1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Before we start, just a note that we 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: discussed domestic violence and sexual assault in this episode. It's 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: easy from the cheap seats to be like, well, what 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: do you still love about someone who's hurting you? But 5 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: it's a really complicated relationship. I'm SUSIEVNACHERM and I'm Jessica Bennett. 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: cultural moment from the past that shaped us and. 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: That we just can't stop thinking about. 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: So, jess, we just finished an episode about Robin Gibbons 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: and how she was treated publicly after she admitted that 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: her husband, Mike Tyson, the then heavyweight champion of the world, 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: was physically abusive with her, and what the reaction to 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: that was. 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 3: There was a lot of backlash against her. 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, and if you haven't listened to that episode, you 16 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 4: can go back and check it out. Robin's story is 17 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 4: really fascinating. 18 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And one thing I really thought about a lot 19 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: during the research for that episode was how often this 20 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: question comes up when women are in these domestic violent situations, 21 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: or when women are sexually assaulted, of why did she stay. 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 3: Or why didn't she leave, or why didn't she scream, 23 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 3: like that. 24 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: We have this expectations of victims, like we have a 25 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: way we want victims to behave, and when they deviate 26 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: from that, that's used to somehow discredit their version of events, 27 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: like somehow they're not telling the truth. Or there's also 28 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: just kind of this weirdly embedded idea in that that 29 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: it's like women's weakness that causes their abuse, Like if 30 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: you were stronger, you would just get up and go, 31 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: or if you were stronger, you'd fight physically, whereas, like 32 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how much fighting back physically 33 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: if you're fighting with the heavyweight champion of the world 34 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: is going to like do for you, and in fact, 35 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: it probably means you're going to get hurt more. Right, 36 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: But we just have these really deeply embedded ideas in 37 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: us that if you don't fight, you somehow deserve the 38 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: thing that happened to you, or that if. 39 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 4: You don't act a certain way, you're making it all up. 40 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: Right. 41 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: So, when I was thinking about this, I actually was 42 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: thinking back to that really excellent piece you did when 43 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: you were covering the Egen Carroll trial about why didn't 44 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: she scream? Which was a question that the defense really 45 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: put to her right as a way to discredit her. Yeah. 46 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 4: So this was a case involving Egen Carroll, who is 47 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 4: the former advice columnist and journalist who has accused Donald 48 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 4: Trump of raping her in a dressing room of a 49 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 4: department store in the nineteen nineties. But this case was 50 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 4: actually a defamation suit, and Trump was actually found liable 51 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 4: for battery under New York state law and defaming her 52 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 4: by calling her a liar when. 53 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: She spoke about his sexual assault. 54 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 4: But the line of questioning that the defense in that 55 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 4: case kept bringing up was why Egen Carroll did not scream? 56 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 4: If Trump had allegedly, you know, assaulted her, violently assaulted 57 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 4: her in this public dressing room, why did she let 58 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 4: him do it? Why didn't she out of the room. 59 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 4: Why didn't she pound and stop her feet and scream? 60 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: And look? You know, the. 61 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: Reality and what I found when doing this piece is 62 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: that actually that's a really. 63 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 4: Common response people who are in a situation, a violent situation, 64 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 4: whether it's sexual assault or otherwise, it is common for 65 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 4: them to want not scream or two to actually freeze. 66 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 4: It's a common brain response to a trauma. So that's 67 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 4: what the scholars will tell you. And you know, I 68 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 4: called up all these. 69 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: Scholars, But what was actually. 70 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 4: Happening in the courtroom was Trump's defense attorneys were just 71 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 4: repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly asking again and again and again, 72 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 4: why didn't you do this? 73 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: Why didn't you call the police? Why didn't you tell 74 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: someone sooner? 75 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 4: Why didn't you go to the doctor and have it 76 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 4: reported that you were injured? Why didn't you scrap like 77 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 4: on and on on and on, And I think what 78 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 4: you're getting at is these are the incessant questions that 79 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 4: we ask of victims. 80 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,839 Speaker 1: Right, And it's so insidious, right, because we have these 81 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: are sort of arbitrary, very standards that have been set. Right, Well, 82 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: who decides that you have to behave a certain way 83 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: when you're being physically assaulted? 