1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:24,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin from the second I opened my eyes. Each morning, 2 00:00:24,876 --> 00:00:28,436 Speaker 1: I'm locked in a battle with a persistent and persuasive adversary, 3 00:00:28,836 --> 00:00:31,916 Speaker 1: someone who seems dead set on preventing me from practicing 4 00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:34,436 Speaker 1: all of the happiness techniques I teach you about in 5 00:00:34,436 --> 00:00:36,996 Speaker 1: this podcast. I want to plan my day so I 6 00:00:37,036 --> 00:00:39,756 Speaker 1: don't feel time pressured, and I want to meditate an 7 00:00:39,756 --> 00:00:42,316 Speaker 1: exercise every morning, and I want to do random acts 8 00:00:42,316 --> 00:00:45,236 Speaker 1: of kindness throughout the day. But my nemesis is right 9 00:00:45,276 --> 00:00:48,676 Speaker 1: there encouraging me to do the exact opposite, arguing that 10 00:00:48,716 --> 00:00:51,076 Speaker 1: I should sleep in, or I should buy something nice 11 00:00:51,116 --> 00:00:53,956 Speaker 1: for myself, or I should add yet one more event 12 00:00:53,956 --> 00:00:56,676 Speaker 1: to my already packed schedule just to prove to people 13 00:00:56,716 --> 00:01:00,356 Speaker 1: that I'm a hard worker. Of course, the person sabotaging 14 00:01:00,436 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 1: me is me, or maybe more accurately, a few rogue 15 00:01:04,396 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 1: parts of me, once that I really want to control better. 16 00:01:07,316 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 1: And I bet I'm not alone. The tempt patients that 17 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:11,916 Speaker 1: divert us from doing things that will make us happy 18 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:16,036 Speaker 1: are everywhere, and they're available twenty four seven. But the 19 00:01:16,076 --> 00:01:18,796 Speaker 1: people who first thought deeply about the internal battles we 20 00:01:18,836 --> 00:01:23,156 Speaker 1: all face lived centuries before smartphones, movie streaming services, and 21 00:01:23,276 --> 00:01:26,916 Speaker 1: calendar alerts the ancient Greeks, and one think are In particular, 22 00:01:26,996 --> 00:01:30,196 Speaker 1: Plato came up with some profoundly important insights about our 23 00:01:30,236 --> 00:01:34,436 Speaker 1: divided selves more than two thousand years ago. As in 24 00:01:34,476 --> 00:01:37,036 Speaker 1: other episodes of this the mini season of the Happiness Lab, 25 00:01:37,436 --> 00:01:39,716 Speaker 1: I want to explore some of the well being concepts 26 00:01:39,756 --> 00:01:43,036 Speaker 1: that the ancient philosophies and great religions got right, old 27 00:01:43,036 --> 00:01:45,436 Speaker 1: school tips that are borne out by the science, and 28 00:01:45,596 --> 00:01:48,156 Speaker 1: ones that have personally helped me in my own quest 29 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:51,116 Speaker 1: to be happier. So welcome to Happiness Lessons of the 30 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:58,756 Speaker 1: Ancients with me, Doctor Laurie Santos. One of the things 31 00:01:58,756 --> 00:02:01,476 Speaker 1: I've realized is that I am inevitably going to be 32 00:02:01,596 --> 00:02:04,756 Speaker 1: tempted if I work with my phone next to me, 33 00:02:05,076 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 1: I'll be getting texts. This is my friend and Yale 34 00:02:07,596 --> 00:02:10,356 Speaker 1: colleague to Mark Kendler. When I sit down at my 35 00:02:10,476 --> 00:02:13,636 Speaker 1: desk to write, I actually turn off the Wi Fi 36 00:02:13,996 --> 00:02:17,796 Speaker 1: receiver on my computer so that I won't even be 37 00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:20,956 Speaker 1: tempted to look at the other things while I'm getting 38 00:02:20,996 --> 00:02:23,356 Speaker 1: the work done. Tomorrow and I often trade notes about 39 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:26,556 Speaker 1: how to stay happy and productive as busy academics, But 40 00:02:26,636 --> 00:02:30,436 Speaker 1: Tomorrow brings something very special to these conversations. She teaches 41 00:02:30,436 --> 00:02:32,556 Speaker 1: a class at Yale called Philosophy and the Science of 42 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:36,356 Speaker 1: Human Nature, and Plato's ideas are central to her curriculum. 43 00:02:37,076 --> 00:02:39,436 Speaker 1: So I asked tomorrow to give us Plato one oh one. 44 00:02:39,796 --> 00:02:45,116 Speaker 1: So Plato was one of the really cool ancient philosophers 45 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:49,756 Speaker 1: in Athens who gave rise to the Western philosophical tradition. 46 00:02:50,276 --> 00:02:55,956 Speaker 1: And he ran basically a university which was called the Academy, 47 00:02:56,196 --> 00:03:01,796 Speaker 1: where young men from Athenian families would come and engage 48 00:03:02,036 --> 00:03:08,516 Speaker 1: in unbelievably intellectually interesting conversations with one another and with Plato, 49 00:03:08,556 --> 00:03:12,956 Speaker 1: and with plato teacher Socrates about the deepest questions of 50 00:03:12,996 --> 00:03:16,716 Speaker 1: the age. And one of the students at Plato's academy 51 00:03:17,196 --> 00:03:20,276 Speaker 1: was a guy named Aristotle. So this was like a 52 00:03:20,276 --> 00:03:22,116 Speaker 1: pretty legit thing to do if you were like a 53 00:03:22,196 --> 00:03:25,836 Speaker 1: rich Athenian guy and wanted to get educated. It didn't 54 00:03:25,876 --> 00:03:29,556 Speaker 1: have the formal structure of degree granting. It wasn't that 55 00:03:29,596 --> 00:03:31,916 Speaker 1: you would go there for four years, but it was 56 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:35,836 Speaker 1: the place where people went if they wanted to understand 57 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:40,796 Speaker 1: fundamental ideas, if they wanted to think about literature or philosophy, 58 00:03:41,156 --> 00:03:46,036 Speaker 1: or politics or mathematics. Those were the kinds of topics 59 00:03:46,076 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 1: that you could explore at Plato's academy, and Plato was 60 00:03:49,396 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 1: kind of the guy to learn from, in part because 61 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:54,556 