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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast, and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discuss the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Donald Trump says his very talented

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Speaker 1: daughter in law, Lara Trump, should run the RNC. We

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Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. MSNBC legal

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Speaker 1: analyst Andrew Weissman stops by to debunk all Things her.

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Speaker 1: Then we will talk to Harvard professor Fetis scotch Pohl

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Speaker 1: about how the right wing is mutating. But first we

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Speaker 1: have the host of the Bulwark Daily, The Bulwarks, Tim Miller.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics. Fan favorite Tim Miller.

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Speaker 2: All right, give me that gold watch.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a minute of plugging. Tim

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Speaker 1: is now the daily host of the Bulwark podcast, which

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Speaker 1: means every fucking day you can get Tim.

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Speaker 2: Miller in your ears every day. That's right, baby, and

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Speaker 2: then even sometimes twice when I come hang out with

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Speaker 2: Molly John Fast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the melodious sounds of Tim Miller.

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Speaker 2: I did mention when I did the handoff from Charlie,

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Speaker 2: I don't really have his radio voice. He had that

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Speaker 2: beautiful cadence and the dulcet tone, and I said, you're

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Speaker 2: just you're gonna have to substitute that beauty for my snark.

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Speaker 2: You know, hopefully the laughs will overshadow the vocal fry.

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Speaker 1: Well, I, as a practitioner a vocal fry myself. He

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Speaker 1: does have a real dulcin I mean, he is like

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Speaker 1: from the radio world that doesn't exist anymore, which is

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Speaker 1: why we love him and think he's so really important.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk for a minute about I have a

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Speaker 1: piece coming out today, so I always have to plug

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Speaker 1: my work in other venues. No, I'm just kidding, but

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Speaker 1: the anxiety election, because that's basically what this is, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I haven't read your piece, so I'd look

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Speaker 2: forward to reading it. But we all have anxiety, and

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Speaker 2: I think this explains I talked about this a little

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Speaker 2: bit the end of the Monday Bollard Pod. People are

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Speaker 2: mad at each other right now if they have different

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Speaker 2: opinions about like the right strategic approach, you know, like

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Speaker 2: all of us on the same team, like the anti

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Speaker 2: Trump pro democracy team. Like there's a lot of infighting

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Speaker 2: happening right now. It's like, oh, you're being too mean

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Speaker 2: to bind and it's like, oh no, we're actually trying

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Speaker 2: to help by pointing out, this is a real problem

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Speaker 2: that needs to be solved, and it's like, no, if

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Speaker 2: you mentioned age, then you're then you know, you might

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Speaker 2: as well be a Trump or just put your red

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Speaker 2: hap backer. And it's kind of like everyone needs to

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Speaker 2: take a breath. Tensions are high, Anxiety is high for

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Speaker 2: good reason because the threat is so big, and it's

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Speaker 2: like everybody that's on the same side, Like if somebody

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Speaker 2: is a different strategic approach than you, it's okay to

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Speaker 2: listen to It's okay to say that's dumb idea, actually,

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Speaker 2: but it's also okay just to listen and say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: how can we work this through to put the good

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Speaker 2: guys in the best position for victory possible nine months

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Speaker 2: from now? And I think that there's there's just the

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Speaker 2: nerves are fraying discussing that for sure.

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Speaker 1: I think that's really right. I also think that what

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Speaker 1: you're saying about the stakes is really important. Right. The

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Speaker 1: thing that's like so hard for me as I watch

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Speaker 1: it is like twenty sixty and we thought, okay, Trump

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Speaker 1: is it's not going to win then, And I kept saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: He's going to win, you guys, and everyone'say, no, no,

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Speaker 1: he's not gonna win, It's okay. So then he wins.

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Speaker 1: Then there's this feeling in twenty twenty you know, if

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Speaker 1: you ignore him, he'll go away. What happens instead is

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Speaker 1: that he poisons what little was left of the Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: And now there are like what was heartening was the

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Speaker 1: Senate vote yesterday at foreign aid right, foreign aid, This

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Speaker 1: is like what Reagan ran on foreign aid right, Like,

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Speaker 1: this is what we do. We are the country where

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Speaker 1: you know, we protect Again. I personally that's it's not

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Speaker 1: my worldview, but like you know, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Obama,

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Speaker 1: you know, we are the shining city on the hill. Again,

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Speaker 1: not my personal view.

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Speaker 2: What what you don't think we're shining? You don't think

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Speaker 2: we're on a hill, Molly, We're not the land of

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Speaker 2: milk and honey.

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Speaker 1: I get itchy with nation building, but the point is here,

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Speaker 1: it is this is like a central tenet of American democracy.

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Speaker 1: And the numbers were pretty good in the Senate. I

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Speaker 1: was actually surprised that they were so high, but then

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Speaker 1: Mike meg and Mike Johnson was like, now we're not

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Speaker 1: going to do that.

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Speaker 2: Well, anytime you're heartened, I like to just kind of

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Speaker 2: rip that heart out and bring in the darkness. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was not that hardened twenty nine. I'm not at

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Speaker 2: all itchy about jingoism. So those are just two areas

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Speaker 2: of disagreement to the USA. So here's the problem. Two

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Speaker 2: things happened in the past couple of days that are

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Speaker 2: disheartening for me. On this bill. You're right, you're right.

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Speaker 2: It passed seventy votes. That's good, and I think that

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Speaker 2: that is very important for Ukraine in the short Ukraine

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Speaker 2: needs this because if they don't like that, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's handing this thing over to Putin and the time

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Speaker 2: is ticking and having a window to do this, So

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Speaker 2: that was important. The problem is thirty nine center Republicans

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Speaker 2: voted for it two years ago down to twenty two,

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Speaker 2: so it's moving the wrong direction. Let me tell you,

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Speaker 2: I'm teen. People didn't change their mind, Okay, like they

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Speaker 2: just are bowing to pressure from the base, which wishes

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Speaker 2: this bill was killed for the most part a majority

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Speaker 2: of the party. Then the other little nugget I want

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Speaker 2: to throw on top of there's my Gallagher. That little

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Speaker 2: coward left the Congress at a from Wisconsin at age

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Speaker 2: thirty nine. He's the one that every all of my

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Speaker 2: friends who are still in the Republican world like hanging

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Speaker 2: their hat on, like there are still some good Republicans.

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Speaker 2: Look at Mike Galigher, Well, Mike Gallagher voted against impeachment,

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Speaker 2: so he's not that good. He leaves. This is the

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Speaker 2: old Adam Smith. You know, markets, supply and demand, this

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Speaker 2: is my this is my my free market as I'm

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Speaker 2: coming back in, free market is at work in the

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Speaker 2: Republican Party. The demand from the voters is for mega

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Speaker 2: it's for isolationism, it's for bigotry. You know, it's for

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Speaker 2: closing borders. And if you are the type of candidate

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Speaker 2: that does not like all that stuff, you're either checking

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Speaker 2: out voluntarily like Mike Gallagher, or you're losing in primaries,

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Speaker 2: or you're very old and in the Senate and people

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Speaker 2: are waiting for you to be pushed out. Okay, that's

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Speaker 2: like that is it? Like the things are moving in

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Speaker 2: exorably the wrong direction with the GOP that said it's

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Speaker 2: good for Ukraine. Hopefully they can figure out a way

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Speaker 2: to get this up for in the House, because it

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Speaker 2: would pass if it got up for a vote. It's

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Speaker 2: just a question about whether Maggie Mike Johnson has the

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Speaker 2: stones to just block it.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting, Mike Johnson. I want to have a

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Speaker 1: minute on Mike Johnson. One of the weird things about

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Speaker 1: trump Ism is that you get jobs that you absolutely

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Speaker 1: are not qualified for because no one else will do that. Yes, right,

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Speaker 1: like the whole Trump administration. You'd be like, you're the

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Speaker 1: under secretary of what And it was like, well, the

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Speaker 1: other choice was like a guy who was like somebody's cousin.

