to that episode, you 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:54.360 can go back and check it out. Robin's story is 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:55.280 really fascinating. 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:57.440 Yeah, And one thing I really thought about a lot 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.520 during the research for that episode was how often this 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.280 question comes up when women are in these domestic violent situations, 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:08.280 or when women are sexually assaulted, of why did she stay. 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:10.400 Or why didn't she leave, or why didn't she scream, 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:10.720 like that. 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:15.400 We have this expectations of victims, like we have a 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.039 way we want victims to behave, and when they deviate 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:23.240 from that, that's used to somehow discredit their version of events, 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.640 like somehow they're not telling the truth. Or there's also 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.039 just kind of this weirdly embedded idea in that that 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.000 it's like women's weakness that causes their abuse, Like if 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.280 you were stronger, you would just get up and go, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.680 or if you were stronger, you'd fight physically, whereas, like 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.319 you know, I don't know how much fighting back physically 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.280 if you're fighting with the heavyweight champion of the world 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:46.920 is going to like do for you, and in fact, 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.120 it probably means you're going to get hurt more. Right, 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.760 But we just have these really deeply embedded ideas in 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.840 us that if you don't fight, you somehow deserve the 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:58.720 thing that happened to you, or that if. 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:02.200 You don't act a certain way, you're making it all up. 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:02.680 Right. 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.120 So, when I was thinking about this, I actually was 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:07.760 thinking back to that really excellent piece you did when 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.239 you were covering the Egen Carroll trial about why didn't 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.959 she scream? Which was a question that the defense really 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.840 put to her right as a way to discredit her. Yeah. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.400 So this was a case involving Egen Carroll, who is 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:24.079 the former advice columnist and journalist who has accused Donald 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.400 Trump of raping her in a dressing room of a 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.400 department store in the nineteen nineties. But this case was 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.560 actually a defamation suit, and Trump was actually found liable 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.920 for battery under New York state law and defaming her 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:39.480 by calling her a liar when. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.000 She spoke about his sexual assault. 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.560 But the line of questioning that the defense in that 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.480 case kept bringing up was why Egen Carroll did not scream? 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:54.840 If Trump had allegedly, you know, assaulted her, violently assaulted 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.400 her in this public dressing room, why did she let 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.720 him do it? Why didn't she out of the room. 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.480 Why didn't she pound and stop her feet and scream? 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.280 And look? You know, the. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.400 Reality and what I found when doing this piece is 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.000 that actually that's a really. 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:17.160 Common response people who are in a situation, a violent situation, 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.440 whether it's sexual assault or otherwise, it is common for 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.920 them to want not scream or two to actually freeze. 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.760 It's a common brain response to a trauma. So that's 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:30.280 what the scholars will tell you. And you know, I 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:31.080 called up all these. 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:32.840 Scholars, But what was actually. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.720 Happening in the courtroom was Trump's defense attorneys were just 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.080 repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly asking again and again and again, 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:40.000 why didn't you do this? 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:41.600 Why didn't you call the police? Why didn't you tell 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:42.280 someone sooner? 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.120 Why didn't you go to the doctor and have it 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:47.840 reported that you were injured? Why didn't you scrap like 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.760 on and on on and on, And I think what 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.240 you're getting at is these are the incessant questions that 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.120 we ask of victims. 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.839 Right, And it's so insidious, right, because we have these 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.840 are sort of arbitrary, very standards that have been set. Right, Well, 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.640 who decides that you have to behave a certain way 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:07.440 when you're being physically assaulted? 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:08.160 I mean the. 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.480 People that should decide are trauma experts, Yeah, but they're 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.880 not the ones being interviewed. And so it was interesting 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.440 when I was doing this research to learn that actually 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.000 a lot of these questions are. 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.400 Deeply baked into the law, yeah. 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.920 Which actually aren't arbitrary, like the question of screaming, and 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:29.240 many of these questions that are repeatedly asked of victims 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.919 by defense attorneys. Sometimes by the press and the public, 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.200 they're baked into the law. So what I learned in 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.360 talking to a historian, his name is John wood Sweet. 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:42.359 I want to give him credit because he explained this 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:46.080 all to me. But basically, the question of screaming can 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.240 be traced back to the first recorded rape trial in 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.840 US history, Oh Wow, which happened in seventeen ninety three. 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.799 It was a man named Harry Bedlow, and he raped 0:04:55.839 --> 0:05:00.200 a seventeen year old seamstress inside a brothel. Now, in 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.600 his book on that case, this historian explains how the 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:07.520 defense of the rapist here relied on a series of 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:09.839 questions you were supposed to ask a woman, And these 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.640 were questions that had been created by Sir Matthew Hale. 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:15.719 If his name sounds from earlier, it's because he was 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:20.880 cited in the Dobbs anti abortion decision. So he's like 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.279 this old lawmaker and they had created this line of 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.200 questioning for women that was basically like, okay, one, did 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:29.599 she come from a good family? 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:30.240 Two? 