Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, your
Speaker 1: podcast that's sometimes about sports, which I had no idea
Speaker 1: what happened when I first started a show about Cool
Speaker 1: People Did Cool Stuff. But actually, it turns out is
Speaker 1: a major part of Cool People Did Cool Stuff is
Speaker 1: the interaction between various types of rebellion and various types
Speaker 1: of group athleticism and or sports. So my guest is
Speaker 1: Shiv around us. Hi, Shieve, how are you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. Thank you for having me mic blay
Speaker 2: back again.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, in this day. That's totally a different day
Speaker 1: because we don't just record in a row. Why would
Speaker 1: someone record for three hours in a row? That's a
Speaker 1: really long time. Sophie's our producer. Hi, Sophie, Hi, And.
Speaker 3: I think it was inevitable a sports thing, as your
Speaker 3: producer is me and your editor is Ian Johnson.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Chiv is a science fiction author who
Speaker 1: you all can read stories by. I've done it. I
Speaker 1: approve of reading shifts stories. And one of the stories
Speaker 1: that's not science fiction, even though it has a superhero,
Speaker 1: is the story of Gama, which we is going to
Speaker 1: mean nothing to you if you don't go back and
Speaker 1: listen to part one. But who would do that? Who
Speaker 1: would look at an episode that literally says part two
Speaker 1: is the first thing in the title and think that's
Speaker 1: where I'm going to start, Because it's not where I
Speaker 1: would start, because I can't even read comic books because
Speaker 1: they're not in order, and I can't do it. I can't.
Speaker 1: I have to start at the beginning of things. I
Speaker 1: don't know how you all are with this. Can you
Speaker 1: go non linearly into stories?
Speaker 2: Not at all?
Speaker 1: He's shaking. Yeah, yeah, it's very.
Speaker 2: Hard for me. But if you listening and you really
Speaker 2: don't want to go click the other one because you
Speaker 2: like our voices that much, you don't want to be
Speaker 2: denied them for a second. For this way, Gama was
Speaker 2: cool wrestler, and he did a bunch of cool things.
Speaker 2: We let him being part of a group that was
Speaker 2: going to London to wrestle. If you want to know
Speaker 2: why that's a big deal, then you got to listen
Speaker 2: to the previous episode. We're going to pick it up
Speaker 2: when he lands in London.
Speaker 1: Let's do it when he does with the others.
Speaker 2: They landed about nineteen ten, and the reception they got
Speaker 2: was a lot different than the one they'd been led
Speaker 2: to expect, I think because ben.
Speaker 1: Jon was really nice to them and no one was racist.
Speaker 2: Well, I was just talking about the fact that that
Speaker 2: actually is contextually true in the sense that they were
Speaker 2: Weirdly enough, the reception was in many ways less racist
Speaker 2: than you might be led to expect, although obviously it
Speaker 2: was Okay, yeah, one weird side effect or some whatever
Speaker 2: you want to call it of the whole thing was
Speaker 2: like their biggest a lot of their biggest supporters during
Speaker 2: this entire trip were conservative magazines and publications, and that
Speaker 2: is not how I expect conservative magazines and publications to
Speaker 2: react in general too, foreign people arriving in your land irrespective.
Speaker 1: Of m Yeah, and how did that happen?
Speaker 2: R I don't know. I don't actually have a good
Speaker 2: explanation for it, like at any level, but it is
Speaker 2: what it is, and so I am cut bound to
Speaker 2: report it as it was. Okay, okay, So but yeah,
Speaker 2: the thing, like, I get the feeling for Benjamin he
Speaker 2: was like one of those promoters, Like he had the
Speaker 2: hallmark of all truly bad agents and promoters, which is
Speaker 2: that he was way better at selling his own clients
Speaker 2: on stuff than he wasn't selling the public on his clients.
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh huh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and although he was actually really much better at
Speaker 2: selling his clients on themselves than he was at selling
Speaker 2: the public on his clients. Yeah, is perhaps a better
Speaker 2: way to put it. So in any case, there were
Speaker 2: like no reality because for matches with the Indian Rushes,
Speaker 2: so they showed up and they're just like sitting cooling
Speaker 2: their heels waiting, you know. They established quarters in a routine,
Speaker 2: and they actually took a cook with them from India,
Speaker 2: so they were getting their food and everything. That was
Speaker 2: like an integral part of the whole deal apparently. So
Speaker 2: this went on for so long that Health and Strength
Speaker 2: magazine even ran a story on them. It was This
Speaker 2: is interesting for those of you who follow professional wrestling.
Speaker 2: It was called the Indian Invasion and professional wrestling all right,
Speaker 2: so invasion storylines are a big deal. They happen all
Speaker 2: the time. Honestly, maybe the first time reference to it
Speaker 2: was used to actually like try and sell a match.
Speaker 2: So this may have been the birth of the concept
Speaker 2: of the invasion storyline in wrestling. And as you'll see,
Speaker 2: the hid the Golden Bell. Sorry go ahead, yes, Like
Speaker 2: if you want to draw the lines, they're there.
Speaker 1: Oh I do. I don't know if it's real or not,
Speaker 1: but I want to draw the line exactly.
Speaker 2: So anyway, so this article by health instance tries to
Speaker 2: drum up interest in finding people to like face them
Speaker 2: in fights. Like there's a long description of their routine,
Speaker 2: in their training, their diet. It makes it the point
Speaker 2: that they don't use dumbells or any modern equipment. And
Speaker 2: basically everyone who came into contact with their lifestyle and
Speaker 2: training and diet was immediately like blown away. Over the years,
Speaker 2: it still happens. And part of the article was a
Speaker 2: challenge printed there by the Indians to all comers, in
Speaker 2: which there was a particular promise by Gama that he
Speaker 2: would throw three men of any weight off their feet
Speaker 2: in thirty minutes, and if he failed, he would pay
Speaker 2: five sovereigns from his own salary to anyone who does
Speaker 2: not who he did not. In fact, if anyone could
Speaker 2: prove that they arrived and they would deny the chance
Speaker 2: to compete against him, he would pay the five from
Speaker 2: his own earnings. And hell yeah, So this is actually
Speaker 2: like a good example of why Benjamin was basically a
Speaker 2: shit promoter, because a good promoter would never have allowed
Speaker 2: this to happen because by doing this, what they were
Speaker 2: doing is they were kind of intruding a lot into
Speaker 2: the world of professional wrestling, which is where you have
Speaker 2: challenges of this nature because like people who weren't into
Speaker 2: professional wrestling, they generally like conduct the business a little
Speaker 2: bit differently. So professional wrestling itself was like in a
Speaker 2: fledgling stage in England right now. They had been like
Speaker 2: one successful tour with George Hackenschmidt earlier, but like it
Speaker 2: was basically like a music hall, show business kind of
Speaker 2: thing at this point, right and the Indians and Gama
Speaker 2: especially were not here to do anything of that sort.
Speaker 2: Like they wanted to like fight people and win like
Speaker 2: in genuine fights. They did not care like how good
Speaker 2: it was or what the takings were, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2: So yeah, for a while, like the only offers they
Speaker 2: were getting were like basically to do with matches of
Speaker 2: this sort, which they were not doing. So essentially there
Speaker 2: was no traction.
Speaker 1: In fact, is that because people were like is that
Speaker 1: because people were afraid to fight them because they knew
Speaker 1: they would lose, Or is that because people were like, no,
Speaker 1: we want to do weird stage stuff because we want
Speaker 1: to wear costumes and be like the Americans or like
Speaker 1: what's happening.