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Speaker 2: That is true. I had a whole kind of chapter

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Speaker 2: about these people in the book about how, like you

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Speaker 2: just these strivers that got into Trump world, that they

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Speaker 2: had no chance getting this job in any other administration.

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Speaker 2: Like the idea that Sean Spicer would have been the

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Speaker 2: press secretary for any other Republican president like is insane,

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Speaker 2: Like nobody would ever have picked him. You could say

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Speaker 2: that about all all this press secretaries really, and so

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Speaker 2: it like self selects people that are like particularly sociopathic, right,

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Speaker 2: because I am so ambitious that I am willing to

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Speaker 2: take a job for a guy that has no loyalty

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Speaker 2: and that I recognize is completely morally repugnant, because this

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Speaker 2: is my one chance to do it, And so that

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Speaker 2: is not really a great personality trait to have for

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Speaker 2: people running the country.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a very good point. So Trump has

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Speaker 1: now he controls the House of Representatives, or at least

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Speaker 1: he feels he does. They're not a huge majority, but

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Speaker 1: he feels he has it. He is in a power

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Speaker 1: struggle with Mitch McConnell. They try to get him out

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Speaker 1: so he can control the Senate right, which Republicans don't control,

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Speaker 1: but they hope they will soon. And then the RNC.

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Speaker 1: Now you have some RNC experience here, I do as

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Speaker 1: an outsider. It seems to me like Rana Mitt Romney's

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Speaker 1: niece has the worst job in the entire world, but

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Speaker 1: still Trump wants to give it to his daughter in law.

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Speaker 1: Discuss a lot there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Rona Romney had the worship of the

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Speaker 2: world and somehow managed to keep it for like over

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Speaker 2: a half decade, like despite being the worst party chairman

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Speaker 2: in modern political history and being miserable. It's hard to

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Speaker 2: understand it. I guess she just liked those mar A

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Speaker 2: Lago Cougar parties so much that she couldn't give him up.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so she gets pushed out. Now Trump is

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Speaker 2: going to push in a guy that was the North

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Speaker 2: Carolina party chair for the head gig. And this guy

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Speaker 2: was famous basically for claiming to Trump that Trump won

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Speaker 2: North Carolina because they did such a good job of

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Speaker 2: shutting down the fraud, like, you know, like they put

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Speaker 2: on the good machines in North Carolina, mister Trump, fantastical

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Speaker 2: lies about the twenty twenty election or how you advance

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Speaker 2: yourself in the Republican Party. Now, so he gets the

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Speaker 2: main job, and then Trump is going to have his

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Speaker 2: daughter in law as the co chair, you know, just

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Speaker 2: to make sure that he has somebody on the inside

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Speaker 2: in case he needs the party to like write checks

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Speaker 2: for his legal defense or whatever, you know, just to

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Speaker 2: just to make sure that any kind that there's a

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Speaker 2: question of, well whether the party should do the right

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Speaker 2: thing or whether it should just be a service to Trump. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they'll make sure there's a Trump family member on the

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Speaker 2: phone call to hear if there are any dissenters in

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Speaker 2: the building. It's very it's very third world. It's very

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Speaker 2: like Bella, Russian it is.

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Speaker 1: It's very like Banana Republic. Right, are we allowed to

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Speaker 1: say Banana public? Yes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to me, like part of the reason why

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Speaker 1: Trump has decided it's rawn A's time to go. Partially

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Speaker 1: it's because he wants the RNC to pay his legal bills.

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Speaker 1: The excuse he's using is that she's not raising enough

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Speaker 1: money for him. Would anyone else do a better job?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry to do this, but I mean

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Speaker 1: just I mean, and I'm hardly a fan of Rana,

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Speaker 1: but it seems to me like this is like one

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Speaker 1: of these times where Trump is like picking Carrie Lake

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Speaker 1: to run for Senate after she is already the governor.

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Speaker 1: It's one of these things where it's so incredibly self

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Speaker 1: destructive and stupid you have to pause and be like, what, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And did you ever watch the TV series about Chernobyl?

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Speaker 2: You know, like he's like Soviet like systems where everybody

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Speaker 2: is in service to one god king. Like there's some flaws, okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, because people lie and there's backstabbing and so yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's it's scary that Trump and these guys are out

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Speaker 2: there and that he's winning in the polls. But like

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Speaker 2: the internal processes are not efficient, Like this is not

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Speaker 2: a well operating machine here. Okay, it's hard to see

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Speaker 2: how somebody could raise more money, Like the question is

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Speaker 2: who would you raise more money from, Like they are

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Speaker 2: already juicing the ten dollars MAGA donors.

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Speaker 1: And those people are going to Trump.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like those people are already giving to Trump, so that

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Speaker 2: like there's not a lot of juice left on that orange, right,

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Speaker 2: And so then it's like then you go to the

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Speaker 2: big donors and they're going to give to the RNC

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Speaker 2: for what, right, Like like the RNC has to give

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Speaker 2: them a rationale that they're going to do something that

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Speaker 2: is useful to those guys, and they're like you're them,

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Speaker 2: Like why won't you just give money to you know,

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Speaker 2: Mitch McConnell, right, like the NRSC or somebody like hoping

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Speaker 2: Nicky yeah or Nikki right. So I'm with you. It's

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Speaker 2: hard to see how I think that they're a really

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Speaker 2: bad way kind of at least organizationally. Unfortunately, there's some

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Speaker 2: other things that are working in their favor right now,

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Speaker 2: but the organization, they're in a bad spot.

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Speaker 1: Do we have enough information to go on? Like we

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Speaker 1: in the media industrial complex who are in a full

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Speaker 1: on freak out about everything right now about this anxiety election,

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Speaker 1: Like what is the information we are going on? Right, because, like,

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Speaker 1: the polls are bad, but the polls have been consistently bad,

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Speaker 1: and like, for example, I had this guy on who

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Speaker 1: did this piece for the Economists. He's a recovering pollster,

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Speaker 1: and he talked about how actually the really good polls

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Speaker 1: have Biden down by point five and this is something

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Speaker 1: we saw, We've seen since twenty eighteen, flooding the zone

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Speaker 1: with junkie polls to help MAGA candidates. So like there's

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Speaker 1: certainly some of that going on, right, Like that's not

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Speaker 1: to say that Biden is like, but I'm just saying,

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Speaker 1: like I do wonder we're not getting great information here,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure we're transmitting great information either. Like

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Speaker 1: it's a country of hundreds of millions of people, Like

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Speaker 1: how many are actually reading the New York Times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that two things

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Speaker 2: are true here. One is that it's just hard to judge.