Speaker 1: he thought so deeply about so many different topics. But 62 00:03:54,796 --> 00:03:56,836 Speaker 1: today we're going to kind of focus in on Plato's 63 00:03:56,876 --> 00:03:59,956 Speaker 1: ideas for happiness and how we can control this self, 64 00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:02,316 Speaker 1: which was something he thought about a lot, right, Yeah, 65 00:04:02,356 --> 00:04:05,076 Speaker 1: So one of the things that's really interesting about ancient 66 00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:09,516 Speaker 1: Greek philosophy is that they connected all sorts of topics 67 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:11,716 Speaker 1: that we think of as distinct from one another. So 68 00:04:11,756 --> 00:04:15,196 Speaker 1: the question of how can you be happy was a 69 00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:19,276 Speaker 1: fundamental question in ancient philosophy because they were thinking about 70 00:04:19,356 --> 00:04:23,476 Speaker 1: what's the appropriate relation between the individual and their society, 71 00:04:23,836 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: and what's the nature of beauty and what's the nature 72 00:04:26,596 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 1: of truth? And so Plato would be teaching all of 73 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:34,356 Speaker 1: those things, everything from mathematics to metaphysics to political theory. 74 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 1: But part of the reason for exploring that set of 75 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:41,876 Speaker 1: topics was so that you could understand how is it 76 00:04:41,916 --> 00:04:45,756 Speaker 1: possible for an individual human being to flourish, How can 77 00:04:45,796 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: they best align themselves so that they understand the nature 78 00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 1: of the world and are most receptive to the world's excellence. 79 00:04:54,756 --> 00:04:57,356 Speaker 1: And so Plato didn't just think about this or obviously 80 00:04:57,396 --> 00:04:59,996 Speaker 1: he was a writer who created lots of influential books 81 00:05:00,036 --> 00:05:02,236 Speaker 1: on this. So talk to me about the importance of 82 00:05:02,236 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 1: one of the books that we're going to dig into 83 00:05:03,516 --> 00:05:06,596 Speaker 1: a little bit today, which is The Republic. So Plato 84 00:05:06,676 --> 00:05:09,876 Speaker 1: wrote all his books in the form of of plays, 85 00:05:10,276 --> 00:05:14,876 Speaker 1: and they were plays where his teacher, Socrates was the 86 00:05:14,876 --> 00:05:19,156 Speaker 1: main character, and then various young men who were students 87 00:05:19,196 --> 00:05:24,156 Speaker 1: at the university were in conversation with Socrates about questions. 88 00:05:24,516 --> 00:05:27,836 Speaker 1: And so one of the most famous of the dialogues 89 00:05:27,996 --> 00:05:31,876 Speaker 1: or books that Plato wrote is a book called The Republic, 90 00:05:32,076 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 1: and it has ten chapters, and it's kind of a 91 00:05:35,556 --> 00:05:40,236 Speaker 1: theory of everything. It describes what's the fundamental nature of 92 00:05:40,276 --> 00:05:43,476 Speaker 1: the universe, how did it come into being? It talks 93 00:05:43,516 --> 00:05:48,796 Speaker 1: about how mathematics underpins all of physical reality. Then it 94 00:05:48,836 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 1: talks about physics, it talks about how we understand truth. 95 00:05:53,036 --> 00:05:56,316 Speaker 1: But it does all of that by telling the story 96 00:05:56,516 --> 00:06:00,636 Speaker 1: of what the ideal society would look like. What would 97 00:06:00,636 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 1: a society look like in which human beings are best 98 00:06:04,356 --> 00:06:08,276 Speaker 1: able to flourish. That's the question that Plato asks, and 99 00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 1: it turns out, in order to answer that, he has 100 00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:15,236 Speaker 1: to explore everything from mathematics to political theory, and in 101 00:06:15,276 --> 00:06:18,076 Speaker 1: those stories, Plato tells one of my favorite stories from 102 00:06:18,076 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 1: the ancient Greek times, which is the story of Leontius. 103 00:06:21,676 --> 00:06:23,476 Speaker 1: What was the story of Leontius and why was it 104 00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:26,276 Speaker 1: so important for thinking about human nature? So let me 105 00:06:26,316 --> 00:06:30,116 Speaker 1: just start by telling the story using Plato's words from 106 00:06:30,116 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 1: the Republican. Then I'll give you the moral of it. 107 00:06:32,676 --> 00:06:35,436 Speaker 1: So the story goes like this. Leontius was walking along 108 00:06:35,476 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 1: the north wall of the city. He saw some corpses 109 00:06:39,956 --> 00:06:43,836 Speaker 1: lying at the foot of the wall. He had an 110 00:06:43,876 --> 00:06:46,356 Speaker 1: appetite to look at them, but at the same time 111 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:50,396 Speaker 1: he was disgusted and turned away. For a time, he 112 00:06:50,516 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 1: struggled with himself and covered his face, but finally, overpowered 113 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:58,036 Speaker 1: by the appetite, he pushed his eyes wide open and 114 00:06:58,196 --> 00:07:02,596 Speaker 1: rushed towards the dead bodies, saying, look for yourselves, you 115 00:07:02,796 --> 00:07:08,236 Speaker 1: evil eyes, take your fill of this beautiful site. So 116 00:07:08,316 --> 00:07:11,476 Speaker 1: Plato tells this story at a point in the Republic 117 00:07:11,516 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 1: where he's trying to have his listeners understand that within 118 00:07:17,236 --> 00:07:21,236 Speaker 1: every human being, there are multiple parts pulling the person 119 00:07:21,476 --> 00:07:25,436 Speaker 1: in multiple directions. He wants to show you that you, 120 00:07:25,636 --> 00:07:29,676 Speaker 1: like everyone