Speaker 2: Well, at this point, it's like no one's ever heard
Speaker 2: of these guys, So like the reputed guys are like,
Speaker 2: why should we wrestle these guys who nobody's ever heard of,
Speaker 2: Like they've never done anything, And the only guys who
Speaker 2: want to wrestle them are the guys who want to
Speaker 2: put on a show. And so these guys don't want
Speaker 2: to put on a show, they want to like wrestle
Speaker 2: the guys who are like champions and so on and
Speaker 2: so forth, Like they've basically come here to leave with
Speaker 2: the title of best wrestler in the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's his plan.
Speaker 2: That's how they sell him on going here, is like
Speaker 2: you will get to face European champions and prove you
Speaker 2: are the greatest in the world. Right, And I'm sure
Speaker 2: the fact he had those three draws weighed on it.
Speaker 2: But anyway, so to a large extent, like the interest
Speaker 2: in the Indians was basically confined to papers, and a
Speaker 2: large amount of that was basically to do with their diet, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: can let me give you an instance, like Gama's daily
Speaker 2: diet has been recorded as the following I'm going to
Speaker 2: read this out because I wrote it down because it's
Speaker 2: so exceptional. Six chickens are an extract of eleven pounds
Speaker 2: of mutton mixed to a quarter pounds of clarified butter,
Speaker 2: ten liters of milk, half a liter of fruit juice,
Speaker 2: and other ingredients to promote good digestion, pound and a
Speaker 2: half of crushed almond paste made into a tonic drink,
Speaker 2: and another half a liter of clarified butter. This was
Speaker 2: the daily diet.
Speaker 1: You know, And this has gone a long way from
Speaker 1: his plant based days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's essense like high fat, have protein,
Speaker 2: high car yeah, everything, and it basically to train at
Speaker 2: that level, you have to do this and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: his training was the other part that was blowing people away.
Speaker 2: Like Percy Longerst was like a writer on boxing especially
Speaker 2: but also he was actually big supporter of the Indians
Speaker 2: being in and people and trying to like make people
Speaker 2: fight them and stuff. And he was a huge fan
Speaker 2: of them. And he showed up once to like write
Speaker 2: a story and he tells the story of how like
Speaker 2: he wanted to talk to Gama, but the manager was
Speaker 2: like Gama's just gone out to training, so he's like,
Speaker 2: I'll wait, I have half an hour, and everybody starts
Speaker 2: laughing at him. So then he apparently goes out to
Speaker 2: the field and he sees Gama starting to do these
Speaker 2: squads and he's like, at some point, it's like it's
Speaker 2: just going on and just going on. So then he
Speaker 2: starts timing so that he times it for another twenty minutes.
Speaker 2: Then he goes back inside, does an entire conversation with
Speaker 2: another journalist, leaves, and he's like, why when I left,
Speaker 2: that guy was still going so like, yeah, so Gama
Speaker 2: was like known to do some extremely intense thining, Like
Speaker 2: I think he used to do his actual like training
Speaker 2: routine back in India used to be like used to
Speaker 2: do about like four thousand of these a day, about
Speaker 2: three thousand of these push ups a day, and then
Speaker 2: he used to wrestle thirty other wrestlers every day, like
Speaker 2: he do thirty bouts a day or training. This is
Speaker 2: daily training.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as the story goes, Gama has never lost about
Speaker 2: in training ever, Like he's literally never lost about all right,
Speaker 2: which is pretty intense right anyway, So at this point,
Speaker 2: like these writers who are marveling at this kind of
Speaker 2: stuff are like the only support they have. In fact,
Speaker 2: like John Bull, which is like a pretty conservative magazine,
Speaker 2: they were like full on in support of like the
Speaker 2: Indian wrestling and so on. Like I still don't understand it.
Speaker 1: Is it because they like wanted the Westerners to like
Speaker 1: win and prove something or was it just like we
Speaker 1: like manly stuff and let's be honest, these guys are
Speaker 1: pretty manly.
Speaker 2: Well I don't because I don't understand it genuinely, because
Speaker 2: like they would carry articles about stuff like bemoaning the
Speaker 2: lack of opponents and saying shame on you for not
Speaker 2: being willing to face these guys and talk, and then
Speaker 2: talk about how Gama had like lots of offers to
Speaker 2: take part in like you know, take a fall for
Speaker 2: money and take part in professional wrestling, and he would
Speaker 2: refuse because he refused to understand the concept even Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then in this article they also carry like another
Speaker 2: challenge from Gama, like ironically yeah, in which he lays
Speaker 2: out even higher stakes and he also like started naming
Speaker 2: famous wrestlers by name, like Frank Gotch who's American, a
Speaker 2: guy called Stanislaw Zibisco who's like a big deal in Europe,
Speaker 2: like I think it was Jack. The other people challenged
Speaker 2: by Gama in this in this were the world and
Speaker 2: in GPS Japanese wrestling, and he vowed that he would
Speaker 2: throw thirty Japanese wrestlers in sixty minutes. He also said,
Speaker 2: the Japanese champion, I will throw you ten times in
Speaker 2: thirty minutes for one hundred bucks a pop. So yeah,
Speaker 2: so it was like this. So this time the challenges
Speaker 2: seem to have worked because like they started getting some matches,
Speaker 2: and they started and they started doing like spectacular stuff
Speaker 2: already it's patches. Like so there's this one match against
Speaker 2: like the Scottish guy and he's about like fifty six
Speaker 2: pounds heavier than Gama, and then apparently Gama they start
Speaker 2: like the guy flips him almost immediately. So this guy
Speaker 2: decides at that point, look, I'm not gonna win, but
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lose. So what I'll do is like
Speaker 2: he has to put my shoulders on my back, my
Speaker 2: back down. So she decides to like hug the mat
Speaker 2: like this, like face.
Speaker 1: Down, and the Scottish guy does the.
Speaker 2: Scottish guy yeah, okay, crab turtle position whatever. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: so Gaba apparently grabs him by the way, he just
Speaker 2: flips him around. It's over, so like he doesn't have
Speaker 2: any problem like flipping this guy with like fifty six
Speaker 2: pounds eaverier than him. Gama's about two hundred pounds. Just yeah,
Speaker 2: this guy's about two fifty six. Okay, So this stuff happens,
Speaker 2: so like there's a little bit of buzz happening around,
Speaker 2: like oh cool cool. Essentially, like what basically happens is
Speaker 2: this is what he had done to Gulab, and Gulam
Speaker 2: didn't have a count and it happened. So at this
Speaker 2: point they actually get one big ticket kind of like opponent,
Speaker 2: which is an American his name. This is a wrestler
Speaker 2: called Benjamin doc Roller. Now doc Roller is a very
Speaker 2: interesting character. We've described a few people as colorful so far,
Speaker 2: like and he's up there with all of them. So
Speaker 2: he's apparently a real doctor, like he got his degree
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania or something. But he was also really fond
Speaker 2: of like wrestling and like American football, and at some
Speaker 2: point he decided that breaking bones was more suited to
Speaker 2: his temperament than mending them, so he decided to do
Speaker 2: this instead. Even though he was a doctor.