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Speaker 2: We don't have full information on how to judge what

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Speaker 2: a Trump Biden matchup is going to really look like

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Speaker 2: in February for a couple of reasons. One that we

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Speaker 2: don't know exactly the third party situation is going to be. Two,

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Speaker 2: I think that there's a lag on economic kind of response. Right,

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Speaker 2: the ecounty has been getting better, but it takes people

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Speaker 2: a while. You know, you have to do your bills

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Speaker 2: for a few months before you realize that you're like, oh, actually,

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Speaker 2: like things are looking up right before you, you know,

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Speaker 2: look at your Charles schwamb account or whatever and say okay.

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Speaker 1: And that's the Harry Truman's inflationary transitory inflationary argument, which

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Speaker 1: is Truman had this massive transitory inflation after World War

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Speaker 1: Two that pundons thought Dewe would ride to re election

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Speaker 1: and that did not happen.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, so there's a delay. So I think that

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Speaker 2: there's a and you see some of this. We can

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Speaker 2: do a whole history lesson, but you've seen some of

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Speaker 2: so many presidential elections, and then there's the Trump. I

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Speaker 2: do think that we don't really know what Hayley voters

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Speaker 2: are going to do because like the Trump of it

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Speaker 2: all hasn't sunken in yet. You know that it's like

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Speaker 2: it's really going to be this asshole. It's just starting

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Speaker 2: to sink in with normies, so all that stuff. I

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Speaker 2: think that the polls will be not perfect, but just

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Speaker 2: a better indicator in April than it is now. And

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Speaker 2: I think we'll have a better sense of the state

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Speaker 2: of play in April or May. I do think though

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Speaker 2: it is just it is just reality that like people

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Speaker 2: are worried about by age, right, Like that's not bad information,

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Speaker 2: it's like people worried about it. How much are they

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Speaker 2: worried about it? Are they so worried about it that

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Speaker 2: they might vote for a third party or Trump? You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that we really know the second question yet,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's pretty clear for the numbers that

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Speaker 2: people are worried about it, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that denial doesn't do anything for anyone, right,

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Speaker 1: But I also do think we don't have great mechanisms

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Speaker 1: for telling what's going on, right, Like, I mean, Sarah

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Speaker 1: a long while does these focus groups, so she at

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Speaker 1: least is like in their way with voters and me

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Speaker 1: and I talk to someone at the White House who

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Speaker 1: said that they do a lot of focus groups and

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Speaker 1: one of the things they see is that it's very

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Speaker 1: hard to dislike Biden. You can think he is too old,

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Speaker 1: but you don't dislike him. And I wonder how much

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Speaker 1: that is actually an important bit of data right there, right,

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Speaker 1: like that the candidate that even if you have a

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Speaker 1: candidate who is old and who you feel, for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: you don't like the fact that he's old. One of

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Speaker 1: the things with Hillary was that, I say this as

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Speaker 1: a feminist who spends a lot of time thinking about

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Speaker 1: why women candidates have such a terrible time in this country,

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Speaker 1: I just wonder if being an old white guy actually

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Speaker 1: serves Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, And I mean this was the key. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the difference between Hillary and Biden was just the intensity

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Speaker 2: of that dislike, right I In Biden one basically you

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Speaker 2: can just cut away all the other bs and it's

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Speaker 2: like voters who told bolsters I don't like Hillary and

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Speaker 2: I don't like Trump, mostly voted for trum. The voters

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Speaker 2: are told posters, I don't like Trump and I don't

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Speaker 2: like Biden, mostly voted for Biden.

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Speaker 3: Like.

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Speaker 2: There could be a lot of reasons for that, but

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons is almost certainly that, which is

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Speaker 2: why it makes it hard sometimes to interpret the polls.

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Speaker 2: Is like the intensity of the unfavorability right like, they

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Speaker 2: were intensely unfavorable towards Hillary and to Biden, it's like,

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Speaker 2: I don't really like him. He's not my cup of tea,

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Speaker 2: Like okay, and so you know, I definitely think that

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Speaker 2: there's a gender element to it. I think that there's

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Speaker 2: a conservative media complex attacking Hillary, you know, to it.

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Speaker 2: I think that some of it was self inflicted. We

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Speaker 2: just know that that is true based on the results

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Speaker 2: from sixteen to twenty.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting too, though, that the conservative media has decided

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Speaker 1: to attack and they've been doing this attack right basement

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Speaker 1: Biden since twenty twenty. But it is interesting to me

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Speaker 1: that the attack they're using is that Biden gets stuff

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Speaker 1: wrong and seems out of it, and their guy suffers

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Speaker 1: from the very same problem, right, Like, even if you're

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Speaker 1: just to to say, like, even if you take this

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Speaker 1: attack and say it's true, I don't think it's true,

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Speaker 1: but okay, but you are running someone who you could

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Speaker 1: make the exact same attack on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, dude doesn't do anything and he goes to court

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Speaker 2: and golfs. I literally. I saw one of his defenders

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Speaker 2: said recently that he was golfing so much now because

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Speaker 2: he knows he's not going to have time once he's

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Speaker 2: saving the country as president. What I mean, he has

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Speaker 2: four trials and we're in the middle of an election,

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Speaker 2: like that is just not believable, you know. I mean

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Speaker 2: the videos you see at Trump were like cow many

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Speaker 2: videos have you've seen of mine, just randomly showing up

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Speaker 2: to people's weddings and walking around to say hello.

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Speaker 1: Well Trump, though Trump wrote, people say Trump can't do

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Speaker 1: as many events as he used to be able to.

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Speaker 1: And I think about twenty sixteen, like watching him zip

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Speaker 1: across the country. Remember, like you do a rally and

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Speaker 1: then you get on explaining you do another rally, you know,

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Speaker 1: so it is. I just wonder if your attack on

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Speaker 1: the Democrat can be very well repurposed to be the

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Speaker 1: attack on the I don't know that that's a great

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Speaker 1: place to be in, No, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I can it's not a good place to be in.

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Speaker 2: But you know, again, you just go back to this whole.

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Speaker 2: It shouldn't he be in a worse place? Right?

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Speaker 1: And you know, you.

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Speaker 2: Go around and around on this. But I think that

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Speaker 2: he has some very very real vulnerabilities and I think

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Speaker 2: that some of them are not showing up in the

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Speaker 2: polls yet. There's a little bit of a lag, and

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Speaker 2: God will and they.

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Speaker 1: Start Tim Miller, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Molly John Fast anytime, thank you, thank.

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Speaker 1: You, thank you. You're the best. Did you know? Rick

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Speaker 1: Wilson and I are bringing together some friends for a

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Speaker 1: general election kickoff party at City Winery in New York

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Speaker 1: on March sixth. We're going to be chatting right after

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Speaker 1: Super Tuesday about what's going on, and it is going

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Speaker 1: to probably be the one fun night for the next

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Speaker 1: eighty days. If you're in the New York area, please

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Speaker 1: come by and join us. You can go to City

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Speaker 1: Winery's website and grab a ticket. Andrew Weissman is the

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Speaker 1: co host of the MSNBC podcast Prosecuting Donald Trump and

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Speaker 1: the co author of the Trump Indictments. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of them. Welcome back to Fast Politics. Andrew Weisman, Hey, Molly,

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Speaker 1: so great to be here. I love having you, and

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Speaker 1: I love running into you, and I'm god we're friends,

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Speaker 1: and I also really like you as a human on

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Speaker 1: this earth, of which hopefully we'll be here for a while.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to talk to you. Not to get

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Speaker 1: too dark.

