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Speaker 1: Friends and neighbors fellow conspiracy realist, pro fascist, and anti

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Speaker 1: fascist alike. Back in twenty twenty, there was a word

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Speaker 1: that kept popping up in US discourse Antifatifa antifa there, Yes,

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Speaker 1: did you.

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Speaker 2: Guys see the recent Well it's all some clips going

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Speaker 2: around with an FBI official testifying before a congressional committee

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Speaker 2: about antifa and how it's the most dangerous domestic terror

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Speaker 2: threat within the United States right.

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Speaker 1: Now, and really dropping the ball when as specifics, because

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Speaker 1: it turns out it's kind of like saying the biggest

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Speaker 1: threat to the United States is feminism and you say, well,

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Speaker 1: where's their headquarters?

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Speaker 3: Well, and I go, I don't know. Well, I guess that's

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Speaker 3: the thing. I mean. Back in the simpler days of

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty, where this was really just starting to get

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Speaker 3: thrown around, I think it was pretty clear what it

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Speaker 3: was in terms of like a concepts or you know,

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Speaker 3: the idea of being anti fascist. But then like a

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Speaker 3: lot of terms in the wrong hands kind of get

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Speaker 3: weaponized and redefined and taken over. So it'll be kind

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Speaker 3: of an interesting time capsule, honestly. Oh yeah, to see

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Speaker 3: where we were and where we are.

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Speaker 2: Well, we know, when it comes to things like revolutions,

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Speaker 2: and idea can be one of the most dangerous and

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Speaker 2: viral things that exists. Right, So there is something maybe

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Speaker 2: to be thinking about here when it comes to an

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Speaker 2: opposition to whatever the status quo is or you know,

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Speaker 2: a current administration or something. Maybe the idea of whatever

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Speaker 2: antifa is could be their biggest threat, which is weird

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Speaker 2: to think about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the mission creep of definitions, Right, this phrase is,

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Speaker 1: as we said at Portmanteau, of anti fascist, which in

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Speaker 1: general is something people can universally agree upon being bad

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Speaker 1: in a democracy. But now, as we'll see it, may

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Speaker 1: the term may have experienced definition creeps such that it

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Speaker 1: becomes defined as anything antithetical to what I like.

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Speaker 3: That's right. You'll even remember in that recent kind of

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Speaker 3: love fest in the Oval Office between Mondomni, the recently

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Speaker 3: elected mayor of New York City, and President Trump, who

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Speaker 3: had previously been mega mega against that dude, he made

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Speaker 3: a little joke about, Oh, it's okay, you can say

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Speaker 3: I'm a fascist. Just go ahead, it's fine, it's fine.

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Speaker 3: Like the level of truthlessness almost that that term has

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Speaker 3: achieved in a way, it's a little it's a little concerning.

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Speaker 1: So to that earlier point, let's roll the tape and

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Speaker 1: let's see what we learned in twenty twenty and how

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Speaker 1: it's aged in the modern day.

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Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 5: A production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 6: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our super producers Paul,

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Speaker 1: Mission Control Decand as well as Alexis nicknamed to be

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Speaker 1: Determined Jackson. Most importantly, you are you. You are here,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know,

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Speaker 1: or at least that's the name we use when we

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Speaker 1: describe this show. Today's question starts with first figuring out what's.

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Speaker 4: In a name.

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Speaker 1: We know they're powerful currency in the modern media, right,

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Speaker 1: They're a cognitive shortcut. You've only got so much time

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Speaker 1: on air if you're a news anchor. Names can also

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Speaker 1: function as what's known as a thought terminating shay. This

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Speaker 1: is familiar. It's a long time conspiracy realist, and the

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Speaker 1: more we think about this insidious practice of grouping multiple

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Speaker 1: things under one phrase, the more often we notice it.

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Speaker 1: Conspiracy theorists. That's an easy phrase as an example, but

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Speaker 1: then there are things like truthers, for instance, snowflakes, or

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Speaker 1: for an historical example, forty nine ers. This is common.

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Speaker 1: This naming practice is common in all walks of life,

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Speaker 1: numerous fears of debate. There's not one political group that

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Speaker 1: does it more than any other. If you're watching the

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Speaker 1: news in the United States recently, you are aware of

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Speaker 1: a term that has attained a new prominence all its own,

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Speaker 1: antifa or antifa, antifa, antifa antifa.

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Speaker 2: I think it just depends where you are when you're

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Speaker 2: saying it. Perhaps we're gonna find out what it means

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Speaker 2: and you'll realize that all of those kind of work.

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Speaker 1: It's it's funny because antifa sounds like someone's aunt who's

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Speaker 1: like named fa, you know, or like short for parah. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're also, regardless of how you choose to pronounce it,

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Speaker 1: you're probably aware of just how controversial this term and

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Speaker 1: what it represents can be. It's not a stretch to

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Speaker 1: say there are, if we're being diplomatic, differing opinions about

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Speaker 1: what antifah actually is and we can't even agree how

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Speaker 1: to pronounce it. And as we explore these opinions, we

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Speaker 1: quickly find ourselves hip deep in conspiracy. But first, here

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Speaker 1: are the facts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, let's just do a

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Speaker 3: little housekeeping with the term here. What does antifha actually mean?

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Speaker 3: Where does the word come from? It seems to many

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Speaker 3: of us to be a very recent development, at least

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Speaker 3: here in the United States. The term traces back, however,

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Speaker 3: to Germany. In the nineteen thirties, the Communist Party of

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Speaker 3: Germany had a wing called I'm going to do my

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Speaker 3: best here anti fascistischa achchion. I'm not perfect, but I

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Speaker 3: think that was close. There's a lot of repeated sounds

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Speaker 3: in that one. It's I had to do a double take.

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Speaker 3: And this later became referred to by a much more

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Speaker 3: abbreviated and punchy word antifa, or of course anti fascists.

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Speaker 1: I got okay, So one thing I want to hear

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Speaker 1: what you guys think about this is entirely my unfounded opinion.

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Speaker 1: This is not a fact and should be not taken

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Speaker 1: as such. But it seems to me, if you want

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Speaker 1: to build a lasting movement or rally around some sort

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Speaker 1: of cause it's smarter to make a name that stands

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Speaker 1: for something rather than against it. Like a good example

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Speaker 1: in this nomenclature would be the two very different names

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Speaker 1: used on others on opposite sides of the abortion debate.

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Speaker 1: Supporters of abortion are most likely going to describe themselves

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Speaker 1: as pro choice, right, and opponents would describe themselves as

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Speaker 1: pro life. They're not anti abortionists by their own description,

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Speaker 1: and people aren't necessarily on the pro choice side describing

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Speaker 1: themselves as.