else, are filled with internal strife. And so 121 00:07:29,716 --> 00:07:32,076 Speaker 1: the story that he tells is basically the story of 122 00:07:32,116 --> 00:07:36,156 Speaker 1: a rubber necker on a highway. Leontius is walking home, right, 123 00:07:36,236 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: He's supposed to go efficiently into the north gate of 124 00:07:38,956 --> 00:07:41,356 Speaker 1: the city, and instead there's a dead body on the 125 00:07:41,396 --> 00:07:44,996 Speaker 1: side of the city wall, and he thinks, like, that's disgusting, 126 00:07:45,116 --> 00:07:47,796 Speaker 1: don't look at that. But part of him, it's just 127 00:07:47,916 --> 00:07:50,556 Speaker 1: fascinated and curious. And the part of him that's fascinated 128 00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:53,316 Speaker 1: and curious keeps pulling him towards the wall. And so 129 00:07:53,356 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 1: the story is about the internal tension that Leontius feels, 130 00:07:57,596 --> 00:08:01,316 Speaker 1: his effort to try to control himself, and then the 131 00:08:01,396 --> 00:08:04,556 Speaker 1: phenomenology the experience that he feels of just giving in. 132 00:08:04,836 --> 00:08:08,196 Speaker 1: I can't control my appetite, I can't control my desire 133 00:08:08,236 --> 00:08:11,036 Speaker 1: to go look at these dead and as many of 134 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 1: us do when we're driving past an accident, he turns 135 00:08:13,836 --> 00:08:16,556 Speaker 1: his head, he looks at the dead bodies, and he 136 00:08:16,716 --> 00:08:20,476 Speaker 1: slows his walk. But the reason I love this story 137 00:08:20,476 --> 00:08:21,996 Speaker 1: so much is that, I mean, it's kind of morbid. 138 00:08:22,036 --> 00:08:23,676 Speaker 1: But the reason I love the story so much is 139 00:08:23,716 --> 00:08:26,716 Speaker 1: that this isn't a tale just about rubber necking. That 140 00:08:26,836 --> 00:08:29,716 Speaker 1: same internal strife that Plato is talking about is what 141 00:08:29,756 --> 00:08:32,356 Speaker 1: I experience in the morning when my alarm goes off 142 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:34,396 Speaker 1: and I know I want to be committed to getting 143 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 1: up and hopping on the elliptical or getting up for 144 00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 1: my morning meditation, but my appetite wants me to sleep in. 145 00:08:40,316 --> 00:08:42,396 Speaker 1: That's what he's talking about, right, That's what he's talking about. 146 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:45,156 Speaker 1: In fact, the reason he tells the story is that 147 00:08:45,236 --> 00:08:47,716 Speaker 1: he wants to set himself up to make the general 148 00:08:47,796 --> 00:08:52,716 Speaker 1: point that human beings are set up inside in such 149 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:56,556 Speaker 1: a way that even if their best self wants to 150 00:08:56,596 --> 00:09:00,116 Speaker 1: do something, they are always going to feel tensions. They're 151 00:09:00,156 --> 00:09:03,396 Speaker 1: always going to feel pulled in many directions. It can 152 00:09:03,436 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 1: be an email that pops up that sends you down 153 00:09:06,676 --> 00:09:09,956 Speaker 1: a rabbit hole on the internet, and Plato's point is 154 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:14,796 Speaker 1: that human beings inevitably find themselves in situations that they 155 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:17,516 Speaker 1: feel pulled in multiple directions. One of the reasons Plato 156 00:09:17,596 --> 00:09:19,796 Speaker 1: was really obsessed with this is that he realized that 157 00:09:19,956 --> 00:09:22,356 Speaker 1: you can't just be a rational self, because we have 158 00:09:22,436 --> 00:09:24,436 Speaker 1: these other parts of our mind. You actually have to 159 00:09:24,476 --> 00:09:27,156 Speaker 1: control the rational self To figure this out and he 160 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:29,596 Speaker 1: had this awesome metaphor that I've actually been telling my 161 00:09:29,636 --> 00:09:33,436 Speaker 1: podcast listeners throughout this whole season about this that involved 162 00:09:33,436 --> 00:09:37,476 Speaker 1: a charioteer, right. Yeah. In fact, he uses different metaphors 163 00:09:37,516 --> 00:09:40,596 Speaker 1: to describe it in different books. In The Republic, which 164 00:09:40,636 --> 00:09:42,916 Speaker 1: is the book that has the layont his story, he 165 00:09:42,956 --> 00:09:45,396 Speaker 1: says that a human being is made up of three parts. 166 00:09:45,396 --> 00:09:48,356 Speaker 1: They're made up of a human being basically their head. 167 00:09:48,836 --> 00:09:51,476 Speaker 1: They're made up of a lion, and they're made up 168 00:09:51,516 --> 00:09:54,436 Speaker 1: of a many headed monster. And the idea is that 169 00:09:54,476 --> 00:09:57,396 Speaker 1: the human being is reason, and the lion is the 170 00:09:57,476 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 1: part of you that's kind of proud, and that the 171 00:10:00,636 --> 00:10:03,156 Speaker 1: many headed beast is the part of you that's interested 172 00:10:03,516 --> 00:10:08,116 Speaker 1: in base passions like food and sex. But in another 173 00:10:08,236 --> 00:10:10,156 Speaker 1: one of his books, a book called The Feed Risk, 174 00:10:10,236 --> 00:10:13,396 Speaker 1: he gives an analogy that I think is even more vivid, 175 00:10:13,596 --> 00:10:17,196 Speaker 1: and he says a human being is like a charioteer 176 00:10:17,436 --> 00:10:22,036 Speaker 1: driving a chariot with two horses. One is a noble 177 00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:25,436 Speaker 1: horse and one is a wild horse. And the noble 178 00:10:25,516 --> 00:10:29,236 Speaker 1: horse is the part of a human being, the aspects 179 00:10:29,276 --> 00:10:34,836 Speaker 1: of ourselves that's interested in honor and social interaction and 180 00:10:34,956 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 1: what other people think of us. If I'm supposed to 181 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:39,916 Speaker 1: sit home and do my podcast, but I go out 182 00:10:39,996 --> 00:10:44,156 Speaker 1: because I give into pure pressure, because I care what 183 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:46,996 Speaker 1: my friends think about me, or I spend a lot 184 00:10:47,036 --> 00:10:50,636 Speaker 1: of time focused on appearance because I want to impress somebody. 