Speaker 1: Usually people go the other way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so apparently fairly good wrestlers, like he's quite renowned
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, and public perception England was on
Speaker 2: rollers side because he's the established name. Now, in truth,
Speaker 2: there was actually a massive gulf between like these wrestlers
Speaker 2: and the Indian wrestlers, and the only people really realized it,
Speaker 2: like Sporting Life and some of the media, Yeah, like
Speaker 2: do you think they wrote about like doing training for
Speaker 2: this fight. Like there's a fairly well regarded English wrestler
Speaker 2: who got into sort of a scrap and they like,
Speaker 2: let's settle it in the ring with essentially the guy
Speaker 2: who was considered the weakest of the Indian wrestlers, of
Speaker 2: whom Gama was considered the strongest. So these two guys
Speaker 2: meet and he's like, the Indian guy won it in
Speaker 2: six seconds. Yeah, and then he's like, subsequently, we watched
Speaker 2: training the guy who won in six seconds, Gama demolished
Speaker 2: that guy in like under two minutes. So like that
Speaker 2: is the gulf between like their best and like whatever
Speaker 2: our middle.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, because these people are this is all
Speaker 1: the age of five. Yeah, that is all they are.
Speaker 1: I mean, they are people and they have their motions
Speaker 1: and stuff, right, but like they live and breathe this stuff,
Speaker 1: and everyone else is like, this is my career. It
Speaker 1: is just yeah, it's a massive difference.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Anyway, there's a perception that this fight with
Speaker 2: Roller was for something called a John Bull tournament. It's
Speaker 2: an error, like John Bull sponsored the fight and put
Speaker 2: up a like a prize, but there was like no
Speaker 2: belt anything. So I feel like there's a good time
Speaker 2: to correct that. It was like a two out of
Speaker 2: three falls fight, which basically means you got to pin
Speaker 2: your opponent two times, and like whoever gets two pins
Speaker 2: out of the three attempts you'll fight in will be
Speaker 2: the winner. No stranglehold, no full nelson. There was some
Speaker 2: of that, and I think this isn't about August at
Speaker 2: this point, where we've reached August of the year twenty
Speaker 2: nineteen ten. Okay, at the way, Gama is about two
Speaker 2: hundred poundstone. This guy what's his name rollers about two
Speaker 2: hundred and I would say thirty five or so pounds.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going.
Speaker 2: To and be as brief as I can about the fight.
Speaker 2: The record of the fight shows that like the first
Speaker 2: pin happened in one minute forty seconds for Gama. But
Speaker 2: this actually doesn't point out the fact like he had
Speaker 2: two earlier pins within the one minute forty seconds which
Speaker 2: were considered out of bounds. So anyway, so after this,
Speaker 2: Roller comes back again for the next round, which takes
Speaker 2: about nine minutes.
Speaker 1: All right, wow, okay, yeah that's a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the fight's done in about ten minutes. Like,
Speaker 2: and after the fight, Roller was like, I broke my ribs,
Speaker 2: which is why in the one of those first two falls,
Speaker 2: which is why I couldn't do well.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now this is where it gets interesting because among rollers
Speaker 2: many talents was breaking ribs every time he lost it something.
Speaker 2: It's like there was a newspaper that once put it
Speaker 2: and I'm going to quote here. Doc has broken ribs
Speaker 2: in London, Seattle, Philadelphia, and several other seaports, both in
Speaker 2: football and in wrestling, and last night honored Ottawa, the
Speaker 2: capital of Ontario, by having his slats cracked there.
Speaker 1: So did you grow up with the Probably not. The
Speaker 1: middle school kids are very aware and of Marilyn Manson
Speaker 1: removing one of his own ribs. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: this is all I'm thinking about when this guy just
Speaker 1: really wants to get rid of his ribs as fast
Speaker 1: as possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, all right, so here's the thing. He did
Speaker 2: go to the hospital at Charing Cross after the govern match,
Speaker 2: but he had visited hospitals in the past for his
Speaker 2: fake ribs, so there's that. However, he did obtain a
Speaker 2: doctor's certificate this time, saying his sixth and seventh ribs
Speaker 2: oh it, seventh and eighth were cracked.
Speaker 1: So wait, so he's mostly lying about getting his ribs broken,
Speaker 1: but Gama actually broke his ribs.
Speaker 2: Well possibly, but I just want to point out he
Speaker 2: was like a doctor.
Speaker 1: Oh so probably.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, all these options are on the table.
Speaker 2: You can believe what you choose to believe. Like it is,
Speaker 2: I think this is about.
Speaker 1: A good time to believe the Marilyn Manson version.
Speaker 2: Like, I just think this is a good time to
Speaker 2: get off this roller coaster. Yeah. And uh, anyway, so
Speaker 2: after the end of that match, uh, like literally, I
Speaker 2: mean like literally immediately after the end of that match,
Speaker 2: a guy emerges from the crowd like shakes gaba By
Speaker 2: and congratulates him, and suddenly an announcer calls out that
Speaker 2: this stranger is going to be facing Gama soon, Okay,
Speaker 2: And it turns out this stranger is the famous Stanislaw Zibisco.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, that's the maybe check guy you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, is there a check of Polish one of the two? Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure anyway, Zibisco is one of the
Speaker 2: most fascinating characters in maybe European history in a lot
Speaker 2: of ways. Like he's essentially he was a strong man
Speaker 2: in Poland I think it was a well, either Poland
Speaker 2: of Czechoslovak which when it was. And then at some
Speaker 2: point he gets into Greco Roman wrestling and he gets
Speaker 2: really really good at it, Like he wins a bunch
Speaker 2: of like he wins tournaments and stuff. Like he's considered
Speaker 2: like the European Greco Roman Champa. He was widely considered
Speaker 2: by many people to be the greatest defensive wrestler in
Speaker 2: the world. Like, apparently getting Zibisco off his feet was
Speaker 2: like basically impossible. It's really or at least really really
Speaker 2: hard to do. He there was a whole debate happening
Speaker 2: whether it was him or Frank Gotch is the best
Speaker 2: wrestler in the world and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like.
Speaker 2: What happens is At some point, Zibisco partners up with
Speaker 2: a promoter called Charles Cochran who's like, he's like the
Speaker 2: huckster's hustler.
Speaker 1: Really okay, this guy.
Speaker 2: So they decide to do a series of fights in England,
Speaker 2: right Greco Roman Champion and stuff. And then at one
Speaker 2: of these fights, this Turkish guy shows up whose name
Speaker 2: is Kadim Suliman, and Kaim Suliman calls himself the Champion
Speaker 2: of the Bosphorus. His father is a wealthy carpet dealer.
Speaker 2: He's there with his manager and he's really really rude
Speaker 2: to Zubisco and challenges him to a fight. Okay, they
Speaker 2: work it out risk you know, there's negotiations for several days.
Speaker 2: They meet at the offices of a paper to negotiate it,
Speaker 2: break off negotiations. Finally a fight is set. Fight eventually happens,
Speaker 2: and it's like it's dogwater. Everyone hates it. It's boring
Speaker 2: as hell. Yeah, it's bad. After the fight, someone leaks
Speaker 2: to the papers that there is no Korean Suleiman. The
Speaker 2: guy who was supposed to be Korean Suliman, son of
Speaker 2: Turkish carpet dealer, Champion of the Bosphorus was this Bulgarian wrestler,
Speaker 2: which it turns out was in the employee of Zibisco.
Speaker 2: His current address was Zibisco's previous address. His bills and
Speaker 2: mail were being forwarded to Zibisco's current address.