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Speaker 3: Pro abortion.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, there's a marketing power in names there, so,

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Speaker 1: Like anti fascism starts as what like it's against something

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Speaker 1: that already existed, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's against something that I think most people

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Speaker 3: would typically characterize as bad.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: That's the thing that's so interesting about this whole debate,

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Speaker 3: Like when well, yeah, I don't know, Matt, what do

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Speaker 3: you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, I just I would say, first we have to

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Speaker 2: know what fascism is, right, And that's another part of

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Speaker 2: this whole thing that that word, that term gets thrown

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Speaker 2: around an awful lot, and you know, it's on us

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Speaker 2: to learn what that is before we, you know, are

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Speaker 2: throwing around antifa.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like if my boss makes me work on a weekend.

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Speaker 3: I call that person a fascist. That's appropriate use of

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Speaker 3: that term. Right.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're gonna find out here in a moment. The

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Speaker 2: big thing is that today when that you know, that

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Speaker 2: term antifa is thrown around, it's really misleading because it's

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Speaker 2: being applied to a ton of different individuals, of groups

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Speaker 2: and organizations, of even the the tactics that are employed

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Speaker 2: by individuals or groups. And you know, the idea here

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Speaker 2: is to fight fascism, right. It is short for anti

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Speaker 2: fascism against fascism, So what exactly is fascism?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: And now now we're in even deeper definitional water, right,

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Speaker 1: because fascism, like antifa or anti fascism, doesn't really have

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Speaker 1: its own solid, uh solid definition. Fascism does have a

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Speaker 1: fascinating history.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm gonna leave.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I can see you can't leave. You're already home, Matt.

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Speaker 2: Where are you gonna go anywhere?

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Speaker 6: But here I've seen all of the zoom going. We're

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Speaker 6: just gonna move on. We'll pretend that.

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Speaker 3: No, no, we were all with this here on. They

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know, but it's true. It's it's

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Speaker 3: a word that comes from something seeming pretty innocuous. It's

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Speaker 3: an Italian word fascio, referring to a bundle, which in

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Speaker 3: this case would represent groups of people. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: I think we'll get to this, but it's become negative

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Speaker 3: by association. The initial like it wasn't designed to be

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Speaker 3: an inherently negative thing. It was just designed to be descriptive.

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Speaker 3: It's origins date all the way back to ancient Rome,

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Speaker 3: when the fascis was a bundle of wood with an

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Speaker 3: axe head that was carried by leaders in Roman politics,

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Speaker 3: and the finding fascism today is much more complicated because

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Speaker 3: of the fact that many governments, organizations, and individuals have

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Speaker 3: been called this. It's been lot you know, lobbed around

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Speaker 3: as kind of a term of abuse. In post World

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Speaker 3: War Two, this was often used as an insult by

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Speaker 3: opponents or critics of a given movement or a government,

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Speaker 3: like the way I, you know, talk about.

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Speaker 6: My boss who loves this show.

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Speaker 3: By the way, I know, I don't mean it, which.

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Speaker 6: One I don't know of the loves is show.

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Speaker 2: We have so many bosses.

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Speaker 6: Now that's corporate America, my figurative boss.

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Speaker 3: You guys, this is not this is just for the

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Speaker 3: purposes of demonstration. Here, But it was Mussolini that really

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Speaker 3: got the phrase to kind of catch fire and be

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Speaker 3: associated with what we think of as fascism today.

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Speaker 6: True story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, Noel in nineteen fifteen, one of the

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Speaker 1: only bad bends in history. There aren't a ton of them, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Benito Mussolini. That's where we think of fascism. That's the

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Speaker 1: sort of origin story of modern fascism. And when we

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Speaker 1: tried to define it, we see that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in academia and politics have made their careers based

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Speaker 1: on arguing what the hell this is or is not.

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Speaker 1: Generally speaking, it's somewhere between a specific genre of authoritarian

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Speaker 1: government and a set of tactics deployed by governmental institutions.

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Speaker 1: So kind of like how all mazes are puzzles, but

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Speaker 1: not all puzzles are mazes. All fascist governments are authoritarian,

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Speaker 1: but not all authoritarian governments are fascist.

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Speaker 2: Very good, ben I love the old mazes, puzzles analogy.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about what those characteristics are, right, and

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Speaker 2: some of them are. You know, how they function and

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Speaker 2: then what they do, actions they take. So you could

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Speaker 2: describe a fascist group or government as being very very

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Speaker 2: against and opposed to their opposers to anyone who is

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Speaker 2: going to be a dissident or not believe the same

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Speaker 2: things that they believe or fight against I guess the

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Speaker 2: desired beliefs of a populace. They're going to aggressively attempt

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Speaker 2: to suppress that or block that in some way. They

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Speaker 2: are going to attempt to, you know, use whatever power

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Speaker 2: that they do have this group or government, to essentially

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Speaker 2: use it in a dictatorial way. So what they say

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Speaker 2: goes anybody else. Again, going back to the first one,

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Speaker 2: is not welcome. They want to have intense control on

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Speaker 2: everything that occurs within their society, within the whatever it

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Speaker 2: is that they control. Right, that's everything from the economy

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Speaker 2: to what people can and can't do in their personal lives.

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Speaker 2: And another characteristic here is that depending on how let's say,

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Speaker 2: let's just say it's a government, depending on how the

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Speaker 2: politics and government work within an individual area, when you

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Speaker 2: have a fascist group in power, essentially this group is

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Speaker 2: going to see fit to change whatever rules existed prior

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Speaker 2: to them coming into power. Right That's I guess one

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Speaker 2: of the things that we could say there.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think hand in hand with that comes a

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Speaker 3: strong sense of nationalism. Yes, because it's there has to

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Speaker 3: be an other ing, you know, in order to say

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Speaker 3: we are the ones who are right, we are the

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Speaker 3: righteous path. All others who oppose us are wrong and

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Speaker 3: therefore need to be shut down. And that requires kind

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Speaker 3: of like a you know, it's us against the world,

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Speaker 3: and that inherently is a pretty nationalist kind of view. Right.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's a very important important thing here, is

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Speaker 2: that wherever they are functioning, there's going to be a

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Speaker 2: US versus everyone else's attitude. Essentially, that's put forth in

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Speaker 2: everything from laws to you know, small things on the

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Speaker 2: books that you wouldn't call a law necessarily just kind

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Speaker 2: of a norm. Ultra nationalism is certainly a factor.

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Speaker 6: Here, and it can't. It's sort of the way that.