185 00:10:51,196 --> 00:10:55,276 Speaker 1: That's the horse of spirit, Whereas the wild horse is 186 00:10:55,276 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 1: the part of ourselves that's interested in fundamental desires that 187 00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:02,596 Speaker 1: we share with other non human animals, like the desire 188 00:11:02,676 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 1: for food, or the desire to sleep, or take physical 189 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:11,356 Speaker 1: pleasure in things like sex, to take in nutrition, and 190 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 1: it needs to ensure that there are future generations. Those 191 00:11:15,356 --> 00:11:18,476 Speaker 1: are the parts of ourselves that he describes in the 192 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:22,236 Speaker 1: Chariot analogy. But the Chariot ideas like any journey we're 193 00:11:22,316 --> 00:11:25,836 Speaker 1: on towards better flourishing, any journey we're on towards becoming 194 00:11:25,836 --> 00:11:28,516 Speaker 1: happier people. One thing we have to do is we 195 00:11:28,556 --> 00:11:30,516 Speaker 1: have to deal with these horses that are kind of 196 00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:33,196 Speaker 1: out of control and running around. It's not just that 197 00:11:33,236 --> 00:11:35,956 Speaker 1: we have to deal with these horses. Basically what moves 198 00:11:36,076 --> 00:11:40,516 Speaker 1: us is the fact that we have fundamental passions and desires. 199 00:11:40,796 --> 00:11:43,596 Speaker 1: The metaphors really a powerful one because it says it's 200 00:11:43,676 --> 00:11:46,356 Speaker 1: not like, oh, if we could just have the person 201 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:49,756 Speaker 1: part of ourselves, we'd be done with things. The story 202 00:11:49,836 --> 00:11:52,636 Speaker 1: says human beings are the kinds of creatures who are 203 00:11:52,676 --> 00:11:58,196 Speaker 1: propelled forward by physical desires and by social desires, and 204 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:01,156 Speaker 1: the key to human flourishing, the way to move fast 205 00:12:01,356 --> 00:12:03,916 Speaker 1: on the path through life is to make sure that 206 00:12:03,956 --> 00:12:06,836 Speaker 1: you're in control of those horses, that the parts of 207 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:10,356 Speaker 1: you that are passion and energy are pulling you in 208 00:12:10,396 --> 00:12:12,836 Speaker 1: the direction that you want to go instead of in 209 00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:16,716 Speaker 1: some wild other direction that they're being pulled. And so 210 00:12:16,756 --> 00:12:18,756 Speaker 1: if we want to become happier people, we need to 211 00:12:18,756 --> 00:12:20,876 Speaker 1: figure out how to deal with this chariot system. We 212 00:12:20,876 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 1: need to get our charioteer to rein in these horses 213 00:12:23,596 --> 00:12:25,436 Speaker 1: and to let them bring us on our journey in 214 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:28,276 Speaker 1: a really productive way. And we'll deal with that question 215 00:12:28,316 --> 00:12:30,636 Speaker 1: of how we actually do that well when the happiness 216 00:12:30,716 --> 00:12:48,636 Speaker 1: lab returns in a moment. So Plato was obsessed with 217 00:12:48,636 --> 00:12:50,996 Speaker 1: this idea that if we really want to be happier people, 218 00:12:51,316 --> 00:12:53,756 Speaker 1: we really need to rein in our desires and our 219 00:12:53,756 --> 00:12:56,156 Speaker 1: passions and really use them in the right ways. But 220 00:12:56,236 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 1: how do we do that? What did Plato figure out 221 00:12:58,156 --> 00:13:00,316 Speaker 1: and how does that drive with modern science. Let's start 222 00:13:00,316 --> 00:13:02,796 Speaker 1: by talking about the first horse, the horse of appetite. 223 00:13:03,076 --> 00:13:04,996 Speaker 1: What did Plato think about how we could kind of 224 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:08,756 Speaker 1: rein in appetite in a productive way. Plato really took 225 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:12,996 Speaker 1: this metaphor seriously. He saw it as illuminating because he 226 00:13:13,076 --> 00:13:17,196 Speaker 1: recognized what contemporary science has recognized, which is a big 227 00:13:17,236 --> 00:13:20,276 Speaker 1: part of human beings, is non human beings that is 228 00:13:20,276 --> 00:13:23,876 Speaker 1: a big part of ourselves are animals. So Plato basically 229 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:27,116 Speaker 1: recognized that the best way to deal with the parts 230 00:13:27,156 --> 00:13:30,556 Speaker 1: of ourselves that are like animals is by dealing with 231 00:13:30,636 --> 00:13:32,996 Speaker 1: them in the way that we deal with things that 232 00:13:33,076 --> 00:13:36,476 Speaker 1: are animals. So imagine you have a dog and you 233 00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:39,996 Speaker 1: don't want the dog to eat some delicious kind of food. 234 00:13:40,836 --> 00:13:43,156 Speaker 1: The best way to keep the dog from eating that 235 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:45,476 Speaker 1: food is not to put the food in front of 236 00:13:45,476 --> 00:13:48,476 Speaker 1: the dog. The second best way might be to put 237 00:13:48,516 --> 00:13:51,596 Speaker 1: a muzzle on the dog. And your very last choice 238 00:13:51,716 --> 00:13:53,356 Speaker 1: is going to be to try to train up your 239 00:13:53,356 --> 00:13:56,036 Speaker 1: dogs so that it doesn't give in to that temptation. 