Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the other side of this election. I
Speaker 1: don't know about you, but, boy, since Joe Biden and
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris were elected, I've gotten so many texts and
Speaker 1: emails and phone calls that are full of joy and
Speaker 1: hope and just good old fashioned relief. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot to try to figure out about this election.
Speaker 1: Who turned out in record numbers, where what they had
Speaker 1: to overcome to do that, really what all of it
Speaker 1: means for our president elect and for our democracy. So
Speaker 1: for help trying to figure it out, I'm checking in
Speaker 1: with three fantastic guests today. We have Ari Berman, a
Speaker 1: journalist who has written extensively about voting rights and voter
Speaker 1: suppression in this country. We'll also here from journalists Solida O'Brien,
Speaker 1: who has a really focused view of what the press
Speaker 1: has to do better in order to cover politics and elections.
Speaker 1: But first, I wanted to check in with someone who's
Speaker 1: getting a lot of much deserved gratitude right now for
Speaker 1: her role in Georgia, Stacy Abrams. You may remember that
Speaker 1: Stacy ran for governor in eighteen. I think it's absolutely
Speaker 1: fair to say that the election was taken from her
Speaker 1: because of all the shenanigans to prevent people from registering,
Speaker 1: prevent them from voting, make voting really difficult. But she
Speaker 1: never quit. She just went back to work organizing and
Speaker 1: speaking out about what needs to be done to help
Speaker 1: our democracy thrive. And while we saw it in action
Speaker 1: as Georgia turned blue, I just want to add my
Speaker 1: voice to the chorus and say thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, not just for coming back on the podcast
Speaker 1: post election, but for everything you did to help Georgia
Speaker 1: turn blue and help so many people across the country
Speaker 1: have the energy to keep going. So on a scale
Speaker 1: of like one to ten, Stacy, how excited are you,
Speaker 1: I believe infinity is a number technically. I mean, look this,
Speaker 1: this is extraordinary. It's as you know, it's been a
Speaker 1: project I've been working on for a decade with so
Speaker 1: many other folks, really trying to build an infrastructure, raise
Speaker 1: the resources, and make certain that people did the investment.
Speaker 1: We have been able to finally bring all those pieces together.
Speaker 1: And I do not believe there's a new Americal scale. Hallellujah,
Speaker 1: exactly Hallelujah. When I think about the work that went
Speaker 1: into it, I have to just pause and say, this
Speaker 1: was truly an act of faith. You believed in the
Speaker 1: potential for George to have an election that would empower
Speaker 1: people to vote, that would give them a stake in
Speaker 1: their vote, and it's so exciting to see all that
Speaker 1: hard work pay off. What were some of the reasons
Speaker 1: why decades ago you started thinking about this and then
Speaker 1: you know, moving forward made it a real priority. Well,
Speaker 1: as you know, I am a daughter of the South.
Speaker 1: I was born in Wisconsin, but I grew up in Mississippi.
Speaker 1: I came of age in Georgia. I went to grad
Speaker 1: school in Texas, went to law school at our alma
Speaker 1: mater in the northeast at Yale. I came back South
Speaker 1: as soon as seemingly possible because I don't like cold weather.
Speaker 1: And when I got back to Georgia, we were going
Speaker 1: through both of political realignment with Republicans taking over, but
Speaker 1: we were also going through a demographic realignment that was
Speaker 1: just taking off. And by the time I joined the
Speaker 1: legislature in two thousand and six, when I became leader
Speaker 1: in I was deeply aware of the possibilities but also
Speaker 1: the obstacle. And so I actually put together a twenty
Speaker 1: one page deck when I became leader, where I laid out,
Speaker 1: here's the growth strategy for Georgia Democrats from and I
Speaker 1: would take that deck with me, and I paid for
Speaker 1: my plane ticket and went to see investors around the
Speaker 1: country who weren't going to give us no money. But
Speaker 1: I'm like, look, you're not gonna give me anything now,
Speaker 1: but I want to introduce myself and tell you about
Speaker 1: my plan. So when I come back, you'll do it.
Speaker 1: And I did it again and again, and and I
Speaker 1: want to give credit to so many other people who
Speaker 1: did this work. I think that the distinction was that
Speaker 1: for me, it was about thinking about how do you
Speaker 1: build the infrastructure. So it didn't matter who the candidate was,
Speaker 1: It didn't matter who was doing the work, as long
Speaker 1: as there was a structure so people could pour in
Speaker 1: and we had the money we needed. And so over
Speaker 1: time we were able to raise millions of dollars. And
Speaker 1: I've become a really good beggar, and we've been able
Speaker 1: to raise money for voter registration, for voter engagement, for
Speaker 1: voter turnout, but also training and recruiting young people to
Speaker 1: become involved in the party, building policy potential, thinking about
Speaker 1: the holistic notion of what it means to be a Democrat,
Speaker 1: not just winning elections, but how do you win hearts, minds,
Speaker 1: and how do you build sustainability. So it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: who's doing it, all of us are moving in the
Speaker 1: same direction, and it came to fruition in this election.
Speaker 1: But we can't forget that George has got two really
Speaker 1: important consequential Senate races coming up. They've gone to a runoff,
Speaker 1: and this election will be held in January, and actually
Speaker 1: it's going to determine whether President elect Biden will as
Speaker 1: president have a majority in the Senate so that they
Speaker 1: can get things done that will actually improve people's lives.
Speaker 1: Tell us about those two races. What can our listeners
Speaker 1: do to help the candidates win. Be part of continuing
Speaker 1: the Georgia movement that works so well in the presidential
Speaker 1: election and actually helped to propel both of our candidates
Speaker 1: into a runoff. I privileged to be friends with both candidates.
Speaker 1: John Assoff, who is in the race against David Purdue,
Speaker 1: who has just proven himself to be corrupt both intellectually
Speaker 1: and economically, someone who put his profits above the lives
Speaker 1: of people. Q and on Kelly Leffler, who has decided
Speaker 1: to abandon all principles and side with conspiracy theorists, and
Speaker 1: who also decided that money was more important than the
Speaker 1: mission she was supposed to have, which is serving Georgians.
Speaker 1: She is running against Raffael Warnock, the pastor of ebenez
Speaker 1: Or Baptist Church. Reverend Warnock and I've been friends for
Speaker 1: fifteen years and he was actually one of my partners
Speaker 1: in the New Georgia product when we started registering voters.
Speaker 1: Those two races are both essential in their own right,
Speaker 1: and they are working together, which is so critical. So
Speaker 1: the three things that need folks to do. One go
Speaker 1: to g a Senate dot Com. That way you can
Speaker 1: contribute to both candidates and to the work we're doing.