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Speaker 1: This is a weird sentence I never thought I would say,

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Speaker 1: not as a dean on capitalism or fascism, but a

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Speaker 1: comparison I think that's worth making, is that the same

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Speaker 1: way capitalism must have a profit motive to exist for

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Speaker 1: that mechanism to work, fascism must have a conflict motive

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Speaker 1: to exist. Fascism must exist in opposition to something. And

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Speaker 1: also it's super convenient if you're an iron gloved dictator,

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Speaker 1: because you can just change what fascism means whenever you want.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean, We've always been at war

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Speaker 1: with East Asia, Right, that's one of the most pivotal

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Speaker 1: impactful lines of fascism in fiction and or well in

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Speaker 1: self of course about anti fascist or antifa member. But

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Speaker 1: so antifa is something we can't fully define fighting something

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Speaker 1: and we also fully defined we know the characteristics, we

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Speaker 1: know the actions and the tactics. But I'm intrigued to

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Speaker 1: hear more about antifa history because, like you said, Nola

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Speaker 1: doesn't it didn't start in twenty seventeen in Charlottesville.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I mean, as a movement, it has

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Speaker 3: its own origins and what we might describe as the left,

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Speaker 3: even the Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the idea of

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Speaker 3: anarchists and the like. So while fascism is often characterized

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Speaker 3: as being a far right, militaristic, you know, hypernationalist ideology,

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Speaker 3: again problematic to even you know, assign it to an ideology.

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Speaker 3: In particular, anti fascism is the opposite. It's it's it's

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Speaker 3: very much something that that that leans far to the left.

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Speaker 3: Part of this comes from the simple order of operations

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Speaker 3: that you find in history. Leftist groups were the first

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Speaker 3: primary targets of fascist violence, and it arose as a

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Speaker 3: reaction to that violence, as a way to organize and

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Speaker 3: protect folks that were identifying in this way from these

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Speaker 3: types of attacks.

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Speaker 2: And there's an author who is cited quite often when

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Speaker 2: discussing this topic. His name is Mark Bray and he

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Speaker 2: wrote Antifa the Anti fas Just Handbook, and he writes

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Speaker 2: about how you know, the modern movement of antifa, it

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Speaker 2: really started in the nineteen eighties, and there's a group

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Speaker 2: at that time called Anti Racist Action. Its members confronted

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Speaker 2: neo Nazis, another pretty modern movement of an older thing.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: They would go to punk gigs, you know, music performances

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Speaker 2: and everything, and they would gone in the Midwest and

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Speaker 2: other places in the United States and they would just

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Speaker 2: actually have confrontations with people that they believed to be

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Speaker 2: neo Nazis.

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Speaker 1: Are you guys familiar with the sharp movement yep, Skinheads

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Speaker 1: against racial Prejudice.

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Speaker 3: I always found that to be fascinating. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 3: with a rise and skinheads, and like punk rock scenes

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Speaker 3: and hardcore scenes in the eighties, there was a splintering

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Speaker 3: and folks who like I guess, still identified with the

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Speaker 3: aesthetic of a lot of that, but we're not about

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Speaker 3: that life, not about that nationalists ideology, and it was

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Speaker 3: something that began in New York in nineteen eighty six.

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Speaker 3: But the idea of you know, someone that like, hey,

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Speaker 3: skinheads can be cool too, you know, we can also

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Speaker 3: be like about equality, and so therefore you have the

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Speaker 3: sharp movement.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a tremendous point. It's one that echoes

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Speaker 1: what we set up at the beginning, which is these

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Speaker 1: grouping disparate movements or people under the same convenient figure

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Speaker 1: of speech or turn or phrase. Sure it feels good

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Speaker 1: to do that, because we're humans. We categorize and classify things.

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Speaker 1: We want to see patterns, but we do a disservice

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Speaker 1: to ourselves and others when we fall into that trap.

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Speaker 1: By the early two thousands, the Antifa movement in the

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Speaker 1: US was I guess considered mostly dormant in terms of

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Speaker 1: mass media, Like, there were definitely groups who align themselves

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Speaker 1: with that, they just weren't getting in CNN.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they certainly weren't getting but they were also

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Speaker 2: they were showing up every once in a while. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you guys remember, especially during George W.

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Speaker 2: Bush's presidency, there were a ton of protests and there

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Speaker 2: was some reporting on anti fascist movements, but it was

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Speaker 2: very few and far between, and I can't recall at

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Speaker 2: least any major protests that turned violent in a way

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Speaker 2: that the you know, group in power, whoever was president

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Speaker 2: at the time, whoever was running the show, that they

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Speaker 2: had such a response I guess, or a public response

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Speaker 2: against this group or people who they labeled as Antifa.

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Speaker 1: Or like Black Bloc as well and occupied movements, which

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Speaker 1: we'll get in Doorri. We'll meet the Black Bloc later.

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Speaker 1: Now fast forward to just a few years ago. Don't

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Speaker 1: call it a comeback, or do call it a comeback?

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Speaker 1: Antifa is back in the new whose they get new

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Speaker 1: modern prominence after the events of what was called the

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Speaker 1: Unite the Right rally. You probably remember the photographs that

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Speaker 1: went around the US and the world of people marching

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Speaker 1: with tiki torches saying things like Jews will not replace us.

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Speaker 1: This was a gathering of numerous right wing groups, including

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Speaker 1: as you can tell from that slogan, white supremacist in Charlottesville,

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Speaker 1: Virginia and August of twenty seventeen, Antifa was back in

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Speaker 1: the news described as counter protesters in this debacle, and today,

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Speaker 1: you know, it'd be surprising to look through most news

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Speaker 1: sources on their websites or watch most news channel shows

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Speaker 1: and not notice some sort of mention of Antifa. But

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Speaker 1: the groups, there are groups who identifi as anti It's

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Speaker 1: a very real thing. This wasn't made up out of

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Speaker 1: whole cloth. The problem is that there are a number

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Speaker 1: of groups identifying with this, and they have different, at

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Speaker 1: times contradictory goals, and they have an even wider range

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Speaker 1: of different tactics.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, that's right. I mean it would typically be

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Speaker 3: stuff you would categorize as non violent, like chanting, shouting,

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Speaker 3: having sit ins, human chains, you know, holding up signs,

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Speaker 3: the like. But ANTIFAP has become controversial because they're like

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Speaker 3: any loved together large movement that there are many, many

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Speaker 3: kind of splintered factions of like with the skinhead example,

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Speaker 3: there are going to be more extreme, little kind of

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Speaker 3: offshoots of this. So some of these factions of protesters

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Speaker 3: that's often referred to as agitators, which is another kind

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Speaker 3: of term of abuse that's very easy to categorize. All

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Speaker 3: of the members of this movement as agitators because of

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Speaker 3: a couple of bad apples or whatever, if you will.