240 00:13:56,476 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 1: So Plato had the same insight with regard to human 241 00:13:59,436 --> 00:14:02,996 Speaker 1: beings themselves. If you want to keep the horse of appetite, 242 00:14:02,996 --> 00:14:05,436 Speaker 1: the part of yourself that's tempted. The best idea is 243 00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 1: to avoid temptations. If you can't do that, then when 244 00:14:09,276 --> 00:14:12,596 Speaker 1: you're in the presence of temptations, you should keep yourself 245 00:14:12,636 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 1: from looking at them. And only in the most difficult 246 00:14:16,076 --> 00:14:19,116 Speaker 1: situations where you can't keep the temptations away and you 247 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:23,716 Speaker 1: can't keep your attention away from the temptations, only then 248 00:14:23,836 --> 00:14:26,676 Speaker 1: should you try to do it through certain kinds of 249 00:14:26,796 --> 00:14:29,596 Speaker 1: self control. And this is super important, right because I 250 00:14:29,596 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 1: think you know, one of the things that Plato is 251 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:34,196 Speaker 1: saying to us is that it's not going to work 252 00:14:34,236 --> 00:14:37,916 Speaker 1: to try to control our appetite just through reflective processes alone. Right, 253 00:14:37,916 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 1: Like just repeatedly telling myself, like you know, I'm an 254 00:14:40,836 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 1: happiness expert, like I should get up in the morning 255 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:45,796 Speaker 1: and like, you know, go work out. Like that doesn't 256 00:14:45,836 --> 00:14:48,396 Speaker 1: work as well, right, Like I need cues to remind 257 00:14:48,396 --> 00:14:50,116 Speaker 1: me to work out. I need to have my shoes out, 258 00:14:50,156 --> 00:14:52,116 Speaker 1: I need to have my gratitude journal where I can 259 00:14:52,156 --> 00:14:54,916 Speaker 1: see it. I need to pretend like this appetite part 260 00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:57,076 Speaker 1: of me is like a dog that I'm basically trying 261 00:14:57,116 --> 00:15:00,396 Speaker 1: to train in the simplest way possible. Right, And idiots 262 00:15:00,436 --> 00:15:03,596 Speaker 1: in many ways literally true that is the things that 263 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:08,516 Speaker 1: are attracting you to food that smells tempting are the 264 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:12,476 Speaker 1: exac same features of your brain that a non human 265 00:15:12,516 --> 00:15:15,836 Speaker 1: animal has that's attracting it to food that smells excellent. 266 00:15:15,876 --> 00:15:17,876 Speaker 1: And in fact, there's a very good reason for it. 267 00:15:18,236 --> 00:15:22,356 Speaker 1: We've evolved to be responsive to food that provides nutrition 268 00:15:22,396 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 1: to us. And so Plato's point is, in many ways, 269 00:15:26,396 --> 00:15:29,156 Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do about the fact that you 270 00:15:29,316 --> 00:15:33,516 Speaker 1: will feel tempted. So your job is to figure out 271 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:37,516 Speaker 1: to the extent that you can reduce the temptations, use 272 00:15:37,596 --> 00:15:41,236 Speaker 1: the cues, and if you can't, only then do you 273 00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:44,036 Speaker 1: use the willpower of the charioteer. You don't have enough 274 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:46,916 Speaker 1: strengthen the reins to do it. Always by the reins, 275 00:15:46,956 --> 00:15:50,076 Speaker 1: you've got to get the horse to cooperate. And what's 276 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:52,516 Speaker 1: amazing is that there's like thousands of years ago, but 277 00:15:52,596 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 1: basically Plato is foreshadowing everything that we know about the 278 00:15:56,996 --> 00:16:00,636 Speaker 1: modern science of habit formation. Right, Like, the easiest way 279 00:16:00,676 --> 00:16:03,956 Speaker 1: to kind of get yourself to control your appetite is 280 00:16:03,956 --> 00:16:05,796 Speaker 1: to get rid of the thing that you don't want 281 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,076 Speaker 1: to be tempted by, you know, whether that's your phone 282 00:16:08,116 --> 00:16:11,436 Speaker 1: or the internet or fattening food or whatever it happens 283 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:13,516 Speaker 1: to be. Is just to get that out of there. 284 00:16:13,716 --> 00:16:15,596 Speaker 1: And by the same token, if there's something you want 285 00:16:15,636 --> 00:16:19,116 Speaker 1: your brain to do, make it really obvious in the situation, right, 286 00:16:19,116 --> 00:16:21,236 Speaker 1: you know, put your gratitude journal out there, like make 287 00:16:21,236 --> 00:16:24,516 Speaker 1: your gym shoes available. That's right. The easier you make 288 00:16:24,556 --> 00:16:27,996 Speaker 1: it for yourself to do it automatically, the better off 289 00:16:28,036 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 1: you're going to be. In fact, there's a famous Greek 290 00:16:30,796 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 1: story that's in a book by Homer called The Odyssey, 291 00:16:34,596 --> 00:16:37,796 Speaker 1: and it's the story of this guy Ulysses. He's trying 292 00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:42,076 Speaker 1: to get home and he's going past an island where 293 00:16:42,156 --> 00:16:45,796 Speaker 1: there's really tempting music, and he knows that if you 294 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:48,876 Speaker 1: hear that music, you're inclined to jump off the ship 295 00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:52,596 Speaker 1: and join the singers because the music is so beautiful. 296 00:16:53,116 --> 00:16:56,476 Speaker 1: And in the story Homer tells two ways of getting 297 00:16:56,516 --> 00:17:00,676 Speaker 1: past that temptation. The oarsmen who are rowing the boat 298 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:03,916 Speaker 1: block their ears so that they can't hear the sound. 