Speaker 1: The Fair Fight to protect the vote. Republicans noticed that
Speaker 1: we had an incredible infrastructure for oor turn out and
Speaker 1: for getting those ballots in. I have no reason to
Speaker 1: believe they're going to let it continue the way it is,
Speaker 1: so we need the resources so we can fight back
Speaker 1: and protect the right to vote. Number two to fair
Speaker 1: Fight Action dot Com, you can sign up to be
Speaker 1: a volunteer. We will help deploy you and direct you. Yes,
Speaker 1: we need everyone's help. Not everyone needs to come to Georgia,
Speaker 1: but everyone needs to pour into Georgia, and so we'll
Speaker 1: be able to connect you to volunteer opportunities. And the
Speaker 1: number three, reach out to anyone you know who is
Speaker 1: in Georgia, near Georgia, bin to Georgia, can spell Georgia
Speaker 1: and just let them know how important is election is.
Speaker 1: We have the chance to fix America. Yeah, just a small,
Speaker 1: you know, step in the development of mankind and womankind.
Speaker 1: We can fix Georgia. We can fix and we can
Speaker 1: fix America. Look, we can have access to healthcare, access
Speaker 1: to justice, and access to jobs. Those are the three
Speaker 1: things that are most essential. These are the two men
Speaker 1: who will get it done if we do our part
Speaker 1: and we don't relax, we don't relent, and we do
Speaker 1: everything we can to push them over the finish line.
Speaker 1: On January, Well, I think all of us are going
Speaker 1: to be following your lead once again, because we have,
Speaker 1: you know, a few short weeks to try to continue
Speaker 1: this positive movement that Georgia has demonstrated. You know, Stacy,
Speaker 1: I know how busy you are you've been, you know,
Speaker 1: rallying the troops, thanking people for everything that they've done.
Speaker 1: Have you had a minute just to sit back and
Speaker 1: take it in, put your feet up, relax at all?
Speaker 1: I think I have like fourteen minutes on Sunday. But look,
Speaker 1: we got some work to do. We got work to do.
Speaker 1: You're a woman after my own heart. Stacy Abrahams love
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you for everything. Thank you, Secretary.
Speaker 1: As we heard from Stacy, our works not done yet,
Speaker 1: and all eyes are on Georgia. So if you want
Speaker 1: to pitch in visit elect John that's j O N
Speaker 1: dot com. That's j o N dot com. And Warnock
Speaker 1: for Georgia dot com. That's Warnock w A R N
Speaker 1: O c K. You've probably seen Ari Berman on MSNBC,
Speaker 1: or maybe you've heard his voice on NPR or read
Speaker 1: his writings and Mother Jones and other publications, because he
Speaker 1: is a senior reporter for Mother Jones and the author
Speaker 1: of the book Give Us the Ballot, The Modern Struggle
Speaker 1: for Voting Rights in America. Ari Berman, Hey, Secretary Clinton,
Speaker 1: good to see you. I am so happy to speak
Speaker 1: with you. You may not be a household name in
Speaker 1: many households in America, but you are in mine, and
Speaker 1: I want our listeners to know that you have been
Speaker 1: on the front lines of journalism about our elections and
Speaker 1: b pticularly about the challenges to voting, voter suppression tricks
Speaker 1: and Shenanigan's to keep people from voting, and you have
Speaker 1: a unique position from which to view what we have
Speaker 1: just experienced. And when I thought about who I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to after the election, your name was at
Speaker 1: the top of the list. How how have you spent
Speaker 1: the past week since the election? You know, it feels
Speaker 1: like just yesterday but also a lifetime ago. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you so much, Secretary Clinton. And it's a real honor
Speaker 1: to be able to have this conversation with you, especially now.
Speaker 1: And when I think of the people that I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to after the election, you are at the
Speaker 1: top of my list. So I'm really glad that we
Speaker 1: got to do this. So, I mean, on the one hand,
Speaker 1: it was a really chaotic and to the election, but
Speaker 1: on the other hand, it was a really successful and
Speaker 1: to the election when you think about it, because there
Speaker 1: were unprecedented threats to voting in this election. There were
Speaker 1: so many questions about would people be able to vote,
Speaker 1: would their votes be counted, And we saw that people
Speaker 1: turned out in record numbers, that their votes were counted.
Speaker 1: That yes, it took a few days too for all
Speaker 1: the votes to be counted, and some of the votes
Speaker 1: are still being counted. But the process worked, The system worked.
Speaker 1: It was a legitimate election that people came out, they voted,
Speaker 1: their votes were counted, and ultimately they changed the direction
Speaker 1: of this country. And so I know there's a lot
Speaker 1: of disinformation, there's a lot of noise, but from my standpoint,
Speaker 1: there were so many nightmare scenarios that I had about
Speaker 1: how this election played out, and for it to be
Speaker 1: basically over by Saturday morning was, from my standpoint, a
Speaker 1: huge success. I agree with that, Ari, and a couple
Speaker 1: of my takeaways that I wanted to run by you
Speaker 1: are that the election itself worked in part because people
Speaker 1: actually got to cast their votes. The kind of suppression
Speaker 1: tactic that we saw a lot of in twenty eighteen
Speaker 1: where people were literally disenfranchised, you know, they were not
Speaker 1: allowed to register. They were allowed to register, but then
Speaker 1: when they showed up, they were turned away because of
Speaker 1: you know, some alleged problem with their I d and
Speaker 1: I think we learned a lot from eighteen and we
Speaker 1: also were advantaged by having democratic office holders, for example
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin and Michigan, and bright spotlights on the office
Speaker 1: holders in Georgia and Arizona. So we learned that pre
Speaker 1: voting suppression is actually a more terrible successful tactic than
Speaker 1: trying to mess with the actual votes. And I'm really
Speaker 1: encouraged by that. Yeah, I think they're absolutely right. I mean,
Speaker 1: one of the things that happened in when you were
Speaker 1: running was a lot of the suppression was in back
Speaker 1: rooms and people didn't know about it. So it was
Speaker 1: the first presidential election fifty years without the full protections
Speaker 1: of the Voting Rights Act. Because the Supreme Court got
Speaker 1: to the Voting Rights Act into thirteen, it said that
Speaker 1: states of the long history of discrimination didn't have to
Speaker 1: approve their voting changes with the federal government. So that
Speaker 1: allowed new suppression efforts in the South and the West,
Speaker 1: and then you had states in the north like Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: passing new suppression efforts as well. But it didn't really
Speaker 1: get any coverage, and it was such a different story
Speaker 1: in I can't tell you the number of people that
Speaker 1: told me the day after the election, I finally understand
Speaker 1: what you're writing about exactly. And I think there really
Speaker 1: was a realization we're not going to allow history to
Speaker 1: repeat itself. And then the fact that Trump was so
Speaker 1: open about what he was doing, the fact that he said,
Speaker 1: if you made it easier to vote, a Republican would
Speaker 1: never be elected again. The fact that he said he
Speaker 1: didn't want to fund the Post Office because he didn't
Speaker 1: want to expand mail voting, the fact that he said
Speaker 1: we're going to send the lawyers in right after the election.