Speaker 1: So the world of professional wrestling is sneaking hands of
Speaker 1: the world of actual wrestling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Charles Cocks, like, you can smell the man
Speaker 2: at work here, So that happens right like now. The
Speaker 2: reason I'm mentioning all this is I feel like one
Speaker 2: of the reasons Zivisco is taking up this challenge from
Speaker 2: Gama is I think he wanted to re establish a
Speaker 2: little bit of his own credibility because.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he just he did some bullshit and got caught.
Speaker 2: It is interesting that at later points in his life
Speaker 2: Zisco basically became a professional wrestler. He's considered one of
Speaker 2: the greatest professional wrestlers all the time. Okay by some
Speaker 2: I don't know by some at least. Uh Anyway, So
Speaker 2: now what's happening is my aman Ziisco is going to
Speaker 2: be facing Grama. But before that, Gama's younger brother we
Speaker 2: mentioned name, his name is Imam Bucksh. He has to
Speaker 2: face this well, we very well regarded Swiss wrestler called
Speaker 2: Johann Lem Okay, I'm now going to challenge myself by
Speaker 2: trying to make our conversation about that fight shorter than
Speaker 2: the fight. It's going to be hard because the fight
Speaker 2: itself was one minute in four seconds. But basically Lim
Speaker 2: tried everything he had. He tried the whole hug the
Speaker 2: matt thing, and what he did is this covered that
Speaker 2: imam box is considered the greatest on the ground wrestler
Speaker 2: India has ever produced. And essentially, yeah, so it was over.
Speaker 2: So at this point, like the entire buzz around the
Speaker 2: visit of these guys has shifted, like your financials are
Speaker 2: starting to get what they want because people are starting
Speaker 2: to talk about like who's going to beat these guys?
Speaker 1: But you know who else people are talking about? Sorry,
Speaker 1: I just have to do this about the twenty minute mark.
Speaker 1: The other thing people are talking about is these screaming
Speaker 1: deals on screaming supplies. This show is brought to you
Speaker 1: by all of the supplies that you need for screaming,
Speaker 1: including throat coat, tea and what else doeaming for screaming. Man,
Speaker 1: you're going to rescue me with this bit Sophie, you're
Speaker 1: gonna whiskey? Are we brought deep by alcohol?
Speaker 3: Are we allowed to be brought I was just saying water, oh, water, Eh.
Speaker 1: Sophie was miming drinking or whiskey. I don't know.
Speaker 3: It depends on who you are.
Speaker 1: With honey in it. That's me when I record for
Speaker 1: my metal band, I don't do the screaming. Laura does
Speaker 1: the screaming. She just sits there with a thing of
Speaker 1: honey and in between takes just downs honey out of
Speaker 1: the bear. And that's what we're brought to you by
Speaker 1: is long winded advertising breaks like this one. And we're
Speaker 1: back and we're not talking about screaming really or are we?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm not the one with the script. Could be a
Speaker 1: screaming match. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: Screaming is appropriate. Because when we left, we were talking
Speaker 2: about how they entire buzz had shifted around the Indian
Speaker 2: wrestler's visit to London. Yeah, and now people are worrying
Speaker 2: about who People in London were worrying about who's going
Speaker 2: to beat them. So there was like letters to the
Speaker 2: editors and articles still lamenting about how they could not
Speaker 2: even find a white man to face them, so on
Speaker 2: and so forth. You know, it was like right wing
Speaker 2: Twitter before Twitter. Yeah, so that stuff is happening. And
Speaker 2: there was one editorial at least about how this was
Speaker 2: affecting morale of subjects back in India.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's what I'm there for.
Speaker 2: Huh. So your financials were basically who wanted to like
Speaker 2: strike a blow at the heart of vampire and all
Speaker 2: that they were getting exactly what they wanted at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Anyway, your Zibisco fight looms and on this day John
Speaker 2: Bull comes through with two hundred and fifty pounds and
Speaker 2: a belt, a belt as well this time.
Speaker 1: Okay, so.
Speaker 2: The fight starts and remember we have now the greatest defensive.
Speaker 1: The Brothers fighter. Yeah, this is the this is this
Speaker 1: is Brothers fighting.
Speaker 2: Gama has done.
Speaker 1: It was one minute okay long, you're right. So this
Speaker 1: is Kama versus the check guy who's trying to or
Speaker 1: polish guy. He's trying to reclaim his reputation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a Bisco. So anyway, this remember and remember
Speaker 2: this is the guy who's supposed to one of the
Speaker 2: greatest defensive wrestlers in the world, where yeah, you can't
Speaker 2: get him off his speech. If you get him off
Speaker 2: his feet, you can't pin him that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Anyway, how long is he last?
Speaker 2: So he's on the ground within the first minute. At
Speaker 2: this point he goes back to the turtle technique. Okay,
Speaker 2: for some reason, Gama is not able to flip him.
Speaker 2: So then what follows is like a real farts for
Speaker 2: about like two plus hours where this guy hugged from
Speaker 2: that everything like and almost nothing happens, and then like
Speaker 2: Gama will do something, the ref will say something, Gama
Speaker 2: will stand away, this guy will stay there. And then
Speaker 2: every so like maybe like once or twice doing the
Speaker 2: whole fight, this guy stood back up. They'd lock up.
Speaker 2: Within like a second or two, he'd be back down
Speaker 2: and face down.
Speaker 1: Just don the turtle mode again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And the crowd was really not enjoying it
Speaker 2: at all, like they hated it.
Speaker 1: But I'm enjoying it because I don't have to watch it.
Speaker 1: It's just funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, it was declared a draw after two
Speaker 2: hours and fifteen.
Speaker 1: Shit, all right, because he can't get unturtled.
Speaker 2: Yes, and so this is the greatest offensive fighter of
Speaker 2: all time. This and the three draws against Rahim Sultaniola
Speaker 2: are the only non wins of Gama's fighting career. Damn.
Speaker 2: All right, so it's a big deal.
Speaker 1: He's very upset he can't beat the turtle.
Speaker 2: So what he said later was like it was a
Speaker 2: language issue, like there were certain holes which were barred,
Speaker 2: and he was like every time i'd grab him, like
Speaker 2: the ref would say something, I was like, oh, maybe
Speaker 2: that's an illegal hole, and I'd let go and I
Speaker 2: turned off the ref. Yeah. So anyway, and the rematch
Speaker 2: was set because the draw was very unsatisfying, and at
Speaker 2: the rematch, Zubiscu didn't show up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will show up if I had just embarrassed
Speaker 1: myself by being a turtle for two hours.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So like Zibiscown, for his part, claims that the
Speaker 2: reason he didn't show up is because he didn't get
Speaker 2: his promise share of the gate receipts from the first fight.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay happen.
Speaker 2: And then he claimed that when the rematch happened, he
Speaker 2: wasn't even in the country. But I don't know there
Speaker 2: was a rematch and he wasn't there, so like then
Speaker 2: choose your destiny. Yeah, anyway, and he of course declared
Speaker 2: that in or he didn't declare that in nineteen eleven
Speaker 2: I will face Garma there's a rematch, but obviously nineteen
Speaker 2: eleven that never really happened.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Anyway, soon after like all this just as suddenly as
Speaker 2: they arrived, the Indian wrestlers, like one day they were
Speaker 2: packed up and they were gone back to India. Why
Speaker 2: is not super clay. Maybe they got tired of England.