299 00:17:04,476 --> 00:17:07,476 Speaker 1: And Ulysses, who wants to hear the sound but not 300 00:17:07,516 --> 00:17:12,476 Speaker 1: be able to act on it, has his soldiers tie 301 00:17:12,596 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 1: him to the mast of the ship. So that story 302 00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:19,676 Speaker 1: is like Plato's story of the Horse. The horse is 303 00:17:19,956 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 1: always going to be tempted. So if you have a 304 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:26,516 Speaker 1: temptation and you haven't put a mechanism in place, either 305 00:17:26,876 --> 00:17:29,516 Speaker 1: to take it out of sight or to control yourself 306 00:17:29,556 --> 00:17:31,876 Speaker 1: in the face of it, it's going to be really, 307 00:17:31,916 --> 00:17:35,196 Speaker 1: really hard to avoid it. But all of the strategies 308 00:17:35,196 --> 00:17:39,916 Speaker 1: that you're describing make the alternate activity salient rather than 309 00:17:39,956 --> 00:17:43,036 Speaker 1: the one you want to avoid or take away access. 310 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:45,476 Speaker 1: Put your phone in a ziplock bag so you can't 311 00:17:45,516 --> 00:17:48,356 Speaker 1: touch it, turn off the Wi Fi on your internet, 312 00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:51,756 Speaker 1: don't have chocolate in the house. All of those are 313 00:17:51,836 --> 00:17:55,116 Speaker 1: exactly the strategies that the ancient Greeks were using. In 314 00:17:55,236 --> 00:17:58,796 Speaker 1: Homer's case, that story is almost eight thousand years old. 315 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 1: All of these strategies, even though they're so ancient, like, 316 00:18:01,116 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 1: what science is finding is that if you use them, 317 00:18:03,996 --> 00:18:06,796 Speaker 1: you're going to actually be successful at regulating your appetite. 318 00:18:06,996 --> 00:18:10,876 Speaker 1: It is a recognition of something that is so deeply 319 00:18:11,076 --> 00:18:15,916 Speaker 1: part of human nature and human experience that basically every 320 00:18:16,036 --> 00:18:19,596 Speaker 1: world wisdom tradition tries to describe it in some way. 321 00:18:19,876 --> 00:18:23,676 Speaker 1: The Buddhist tradition has an analogy of a rider and 322 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:27,516 Speaker 1: an elephant, and it's the same idea. It's the idea 323 00:18:27,676 --> 00:18:31,556 Speaker 1: that part of you is pulled in one direction and 324 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:35,476 Speaker 1: that there's a huge set of desires and passions which 325 00:18:35,516 --> 00:18:40,036 Speaker 1: pull in other directions. And many world religions are about 326 00:18:40,196 --> 00:18:45,076 Speaker 1: building structures that help you regulate those forces and energies, 327 00:18:45,276 --> 00:18:48,156 Speaker 1: and a lot of the things that modern science shows 328 00:18:48,316 --> 00:18:54,316 Speaker 1: to be effective mechanisms are actually there in religious traditions. 329 00:18:54,356 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 1: You build rules around what kind of food you can 330 00:18:57,356 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 1: eat when in a religion, and it's exactly the same 331 00:19:01,716 --> 00:19:04,636 Speaker 1: insight that you see in the modern science. In addition 332 00:19:04,636 --> 00:19:07,316 Speaker 1: to the modern science saying that these are really good strategies, 333 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:09,756 Speaker 1: the other thing that we know science typically is that 334 00:19:09,876 --> 00:19:12,996 Speaker 1: people who are good at regulating their appetites they do 335 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:15,796 Speaker 1: that because they use these strategies. Yeah, one of the 336 00:19:15,836 --> 00:19:19,596 Speaker 1: things that's really interesting is that people who are best 337 00:19:19,636 --> 00:19:24,876 Speaker 1: at self control are actually best at setting up situations 338 00:19:25,036 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 1: in which they don't have to exercise self control. So 339 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:33,956 Speaker 1: a kid who's good at doing homework isn't good at 340 00:19:34,356 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 1: not looking at the phone that's right in front of 341 00:19:36,516 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 1: them while they're doing homework. What that kid is good 342 00:19:39,196 --> 00:19:42,036 Speaker 1: at is setting up their room in such a way 343 00:19:42,076 --> 00:19:45,396 Speaker 1: that they aren't tempted by the phone in the first place. 344 00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:49,676 Speaker 1: The more effective somebody is at what we think of 345 00:19:49,716 --> 00:19:53,556 Speaker 1: as self control and self regulation, the more likely it 346 00:19:53,796 --> 00:19:57,156 Speaker 1: is that they seldom put themselves into situations where they 347 00:19:57,276 --> 00:20:00,556 Speaker 1: even feel tempted. And that's why I love the charioteer 348 00:20:00,596 --> 00:20:02,916 Speaker 1: metaphor and why I keep telling my podcast listeners about 349 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:05,436 Speaker 1: it in this mini season, is that I get that 350 00:20:05,556 --> 00:20:07,836 Speaker 1: intuition so much from the metaphor, right, Like it's a 351 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:10,516 Speaker 1: pain to be holding onto these reins, as this appetite 352 00:20:10,516 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 1: horse is going crazy, Like that requires a lot of work. 353 00:20:13,436 --> 00:20:15,516 Speaker 1: But if you just put blinders on the horse, you know, 354 00:20:15,556 --> 00:20:17,476 Speaker 1: if you can just help the horse, then you don't 355 00:20:17,516 --> 00:20:19,916 Speaker 1: have to worry about like holding onto these reins super hard, 356 00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:23,316 Speaker 1: because the horse is just going to be behaving correctly anyway. 