Speaker 1: All of that made people aware there's an attempt to
Speaker 1: try to prevent you from voting, so do everything you can,
Speaker 1: everything you absolutely can to make sure your vote is counted.
Speaker 1: So we had the kind of movement against suppression in
Speaker 1: that was missing. Unfortunately. You know, I know we don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of data yet. I've been searching for
Speaker 1: it myself. But do you have some preliminary information about
Speaker 1: how the vote broke down, who turned out, where they
Speaker 1: turned out, anything you can share with us. Well, I
Speaker 1: think George is a great example. I mean, it seemed
Speaker 1: like black voters in Georgia really propelled Joe Biden into
Speaker 1: what looks like a likely victory in that state. And
Speaker 1: I'm really glad you brought that up because there was
Speaker 1: so much suppression in Georgia, where you actually had the
Speaker 1: Secretary of State Brian kept also running for government and
Speaker 1: putting in place all of these policies, whether it's making
Speaker 1: it more difficult to vote, or closing polling places or
Speaker 1: falsely accusing Democrats of hacking the election that really kept
Speaker 1: Stacy Abrams from being the first black woman governor in
Speaker 1: US history. Then you had the primaries in Georgia back
Speaker 1: in June where people were still voting at twelve thirty
Speaker 1: am at night. And I think the pandemic really exposed
Speaker 1: a lot of this suppression. Because you're right, it got
Speaker 1: a little bit of attention in it got more mention.
Speaker 1: But I think the fact that you saw those lines
Speaker 1: in Milwaukee in April, when there were only five polling
Speaker 1: places instead of eighty, and you had people holding signs
Speaker 1: in line, that says this is ridiculous. People were so
Speaker 1: much more aware of the problems with our voting system
Speaker 1: and so they were willing to wait in eleven hour
Speaker 1: lines to be able to vote. They dropped their ballots
Speaker 1: off because they didn't trust the post office. They turned
Speaker 1: out on record numbers early, so there wouldn't be problems
Speaker 1: on election day. And I think all of that, the
Speaker 1: fact that there were so many organizations helping people vote,
Speaker 1: but also that voters themselves really listened and made a plan.
Speaker 1: When Michelle Obama said make a plan, people made a plan.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why we had, in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways, a more successful election than some of us
Speaker 1: were maybe preparing for. You know, a lot of political analysis,
Speaker 1: frankly endless political analysis and journalistic reporting, you know, focused
Speaker 1: on the white working class. That's the demographic that so
Speaker 1: many people after the election and we're trying to understand
Speaker 1: and trying to, you know, give a voice to But
Speaker 1: if you look at what happened in Wisconsin and Michigan
Speaker 1: and Pennsylvania, it was the black community that turned out
Speaker 1: that wasn't suppressed the way that it had been in sixteen.
Speaker 1: They really overcame what had been real barriers. And I
Speaker 1: think you know, you have written about that how they
Speaker 1: helped Biden win Wisconsin, and also I would argue Michigan
Speaker 1: and Pennsylvania. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, Biden didn't
Speaker 1: win because of white voters. If if this election was
Speaker 1: the side of my people like you and me, Donald
Speaker 1: Trump would have had a second term. And so it
Speaker 1: absolutely was Black voters in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan. It was
Speaker 1: Latino voters in Nevada and Arizona. It was Native American
Speaker 1: voters in Arizona. I mean, these are the groups that
Speaker 1: turned out in record numbers and turned out for Joe Biden.
Speaker 1: A lot of people learned from I mean, take Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: There was really no organizing going on in the black
Speaker 1: community in Milwaukee in to try to help people vote.
Speaker 1: There just wasn't the kind of energy on the ground
Speaker 1: in terms of organizing. And I think people realize, we
Speaker 1: can't let this happen again. We have to invest in
Speaker 1: these communities if we want to have the kind of
Speaker 1: turnout we need. And so there was a lot more
Speaker 1: resources invested and a lot more community groups working in
Speaker 1: places like Milwaukee. People were very, very resilient that that
Speaker 1: was not going to happen again, that the votes that
Speaker 1: were being targeted for suppression ended up being the votes
Speaker 1: that made the difference for Joe Biden in this election.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. You know, I loved your tweet
Speaker 1: on November the six where you said black voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia,
Speaker 1: and Latino voters in Arizona, Nevada ended the Trump presidency.
Speaker 1: Muslim and Arab voters also made a big difference in
Speaker 1: states like Michigan, Georgia, and Arizona. You're the first person
Speaker 1: that I saw say that. Can you explain it? Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about all these different demographics. And there
Speaker 1: was so much attention on the white working class vote
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of the election, even into the run
Speaker 1: up of the whole question was you know what what
Speaker 1: you another guy in a mega hat? I mean really,
Speaker 1: I mean the New York Times did a story about
Speaker 1: white voters in suburban Atlanta, and they were actually quoting
Speaker 1: officials from the Republican Party as those white voters. And
Speaker 1: now they weren't spending any time talking to Muslim and
Speaker 1: Air voters in Dearborn, Michigan, or talking to Native American
Speaker 1: voters in Navajo Nation, or talking to black voters in Milwaukee.
Speaker 1: And these are the people that made the difference. These
Speaker 1: are also a lot of the communities that have been
Speaker 1: hit hardest by COVID and so just to think about
Speaker 1: you know, Navajo Nation, which voted for Joe Biden, the
Speaker 1: the amount of death and hardship that's happened there, And
Speaker 1: I really think for these unees it really was life
Speaker 1: and death. I think for some people it was just
Speaker 1: an election, but for others it was life and death.
Speaker 1: And I think the stakes were raised for the communities
Speaker 1: that were targeted by suppression, that were hit hardest by COVID,
Speaker 1: that have had their economies decimated, the election meant more
Speaker 1: to them. And I think there's a reason why they
Speaker 1: turned out in such high numbers, and I think there's
Speaker 1: a reason why they made such a big difference in
Speaker 1: the outcome. I want to ask you about the path
Speaker 1: ahead because you started using the term a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago in your writing about the Roberts Court gutting
Speaker 1: the Voting Rights Act, the unleashing of voter suppression tactics
Speaker 1: in a lot of states following that, and describing the
Speaker 1: people who were trying to turn the clock back as
Speaker 1: counter revolutionaries. That has always stuck with me, Ari, because
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people understandably are slowly looking
Speaker 1: at what happened with the Voting Rights Act being gutted.