Speaker 2: Maybe the benefactor decided that, like you know, the civil
Speaker 2: independence movement and stuff was growing, Maybe that was a
Speaker 2: better use of his time and money. Then maybe he
Speaker 2: thought that the achieved the objective had been achieved. Any case,
Speaker 2: the era of like wrestling as the fountainhead or the
Speaker 2: sphere tip of like the counterpropaganda movement was pretty much
Speaker 2: like drawing to a close at this point. Okay, maybe
Speaker 2: for the reasons I have just discussed with you, like
Speaker 2: there was like actual active movements happening, and this like
Speaker 2: soft method was not needed anymore. Kind of point has
Speaker 2: been proved, we believe now people believe now it's time
Speaker 2: to take back that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: That makes sense.
Speaker 2: It does leave us with the question, which you've kind
Speaker 2: of talked about several times and answered like that what
Speaker 2: is really interesting is like this generation of like wrestling
Speaker 2: obsessed powerful investors, the investments they made, the old system
Speaker 2: that had been like being perfected for like generations and
Speaker 2: hundreds of years, right one knowing it, all these combined
Speaker 2: to basically give India like the greatest wrestling training system
Speaker 2: in the world, which they almost would not have even
Speaker 2: known it was the greatest in the world if it
Speaker 2: wasn't for like this specific like confluence of circumstances. And
Speaker 2: it's just very interesting to think about to me personally,
Speaker 2: like as a wrestling nerd.
Speaker 1: Then yeah, who knows. You're saying that the British Empire
Speaker 1: was good.
Speaker 2: No, I'm saying the wrestling was good.
Speaker 1: I'm just fucking with you. Sorry.
Speaker 2: So anyway, at this point, like Gama goes back, he's
Speaker 2: back in India and he doesn't really have a lot
Speaker 2: of opponents left in India. He's basically come back as
Speaker 2: like Zaman, which is like world champion but I but
Speaker 2: interesting enough, he's still not Indian champion because he hasn't
Speaker 2: won that fight. Oh yeah, he's one of those rare
Speaker 2: guys who has the world championship but not the Indian championship.
Speaker 1: I mean that kind of tracks with everything you're just
Speaker 1: saying about how India was the place that the greatest.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So anyway, so time comes they talk about
Speaker 2: like yet another re Actually they got to settle this.
Speaker 2: But basically what happens is in the interim, like I
Speaker 2: told you, like Gama had a lot of personal tragedies,
Speaker 2: and one of them was like he had about five
Speaker 2: or six sons and he lost almost all of them
Speaker 2: to various elements and illnesses. Yeah yeah, yeah, he was married, Okay,
Speaker 2: He's right, Like he was devout Muslim, like you take
Speaker 2: time out to do his namas every day. Also, so
Speaker 2: at one point, like he was apparently so grief stricken
Speaker 2: he didn't speak for weeks and like apparently all that
Speaker 2: brought him back is again wrestling, practicing and all that.
Speaker 2: So anyway, finally in about nineteen hundred and ten, I
Speaker 2: think twelve, like depending on the source you believe, the
Speaker 2: fight happened in Alaba, yes way could we you know?
Speaker 2: And this time Rayammala had spent his time training with Ramamurti,
Speaker 2: who I've mentioned earlier. Remember wrote the Treaties on Physical
Speaker 2: Education and went around lecturing for this fight. So for
Speaker 2: this fight. When he shows up, he'd like covered himself
Speaker 2: in like red ochre dust. So depending on like the
Speaker 2: version you read, he's been variously I'm talking about I
Speaker 2: hear the giant was about seven feet tall, so he's
Speaker 2: been verisedly described as looking like a demon or a
Speaker 2: devil when he showed up because he was like covered
Speaker 2: in red dust.
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't fuck with a seven foot hand covered
Speaker 1: as a general rule.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So at this point the everyone is like fed
Speaker 2: up of the draws, So like, you guys are going
Speaker 2: to fight. We don't care how long it takes. Nobody
Speaker 2: gets to cancel this thing. Yeah, so it went on
Speaker 2: for like three hours at one point.
Speaker 1: Reference, I just want to point that out. And I
Speaker 1: was a good one next thanks, So what at one
Speaker 1: point Raheem actually like ran away and was chased by
Speaker 1: Gama around the arena and like back into the ring.
Speaker 1: All this shit happens at the end of it, like
Speaker 1: when the dust settles, literally, Gama is finally the champion,
Speaker 1: like he's finally done it. Like how long how long
Speaker 1: did it take from.
Speaker 2: His first So the first time they met was like
Speaker 2: what nineteen hundred Oh no, no, I.
Speaker 1: Mean this match three hours, okay, I was switched to
Speaker 1: basically yeah, yeah, yeah, I am so.
Speaker 2: At this point, like he's also like the domestic champ,
Speaker 2: so like he's basically got nothing left, like so his
Speaker 2: fights are basically sporadic at this point. In nineteen sixteen,
Speaker 2: he met a guy called Pundit Bidu who was leading
Speaker 2: Hindu wrestler, and he crushed him easily so that he
Speaker 2: still was that guy. In nineteen eighteen, he passed on
Speaker 2: his roostoma in thinking to his brother saying like you
Speaker 2: are the champion.
Speaker 1: Now I'm chilling just because he's like bored of it.
Speaker 2: He's like yeah, okay, so he's basically having said that,
Speaker 2: Like Imam Baksh is like considered, like as I mentioned
Speaker 2: with Glangri, one of the most technically perfect. He's considered
Speaker 2: the best ground wrestler ever, and like he proved it
Speaker 2: like with a LEMP fight. Like there have been like people,
Speaker 2: especially if you want to be an edge lord, like
Speaker 2: these circles and these discussions. One very edge lord thing
Speaker 2: is to say that is that it is to say
Speaker 2: that Immam Bucks should have flipped Zibbi's school. But no,
Speaker 2: because like here's the other thing, Like this was going
Speaker 2: like eighty pounds or ninety pounds heavier than Gama. Like
Speaker 2: trust me, Like doing that to two hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: a guy who's fifty pounds more than he was a
Speaker 2: lot doing it someone like eighty is like just not possible. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just anyway. But if you want to be an
Speaker 2: edge lord, it's a good way to go. Like it's
Speaker 2: like high, it's like high level posting.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Anyway, So what happens next that's the most note is
Speaker 2: that people start talking about the rematch with Zibbis Scoo,
Speaker 2: who is his other great rival in his life, because
Speaker 2: that's the other time that was the draw. So because
Speaker 2: of the draw. So at this point, yes, so the
Speaker 2: coming to India, No, that's a good point. The buzz
Speaker 2: is about him coming to India. And in about nineteen
Speaker 2: twenty seven, the Maraja of Patiala announces that he has
Speaker 2: created this match. Zibisco is going to come to India.
Speaker 2: He's going to face Garma on his native soil. He's
Speaker 2: going to do so in a grand pavilion that the
Speaker 2: Maharaja will build, and the pavilion will house eighty thousand people.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, it's gonna be decorated with turtles because just
Speaker 1: to celebrate Batman when he shows up. So in yes,
Speaker 1: I finally got shipped a laugh trying Okay, anyway.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I've just been like very focused on like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: you're doing great.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So anyway, in nineteen twenty eight and not twenty seven,
Speaker 2: this happens, and it's a it's in an arena which
Speaker 2: has forty thousand people, not eighty. But Zibisco does come
Speaker 2: and apparently he's got some Is.
Speaker 1: This wild that they're like Normally, when I think of sports,
Speaker 1: I think of people kind of stopping around the time
Speaker 1: they're in their mid thirties in terms of professional level athletes.
Speaker 1: I clear I am an expert in sports, but so
Speaker 1: it seems like this is like kind of impressive that
Speaker 1: people are continuing to compete at the highest level when
Speaker 1: they're he's like forty seven at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So like yes and no in the sense that
Speaker 2: like they were probably both past their pride at this point,
Speaker 2: honestly speaking, well pasted. And they say fighters never really retired,
Speaker 2: They're always coming back for one more fight.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, Muhammadi did that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think everyone finds it hard to
Speaker 2: like walk away after being really good at something.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So anyway, so this fight is happening in nineteen twenty
Speaker 2: eight and it's it's basically a who's who of Indian
Speaker 2: royalty and everyone. It was like the met Gala, but
Speaker 2: from Hahajas and lawabs and stuff like that. Okay, like
Speaker 2: they were all there to watch the fight and Zibisco
Speaker 2: gets some obscene burst for it and all that. So
Speaker 2: the fight began and Mazuna recorded as a fort to
Speaker 2: second win for Gama, which is interesting life the universe
Speaker 2: and everything that number. But yeah, apparently they grabbed, they
Speaker 2: swung around for a bit, there's an angle and it's over,
Speaker 2: like it's done. Then there's this massive cries all around
Speaker 2: the forty Gamas one India has one. India has one,
Speaker 2: and they carried him off on their shoulders on the
Speaker 2: victory procession. There's a nawab who gifted him with the
Speaker 2: silver mace and basically everyone's delighted. There was like extra
Speaker 2: vibe because like you know, he was like considered a
Speaker 2: man of the people for like just going off with
Speaker 2: the crowd instead of hobnobbing with the maharajas. And like
Speaker 2: that fight has had huge cultural impact, like impact at
Speaker 2: levels that he wouldn't even think to associate it all
Speaker 2: the way to like the early nineteen nineties, Like it
Speaker 2: was like almost like standard for like Bollywood villains to
Speaker 2: have this white strongman sidekick, and like half of them
Speaker 2: have been named Zibisco. That's his only name. He doesn't
Speaker 2: have a first team, he does not last name. He's Zibisco.
Speaker 2: In the Hollywood movie, the hero will first be up
Speaker 2: Zibisco before he beats up the actual villain. It's the procession,
Speaker 2: like the order of events. Okay, but like what I'm
Speaker 2: saying is like basically and that that is.
Speaker 1: The guy seems like the turtle guy seems nice, Like,
Speaker 1: oh he seems.
Speaker 2: Like a realized guy. Yeah, yeah, if you like talked,
Speaker 2: if you have actually center, he talks about it like
Speaker 2: he really rates Gama very highly, and he clearly the
Speaker 2: fight was so quick. Is that he wasn't used to
Speaker 2: wrestling on mud and on dirt and he slipped.
Speaker 1: Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 2: I mean, I like one guy's ribs broke allegedly like
Speaker 2: you can you can choose your destiny. I'm gonna keep
Speaker 2: saying that. Yeah, it's Mortal Gombat in story form. So anyway,
Speaker 2: after this incident happened in Gama's basically become pretty much
Speaker 2: like a national treasure, like he's like his national hero
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, and which was kind of noted
Speaker 2: by this subsequent incident where he wants people to essentially
Speaker 2: get free rain rail travel on this section of on
Speaker 2: this section of Indian railways, and he sends this challenge
Speaker 2: to the government saying that I will stop a moving
Speaker 2: train on this on this track, and if I succeed,
Speaker 2: you must give everybody free travel. And I dare you
Speaker 2: if you do, if you're not afraid, reply with your answer.
Speaker 2: And they did not reply. And again there are various sources. Yeah,
Speaker 2: one sources that they simply didn't reply. Another sources he
Speaker 2: went there on that day to do the stoppage and
Speaker 2: they held off trains that day because they were so
Speaker 2: afraid of Gama. I mean, if you actually read between
Speaker 2: the lines, to me, it looks more like, you know,
Speaker 2: they're quite aware of how things work in Indiana, like
Speaker 2: if this guy gets run over by a train, we'll
Speaker 2: have riots.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they probably that was like the purpose of anything,
Speaker 2: but it had it adds to the story right, like, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 1: At this point of sack get people free rail trial traveler.
Speaker 2: Now, no, I don't think it did.
Speaker 1: All right, it's the shot.
Speaker 2: I think the yeah, it was worth a shot, like
Speaker 2: he created the buzz and yeah. And anyway, at this
Speaker 2: point he's just like basically like mostly training and not
Speaker 2: even really fighting. It's like the early nineteen thirties. So
Speaker 2: his last fight was this guy called Jesse Peterson who
Speaker 2: basically essentially like finished off pretty in good time. And
Speaker 2: after this he came up with what is basically called
Speaker 2: the Imam Bucks Challenge, which is if you wish to
Speaker 2: face me, you have to defeat Imam Buksh my younger brother.
Speaker 2: And since nobody ever did defeat Imam burg he basically
Speaker 2: meant that Gama at this point had retired without ever retiring.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, so that's what happens.
Speaker 2: So at this point in the time, he's just like training
Speaker 2: and stuff. And at this point his nutrition and diet
Speaker 2: come to the attention of this professor who I think
Speaker 2: was in Calcutta University of Howda University something. His name
Speaker 2: is Professor S. Mazumdar or Majumda depending on the source,
Speaker 2: and he was a professor of nutrition who wanted to
Speaker 2: go and study and studied the way the pehlvans A
Speaker 2: and did their diet, so he went there. In his
Speaker 2: interactions he became so fascinated with the whole thing he
Speaker 2: gave up on nutrition in Ali and became India's foremost
Speaker 2: historian of pelwani wrestling.
Speaker 1: Whoa Okay, almost all of.
Speaker 2: The English writing on the subject are people who have
Speaker 2: read Majumdar. He is like the primary source in English
Speaker 2: for a lot of this. He's the guy who went
Speaker 2: and read Vernacules, Saurces, met people, did this and all that.
Speaker 2: And he said as late as the mid nineteen thirties
Speaker 2: that Gama is easily the greatest wrestlers in the world.
Speaker 2: That he's seen that he was beating all these guys
Speaker 2: in practice. No one has actually seen these practices but him,
Speaker 2: But that is what happened. Although like this whole enrapturement
Speaker 2: with Gama's diet and training is not unique at all, right,
Speaker 2: like Bruce Lee later in his life discovered it, and
Speaker 2: like he incorporate aspects of Gama's like a workout regimen
Speaker 2: and training stuff into his own. So like like God
Speaker 2: wanted a bunch of interesting stuff in that sense, like
Speaker 2: he inspired Bruce Lee, who we'd never heard of, who
Speaker 2: everybody else has.
Speaker 1: But did he use blue Apron? Eh, eh, because he
Speaker 1: could have and saved. I don't even think we're sponsored
Speaker 1: by Blue Apron, so that's not actually advice.
Speaker 3: Some of our shows are sponsored by HelloFresh.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, well, my cynicism remains, But are not cynically
Speaker 1: say that you should listen to the people who gave
Speaker 1: us money to let us have you listen to them
Speaker 1: talk about stuff. Here's some ads and we're back, and
Speaker 1: I'm I think that's the last time I have to
Speaker 1: shoehorn in very awkwardly into the middle of a sentence
Speaker 1: of yours. Sorry about that, Please continue.
Speaker 2: It's absolutely fine. So we were talking about SO and
Speaker 2: Bruce Lee and the diet and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So.
Speaker 2: He's been interesting, like extremely influential evening in circles you
Speaker 2: mightn't expect. For instance, he didn't get a Google Doodle
Speaker 2: not that long ago.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, Gama Gama did.