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Speaker 3: Got to hate that term, but it's what we have.

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Speaker 3: So there's a belief in direct action, confrontation, and at

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Speaker 3: times violence. That can include things like actual weapons, pepper spray,

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Speaker 3: brass knuckles, throwing bricks through store windows and cars, vandalism, graffiti,

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Speaker 3: knives and you know, switchblades, things like that that are

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Speaker 3: easily conceivable, and in the modern day, it can include

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Speaker 3: internet based tactics, things like doxing, when you release people's

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Speaker 3: personal information or basically, you know, just outright misinformation, spreading

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Speaker 3: about individuals and trying to ruin people's reputations online. So

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Speaker 3: for example, releasing personal information about a victim online, getting

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Speaker 3: someone fired for their political views, putting them on blast

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Speaker 3: in that way, not in a positive way, which someone

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Speaker 3: maybe deserves it, but I guess deserving it depends on

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Speaker 3: side of the argument you're on. Some of these folks

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Speaker 3: who are righteously indignant might believe that they are doing

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Speaker 3: the right thing that that's not really the point. So

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Speaker 3: why are there so many conflicting narratives and is there

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Speaker 3: one way?

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Speaker 2: Is there like a truth core to this whole thing.

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Speaker 2: So it really does take us back to the main

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Speaker 2: problem here. And that's in the same way when you're

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Speaker 2: dealing with a group that has no leader, right, that

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Speaker 2: has no head, that has no mission statement essentially for

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Speaker 2: the entire group, and control you know, from one sector

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Speaker 2: or from one governing board, however you want to put it,

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Speaker 2: Just like Anonymous, the same thing with Antifa, there is

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Speaker 2: nobody at the helm. It is like minded people that

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Speaker 2: identify as this movement as Antifa. And again, much like

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Speaker 2: groups like Anonymous with Antifa, when someone claims they are

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Speaker 2: on Tifa, they are on Tifa. That's how it goes, right,

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Speaker 2: and that's.

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Speaker 6: Your qualification is wanting to be that right?

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Speaker 2: Yes, and then generally, you know, there's no swag to

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Speaker 2: buy necessarily. I'm sure you could find it somewhere on Pinterest.

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Speaker 2: Somebody's got an amazing Antifa store there.

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Speaker 1: It's not like the KKK or the Communist Party. I'm

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Speaker 1: picking two different organizations, so I'm not picking anyone. Like

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Speaker 1: you want to be in the Communist Party, you have

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Speaker 1: to apply dual body, you have to join, there's a membership,

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Speaker 1: there are probably dues. KKK is the same they have ranks,

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Speaker 1: they have a hierarchy that doesn't exist in this concept.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or like the Crips and the Bloods who both

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Speaker 2: had their own soda in Atlanta at least for a

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Speaker 2: while there thanks to Killer Mike. Good on you, Killer Mike.

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Speaker 2: You know you have to you have to look at

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Speaker 2: this in from both sides, right, And that's what we're

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Speaker 2: tempting to do today. So not only do you just

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Speaker 2: get to decide that you're Antifa and then you be

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Speaker 2: come Antifa. In the same way, if you have an opponent,

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Speaker 2: let's say, or someone that you dislike their views with

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Speaker 2: and you label them through your words or actions Antifa,

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Speaker 2: then guess what they are until that person comes forward

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Speaker 2: improves that they are not right.

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Speaker 1: And then you could say, that's exactly what an ANTIFA

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Speaker 1: member would say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's really good.

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Matt. The definition is dangerously malleable if

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Speaker 1: you think about it. It's like beauty or pornography. The

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Speaker 1: definition all too often lies in the eye of the beholder.

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Speaker 1: And for anyone interested in what a problem those two

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Speaker 1: definitions have been, I would recommend checking out the court

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Speaker 1: case in the US pertaining to James Joyce's ulysses where

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Speaker 1: the I think the deciding legal opinion was some high

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Speaker 1: faluting version of pornography is pornography. Everybody knows what it

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Speaker 1: is when they see it.

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Speaker 3: With maple Thorpe as well. Sorry, I mean to know,

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Speaker 3: you're totally right, and that's problematic because that's how Antifa

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Speaker 3: is used as well, where we don't have a good definition,

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Speaker 3: but it's used by people in power as Oh, that's

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Speaker 3: what it is because I know it when I see it.

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Speaker 1: And it's this slippery definition that fuels the numerous ongoing

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories about Antifa. What are we talking about? We'll

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Speaker 1: tell you after a word from our sponsor. Here's where

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Speaker 1: it gets crazy. First, I you know, thinking about this

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Speaker 1: off air, it's it's always it's like a fireworks show.

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Speaker 1: Do we save the big explosion for the end or

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Speaker 1: do we start big? I feel like we have to

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Speaker 1: start big with the most prevalent conspiracy theory about Antifa.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I know where you're going with us, Ben, Oh boy,

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Speaker 2: don't know exactly where you're going, So all right, all right,

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Speaker 2: let's just do it. So the first thing you've probably

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Speaker 2: read likely on Facebook. I'm gonna bet Facebook maybe Twitter

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Speaker 2: to Twitter. Actually, you know what, anywhere on social media,

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Speaker 2: you've probably heard something on there about how on tifa

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Speaker 2: and tifa whatever it is. You know what are these

432
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: groups of all these differing contradictory aims. Somehow all of

433
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 2: these people are knowingly working together in secret and have

434
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: a leader.

435
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: They actually have a leader, right.

436
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 2: People who really put this theory forward, or people who

437
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 2: at least believe it right, they will argue something like

438
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: astroturfing that we've talked about a lot on this show,

439
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 2: where essentially there would be a lot of varying groups

440
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 2: standing in that you would see in the spotlight, right,

441
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: but they're actually standing in for something else, and the group, well,

442
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: I mean, that's kind of like a front company. But

443
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: in this case, it would be as though every time

444
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 2: you see a big group of protesters, they aren't actually

445
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 2: there of their own volition. They aren't actually there to

446
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: protest something. They're being paid to be there. They're like,

447
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: I don't know, straw end protesters. I don't know what

448
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 2: to say about that, guys. But ultimately, people who believe

449
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: this would put forward that these these really wealthy, generally

450
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: left wing individuals and groups are the ones that are

451
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 2: behind Antifa. They're the ones funding them, radicalizing them, putting

452
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: them on buses or in other ways to send them

453
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: to towns and cities everywhere to wreak havoc on the

454
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: United States on both the status quo, on the infrastructure,

455
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: on the economy, on everything. And they're doing it for

456
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: their own nefarious and probably for money and power reasons.

