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Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released weekly every Wednesday and brought

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Speaker 1: to you absolutely free.

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Speaker 2: But if you want ad free listening.

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Speaker 1: And exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot

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Speaker 1: com or on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

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Speaker 3: iHeart Podcasts. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back. You planned that all week. You were way

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Speaker 1: too excited about doing that.

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Speaker 4: I just thought of doing it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well it's pretty original. Welcome back to Talking to Death.

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Speaker 1: I'm Payne Lindsay. This is my annoying friend Mike Rooney.

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Speaker 1: It's been a pretty busy week for kind of both

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Speaker 1: of us. I spend a lot of my time preparing

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Speaker 1: for my next trip to Alaska. For those of you

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Speaker 1: who don't know, I have a true crime podcast called

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Speaker 1: Up and Vanished that is in its fourth season. It's

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Speaker 1: coming out in January. And so I'm deep into investigating

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Speaker 1: a missing person's case right now. And I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: the one thing that I really kind of underestimated by

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Speaker 1: investigating a case in Alaska is the absolute logistical nightmare

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Speaker 1: of it all. Alaska is so far away from Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: ridiculously far. I was checking the flights this week, and

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Speaker 1: the fastest flight there is to get to Anchorage is

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Speaker 1: ten hours. You can literally get to London from Atlanta

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Speaker 1: and probably six It's too big of a state because

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Speaker 1: even when you get there, you're probably another two hour

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Speaker 1: flight from the next place you actually have to be.

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Speaker 1: You could easily split Alaska into thirty different states and

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't matter at all.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just a little too big for US.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's basically Russia. Like it. Seriously, it's very

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Speaker 4: close to Russia.

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Speaker 1: I mean the parts that we're going to, which I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to divulge all the details right now because

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Speaker 1: we're still doing it, but we're very far north up there.

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Speaker 1: You can we're literally closer to Russia than we are

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Speaker 1: to anything else in the US. But yeah, I've just

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Speaker 1: been kind of, you know, trying to plan out the trip,

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Speaker 1: and the logistics are always kind of a nightmare, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you get there to concharter planes or you're doing

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Speaker 1: rental cars. And over the past few years, when it

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Speaker 1: comes to rental cars, I've been a fan of using

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Speaker 1: this app called Turo. It's basically the Airbnb for renting cars.

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Speaker 1: It's just more convenient, they have cooler vehicles, it's always

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Speaker 1: usually cheaper, and sometimes they'll even drop it off at

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Speaker 1: your doorstep. So I've used the Touro app for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years, probably almost twenty different rentals, five stars.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have been a pretty good customer.

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Speaker 1: But I remembered just yesterday I was trying to use

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Speaker 1: the Touro app again that actually I've been banned from Touro.

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Speaker 1: Usually nine times out of ten. When someone gets banned

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Speaker 1: from an app, they probably deserved it. They probably did

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Speaker 1: something messed up or broke the rules or tried to

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Speaker 1: cheat the system.

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Speaker 4: Usually, right, Well, it's not usually a lifetime ban, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a light I have a lifetime lifetime

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Speaker 1: ban from the Touro app. Let me tell you this

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Speaker 1: quick little story here. I've been a great customer. A

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Speaker 1: few months ago, I was in Providence, Rhode Island. Never

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Speaker 1: been there before. Was with one of our producers, Eric,

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Speaker 1: and we traveled there to do one interview. Got there

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Speaker 1: late at night. Eric picked up the car from the airport.

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Speaker 1: We slept at this hotel, woke up in the morning,

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Speaker 1: just drove a half hour outside of town. Then lunch

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Speaker 1: came around. We met at this restaurant by the airport,

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Speaker 1: dropped the car back off to the guy.

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Speaker 2: He was even like, how'd you enjoy the car? Was?

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Speaker 2: You know? Was it nice?

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Speaker 1: And it was like a BMW Sedan. I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty comfortable. He's like, hey, well, if you're ever

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Speaker 1: in Providence again, let me know because I have other vehicles. Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess I made the mistake of just admitting to

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Speaker 1: him that I might not ever be here again. I

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Speaker 1: said something along the lines of, h I mean, who

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Speaker 1: knows of all being Providence again.

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Speaker 2: But we'll see, I'll let you know.

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Speaker 1: And in hindsight, I'm like, did I just tipped this

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Speaker 1: guy off that I'm maybe never coming to Providence again?

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Speaker 2: Because here's what happened.

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Speaker 1: I get home that night and I have an email

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Speaker 1: from Touro customer support. I can no longer log into

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Speaker 1: the app, and it says I've been permanently banned from

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Speaker 1: the app because I smoked in the vehicle. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, this guy's got it confused. Maybe it's

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Speaker 1: a different car, one of his other cars that he

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Speaker 1: got that day, and he's confusing me. This should be

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Speaker 1: easy to clear up. Then I scroll further down, and

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Speaker 1: I see all these different pictures he took that are

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Speaker 1: definitely the car we had the same car, and there's

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Speaker 1: ash everywhere in the seats, and this smoking gun of

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Speaker 1: a blue lighter in the passenger seat, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: holy shit, this guy is setting me up. This sounds unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: So clearly Turo did not believe me when I said

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Speaker 1: he's lying. But here's what he got out of this, right,

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Speaker 1: here's why I was a follows plan on his part.

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Speaker 1: I paid him a three hundred dollars fine. I'm permanently banned.

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Speaker 1: I cannot message him anymore. I can barely get through

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Speaker 1: to Touro, and when I do, they clearly don't believe

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Speaker 1: me when I say, Hey, this guy's making this up

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Speaker 1: and he staged these photos.

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Speaker 4: You were framed.

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Speaker 2: I was framed.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm not even mad at them for not

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Speaker 1: believing me, but a part of me is just so

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Speaker 1: annoyed that he got away with this. So, Turo, if

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Speaker 1: you're listening, just know that there's a guy out there

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Speaker 1: who will probably do this again, if he's not already,

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Speaker 1: And if you've banned him or something, reach back out

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Speaker 1: to me and unlock my account because I liked using it.

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Speaker 1: But anyways, I got framed for smoking cigarettes in a

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Speaker 1: rental car. And I'm talking about it was a lot

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Speaker 1: of ash. It was not to be confused with anything else.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't dust. This guy seriously littered his car with

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Speaker 1: some sort of substance that looked like cigarette ash. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, just telling you that truth. You don't have

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Speaker 1: to believe me, because Toro doesn't either. Anyways, I just

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Speaker 1: was thinking about that last night and I got annoyed,

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Speaker 1: and I figured I would tell that story because Toro

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Speaker 1: won't listen anymore.

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Speaker 2: So maybe you guys can listen to me. Don't message

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Speaker 2: them or anything, I mean unless you work there or something.

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Speaker 4: Just start a petition. Yeah, change that org.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a big deal, guys. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So preparing for Alaska, it's gonna be freezing cold.

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Speaker 4: Did you get your booties? My booties, your booty, your

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Speaker 4: snow booties?

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I definitely need to go clothes shopping for

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Speaker 1: some serious jackets. I mean, I think it's said it

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Speaker 1: was going to be thirteen degrees. That's not some play

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Speaker 1: around shit. That is some If you don't have the

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Speaker 1: right gear and you're outside for too long, you might

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Speaker 1: get hyperthermia kind of situation. So let's be sure to

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Speaker 1: overpack the gloves and the jackets.

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Speaker 2: I know I'm gonna try to do that.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is one of my personal heroes, and I

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Speaker 1: mean in all seriousness. He's one of my biggest inspirations

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Speaker 1: when it comes to storytelling as a whole. He's a

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Speaker 1: very successful documentary filmmaker and a super talented cinematographer, and

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Speaker 1: he's produced, in my opinion, the best true crime documentary

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Speaker 1: series of all time, hands down. His name is Mark

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Speaker 1: Smirling in the series I'm talking about is called The

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Speaker 1: Jinx on HBO. If for whatever reason you've not seen this,

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Speaker 1: which that's you need to fix that, go watch.

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Speaker 2: It right now. The Jinks on HBO.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give you the spoiler alert warning now

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Speaker 1: because we dive deep into what happens in this docu series.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't seen it, it will get spoiled for you.

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Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, he released a true crime docu series

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Speaker 1: called The Jinks, and in my opinion, it's probably the

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Speaker 1: best true crime doc made to date, and it is

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Speaker 1: really what even inspired me to start telling these kinds

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Speaker 1: of stories.

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Speaker 2: In the first place.

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Speaker 1: So if you've seen the jinks, this interview is going

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Speaker 1: to be very interesting. If you haven't, I'll give you

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Speaker 1: a little log line here synopsis on what happens in

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Speaker 1: the dock. If you want to watch it for yourself, just

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Speaker 1: pause and go check it out on HBO.

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Speaker 2: It'll be worth it.

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Speaker 1: For years, Mark Smirling followed this guy around named Robert Durst.

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Speaker 1: Robert Durst was this old multimillionaire guy who inherited this

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Speaker 1: money from his dad in this real estate business in

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Speaker 1: New York City, and he became the main suspect in

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Speaker 1: a series of unsolved murders and it didn't look very

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Speaker 1: good for him.

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Speaker 2: And Mark Smirling.

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Speaker 1: And his directing partner Andrew Jureki followed this guy around

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Speaker 1: for years, asking him questions about these murders. And here

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Speaker 1: comes the big spoiler. If you don't know already, at

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Speaker 1: the very end of this documentary, something magical happens. Once

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Speaker 1: they've cut the interview and it's over, he's still wearing

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Speaker 1: this wireless lavalier mic Robert Durst is and he goes

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom and he starts talking to himself, and

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Speaker 1: he starts saying things that essentially incriminate him basically admitting

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Speaker 1: that he killed these people. It's gone down infamously now

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Speaker 1: as the Jinx moment, and if you're a true crime storyteller,

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Speaker 1: everyone is after their JINX moment.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: What's that magical ending that ties this whole story up

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Speaker 1: in a bow? How do we catch the bad guy?

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Speaker 1: Mark Smirling really did this? And it is absolutely mind

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Speaker 1: blowing to see. We dive deep into that today and

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Speaker 1: we go way behind the scenes on what it was

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Speaker 1: really like, how he framed stories, his podcasting career, his

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Speaker 1: career as a filmmaker. I really do look up to him,

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Speaker 1: and the way that he crafts a story to me

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Speaker 1: is so admirable. The guy is a wealth of knowledge

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Speaker 1: and on top of that, just a great human being.

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Speaker 1: I love his dry wit, which you'll see, and I

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Speaker 1: like giving him shit sometimes because he's twice my age.

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Speaker 1: I'll call him Dad or something weird, and I know

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Speaker 1: he doesn't think it's that funny because he also has

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Speaker 1: a son and he's like, Dude, that's kind of weird,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, why Dad, shut up, Dad, And I

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Speaker 1: could tell he gets annoyed by it. So it makes

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Speaker 1: me want to keep doing it Dad, But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: love this guy. It's a hilarious interview and if you

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Speaker 1: haven't seen The Jinks, please go watch it because this

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Speaker 1: is about to be really badass. So, without further ado,

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Speaker 1: here's episode four of Talking to Death with my good

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Speaker 1: friend Mark Smirling. You have an amazing body of work,

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Speaker 1: and you've done the Jinks, and you have all these

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Speaker 1: podcasts and documentaries all over the place, true crime stuff.

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Speaker 2: Don't you think you're a little fucked up in the head.

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Speaker 1: But no, but seriously, is there not some sort of

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Speaker 1: bizarre connection and you probably put it in a more

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Speaker 1: nuanced way than I could. Is there a fine line

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Speaker 1: between this guy and this guy?

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Speaker 3: Well? I think that crime sort of amplifies drama, mystery.

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Speaker 3: It certainly amplifies a person's personality. So everything that we

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Speaker 3: expect out of life that are like, you know, emotions

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Speaker 3: and stuff that drives story are amplified in the world

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Speaker 3: of crime. So for me, it was always like, this

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Speaker 3: is crazy. It's stranger than fiction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's real life and different.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know how many times

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Speaker 3: you've been in this position. I'm sure you have, But

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Speaker 3: I remember thinking, while making Capturing the Freedman's just how

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Speaker 3: insane that story was and how could these people have

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Speaker 3: manufactured this witch hunt and created this world in this

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Speaker 3: suburban town outside of New York City which is a

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Speaker 3: very wealthy town and persecute this young man And I was, like,

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Speaker 3: it happened. Yeah, So then when you start digging at it,

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Speaker 3: you start to actually see how it happens, you know,

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Speaker 3: because you know, the one thing you don't want to

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Speaker 3: be is the person doing the Wikipedia page, you know version,

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Speaker 3: you know the ABC's of it. You do want to

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Speaker 3: kind of get to some sort of deeper truth about

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Speaker 3: these things.

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Speaker 2: And why do you feel that way?

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Speaker 3: Because I want to know. I want to know why

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Speaker 3: these things are. You want to I want to know

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Speaker 3: why these things happen.

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Speaker 2: You think you tell better stories that way?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Yeah, it's easy to tell crime story. It's

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Speaker 3: hard to tell crime story that makes somebody feel something right,

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Speaker 3: And one of the things I'd like the people to feel,

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Speaker 3: and I don't always get the opportunity in all crime

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Speaker 3: stories is humor, irony being the sort of overriding factor in.

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Speaker 2: A lot more of an absurdity thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the irony of Jim trafficking you know,

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Speaker 3: and the sort of absurdity of it.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think some people there they wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: able to handle being this deep and true crime stories

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Speaker 1: all the time, and from a creative standpoint and talking

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Speaker 1: to the actual victims and you know, chasing down the

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Speaker 1: bad guy.

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Speaker 2: What does that do? How do you deal with that?

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Speaker 2: I guess, but I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't do. I've only done one murder story, the Jinks,

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Speaker 3: you know, and.

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Speaker 2: I actually pretty close, so I mean, right, no, there have.

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Speaker 3: All been like capturing Threedman's was.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean like in the Jinks you got pretty close.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, the Jinks was. But you know, I hate

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Speaker 3: to say this, but i'd written the movie for all

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Speaker 3: good things, yeah, and I was. I kind of went

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Speaker 3: kicking and screaming into making the Jinks because you know

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Speaker 3: the story. Bob reached out. Yeah, because he you know,

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Speaker 3: anybody's going to be played by such a handsome actor, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, is going to reach out.

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Speaker 2: I didn't help himself, couldn't help himself.

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Speaker 3: And and he reached out, and he wanted to do

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Speaker 3: this interview. And I went to meet him at at

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Speaker 3: the and it's a hotel in Beverly Hills. And we

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Speaker 3: got through that meeting and Andrew. Shit came a little later,

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Speaker 3: and my entire mission was to talk Andrew out of

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Speaker 3: making another doc about this guy and to figure out

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Speaker 3: a way to do this interview and give it over

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Speaker 3: to Dateline or someone like that. We cut together a

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Speaker 3: twelve minute, you know, sort of sizzle of it, and

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Speaker 3: we showed it to Diane Sawyer and we were like,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to make a great Dateline. She looked at it,

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Speaker 3: she goes, no, no, no, this is much bigger than Dayline.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh.

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Speaker 3: Darn, you know, it's hard to live in that world.

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Speaker 3: You live in that world much more than I do.

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Speaker 3: Because after that, I did you know? I did Crime Down.

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Speaker 3: It was about a bunch of wise guys and they're hilarious.

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Speaker 2: They are pretty pretty damp playing, you know.

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Speaker 3: And then I did you know? I did other things

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Speaker 3: about organized crime corruption, you know, the biggest embezzlement in

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Speaker 3: US history. But I haven't done another murder show since then.

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Speaker 1: And I've been thinking, or is that, yeah, does it

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Speaker 1: come at a cost? Is that what you're saying?

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Speaker 3: It's one of those stories are very they I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you are as an EmPATH.

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Speaker 2: For the lay person. What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 3: I mean you have to feel when you meet somebody

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Speaker 3: like a Jerry tilling ass who's one of the more

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Speaker 3: violent gangsters in crime Town, you have to you have

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Speaker 3: to kind of find a way into that person so

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Speaker 3: that you can love them because you're going to be

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Speaker 3: telling their story and there's a reason that they're the

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Speaker 3: way they are.

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Speaker 2: Find reason to love them, yes.

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Speaker 3: Because there's a reason the way that they are the

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Speaker 3: way they are, and that's your job to figure that out,

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Speaker 3: you know. And if you listen to Crimetown, you follow

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Speaker 3: Jerry's story, you figure it.

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Speaker 2: Out, you know, you get to the bottom of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you figure out that he was you know, abused

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Speaker 3: as a child, and that he had these brothers and

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Speaker 3: when it was a drug add.

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Speaker 2: Why all this stuff happening?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right right. When you do that on a story,

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Speaker 3: it's it's just much more heart wrenching, you know. It's

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Speaker 3: like you know, you get into especially with missing, missing

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Speaker 3: and murdered women like the McCormick family, it was I

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Speaker 3: just it was heart wrenching to see what that that

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Speaker 3: family had to live with after they you know, Kathy disappeared.

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Speaker 3: It was terrible, you know, it dictated everybody in the

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Speaker 3: families for two generations their life in some terrible subterrane

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Speaker 3: any way, So I was like, I don't want to

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Speaker 3: do that again right now?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you told me. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: want to say, it's the first time I talked to

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Speaker 1: you in like an official capacity. It was on up

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Speaker 1: in Vaners season one. You told me, I think you

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Speaker 1: said these stories never leave you, right, And I asked

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Speaker 1: you to expand on that, and you basically said that

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Speaker 1: you know you're doing this now, but these people will

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Speaker 1: be in your life forever. Yeah, And I mean it

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Speaker 1: couldn't be more true. But you know, is that when

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Speaker 1: did you When did you learn that? I guess, I mean.

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Speaker 3: I learned that on capturing the Friedman's. You know, I still,

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Speaker 3: you know, once in a while, get get together with

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Speaker 3: Jesse Friedman, you know. I mean, after capturing the Freedman's,

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Speaker 3: Andrew and I did a four to forty motion for

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Speaker 3: him to try to get his case slipped at again,

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Speaker 3: which was a disaster at some level, but you know,

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Speaker 3: we did our best, and then you know, we you know,

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Speaker 3: you have to sit by and kind of watch that

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Speaker 3: not happen, knowing that what's really motivating it not happening

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00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 3: is politics and closed mindedness and not necessarily the truth.

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Speaker 2: And you can't physically do it yourself, right, I mean.

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Speaker 3: You can't do it.

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Speaker 1: You're you're you can, you can come up agains, but

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Speaker 1: you cannot be the person to do it.

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Speaker 3: You can't make it happen, right, Judge's going to make

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Speaker 3: that happen. Yeah, So we got close, but we didn't

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Speaker 3: get there. So, you know, you go down, you know,

345
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Speaker 3: you get into these relationships to go on forever. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I have I have a lot of law enforcement contacts,

347
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Speaker 3: and I have a lot of organized crime contacts who

348
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,359
Speaker 3: I'm actually friends with, and you know, they're all you know,

349
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Speaker 3: they're all retired now or somewhat retired, but you know,

350
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Speaker 3: I go and visit him down in Florida and I

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Speaker 3: hang out with them. Nice. They tell great stories because

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Speaker 3: that's what you learn in prison storytelling. Oh yeah, because

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Speaker 3: storytelling in prison is.

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Speaker 2: Like, among other things, probably yeah.

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Speaker 3: But storytelling in prison is like it's a way to

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Speaker 3: kind of make money.

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Speaker 2: Really.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. You can trade stories for cigarettes. Cigarettes are actual money, Yeah,

359
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 3: that's right, cold cash. Yeah, So you can trade. And

360
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Speaker 3: there's one of the guys in who told me that.

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Speaker 3: It was Anthony Fury and Brian. Anthony Fury was in

362
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Speaker 3: crime Town. He was just out of prison when we

363
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 3: started making that, and he was a incredible storyteller and

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Speaker 3: he would tell He would sit there in the prison

365
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Speaker 3: yard and people, the young guys would come around, this

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Speaker 3: old wise guy, and he would tell these outrageous stories

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Speaker 3: and they were outrageous. I don't remember it, but he

368
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,399
Speaker 3: was the guy who, you know, got a bunch of

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Speaker 3: guys together with machine guns and tried to take down

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Speaker 3: armored cars. She's kind of like heat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, some big boys stuff. He ain't playing around, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And he did. I think he spent thirty eight years

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Speaker 3: in prison of his life.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's one place I never want to go, Yeah,

375
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Speaker 2: is a prison cell. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: When you're in that edit mode, do you ever get

377
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Speaker 1: to that point where you go to sleep or something

378
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Speaker 1: and it's still rattling around in your brain where it's

379
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: just like it might be a SoundBite loop or a

380
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 1: musical cue whatever, and it's like it's just sort of

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Speaker 1: propelling you through the day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, apart from the panic attacks of knowing what you're

383
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Speaker 3: going to do to make it great?

384
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Speaker 2: Do you rely on the panic attacks now the job?

385
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 2: But I've learned that's not Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what I've learned is it. And it usually comes

387
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 3: when you're talking about when you're in bed at night

388
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 3: and you're like thinking about something else and then it

389
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 3: just sort of comes.

390
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Speaker 2: I mean trying to figure out figure allus to your

391
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 2: creative problem here.

392
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, your storytelling problem.

393
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, because if you try to force it never comes.

394
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,679
Speaker 1: And you you always try for a minute and then

395
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: you're like, god, yeah, it comes in a dumb.

396
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 3: Time, And that's anxiety provoking. It is because you really

397
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,959
Speaker 3: want to get to the end of the story of

398
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 3: making your story as quickly as.

399
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Speaker 2: He didn't know this, So I can do all these

400
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: other things.

401
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 3: And so I can sleep tonight and I don't have

402
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 3: to think that I'm not going to be.

403
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,600
Speaker 2: Able to do this, you know, So I get some

404
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 2: damn sleep around here, right.

405
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 3: But then you'll be like, it's weird. It's like it's

406
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 3: always happens when I'm not thinking about it, and then

407
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, that's what I

408
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,959
Speaker 3: can do, you know, I can I can go and

409
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 3: take this and move it up in the story and

410
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,360
Speaker 3: it'll it'll give some momentum to this person that I'm

411
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 3: telling this story about, and I start to see it

412
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Speaker 3: more clearly.

413
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Speaker 1: It's like the shower moment. I have those shower moments

414
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: where it'll be actually in the shower and I'm like, oh, oh, there,

415
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 1: I got something that that was the thing I was

416
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 1: looking for last week.

417
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just sets it all in motion. Now.

418
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Speaker 3: The weird thing about it is, after doing it for

419
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 3: so long, I don't necessarily feel like, oh, every time

420
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 3: it's just going to show up. I still have the

421
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 3: anxiety that moment I'm sitting in one time, I'm going

422
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 3: to go dry here, you know what I mean, Like,

423
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 3: I do you run out of cool ideas? I actually

424
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 3: did go dry once. It was directing a music video

425
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 3: for an artist we will not mention oh God, but

426
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 3: it was one of those jobs I should never have taken.

427
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 2: And so what happened then?

428
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: Well, I wrote a treatment I didn't believe in and

429
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 3: I didn't know how it was going to accomplish because

430
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 3: it was not the world I live in.

431
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 2: Why'd you do that?

432
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 3: Money? Okay, Money's a big factor.

433
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 2: You were being overly ambitious or I was.

434
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 3: I needed to keep my business open. I needed to

435
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 3: make money for the company. I needed to keep things

436
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 3: rolling forward. And you know, I'm not you know, I

437
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 3: got talked into what I was. I was probably twenty

438
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 3: six years old, twenty seven years old, and I remember

439
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 3: that was the worst night of my life. I remember

440
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 3: the night before the shoot, I was literally vomiting.

441
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 1: It's like, you're in college. You haven't studied for the

442
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: test yet or something. Yeah, and You're like, why did

443
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 1: I do this to myself? I'm so stupid, I'm about

444
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: to ruin everything exactly, and so what did you do?

445
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 2: You just bombed or what?

446
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 3: No? I powered through and it was a disaster. Why

447
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 3: because I didn't really know how to deal with the

448
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 3: subject matter, which I can't. I can't throw this, you know.

449
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 3: I mean I couldn't. Yeah, I couldn't get my head

450
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 3: or it didn't come. Let's just but it didn't come

451
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night like you usually got. Yeah,

452
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 3: you know, so you know, I just didn't know how

453
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 3: to deal with it. And but I powered through the

454
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 3: shoot and I put the cut together. I was like,

455
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 3: oh man, And then I felt terrible because I really

456
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 3: liked the artist on personal level.

457
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 2: What's huh? What it was a girl, I'll tell you

458
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: that much. Okay.

459
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 3: Anyway, so that was that was an eye opener. I

460
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 3: sort of learned in that moment to turn down work.

461
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: Okay, So what'd you learn besides just turning down work

462
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 1: about yourself?

463
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 3: That I'm not going to be able to figure everything out.

464
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 3: You know that there's going to be stories that I'm

465
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 3: more inclined to figure out. There's a core of who

466
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: you are as a person, and that comes from you know, childhood.

467
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 3: Really yeah, And I think in a lot of really

468
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 3: good storytellers, they're trying to answer the questions of their

469
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 3: formative years. Whether those are questions or you know, on

470
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 3: the battlefields of Vietnam, or those questions are in the

471
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 3: Civil War, doesn't really matter. The questions are all the same.

472
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 3: So for me, you know, getting so involved in crime,

473
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,880
Speaker 3: it was something I was thinking about when I was a.

474
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: Kid, committing crimes exactly.

475
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, can I get away with it? How much can

476
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 3: I get away with? You know, where would I fence?

477
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: I get in trouble? See you you were obsessed with

478
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: crimes as a kid.

479
00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: I was.

480
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 3: Well. Back when I was a kid, we had books.

481
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever seen one of these

482
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 3: but a long time. Yeah, so they we we didn't

483
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: have like there were three. There was ABC, CBS, NBC,

484
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 3: and PBS, okay, you know, and we had local WRTV

485
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: Channel eleven and then Channel five. There's a couple other ones,

486
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 3: but not a lot. Yeah, and you know, it was

487
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 3: a big deal when your TV show came on, right

488
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 3: and you would like everybody would get up in dad's

489
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 3: bed and mom's bed and you sit there and you

490
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 3: watch you know, Banichik, you know. So and I always

491
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 3: love those shows. But why I love those shows is

492
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 3: I was reading Dashel Hammett, Jim Thompson, I was reading

493
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 3: all those noir detective stories. Then I got into when

494
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: I read Capodi, you know, I got into the true

495
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 3: crime stuff, you know, which that book is incredible. I've

496
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: read that and you know, and you know, I just

497
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: started reading vraciously about crime stories, whether it was non

498
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 3: fiction or fiction.

499
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 2: So you had this all to stacking up in your

500
00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 2: brain as a.

501
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: Kid, And yeah, I always wanted to do it. So

502
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 3: that's why I went to newspapers.

503
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 2: But do you want to do it from a fictional standpoint,

504
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: like write a story?

505
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 3: Now? I was always a nonfiction guy.

506
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 2: You wanted to go pook around other real crimes.

507
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, stranger than fiction.

508
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 1: Right, All these years after you first started doing true

509
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: crime stories, do you have any feelings about how big

510
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: the genre of it is now in terms of everything

511
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: that's out there.

512
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: It wasn't always like the No.

513
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 3: There were there were very good writers who are working

514
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 3: in it, and they were usually coming out of newspapers,

515
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 3: you know, and out of journalism, and some were making

516
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 3: it up, like Thomas Perry. But I think it was

517
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 3: probably a newspaper guy first. But then all of a sudden,

518
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 3: I guess I hated you know, the Jinks came out.

519
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: The Jinks sort of reset the uh. I didn't nobody

520
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 3: could have guessed. I mean, I knew it was good.

521
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: You know.

522
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: The term I hear the most in the producing side

523
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: of this content.

524
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: Is we want to get the Jinks moment?

525
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, I bet you even want to

526
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: get the Jinx moments sometimes, right.

527
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 3: I'm not so. I think if you get it once

528
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 3: in a lifetime, you should be very happy.

529
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: You want I'm not already have my CREDI that I

530
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: think I'm going to get another one.

531
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: I'd just rather, you know, lean into the storytelling and try.

532
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: To mean, do you feel like though outside of the

533
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: luck of it all right, because sometimes you cannot.

534
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: I don't know if it was entirely lucky.

535
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I'm getting that.

536
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: I mean, do you feel like it's more of a

537
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: culmination of all the decisions that were made to massage

538
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: it into the possibility of happening, right, or how do

539
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: you view it?

540
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 3: Well, I think it just takes time. It's physics. It

541
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: takes time and pressure. You know, it's work, work, building

542
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 3: the relationship with the sources, for the people you're interviewing

543
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: and the people surrounding the cases and getting closer and closer,

544
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 3: gaining their trust, you know. And I'm not just talking

545
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: about Bob right, because obviously that happened, but I'm talking

546
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 3: about on the law enforcement side too, having you know this,

547
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 3: I'm not saying this is what happened in the jinks,

548
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 3: but having a cop come in with the entire case file,

549
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: put it on the desk and say I'm not supposed

550
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 3: to be showing you this, but I'm going to go

551
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: get a lunch with my buddy. I'll be back in

552
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 3: an hour. And you get to kind of thumb through

553
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 3: everything and actually see things that people have not seen before,

554
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: so that when you see other things, you recognize what

555
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: they are immediately. You know, that takes work. You know,

556
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 3: that letter that we found that was, you know, sort

557
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 3: of the smoking gun for the Susan Berman murder that

558
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 3: you know, had her address written on top, just like

559
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 3: the kudaver note that.

560
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: We sap for me what that meant. In that moment.

561
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 3: Susan Berman was murdered, someone sent a letter to the

562
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: Beverly Hills Police basically saying just with one word cadaver.

563
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: And they had an envelope and a letter inside. And

564
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 3: then you know, a lot of people have never seen that.

565
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 3: Of fact, there are people in law enforcement who had

566
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 3: worked on the prosecution team in White Planes for Bob

567
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: and couldn't describe that letter, you know, because it was

568
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: in the La County lock up, in the Evans room.

569
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 3: But you have to be able to recognize that the

570
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 3: value of something, right, So you see that letter. A

571
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 3: year or two before, you're going through a plastic container

572
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: of correspondence and a guy shows you another letter. Now,

573
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: this one is definitely from Bob and it's to Susan

574
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: Berman and you look at the the way the address

575
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: is written on that letter, and instantaneously you're like, there's

576
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: something about this. That's the hard work. That's the time,

577
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 3: you know, of being able to absorb all that information

578
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: and get so deep into it. You know, you're basically

579
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 3: your nose is the only thing above water, right, and

580
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: you're just you know, you're just sitting there waiting for

581
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 3: the fish to go by, you know. So you know,

582
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 3: it's really hard to do that on every project, but

583
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 3: that project we had the time. So we were digging, digging, digging,

584
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 3: there was no no you know, sometimes we would come

585
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: up against a brick wall and we would find another

586
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 3: way around it. Very simply, it meant that that Bob

587
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 3: had written the cadaver note. And if Bob wrote the

588
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 3: cadaver note in his own words, he had murdered Susan Burman.

589
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 3: So that was a moment. Now that moment, there's other stuff, right,

590
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 3: the building of the when I first called Sarabh Kaufman,

591
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 3: who was you know, Susan Berman's sort of adopted son

592
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: and had built a relationship with Bob after she died.

593
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 3: I mean, basically there were buddies and Bob had paid

594
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 3: for some of his college tuition and had helped him

595
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: out in life. He was not open to the idea

596
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: of Bob Durst being the murderer. I didn't bring it up.

597
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: He didn't necessarily.

598
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: Jump in with that.

599
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, we could necessarily jump on board for the ride.

600
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 3: But I built a relationship with him over time. You know,

601
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 3: after I spoke to him at his place and did

602
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 3: my initial interview with him, I said, Hey, is there

603
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 3: any chance that you know you have stuff of Susan's

604
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: that you kept after she died. Oh, yeah, there's there's

605
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: storage area. Well do you mind. He was very protective

606
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: over this stuff. He wouldn't let me just go through it.

607
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: Do you mind going through the stuff and taking a

608
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: look at it and seeing if there's anything like letters

609
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 3: or anything? So I knew I was looking for a letter. Yeah,

610
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 3: because of the cadaver note. I was looking for handwriting.

611
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: Maybe there's something in there that.

612
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: Could Do you think you'd actually find one?

613
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 3: No, of course not. I never think they're going to

614
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 3: find it. But he called and he recognized it before

615
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: I did.

616
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: It took me.

617
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 3: I don't know, if you if you look that scene again,

618
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 3: it takes me a beat. I look at it. There's

619
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 3: a beat where I don't recognize what it is, and

620
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: then I recognize what it is.

621
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: So in your head, what's going on in that moment?

622
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: What is this guy? Well, there was two things going

623
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: on right. There was my relationship with Sarah, and it

624
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 3: was always a little cat and mouse. I love Sarah

625
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: and he's a great guy, but it was always a

626
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 3: little cat else with him because he was always kind of,

627
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 3: you know, dodgy dodgy and not in a negative sense,

628
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 3: but just in like protecting himself, protecting Bob at some level,

629
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 3: protecting his rights in the story in some weird ownership way.

630
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 3: And so I was thinking that, like, he's what's you

631
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 3: want to show me? What is this going to cost me?

632
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 3: Not financially, but what do we where we go my

633
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 3: signing up for?

634
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: Here? Yeah?

635
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 3: What am I signing up for? And then he showed

636
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 3: it to me and I looked at it and it

637
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 3: took me just a beat or till you see it,

638
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I realize what it is, and and

639
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 3: that moment I was sort of like, oh wow, So

640
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 3: next job is to try to get him to give

641
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: it to me, which I knew was going to be

642
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 3: very difficult.

643
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: Did you think for a second to just take it

644
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: and run out the door.

645
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 3: No, because this is a relationship that I built, and yeah,

646
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: you know it's his his mother basically was murdered. So

647
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: he's got to go through the emotional Remember he's been

648
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: friends with with Bob for years now, Bob's helped him out.

649
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, So he's got to go through setting

650
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: news to ye person. More than anything else.

651
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 3: He certainly knows what it means. And he certainly had

652
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: a reaction, which you see right, Yeah, you know, and

653
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 3: so I needed to let him kind of work it

654
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: out in his head. And uh. It took another three

655
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 3: or four days of just talking and stuff. And one

656
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 3: thing that I was pretty sure of and I talked

657
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 3: about with Andrew a lot, was the fact that if

658
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 3: you just took these disparate pieces of evidence and you

659
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 3: put him in a shoe box and you handed him

660
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: to law enforcement, they would be like, that's great, follow

661
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: it away. You know. It wouldn't be necessarily like, oh,

662
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 3: you guys are geniuses, you figured it all out. Let's

663
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 3: go wrest the guy.

664
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: Cool. But yeah, yeah, so one.

665
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 3: Thing I told I told you know, he there was

666
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: a moment where Sarah was like, I'm just going to

667
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: give this to the police. I said, you could do that,

668
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 3: but can you imagine the pressure to do something positive

669
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: the police will be under if this comes out in

670
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: an HBO multi part series. So you could give this

671
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 3: to the police and they may be like, you know,

672
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 3: we dusted it. We Yeah, it looks a lot like

673
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: you know, his writing, but handwriting is notoriously bad evidence

674
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 3: in the courtroom. That's where we came up with the

675
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 3: idea confronting Bob with that letter. I mean, there was

676
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 3: other people, you know. I mean, now, I guess I

677
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 3: could talk about this stuff because I think Andrew's making

678
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 3: another season of The Jinks about this subject matter. But

679
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 3: I wouldn't talk about it back then. But now, you know,

680
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: we were you know what Marsha Clark is. Yeah, she

681
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 3: was our CONSIGLIERI you know, we needed somebody who had

682
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: worked in the LA DA's office and she would O trow. Yeah,

683
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 3: she did the OJ trow and she was the lead

684
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: prosecutor in that office for a while. So we were like,

685
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: what would you do? And she was like, well, I

686
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 3: agree with you. If you give it to the cops,

687
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 3: say maybe, like okay, yeah, maybe I don't know, he's

688
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 3: going to have the most expensive lawyer in the world.

689
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 3: It's just a writing sample. They're going to come up

690
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 3: with their other writing samples. It's going to be a

691
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 3: big mess in court. We're going to have an expert.

692
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 3: They're gonna he's gonna have an expert. Or be interesting

693
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 3: to see what what Bob says about this?

694
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: Right?

695
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: And so did this speed up the urgency of it

696
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: all in the documentary making process?

697
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 3: Well, everything in the doc's true. So you see in

698
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 3: the dock that Bob must have smelled it a mile

699
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 3: away because he was not running towards the camera. After that,

700
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 3: he was sort of like.

701
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: Is that because he maybe have already told him or what?

702
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: No. I think he woke up one morning. Look, every

703
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 3: he has a lot of lawyers, and I think every

704
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: one of his lawyers like, why are you doing this?

705
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 3: This is the dumbest thing you ever did. You're you're

706
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 3: going to get yourself in trouble.

707
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: Was that just getting to him, you think? And it

708
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: was just coo, Yeah, I think he was.

709
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: Just he was just like you run out. Also, the

710
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 3: more we were like, hey, can you come and do

711
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: another interview, the more he was like why do they

712
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 3: want me to come right and doing interview?

713
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 2: I told you everything.

714
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we always told him that we would do

715
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: a wrap round interview. Okay, but but you know, and

716
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: you know we went through a process to get him

717
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: to sit down. So yeah, it was it took a while,

718
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 3: but we we wanted to get it done as quickly

719
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 3: as possible.

720
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: The whole scene where he's talking to himself right with

721
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: the lot of eer mic on. Was that a conscious decision?

722
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: And could you describe the moment that you realized that

723
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: it happened? Ye?

724
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 3: More than that. So, So I was shooting that main

725
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 3: camera that was the two of them, and I had

726
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: Rosanna who was shooting his second camera sort of running around,

727
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: and Nikita was doing sound. And when we ended, I

728
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: was going to grab the camera, run downstairs and get

729
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 3: them going the elevator and going out the door.

730
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 2: You're thinking about the next shot, Yeah.

731
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about the next shot. I could hear through

732
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: my headphones, you know, Bob talking to Andrew, gotta have

733
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 3: a sandwitche use the bathroom. Let me go use the bathroom.

734
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 3: And I looked over and Nikita was like making the

735
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: cut off cut thing across his neck, should we cut?

736
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 3: And it's digital right at this point, it's not film anymore.

737
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 3: You never need to cut.

738
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, hold the roll, you never need to cut.

739
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 3: It's not going to cost anymore.

740
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

741
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 3: So I'm like, no, keep rolling, and he, you know,

742
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: kept rolling, I guess, I thought. And he went in

743
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 3: the bathroom and I didn't know he still had the

744
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 3: mic on him, and I went and set up to

745
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 3: go follow him downstairs. And that day was over, and

746
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 3: we went back to the edit room and the aes,

747
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 3: the assistant editors, they would go from basically collapse, from

748
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: on off to on off, you know, they would. They

749
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 3: would basically, here's the interview up, camera off. Now there's

750
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 3: a little seven minutes here at the end. They don't

751
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: listen to it. They're just dumping it onto the hard

752
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: drive in files and then selecting from camera on to

753
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 3: camera off. Apparently Nikita had turned it off for a

754
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: second before he went like this, and then he turned

755
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: it back on when I did this, you know, keep rolling,

756
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: and so there was a camera off. So I had

757
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 3: hired a editor named Shelby siegl who worked on capturing

758
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 3: the Freedman's and she's like a rabbinical editor. She's like,

759
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 3: you know, just can sit there and listen to stuff.

760
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 3: Because we were getting close to being done, because we'd

761
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 3: made it all pretty much and all we didn't have

762
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 3: is that bathroom scene. We had the whole thing at

763
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: the end, and I just wanted to go through all

764
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,959
Speaker 3: the Bob interviews and just you know, super smart young lady,

765
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 3: and I just thought.

766
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: Just looking for things that stand out her.

767
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, things that I might have missed. I told her, Yeah,

768
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 3: watch all the episode rough cuts and just maybe there's

769
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 3: stuff I missed, you know. So she started at hour

770
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 3: one and two and three, went through all the twenty

771
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 3: three hours, then went to the second interview, which was

772
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 3: more like two or three hours, and then heard, just

773
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 3: before he touches the doorknob, there it is, You're caught.

774
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 3: There it is, You're caught. And I hear the scream

775
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: in the back room and she says you got to

776
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: come back here, and she plays it. And then Zach,

777
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 3: my partner on Crimetown, he was the main editor, and

778
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 3: he said that, you know, there might be more. We

779
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 3: don't know that. I mean, sometimes you know, we don't

780
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 3: take all of it into the avid. Sometimes pieces get

781
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 3: left behind that are the on off Hill and Dale

782
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 3: lends we should go look in the hard drive. We did.

783
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 3: I called Andrew, I said you got to come down here.

784
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: We got something to play for you. And he was

785
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: about forty minutes away. We got the hard drive, loaded

786
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 3: it up and you could just see on the screen,

787
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 3: you know, the little waves of Bob and we waited

788
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 3: till Andrew came. We played it. That's how that happened.

789
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: And what was the tone in the room at that point?

790
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: Shock nobody, you know, I don't know. I'm not sure.

791
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 3: I wasn't. I was never like gotcha, or we're going

792
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: to make a fortune, or this is going to be

793
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: the best thing ever. It was just sort of like,

794
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: holy molly, Yeah, trying to keep your show.

795
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: And you almost blew it and it didn't if he

796
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: didn't go back that you did miss something, Yeah exactly.

797
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: But I mean it's kind of scary to even think

798
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 2: about that, right, it could.

799
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: Have gone by, But I mean you had someone in

800
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: the right role that you trusted to look around for stuff, right,

801
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: so you were thinking ahead, But scary thought to think

802
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: about how there could be stuff laying around that is

803
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: that little missing.

804
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 3: Piece that sort of solves a crime at some level.

805
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: I mean, you could make an argument that Bob, and

806
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 3: Bob certainly made this argument in the court that he

807
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: was sort of a rambler who was just sort of

808
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 3: talking euphemistically and sarcastically. Sure, But the reality is, when

809
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 3: I was there and he came out of that bathroom,

810
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 3: I think he thought he was going to get arrested,

811
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 3: like a land He looked very anxious. Yeah, so there's

812
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 3: a little another great story about.

813
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: This, Okay, So yeah, that's what you felt in the

814
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 2: moment there, Yeah, like he was he looked scared. Yeah,

815
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: like there was going to be a sting thing coming

816
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: in here. Yeah.

817
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 3: I don't remember when this was, but not long before

818
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 3: we did that interview, or maybe it was right after

819
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 3: that interview. We were just going down in the elevator.

820
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 3: I said, so, what are you doing next? You where

821
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 3: you going and what's happened with your life? And he said,

822
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 3: I'm going to Cuba, That's what he said. I said, oh, yeah,

823
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 3: he said, yeah, I was there a little while ago.

824
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 3: I did a cruise to Cuba. I'm going to go

825
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 3: back to Cuba, and I was like, Cuba. Interesting. When

826
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 3: we handed stuff to the law enforcement, the FBI got

827
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: involved and they were tracking him during the when the

828
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 3: episodes were dropping. We didn't know this. This is something

829
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 3: I learned afterwards. And they saw him throw his He

830
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: was watching the episodes and at one point he throws

831
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: his his cell phone away, so they can't track him

832
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 3: with a cell phone. But they noticed that he was

833
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 3: heading south like towards New Orleans, and he had a

834
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 3: history in the South and getting Galveston. He'd actually had

835
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 3: a safe house in New Orleans that he kept really yeah,

836
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: just in case Galveston was a problem. And so they

837
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 3: started focusing on New Orleans and when they arrested him,

838
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 3: they kind of stumbled across him at the Marriott Hotel there,

839
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 3: you know. They found that rubber mask, They found one

840
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: hundred and thirty thousand dollars in the gun, and they

841
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 3: found a ticket to Cuba, because at that time, New

842
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 3: Orleans was the only place you could fly out of

843
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 3: to get directly to Cuba, really, and Cuba had non

844
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 3: extradition obviously with the United States. So they were that

845
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 3: closet and that was the he knew he was in trouble.

846
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 3: He saw that letter and.

847
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: That was the same problem or just another day. But

848
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: what did you mention Cuba to you.

849
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 3: It was the day we were leaving, the day we

850
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 3: did the interview, So it might have been we met

851
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 3: with without cameras once before that to try to talk

852
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 3: him into doing the interview. It might have been on

853
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 3: that day that he told me about Cuba.

854
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: But you had rattled the cage at this point.

855
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,959
Speaker 3: Oh, he knew he had a problem. He definitely knew,

856
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 3: and when he was watching this series happen, he knew.

857
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 2: Which you are pretty sure he was watching, right.

858
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, because he likes episode three. He hits

859
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 3: the road episode three, if I remember correctly, it ends with.

860
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: That bizarre that he's moving and reacting as these episodes

861
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: are dropping. Yeah, like he's just on the run, in

862
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: sync with the world, learning this for the first time.

863
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure he didn't know that we had a

864
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 3: recording of him talking about it, and.

865
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet that was a surprise. He's like in

866
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: the bathroom, come on, But he did know we had

867
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: the letter.

868
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he saw himself. I mean he was always talking.

869
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: To if you wrote that letter, you may react that way, right,

870
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: or it should mean nothing to you, right, right.

871
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 3: But he also it's interesting because if you watch the

872
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 3: Jinks again, which of course you will do right after

873
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 3: this interview.

874
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll call you every episode and recap.

875
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: You'll notice he talks to himself all the time. We

876
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 3: catch him all the time. There's at the end of

877
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 3: one episode where he's like, I did not intentionally lie.

878
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 3: I did not you know, he's practicing his answers.

879
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: He's like, that is what I need to say.

880
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 3: And his lawyer comes in. He's like, you know, the

881
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: camera's rolling.

882
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they point that out, which is also great

883
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: foreshadowing for what is about to happen.

884
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he did it all the time. I went

885
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 3: followed him around. I don't know if this is a

886
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 3: sidebar story, but he got in trouble with it's in

887
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: the chinks. He got in trouble with his brother. He

888
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 3: approached his house when we were filming him in Times

889
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 3: Square just walking around. His father had a his father

890
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 3: his brother had had a restraining order against him, so

891
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: he violated that anyway. So I would follow him around

892
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 3: and I was I was the only camera guy, and

893
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 3: I was doing audio as well with the headphones on,

894
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: and I would just going for a Starbucks and he'd

895
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 3: be talking to himself. And that's the first time I

896
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 3: heard the word Cuba. He was tying his shoes in Starbucks,

897
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 3: and he was like a Cuba you'd be would mumble

898
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 3: just saying Cuba. Yeap, he had probably I thinky what

899
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 3: he might have been saying is, yeah, well I'll go

900
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 3: to Cuba. Maybe next month I'll go to Cuba.

901
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: Is this Are you just an earshot of this or

902
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 2: is no?

903
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 3: No, I'm hearing through the he's fired.

904
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: But he's by himself.

905
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 3: He's by himself, he thinks.

906
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: So he's doing this by himself at his house here. Yeah.

907
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 3: Right, I'm over here in the corner of Starbucks in

908
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 3: my camera just shooting him wild. There's some of that,

909
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 3: I think in the git there is. Yeah, there's some

910
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 3: of that in the chinks. And then I also had

911
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 3: a still camera, my medium formats all the whole publicity,

912
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 3: that big poster on the side, that was stuff. I

913
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 3: shot him that day on a medium format Mama camera, film,

914
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 3: camera film.

915
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: You said earlier that you try to find compassion in

916
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: these people when you're telling the story, and that.

917
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: Is part of your job. Yeah, were you able to

918
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 2: do that with Robert Durst?

919
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 3: Yeah? How well, it's all in episode two, isn't it.

920
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 3: So episode one is sort of a boiler or played

921
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: of who this guy is and what he's accused of.

922
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 3: Then he sits down at the end he's going to

923
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 3: talk to us in the episode two is about his

924
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 3: life and how he was now whether these things are true,

925
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: you know, like Doug Dur's like the fact that his

926
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: mother jumped off the roof and he was watching, he says,

927
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 3: because his father had woken him up to try to

928
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 3: lure the mother back to the window she was on

929
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: the roof of the house. Doug came out afterwards and said,

930
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 3: that's not true. It doesn't really matter because in Bob's

931
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: mind it's true. You know, in Bob he remembers it.

932
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: That's how he remembers it.

933
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

934
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 3: Right, And here is a guy who I believe has

935
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 3: got pieces that are actually missing, like he's got some

936
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 3: sort of he's on the spectrum in some way, and

937
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 3: he's competing against a brother who's very intelligent. He's not unintelligent,

938
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 3: he just doesn't have the same deck of cards sure

939
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 3: that his brother has for the family business. And he

940
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 3: has a very overbearing father who you know, he would

941
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 3: like to please in some subconscious way, but hates consciously

942
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 3: all the stories about him being in the sushi at

943
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 3: the company meetings, and you know, showing up dressed in

944
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: shorts and a T shirt for big meetings and just

945
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 3: being a complete rebel. You know how he went up

946
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 3: to Vermont and started a health food store and also

947
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 3: smoke pot just all day long, every day. It's a

948
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 3: big pot smoker. So he was damaged goods. He was

949
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 3: damaged goods. And you know, in some ways he was

950
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 3: sort of constructed to commit these crimes, you know, by who,

951
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 3: by his physiological and neurological makeup, whatever was happening in

952
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 3: his brain that was limiting his ability to feel sympathy

953
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 3: because he was not an EmPATH at all. And what

954
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 3: was happening in his life, the pressure he was under

955
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:03,479
Speaker 3: to be the next heir to the Durst real estate

956
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 3: fortune and then losing that. People don't know this and

957
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,479
Speaker 3: they it's in the jinks, I think. But he didn't

958
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: speak to his family for years after he was passed over.

959
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 3: He left town. He was out crushed him, crushed him,

960
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 3: and I feel like, you know, those were the years

961
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 3: that he was with Kathy. He was supposedly working, but

962
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 3: he was rebelling. He was not functional. In the family business.

963
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 3: He was competing against Doug, who was much more capable.

964
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 3: His father was in this position of tough love probably

965
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 3: combined with what do I do with this? You know?

966
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 3: And you know, Kathy was stepping out. He was stepping out,

967
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 3: Kathy was stepping out. Kathy was unhappy. Kathy was going

968
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 3: to medical school. She was successful at it. She was

969
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 3: going to be successful. She was going to be a

970
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 3: doctor and independent, not dependent on him.

971
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 2: And so how did that make him? Phil?

972
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 3: You think he was going to lose somebody else because

973
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 3: of who he is, right, So that was not going

974
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 3: to happen. So, you know, they had an argument, he

975
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 3: killed her.

976
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: So how did it spin from one murder to more

977
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 2: than that?

978
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: Then it was just about covering his tracks. So you know,

979
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 3: in two thousand and this is all that. This is

980
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 3: the story of the Jenks. In two thousand and one seven,

981
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,959
Speaker 3: oh my god, anyway, what year is it? And Janey

982
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 3: Piro reopened the da in Westchester County, reopened the case,

983
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 3: and Saber rattled a lot about going after him, and

984
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 3: and he disappeared. Went down to Galveston as a woman,

985
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 3: lived in an apartment in a house like a you know,

986
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 3: like a college kid wouldn't even want to live in it,

987
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: you know, and befriended a guy named Morris Black, and

988
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 3: you know, and the rest of that is history. Morris

989
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 3: ended up body parts floating around Galveston Bay.

990
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: Why did he commit that second murderer? I mean what,

991
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 2: Morris probably figured out who he was, so.

992
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: You think everything from that point, from the murder of

993
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: his wife was just covering up.

994
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 3: It's about betrayal. Track, it's about betrayal. There's two things

995
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 3: I used to say to Andrew. If you're if you're

996
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 3: in a relationship with Bob Durst, never ask him for money.

997
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: Why it's a trigger. So you know, there was there

998
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 3: were reports that Kathy was contacting other family members and

999
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 3: she was asking money because he'd cut her off as

1000
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 3: a way to control her. And you know, and then

1001
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 3: when she initiated divorce proceedings, she was asking for two

1002
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty thousand dollars settlement, which they could have afforded.

1003
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 3: It's like nothing to the Durst family, right, But he

1004
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 3: refused and then they got in this argument and she

1005
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 3: was killed. Morris, I'm pretty sure figured out who this

1006
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 3: guy was and was like, okay, now you got to

1007
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 3: pay me, you know, to get my mouth shut right,

1008
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 3: And that was the end of him. And then Susan

1009
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 3: Berman was having a hard time. She was broke, completely broke.

1010
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: She was living in a borrowed apartment house in Beverly Hills.

1011
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 3: She had no money. She had already borrowed two twenty

1012
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 3: five thousand dollars installments from Bob, and she was probably

1013
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 3: asking for more money. She's probably the only person who

1014
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 3: knew that Bob had murdered Kathy. And somebody called the

1015
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 3: hospital where the medical school where Kathy was going to

1016
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 3: medical school, after he would have been able to kill her,

1017
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 3: saying that she was sick and she couldn't show up

1018
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 3: the medical school that week. That was probably Susan.

1019
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 2: So how did you find compassion for this person?

1020
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 3: First of all, Bob was funny. He was you know,

1021
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 3: you could sit and talk to the guy. He was

1022
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 3: amusing in a very off kilter sort of way. And

1023
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 3: you could see that he suffered what is this constant

1024
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 3: pot smoking and drug taking, but medicating himself against his

1025
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 3: own mind, right, you know, he was suffering all the time.

1026
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 3: To say that he was a sociopath that felt no guilt,

1027
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 3: I don't think that's true. I think he felt a

1028
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 3: lot of guilt about That's why I sent the cadaver

1029
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: butt note. You know, that's why he left little pieces

1030
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 3: of evidence along the way and by the way, that's

1031
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 3: why he reached out to us. He had a compulsion

1032
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 3: to confess.

1033
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: Okay, See, you think that he was just playing with

1034
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: fire and trying to just testing whether or not he

1035
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: would tell you everything.

1036
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 3: Oh how many of these guys who do these crimes

1037
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 3: end up somehow trying to not get caught, but to

1038
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 3: take credit for them. That's one part of it. The

1039
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 3: other part of it is, I think he had a

1040
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 3: compulsion to confess. I think he had guilt. I think

1041
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: he wanted to. He wanted to, you know, get it

1042
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 3: off his chest. He was eating at him. Man, he

1043
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 3: had so many physical problems that were like, you know,

1044
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,879
Speaker 3: he had terrible gurd. Yeah, God is right, So it's

1045
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,439
Speaker 3: an anxiety issue. Yeah, right, So he had awful gourd.

1046
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 3: They had done the surgery on his esophagus. He had

1047
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 3: all kinds of physical problems from years of drug abuse,

1048
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 3: alcohol abuse, and just living with the guilt of all

1049
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 3: these things.

1050
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 2: He had done.

1051
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 3: So, yeah, you feel bad for him, you know, I

1052
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 3: was happy when he got caught, and I was happy

1053
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 3: for the McCormick family that they had some sort of closure.

1054
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 3: Although he was never actually convicted of Kathy's murder, but

1055
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 3: you can still feel bad for the guy.

1056
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 2: Did you ever talk to Bob after he was arrested? No, No, that.

1057
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 3: Would have been bad for everybody.

1058
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't think so.

1059
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 3: I mean, there was a time when we thought that

1060
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 3: we would be a big part of the trial, right

1061
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 3: because you know, the defense was going to be and

1062
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 3: they started with this. There was a little rumblings with this.

1063
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 3: Those those greedy filmmakers set my poor Bob up, you know,

1064
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 3: my flying up.

1065
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: And they didn't get that far though.

1066
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, they cut it all together and made something out

1067
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 3: of it. But the judge, Yeah, but the judge, we

1068
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 3: really didn't. I mean the judge and John Lewin, who's

1069
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 3: a brilliant cold case prosecutor, they headed that off the

1070
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 3: pass by basically saying, well, we're not going to use

1071
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 3: the jinx's evidence in a trial. We're going to use

1072
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 3: the footage, the raw footage, uh, and we're going to

1073
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 3: use the recordings audio recordings, but and they're not going

1074
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 3: to be edited. And your experts can look at it

1075
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 3: and say they're not edited, and that's what we're going

1076
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 3: to use. We're not going to call the film. And

1077
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 3: then when the defense try to call the film, I

1078
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 3: think the judge said, it's not doesn't it's not doesn't

1079
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 3: make any sense that that would be part of this trial.

1080
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: We're not. The film is not on trial.

1081
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:50,720
Speaker 2: Right.

1082
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 3: There was a moment when I thought I'd have to testify. Yes,

1083
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 3: I'm very very happy that I didn't have to.

1084
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 2: That would be fun. No, I thought I was going

1085
00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 2: to have to as well for Up and Vanish.

1086
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 3: Right, we had a very similar experience.

1087
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: Right, it was pretty so, I mean it was my

1088
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: Jenkes moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah it was.

1089
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 3: I think the first time we talked to you said

1090
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 3: that you were looking for a Jinks moment. You you

1091
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 3: like you saw the Jinks here?

1092
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 2: Was it before my Jinxs moment?

1093
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 3: Yes, it was when I came down to Atlanta, the

1094
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 3: first foreshadowing when we got drunk in that bar with Donald.

1095
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1096
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Doll had one drink and he was drunk.

1097
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 2: We had five. He's the best.

1098
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:28,720
Speaker 3: I love Donald.

1099
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a weird. It's a weird moment.

1100
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when it takes this big turn like that,

1101
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: and now there's all these other players in the system

1102
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 1: involved as a reaction to something that you did in

1103
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: your investigative work.

1104
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know it's.

1105
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 3: What was your strategy? I know what my strategy was

1106
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 3: when I when I when law enforcement got involved, which

1107
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 3: was not something like you see in the movies. You know,

1108
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: we had to I think I made a four versions

1109
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 3: of a power point that showed.

1110
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 5: The la DA and we had a whole process by

1111
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 5: which basically we were like, you need to look at this,

1112
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 5: you know, and luckily John Lewin was a very very

1113
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:13,399
Speaker 5: smart guy and.

1114
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 3: He got it. Yeah, but what was it like for

1115
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 3: you when you when you engage with them? Was it confrontational?

1116
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 3: Because a lot of times.

1117
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 1: At what point in time, Because in the beginning, it was,

1118
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, the local police would entertain me enough to

1119
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: talk to me, at least one of the sheriffs would,

1120
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: but they really kind of wanted to figure it out

1121
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: on their own, and they didn't really think that this

1122
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: was important. You know, this is just some random guy

1123
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: from Atlanta making a podcast in South Georgia.

1124
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: Who cares? I mean, if you're one of those.

1125
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,280
Speaker 1: Executives, who's you know, scratching their head, bagging their headgainst

1126
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: the wall, trying to figure out how to make a hit.

1127
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 2: What is it like? In your opinion?

1128
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: That is the special sauce When it comes to why

1129
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: this one has that big moment.

1130
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, one doesn't.

1131
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 3: I've lost track of that. I can't say like.

1132
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 2: You did at one now you don't, or yeah.

1133
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,839
Speaker 3: Generally, I'm not really sure there was a time when oh,

1134
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 3: this is this is. This is a difficult subject because

1135
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 3: there's social and political considerations that come into making these

1136
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 3: choices now that we're not part of the equation before.

1137
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that that's wrong at all any and

1138
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 3: any way, but it makes it more difficult to figure

1139
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 3: out how to There's like two more pieces to the

1140
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 3: puzzle that you have to make to create a piece

1141
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 3: of IP. It doesn't have to it doesn't just have

1142
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 3: to be compelling, have momentum, have central characters you love,

1143
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 3: and all the things that we used to do. It

1144
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 3: has to have, you know, all these politically correct pieces

1145
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:50,359
Speaker 3: to it. Sure, and so I'm not really sure how

1146
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 3: much of that, how little of that is you know

1147
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 3: the the you know, I don't know how to do

1148
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 3: how to how to quantify.

1149
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: That, right, and maybe does anyone per se I mean,

1150
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: I think that me as a society. And then they

1151
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: were making it up. We were creating these you know,

1152
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: these boundaries or the recipe for what it should be

1153
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: as we're going here.

1154
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 3: Right, well, we're trying to make something compelling. Yeah, yeah,

1155
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 3: we weren't thinking about that, but I think we needed

1156
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 3: to be thinking about that, so you know that there's

1157
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 3: other stories that need to be told, and you know,

1158
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 3: and other storytellers who should be telling those stories. I

1159
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 3: when I was making music videos, it was all hip

1160
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 3: hop and rap and name one. And then I wasn't

1161
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 3: the guy to make those anymore.

1162
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: No name one, g rap, coolio, Coolry J Blige, really yeah,

1163
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: and not all.

1164
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 3: As director, I had a company called Notorious, and I

1165
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 3: had other directors. We did rock and roll, we did

1166
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 3: we did everything. Marilyn Manson, we did everybody.

1167
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 2: What was your favorite one? You think of all the.

1168
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 3: Ones that we made or the ones that I mean,

1169
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 3: I made the gwanton Emera video for the Fujis. It

1170
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 3: got nominated for an MTV Award. Nice I really liked

1171
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 3: working for with the Fuji's Lauren Hill. She was amazing.

1172
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 3: But you know, I did, like I did a documentary

1173
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 3: about Destiny's Child for Columbia Records. I mean I was

1174
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 3: in the music world, you know. Yeah, yeah, are.

1175
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 2: You always into the music scene?

1176
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 3: I mean hip hop and stuff In the beginning for me,

1177
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm going to say, so many things get

1178
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 3: me in trouble. But when puff Daddy got into it, yeah,

1179
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 3: and it became you know, puff Dding no longer his name, okay,

1180
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 3: whatever his name is now. Yeah, So when it became

1181
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 3: Bling and Benjamin's and Booties, I was sort of like,

1182
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 3: all right, I don't know if I want to do

1183
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 3: this anymore.

1184
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 2: That's a long time ago.

1185
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,479
Speaker 3: Then I'm old because I was doing cool g rap

1186
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 3: and we were doing we were going down to Houston songs.

1187
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 2: That you'd like.

1188
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: There is I mean, no doubt the sound has changed

1189
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: and there's some stuff that you probably would not like.

1190
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 3: But no, there was just a period where it was

1191
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 3: all you know, the cars and the women and the

1192
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 3: money and the gold and the day, and.

1193
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 2: That was just it wasn't Puff Daddy doing that too.

1194
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Okay, yes, you mean when

1195
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 3: he came in it changed everything. Oh oh, I see

1196
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 3: it changed everything. Biggie was amazing, but you know, but

1197
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 3: it changed a lot about what was and for the better.

1198
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 3: I mean, but it wasn't stories. I could tell. Everything

1199
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 3: I was doing was a story. You know, Scarface he

1200
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 3: told stories. Cool g rap he told a story, and

1201
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,919
Speaker 3: you know, so we would just cinematize. Yeah, the rap song.

1202
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 3: It was kind of really fun.

1203
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and then we went to life really yeah.

1204
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, but then it became you know, I'm not a

1205
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 3: choreographer and I'm not you know, I'm not a fashion

1206
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 3: designer or you know, so so it wasn't going to

1207
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 3: be for me anymore.

1208
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 1: I mean, would you learn from that that you were

1209
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: able to apply later at all?

1210
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 3: Because I was shooting him, That's where I learned it.

1211
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: I used to do music videos too, where it's like

1212
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: and they seem like starkly different where you have Okay,

1213
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 1: I was doing hip hop videos and I'm doing I'm

1214
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 1: investigating a cold case and telling a story.

1215
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:11,439
Speaker 3: I wasn't doing it all at the same time.

1216
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 2: Well I wasn't either.

1217
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 3: But just to make a long story short, when I

1218
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 3: got I worked for Brokaw, there was a crash in TV.

1219
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 3: This is not the first one we're going through right now.

1220
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 3: And I'd come east to work on a weekly show

1221
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 3: with Tom called I can't remember what it was called.

1222
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 3: It was an investigative show.

1223
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 2: And what time.

1224
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 3: Period is this? What year was this?

1225
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 2: Like a round one?

1226
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 3: Nineteen ninety two? Yeah, And then everything got canceled and

1227
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 3: I was working as a waiter at an Italian restaurant

1228
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 3: on eighty sixth Street. And then I got a job

1229
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 3: with Berlsconi Television and I did that for a while.

1230
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 3: I really built their thing in Rockfeller Center and everything

1231
01:00:58,760 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 3: like that, and did a bunch of work with them

1232
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 3: and was night editing, and and then you know, a

1233
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 3: friend of mine said to me, I'm starting a company

1234
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 3: do music videos, and do you want to do them?

1235
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 3: And hip hop and rap was just it was still

1236
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 3: something in the street. It was Bismarckuy, yeah, one hundred

1237
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 3: and twenty fifth Street, you know, And and we just

1238
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 3: start shooting him. We had clients wh would show up

1239
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 3: with thirty five thousand dollars and shopping bags, yeah, to

1240
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 3: shoot a music video.

1241
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 2: I've been paid that way too, actually, Yeah.

1242
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: And what I did was I shot him. You know,

1243
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 3: you didn't get cinematographer, you got a camera.

1244
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. You're the guy who does this now.

1245
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, you know. So I you know, I

1246
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 3: had gone to film school. My cinematographer teacher was Conrad Hall,

1247
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 3: so I knew how to shoot stuff. So all of

1248
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 3: a sudden, this stuff he was making jumped up in

1249
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 3: quality a bunch, you know, And and we started just

1250
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 3: growing and growing, and we had other directors, directors. Marcus

1251
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 3: ray Boy, I don't know if you've heard that name.

1252
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 3: He was a big hip hop director back then. Guy

1253
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 3: Gia was a big director back then. Paul Fedor was

1254
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 3: a big director back then.

1255
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 1: You have a good memory, No, not so good, but yeah,

1256
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 1: I mean that that leap. I think for some people

1257
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: it is hard to understand. Yeah, you know, and they

1258
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: seem like they're very different. Is there any crossover to you?

1259
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 3: And for me, they weren't because they were about I

1260
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 3: thought there was a revolution going on. Listening to the music,

1261
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,919
Speaker 3: oh yeah, and talking to these guys, I thought that they.

1262
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 2: Were still bigger than just a music video. To you, yeah, I.

1263
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 3: Thought we were doing something important for sure, and that

1264
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 3: ended obviously.

1265
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: Is that important to you and telling a story? Is

1266
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: that you feel like it's something important?

1267
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 3: It must be. I try not to think about it

1268
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 3: because it sounds very you know, platitudy, But it must

1269
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 3: be because I'm always looking for it, that important story.

1270
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 2: Do you think you'll ever stop being a storyteller?

1271
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 3: Let's see the only way I can make a living.

1272
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 3: So I still wait tables. But he would hurt a lot.

1273
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they would. I come tippy every now and then.

1274
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 1: I mean, seriously, me, is there ever going to be

1275
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: a moment that you think that you could that you'll

1276
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: hang up the hat and you'll just stop. Are you

1277
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: gonna just Martin Scorsese The Ship where you just do

1278
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 1: a city?

1279
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 3: Lumette? I would like to think, Well, he's eighty three,

1280
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 3: Sidney Lumette, you know he is. He day Afternoon. He

1281
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 3: did a lot of movies, Prince of the City, that

1282
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 3: where you would love that are based on true stories. Okay,

1283
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 3: it was a Sidney Lumette film. And his last film

1284
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 3: was When the Devil Knows You're Dead. I think is

1285
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 3: the name of the so good Philip Seymour Hoffman, and

1286
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 3: and I think he was eighty three. He did it

1287
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 3: almost a movie a year, so he was eighty three

1288
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 3: years old. And he died within a couple of years

1289
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 3: of that. So yeah, well what else would I do?

1290
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 2: I want to say?

1291
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is right you guys at

1292
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: some like only at a certain point in the series

1293
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: and the jinks turn the cameras back around.

1294
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 3: Yourselves a little bit, only after we found the letter.

1295
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 2: And so was that a conscious thing, right? I mean

1296
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 2: just no, it was what happened.

1297
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of like, well, I mean in

1298
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: terms of the you guys weren't filming yourselves at all

1299
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: really now all of a sudden, now we're I mean,

1300
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 1: so when did that thought come into play? Say, hey,

1301
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 1: well this is happening. Should we just be recording this?

1302
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 3: When Zach and right when Zach and I were out

1303
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 3: in California and and Sarah Kaufman called and he said,

1304
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 3: I found something. I need you to come over here.

1305
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 3: And I was like, what you said? I can't tell you,

1306
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 3: but I'll show you when you get here. I was like,

1307
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 3: all right, we got to shoot.

1308
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 2: This, okay.

1309
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 3: It was sort of the first time, Yeah, that we

1310
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 3: that that was your first thought, right, remember we you know,

1311
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 3: we were sort of experimenting with small cameras at that time.

1312
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 3: We used I think the little cannons the which oh

1313
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 3: like the yeah, the old and so the little ones

1314
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 3: that were tiny, okay, yeah, and so we shot that,

1315
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 3: and then of course from that moment, I'm like, now

1316
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 3: we're not taking we can't turn the cameras off at all.

1317
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:11,840
Speaker 3: We're gonna shoot everything.

1318
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why from that point forward, you were That's

1319
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: why all systems go like, we're recording.

1320
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 3: Right when we found the bathroom recording, that's why I'm like,

1321
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 3: don't play it. I'm gonna call Jareki, set up a camera.

1322
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, capture it in the moment. Yeah, yep.

1323
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 3: So we became players because we were players at that

1324
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 3: point in the in the drama. You know, we've found

1325
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 3: this thing. Sarah had found this thing and shown it

1326
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 3: to us, and then we were gonna have to figure

1327
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 3: out what it meant, what we were going to do

1328
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 3: with it. I mean a lot of people, you know,

1329
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 3: there were a couple of people, not a lot, but

1330
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 3: there were a few people who are like, why did

1331
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 3: you give them the law enforcement right away? The guy

1332
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 3: could have murdered three more people.

1333
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 1: Because I knew about her. Well, I mean that's a

1334
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: you know, a big decision. But you also didn't tell

1335
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: her not to do it, you said to me, Sarah, Yeah,

1336
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 1: you said, I told them, you know it's gonna happen.

1337
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: They're gonna put it in a box.

1338
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 3: That's I think they're gonna put it in a box,

1339
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 3: shove it in Evans room, and then it'll be gone forever.

1340
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 3: And just like they right, you need the pressure of

1341
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 3: something big coming down the pipe, which is like an

1342
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 3: HBO series to get people to pay attention. And that

1343
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 3: was the leverage through the whole conversation with the DA's

1344
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 3: robbery homicide in l A. The leverage we had to

1345
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 3: get them to pay attention was we're making it. It's coming.

1346
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: Really they may We just said the storm's coming that

1347
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 1: we got it's gonna be big.

1348
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 3: It's you want to see what we got, Yeah, we'll

1349
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 3: show you. And you know in the jinks, they're not

1350
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 3: in it. We weren't doing that because we were like,

1351
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 3: it's going to make a better show if we have

1352
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 3: the cops coming at the end and arrest them. That's

1353
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 3: not part of it. Yeah, you know, I think that's

1354
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 3: you know, that would have been wrong. But what is

1355
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 3: what we were doing was you know, I'd spent I mean,

1356
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 3: Andrew and I had spent so much time with the

1357
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 3: McCormick family. We were just trying to get some closure

1358
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 3: and you know, even you know, the Sarab thing was

1359
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 3: what do we say? It was? Uh we you had

1360
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 3: a good word for it, rocky.

1361
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 2: Oh no, I said, dodgy, dodgy, Well, dodgy. Right.

1362
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: You know it's like you'll be able to eventually get

1363
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 1: a hold of this person most likely, right, And you

1364
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:33,600
Speaker 1: know it might take a lot more effort, but if

1365
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: you've already given it a go, you might need to

1366
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: give it a beat before you go send that long

1367
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: text whatever it is that your method is to try

1368
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: to get someone's attention and tell them what you're trying

1369
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: to do. Never, I mean we got different methods then, yeah,

1370
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 1: I mean I'm texting stuff that I text people who

1371
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 1: liked to text.

1372
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, of course, right, And this.

1373
01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: Guy I called me I called to do recordings stuff

1374
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: and or but sometimes just a setup situation where it's like, hey,

1375
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: like a logistical thing and making sure everyone's comfy.

1376
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 3: This is getting into the territory of like tactics, which

1377
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 3: I don't like to.

1378
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 2: Do, Like, oh, that's not the class we're doing today.

1379
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, I don't want to ready

1380
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 3: to ever think that I'm doing something to them that

1381
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:23,719
Speaker 3: is like a tactic.

1382
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the and that's I mean, and it isn't

1383
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 1: is a thing, right, It's it's as much of a

1384
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 1: tactic as it is a getting to know somebody thing.

1385
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,600
Speaker 2: It's like if I want to be your friend, and

1386
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 2: I what.

1387
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 1: I say to people is that if I expect people

1388
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable with me, then I have to be

1389
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 1: vulnerable with them.

1390
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:48,679
Speaker 3: I'm with you one hundred percent. But how you deliver

1391
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 3: that information, there's for me, there's a three tiers. It

1392
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 3: is really there's a three tier value or three things

1393
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 3: you can do. You can talk to them. That's the best,

1394
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:02,879
Speaker 3: you know, Like nothing shows that you want their attention

1395
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 3: then flying across the country at showing up at their door,

1396
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:07,639
Speaker 3: taking them to dinner.

1397
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, I'll be there tomorrow.

1398
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 3: I often tell my producers that dinners are the most

1399
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 3: important thing you're gonna do.

1400
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1401
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 3: Right. That's the second thing is writing a letter. I

1402
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 3: write a lot of letters because a lot of the

1403
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 3: guys physical letters, physical letters.

1404
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 2: And you go to the you go to a mailbox

1405
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 2: and you you lick a stamp and you use that.

1406
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:27,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, especially if they're improved.

1407
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 2: I mean, you're right, there's something just you know, it's

1408
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 2: specially you get a letter, you feel special.

1409
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 3: It's not even that they feel special.

1410
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 2: It's does anymore either. Though.

1411
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:38,719
Speaker 3: It's a contract you can hold in your hand.

1412
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 2: Oh it's you mean as a just a representation of this.

1413
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:44,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is who I am. You can hold in

1414
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 3: your hand, you can weigh it. I took the time

1415
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 3: to do it. It's not disposable, you know, it's something

1416
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 3: that exists in the world.

1417
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1418
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 3: The last thing is it is an email?

1419
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:56,559
Speaker 2: Oh?

1420
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, the last thing is an email because it's so disposable, and.

1421
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,840
Speaker 1: It just I mean, I say text because texts are

1422
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:06,360
Speaker 1: more intimate than an email is. Yes, an email is

1423
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 1: just automatically cold. There's nothing personal, I mean unless you're

1424
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,240
Speaker 1: just saying I've said my piece and that's it to

1425
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 1: some business person.

1426
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Can I tell you a story about this? And

1427
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 3: I'm working on something right now. It's a wise guy

1428
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 3: thing with the New York Mafia and I'm just trying

1429
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 3: to round I'm just trying to doubt all the eyes

1430
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 3: and you know, figure out who's who and what's what.

1431
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 3: And there's one guy who's in prison who's a very

1432
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 3: high up in this crime family. He's been in prison

1433
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 3: for a very long time though it's probably going to

1434
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 3: be in prison forever. So of course that's a letter.

1435
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 3: I can't call a guy in prison. I write him

1436
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 3: a letter, and like a week or two later, I

1437
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,799
Speaker 3: get a text. He's texting me from prison.

1438
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I got a story about that too.

1439
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:00,760
Speaker 2: I don't know if I can double for this or not.

1440
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:03,799
Speaker 3: I just don't name any names.

1441
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's no names here. Okay, there was a time.

1442
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's been a couple of times, but there's

1443
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 1: one time that this is the way that it happened

1444
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:14,799
Speaker 1: that I.

1445
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 3: You probably shouldn't tell this story.

1446
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 2: What is the what let's look up.

1447
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think that's a good This is not

1448
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,040
Speaker 3: a good story to tell. Okay, you tell me when we.

1449
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 2: Have yeah, we'll cut.

1450
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:27,719
Speaker 4: Cut.

1451
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 1: I think you using the word tape, I mean, because

1452
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 1: I have zero reason to use the word tape other

1453
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 1: than it's like that's what the guys say. I guess,

1454
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 1: but it's not tape anymore. But yeah, when you say

1455
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:42,600
Speaker 1: tape in a production sense, you know what.

1456
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 3: I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.

1457
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 2: I want that good tape. Yeah, yeah, just to kind

1458
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 2: of close it out years ago. You you you.

1459
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: Left a little earworm in my head about you know,

1460
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:55,920
Speaker 1: these stories never leave you.

1461
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 2: What are your words of wisdom today? What would you say?

1462
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 1: It?

1463
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 2: Better be good?

1464
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 3: God boy?

1465
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't vomit?

1466
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I guess the thing I would say

1467
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 3: is what I often say is you know, when we

1468
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 3: were making the Jinks, I met Dick Degarran, and Dick

1469
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 3: de Garan told me once he said, if you're going

1470
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 3: to be a defense lawyer in a murder trial, you

1471
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 3: only have to prove two things. You got to prove

1472
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 3: that the victim deserve getting murdering and your client is

1473
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 3: the guy to do it. So that was sort of

1474
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 3: his strategy murder trials. So often I find myself telling

1475
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 3: young podcast people who bring me a pilot tape because

1476
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 3: they've been working on it for three four years. You

1477
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 3: got to figure out why you're the guy to tell

1478
01:12:54,840 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 3: the story and why the story is worth telling, you know.

1479
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 3: So those are two things. That's what. There's a lot

1480
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 3: of stuff out there, and some of it's good, but

1481
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 3: the stuff that really touches people, the stuff that really

1482
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 3: makes connection with people, It goes ballistic. It's stuff where

1483
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:18,000
Speaker 3: you know, it's s down, it's those it's those stories

1484
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 3: serial where the person who's telling the story connects themselves.

1485
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be like and then you know,

1486
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:27,719
Speaker 3: we were driving the car together to rob a bank.

1487
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 3: It has to be an emotional connection. And then you've

1488
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 3: got to figure out why, why the story needs to exist?

1489
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 2: Why me? Why?

1490
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 4: No?

1491
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. I like that, cheers man. Yeah, one

1492
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 2: more take.

1493
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,720
Speaker 4: Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and

1494
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:57,639
Speaker 4: iHeart podcast created and hosted by Pain Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV,

1495
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 4: executive producers are Pain Lindsey and Donald Albright. Co executive

1496
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 4: producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are

1497
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 4: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup

1498
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:14,480
Speaker 4: and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,

1499
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 4: Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustave Wilde for Coohedo. Production

1500
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:23,679
Speaker 4: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing

1501
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 4: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover

1502
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 4: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website,

1503
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 4: Talking Todeathpodcasts dot com