Speaker 1: With Citizens United, I was also the first candidate to
Speaker 1: run with since united in full force, and how much
Speaker 1: more work it takes to overcome a counter revolution. Can
Speaker 1: you say a little bit about your perception of where
Speaker 1: we are right now with the forces that are not
Speaker 1: going to sit silently by. They are persistent, if nothing else.
Speaker 1: Lindsey Graham, who I don't know what's happened to him, said,
Speaker 1: you know just the other day that you know, if
Speaker 1: if people keep voting, Republicans will never win. I mean,
Speaker 1: what an admission of exactly what they're afraid of. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't think we should believe that because people turned out
Speaker 1: in record numbers these barriers didn't exist. I mean, people
Speaker 1: turned out despite the fact the Voting Rights Act was
Speaker 1: got it. People turned out despite the fact that the
Speaker 1: Post office was sabotage. People turned out despite the fact
Speaker 1: that polling places were closed and people were turned away
Speaker 1: from the voting roles and they had to wait eleven
Speaker 1: hours to vote. I mean, people overcame these barriers, but
Speaker 1: it took a massive, massive effort to overcome them, and
Speaker 1: we still have those counter revolutionaries that are opposed to
Speaker 1: voting rights in some very powerful positions. We now not
Speaker 1: only have a five to four court, we have a
Speaker 1: six to three chord that leads to the right. And
Speaker 1: so that is not good news for voting rights and
Speaker 1: that is going to be a very very difficult thing
Speaker 1: to navigate going forward. And I'm very concerned that they're
Speaker 1: going to further weaken the Voting Rights Act and they're
Speaker 1: going to further chip away at our democracy. As of now,
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell is still in control of the Senate. That
Speaker 1: is going to make it very difficult to pass legislation
Speaker 1: to restore the Voting Rights Act or to make it
Speaker 1: easier to vote. Republicans are still in control at the
Speaker 1: state level of states like Wisconsin, of states like Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: Some of these states have democratic governors. Some places like
Speaker 1: Texas and Florida do not. They have one party control
Speaker 1: heading into redistricting one which means they could draw even
Speaker 1: more egregious maps for the next decade. So the fight
Speaker 1: for democracy is not over. I really really think this
Speaker 1: is important that people not get complacent just because Joe
Speaker 1: Biden one that is one very very very important accomplishment.
Speaker 1: I mean, Joe Biden may have literally saved American democracy
Speaker 1: by becoming elected president, because who knows what would have
Speaker 1: happened under four more years of Donald Trump. He doesn't
Speaker 1: control the Supreme Court, he doesn't control the U. S. Senate,
Speaker 1: he doesn't control many of the states, or his allies
Speaker 1: don't control many of the states. And so all of
Speaker 1: those threats of democracy still exist, and we shouldn't ignore
Speaker 1: them just because Biden was elected. I already worry that
Speaker 1: we're having the totally wrong conversation after the election, because
Speaker 1: we're already in this place where Republicans are talking over
Speaker 1: and over about massive irregularities, and then now people are
Speaker 1: trying to say, disprove them right, and and it's almost
Speaker 1: like you're trying to disprove something that doesn't exist, as
Speaker 1: opposed to saying, this was not an election that we
Speaker 1: should repeat, we should not exactly again, we should not
Speaker 1: have these kind of barriers in front of voters again.
Speaker 1: And what are we doing to make sure that these
Speaker 1: barriers don't exist? And and I worry that all of
Speaker 1: this talk of de legitimizing the election all it's not
Speaker 1: going to change the outcome, and it's not going to
Speaker 1: prevent Biden from being elected. I do worry it's going
Speaker 1: to lead Republicans to double down on the voter suppression
Speaker 1: effort based on falsehoods and imaginary conspiracy theories. But they're
Speaker 1: going to convince themselves. Either they're gonna believe it, or
Speaker 1: they're going to be political opportunists, and they're gonna say,
Speaker 1: look at all the irregularities in Detroit or Milwaukee or Philly,
Speaker 1: and because of that, we have to institute even more
Speaker 1: barriers to prevent people from voting, as opposed to tearing
Speaker 1: those barriers down. It's so ridiculous. We've done study after
Speaker 1: study and by conservative, by liberal, by right, by left,
Speaker 1: by all kinds of think tanks, and there is very
Speaker 1: little fraud when it comes to the voter. I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of fraud when it comes to the
Speaker 1: people setting up the elections and running them, as we
Speaker 1: have unfortunately seen. But I take exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 1: You know, it will be difficult for a President Biden
Speaker 1: to do much from the national level, with Mitch McConnell still,
Speaker 1: you know, standing in the way of everything that needs
Speaker 1: to be done, and it will be quite a challenge
Speaker 1: to get the Supreme Court to care about any of
Speaker 1: these issues. So I think we're going to have to
Speaker 1: have a state and local bottoms up kind of strategy,
Speaker 1: similar to the litigation that Mark Elias and others have
Speaker 1: been bringing to try to, you know, get into state courts,
Speaker 1: get into state constitutions, get into state laws, try to
Speaker 1: fix the you know, the problems at the state and
Speaker 1: local level. Do you agree with that? I do agree
Speaker 1: with that, and I think there are some states that
Speaker 1: are are really positive models. You look at Virginia, for example,
Speaker 1: when Democrats finally got control of both the governorship and
Speaker 1: the legislature of Virginia, they very very rapidly instituted policies
Speaker 1: that made it easier to vote. So Virginia had forty
Speaker 1: five days of early voting this year. For example, they
Speaker 1: got rid of the need to have a witness signature
Speaker 1: on your absolute ballot, which was very confusing to people.
Speaker 1: They repealed the state's photo ide law. They did all
Speaker 1: of these things to make it easier to vote, and
Speaker 1: there is record turn out in Virginia, and voting went
Speaker 1: very smoothly in Virginia. Didn't hear any real problems other
Speaker 1: than long lines, which was due to high turnout at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the election. And so I do think
Speaker 1: that that's really important. And I do think that there's
Speaker 1: going to be some places where we're going to see
Speaker 1: the kind of changes we need. In Michigan, for example,
Speaker 1: they're going to have an independent Registring Commission, so they're
Speaker 1: not gonna have the kind of jerrymandering that you see
Speaker 1: in the past decade. But in states where Republicans are
Speaker 1: in control, this is gonna be a long battle. And
Speaker 1: I think people have to draw the lesson that Stacy
Speaker 1: Abrams did after, which is that just because you lose
Speaker 1: an election, you don't stop organizing. Exactly, Well, I can't
Speaker 1: have a conversation with you without mentioning the electoral college.
Speaker 1: You know, on Thursday November five, two days after the election,
Speaker 1: you wrote truly insane that we're obsessing over votes in
Speaker 1: Georgia when Biden is leading by four million votes nationwide.