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.040 Did she cry out for help? Did she fight back? 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.320 Did she show signs of physical violence on her body 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:37.960 or clothing? 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:40.840 Did she report the crime in a timely manner, and. 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.159 So these are the questions that defense attorneys are still 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.839 today relying on when they questioned victims. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.480 I know what's crazy about that is I was thinking 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:51.880 recently about how in a lot of states with these 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.680 abortion bands, the only way you can get an abortion 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:56.479 is if you can prove you were raped, and that 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.640 these are the questions that are going to get asked 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:03.039 to actually qualify whether or not you can get an abortion, 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.880 Like how do you decide if someone's been raped or not? 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:13.080 And so these things do really have very real world implications. 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.480 And I think they get at this. 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:19.320 Idea that we don't really understand trauma and how it 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.560 impacts people and how people experience terrible things. 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:22.960 Yeah. 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.120 I mean our common understanding of this subject is like, yeah, 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.120 why didn't she leave or why didn't she scream? 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:30.360 Yeah? And I think actually one thing that I thought 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.159 was so interesting in the research about why women stay 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.560 is that a lot of the reasons have to do 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.000 with trauma bonding, which is this thing we talk about 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:41.760 very colloquially now, like I feel like everyone I know 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.600 it's like I went to work with this person and 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.080 now we're trauma bonding, and like that's I think just 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.279 like a very interesting thing that these things seep into 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.520 the culture and then get kind of reduced, because what 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.600 trauma bonding actually means is that when you're in an 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.719 abusive relationship, that cycle of abuse, the sort of like 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:04.359 tearrible thing that happens, actually draws you closer to the abuser. 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.960 There's this like bond that's created because the way your 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.720 brain sort of processes having this terrible moment and then 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.280 all of this seduction afterwards that's trying to convince you 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.760 that that moment was like not that important, actually bonds 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:19.640 you to your abuser. 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:39.760 And to basically correct everyone on TikTok, actually I wanted 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.120 to ask you, Suz, so you've done all this research 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.920 into this, and when you were researching Robin, what are 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.120 the actual reasons that she and others have given for 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:49.280 why they did stay. 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:51.800 Well, so there's some general reasons that we kind of 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:53.560 just have a better understanding of now, and then I'll 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.520 get into sort of what she has said about her 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.960 personal situation. But look, I think for a lot of 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.840 women there are financial reasons. A lot of men, especially 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.920 if they have children, rely on their partner for their 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.200 financial means and for taking care of their children. There's 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.480 also a lot of issues around children. If you leave 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.600 your spouse and he is abusive to you, that doesn't 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.760 necessarily mean that you will get custody because it will 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:19.680 be seen as you having abandoned your children, or you 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:21.600 don't want to leave your children with an abuser. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:23.360 That's like a very obvious one. 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.960 I think there's also a lot of shame, right. I 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.600 think a lot of women, and Robin has talked about this, 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:31.920 don't want to admit to anyone what's happening. So if 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:33.839 they don't admit what's happening, how are they going to 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.360 explain or get help or the necessary kind of resources 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.319 they need. And most abusers have spent a lot of 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:44.560 time isolating their victims even before the physical abuse begins, 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.840 so often they don't have resources or friends or family 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:49.000 anymore they can rely on. 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.240 They're sort of in an isolated position. Got it. 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.200 But I think the most interesting thing I learned is 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.000 that actually it's also extremely dangerous to leave your abuser. 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.320 It's the most likely time where a homicide occurs in 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.640 an abusive relationship because so much has left either right 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.200 before a person leaves and they're sort of declaring that 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.360 they're going to leave or right after, because what the 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.480 whole abuse is about is control, and so when the 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.720 abuser starts to feel like they might lose control, that 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:22.000 is an extremely dangerous period in the relationship. In fact, 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.319 there was a study where they interviewed men who'd killed 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:29.120 their wives, and either threats of separating or actual separations 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:34.120 were most often the precipitating events that led to those homicides. 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.280 So we know that it's extremely dangerous for women to 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.160 leave and also extremely dangerous. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:41.880 For their loved ones. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:46.720 There's also many cases where the abuser, when they no 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.240 longer have access to the victim, actually kills other people 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.880 in their lives, friends, family, et cetera, who they feel 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:54.920 are helping them escape. 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:56.400 So these are the reasons. 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.760 Experts sort of say, there's lots of reasons, but these 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.320 are the general ones that are mo off incited. And 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.520 then Robin Gibbons has herself talked a lot about the 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:08.560 fact that she really felt this bond, this probably what 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.800 would be defined now as a trauma bond with Mike Tyson. 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.319 She really felt like she could save him, She felt 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.440 protective at him, like every time one of these incidents 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:18.840 would occur, it would terrify her. But then he would 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.400 be so immediately remorseful and sad and really say to 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.280 her like I'm broken, and she would want to fix him. 