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Speaker 4: We're going to get really really dark, really fast.

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Speaker 1: Really fast. One of the many things I like about

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Speaker 1: you is that you have had a lot of these

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Speaker 1: jobs so well, I can speculate all I want. You've

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Speaker 1: actually like worked on the SPET, You've worked in a

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Speaker 1: Special Council investigation, You've been in the Mueller investigation. You've

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Speaker 1: sort of been in those places where the rest of

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Speaker 1: us can only speculate. So I feel like your take

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Speaker 1: on her is much more meaningful than pretty much ninety

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Speaker 1: nine point nine nine nine percent of the world, with

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Speaker 1: the exception of Eric Calder, who I think had a

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Speaker 1: pretty was pretty pissed he did.

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Speaker 4: Although I have to say, I don't think he's ever

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Speaker 4: been in a special counsel But by the way, I

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Speaker 4: don't think I actually agree with you that Eric holders.

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Speaker 4: Obviously he's been the Attorney General and has incredible experienced.

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Speaker 1: I was shocked when I saw that tweet, Like I

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Speaker 1: was like.

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Speaker 4: Whoa, Yeah, people have come said all sorts of very

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Speaker 4: interesting things. I mean, one of the things that I

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Speaker 4: think he has said is why is he even asking

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Speaker 4: what the date is of the death of Joe Biden's son.

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize he was giving like a memory test.

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Speaker 4: I mean, like, how does that even come up?

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Speaker 1: You also were appointed by George W. Bush in a

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Speaker 1: world when things were normal, so you really understand the

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Speaker 1: sort of the nonpartisan space that is supposed to be

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Speaker 1: the DOJ.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I have served since nineteen ninety one. I've served

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Speaker 4: under I think every Attorney general since then in various capacity.

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Speaker 4: So I think Mary mccordy and I talked about this,

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Speaker 4: which is until, like the Trump era, you can't think

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Speaker 4: about politics at all in your job. It just was irrelevant.

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Speaker 4: And then when I was on the Moller investigation, it

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Speaker 4: suddenly was like a big thing. And it's so funny

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Speaker 4: because now people think of me as some far left liberal,

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Speaker 4: whereas like most of my friends are like liberal. You

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Speaker 4: were in the government for twenty one years. I teach

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Speaker 4: at NYU Law School. I can tell you I'm not

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Speaker 4: viewed as liberal there. It's sort of the warping of

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Speaker 4: norms and perceptions that has happened, I think during the

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Speaker 4: Trump era, and I mean Trump era, whether he's president

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Speaker 4: or running for president.

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Speaker 1: I want you to talk us through the decision to

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Speaker 1: pick her, and I think it comes back to the

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Speaker 1: decision to pick Merrick Garland. In twenty twenty. The world

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Speaker 1: looked a little different, right. There was a sense that

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Speaker 1: maybe if Democrats, though we were, weren't warned. I want

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Speaker 1: to say this because I think it's important we were

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Speaker 1: warned by certain experts in authoritarianism that Democrats would not

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Speaker 1: be able to just pretend that things were normal and

432
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 1: go back to norms and that it would all work

433
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 1: like that, But they tried, and I think that appointing

434
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 1: Merrick Garland, Biden was trying to say, you know, here's

435
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 1: a guy who was a judge. Just talk us through

436
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,479
Speaker 1: what you think Biden was doing by putting Merrick Garland

437
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 1: on the job and then subsequently what he was doing

438
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: by picking her.

439
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 4: I think that's a great place to start, because there's

440
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 4: a lot to be said, and there's a lot that

441
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,719
Speaker 4: has been said about her report itself, but it's useful,

442
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 4: I think, to pull back the camera to it's a

443
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 4: secondary issue, but a really important one, and in many

444
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 4: ways maybe the bigger issue. So I think think that

445
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 4: in picking Merrick Garland, Joe Biden was doing frankly what

446
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,239
Speaker 4: he said he was doing, which is he viewsed the

447
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 4: Department of Justice as apolitical and its individual charging decisions

448
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 4: would be made independently of the White House, and they

449
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 4: need to be made independently of the White House. You know,

450
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 4: there was as a break from the sort of unitary

451
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,919
Speaker 4: executive why but precisely because it's not appropriate to have

452
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 4: Donald Trump when he was president saying let's go after

453
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 4: Democrats and not go after Republicans. You know, I want

454
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 4: them to not charge my friends. I want them to

455
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 4: dismiss those cases. I mean, so this was a way

456
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 4: to say, you know what, who's going to have more

457
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 4: integrity than somebody who has years ago been in the department.

458
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 4: So he's aware of how it works. But he's been

459
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 4: a very respected judge for over twenty years the DC Circuit,

460
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 4: and you know, by all accounts, is an honorable, good person,

461
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 4: and I think nothing that's happened in any way make

462
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 4: me doubt any of that in terms of his being

463
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 4: acting in good faith and being a brilliant, smart, lovely, thoughtful,

464
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 4: empathetic person as you can tell. But I do have

465
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 4: a butt coming, right, which is that I think that

466
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 4: the appointment that where you say, in order to investigate Democrats,

467
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 4: you need to have a Republican appointed as a prosecutor,

468
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 4: a lah Ken Starr, right, And the idea is like,

469
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 4: it's a Republican who is looking into Hunter Biden, but

470
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 4: by the same time, it's a Republican who's looking into

471
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 4: Mike Pence. So it's like Republicans investigate republicans, and republicans

472
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 4: investcape democrats, and it's republicans who investigate republicans because you

473
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 4: would be subject to attack if you've had a Democrat there,

474
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 4: but you have a Republican, investigate democrats because if you

475
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 4: appointed a Democrat and you would say, oh, they're going

476
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 4: to pull their punches. So no matter what you had,

477
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 4: America on appointing Republicans for all of these things. I

478
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 4: think that that sort of taking the easy road up

479
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 4: front of Oh, I don't want to have an attack

480
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 4: on me for doing this. I want to show that

481
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 4: I'm bending over backwards buys into one that's a political decision,

482
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 4: a small p political decision, and you're there precisely because

483
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 4: you weren't supposed to take politics into account. If you

484
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 4: are picking the best person for the job. Come on,

485
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 4: you think all three of those people just happened to

486
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 4: be the best person for the job. I mean, it's

487
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 4: like what Bush said about Clarence Thomas. I mean, come on,

488
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 4: by the way, I'm not saying that you shouldn't consider

489
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 4: race and the apployment to the Supreme Court. I think

490
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 4: you should. I just don't think you should deny it.

491
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 4: And so here I think you're buying into the idea

492
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 4: that people don't act out of principle, and it was

493
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 4: an overreaction to the attack on Muller and his team,

494
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 4: of which you know, as you said, I was one,

495
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 4: and is the kind of thing that I think missed

496
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 4: an an opportunity to educate the public about why you're

497
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 4: not going to be looking at the party politics as

498
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 4: somebody that it's irrelevant in the department. I understand why

499
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 4: he did it. I just think it was the wrong decision.