Speaker 1: Now that's a refle election about how the electoral college
Speaker 1: distorts our democratic process. Now, even though it's unlikely, do
Speaker 1: you think that there's any chance that we could change
Speaker 1: or even abolish the electoral college so that our elections
Speaker 1: for president reflected our elections for everybody else, the person
Speaker 1: with the most votes. And obviously I take this personally
Speaker 1: becomes the person who's elected. I mean, I would hope.
Speaker 1: So it was really crazy on an election night around
Speaker 1: eleven PM, when everyone was biding their teeth and wondering
Speaker 1: what was going to happen in all of these states.
Speaker 1: Biden pulled ahead in the popular vote, and you just
Speaker 1: knew his lead was going to grow and grow and grow,
Speaker 1: and and because states like California and New York and
Speaker 1: Illinois are becoming even bluer because Democrats are turning out
Speaker 1: even more votes in Texas, you knew that his margin
Speaker 1: was going to be four or five it could be
Speaker 1: six million votes while it's over. And when we spent
Speaker 1: so much time obsessing over polls in the run up
Speaker 1: to the election, it was always clear there was never
Speaker 1: any doubt that Biden was going to win the popular vote,
Speaker 1: just like there was never any doubt that you were
Speaker 1: going to win the popular vote, and your election was
Speaker 1: not a particularly close election if you look at at
Speaker 1: the popular vote, and and same with this election. And
Speaker 1: then this kept going on for days, right where we're
Speaker 1: talking about ten thousand vote margins and states, and we
Speaker 1: were wondering what was going to happen with the latest
Speaker 1: batch of results from Maricopa County when meanwhile, this popular
Speaker 1: vote number went from one million to two million, to
Speaker 1: three million to four million. And so I don't think
Speaker 1: the message from the election it should be, Oh, the
Speaker 1: electoral college works. I don't get rid of it because
Speaker 1: there was still an election that was decided by five
Speaker 1: or six states, and so many votes don't count. And
Speaker 1: so I think the quickest way to get rid of
Speaker 1: the electoral college would be for states to join the
Speaker 1: Interstate Popular Vote Compact, which basically says they will pledge
Speaker 1: their electors to the winner of the popular vote nationwide.
Speaker 1: Because you don't need legislation to do that, you just
Speaker 1: need states to sign on to it. And did in Colorado.
Speaker 1: Just Colorado just did that, exactly, just did that. The
Speaker 1: longer route, obviously, would be a constitutional amendment. It's not
Speaker 1: going to happen. It's not gonna happen any anytime soon.
Speaker 1: But the funny thing is, I don't really understand why
Speaker 1: Republicans are so invested in the electoral college when so
Speaker 1: many of their voters are frozen out too. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're a Republican in California or New York, your
Speaker 1: vote really doesn't matter either when it comes to presidential elections,
Speaker 1: you don't really have any sort of saying. So basically,
Speaker 1: if if you live in thirty five states of the country,
Speaker 1: it's very, very unlikely that a presidential candidate's ever going
Speaker 1: to visit your state. And we had a broader map
Speaker 1: this year in the sense that Georgia wasn't play in Texas,
Speaker 1: was Arizona, but it wasn't a broad map. It was
Speaker 1: still ten states, right, And so I mean, you know
Speaker 1: how it is being in New York. I mean, people
Speaker 1: come here to ask for money, but nobody ever comes
Speaker 1: to ask for our votes. And same with California. Same
Speaker 1: if you live in Texas for the most part. And
Speaker 1: I just think that it's really really difficult to reconcile
Speaker 1: the electoral college with any kind of core democratic principles.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a kind of question about Trump.
Speaker 1: He has done his best and will continue aidan and
Speaker 1: embedded by his allies to undermine the legitimacy of this election.
Speaker 1: What happens if he not only doesn't concede, which I
Speaker 1: don't think he will frankly, but tries to throw all
Speaker 1: kinds of roadblocks into the transition. He already has directed
Speaker 1: his officials not to cooperate with the Biden transition, which
Speaker 1: is a first, because you know, once the election is over,
Speaker 1: you're supposed to start cooperating so the incoming administration can
Speaker 1: get prepared. So what happens He refuses to concede, and
Speaker 1: and then what ari Well, the good news is that
Speaker 1: the president doesn't really have any authority over how votes
Speaker 1: are counted and how votes are certified, so there's really
Speaker 1: not a whole lot he can do except complaint. They're
Speaker 1: filing all of these lawsuits, but they're not really amounting anything.
Speaker 1: There's no evidence it's based on, and all the votes
Speaker 1: have basically already been counted already. So right now we're
Speaker 1: in the process of finishing the vote counts and all
Speaker 1: of these states there there might be a recount in Georgia,
Speaker 1: but nothing's going to take that long. Then those votes
Speaker 1: are going to be certified by state and local authorities
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. Some states it takes a week, some states
Speaker 1: stakes two weeks, some states it takes three weeks. So
Speaker 1: that's gonna happen relatively soon. Then electors are going to
Speaker 1: be pledged in December. December fourteenth is the date that
Speaker 1: electors are pledged, and I'm anticipating everything is going to
Speaker 1: be done by then, because we're not in a Bush
Speaker 1: two thousand situation. This is not a seven vote election.
Speaker 1: The closest state right now is ten thousand votes in Georgia,
Speaker 1: and litigation rarely, if ever, changes a margin that big.
Speaker 1: Then once the electors are are nominated, Congress is going
Speaker 1: to certify that result in early January, and Joe Biden
Speaker 1: is going to be the next president. So I think
Speaker 1: they're trying to slow the process down. And obviously you're
Speaker 1: trying to raise doubts about the process, but Trump doesn't
Speaker 1: actually control any aspect of that process, from the counting
Speaker 1: to the certification to what Congress does. Now, his allies,
Speaker 1: I'm sure are going to raise a state inc but
Speaker 1: I anticipate this process will play out as past processes do.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you know, I mean, other than yourself,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden is probably the most prepared person to ever
Speaker 1: become president. So I mean, even if the Trump campaigns
Speaker 1: not cooperating with them, I'm pretty sure they know what
Speaker 1: to do in terms of a presidential transition, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: I agree right either way that he's going to be
Speaker 1: prepared to become president on January. Do you have any
Speaker 1: you know, final words about what you think listeners should
Speaker 1: be focused on as we go through a lame duck session,
Speaker 1: as we have a president who continues to undermine the
Speaker 1: legitimacy of our elections, and then when we get a
Speaker 1: new president, how we should be thinking about our democracy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I would urge people to keep their eyes on the price.
Speaker 1: As John Lewis said, I mean, there's gonna be a
Speaker 1: lot of disinformation out there. I don't think we need
Speaker 1: to relitigate the outcome of the election. I think we
Speaker 1: just need to emphasize people voted in record numbers, their
Speaker 1: votes were counted, the system worked, there were no irregularities,
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's particularly productive to try to
Speaker 1: tweet back at Donald Trump anymore about what he's saying.
Speaker 1: I think it's time to move on and start to
Speaker 1: focus on the real solutions to our democracy. And that's
Speaker 1: how do we rebuild our democracy, not just after four
Speaker 1: years of Donald Trump, but after all of the attacks
Speaker 1: that have come from Republican controlled states, after the gutting
Speaker 1: of the Voting Rights Act. What is a real democracy
Speaker 1: reform agenda look like? And Joe Biden is going to
Speaker 1: be able to do some of that, right. Bill Barr
Speaker 1: is not going to be Attorney General, and there's gonna
Speaker 1: be a lot of stuff that they can do on
Speaker 1: an executive level to try to help people vote and
Speaker 1: rebuild our democracy. But we also need different people in
Speaker 1: control of the U. S. Senate if we're going to
Speaker 1: restore the Voting Rights Act. We also need different people
Speaker 1: in control of states or different outcomes and states if
Speaker 1: we want to prevent another decade of Republican gerrymandering. And
Speaker 1: we need to you is the momentum that we saw
Speaker 1: at the national level, at the state and local level,
Speaker 1: because if there's gridlock in Washington, then the state's really
Speaker 1: become a lot of the laboratories for a change. So
Speaker 1: so I would just urge people to think that this
Speaker 1: is a huge victory, but it's just one step in
Speaker 1: the process, and we really have to still do a
Speaker 1: lot more to make sure that everyone can vote, that
Speaker 1: everyone's votes count equally, and that we have a democracy
Speaker 1: that works for everybody instead of a select few. And
Speaker 1: we're getting closer to that point, but we still have
Speaker 1: a long way to go. That was so well said
Speaker 1: and Thank you so much, Jarry Berman for everything you've
Speaker 1: done to help explain the challenges to voting to help
Speaker 1: defend our democracy, and uh, you know, just keep going because,
Speaker 1: as you say, it's not over yet. We made a
Speaker 1: big step, but we've got to stay committed to the
Speaker 1: path we're on to preserve, protect, and expand our democracy.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking with me today. Thanks
Speaker 1: so much, Secretary Clinton. It was a huge honor. Now
Speaker 1: I want to turn to another journalist, Solo Dad O'Brien.
Speaker 1: She's an award winning documentarian and journalist. She's the founder
Speaker 1: of Solo Dad O'Brien Productions, a documentary production company, and
Speaker 1: the anchor and producer of the TV show Matter of
Speaker 1: Fact with Solidad O'Brien. Hello, Solidad, I am so happy
Speaker 1: to talk with you and I'm looking forward to hearing
Speaker 1: your perspective on this election. Secretary Clinton, thank you, thank
Speaker 1: you for having me on your podcast. It's a real pleasure.
Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to talk to you for a
Speaker 1: lot of different reasons. Your perspective, your experience, your understanding
Speaker 1: of the interplay between the press and the public in
Speaker 1: an election like this one. And I guess I should
Speaker 1: start out asking you what you think of this election,
Speaker 1: What surprised you, what you draw from it? Uh, not
Speaker 1: much surprised me, I would say, except for the fact
Speaker 1: that this election has been a four year process. President
Speaker 1: Trump has never stopped running. And I think where the
Speaker 1: media has failed, although slowly kind of figured it out,
Speaker 1: is how do you handle a candidate who actually has
Speaker 1: no intention at all of kind of stepping into the job.
Speaker 1: So I think it's just been a very long and
Speaker 1: frustrating for years for me. I've focused a lot on
Speaker 1: mistakes I think the media has made. The only thing
Speaker 1: that has surprised me has been the degree to which
Speaker 1: members of Congress and sort of high ranking people in
Speaker 1: the GOP have really capitulated that has been a surprise. Well,
Speaker 1: I think you make two really important points, one about
Speaker 1: the GOP and the other piece about the press. I
Speaker 1: think you nailed it in a number of comments that
Speaker 1: I've seen you make over the years. It was apparently
Speaker 1: just too unbelievable for the press to accept what they
Speaker 1: saw right before their eyes, that this was a man
Speaker 1: who would bully and lie to whatever degree he thought
Speaker 1: benefited him. And I hope that there is now a
Speaker 1: reckoning of some sort. Yeah. I think the media requires
Speaker 1: a narrative change constantly, right, That's what allows you to say, well,
Speaker 1: breaking news, this thing has now happened, that dinge of tone,
Speaker 1: there's a new whatever um. And so I think because
Speaker 1: of that, there's always this concept that you know, maybe
Speaker 1: something is happening here because action is sort of what
Speaker 1: drives that breaking news agenda, if you will. And so
Speaker 1: I think that was part of it. And the other
Speaker 1: piece of it, to me was just this this idea
Speaker 1: of and I think it's related around money. It's just
Speaker 1: not expensive to put pundits on TV. When I was
Speaker 1: at CNN, for example, you pay someone somewhere around a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars a year. But that meant for every
Speaker 1: show for an entire year. And I'm sure people are
Speaker 1: getting much more than that, and some are getting much
Speaker 1: less than that. But if you think about it, you
Speaker 1: now have this sunk cost of TV shows that just
Speaker 1: continue on and on and on with time, moving the
Speaker 1: characters around. As long as you have there's this side
Speaker 1: versus that side, and you create this sense of urgency
Speaker 1: and also conflict, which is a good way to drive viewership.
Speaker 1: The thing that I thought most interesting on election night
Speaker 1: was when finally they ditched all the pundits right and
Speaker 1: they said, let's go to Alleghany County and then talked
Speaker 1: to this person. And it was like, oh, now we're reporting.
Speaker 1: We're going to a person and actually finding out on
Speaker 1: the ground. No one's going to uh suss it out
Speaker 1: for us or give us their take or explain what
Speaker 1: the White House is doing. Just go to the voices
Speaker 1: on the ground. It's not brain surgery. It's reporting. But
Speaker 1: it does require money, live cameras, it requires reporters there.
Speaker 1: And so I was interesting to see that pivot and
Speaker 1: how much the quality improved when you removed all the
Speaker 1: noise of pundits and instead you just relied on regardless
Speaker 1: of their political background. I have no idea that Alleghany
Speaker 1: County lady, who's quite good. I don't know anything about
Speaker 1: or outside. She was a good interview, giving us good
Speaker 1: factual insight into what was happening in an important county
Speaker 1: in a very important state. We're taking a quick break.