Speaker 2: And what I find really cool about that is, like
Speaker 2: I'm going to be like weird Matt snrd for a second,
Speaker 2: Like obviously Google is after like the number of Google
Speaker 2: you know, yeah yeah, which yeah, like goin and the
Speaker 2: fact that like Aman Gama died without knowing what either
Speaker 2: of these things ever were just makes him so much
Speaker 2: cooler for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: It's like like they cared more about him than he
Speaker 2: cared about them.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, high school level of cool anyway. Okay, So
Speaker 2: at this point, like we're getting towards like the nineteen
Speaker 2: forties Indian independence, like the movement is getting like towards
Speaker 2: its peak, and the World War began, so there was
Speaker 2: also that, right, so what would was once considered a
Speaker 2: very fringe plan now started to become a reality, which
Speaker 2: was like the partition of India and seeing which way
Speaker 2: the winds were blowing. You know, he had a bunch
Speaker 2: of wealth and property at this time he dicumulated as career,
Speaker 2: but Ghama decided he gave away a bunch of it
Speaker 2: and he moved to Lahore in Pakistan, and he said,
Speaker 2: we wanted to set up a wrestling school there. Okay,
Speaker 2: so obviously, but that doesn't really matter what you plan,
Speaker 2: because like when partition happened, like everything was put on hold,
Speaker 2: like when the salms of the British and the subcontinent,
Speaker 2: a renumerated partition of India gets often mentioned, but I
Speaker 2: think the truth like magnitude of it has never really
Speaker 2: discussed yah in western circles, and I don't want to
Speaker 2: spend too much time on it because that would like
Speaker 2: require a whole series of podcasts. But in simple terms,
Speaker 2: like communities that have lived in how many for like
Speaker 2: hundreds of years of being distuted, like entire neighborhoods, just
Speaker 2: a line draw between them and now they are two
Speaker 2: different countries.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The largest first migration in human history is generally reckoned
Speaker 2: to being World War Two, which happened over a period
Speaker 2: of several years. Number two is Partition, which was completed
Speaker 2: from beginning to end in eighteen months.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it is.
Speaker 2: It was just like a ridiculous amount of displacement and
Speaker 2: a lot of refugees, like families were torn in half.
Speaker 2: There was also like a whole lot of sectarian religious violence. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and honestly, I don't think the subcurrent ive ever seen
Speaker 2: like religious violence on this scale ever, like not even
Speaker 2: close to before.
Speaker 1: And this is where Gama.
Speaker 2: You know, life filled with great victories and like iconic
Speaker 2: moments like scripted perhaps like the most iconic moment of
Speaker 2: his whole life. So there's a colony of One of
Speaker 2: the interesting reverends of the system that the British left
Speaker 2: us is that even today in places like India and Pakistan,
Speaker 2: neighborhoods are referred to by residents as colonies are interesting.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So it's like I'm going home to my colony.
Speaker 1: Like just means the town I'm from.
Speaker 2: No, it literally means the neighborhood in the town you're from.
Speaker 1: Oh shit, okay.
Speaker 2: So like it's it's the equivalent of saying I'm going
Speaker 2: back to my neighborhood or my hord or whatever you know. Anyway,
Speaker 2: so these guys find out that there's like a place
Speaker 2: where which is predominantly Hindu, and it's in the line
Speaker 2: of like angry murder mobs. So like Gama vows to
Speaker 2: those people that I would protect you. Yeah, he takes
Speaker 2: some of his wrestlers and he goes and stands at
Speaker 2: the at the mouth of the neighborhood. And then in
Speaker 2: due course this crowd comes, you know, like their torches,
Speaker 2: angry this, that and the other. Then the.
Speaker 1: Which group is being attacked in which group is doing
Speaker 1: the attacking in this particular.
Speaker 2: Way Hindus are being attacked. I think Muslims are doing
Speaker 2: the attacking, and Gama himself, a Muslim, is standing.
Speaker 1: Between them, which is fucking rules.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, so they face off, like this guy
Speaker 2: tells Garma to get out of the way. Gama tells
Speaker 2: this guy, why don't you get out of the way,
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And anyway, so the leader of
Speaker 2: the mob or whatever approaches Gama and like he has
Speaker 2: a weapon, so he decides to try and hit kamaway
Speaker 2: his weapons. According to some sources it was the sword,
Speaker 2: but instead Gama slaps him. Now, depending on which source
Speaker 2: you believe, and what I'm telling you has been reported
Speaker 2: by like newspapers across the region, including like national newspapers,
Speaker 2: So this is the official record of what happened, depending
Speaker 2: on which one you believe. When Gama slaps this guy,
Speaker 2: he either lost consciousness, died on the spot, or had
Speaker 2: his job broken. All the accounts agree. He goes flying.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Someone in a mob recognizes Gama and yells us, hey,
Speaker 2: that's Gama, and the entire mob flees hell.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay, Now this scene has been redone in like Bollywood
Speaker 2: movies to introduce heroes like for generations since then. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but apparently it actually happened.
Speaker 1: But it so it's so good, Like it's such a
Speaker 1: good He spent his entire life building this reputation and
Speaker 1: it's like becoming a folk hero by dedicating himself to
Speaker 1: his craft. And then he the way he used that,
Speaker 1: I'm just I really like this part of the story.
Speaker 1: The way he like used that was just to literally
Speaker 1: save a ton of people's lives in a just very
Speaker 1: direct and selfless way. I fucking love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, and it gets better because he supposedly escorted
Speaker 2: people to save passage like across the border with his wrestlers,
Speaker 2: and he used his personal funds to pay for like
Speaker 2: transport for people to want to get out safely.
Speaker 1: That fucking rules, yeah, in rules.
Speaker 2: Like the sad part is Gama himself like actually died
Speaker 2: in poverty, like yeah, in a government hospital. But like
Speaker 2: the other thing about it is like he was like
Speaker 2: he actually walked to talk like when you talk about
Speaker 2: like the noble warrior among hero Yeah, selfless and like
Speaker 2: he actually was that, which is part of why he's
Speaker 2: considered so great. Like he genuinely lived that. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: probably he and his brother are like the last bastion
Speaker 2: we ever saw of that. Honestly, we're a long way
Speaker 2: from that now. Like, for instance, like I'd be remiss.
Speaker 2: I spent all this time talking about like the nobility
Speaker 2: of Indian wrestling, but like the current Wrestling Federation of
Speaker 2: India head, a political appointee, has been incredibly accused of
Speaker 2: assault by like a lot of wrestlers, non wrestlers women,
Speaker 2: and he's being protected by the government. Yeah, so we're
Speaker 2: a very long way from the legacy of Gama at
Speaker 2: this point. Yeah, but I don't know if you like
Speaker 2: speak of that legacy, it seems like a decent time
Speaker 2: to like kind of see how do you pass it
Speaker 2: and put this way, Like the records and statistics are
Speaker 2: like this there is ridiculous, Like they just if you
Speaker 2: read them, they do not seem real because they are
Speaker 2: just wired like five thousand fights without a defeat. There's
Speaker 2: there's a stone that he's supposedly lifted, which is in
Speaker 2: the museum in Baroda. It's in the museum and that
Speaker 2: stone is about twelve hundred kilos. So apparently there's people
Speaker 2: who saw him lift this twelve hundred kilos stone. You know,
Speaker 2: like there's newspapers, like extremely reputable national newspapers telling us, yeah,
Speaker 2: this dude slapped down a mob. This is a report
Speaker 2: of the incident. You know. So you have all this
Speaker 2: stuff which peats that seem literally superhuman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have the like all.