500
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 4: And I would say that, by the way, even if

501
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 4: I thought that her report was flawless. It's just you

502
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 4: are buying into the idea that people cannot be impartial.

503
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,479
Speaker 4: And you know what, Judges can be impartial, Jurors can

504
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 4: be impartial, prosecutors can be impartial, and so you don't

505
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 4: sit there and pick a jury by saying, oh, listen,

506
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 4: it's a Republican on trial. So, by the way, all

507
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: of you have to be Republicans, you right, right.

508
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: The thing is democrats playing by these twenty twelve rules.

509
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: The assumption here is that her will not be a partisan,

510
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: that her will go into this committed to the truth

511
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: and I think this is true. And you tell me

512
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: if you think this is true when you read the report,

513
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: and I thought Joe Scarborough some so succinctly. He couldn't

514
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: indict him legally, so he indicted him politically. There's so

515
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: much editorializing, and so the reality is he's not there

516
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: to talk about what he thinks about Joe Biden. Neurologically,

517
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: he just isn't.

518
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 4: I agree, And I think there are two ways to

519
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 4: look at what Rob Herd did. I think in terms

520
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 4: of the substance of what he found, it was presented

521
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 4: in a way that I thought was misleading.

522
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: Will you talk about that a little more? Yeah.

523
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 4: So Ryan Goodman, who's a professor at NYU, with me,

524
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 4: we write a piece for Just Security. He's one of

525
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 4: the managing editors of it. It's a legal forum that's

526
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 4: really terrific as wonderful pieces on the website. So we

527
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 4: did a piece on Saturday where one of the things

528
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 4: we did is posited another way. The introduction could have

529
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 4: been written that would have been very clear as to

530
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 4: what it was finding and what it wasn't finding. What

531
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 4: we were reacting to was that in the news. I

532
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 4: won't say uniformly, but major outlets reported that Rob Hurr

533
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 4: found that Joseph Biden had in fact committed a felony,

534
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 4: but that they were not recommending prosecution because of discretionary

535
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 4: reasons like his age or his memory.

536
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: I mean, this is what somebody transmitted to Trump, which

537
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: made him so furious because he was like, well, then

538
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: they shouldn't prosecute.

539
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 4: Me either, right, So that is not what he found.

540
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 4: And we cite over and over again the passages from

541
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 4: this four hundred page plus report, but the introduction was

542
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 4: particularly inept in the way it was done or intentionally misleading.

543
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 4: I'm not going to speculate about the intent for it.

544
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 4: I'm just saying that one of the things we did

545
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 4: in our piece was we wrote a different way the

546
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: introduction could have been written that would have been one

547
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 4: hundred percent accurate and would have been very very clear

548
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: that there was evidence to open the case. Because of

549
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 4: course there was classified documents found where they shouldn't have been,

550
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 4: So there's a basis to open the case. But the

551
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 4: key issue is knowledge and intent and whether this was wilful,

552
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 4: meaning that you had knowledge of the documents, you knew

553
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 4: that they were classified, and national defense information, and you

554
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 4: knew you were doing something wrong, and over and over

555
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 4: and over again, one, two or three of those things

556
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 4: were not present, and over and over again. Her later

557
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 4: in the report says that, and he says there are

558
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 4: innocent explanations that could not be refuted. I'm paraphrasing, but

559
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: that's like page six. He says, they're innocent explanations we

560
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 4: cannot refute. In fact, he says they're innocent explanations. We

561
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 4: found evidence in favor of affirmative evidence to prove. You

562
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 4: know what that means as a prosecutor, you cannot go

563
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: forward if they're innocent explanations that you cannot refute. That

564
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 4: actually means innocence.

565
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: Right, right, But it's written in such.

566
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 4: A way that I mean, how about their innocent explanation

567
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 4: that are true?

568
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: Right?

569
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: So that's sort of one aspect which has gone less attention,

570
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 4: which is that the report's getting misreported, right.

571
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: Right, because reading comprehension is fucking hard. I say this

572
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: as someone who myself has failed.

573
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 4: And then the second piece, which of course has gone

574
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 4: lots of attention, is the embroidery, the sort of James

575
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 4: Comy two point zero aspect of this, which is positing

576
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 4: what would happen at a trial that's not going to happen, right,

577
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 4: You're not going to bring a case, but you're now

578
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 4: speculating at that trial, which I'm not going to bring,

579
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 4: it is possible that Joseph Biden will testify, which you

580
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 4: don't know, and if he testifies, he could say I

581
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 4: have a bad memory, which, by the way, is also

582
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 4: irrelevant because what his memory is like today is irrelevant

583
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 4: to what his memory was at the time that the

584
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 4: documents were found. And by the way, I'm also going

585
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 4: to speculate that at this trial that's not happening, where

586
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 4: he may testify, but I don't know if you will.

587
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 4: I'm going to then say he's going to to say

588
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 4: that I do have a bad memory. That was, by

589
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 4: the way, disproved within twenty four hours when Joseph Biden,

590
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 4: of course said I don't have a bad memory. So

591
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 4: everything about it was so gratuitous it just was not needed.

592
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 4: And that's where to go back to your point about

593
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 4: I worked on a special counsel investigation just to be

594
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 4: slightly in the weeds. Don't worry, I won't be too

595
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 4: boring or too long. A special counsel is a person

596
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 4: who is part of the Department of Justice. You are

597
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 4: not outside of the Department of Justice, and the Special

598
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 4: Council Rules require it's not optional. It is required that

599
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 4: you adhere to Department of Justice policies. Nothing about the

600
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 4: Special Council Rules exempt you. In fact, the Special Council

601
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 4: Rules say you can be fired if you do not

602
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 4: follow a Department of Justice guidelines. One of those is

603
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: that you do not denigrate people if you are not

604
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 4: charging them. I'm just giving paraphrasing it. In fact, you

605
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 4: know you can't denigrate people even if you are charging them.

606
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 4: People have gotten in trouble for bringing an indictment and

607
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 4: then giving a press conference where they then start denigrating somebody.

608
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 4: That's something you're not supposed to do. Your personal opinion,

609
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 4: those kinds of issues you leave aside, and as people

610
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 4: have probably heard here listening to this podcast, you speak

611
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 4: in court. And so this was just not adhering to

612
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 4: the best traditions of the Department. And I guess I

613
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 4: would say at the very least, it showed incredibly poor judgment.

614
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 4: And the best example of that is, even if you

615
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 4: thought it was appropriate to talk about Joe Biden's memory,

616
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 4: that you would choose to talk about his son. I

617
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 4: don't just don't know how that's relevant, even if you

618
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 4: thought it was relevant. I know, there's even if you

619
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 4: could cobble together some convoluted, fanciful theory that you would

620
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 4: choose that example tells you much more about Rob Her

621
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 4: than Joe Biden. It is so classless and shows such

622
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 4: a corese sense of propriety and respect. I mean, it

623
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 4: was truly shocking.

624
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: You know.

625
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 4: I kept on thinking of constantly saying, like, you know

626
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 4: who raised you? I could just see if I did

627
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 4: anything like that, my parents calling me up and saying,

628
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 4: I don't know who raised you, Like you know, you

629
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 4: weren't raised by wolves. That's not appropriate behavior.