357 00:20:23,476 --> 00:20:27,156 Speaker 1: It's exactly right, set yourself up in situations where you 358 00:20:27,156 --> 00:20:29,796 Speaker 1: don't have to expend all your chariot to your energy 359 00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:33,876 Speaker 1: controlling these horses. So that was what Plato thought about 360 00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:36,516 Speaker 1: the appetite horse, right, this horse that's kind of going 361 00:20:36,556 --> 00:20:38,996 Speaker 1: for you know, like food and like all the kind 362 00:20:38,996 --> 00:20:42,756 Speaker 1: of physical pleasures. But Plato also worried about a different horse, 363 00:20:42,796 --> 00:20:44,956 Speaker 1: which is this horse of spirit, right, which is kind 364 00:20:44,996 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 1: of like, you know, that's the horse that leads me 365 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:48,916 Speaker 1: astray every time I'm trying to like ease myself off 366 00:20:48,916 --> 00:20:51,516 Speaker 1: of social media or not react to some dumb fomo 367 00:20:51,596 --> 00:20:54,476 Speaker 1: instinct or so on. Did Plato also give us some 368 00:20:54,516 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 1: insight about how we could control of that horse? The 369 00:20:57,076 --> 00:21:00,356 Speaker 1: best way to control the horse of spirit, the horse 370 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:05,036 Speaker 1: of honor, is by cultivating habits that are going to 371 00:21:05,076 --> 00:21:08,836 Speaker 1: become the natural way that that horse behaves. So, if 372 00:21:08,876 --> 00:21:11,956 Speaker 1: you think about it, the horse of appetite is never 373 00:21:12,036 --> 00:21:15,556 Speaker 1: going to change what it's attracted to. The horse of 374 00:21:15,596 --> 00:21:18,836 Speaker 1: spirit is a trainable horse. And in fact, one of 375 00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:21,956 Speaker 1: the distinctions that Plato makes when he presents the metaphor 376 00:21:22,436 --> 00:21:24,796 Speaker 1: is that he says the horse of appetite cannot be 377 00:21:24,876 --> 00:21:29,396 Speaker 1: controlled except through punishment, whereas the horse of spirit can 378 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:33,516 Speaker 1: be controlled through argument and explanation. And so how does 379 00:21:33,516 --> 00:21:35,396 Speaker 1: the sort of training work, right, Like, how do we 380 00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:38,556 Speaker 1: actually train up our spirit horse over time? Yeah? So 381 00:21:38,596 --> 00:21:40,676 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about how we train up 382 00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:43,316 Speaker 1: our spirit horse is that what we try to do 383 00:21:43,836 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 1: is to make it natural and pleasurable for the spirit 384 00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:49,796 Speaker 1: horse to do the thing that we want it reflectively 385 00:21:49,876 --> 00:21:52,596 Speaker 1: to do. And one of the nice things about human 386 00:21:52,636 --> 00:21:56,436 Speaker 1: beings is that we enjoy a certain sort of familiarity 387 00:21:56,796 --> 00:21:59,556 Speaker 1: that when we get good at something, we take pleasure 388 00:21:59,716 --> 00:22:02,916 Speaker 1: in doing it. So if you train your spirit horse 389 00:22:03,036 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 1: actually to take pleasure, you sit down and you write 390 00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:09,436 Speaker 1: in your gratitude journal every day and you just cover 391 00:22:10,116 --> 00:22:13,356 Speaker 1: Actually writing in this makes me feel connected to people. 392 00:22:13,956 --> 00:22:16,876 Speaker 1: That's a way of co opting the energy of the 393 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:20,076 Speaker 1: spirit horse so that it takes you along your pathway 394 00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:23,596 Speaker 1: without you having to steer it using the reins. And 395 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:25,476 Speaker 1: so Plato really thought that this was something that we 396 00:22:25,516 --> 00:22:27,756 Speaker 1: could do with the right sorts of strategies, right, Like, 397 00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:30,156 Speaker 1: did you get a sense that Plato himself did it 398 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:34,036 Speaker 1: or that his students did it. So Plato had this 399 00:22:34,236 --> 00:22:37,756 Speaker 1: incredible university, right, I mean, it was the first place 400 00:22:37,796 --> 00:22:42,036 Speaker 1: people came together. And it is true that the academy 401 00:22:42,036 --> 00:22:46,076 Speaker 1: it was just this enclosure outside of Athens. I think 402 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:50,396 Speaker 1: what drew people there originally was the possibility of social interaction. 403 00:22:50,596 --> 00:22:53,436 Speaker 1: It was a kind of high prestige space to be in. 404 00:22:54,036 --> 00:22:57,356 Speaker 1: All the cool kids were hanging out there, and then 405 00:22:57,396 --> 00:22:59,236 Speaker 1: all the cool kids were hanging out there, and then 406 00:22:59,436 --> 00:23:02,996 Speaker 1: Plato taught him some math, and then he taught him 407 00:23:03,036 --> 00:23:06,596 Speaker 1: some metaphysics, and then he taught him some political theory. 408 00:23:06,956 --> 00:23:09,636 Speaker 1: And so there's a way in which the fact that 409 00:23:09,756 --> 00:23:13,636 Speaker 1: human beings are social beings is what allowed Plato to 410 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:18,796 Speaker 1: create this academy where people came together and then once 411 00:23:18,836 --> 00:23:21,316 Speaker 1: they were with each other, they could take pleasure in 412 00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:24,756 Speaker 1: interacting with each other and thinking about ideas. That's cool. 413 00:23:24,796 --> 00:23:27,396 Speaker 1: So Plato was basically using the spirit horse of their 414 00:23:27,436 --> 00:23:29,876 Speaker 1: students to like, you know, drag their charioteer to the 415 00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:32,036 Speaker 1: academy and then they could learn all this good stuff exactly. 