457
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 3: But Matt, a leader of this type would have to

458
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 3: be very, very wealthy and have lots of resources and

459
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: also wield a lot of influence politically.

460
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 7: Right.

461
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,719
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, there is a prominent figure here that you

462
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: have likely heard many many times before, mister George Soros.

463
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 6: Oh yes, you know him, you love him.

464
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: George Soros.

465
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: He's a billionaire. As of May, his estimated net worth

466
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: was in the ballpark of eight point three billion dollars.

467
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: Fellow listeners, It's important to keep in mind, however, that

468
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: every person at that level of wealth is more than

469
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: capable of hiding the full extent of their assets. So

470
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: while that's a good financial guess, you should not take

471
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: it as gospel. Soros has been accused of so many things.

472
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: He's he occurs in conspiracy lore, not as often as

473
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: the Rothschild's, but he's an up and comer on the charts.

474
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: He's been accused of vowing to destroy the United States.

475
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: Reuters claimed to have debunked this, but the belief remains.

476
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: He's also been accused of outright owning Antifah, kind of

477
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: the way you would own maybe a trademark or a

478
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 1: company or a battalion. And he's been accused of owning

479
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter movement as well. This comes from

480
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: one of his primary political enterprises is something called the

481
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: Open Society Foundation. Longtime listeners, you know that innocuous names

482
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: with a lot of money behind them usually means something

483
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: something fishing.

484
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 6: Might be going on.

485
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: Just be suspicious anyway. This foundation OSF claims that they

486
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: support the aims of the Black Lives Matter movement, and

487
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: they support the aims of other protests, but that they

488
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: do not pay these organizations. They don't pay them to organize,

489
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: they don't importantly pay protesters to show up, and the

490
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: leaders of Black Lives Matter say that they're relatively dis

491
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: centralized group.

492
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 6: However, you do a little.

493
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: Bit of digging, Open Society Foundation makes a lot of donations,

494
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: they create a lot of grants. They did set up

495
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: a twelve million dollar grant and this is the verbatim

496
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: quote here to help organizations fighting institutional racism. They also

497
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: donate to a number of related groups things that ally

498
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: with their aims across the planet. And it's concluding things

499
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: like planned parenthood. It's including things, you know, like groups

500
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: that try to address systemic or institutional racism. So kind

501
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: of this the heart of this conspiracy sort of hinges

502
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: on whether what's the difference between a donation and what's

503
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: the difference between out and out payment, Like are you

504
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: giving people support because you believe in their mission or

505
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: are you paying them to do to do a specific task,

506
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

507
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and also it arises the question of whether

508
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: or not by supporting you are talking about bussing in

509
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: protesters or some action like that, which is something that occurs.

510
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 2: We've seen it happen in the past for you know,

511
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: various protests for various photo opportunities that have occurred in

512
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: the past. It is a real thing that has occurred

513
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: where people are shipped in from other places on purpose

514
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: by a group that is willing to pay the money

515
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: for the bus.

516
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 3: Right, But is that inherently like bad or a criokeet

517
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 3: or disingenuous. I mean, you know, people who support certain

518
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: political parties might bus folks into the polls who couldn't

519
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 3: get a ride otherwise, or you know, I mean, isn't

520
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: this just a way of supporting a movement.

521
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying we know that

522
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: that occurs, and it is possible there if you were,

523
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 2: let's say, going to pay several bus loads of people

524
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: to go, like you're paying for the bus and giving

525
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: each person there a small amount of money, who is

526
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: going to go and spend their day doing that? That

527
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: would be riding the line, right.

528
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean these are both fantastic points. I guess

529
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: I would say, like, first off, I can't speak for

530
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: everybody in the conspiracy stuff fam, but I've never donated

531
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: millions of dollars. What I have donated, you know, has

532
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: not at this point at least reached some threshold where

533
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: an organization cares specifically what I want. Like if I

534
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: donate to a literacy fund, they're not going to me

535
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: and going, oh, you know, is there any book you

536
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: don't want kids.

537
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 6: Or the elderly to read? They don't care.

538
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: I'll just get a letter that says, hey, thanks for

539
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: agreeing with us that people should be able to read.

540
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: So I don't know how much power is there, you know,

541
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: but but that point about what services are rendered or

542
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, what that money is supporting. It's kind of like,

543
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: you know, the argument is like with the Tea party argument,

544
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: where people said, these folks might think their grassroots testers,

545
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: but they're being funded and pushed into the forefront by

546
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: very powerful right wing entities, and that that did turn

547
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: out to be at least partially true.

548
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 6: I just don't know.

549
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: I think also, I've got to I don't know about

550
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: you guys, but I have a little bit of a

551
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: billionaire prejudice. I just like, we see the way that

552
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: countries with less money than Soros are able to already

553
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: influence elections right in a tremendously effective way. So isn't

554
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: it kind of circuitous to like take the long road

555
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: around when you could just buy politicians.

556
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 6: I don't know. Maybe it's about the journey. I don't

557
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 6: know what it's like to be a billionaire.

558
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: Whatever it's about, I think it is worth us doing

559
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: an entire episode on George Soros because there are so

560
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: many current conspiracies surrounding him, that it would be worth

561
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: our time just to look into him and all his

562
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: various groups and see what we can discover.

563
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, people on, here's where it gets crazy. We're asking

564
00:33:58,600 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 6: for that as well.

565
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: So agreed. Okay, So that's like the big tents. That's

566
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: what you're most likely to hear about antifa conspiracies. And

567
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: it's not always Soros. We just think he's an excellent

568
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: example because he is so prevalent in these ideas. But

569
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: there are other antifa conspiracies out there, and some of

570
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: them might surprise you, I guess because first group the

571
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: anti antifa conspiracies, the anti anti fascist conspiray, I don't.

572
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: Know, yes, And to jump into these anti antifa conspiracies,

573
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: it would be really helpful if you could take your

574
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: mind back to the good old days of Batman. And

575
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: now when I say the good old days of Batman,

576
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: I mean just before Ben Affleck got involved.

577
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: So like.

578
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: Around the time of Batman begins in the Dark Knight,

579
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: there is specifically in the Dark Knight there is this

580
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: amazing scene where mikeel Kaine comes in and he says,

581
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 2: some men just want to watch world Bone And I

582
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: think he's right now, I'm just joking. I don't know

583
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: if he's right or not, but that is the accusation

584
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: of Antifa or groups calling themselves out or people identifying

585
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: themselves as that and wearing you know, shirts that have

586
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: it written on them that are usually black. But the

587
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: concept here is that, you know, the true motives behind

588
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: this group or people believing that is the abs It's

589
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: essentially chaos, but the absolute dissolution of any kind of government,

590
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 2: any kind of ruling faction that exists, and just bringing

591
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 2: us all back to zero. It kind of reminds me

592
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: of mister Robot in a way, like it reminds me

593
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: a bit of the F Society from from that show

594
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: and series.