630
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: It feels like when you read it, I think you

631
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: were the one who said this, but somebody said or

632
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: wrote that part of what it looks like is her

633
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: trying to have a long future in Trump world, that

634
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: there are so much gratuitous stuff with that. I mean,

635
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: do you think that's true?

636
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know what's going on in his head.

637
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 4: We certainly have seen instances where people have done that,

638
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 4: and it's like a tryout for a senior position in

639
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 4: the Justice Department, like the Bill Barr memo, right exactly.

640
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 4: I'm not going to go there as to what was

641
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 4: running through his head. I just know what's on paper,

642
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 4: and I can judge that I don't think one needs

643
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 4: to even get to his motivations that. I mean, you

644
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 4: can speculate there are certainly ways in which there could

645
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 4: be those improper motivations. But even if it was well intentioned,

646
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 4: it was still inappropriate.

647
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine it's well attention. Now Republicans are

648
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: incredibly excited and think that they have a sort of

649
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: great way to stick it to Biden. So they're going

650
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: to have now hearings where he's going to testify. And

651
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: will they be able to play the audio? Is there

652
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: a precedent for playing audio from these interviews. I've never

653
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: heard it.

654
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 4: But it's hard because I don't think we've seen all that.

655
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 4: But I mean, I'm sure there'll be an effort to

656
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: try and get the transcripts in the audio and to

657
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 4: play this on a loop. I have to say my

658
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 4: view on that issue, there's sort of the underlying issue

659
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 4: of does the president have memory problems that would make

660
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 4: it inappropriate or difficult for him to serve I don't

661
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 4: really care what Rob Hurr has to say. He's another person.

662
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 4: I mean, that's where people shouldn't buy into giving him

663
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 4: any more weight than I don't think people I didn't

664
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 4: care what James Comey had to say about Hillary Clinton.

665
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 4: We could all make our own judgment. I don't need

666
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 4: Rob her or James Comey to tell me that. I

667
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 4: think that's one where I can leave that aside. If

668
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 4: there's an issue that either Donald Trump or Joe Biden

669
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 4: has as to their fitness in terms of their policies,

670
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 4: their character, their memory, their health, whatever it is, they

671
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 4: can go ahead and talk about it, and they do.

672
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 4: There's some evidence, and that's the way they should deal

673
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 4: with it. To my mind, this is not a particular

674
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 4: point of interest, but.

675
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: Is there a precedent for playing the audio?

676
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 4: I don't know if it's in this exact context, but

677
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 4: you can certainly if you were calling somebody, you could

678
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 4: and there was audio or there was a transcript, you

679
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 4: could try and get that information and then use it.

680
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's a transcript of it. And I think

681
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 4: the White House is still considering what do because they

682
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 4: have to do a classification review. So I think there's

683
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 4: going to be more to come on that, but at

684
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 4: the very least there would be a transcript, but there

685
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 4: could be audio as well.

686
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: But the fact that this is being released, I mean,

687
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: they're like, I think about the Mueller Report, right, And

688
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: there was a lot of hymning and hawing about the

689
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: Mueller Report, and then in the end we saw Bill

690
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: Barr was like, this is too long to read. Don't worry,

691
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: it's fine. Our guy didn't do anything wrong. Trump World

692
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: politicized the report, and the way it was released there

693
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: was just much more sort of couching and partisanship around it.

694
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: I sort of almost wondered why Biden World. I mean,

695
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: I understand why they didn't do more of that, but

696
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: I wondered if Democrats are like still not meeting the

697
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: moment here.

698
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, so one guess what, Molly, I still remember that

699
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 4: me too. I actually I read this book about the

700
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 4: Mueller investigation and it starts with that. It starts with

701
00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 4: the moment.

702
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: And you were working for Mueller at that point.

703
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was working her Mueller. And I was in

704
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 4: a car when I heard about the bar summary, and

705
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 4: I just thought that the reports I was hearing over

706
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 4: the radio just had to be wrong. Everyone expected that

707
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 4: he was just going to release if you wanted to

708
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 4: do a summary. We wrote summaries of the report and

709
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 4: we thought, oh well we did that, so he can

710
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 4: just release those. And of course he wrote his own.

711
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 4: And by the way, just just say something positive about

712
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 4: Merrick Ireland. I mean, this is one where if you

713
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 4: want to know anytime a summary would be vindicated to

714
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 4: say this report vindicates the principle, it would be the

715
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 4: rob Her report vindicates Joe Biden. There was no crime there.

716
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 4: I mean, it's so similar to Mike Pens whereas Bill

717
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 4: Barr spun it the other way when he wrote a

718
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 4: purported summary that wasn't I have to say that's to

719
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 4: Merrick Garland's credit that he was not trying to do that.

720
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 4: He was like, you know what it is, what it is.

721
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,879
Speaker 4: I think where you can fault Merrick Ireland is that

722
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 4: he does have an obligation if he thinks that it

723
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 4: violated DIO rules, he could have pushed back. There would

724
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 4: have been political upheaval or that he would have been

725
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 4: accused of, you know, trying to change it or and

726
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 4: doing it for political reasons. But you know what, that's

727
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 4: why they pay you the big bucks. If you're not

728
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 4: doing it for political reasons, and you're doing it because

729
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 4: it is gratuitous smirching of someone who is not being charged,

730
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 4: that's your job, and the fact that you're going to

731
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 4: be falsely accused of doing it for political reasons is

732
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 4: not a reason not to do it. That goes very

733
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 4: much back to the initial appointment issue, where I think

734
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 4: you know what, pick the best person. And as a

735
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 4: friend of mine said in a nutshell, the appointment of

736
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 4: Rob Hurr was fundamentally a political decision, a small p

737
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 4: not a merit decision. You were not picking the best

738
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 4: person for the job. You were trying to find a

739
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 4: qualified person who would not get sort of blowback because

740
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 4: this person is of the same party as the person

741
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 4: being investigated.

742
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: Thank you, Andrew, thank you, thank you, thank you.

743
00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 4: You're welcome.

744
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 3: FEEDA.

745
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: Scotch Cole is a professor of government and sociology at

746
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: Harvard University and the author of russ Belt Union Blues.

747
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: While working class voters are turning away from the Democratic Party.

748
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Professor scotch Pol.

749
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 3: Thank you, nice to be here, so.

750
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: Great to have you. I just really wanted you to

751
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 1: come on the podcast to talk a little bit about

752
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: the Tea Party and how it relates to where we

753
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: are right now, because I think I feel like we

754
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: don't spend enough time talking about the sort of we

755
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: are the United States of Mnesia, and we don't spend

756
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: enough time talking about just the very recent history.

757
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 3: Right Well, you know, the Tea Party erupted, of course,

758
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 3: soon after Barack Obama was elected in two thousand and

759
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 3: eight took office in two thousand and nine, along with

760
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: the Democratic control of both Houses of Congress. At that time,

761
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 3: that kind of trifecta of control for one party was

762
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 3: a rare occurrence, and even while Barack Obama was running

763
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 3: for office, but certainly after he was elected, with Democrats

764
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 3: in control of the federal government, conservative people in the

765
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 3: United States were I would say startled and terrified, right

766
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: And within a very short period of time, the activists

767
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: among them dressed up in costumes and started running demonstrations

768
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: that suggested that the America they believed in was at

769
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 3: stake with this presidency, a message amplified by conservative media.