416 00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:34,356 Speaker 1: And then the chariotier gets to the academy, it learns 417 00:23:34,396 --> 00:23:37,516 Speaker 1: all the stuff, and then it realizes that this was 418 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:40,236 Speaker 1: in fact attacked it that played off its spiritual So, 419 00:23:40,276 --> 00:23:43,076 Speaker 1: as someone who teaches Plato, are there ways that you've 420 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:46,276 Speaker 1: used his insight to train your own horses? Oh? I 421 00:23:46,316 --> 00:23:50,116 Speaker 1: would say just about everything in my life comes from 422 00:23:50,396 --> 00:23:54,276 Speaker 1: the insights that I've gotten from thinking about the ways 423 00:23:54,316 --> 00:23:59,756 Speaker 1: in which these habits can structure our lives. So during 424 00:23:59,876 --> 00:24:05,076 Speaker 1: the quarantine, my family made a habit. I had unexpectedly 425 00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:08,236 Speaker 1: two kids home from school who had been living away, 426 00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:11,076 Speaker 1: and we just made it a routine that every night 427 00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:14,716 Speaker 1: at seven thirty we would eat dinner together as a family, 428 00:24:15,076 --> 00:24:17,556 Speaker 1: and it just came to feel like a fact about 429 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:19,996 Speaker 1: the world. It wasn't like we had to think about 430 00:24:20,116 --> 00:24:22,916 Speaker 1: should we go downstairs at seven thirty. We just made 431 00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 1: it part of our family's routine, and as a consequence, 432 00:24:26,436 --> 00:24:29,036 Speaker 1: we spent time with each other. And then we remembered 433 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:31,876 Speaker 1: we like being with one another, And then it stopped 434 00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:34,996 Speaker 1: seeming like something governed by the watch and just started 435 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:37,996 Speaker 1: seeming like what it is that we wanted to do naturally. 436 00:24:38,116 --> 00:24:40,316 Speaker 1: We wanted to go down we wanted to eat together, 437 00:24:40,676 --> 00:24:43,196 Speaker 1: and we wanted to spend time with one another. It 438 00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:45,636 Speaker 1: seemed like the Greeks were of fantastic at recognizing not 439 00:24:45,716 --> 00:24:48,676 Speaker 1: just that we have these worrying parts of ourselves, but 440 00:24:48,716 --> 00:24:50,756 Speaker 1: they also gave us some insight into how we could 441 00:24:50,796 --> 00:24:53,236 Speaker 1: control those different parts over time to flourish a little 442 00:24:53,236 --> 00:24:55,716 Speaker 1: bit better. Kind of what was the next steps, Like 443 00:24:55,756 --> 00:24:57,996 Speaker 1: what did the Greeks kind of leave in terms of 444 00:24:58,036 --> 00:25:00,356 Speaker 1: their legacy for the next thinkers to come around and 445 00:25:00,396 --> 00:25:04,796 Speaker 1: sort out. Yeah, so there's real insight if we'd played 446 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:11,796 Speaker 1: an Aristotle about how to control drives in ourselves but 447 00:25:12,076 --> 00:25:15,796 Speaker 1: you don't get in Plato and Aristotle explicitly the thought 448 00:25:15,836 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 1: that actually the charioteer can do the same sort of 449 00:25:20,196 --> 00:25:23,316 Speaker 1: tricks on itself. And one of the things that you 450 00:25:23,436 --> 00:25:26,756 Speaker 1: start getting in a tradition that starts just a couple 451 00:25:26,876 --> 00:25:31,316 Speaker 1: hundred years later, in writers like Epictitis, is the idea 452 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:36,436 Speaker 1: that in fact, you can control how it is that 453 00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:40,676 Speaker 1: you represent the world to yourself, and that you can 454 00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:44,036 Speaker 1: think about things as being in your control or out 455 00:25:44,036 --> 00:25:47,916 Speaker 1: of your control. You can frame something as letting it 456 00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:50,956 Speaker 1: bother you or not letting it bother you, and that 457 00:25:51,236 --> 00:25:55,516 Speaker 1: that frame can be self fulfilling. If you decide that 458 00:25:55,596 --> 00:25:59,756 Speaker 1: somebody else's disapproval doesn't matter to you, you actually make 459 00:25:59,756 --> 00:26:02,996 Speaker 1: it the case that somebody else's disapproval doesn't matter to you, 460 00:26:03,476 --> 00:26:08,956 Speaker 1: and you don't find that thought explicitly articulated until you 461 00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:16,036 Speaker 1: get to this subsequent tradition. I love hearing Tamarro explaining 462 00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 1: the ideas of the ancient Greeks. Their stories are so 463 00:26:18,876 --> 00:26:21,996 Speaker 1: vivid and a tiny bit gory too. But as well 464 00:26:21,996 --> 00:26:25,676 Speaker 1: as being entertaining, Plato's work brings me great comfort. I'm 465 00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:28,636 Speaker 1: constantly beating myself up about not sticking to my goals 466 00:26:28,796 --> 00:26:32,076 Speaker 1: and giving into temptation. Plato helps me understand that my 467 00:26:32,196 --> 00:26:35,436 Speaker 1: horses are just doing what comes naturally. Once I realized 468 00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:39,116 Speaker 1: all this, driving my chariot became far less exhausting and 469 00:26:39,236 --> 00:26:42,676 Speaker 1: a lot more fun. In the next episode of Happiness 470 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:45,836 Speaker 1: Lessons of the Ancients, we're going to take Tamar's suggestion 471 00:26:46,116 --> 00:26:48,756 Speaker 1: and explore a school of philosophy that was built on 472 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:52,116 Speaker 1: the foundation of Plato and Aristotle. So I hope you'll 473 00:26:52,196 --> 00:27:01,676 Speaker 1: join me next time in Ancient Rome. The Happiness Lab 474 00:27:01,716 --> 00:27:04,436 Speaker 1: is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show 475 00:27:04,476 --> 00:27:07,036 Speaker 1: was mastered by Evan Viola, and our original music was 476 00:27:07,076 --> 00:27:11,356 Speaker 1: composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to the entire Pushkin crew, 477 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:16,396 Speaker 1: including Mia LaBelle, Carlie Migliori, Heather Faine, Sophie Crane, mc gibbon, 478 00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 1: Merik Sandler, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. The 479 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:23,796 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and me, 480 00:27:24,116 --> 00:27:26,436 Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos