Speaker 1: And really go through some journal prompts like ask yourself,
Speaker 1: why do I do the things that I do? Do
Speaker 1: they genuinely make me happy? Or do they make other
Speaker 1: people happy? So it makes me happy? Right? This transitive
Speaker 1: property of happiness? And do I have to do them today?
Speaker 2: It's great to have Isra Nasser on the podcast. Isra
Speaker 2: is an author, speaker, and therapist whose latest book is
Speaker 2: about toxic productivity. In this episode, we discuss her definition
Speaker 2: of toxic productivity, why addressing our emotional foundation is one
Speaker 2: of the most important parts of healing and fulfillment, and
Speaker 2: how we can challenge the instinct to trust the negative
Speaker 2: beliefs we hold for ourselves. We also discuss the importance
Speaker 2: of self care, the connection between productivity and self worth,
Speaker 2: and how to transform shame into curiosity. This was an
Speaker 2: important chat on a topic that I think we can
Speaker 2: all relate to at various points in our lives, so
Speaker 2: that further ado I bring you Isra.
Speaker 1: I love the jacket.
Speaker 3: I love it too, Yes, I got it recently and
Speaker 3: I can't ever not wear it now.
Speaker 1: I mean it's just elevating a plain black outfit. You know,
Speaker 1: it's so nice.
Speaker 3: Thank you for like I love that we just opened
Speaker 3: this conversation commenting on my style is there. It is
Speaker 3: so nice to meet you.
Speaker 1: It's so nice to me too. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: Well, thanks for coming on my podcast. Yeah, this is
Speaker 3: a really important topic, toxic productivity. How do you define
Speaker 3: toxic productivity?
Speaker 1: The way I envision toxic productivity is that the pursuit
Speaker 1: for productivity takes over your entire life. So the way
Speaker 1: I kind of talk about it or think about it
Speaker 1: is three things need to happen for you to kind
Speaker 1: of get caught in the storm of toxic productivity. So
Speaker 1: one is that you are extremely outcome driven and all
Speaker 1: of your life is structured around your outcomes. Two is
Speaker 1: the pursuit of those outcomes our priority, So your wellness,
Speaker 1: your relationship, your physical health, that all is secondary to
Speaker 1: your outcome. And the third is how good you feel
Speaker 1: about yourself is connected to the outcome. So when these
Speaker 1: three things start happening, yeah, yeah, then you're just kind
Speaker 1: of in this. I call it a paradox because it's
Speaker 1: like self fulfilling in some ways and kind of like
Speaker 1: a catch twenty two. But you could call it a
Speaker 1: storm like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does feel like, yeah, a lot of people
Speaker 3: with low feelings of self worth. Do they tend Can
Speaker 3: you find them really increasing their toxic productivity as a
Speaker 3: way to like fill that hole in themselves.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. That's one of the central arguments I'm making is
Speaker 1: is that we are utilizing productivity as a coping tool
Speaker 1: to feel good about ourselves and feeling good about yourself
Speaker 1: for the basic human need is the need for belonging
Speaker 1: and acceptance. So trying to do things, collect achievements, collect
Speaker 1: goal stars so that you feel like you're you know,
Speaker 1: you fit in like you and I can sit here
Speaker 1: and I can feel good about myself because I just
Speaker 1: did X, Y Z, and so it definitely feels good
Speaker 1: in the moment, So there's no denying that. But it's
Speaker 1: not long term, and it's not sustainable.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely sustainable. Yeah, or also wouldn't be called toxic.
Speaker 3: So what are the values that drive healthy productivity? Let's
Speaker 3: say about healthy productivity.
Speaker 1: VERSU Yeah, you know, gosh. So one of the things
Speaker 1: I want to say is I don't want healthy productivity
Speaker 1: to become yet another achievement marker that we have to
Speaker 1: work towards, because the way we kind of pursue toxic
Speaker 1: productivity is that the outcome doesn't matter. It's how you're
Speaker 1: getting there that becomes unhealthy. So you might want healthy productivity,
Speaker 1: but the method of getting there, if it's still imbalanced
Speaker 1: and unhealthy, it's not going to be healthy. So that's
Speaker 1: just something I want to say, is you know, healthy
Speaker 1: productivity shouldn't just become another thing you compare yourself to
Speaker 1: with others. Yeah I love that, yeah exactly, or like,
Speaker 1: oh they're healthier than me. I have to change this,
Speaker 1: and I'm not good enough and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: But the values that I think drive sustainable productivity that
Speaker 1: you can maintain over a lifetime. I think the first
Speaker 1: is an intentionality. So why you pursue what you pursue,
Speaker 1: what does it actually bring you? Being aware of those
Speaker 1: things is really important. Understanding the roots of your productivity
Speaker 1: is really important. So is your productivity coming from a
Speaker 1: desire to mask shame or is it coming from a
Speaker 1: desire to genuinely learn about the world?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: So your intention and the root matters. That's what defines
Speaker 1: I think the difference a little bit and healthy productivity,
Speaker 1: I think to me is a different definition. It includes rest,
Speaker 1: it includes stepping away, It includes boundaries, like, it includes
Speaker 1: all of these things. When we are in toxic productivity,
Speaker 1: we are trying to earn rest, but healthy productivity has
Speaker 1: rest baked into the process itself. And finally it's more
Speaker 1: process oriented than outcome or progress oriented.
Speaker 3: Can toxic productivity still be productive?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah. Like I heard an interview with Elon Musk once, right,
Speaker 3: like he's like, you know, he's so proud that he
Speaker 3: like never sleeps, and I mean he obviously has toxic productivity,
Speaker 3: but he's proud of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's that's the conundrum, right. I
Speaker 1: feel like that's this is one of the questions I
Speaker 1: get a lot in different ways, is that you know,
Speaker 1: why are you against productivity? Or you know, is your
Speaker 1: book exactly? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Or like as if I'm like evangelizing a life of
Speaker 1: idleness and laziness, and that in itself makes me see
Speaker 1: how people see the world in this like stark binary.
Speaker 1: If you're productive, you're productive. If you're not, then you're
Speaker 1: idle and lazy, right, And so we get so scared,
Speaker 1: and so that creates a lot of fear and shame.
Speaker 1: But another thing I'll say is productivity on its own
Speaker 1: is not a bad thing, right. Progress is important. That's
Speaker 1: how our culture moves, that's how we have innovation. You know,
Speaker 1: Elon Musk has done a million things, even though somewhat
Speaker 1: questionable at this point as a public figure, but he
Speaker 1: you know, he's changed a lot of things because of
Speaker 1: this drive for productivity. So I want people to understand
Speaker 1: that your seasons of very intense productivity have to be
Speaker 1: exceptions in your life. You know, and you have a
Speaker 1: very strong deadline. You might be working a lot, but
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be your whole life, and so welcome the
Speaker 1: seasons of rest and just ease and intention and then
Speaker 1: if things are happening, you can rise to the occasion, right,
Speaker 1: because if you're like that all the time, you are
Speaker 1: likely going to burn out.
Speaker 3: Yeah. When I was reading your book, I really I
Speaker 3: thought of this distinction that Robert Vallroan makes between harmonious
Speaker 3: and obsessive passion. I came across that distinction in the
Speaker 3: positive psychology literature.
Speaker 1: No, but tell me that sounds so interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems right up your alley. Yeah. So, harmonious
Speaker 3: passion is you have a passion for something, but it's
Speaker 3: well integrated into your identity, and it's also harmonious with
Speaker 3: the rest of yourself. You don't feel like you like you.
Speaker 3: So we'll contrast that with obsessive passion, where with obsessive
Speaker 3: passion you are not able to disengage from something you know,
Speaker 3: like if your partner or something wants to have a
Speaker 3: date night or whatever, you say, no, I can't. I
Speaker 3: must work. Continue working like you still work even if
Speaker 3: it's not paying off dividends, and you're much more likely
Speaker 3: to burn out. Think about that. It was well when
Speaker 3: you just burn out, But harmonious passion is so much healthier,
Speaker 3: and it's been correlated with well being. And Robert Valern
Speaker 3: has done so much research to showing that that pathway
Speaker 3: is a much more sustainable root. So that that might
Speaker 3: be irrelevant.
Speaker 1: I love it because you're right, Like you know, when
Speaker 1: we are harmonious, if you will, you're integrated. Your sense
Speaker 1: of self is integrated. And integration requires awareness and intention
Speaker 1: and emotional regulation. And I think that emotional regulation is
Speaker 1: the key to being successful in any domain of your life.
Speaker 1: And I think in productivity literature we don't talk about
Speaker 1: that enough.
Speaker 3: Is that really to resiliency?
Speaker 1: It does, but it's not only resiliency, right, So, like,
Speaker 1: of course, if you can regulate your emotions, you can
Speaker 1: have a lot of emotional resilience, but you're also less reactive.
Speaker 1: You're also a better decision maker, right, And so I
Speaker 1: mean resiliency, like everybody defines it a little differently, right, So, yes,
Speaker 1: I think it's a part of resiliency, but it's not
Speaker 1: the only thing that's.
Speaker 3: Part of the umbrella. Yeah, yeah, So why do you
Speaker 3: write this book like this? A step back a second.
Speaker 3: You're a clinical psychologist, is that right?
Speaker 1: I'm a psychotherapist, Hello, yeah, psychotherapist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great. What is your specialization within that field?
Speaker 1: So I work with adults, and I whenever I am
Speaker 1: in private practice, i'm working with people who are moving
Speaker 1: through life transitions, because life transitions can be very stressful
Speaker 1: and like there's a lot of identity shifts happening, and
Speaker 1: I like to help people kind of emerge into like
Speaker 1: a new chapter of their life. And my primary work
Speaker 1: is in digital health, so I do clinical strategy and
Speaker 1: operations at health tech startups for mental health. But the
Speaker 1: book happened because I do a lot of things, and
Speaker 1: I grew up thinking that that was the only way
Speaker 1: to live and if you were not stressed out and
Speaker 1: overwhelmed and frazzled, then you were not ambitious that you
Speaker 1: didn't want to change the world. And so my twenties
Speaker 1: was predominantly about like doing the most at all times forever.
Speaker 1: And in my early thirties I did start kind of
Speaker 1: like feeling the burden of that. You know, ultimately, when
Speaker 1: your life is off balance and you're living in an
Speaker 1: unhealthy way, it will start to show, and if you
Speaker 1: have a little bit of self awareness, you will stop
Speaker 1: to think about it. So, yeah, I was just starting
Speaker 1: to feel very like disconnected. And because I'm a therapist,
Speaker 1: my first question to myself was am I depressed? So
Speaker 1: did the PHQ and which is an assessment for depression,
Speaker 1: and I didn't really meet the criteria, but I felt
Speaker 1: very disconnected from my life. So I just started doing
Speaker 1: some research to find answers on motivations, social development, learning,
Speaker 1: human behavior, that kind of stuff. And then these themes
Speaker 1: just started emerging where I could see how much I
Speaker 1: was putting into my outcomes. And on the outside, if
Speaker 1: you had met me, you would have been like, oh,
Speaker 1: my gosh, your life is great, But on the inside
Speaker 1: I was not happy. Nothing was good enough. I hadn't
Speaker 1: done enough, like so much to accomplish like blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: So it came from that were you now that I
Speaker 1: am in a season. The thing is, some of these
Speaker 1: things are so deeply embedded in our worldview that when
Speaker 1: your resilience is low, coming back to resilience, when you
Speaker 1: were stressed out, your most conditioned habits come to the surface. Right.
Speaker 1: So this unlearning journey that I was on and changing
Speaker 1: my habits and my worldview, I think has given me
Speaker 1: a new perspective on how to deal with stressful times
Speaker 1: in my life. But inevitably it does come up. You know,
Speaker 1: I have this book coming out, and so my old
Speaker 1: habits of relating to outcome and achievement and being the
Speaker 1: good girl making people proud, like, all of that is
Speaker 1: coming up for me for sure. And I just I
Speaker 1: have more coping now than before.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Good. Yeah, And you also have a big audience
Speaker 3: that's already you know there to get your book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a big plus to start with, right, So
Speaker 3: what are the dangers of operating in autopilot mode?
Speaker 1: My gosh, Like that's kind of like where I was before.
Speaker 1: But I think one of the biggest, or i should
Speaker 1: say one of the saddest things about living on autopilot
Speaker 1: is you're not living in the present. You're not actually
Speaker 1: engaged in the relationships that you have, You're not engaged
Speaker 1: in the life that you're living. You feel like you
Speaker 1: have no choice or agency anymore. And that is like
Speaker 1: incredibly disheartening to the human spirit. And living on autopilot
Speaker 1: just feels like going through the motions. I described it
Speaker 1: as kind of like being underwater and looking up, so
Speaker 1: everything feels distorted and blurry. Some people have described it
Speaker 1: as kind of just like like being like a zombie,
Speaker 1: just kind of like floating through life. And it's not depression.
Speaker 1: I think it can be a precursor to depression, but
Speaker 1: depression is more complicated, even though some of the things
Speaker 1: are similar. But the dangers of living on an autopilot
Speaker 1: are you start to not live your own life and
Speaker 1: you're living somebody else's life, what your parents wanted, what
Speaker 1: your partner wants from you, what your friends expect from you.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like just a very empty feeling.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting because like to be an Instagram influencer,
Speaker 3: you're kind of like having to constantly figure out what
Speaker 3: people want and giving it to them. Does that ever
Speaker 3: get like resentful? Like I don't know, I've never asked
Speaker 3: an influencer that before, but I never get a state
Speaker 3: where it's like, do you always see me for what
Speaker 3: I provide for you on Instagram? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: So I think I definitely feel a little bit of
Speaker 1: resentment towards the changing platforms. What's happening, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: the algorithms change, the way they build things, change, the
Speaker 1: way they prioritize metrics change, and there's never really like
Speaker 1: an announcement about it. It's usually retro like they'll they'll
Speaker 1: roll out the change and then they'll kind of announce it.
Speaker 1: So I have a bigger like struggle with the changing
Speaker 1: platforms as far as like people messaging me and asking
Speaker 1: me about things or leaving it in the comment send things.
Speaker 1: I don't take offense to that because that is why
Speaker 1: I'm there, That's my job. It's like if I went
Speaker 1: to the er and the er doctor and I was respectful,
Speaker 1: it was kind about it, but the er doctor was like,
Speaker 1: why are sick people coming here?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Right, Like that's this is the task that I've taken
Speaker 1: is to educate people, and I want to and a
Speaker 1: lot of my content does come from what people say.