84 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: I mean the. 85 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 4: People that should decide are trauma experts, Yeah, but they're 86 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 4: not the ones being interviewed. And so it was interesting 87 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 4: when I was doing this research to learn that actually 88 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 4: a lot of these questions are. 89 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: Deeply baked into the law, yeah. 90 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 4: Which actually aren't arbitrary, like the question of screaming, and 91 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 4: many of these questions that are repeatedly asked of victims 92 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 4: by defense attorneys. Sometimes by the press and the public, 93 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 4: they're baked into the law. So what I learned in 94 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 4: talking to a historian, his name is John wood Sweet. 95 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 4: I want to give him credit because he explained this 96 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 4: all to me. But basically, the question of screaming can 97 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 4: be traced back to the first recorded rape trial in 98 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 4: US history, Oh Wow, which happened in seventeen ninety three. 99 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 4: It was a man named Harry Bedlow, and he raped 100 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 4: a seventeen year old seamstress inside a brothel. Now, in 101 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 4: his book on that case, this historian explains how the 102 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 4: defense of the rapist here relied on a series of 103 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 4: questions you were supposed to ask a woman, And these 104 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 4: were questions that had been created by Sir Matthew Hale. 105 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 4: If his name sounds from earlier, it's because he was 106 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 4: cited in the Dobbs anti abortion decision. So he's like 107 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 4: this old lawmaker and they had created this line of 108 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 4: questioning for women that was basically like, okay, one, did 109 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 4: she come from a good family? 110 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: Two? 111 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 2: Did she cry out for help? Did she fight back? 112 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 4: Did she show signs of physical violence on her body 113 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 4: or clothing? 114 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: Did she report the crime in a timely manner, and. 115 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 4: So these are the questions that defense attorneys are still 116 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 4: today relying on when they questioned victims. 117 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: I know what's crazy about that is I was thinking 118 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: recently about how in a lot of states with these 119 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: abortion bands, the only way you can get an abortion 120 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: is if you can prove you were raped, and that 121 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: these are the questions that are going to get asked 122 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: to actually qualify whether or not you can get an abortion, 123 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: Like how do you decide if someone's been raped or not? 124 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: And so these things do really have very real world implications. 125 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 3: And I think they get at this. 126 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: Idea that we don't really understand trauma and how it 127 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: impacts people and how people experience terrible things. 128 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 129 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 4: I mean our common understanding of this subject is like, yeah, 130 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 4: why didn't she leave or why didn't she scream? 131 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think actually one thing that I thought 132 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: was so interesting in the research about why women stay 133 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: is that a lot of the reasons have to do 134 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: with trauma bonding, which is this thing we talk about 135 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: very colloquially now, like I feel like everyone I know 136 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: it's like I went to work with this person and 137 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: now we're trauma bonding, and like that's I think just 138 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: like a very interesting thing that these things seep into 139 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: the culture and then get kind of reduced, because what 140 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: trauma bonding actually means is that when you're in an 141 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: abusive relationship, that cycle of abuse, the sort of like 142 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: tearrible thing that happens, actually draws you closer to the abuser. 143 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: There's this like bond that's created because the way your 144 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: brain sort of processes having this terrible moment and then 145 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: all of this seduction afterwards that's trying to convince you 146 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: that that moment was like not that important, actually bonds 147 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: you to your abuser. 148 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 4: And to basically correct everyone on TikTok, actually I wanted 149 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 4: to ask you, Suz, so you've done all this research 150 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 4: into this, and when you were researching Robin, what are 151 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 4: the actual reasons that she and others have given for 152 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 4: why they did stay. 153 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: Well, so there's some general reasons that we kind of 154 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: just have a better understanding of now, and then I'll 155 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: get into sort of what she has said about her 156 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: personal situation. But look, I think for a lot of 157 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: women there are financial reasons. A lot of men, especially 158 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: if they have children, rely on their partner for their 159 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: financial means and for taking care of their children. There's 160 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: also a lot of issues around children. If you leave 161 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: your spouse and he is abusive to you, that doesn't 162 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: necessarily mean that you will get custody because it will 163 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: be seen as you having abandoned your children, or you 164 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: don't want to leave your children with an abuser. 