770
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 3: So we all know that demonstrations occurred from then on.

771
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 3: My colleagues and I also honed in on the fact

772
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 3: that over the next couple of years up to two thousand,

773
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 3: regularly meeting local tea party groups, volunteer groups of people

774
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 3: protesting Democrats, and the Obama presidency took to the field

775
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: in the United States, and by twenty eleven, my co

776
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 3: author of Vanessa Williamson and I were out in the

777
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 3: field in several states to the United States interviewing grassroots activists.

778
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 3: We weren't contenting ourselves with a national polls set or

779
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 3: with what national spokespeople on TV said. We were actually

780
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 3: talking to the grassroots activists and attending some of their

781
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 3: tea party meetings. Those people, older, white, conservative minded people,

782
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 3: overwhelmingly were fascinated by Donald Trump. While we were in

783
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 3: the field interview Oh wow. Even then, I can remember

784
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 3: one lady saying to me that she was intrigued because

785
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 3: grassroots tea partiers were not enthusiastic about Mitt Romney as

786
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 3: a possible candidate for the GOP in twenty twelve, and

787
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 3: that was the time when Donald Trump was making a

788
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: name for himself by challenging Barack Obama's birth certificate and

789
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: his citizenship, and that fascinated some of those grassroots activists.

790
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 3: And I remember thinking at the time, if he were running,

791
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 3: he would be a very attractive candidate for these people.

792
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 3: Now flash forward over the years, we know that surviving

793
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 3: Tea partiers, activists, people who told national posters that they

794
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 3: sympathized with the Tea Party wing of the Republican Party,

795
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 3: and ultimately people elected to Congress, especially after twenty ten,

796
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: who considered themselves Tea Party supporters, they have been all

797
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 3: along and still are if they're alive and are still

798
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 3: in office. They are the core of the most enthusiastic

799
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: MAGA supporters. And I can say that partly because I

800
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 3: continued personally to go into the field and interview very

801
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 3: conservative people after Donald Trump was elected and those still meeting.

802
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: There were still some Tea Parties meeting as late as

803
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen. They were gung ho for Donald Trump. But

804
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 3: we also know from national polls in recent years that

805
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 3: those who say they were active in the Tea Party

806
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 3: you're sympathetic with it, are very exercised about immigration and

807
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 3: very supportive of Donald Trump and his attempts to build

808
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 3: a wall around America.

809
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: I want to go back to what you said a

810
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: little bit earlier when we were talking about this, because

811
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: I don't know that I realized exactly the timing on this.

812
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: They didn't like Mitt Romney because he felt insufficiently I

813
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: want to say racist, But what was the complaint about

814
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney.

815
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think the accurate term is ethno nationalists because

816
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 3: Tea Party people have been and MAGA people still are

817
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 3: very exercised about immigration into the United States, particularly by

818
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 3: people of non European origin, as well as upset about

819
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 3: African Americans gaining political power. This is an ethno nationalist

820
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 3: view of the world that you could call racist. I

821
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 3: prefer the eth non nationalist term. But look, Mitt Romney

822
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: was not satisfactory to Tea partiers for the same reason

823
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: that all of the people running against Donald Trump in

824
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen on that were dispensed by him one after

825
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 3: another and their Republican primaries were not as acceptable. There's

826
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: a sense that the Republican establishment has not responded over

827
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 3: the years, or didn't until recently, until it was trumpified

828
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 3: to what are the most intense concerns of grassroots conservatives,

829
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 3: and those concerns certainly included putting a stop to immigration,

830
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 3: making sure that black political power in and through the

831
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 3: Democratic Party does not go too far for some of them,

832
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 3: maybe about half going back to a more traditional family

833
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: roles and limiting access to abortion and other kinds of

834
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 3: rights for women.

835
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: Right and birth control goes with that, right.

836
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, really a whole set of it. And also

837
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: just tension out well professional women.

838
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: I can't believe we're having this conversation.

839
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton was in some ways the perfect emblem of that. So,

840
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 3: I mean, all of these concerns are kind of piled

841
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 3: on top of each other and have created a movement

842
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: that I think goes in a straight line from the

843
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 3: Tea Party to the Maga movement, although the Maga movement

844
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 3: includes more younger men than the TEEP originally did. That

845
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 3: they think the kind of America they believe in is

846
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 3: being stolen, is being taken away from them. And Donald

847
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 3: Trump is admired because he tells it like it is

848
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 3: and because he's promising to bring back the real America.

849
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: And one Tea part of her that I interviewed as

850
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 3: late as twenty seventeen, still meeting in his tea party,

851
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 3: and when I finally got around to the end of

852
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 3: the interview and I said, well, you know, I'm not

853
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 3: sure he's really going to build that wall. My interview

854
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 3: is a very very I'm listening. I'm not preaching people,

855
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 3: but toward the end of an interview, I will kind

856
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: of gently he said, it doesn't matter because his heart's

857
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 3: the right place. He's trying, and you know, I want

858
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 3: to say that there's nothing foolish about that. I think

859
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: people in general partly make decisions about politicians in terms

860
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 3: of whether they're trying, whether they seem to be on

861
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 3: your side, whether they seem to express your value. So

862
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: I didn't think that there was anything scandalous about what

863
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 3: he said or surprising, but that's what he said.

864
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: I think that's a really important point, right, that this

865
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: is not you know, people don't vote for candidates because

866
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: I mean, they know that politics are not an ATM.

867
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: When we talk about this group, I always think of

868
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: this as the kind of America's like, and maybe this

869
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: is overly optimistic, as America's last gasp before a possible

870
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: multi racial democracy that we are in the sort of

871
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: democratic growing pains small day. Do you think that's right

872
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: or do you think I'm being overly optimistic? And what

873
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: supports or doesn't this idea.

874
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 3: I'm teaching a course right now in which we're looking

875
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 3: back at that period from the end of the Civil

876
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 3: War through the turn of the twentieth century, when a

877
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 3: multi racial democracy, or possibilities for it briefly emerged, actually

878
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: took shape during congressional reconstruction, and then was brutally rolled

879
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 3: back and ultimately snuffed out legally for decades. Now I

880
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 3: have to hope I'm an old lady now so I

881
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 3: won't live to see it that nothing like that could happen.

882
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 3: Now things move faster, but we are definitely in a

883
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 3: period where outright reversal, not just stopping progress toward a

884
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: multiracial democracy, but outright reversal of the rule of law

885
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 3: and of participatory accountability for our government is at stake.

886
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 3: And that's because once Donald Trump was elected, and it

887
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 3: was a flucal election in many ways, a lot of

888
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 3: things had to come together to give him that minority

889
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 3: when through the Electoral College in twenty sixteen. From then on,

890
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 3: it's not just Donald Trump, is it. It's an entire

891
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 3: political party that has bought into even the most extreme

892
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 3: Harvard graduates, like a least Deefonic, are suggesting that we

893
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 3: should have what amounts to a dictatorship in this country.

894
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 3: There are a lot of people now invested in the

895
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 3: project of holding minority authoritarian power and exercising it with

896
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 3: cruelty and fierceness against those who are opposed. And that

897
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 3: has happened in US history before, it has happened in

898
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: many countries' histories before, it could happen here.