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.240 And you know, I think it's easy from the cheap 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.560 seats to be like, well, what do you still love 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.480 about someone who's hurting you? But you know you are 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.360 deeply in love with someone they don't you know. It's 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.240 not just like some stranger who's abusing you. This is 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.959 someone you have a relationship with, you feel an incredible 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:42.400 tie to. 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:44.360 And who is sick and who is sick? 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.760 Right who you see as ill? So you're like, you know, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.040 there's all sorts of ways that you can rationalize that, right, 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.200 Like you wouldn't leave someone who was sick. In another way, 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:55.880 why would you leave this person. It's a really complicated relationship. 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:57.920 And she actually talked to Oprah about it at some point. 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.120 So Robin Gibbs went on Oprah when she wrote her 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.679 book in two thousand and seven, and she said, you know, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:05.800 I felt like I had a purpose. I really felt 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.880 like I had to protect him and love him and 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.560 convince him that the world could be an okay place. 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.440 What's fascinating is he's physically hurting her, Like there's really 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.760 harrowing passages in the book, in her memoir where she's 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:19.679 describing him holding a knife to her throat or him 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.719 chasing her around, like there's like definitely some sexual assault. 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.040 But what she says about it is that she wanted 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.000 to take his hurt and his pain away. Oh wow, right, 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.920 because I think it's hard to separate yourself. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.120 From that person in some ways. 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.040 And she finally leaves, not because she has fallen out 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.120 of love with him, or even that she stops talking 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.080 to him or seeing him, because she does continue to 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.800 have a relationship with him even after they start going 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.000 through this very nasty public divorce. She says she leaves 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.520 because her family. She sees what it's doing to her 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.880 mom and her sister, right, and so she's like, I 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.440 can't continue to do this to them. And I think 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:54.880 that's just. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:56.680 Like a human response. But we don't want our. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.480 Victims to be human, we want them to be perfect, right, 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:04.160 And Rob is this like very composed, beautiful, smart woman. 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.760 She's not what we imagine when we imagine a victim. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.120 Oh, it's so interesting because it's in her case, it 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.360 was like maybe she was too beautiful and too composed, 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.000 But then in other scenarios we want them to be 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.920 more composed, like they're not composed enough, or it's making 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.320 me think of the Amber Heard and Johnny dep trial, 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.959 which you know, whatever you think about that. There were 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.119 many questions around her behavior, and actually it was fascinating 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.520 talking to Egen caroll On to her lawyers about this 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.960 too when I was covering that case, because the question 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.120 of like do you cry on the stand? 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:34.920 Is it too much or too little? 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:35.719 Do you want to. 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.760 Look put together and composed or do you want to 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.320 look a little disheveled like you've been hurt, And like 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.640 how you present yourself all these tiny details from your 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.800 hair to the way you're sitting, to how much you cry, 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:48.120 to does your voice crack. 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.480 It's almost like you have to perform, especially if you're 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:52.040 on the stand. 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.080 I mean, right, but that's so crazy because you're like 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:56.520 a victim of trauma. You're actually going through this like 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.440 traumatic experience. Testifying is a traumatic experience. So then to 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.760 think like I can't even imagine what it must be 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:03.840 like to be on display like that, and then also 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.679 worry about every tiny facial movement or. 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.280 Just like how you're betraying to see too, because it's like, 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.600 where would I have gotten the idea of what a 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:13.880 good victim looks like? 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.280 I don't know. It's not something that I have thought 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:16.840 much about. 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.280 But you're sitting there in the courtroom and you're like, oh, 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:21.520 is that believable? 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:23.679 Right? Like I think we think there's a common sense 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.240 reaction to terrible things happening to you. And like, as 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.760 someone who's gone through enormous grief my dad died when 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.120 I was young. One thing that I have really seen 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:32.760 a lot in my friends who are going through grief 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:34.920 is they feel really guilty if they're grieving in. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.080 A certain way or not grieving in a certain way. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.679 And one thing I can tell you is there is 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.760 no normal response to grief, Like sometimes the only response 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:47.439 is laughing. Sometimes the response is silence or shutting down, 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.520 and even that is often judged, Like when people lose 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.120 people in a public way, there's often this question of 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.120 like why are they so numb or why. 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:55.680 Are they crying? 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.120 Laughing Laughing is a really big that came up in 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.840 this trial as well, where she laughed at different points 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:02.920 and she would joke about it and that was sort 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:05.240 of her way of making sense of it and trying 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.120 to show to herself that it hadn't broken her. 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.800 Right, It's a coping mechanism exactly. 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.240 But it's weird people don't understand it. And so to 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.280 the original point, I mean, I do think that we 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.119 may have some better. 