595
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: Just occurred to me that maybe the F Society stands

596
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: for like F society.

597
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is very true. Yeah, well the problem here

598
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 2: is that they're not you know, people making this accuisation

599
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: aren't necessarily wrong, but they also aren't necessarily right either.

600
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: There's it's all of this stuff. It's such a great

601
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: area because there's probably some truth in that concept that

602
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: there are people who identify themselves as Antifa that would

603
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: like to see some of the major you know, governing

604
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: bodies and governments across the world just kind of having

605
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 2: to start over at least to some degree, right, I

606
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: mean there anarchists are real. Anarchists are probably at least

607
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: to an extent involved in Antifa gatherings, let's say, or

608
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: people who identify themselves as that. But how much or

609
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: how little like what that actual influence is. We just

610
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 2: have no idea. We honestly nobody has any idea.

611
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's true.

612
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: I mean it ties into the other, the other anti

613
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: antifa idea of subverting the rule of law. Right, Sometimes

614
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: it's a billionaire individual like Soros, Sometimes it's a group

615
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: accused of one world ordering the planet, like the CFR

616
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: or something. And then sometimes it's just plain old anarchists

617
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 1: want to see the world burn. This does tie d though,

618
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: with the other conspiracy of using well intentioned movements to

619
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: as a vehicle to push for a different, unrelated violent agenda.

620
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: This thing works, though, That's the problem with this one.

621
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: We know even the most cursory study of human history

622
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: shows that people are easily led and easily misled. So

623
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: this idea is that factions of Antifa, whatever their origins,

624
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: whatever their motivations may actually be, will infiltrate an otherwise

625
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: peaceful protests or movement and then try to push it

626
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: further and further toward radicalization and violence. Like you know,

627
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: like let's say, Nol, Matt, Alexis, and Paul are all

628
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: it at a prot test, a peaceful protest against the

629
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 1: closing of the local Applebee's, and then some other guy

630
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: that no one has met shows up and is like, yeah,

631
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: they should keep the apple bees open. As a matter

632
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: of fact, you know, if you think about it, we

633
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: should burn down the chilis next to the street, you know,

634
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: this the next street over. We're like, no, we're peaceful

635
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: apple Bee's people. They're like, yeah, well, you can't be

636
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: a peaceful Applebee's person if you're not also burning down

637
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: that Chili's.

638
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 3: Well, isn't this a lot of the same stuff we

639
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 3: covered in the Agent Provocateurs episode. I mean it really

640
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 3: they do kind of go hand in hand, the idea

641
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 3: of someone infiltrating a cause that has one particular aim

642
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: that could well be peaceful protests, and then trying to

643
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 3: kind of cause i don't know, cause division within those

644
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 3: ranks and try to convince people to lash out and

645
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 3: do violent things in the interest of either co opting

646
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: that movement or potentially even having the protest be shut down,

647
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 3: you know, to aid theirular you know, viewpoints, or you know,

648
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 3: would you say these things are related, Ben.

649
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, you know that's I would categorize that as

650
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: a left wing Antifa conspiracy. So that's the that's the

651
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 1: crazy part you'll hear about the right wing antifa conspiracies.

652
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: But you may be surprised to learn organizations that are political,

653
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: that are affiliated with the political left are often themselves

654
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: not automatically fans of what they consider antifa. Part of

655
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: that is the agent provocateur question. You know, we've covered

656
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 1: that in other episodes. But that's not a conspiracy theory.

657
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: That's an active conspiracy tactic. It happened before, it's maybe

658
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: happening now. In my opinion, it probably is happening now,

659
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: and it will definitely happen in the future. Uh. We

660
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: know also that left a lot of left wing institutions, movements,

661
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: and groups have a huge problem with antifa direct action

662
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: and they say that this this action, violent action, whatever

663
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: the motivation or intention on the part of protesters, creates

664
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: more problems than it solves.

665
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 3: So what makes antifa in particular different from other movements.

666
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 3: We'll talk more about that after a quick break, and

667
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 3: we're back with the question what makes antifa different? Why

668
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: is it so special? Why is it popping up now

669
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 3: more than in the past. And we've discussed that it's

670
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 3: historically been a thing for for a while. There are

671
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: some purported crimes of the Antifa movement, or you know,

672
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 3: the multiple movements that exist under this kind of umbrella.

673
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 3: One of them is something called black block tactics.

674
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you're talking about black block, this is

675
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: something you've undoubtedly heard about or seen videos of somewhere,

676
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: if not on live leaks than in other places. Generally speaking,

677
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: you would describe a black block that's bloc as a

678
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 2: group that deploys some kind of violent tactic in you know,

679
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: one form or another during a protest that is occurring

680
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: for another completely other reason or you know, an individual

681
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: reason for that protest, the black block would be there independently,

682
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 2: right and they would be doing things like we've seen vandalism,

683
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,959
Speaker 2: destruction of some kind of property occurring, you know, while

684
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: the protest is going on. A lot of times a

685
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: group that we would call a black block would be

686
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 2: targeting sites of significance to probably the economy. That's a

687
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 2: very popular one to government. You know, any kind of

688
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 2: building like a city hall or something, a bank, headquarters

689
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 2: of a large corporation, there would be what would be

690
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: considered or described as rioting. They would, you know, do something.

691
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 2: This one's a little lighter fair, but you know, demonstrating

692
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 2: without a permit or outside of a free speech zone.

693
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: I think that's an important one. When we were what

694
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: is in Chile in Santiago, we saw a lot of

695
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: kind of black block things, but they were escalating in

696
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: step with the police, you know, and a lot of

697
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: South and Central America has heavily militarized police forces. But

698
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: calling and demonstrating illegally it sounds like a small thing,

699
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: but if you withdraw the legal means to demonstrate, then

700
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: every demonstration is illegal. I think there's some tricky things

701
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: that legal authorities can do there.

702
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 3: Well.

703
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even the act of demonstrating you are knowingly

704
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: bringing about a police response, right, so if it if

705
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: it's not legal to do that, you know that's going

706
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 2: to happen. So then essentially a group like this would

707
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: or functioning as this would prepare they preferre defenses essentially

708
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 2: you know, barricades. They would encourage others to come out,

709
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 2: you know, with them and do the same thing. They

710
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: would provide perhaps weaponry or other equipment for others, as

711
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 2: well as providing medical care on site for anybody who's

712
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 2: injured in their efforts.