Speaker 3: That's good, yeah, but you still must have your moments
Speaker 3: for like you're having a day where like everyone's coming
Speaker 3: at you with something and you're just you need to
Speaker 3: emotionally regulate that. Well.
Speaker 1: I definitely have moments when people are mean.
Speaker 3: Really, people are mean to you, people.
Speaker 1: Are mean to me, or they're kind of mean about
Speaker 1: the content itself. Sometimes people can be very disparaging about
Speaker 1: mental health struggles because they have their own stigmas or
Speaker 1: they're they're projecting their own understanding of mental health, and
Speaker 1: they can be very belittling to symptomology or be me
Speaker 1: into other people in the comments who are saying things
Speaker 1: like oh my gosh, this happened to me or whatever.
Speaker 1: I think that, Yeah, that annoys me. I think when
Speaker 1: people make unnecessary intersections, like I might make a content,
Speaker 1: like a piece of content on something to do with
Speaker 1: like mental health, and someone's going to come in and
Speaker 1: be like this is feminist propaganda, Like that kind of
Speaker 1: annoys me, where I'm like, obviously you don't understand this,
Speaker 1: but no, if someone as long as people are kind,
Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, I get some of this too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people are ridiculous though.
Speaker 3: On Instagram people are ridiculous.
Speaker 1: TikTok is worse.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was only on TikTok to dance hip hop.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I do. Like that's the videos.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 3: That's it. That's it.
Speaker 1: You should use it for joy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's the reason why how I use it. Wait,
Speaker 3: you so, look, we have a lot of negative beliefs
Speaker 3: in our heads. You talk in your book about how
Speaker 3: you can challenge to just not trust them as because
Speaker 3: a lot of us just assume these things are real
Speaker 3: or true, right, So how can you challenge that?
Speaker 1: Gosh, you know, sometimes when I say this, people get
Speaker 1: very I get like varied reactions to this. Because the
Speaker 1: whole point is to trust yourself, right, That's the core
Speaker 1: of self confidence or being self assured. But I think
Speaker 1: the practice I want people to actually build, and I
Speaker 1: hope this comes through, is to learn to question your
Speaker 1: belief systems so you don't have to automatically mistrust yourself.
Speaker 1: I don't want people to be like, oh, I'm feeling
Speaker 1: X thing, I don't trust myself. This is not real.
Speaker 1: But I want people to get into the practice of
Speaker 1: regularly checking in with themselves and asking themselves if the
Speaker 1: thing they believe is valid, and it is, it's still
Speaker 1: a to their life. Maybe it was helpful before and
Speaker 1: it no longer is. And that requires a lot of
Speaker 1: meta awareness. You have to kind of go above your thoughts.
Speaker 1: And it sounds abstract, but that's what meditation is, right,
Speaker 1: So I think meditation is a good way or mindfulness.
Speaker 1: If meditation is not for you, it's a really good
Speaker 1: way to build that practice of like awareness, just like
Speaker 1: your physical body, but your mental space, like what do
Speaker 1: I think about? Where do my thoughts naturally flow to
Speaker 1: and why? Like for me, for example, I constantly have
Speaker 1: to question myself as to why certain outcomes are important
Speaker 1: for me, Like what am I seeking? Where is that
Speaker 1: missing in my life? What's the worst that will happen
Speaker 1: if I don't get it? That's work I'm doing right now?
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes the worst does happen, though, but then you
Speaker 3: just have then it's usually not as bad.
Speaker 1: It's not as bad you think it's going to be exactly,
Speaker 1: or you prepare for it too.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: The part of questioning is preparing for it. As well,
Speaker 1: so you're not taking off guard.
Speaker 3: That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, how does toxic
Speaker 3: productivity show up in other guises, like in other forms
Speaker 3: that maybe it's not so obvious that it's toxic productivity.
Speaker 1: In a lot of ways. So I think that was
Speaker 1: one of the bigger challenges that I was trying to
Speaker 1: take on when I first started the research. Is a
Speaker 1: lot of the research is rooted in workplace culture, but
Speaker 1: my stuff was coming from other places, right, It was
Speaker 1: coming from needing to have my life look a certain way.
Speaker 1: Now that I moved to New York and I was
Speaker 1: newly married, and la la la, and so I did
Speaker 1: start finding very new research on the fact that we
Speaker 1: can bring this mindset to other domains of our life.
Speaker 1: So the biggest one I see nowadays is self care.
Speaker 1: You know, before it was like, okay, like I'm going
Speaker 1: to be toxically productive and this is the salary, this
Speaker 1: is the title. You know, I want to make its
Speaker 1: X thing in two years and lots of pressure there.
Speaker 1: People have taken that same mindset to self care and
Speaker 1: it's a yardstick. It's something they compare themselves to with
Speaker 1: other people. There's a lot of shame involved if you're
Speaker 1: not doing it the right way. And so toxic productivity
Speaker 1: has a term productivity productivity in it, which throws people off.
Speaker 1: But it's a mindset. You can bring it to your
Speaker 1: romantic relationships. You can make and you know, it's one
Speaker 1: of the client vignettes in there is about that. And
Speaker 1: I put that in very intentionally because I work with
Speaker 1: a lot of millennials and gen z and I see this.
Speaker 1: You know, it's I have to date this type of person,
Speaker 1: I have to do these many things, I have to
Speaker 1: be married by this time and blah blah blah, blah blah.
Speaker 1: And they're miserable because it's like, do you even want
Speaker 1: that yourself?
Speaker 3: That's such a good Like you nailed it. Especially in
Speaker 3: like relationships, we can kind of treat it as though
Speaker 3: it's like a got to be productive, you know, growing
Speaker 3: we have this, you know, and it's like you don't
Speaker 3: let things just happen as they happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I see this in this like emotionally aware
Speaker 1: dating nowadays. I don't know how many it's a whole
Speaker 1: thing now where people like really want to go on
Speaker 1: their first dates and just have these like very deep
Speaker 1: conversations about their childhood traumas and like where they fit
Speaker 1: in their families, and like people really are bringing their
Speaker 1: emotional selves. But I find that it's kind of like
Speaker 1: borderline over sharing. Yeah, like manufactured vulnerability. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that's what it is.
Speaker 3: That's totally manufactured vulnerability is rampant. And I would also
Speaker 3: say forced vulnerability is rampant. Like you ever go to
Speaker 3: one of these like parties, you know, dinner parties, and
Speaker 3: then like they like force you to go around the
Speaker 3: table and just say like really personal stuff, like I
Speaker 3: don't know you all. Can I get to know you
Speaker 3: a little bit exactly basic level before I tell you
Speaker 3: about my traumas?
Speaker 1: Yes, And people have confused that with like authenticity, but
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a different rent that I could
Speaker 1: go on.
Speaker 3: To go on it if you want to, because I
Speaker 3: agree with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Like it's this idea that if you don't
Speaker 1: show up as your full self, then you're not being authentic.
Speaker 1: And so we've lost discernment, we've lost privacy, and we've
Speaker 1: lost an organic unfolding, right, Like relationships need to unfold organically,
Speaker 1: and when the time feels appropriate, you share certain things
Speaker 1: and now you have a lot of card games that
Speaker 1: you can just pull out, and I actually own a
Speaker 1: lot of them, so this is not a knock on that,
Speaker 1: but there's a whole industry behind this. Yeah, and Bumble
Speaker 1: has the little prompts now that are very sometimes very
Speaker 1: personal questions. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's like TikTok vulnerability versus like real genuine vulnerability.
Speaker 3: Like that's a phrase my friend Mark Manson's uses, TikTok
Speaker 3: Warner will I love it? Yeah? Yeah. How can we
Speaker 3: confuse being busy with toxic productivity? They seem related constructs?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so being busy falls under toxic productivity, but being
Speaker 1: busy is not productive. So that's kind of like the.
Speaker 3: Dystinction I make just simply being busy is not necessarily
Speaker 3: productive exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because being busy is sometimes doing a lot of
Speaker 1: small things that don't actually roll up to a bigger
Speaker 1: umbrella outcome, right, And that's why busy work is called
Speaker 1: busy work. It's just like little things you're doing. And
Speaker 1: what happens is when we're busy, we are allocating the
Speaker 1: same weight of importance and urgency to everything across the board.
Speaker 1: But maybe you need my one hundred percent right now
Speaker 1: because you've invited me here, but maybe a stranger on
Speaker 1: the street doesn't need one hundred percent of me, right,
Speaker 1: So it's like Busy doesn't have that distinction. You're just
Speaker 1: giving everything at all times, whereas productive is really weighing
Speaker 1: the importance, the urgency. Do I have to do this?
Speaker 1: Do I not have to do this? Can I delegate this?
Speaker 1: Can I just take it off? Busy doesn't do those questioning,
Speaker 1: and so I feel like that's the biggest thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good distinction.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, your book is chock full of exercises and things
Speaker 3: and to help people have healthier habits of mind. Can
Speaker 3: you share some of it, you know, obviously leaving others
Speaker 3: for them to actually buy the book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll share one that I've been trying to do
Speaker 1: for the last six weeks. So I call it the
Speaker 1: Chanel rule, which is fully something I made up, But
Speaker 1: Coco Chanel, the designer, is very famously thought to have
Speaker 1: said that when you accessorize right before you leave the house,
Speaker 1: take off one thing, and that will always bring balance,
Speaker 1: because when we're in the moment, we will put too
Speaker 1: much on right because we're not looking at ourselves holistically.
Speaker 1: But the last time you look in the mirror before
Speaker 1: going out, you're actually just looking at your whole self.
Speaker 1: So I try to apply that to my calendar. So
Speaker 1: I'm intentionally taking off one thing preemptively. Every week I
Speaker 1: under commit, I commit to one last thing. I try
Speaker 1: to keep one weekend day free of commitments.
Speaker 3: This is after you've already committed to something, you then
Speaker 3: take it away.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm not. I'm not advocating for that. I
Speaker 1: think it's before so preemptively.
Speaker 3: Oh I see, I think yeah. So if an invitation
Speaker 3: comes in you're like, oh, this is going to be
Speaker 3: my one yes week, then I say, ell, hell's.
Speaker 1: No exactly, Or you look at your whole calendar and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh wow, okay, Like I'm already doing two
Speaker 1: things next week, I'm not going to do this third thing.
Speaker 3: I love this, I'm going to start doing that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I honestly like really has helped me stay grounded, which
Speaker 1: I need do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm also going to I also decided, like I'm
Speaker 3: not going to check my email first thing in the morning,
Speaker 3: Like why do I do that?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: Why why do I do that myself?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Your curiosity?
Speaker 3: Yeah, just wake up and like enjoy my morning coffee.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's something I started doing two years ago
Speaker 1: where I intentionally do nothing when I eat breakfast and
Speaker 1: drink coffee and it's just ten minutes, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: doing like a journaling exercise and yoga for four hours before.
Speaker 1: If you can do that, that's great, but I cannot
Speaker 1: do that. So I have a fifteen minute like quiet
Speaker 1: window and that's it. That's all I need to feel stable.
Speaker 1: And being somebody who creates digital content, you can also
Speaker 1: like utilize these tech tools to your advantage. So you know,
Speaker 1: the algorithm wants you to like post let's say early
Speaker 1: in the morning. That's high engagement. People are, you know,
Speaker 1: using their phones and stuff. So I just auto schedule it,
Speaker 1: like I'm not opening the app because trying to open
Speaker 1: a social media app or your email or the news,
Speaker 1: these three things are going to spike up your like adrenaline, cortisol.
Speaker 1: You're you're like, damn, like horrible things are happening. Like
Speaker 1: it just like just destabilizes you for the day.
Speaker 3: Oh ain't that the truth? Do you have a whole team?
Speaker 1: No, Like who helps you with your Instagram? I do
Speaker 1: not have a team. I am a one person machine. What, Yes,
Speaker 1: how do.
Speaker 3: You figure out how to use all the videos?
Speaker 1: So I actually really enjoyed the challenge of learning something new,
Speaker 1: and I think that is also a really great antidote
Speaker 1: to toxic productivity because it forces you to slow down,
Speaker 1: you know, the process of learning something new and you
Speaker 1: don't have to master it, but just learning it helps
Speaker 1: you be more in the day to day process. And
Speaker 1: so it just forces you to slow down a little bit.
Speaker 1: And it also keeps your brain very healthy, Like just
Speaker 1: trying to do something new keeps your neural pathways proved
Speaker 1: well and like it's very healthy. But I am trying
Speaker 1: to expec and now I'm trying to bring on people
Speaker 1: who can support some administrative stuff for me in partnerships. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but so far it's just been me.
Speaker 3: Hold on, I want my neurotransmitters to be pruned.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, you cannot do puzzles. Do something new every day?
Speaker 1: That sentence, Yeah, it's a peak you know therapy nerd.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. What is the sand
Speaker 3: castle lesson?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, so the sand castle lesson is out of
Speaker 1: like a personal anecdote. My partner and I took an
Speaker 1: unplugged holiday and I could not mentally unplug like he
Speaker 1: was just chilling. He was sleeping on the bee Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was sleeping on the beach. He had no concerns
Speaker 1: about anything. But I was obsessed with optimizing in my head,
Speaker 1: the mental calculations of it. And he eventually woke up
Speaker 1: and just started making a sand castle down the beach
Speaker 1: while I was beating myself up mentally for not writing
Speaker 1: like profound statements on the beach and I was like
Speaker 1: really judging myself that I didn't use this time, and
Speaker 1: Hemingway wrote in Spain, like you should be writing here
Speaker 1: just like unreasonable comparisons. I am not close. Yeah exactly,
Speaker 1: And he called me to do like make a sand castle,
Speaker 1: and in the process I realized I had never done this.
Speaker 1: And we ended up doing it for a couple of
Speaker 1: hours and it was the most fun I'd had and
Speaker 1: it helped me realize that I also deserve this.
Speaker 3: Why why do you deserve it?
Speaker 1: I think human beings inherently deserve to be joyful, that's
Speaker 1: the answer. Inherently inherently.
Speaker 3: It's not like you, you deserve it because yes on
Speaker 3: Instagram exactly, Oh god, no, my gosh. I just wanted
Speaker 3: to clarify yea, yeah, yeah, yeah, I worked hard, so
Speaker 3: I deserve it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's my biggest beef with like productivity culture is
Speaker 1: that we think we deserve rest, we have to earn it,
Speaker 1: And it's kind of socialized in a very powerful way
Speaker 1: right from the beginning, at least for me, Like I
Speaker 1: had to finish everything before I could go play. Like
Speaker 1: when I was younger, I had to finish everything before
Speaker 1: I could read for fun. So all the things that
Speaker 1: gave me inher and joy were things I had to earn,
Speaker 1: and that just became the way I look at life.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, but but it sounds like your husband offers
Speaker 3: a grounding there for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he reminds you that he sounds chilli.
Speaker 1: He's super chill. He's like a golden retriever. His job
Speaker 1: is definitely very stressful. But because he also does comedy. Yeah, finance.
Speaker 3: For some reason, I see you with a finance bro. Why.
Speaker 3: I don't know why I do.
Speaker 1: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's like in my head, I was like,
Speaker 3: I bet she's dating a fight.
Speaker 1: I sure am. But what is a little unique about him,
Speaker 1: I'll say, is he is also a stand up comic
Speaker 1: so he brings a different energy.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you should come to a show in New York,
Speaker 1: he invite me.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I do some stand up comic comedy stuff in
Speaker 3: Santa Monica County with an a name.
Speaker 1: Oh that's cool. Yeah, it is a very cathartic experience,
Speaker 1: he says. It looks terrifying to me, like I could
Speaker 1: sit and do a Ted talk, but I could not
Speaker 1: do a stand up bit. No way, Oh boy, yeah,
Speaker 1: fair enough Terror.
Speaker 3: Well I'm shocked you haven't done a Ted talk yet
Speaker 3: with this book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just manifest that into the universe space.
Speaker 3: Yes, manifest absolutely waited talk to We'll do it together.
Speaker 3: You're so sweet. That was like so kind of Okay,
Speaker 3: what is our you? You've been talking a lot about
Speaker 3: shame throughout this whole Episode's like a thread, So what
Speaker 3: is our shame narrative? Like, can you just unpack it
Speaker 3: for me a little bit like more and how can
Speaker 3: we like go into a more curiosity.
Speaker 1: So shame is honestly one of the most powerful motivators
Speaker 1: of human behavior. We know this in a horrible way.
Speaker 1: It's powerful, But Nike not good for you kind of like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you watch Star Wars. But yeah,
Speaker 1: like the dark Side, powerful but negative outcomes. And we
Speaker 1: use shame a lot with children to get them in
Speaker 1: line and do what parents want them to do, and
Speaker 1: they do it because shame gives immediate, immediate like results.
Speaker 1: And so while shame can get you started into productivity,
Speaker 1: it cannot maintain healthy productivity. And shame, I think shows
Speaker 1: up in different ways for different people. I think if
Speaker 1: you're raised very religiously, shame will show up in this
Speaker 1: Like you know, idleness is an immoral act type of thing.
Speaker 1: If you are raised as an overachiever, the shame of
Speaker 1: not being good enough is going to drive you because
Speaker 1: you're not like you're parents, You're not like your siblings.
Speaker 1: If you grow up in poverty, unfortunately, that creates a
Speaker 1: lot of internalized shame because the world is telling you
Speaker 1: that you don't deserve things. So your question was about
Speaker 1: how to transform it into curiosity. And the first thing
Speaker 1: we need to do is we need to recognize what
Speaker 1: shame looks like for us. And I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what my shame looked like up until
Speaker 1: I was like in my early thirties, and I was
Speaker 1: already a practicing therapist. Right, So shame is very insiduous,
Speaker 1: Like it's very hidden. So a way to understand how
Speaker 1: shame shows up for you is to genuinely reflect on
Speaker 1: the patterns in your relationships. Just think back to your
Speaker 1: last three relationships and see if there's like a pattern.
Speaker 1: Did you feel the same way even though all the
Speaker 1: other partners were different. Did you end up behaving in
Speaker 1: the same way that caused a negative outcome even though
Speaker 1: the circumstances were different. Finding that pattern of how you
Speaker 1: show up can give you insight into the shame you're holding,
Speaker 1: and then, of course on dismantling shame is life's work,
Speaker 1: but learning how to regulate your emotions is a good
Speaker 1: way to start.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That's also a real theme that goes through all this.
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is my issue when I started doing
Speaker 1: this research, My issue was that nobody is talking about
Speaker 1: the impact emotions have on productivity. Everyone's like time management
Speaker 1: and calendar organization and chunk your time and Pomodoro's and
Speaker 1: like here's a hack like the two minute rule, and
Speaker 1: I love all that stuff, but it's behavioral. What's going
Speaker 1: on underneath that.
Speaker 3: That's a great point. Yeah, Okay, so what are some
Speaker 3: care activities to help us with the rejuvenation. I think
Speaker 3: like all of us kind of are suffering from that
Speaker 3: right now. Like I don't think anyone's feeling rejuvenated right
Speaker 3: now in this society.
Speaker 1: No election's over, gosh, I mean there's the elections, not
Speaker 1: even like it's like a few weeks. Yeah, like it's
Speaker 1: just like six five weeks I think, or four weeks.
Speaker 3: How do we get rejuvenated?
Speaker 1: Oh well, I mean, honestly, regulate your news consumption. That's
Speaker 1: the biggest thing. And that's like less rejuvenation and more boundaries,
Speaker 1: like emotional boundaries. And I'm not saying be ignorant. I'm saying,
Speaker 1: have a very structured schedule to when you consume news
Speaker 1: so that your mind and body are ready for it.
Speaker 1: Take off the notifications. You're not going to change the
Speaker 1: world by knowing something immediately. But read the news in
Speaker 1: the morning, like in the mid morning and late afternoon
Speaker 1: or early evening, like stay connected, stay engaged. Read but
Speaker 1: definitely have boundaries. But rejuvenation, I think is really just
Speaker 1: about doing something for the sake of doing it, so
Speaker 1: you're not doing something to finish an outcome. And I
Speaker 1: think the biggest example of this is reading. I hate
Speaker 1: reading challenges. I hate people like releasing their like twelve
Speaker 1: books to read this year, like the Obama list that
Speaker 1: comes out, you know, yeah, because it creates this pressure
Speaker 1: that I have to read to consume and be productive.
Speaker 1: Even if you're reading fiction. Let's just read for the
Speaker 1: joy of reading. Let's not race through books. Let's not
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts at one point five or two speed.
Speaker 1: Let's just enjoy something because we're doing it, you know, gardening,
Speaker 1: making puzzles, crafts, slow cooking, all of these very like
Speaker 1: traditional activities. I think they have a lot of beauty
Speaker 1: in just being present and doing them.
Speaker 3: Well, that's kind of like the point of your book
Speaker 3: is that like toxic productivity in a way blinds us
Speaker 3: to the meaning around us and the beauty and that
Speaker 3: inherently inherently exists in us, yes, and in others. And
Speaker 3: I feel like that's like a general theme of all this. Yeah, So,
Speaker 3: what's your overarching piece of advice for people who are
Speaker 3: stuck in the toxic productivity trap? I'll call it.
Speaker 1: Gosh. People are at different places of the journey, right,
Speaker 1: but my overarching advice to anyone is whether you even
Speaker 1: believe you're in toxic productivey or not. Maybe you're like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what this girl is talking about. I'm
Speaker 1: so happy in my life because I do all the things.
Speaker 1: Even if you're that person, I just want you to
Speaker 1: take out thirty minutes over a weekend and really go
Speaker 1: through some journal prompts like ask yourself, why do I
Speaker 1: do the things that I do? Do they genuinely make
Speaker 1: me happy? Or do they make other people happy? So
Speaker 1: it makes me happy? Right? This like transitive property of happiness?
Speaker 1: And do I have to do them? Like? Just ask
Speaker 1: yourself that, and that's going to give you some insight
Speaker 1: because if you especially live in North America, I think
Speaker 1: I would be hard pressed to find and even a
Speaker 1: singular person who does not struggle with this in some way. So,
Speaker 1: you know, late stage capitalism, the way our work culture is,
Speaker 1: social media, the news technology, all of that has created
Speaker 1: this environment. I think I would be hard pressed to
Speaker 1: find anybody who doesn't struggle with something.
Speaker 3: I was going to say, I don't know anyone that
Speaker 3: when you said someone this is just perfectly happy with Yeah, wow,
Speaker 3: I mean so that really shows how resonant a lot
Speaker 3: of people are going to be for this book. Anything
Speaker 3: else you want readers to take away.
Speaker 1: Yes. The only thing I'll say is if you are
Speaker 1: reading the book, you don't have to read it cover
Speaker 1: to cover in one sitting. This is a book you
Speaker 1: can take your time with because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: prompts in there. There's a lot of exploration of your
Speaker 1: childhood like things like that. Just thinking about your life
Speaker 1: and the choices you make can be very difficult. So
Speaker 1: this is not a book that I'm expecting anyone to
Speaker 1: be like, damn, I finished it in two weeks.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Just take your time with it.
Speaker 3: And if you've reflected that you've made some pretty bad
Speaker 3: choices in your life, don't have shame.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just become passionate because honestly, a lot
Speaker 1: of times we're just doing stuff because we've been trained
Speaker 1: to do it, you know, and we are young, so
Speaker 1: we don't have the capacity to think through things, or
Speaker 1: we're older and we have a lot of pressure from
Speaker 1: our relationships and obligations. So it's really just about like, hey,
Speaker 1: what can I change right now? Oh it's not working?
Speaker 3: Well? Sounds delightful. Thank you so much for being on
Speaker 3: my podcast. I wish all the best of luck with
Speaker 3: this book. Thank you for having me, My pleasure,