Speaker 1: Stay with us, you know. I also wanted to mention
Speaker 1: that you have pointed out time and again that black
Speaker 1: women are often written out of the election narrative. That
Speaker 1: we are usually hearing, and we know they're the most
Speaker 1: reliable voters. And something you tweet it really spoke to me.
Speaker 1: Um you said, I would just like to point out
Speaker 1: that the cities at the center of the action right now, Milwaukee, Philly, Detroit,
Speaker 1: Atlanta virtually never have TV news crews falling over themselves
Speaker 1: to book quote regular folks unquote from there, or want
Speaker 1: to learn more about them or invite them onto their sets.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit more about what you meant?
Speaker 1: The New York Times has an excellent article today on
Speaker 1: a Trump voter who's frustrated and wants people understand why
Speaker 1: he didn't vote. Provided article on the Trump voter for
Speaker 1: it wasn't there. Somebody did account and I think they
Speaker 1: found sixty over the I mean, it's insane, right, It's
Speaker 1: just you know, so I found that very frustrating because
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that people don't want to have the
Speaker 1: Philly voter, because that's how I want to talk to
Speaker 1: especially if you consider how frequently disenfranchise those voters are right,
Speaker 1: like you'd sort of say, like, listen, I would fully
Speaker 1: understand if you didn't vote Native Americans, like who wants
Speaker 1: to stand in line for eleven hours, right Like, it's
Speaker 1: so challenging, and for some reason, I think because the
Speaker 1: New York Times especially felt like they missed the vote
Speaker 1: on the last election, they have really doubled down on this,
Speaker 1: and it's so tedious and ridiculous, you know, and I
Speaker 1: have always found it so weird to sort of parse
Speaker 1: through this, you know, who's responsible as opposed to a
Speaker 1: strategy that maybe the Democrats could think about of elevating
Speaker 1: all of these different groups and really hopeful they can
Speaker 1: figure out the in fighting um, which probably has some
Speaker 1: health to its, probably got some good points to it,
Speaker 1: but this idea, right like, I think you look at
Speaker 1: a state like Arizona, which was Latinos and Native Americans,
Speaker 1: right and I'm sure Cindy McCain schlepping around on behalf
Speaker 1: of them now President elect Biden. I'm sure she got
Speaker 1: some votes to and I'm going to guess in Arizona
Speaker 1: some Lincoln Project ads were effective. So I'm hopeful. It's hard.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know better than anybody, how do you
Speaker 1: build a constituency with people who don't necessarily see eye
Speaker 1: to eye. I think the point is a really critical one.
Speaker 1: Let's get away from slicing and dicing the electorate. You know,
Speaker 1: politics should be a process of addition, not division. And
Speaker 1: nobody owns the truth. Nobody can say, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 1: if only you listen to me, or oh no, if
Speaker 1: you only do that. So I think it's important that we,
Speaker 1: you know, have this debate about the path forward. And
Speaker 1: it's going to be especially important because sadly, at least
Speaker 1: as of now, you know, the Biden Harris administration is
Speaker 1: not going to have a Senate. In fact, they're going
Speaker 1: to have the same obstacle called Mitch McConnell that Barack
Speaker 1: Obama and Joe Biden no from their own prior experience.
Speaker 1: But I really have to ask you about kamala Um.
Speaker 1: Here we are, and it was thrilling to see her
Speaker 1: wearing that white suffragist suit, standing on that plant pants
Speaker 1: suit pants pants. So it was it goes all the
Speaker 1: way back a hundred years to the suffragists. But what
Speaker 1: does saying madam Vice President mean to you? I just
Speaker 1: think it's amazing to have an opportunity to show America
Speaker 1: in all of its diversity. I really do. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think often when we talk about diversity, we're sort
Speaker 1: of saying, well, black people are you know, latinos or
Speaker 1: we're really talking about this. And I actually would love
Speaker 1: to see a cabinet that just looks like America. And
Speaker 1: you know a lot of the times you'd see photos
Speaker 1: from inside the round table of people sort of you know,
Speaker 1: cow towing to President Trump and it was just all
Speaker 1: older white men, and it's just not the picture of
Speaker 1: a very diverse country. So just from that standpoint alone,
Speaker 1: I think it would be amazing. But you know, I'm
Speaker 1: a Delta, which is a black sorority that focuses on surface.
Speaker 1: She's an A K A. And I can tell you
Speaker 1: the A k s are going to or already and
Speaker 1: we'll continue to be insolved. There's always a little flashing anyway.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, now a Delta elect let's
Speaker 1: come on, get moving. Yes, but we're happy for the
Speaker 1: A K s. But yeah, I mean it's it's great,
Speaker 1: and I think it's I remember my daughter Cecilia, who's
Speaker 1: now about to start college. But when Barack Obama was elected,
Speaker 1: she's used to say, so, he's the first black man.
Speaker 1: I think she was about to say. I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: She's like, there hasn't been another one. I said, She's like, well,
Speaker 1: how many girls have never been I'm like, that's a
Speaker 1: bad news for you, honey, there's been no girls. No girls,
Speaker 1: because you know, and it does matter in the I
Speaker 1: think narrative about the possibility of what America is that
Speaker 1: really can have this opportunity as long as they work
Speaker 1: hard and take advantage of what's in front of them. So,
Speaker 1: you know, I think in that regard it's it's really important. Okay,
Speaker 1: So big question, what do you think this election tells
Speaker 1: us about the country we're living in and what kind
Speaker 1: of progress do you think can be made with you know,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden and Kamala Harris now going to be you know,
Speaker 1: in the White House. I hope one thing they focus
Speaker 1: on is taking those things that are norms, which is
Speaker 1: a terrible word because I don't think it ever connects
Speaker 1: to people. I don't think we walk around saying, well,
Speaker 1: that's a norm and it doesn't mean anything. So I
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of things in government that
Speaker 1: we all learned hatch act it's a norm and it
Speaker 1: has no actual teeth behind it. And I think probably
Speaker 1: the biggest thing we've learned and is how much hinges
Speaker 1: on norms which means you're relying on your colleagues to
Speaker 1: do the right thing. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't.
Speaker 1: So maybe those norms need to be strengthened so that
Speaker 1: there's actual accountability. And we also have to figure out
Speaker 1: just misinformation and disinformation. I really am frustrated with the
Speaker 1: media because I think they talk out of both sides
Speaker 1: of their mouths. You know, they elevate misinformation, They carry
Speaker 1: press conferences that are literally they will report later that
Speaker 1: it was fully alive while while also doing a special
Speaker 1: on misinformation, and doesn't mean you can't really do that
Speaker 1: and hope to be serving democracy. So I don't know
Speaker 1: how much more can be done without addressing those things first,
Speaker 1: because those, to me, having never been in government office,
Speaker 1: feel like the building blocks of helping people understand their democracy.