713
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 3: So why are they called this why Black blocks bloc?

714
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 3: By the way, they are known for really leaning heavily

715
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 3: on remaining anonymous, wearing black clothes, covering their face, and

716
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 3: identifying marks like tattoos. That being said, though, these are

717
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 3: all things that are any protesters are going to be

718
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 3: doing now a lot of especially with the pandemic, it

719
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: can be a lot harder to differentiate these groups. And

720
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 3: we in our episode about protesting one oh one, we

721
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 3: made it pretty clear that it's a good idea to

722
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 3: cover any identifying marks, et cetera. But here's the thing

723
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 3: moving in a unified mass, the being they can't get

724
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 3: us all. And that's true of any kind of I

725
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 3: don't know, I don't want to characterize this as like a

726
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 3: gang or any kind of thing like that. That's not

727
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 3: the same thing. But that is a tactic that folks

728
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 3: that are saying like motorcycle gangs would employ they ride

729
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 3: in a group because you can't chase down everybody. You

730
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: think people can divide and conquer and split and just

731
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: kind of cause the authorities to be overwhelmed.

732
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's still sort of the case, right, That

733
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 1: sort of works for any I mean, that's the reason

734
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: why if you want to get away with a robbery

735
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: of a small business, you go in with twenty people

736
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: and you move out fast. There is a power in numbers.

737
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: It's an arguable, but it might not always make you anonymous.

738
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: In the future, the surveillance state has been expanding. We've

739
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 1: been in a massive expansion this phase of that since

740
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: post nine to eleven. It hasn't stopped since. Pretty in

741
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: the future, it's conceivable that it doesn't matter what you

742
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: wear or where you leave your phone, authorities will be

743
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: able to find you or at least make a plausible

744
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: case against you and then proceed from there. Probably another

745
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: tactic that differentiates Antifa in the mind of the mainstream

746
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: media is property damage. It and it can feel pretty

747
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,479
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know about anybody else again speak

748
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: for anybody else, but it feels a little off and

749
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: pretty cold when you're seeing protests about massive injustices and

750
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 1: loss of human life. And then the first thing someone

751
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: in authority says about it is like, we have to

752
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: protect the corporate building, you know what I mean? Like,

753
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: what what is the hierarchy? Where do where do people

754
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: stand in relation to property? It's an ongoing argument in

755
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: this country. So the idea here is that antifa is

756
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: different from a lot of other protests groups or ideologies

757
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: because purposeful physical violence is in place somehow. So in

758
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, Active is self identifying as Antifa or Black Block.

759
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 6: We're accused of throwing.

760
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: Molotov cocktails causing one hundred thousand dollars worth of damage

761
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: in the Berkeley protest February seventeenth, twenty seventeen. So that's

762
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: like one example. You can find a bunch of other

763
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: examples as as well, and they're often What's weird about

764
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 1: this is a lot of the accusations of violence against

765
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: people or against property on the side of protesters is

766
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: leveled at antifah when it's when people calling themselves Antifa

767
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 1: show up as counter protesters to write wing events, you know,

768
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: unit the ride or like a I don't know what

769
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: I making up a plausible title in my head would

770
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: be like freedom rally, I don't know, sort of like.

771
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 3: In movies that don't have a lot of budget, where

772
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 3: you see products and it's like a jug of milk

773
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 3: that just says milk, you know, or like a thing

774
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 3: of juice that just says orange juice.

775
00:46:58,600 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 2: Nice.

776
00:46:59,280 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 3: It's like that.

777
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: But the thing here, though, that's interesting is that proponents

778
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: of Antifa, their supporters or people who say, you know,

779
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: they identify with this or related movements, they'll argue that

780
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 1: the media is misleading people that what is characterized as

781
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: purposeful violence is often instead self defense. And this is

782
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: something you brought up, Matt, that I think is a

783
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 1: very very interesting thought that doesn't get addressed often enough.

784
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure. And it goes back to the nineteen

785
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 2: thirties again, this time instead of in Germany, in Britain,

786
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 2: and they had their own anti fascist movement there Antifa

787
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: when there was a group gaining in popularity, a political

788
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: group gaining popularity. They were known as British Union of Fascists,

789
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: at least according to reporting done by Vox and around

790
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 2: that time, in nineteen thirty six, this group was attempting

791
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 2: to have a large parade. Okay, this is place called

792
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: Cable Street in London there and what this group did,

793
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: the British anti fascist group did was actually throw homemade

794
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 2: bombs and bricks and other weapons at this group attempting

795
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,959
Speaker 2: to have a parade down the street to the point

796
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 2: where they had to leave. The whole point here was

797
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 2: to preemptively attack them in self defense, and which sounds crazy,

798
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 2: but the reasoning here is to defend against the possibility

799
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 2: that a fascist group would eventually come to power, right,

800
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 2: so they're defending themselves now for what the future would

801
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 2: hold if this group came to power. It's it's logically difficult,

802
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: but imagine if you could have done that prior to

803
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 2: the Nazis getting to power, and you did it effectively

804
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 2: enough where the Nazi just had to go home and

805
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 2: be sad.

806
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, but but that's the time travel question. You don't

807
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: know what happens because you're changing the timeline and history

808
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: is obdurate. History doesn't always hinge on one person. Guarantee

809
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: you if you go back in time in that era

810
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: of Germany, pre rise of Nazi power and Adolf Hitler,

811
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: and you kill Aidolf Hitler as a child, there will

812
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: probably still be a Nazi party there will just be

813
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 1: a different lunatic making speeches and you'll be locked up

814
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: because you went back in time. And as far as

815
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: they can tell, you just killed a baby.

816
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 6: That's it.

817
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,439
Speaker 2: You're not a hero. Yeah, well, you know, it does

818
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: go back to the United States campaign of preemptive strikes

819
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 2: against a lot of countries in the Middle East that

820
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: were occurring in the early two thousands, like they might

821
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 2: attack us someday. Yeah, it's weird because I think anybody

822
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 2: listening with a critical enough mind can see both sides

823
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 2: of that. I think you can see the concept of

824
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 2: wanting to protect yourself against a group that may arise

825
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 2: to power that would be very dangerous at least that

826
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: you believe personally that would be very dangerous, and also

827
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 2: that you're not You can't predict the future.

828
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 3: That's man.

829
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 2: It is just okay, it's a it's a complicated process

830
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: of thinking through.