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:19.800 Understanding of trauma now. 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.160 Like when this trauma expert got up on the stand 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.200 in this case, you could hear her describe how just 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:30.120 like you said, almost any response is an okay response 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.760 to something terrible happening, because people react in all sorts 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:37.000 of crazy ways. So the idea of asking why did 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.960 or didn't she do X is just a misnomer. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.680 Yeah, I mean, honestly, I have to say I was 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.200 really trying to think about how I came to have 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.440 these ideas about how people were supposed to react, but 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:48.320 also how I've. 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:49.200 Come to unlearn them. 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.880 Yeah, and I have to say that I genuinely think 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:53.480 this is going to sound a little out there, but 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.040 I genuinely think Law and Order SVU has changed the 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:56.640 culture on. 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:57.280 A lot of this time. 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.560 That's so interesting, Like, so much of what I've learned 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.720 from that show is this idea that people react in 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:04.920 all sorts of different ways, like One of the things 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:06.760 I remember learning from that show when I was quite 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.120 young was that often people who are sexually assaulted will 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.560 continue to maintain some sort of contact with their abuser, 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.200 and that that's always used as an example of how 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.920 they weren't abused, but that that is actually just a 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.480 mechanism by which they're trying to keep things normal and 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:21.840 gain control of the. 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.240 Situation or feel like it's not as bad as it is. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:25.160 Yeah, and I think that. 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:26.960 So there's like lots of ways in which I think 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:27.800 that show has. 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.640 Actually met I think you're so right, and so I. 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:32.880 Think we are just like as a culture, trying to 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:37.240 get a better understanding of these issues. But the fact 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:39.160 that that happened in Adrian Carroll, I mean, in that 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.600 piece you had so many quotes from judges and other 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.400 people asking these wild ask questions. 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:46.720 Well, this is the thing, I mean. 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.160 And you know, arguably, the more stories like this that 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.160 we write and the more we talk about this, the 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.320 more it normalizes that this idea that you can respond 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.200 in all sorts of different ways and actually stigmatizes the 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.200 idea that you would ask someone why they scream. So 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.720 I looked back at all these cases over time and 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:05.960 things like all right, there was a nineteen eighty three 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:10.120 case of a woman, Cheryl Royo, who was gang raped, 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.080 and the attorney questioning her in that case said, well, 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.360 if you're living with a man, she had a partner, 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.880 what are you doing running around the streets getting raped? 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:19.920 Like that's insane? 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.760 Obviously, wasn't there that judge who was like, why didn't 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:24.160 you just like lock your knees. 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.240 There's also like in the brock Turner case, which was 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.280 one the woman who was sexually assaulted in twenty fifteen 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.920 at Stanford a college student, and the attorney asked, well, 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.280 you did a lot of partying in college, right, like 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.080 as if to equate that right. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:40.920 And there was that crazy incident on Santa and where 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.080 Don Lemon asked one of Bill Cosby's rape accusers why 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.680 she didn't just like bite down on his penis like 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:52.240 there's just this wild cultural thing that hasn't shifted as 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:53.120 much as we'd like. 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.600 But yes, and the end, it's almost like often when 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.840 these cases go to trial, which is when a lot 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:03.560 of these questions occur, at least said out loud, either 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.600 we may have stopped following or you're not getting the 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.720 trial transcripts, or you're not in the room, so you're 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.760 not actually hearing these questions asked. But even like in 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.760 the Weinstein case, the Harvey Weinstein case, his attorney asked 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.760 one of his victims who was raped in a hotel 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.560 room in twenty thirteen, well, why'd you stay in the 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.640 room where you were attacked after you allege this occurred? 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:25.600 And it's the same kind of thing. It's like, yes, 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:29.040 sometimes you will maintain some relationship to the person, sometimes 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:29.880 they stay in the room. 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.160 Well, sometimes you're just in shock, like you're not quite 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.239 ready to like move, or you're afraid. It's just a 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:38.479 reminder that even. 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:40.879 You know, there is no perfect victim. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.720 And you know, if you've gone through something or you're 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.040 going through a traumatic experience, you do not need to 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.720 feel all this expectation for how you should be. You 0:17:49.760 --> 0:18:13.400 get to process things the way you process them. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.280 This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.359 Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.719 and want us to explore in a future episode. Email 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.159 us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find us 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:27.840 on Instagram at in retropod. 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:30.919 If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.879 on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.639 hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:38.359 which we may or may not delete. 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.040 You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:45.120 and at susib NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.000 Fight Club and This Is eighteen. 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.919 In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.719 Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.280 engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attiya is our researcher and 0:18:58.320 --> 0:18:59.360 associate producer. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.959 Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.439 executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norvell. 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:08.600