899
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm struck by what you're saying, because it does

900
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: seem Trump was just Trump, right, he was not the

901
00:47:53,960 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: party until systematically he and his people basically removed everyone

902
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: who wasn't him. I think you saw it really in

903
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: this most recent primary contest, right, You did see DeSantis

904
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: ran as mini Trump, and I actually was more anxious

905
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: about DeSantis because I felt like DeSantis had taken the

906
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: scary authoritarianism that is trump Ism, but was also much smarter. Ultimately,

907
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: Trump's people were attached to him in a way that

908
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: couldn't be transferred to DeSantis. Is that a good sign?

909
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: Or am I just being optimistic to be optimistic.

910
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 3: DeSantis, I don't know how smart he is and an

911
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 3: unlikable and non entertaining person if there ever was one,

912
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: and I would not argue that he embraced all of

913
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 3: trump Ism. I think this whole anti Dei thing is

914
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 3: a middle class version of trump Ism. It's people who

915
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 3: attended colleges and felt like they weren't in the mainstream,

916
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 3: you know, at the Stephonics stands up for that to

917
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 3: thinking that the fight over Harvard is the I don't

918
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 3: think ordinary grassroots Trump supporters are all that interested in

919
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 3: that battle. I think they are much more interested in

920
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 3: blocking immigration, in carrying through kind of the use of

921
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 3: government power to regulate what they would like to see

922
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 3: as the ability to win elections by real Americans, which

923
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 3: they think of themselves as, and getting back at those

924
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 3: who they feel have dissed them, who have taken the

925
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 3: reigns of cultural and economic dynamism in this country and

926
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 3: pass them by. Remember, people who were overwhelmed for Trump

927
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 3: and therefore living communities where everybody likes Trump are exurban

928
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 3: to not so much rural as small town. There's a

929
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 3: sharp geographic divide. And of course those are areas that

930
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 3: have a lot of extra leverage in the electoral College,

931
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 3: the Senate, and in gerrymandered legislatures.

932
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: So those are the states with not a lot of

933
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: electoral votes.

934
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 3: Well, they're also the people who are beyond the circle

935
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 3: of counties around Philadelphia and Pennsylvania, which I've studied closely.

936
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: You know, they're very competitive.

937
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they captured.

938
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: Both in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan in twenty sixteen, and

939
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 3: Joe Biden only kind of inched his way back to

940
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 3: better margins in some of those outlying areas. It starts

941
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 3: right at the edge of the inner ring of suburbs

942
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 3: around the metropolitan in every state.

943
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: Is it right to believe, not morally right, but correct

944
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: to believe that what is happening in this country is

945
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: a divide largely not always true, but that people who

946
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: are more educated tend to be Democrats and people who

947
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: are less educated tend to be Republicans, with the exception

948
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: of the very wealthy.

949
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 3: Well, both parties are cross income and cross to a

950
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 3: lesser degree cross educational credential coalitions. The Democrats are a

951
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 3: coalition of college educated, with more and more college educated

952
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 3: who used to be moderate Republicans moving toward the Democrats,

953
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 3: especially in dynamic metro Politan areas. But they are also

954
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 3: dependent on a constituency of lower income people of color

955
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 3: who live in the cities, and those people are drifting

956
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 3: away to some degree. The Republicans are a coalition of

957
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 3: I would say small business type people, construction type people,

958
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,919
Speaker 3: middle class people in more religious areas, more right wing

959
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 3: religious areas of the country, and a fair number of

960
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 3: blue collar workers. Although I think our tendency to think

961
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 3: of all Trumpers as non college educated is not quite right.

962
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 3: It's right overall, but there are a lot of college

963
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 3: educated people that are bought into this.

964
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: Which is a terrifying sentence in itself. Right, talk to

965
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: me about the dependency Democrats have on these lower income

966
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: voters and why they're leaving the Democratic Party.

967
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 3: Well, I think some of the men among them are tempted,

968
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 3: but let's think about it. I mean, the Democrats have

969
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 3: been and there's a new paper out by Jacob Packer

970
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 3: and Paul Pearson that really does a brilliant job of

971
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 3: showing that the Democratic Coalition has been reinvented recently among

972
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 3: using government spending pretty aggressively to both address concerns that

973
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 3: college educated voters have, like the environment, and to try

974
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,479
Speaker 3: to deal with some of the lower income people's needs,

975
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 3: particularly their needs for family supports. So the Democratic Party

976
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: is not they're not AOC, but they've put together a

977
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 3: more progressive economic program that speaks to the needs of

978
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 3: a very broad cross class coalition in the metropolitan areas.

979
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 3: The trouble is the Republicans have enough power to block

980
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 3: a lot of that. And if you look at not

981
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 3: just what happens in a lot of state legislatures, but

982
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 3: look at what happened with Build Back Better. It started

983
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 3: out with a really bold redistributive, that is, equality enhancing

984
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: set of proposals, and as it finally made it through,

985
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 3: a lot of the things like the Chin tax Credit,

986
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:06,479
Speaker 3: which had reduced poverty enormously, were stripped away, partly because

987
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 3: of Republicans and partly because of Joe Manchin. If you

988
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,479
Speaker 3: can't deliver, if you promise and you can't deliver, which

989
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 3: is the Democrat's dilemma. They can get to fifty to fifty,

990
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 3: but they can't quite get enough federal power to deliver,

991
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: and they've lost the courts. That is something that Trump

992
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 3: rives on. Trump thrives on the idea that appeals to

993
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 3: many non college people that oh, if just a powerful

994
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 3: president would just cut through all this nonsense and just

995
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 3: do things. And of course Trump will promise anything to anybody.

996
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 3: He will in this election. He's going to promise everything,

997
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 3: and a lot of people don't even pay attention till

998
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 3: the last minute. And of course the media system completely

999
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 3: magnifies everything Trump says while mainly broadcasting legal cases that

1000
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 3: the college educated people are following, which really turn off

1001
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 3: the color people. I mean, they're just not interested in

1002
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 3: whether the fourteenth Amendment is officers or come on, you know,

1003
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 3: let's face it, that's ridiculous. So Trump rides, I'm not

1004
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 3: getting things done.

1005
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much, professor. This was so interesting,

1006
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: and so I hope you will come back.

1007
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 3: Sure, let's make sure we don't feel one of the

1008
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 3: cases that the college educating are following.

1009
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: No Mo.

1010
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon, Maley, Jong Fast. You know what violence I love.

1011
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 3: There's only one type, Crazy Texas Republican on crazy Texas

1012
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 3: Republican violence the best.

1013
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: It's worth remembering that as much as Democrats and Republicans

1014
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: have iire between each other, this Republican party really really

1015
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: has a lot of ire. So here we go. Ken

1016
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:59,240
Speaker 1: Paxton ag You will remember they tried to impeach him once.

1017
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 1: He is trolling John Cornyan, who again this is like

1018
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: Pexton is Maga maga, So he's mad at John Cornyan

1019
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: for voting to send aid to Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan.

1020
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,399
Speaker 1: The thinking here is that sending this humanitarian aid, some

1021
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: of this as military aid, will prevent further conflicts, but

1022
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter because maga Ken Paxton wants to score

1023
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: the points with the megabase and so he is now

1024
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: declared war on John Cornan. There are no winners here,

1025
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: only losers. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1026
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the

1027
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos.

1028
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

1029
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks

1030
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 1: for listening.