165 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 3: That's like a very obvious one. 166 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: I think there's also a lot of shame, right. I 167 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: think a lot of women, and Robin has talked about this, 168 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: don't want to admit to anyone what's happening. So if 169 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: they don't admit what's happening, how are they going to 170 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: explain or get help or the necessary kind of resources 171 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: they need. And most abusers have spent a lot of 172 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: time isolating their victims even before the physical abuse begins, 173 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: so often they don't have resources or friends or family 174 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: anymore they can rely on. 175 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 3: They're sort of in an isolated position. Got it. 176 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: But I think the most interesting thing I learned is 177 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: that actually it's also extremely dangerous to leave your abuser. 178 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: It's the most likely time where a homicide occurs in 179 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: an abusive relationship because so much has left either right 180 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: before a person leaves and they're sort of declaring that 181 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: they're going to leave or right after, because what the 182 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: whole abuse is about is control, and so when the 183 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: abuser starts to feel like they might lose control, that 184 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: is an extremely dangerous period in the relationship. In fact, 185 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: there was a study where they interviewed men who'd killed 186 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: their wives, and either threats of separating or actual separations 187 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: were most often the precipitating events that led to those homicides. 188 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: So we know that it's extremely dangerous for women to 189 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: leave and also extremely dangerous. 190 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 3: For their loved ones. 191 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: There's also many cases where the abuser, when they no 192 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: longer have access to the victim, actually kills other people 193 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: in their lives, friends, family, et cetera, who they feel 194 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: are helping them escape. 195 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: So these are the reasons. 196 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: Experts sort of say, there's lots of reasons, but these 197 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: are the general ones that are mo off incited. And 198 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: then Robin Gibbons has herself talked a lot about the 199 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: fact that she really felt this bond, this probably what 200 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: would be defined now as a trauma bond with Mike Tyson. 201 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: She really felt like she could save him, She felt 202 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: protective at him, like every time one of these incidents 203 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: would occur, it would terrify her. But then he would 204 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: be so immediately remorseful and sad and really say to 205 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: her like I'm broken, and she would want to fix him. 206 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's easy from the cheap 207 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: seats to be like, well, what do you still love 208 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: about someone who's hurting you? But you know you are 209 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: deeply in love with someone they don't you know. It's 210 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: not just like some stranger who's abusing you. This is 211 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: someone you have a relationship with, you feel an incredible 212 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: tie to. 213 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: And who is sick and who is sick? 214 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: Right who you see as ill? So you're like, you know, 215 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of ways that you can rationalize that, right, 216 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: Like you wouldn't leave someone who was sick. In another way, 217 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: why would you leave this person. It's a really complicated relationship. 218 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: And she actually talked to Oprah about it at some point. 219 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: So Robin Gibbs went on Oprah when she wrote her 220 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: book in two thousand and seven, and she said, you know, 221 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: I felt like I had a purpose. I really felt 222 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: like I had to protect him and love him and 223 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: convince him that the world could be an okay place. 224 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: What's fascinating is he's physically hurting her, Like there's really 225 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: harrowing passages in the book, in her memoir where she's 226 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: describing him holding a knife to her throat or him 227 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 1: chasing her around, like there's like definitely some sexual assault. 228 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: But what she says about it is that she wanted 229 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: to take his hurt and his pain away. Oh wow, right, 230 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: because I think it's hard to separate yourself. 231 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 3: From that person in some ways. 232 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: And she finally leaves, not because she has fallen out 233 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: of love with him, or even that she stops talking 234 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: to him or seeing him, because she does continue to 235 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: have a relationship with him even after they start going 236 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: through this very nasty public divorce. She says she leaves 237 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: because her family. She sees what it's doing to her 238 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: mom and her sister, right, and so she's like, I 239 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: can't continue to do this to them. And I think 240 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: that's just. 241 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 3: Like a human response. But we don't want our. 242 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: Victims to be human, we want them to be perfect, right, 243 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: And Rob is this like very composed, beautiful, smart woman. 