Speaker 1: And if we don't kind of create some kind of
Speaker 1: structure there, it's insane to me. And I'm not sure
Speaker 1: at the last minutes we've been talking this has changed,
Speaker 1: but that there's some lady who just decided she's not
Speaker 1: going to verify the result. Yeah, the lady in charge
Speaker 1: of helping the Biden team transition into the new administration
Speaker 1: has decided. I'm sure having been told by the Trump
Speaker 1: White House that she's just not going to cooperate and
Speaker 1: you're not going to give them. But I would have
Speaker 1: never thought that was a thing like ID page seventy
Speaker 1: nine of whatever the handbook is they give you all
Speaker 1: when you go into governments, you would say like, yeah,
Speaker 1: item seven, top five. Well, but I really like what
Speaker 1: you said about accountability, and I am very much in
Speaker 1: that camp that there has to be accountability for the
Speaker 1: breaches that we saw violating the Hatch Act, for example,
Speaker 1: but there were so many others. They would put people
Speaker 1: into positions that we're not qualified, they were not confirmed,
Speaker 1: and they would leave them there and courts would say no,
Speaker 1: they have to go, and then they would move them around.
Speaker 1: I mean, there was so much that just undermined the
Speaker 1: rule of law and the expectation every American, regardless of
Speaker 1: political party, should have that the people in the government
Speaker 1: are actually following the rules. But I think your average
Speaker 1: Americans thinks Bill bar is President Trump's lawyer. I think
Speaker 1: your average American feels like the d o J actually
Speaker 1: is there to do the president's bidding. I think we
Speaker 1: have failed, certainly in explaining, you know, basic mechanisms of
Speaker 1: how government works. So I don't I think most people
Speaker 1: don't really understand those issues. Uh So, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of work has to be done on that front
Speaker 1: as well. But that's why I think your kind of
Speaker 1: journalism is more important now than ever. So it because,
Speaker 1: for whatever combination of reasons, kids are not getting Civics education,
Speaker 1: people are not getting good information on which to make decisions,
Speaker 1: which is instrumental to how a democracy is supposed to work.
Speaker 1: So the press has a huge responsibility, and I can
Speaker 1: only hope and pray that they're going to step up
Speaker 1: better than they have in the last four years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wish I could tell you like, yep, you got it.
Speaker 1: I think that we're going to have to wait and
Speaker 1: see and if there's someone who can figure out how
Speaker 1: to make ratings out of not a lot of what
Speaker 1: made Trump and I know because I was in the
Speaker 1: room for many of these conversations made him appealing, right,
Speaker 1: was he'lled who knows what he'll do. He's It's great
Speaker 1: for reality TV. You never know, it's the wild card.
Speaker 1: It's going to be interesting. And I think we have
Speaker 1: to figure out how to get certainly news to move
Speaker 1: away from that and move into educating people. The one
Speaker 1: thing I can say is when we started doing that
Speaker 1: on our show, because we were forced to, our ratings
Speaker 1: grew massively. People actually wanted to understand the context, and
Speaker 1: so on that front, I do feel hopeful because I
Speaker 1: think people actually want information and context. Well from your
Speaker 1: lips to God's ears. My friend, I'm not sure how
Speaker 1: much he listens to me, but I just can't thank
Speaker 1: you enough. I just really wanted you to be part
Speaker 1: of this discussion. Thank you so much, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Before we wrap up, there's one more election update I
Speaker 1: wanted to share. If you listen to last week's show,
Speaker 1: you'll remember Brandon Thomas who was running for state representative
Speaker 1: in Tennessee. He ran a hard fought campaign, but sadly
Speaker 1: Brandon did not win that race, but he shared this
Speaker 1: message with us. Hi, everybody, this is Brandon Thomas. We
Speaker 1: didn't get the result we wanted in this past election. However,
Speaker 1: I am excited. I'm thankful that we have President elect
Speaker 1: Joseph Biden, and I think that means a lot for
Speaker 1: our country. Me I'm going to keep plugging. We know,
Speaker 1: Tennessee in and of itself is a red state. You know,
Speaker 1: we know that it's going to take some time, and
Speaker 1: we know that we can look to Georgia for that inspiration.
Speaker 1: You know, Georgia is right below us. Like if Georgia
Speaker 1: can do it, Tennessee can do it. We're going to
Speaker 1: figure out how to flip Tennessee blue again, and we're
Speaker 1: going to figure out how to make progress again. So
Speaker 1: you know, I'm still in this fight. I know a
Speaker 1: lot of other people are as well. Don't discount us.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of Brandon and everyone who decided to
Speaker 1: jump into the arena in this election. You know, I've
Speaker 1: thought a lot about this election, and obviously I've thought
Speaker 1: a lot about the last election. In it's very reassuring
Speaker 1: to see the outpouring of votes by people who want
Speaker 1: to see a change and voted for Joe Biden and
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris. You know, back in I never wrote a
Speaker 1: concession speech until it became necessary, but I did have
Speaker 1: a victory speech, and I went back and I looked
Speaker 1: at that because parts of it seemed so relevant to
Speaker 1: me today to Joe and com ALA's wonderful victory. And
Speaker 1: let me just read from it, because it's the tone
Speaker 1: and the tenor that I think was captured this weekend
Speaker 1: when so many people spontaneously poured out into the streets
Speaker 1: across America, singing and dancing and laughing, and still wearing
Speaker 1: masks in most places, but just so filled with joy.
Speaker 1: So here's what I had hoped to be able to say.
Speaker 1: With your children on your shoulders, neighbors at your side, friends,
Speaker 1: old and new, standing as one, you renewed our democracy
Speaker 1: and you changed its face forever. If you dig deep
Speaker 1: enough through all the mud of politics, eventually you hit
Speaker 1: something hard and true, a foundation of fundamental values that
Speaker 1: unite us as Americans. You proved that today in a
Speaker 1: country divided by race and religion, class and culture, and
Speaker 1: often paralyzing partisanship, a vision of a hopeful, inclusive, big
Speaker 1: hearted America prevailed. That is how I'm feeling today, and
Speaker 1: I hope you are too. You and me both is
Speaker 1: brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by
Speaker 1: Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from Juma Aberdeen,
Speaker 1: Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson,
Speaker 1: Rob Russo, and Lona val moorro our engineer Is Zack McNeice.
Speaker 1: Original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like the show,
Speaker 1: tell someone else about it. You can subscribe to You
Speaker 1: and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love to hear
Speaker 1: from you. Send us your questions and comments, or even
Speaker 1: ideas for future episodes to You and Me Both pod
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. Come back next week when we'll
Speaker 1: be speaking with Governor Gretchen Whitmer, who has seen a
Speaker 1: lot of ups and downs of this election firsthand as
Speaker 1: governor of Michigan. Don't miss her, and don't miss it.