Speaker 2: A lot of the stuff of his life is on
Speaker 2: the Olympics website. Like these are like reputable sources. These
Speaker 2: are often sources who revel in telling us that hey,
Speaker 2: your hero is not real. And these are the guys
Speaker 2: telling us that hey, Superman's real, this is him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this one is real. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the way I have come to understand Gama, like
Speaker 2: over the course of my life, from viaging his superhis
Speaker 2: a kid to today is like one of two things
Speaker 2: is true here. Either he was genuinely like a superhero
Speaker 2: did these incredible things, or he was the greatest storyteller
Speaker 2: who's like we'll ever see again, who convinced the Olympics Committee,
Speaker 2: national newspapers, people who had a vested interest in saying
Speaker 2: you're a liar, that he was the real deal. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and in that case as a storyteller. In either case,
Speaker 2: I think that makes him incredibly cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I mean, he clearly won a lot of matches.
Speaker 1: Whether or not he won five thousand of them, I
Speaker 1: don't know, but like that he's the real deal at
Speaker 1: the very least in terms of being it seems like
Speaker 1: the greatest wrestler that we've ever seen. Whether or not
Speaker 1: he lifted a twelve hundred kilogram stone or not, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Like he's still the real deal even if
Speaker 1: that one particular thing may or may not have happened
Speaker 1: or whatever.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's like even if you're the kind
Speaker 2: of person like who's just built up like a reputation
Speaker 2: enough that like this mob incident happens, like yeah, even
Speaker 2: if it's like entirely fabricated, like someone at that paper
Speaker 2: was like if I say Gama did this, it will
Speaker 2: be believed. Yeah, and that is it self is an achievement.
Speaker 2: Like let's assume the newspaper light, let's just assume the
Speaker 2: worst case scenario, newspaper made it up out of hope clubs.
Speaker 2: That still means that it was considered credible enough that
Speaker 2: this guy would do it, Like I can you name
Speaker 2: me someone else that you would do this about? And
Speaker 2: people read me like, yeah, this could have happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah now that yeah, live your life in such a
Speaker 1: way that if you did, if newspapers accused you of
Speaker 1: doing something wildly noble, everyone will believe it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So, so one way, the other guy was
Speaker 2: a real deal. He did really cool things. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: he was pretty cool. So that is my thesis for
Speaker 2: why he should be on this podcast.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, secretly we've been recording the whole time.
Speaker 2: Ah wait, I don't have to come back and do
Speaker 2: this again.
Speaker 1: Yeah no. I first, you did a tweet thread about
Speaker 1: Gamma and it was probably about a year ago, and
Speaker 1: I just like reached out. I just started whole people
Speaker 1: did cool stuff, and I was like, I need this
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I really I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the story sticks out to me so much because of
Speaker 1: just this like how hyperbolic his like physical capacity was, right,
Speaker 1: but like actually probably was on some level greater than
Speaker 1: I have no doubts that he could just do squats
Speaker 1: all day, right yeah, and then like and then just
Speaker 1: like actually using it.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean it's like the way you're describing this culture,
Speaker 1: you know, the like warrior monk thing that is like
Speaker 1: is largely mythologized, and it's like, you know, the Western
Speaker 1: conception of the night is like comparable protect the I mean,
Speaker 1: usually they're doing absolutely horrible things and stuf, right, but
Speaker 1: this idea of like, oh, you're going to be this
Speaker 1: person who's gonna like use the fact that you spend
Speaker 1: all your time training to fight and no one else
Speaker 1: does to go like help the defenseless or whatever. Like,
Speaker 1: I just I love seeing that actually happening.
Speaker 2: It's It's very much comic superhero origin story stuff, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well thanks, uh, thanks for telling me about
Speaker 1: all this stuff. There's so much more I want to
Speaker 1: learn about all of this, and I can't believe that
Speaker 1: slowly I'm being convinced that I think I always on
Speaker 1: some level knew that sports matter, but like there's still
Speaker 1: just this part of me that was like, no, I
Speaker 1: was a trans girled in know it, so I hate
Speaker 1: a gym class, so therefore sports is bad and like
Speaker 1: fucking bullshit.
Speaker 2: Sports is great.
Speaker 3: Question, Yeah exactly, I.
Speaker 1: Didn't even then like it was my gym. It was
Speaker 1: my gym. Tpro is a gym teacher at my school
Speaker 1: who like the way that my school got a gay
Speaker 1: straight alliance is that these two obviously in retrospect lesbian
Speaker 1: teachers came up to me and we're like, did you
Speaker 1: know that teachers can't start student groups. Here's all of
Speaker 1: the forms for a gay straight alliance, please sign them.
Speaker 1: And one of them was the gym teacher lady, who
Speaker 1: was obviously a lesbian in retrospect. So gym teachers even
Speaker 1: really am just mad at the kids who picked on me.
Speaker 1: And it's not there. It's not sports fault, not sports,
Speaker 1: it's there fault. Yeah, society's fault. I don't know. You
Speaker 1: got anything that you want to plug the ways that
Speaker 1: people could follow you. What's the name of one of
Speaker 1: your stories that people could go read?
Speaker 2: Well, the last one I have is like, actually, you
Speaker 2: probably should read that because like, the novel I'm writing
Speaker 2: is kind of like a sequel to that short story.
Speaker 2: It's called Party a PI. You'll find it on Lightspeed magazine.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, and you can follow me on the tweet
Speaker 2: machine for as long as it exists. I'm at NAMESHIV.
Speaker 2: I tweet about lots of random stuff, some of which
Speaker 2: we've covered.
Speaker 1: Cool. I'm on Twitter still, also at Magpie Killjoy unless
Speaker 1: you're listening to this far enough in the future where
Speaker 1: I'm not and instead I am free, and by free
Speaker 1: I mean doing all kinds of other things instead, because
Speaker 1: I like eating food on a regular basis and so
Speaker 1: it is my dog. I'm also on Instagram at Margaret Kiljoy.
Speaker 1: I'm now on Substack at Margaret Kiljoy or not at
Speaker 1: Margaret Kiljoy dot substock dot com. Substack being a newsletter
Speaker 1: thing where I write an essay every week and a
Speaker 1: lot of it is like reflections on the history that
Speaker 1: I'm learning about as I work on this show. Some
Speaker 1: of it is about preparedness and some of it's just
Speaker 1: like memoir and things like that. And what do you got?
Speaker 1: Can people follow you on things? What if people want
Speaker 1: to bug you about the ads that you have no
Speaker 1: control over? How can they?
Speaker 3: Oh, that's that's at I write? Okay on Twitter?
Speaker 1: Oh okay, cool? What if they don't want to hear
Speaker 1: ads at all? Can go ahead? Well what was the question?
Speaker 1: What if they don't want to hear ads at all?
Speaker 1: Can they follow us?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: At Cooler Zone Media Media.
Speaker 3: Yeah, on Apple podcasts. Yeah, that's the thing. Just at
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media for all the shows, all the things.
Speaker 3: And if you find my handles on there too, there's
Speaker 3: cute pictures of my dog somewhere.
Speaker 1: They are cute pictures of a cute dog. And we
Speaker 1: will talk to you next week with more cool people
Speaker 1: who did cool stuff. By bye.
Speaker 3: Some People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,
Speaker 3: visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 3: your podcasts.