244 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: She's not what we imagine when we imagine a victim. 245 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 4: Oh, it's so interesting because it's in her case, it 246 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 4: was like maybe she was too beautiful and too composed, 247 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 4: But then in other scenarios we want them to be 248 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 4: more composed, like they're not composed enough, or it's making 249 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 4: me think of the Amber Heard and Johnny dep trial, 250 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 4: which you know, whatever you think about that. There were 251 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,119 Speaker 4: many questions around her behavior, and actually it was fascinating 252 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 4: talking to Egen caroll On to her lawyers about this 253 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 4: too when I was covering that case, because the question 254 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 4: of like do you cry on the stand? 255 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: Is it too much or too little? 256 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 1: Do you want to. 257 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 4: Look put together and composed or do you want to 258 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 4: look a little disheveled like you've been hurt, And like 259 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 4: how you present yourself all these tiny details from your 260 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 4: hair to the way you're sitting, to how much you cry, 261 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 4: to does your voice crack. 262 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: It's almost like you have to perform, especially if you're 263 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: on the stand. 264 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: I mean, right, but that's so crazy because you're like 265 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: a victim of trauma. You're actually going through this like 266 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: traumatic experience. Testifying is a traumatic experience. So then to 267 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: think like I can't even imagine what it must be 268 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: like to be on display like that, and then also 269 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: worry about every tiny facial movement or. 270 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 4: Just like how you're betraying to see too, because it's like, 271 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 4: where would I have gotten the idea of what a 272 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 4: good victim looks like? 273 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's not something that I have thought 274 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: much about. 275 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 4: But you're sitting there in the courtroom and you're like, oh, 276 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 4: is that believable? 277 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: Right? Like I think we think there's a common sense 278 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: reaction to terrible things happening to you. And like, as 279 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: someone who's gone through enormous grief my dad died when 280 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: I was young. One thing that I have really seen 281 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: a lot in my friends who are going through grief 282 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: is they feel really guilty if they're grieving in. 283 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 3: A certain way or not grieving in a certain way. 284 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: And one thing I can tell you is there is 285 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: no normal response to grief, Like sometimes the only response 286 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 1: is laughing. Sometimes the response is silence or shutting down, 287 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: and even that is often judged, Like when people lose 288 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: people in a public way, there's often this question of 289 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: like why are they so numb or why. 290 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 3: Are they crying? 291 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 4: Laughing Laughing is a really big that came up in 292 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 4: this trial as well, where she laughed at different points 293 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 4: and she would joke about it and that was sort 294 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 4: of her way of making sense of it and trying 295 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 4: to show to herself that it hadn't broken her. 296 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: Right, It's a coping mechanism exactly. 297 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 4: But it's weird people don't understand it. And so to 298 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 4: the original point, I mean, I do think that we 299 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,119 Speaker 4: may have some better. 300 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: Understanding of trauma now. 301 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 4: Like when this trauma expert got up on the stand 302 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 4: in this case, you could hear her describe how just 303 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 4: like you said, almost any response is an okay response 304 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 4: to something terrible happening, because people react in all sorts 305 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 4: of crazy ways. So the idea of asking why did 306 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 4: or didn't she do X is just a misnomer. 307 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I have to say I was 308 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: really trying to think about how I came to have 309 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: these ideas about how people were supposed to react, but 310 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: also how I've. 311 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 3: Come to unlearn them. 312 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I have to say that I genuinely think 313 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: this is going to sound a little out there, but 314 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: I genuinely think Law and Order SVU has changed the 315 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: culture on. 316 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: A lot of this time. 317 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: That's so interesting, Like, so much of what I've learned 318 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: from that show is this idea that people react in 319 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: all sorts of different ways, like One of the things 320 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: I remember learning from that show when I was quite 321 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: young was that often people who are sexually assaulted will 322 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: continue to maintain some sort of contact with their abuser, 323 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: and that that's always used as an example of how 324 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: they weren't abused, but that that is actually just a 325 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: mechanism by which they're trying to keep things normal and 326 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: gain control of the. 327 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: Situation or feel like it's not as bad as it is. 328 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that. 329 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: So there's like lots of ways in which I think 330 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: that show has. 331 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: Actually met I think you're so right, and so I. 332 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: Think we are just like as a culture, trying to 333 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: get a better understanding of these issues. But the fact 334 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: that that happened in Adrian Carroll, I mean, in that 335 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: piece you had so many quotes from judges and other 336 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: people asking these wild ask questions. 337 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: Well, this is the thing, I mean. 338 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 4: And you know, arguably, the more stories like this that 339 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 4: we write and the more we talk about this, the 340 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 4: more it normalizes that this idea that you can respond 341 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 4: in all sorts of different ways and actually stigmatizes the 342 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 4: idea that you would ask someone why they scream. So 343 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 4: I looked back at all these cases over time and 344 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 4: things like all right, there was a nineteen eighty three 345 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: case of a woman, Cheryl Royo, who was gang raped, 346 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 4: and the attorney questioning her in that case said, well, 347 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 4: if you're living with a man, she had a partner, 348 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 4: what are you doing running around the streets getting raped? 349 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: Like that's insane? 350 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: Obviously, wasn't there that judge who was like, why didn't 351 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: you just like lock your knees. 352 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 4: There's also like in the brock Turner case, which was 353 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 4: one the woman who was sexually assaulted in twenty fifteen 354 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 4: at Stanford a college student, and the attorney asked, well, 355 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 4: you did a lot of partying in college, right, like 356 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 4: as if to equate that right. 357 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: And there was that crazy incident on Santa and where 358 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: Don Lemon asked one of Bill Cosby's rape accusers why 359 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: she didn't just like bite down on his penis like 360 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: there's just this wild cultural thing that hasn't shifted as 361 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: much as we'd like. 362 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 4: But yes, and the end, it's almost like often when 363 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 4: these cases go to trial, which is when a lot 364 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 4: of these questions occur, at least said out loud, either 365 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 4: we may have stopped following or you're not getting the 366 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 4: trial transcripts, or you're not in the room, so you're 367 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 4: not actually hearing these questions asked. But even like in 368 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 4: the Weinstein case, the Harvey Weinstein case, his attorney asked 369 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 4: one of his victims who was raped in a hotel 370 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 4: room in twenty thirteen, well, why'd you stay in the 371 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 4: room where you were attacked after you allege this occurred? 372 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 4: And it's the same kind of thing. It's like, yes, 373 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 4: sometimes you will maintain some relationship to the person, sometimes 374 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 4: they stay in the room. 375 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: Well, sometimes you're just in shock, like you're not quite 376 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: ready to like move, or you're afraid. It's just a 377 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,479 Speaker 1: reminder that even. 378 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: You know, there is no perfect victim. 379 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: And you know, if you've gone through something or you're 380 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: going through a traumatic experience, you do not need to 381 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: feel all this expectation for how you should be. You 382 00:17:49,760 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: get to process things the way you process them. 383 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 384 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about 385 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,719 Speaker 1: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email 386 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find us 387 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: on Instagram at in retropod. 388 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 4: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 389 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 4: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 390 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 4: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 391 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 4: which we may or may not delete. 392 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 393 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: and at susib NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist 394 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: Fight Club and This Is eighteen. 395 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 4: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 396 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 4: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 397 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 4: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attiya is our researcher and 398 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 4: associate producer. 399 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,959 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 400 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norvell. 401 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: Our artwork is from Pentagram. 402 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Cosparelli, Sound 403 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. 404 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 3: We are your hosts Susie Bannacarum. 405 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 4: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. For even more, 406 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 4: check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.