831
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: Well, let's look at it from another side too. I

832
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: think this is a tremendously important thought. So let's flip

833
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: flip it a little bit, flip the narrative and say

834
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: what if in the halls of power? The argument is, look,

835
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: we're playing fast and loose with the Constitution. We're cutting

836
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: some corners because we are preemptively defending the country because

837
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: Antifa may be you know, primarily known as protesting groups now,

838
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: but we think they're going to be terrorists. That's not

839
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: just the thought experiment that's litter early. What's what's happening

840
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: or what's what's kind of in the mix in the

841
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: in the dirty, dirty cauldrid known as Twitter.

842
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 3: Well, and that's sort of where we get to the

843
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 3: point we are in terms of the rhetoric surrounding Antifa

844
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 3: and the way it's used to label folks that may have,

845
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 3: may have nothing to do with it, may not identify

846
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 3: as it, or even align with any of these concepts,

847
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 3: but it's something that the President has used quite effectively

848
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 3: to label folks who disagree with him or his policies

849
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 3: or with protests, to to kind of you know, malign

850
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 3: or in some way diminish the idea of a peaceful

851
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 3: protest or the idea of the cause that a protests

852
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 3: might represent. By labeling folks as Antifa and consequently labeling

853
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 3: Antifa as a terrorist organization, this is something that he

854
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 3: has pushed for. In June, he tweeted the something to

855
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 3: that effect and this is absolutely in line with the

856
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 3: administration and the Justice Department's ongoing argument that antiphok groups

857
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 3: are the source of violence in all recent protests. And

858
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 3: yet if you've been paying attention, it's not one thing.

859
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 3: So it's that absolute leaning into this kind of bundling

860
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 3: up of labeling this, you know, multiple kind of splintered

861
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 3: groups into as one thing, all of which must be

862
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 3: about the exact same thing, which is violence, disruption, agitating,

863
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 3: and you know, just basically characterizing it as being against

864
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 3: the rule of law.

865
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course, you know, anyone can have any

866
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: intention they want at any time, just like an opinion.

867
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 1: But when it comes to the law, there are tricky

868
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: things there. The US doesn't really have the legal mechanism

869
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: to do what the current administration wants to have done.

870
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: The US government only formally designates foreign groups as terrorist

871
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 1: organizations or ftos, and that means the actions have to

872
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 1: be taken internationally through a larger organization. Right, the Soros

873
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: theory would have to be real and Antifa or people

874
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: identifying as that. To your point, Matt, they do exist

875
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: in other countries. It's not an American enterprise. It started

876
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: in Europe. But those folks are acting autonomously. They just

877
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: sort of agree that they would like to use the

878
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: same methods. So it doesn't seem like that meets the

879
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: requirements for the State Department to label it a terrorist organization.

880
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: But again, what's in a name, what's in a designation?

881
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: Federal law enforcement already uses domestic terrorism categories to organize

882
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: and describe cases right where they bring up the name

883
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: or the phrase antifah, And then there are already a

884
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: host of anti terrorism laws that authorities can use against

885
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 1: what are called domestic extremists. So we get we really

886
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: quickly fall into legalese here, But as we know, in

887
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: a post nine to eleven world, that kind of kind

888
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: of legalese is too often words and wind, you know

889
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: what I mean, and the practice, the practice can be

890
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 1: very very different. On the ground, we should say, of course,

891
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 1: that people who identify as anarchists and activists using these

892
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 1: tactics disagree, surprise, surprise, with the administration's claims. They say

893
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 1: there's not any evidence. And then some other people say, well,

894
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: shouldn't you consider designating far right extremist groups terrorists?

895
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 6: As well?

896
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 3: Fair question? Yeah, I mean, remember when the FBI tried

897
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 3: to label Juggalos as a terrorist organization.

898
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 6: Oh I thought it was just a gang.

899
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. Sorry, my potato, patato. No, they're very different.

900
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 3: But no, you're absolutely right. It does point to a

901
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 3: political motive. One cannot, at least at the very least,

902
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 3: it's hard to argue with that.

903
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: It is weird that the Anti Defamation League actually had

904
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 2: some information on this, and their findings were that well,

905
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 2: well over seventy percent of murders that would be considered

906
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 2: extremist essentially that have occurred within the United States were

907
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,919
Speaker 2: committed by groups that they would describe as far right

908
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: or a white supremacist. That's pretty interesting. Seventy percent of

909
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: those at least according to the Anti Defamation League. And

910
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: you know, as you can probably imagine, if you don't

911
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 2: believe that statistic, if you don't agree with a group

912
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 2: or organization like the Anti Defamation League, you probably disagree

913
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 2: with that statement, right or do you believe it's the opposite.

914
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 2: A lot of this ends up coming down to belief, unfortunately,

915
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 2: So what has the government itself done in response to

916
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: these concepts about antifa and the rumors and conspiracies that

917
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 2: have been roiling up around them.

918
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: Things fall apart, the center cannot hold, you know what

919
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: I mean. The problem is that there's not a unified

920
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: response the US. The current US administration maintains a view

921
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: that ANTIFAJ should be considered a terrorist group and subject

922
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: to the considerations that definition includes. But Mark Bray, the

923
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 1: author you mentioned at the top. Matt says that this

924
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 1: is an attempt to control the conversation and shift it

925
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: away from what he describes as widespread socioeconomic discontent in

926
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: the US, which you know, goes across all levels. We're

927
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 1: being honest, and there's not like one group of people.

928
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: There's not one large group of people that's super happy, right,

929
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: And he says that there's a mathematical problem here. He

930
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: believes that there are literally not enough members of various

931
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: ANTIFAG groups out there to be doing all the stuff

932
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: that the DOJ, by the way, and the administration are

933
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: claiming that they have done. So yeah, and then you'll

934
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: see other of course, the ideas in municipal, regional level governments,

935
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: state level governments may differ. Your individual mileage may vary.

936
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 1: That's the problem. There was a report by a national

937
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: counter terrorism unit in January of twenty twenty I want

938
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 1: to say that found the same thing they were, Like,

939
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: no one's on the same page about this.

940
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 6: We have these serious gaps.

941
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if we can go out and call

942
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: a group terrorist and just keep changing the definition of

943
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: what terrorism is or what that group is until we

944
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: get it to work, because.

945
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 6: That's a little bit like, well, far be it for

946
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 6: me to say the.

947
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 3: F word fascism?

948
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, it's a little bit right to like, Look,

949
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 7: we all love improvisation, love improv yes, and is such

950
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 7: a such a beautiful panacea balm?

951
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 6: But does improvisation belong in these kind of things?

952
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: Does it belong in government?

953
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 6: I don't know.

954
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's true. But there's definitely

955
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 3: a lot of things that don't belong in government, but

956
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 3: we see them every day, and improvisations certainly become a

957
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 3: big one.

958
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: Yes, And this is an ongoing story. Sorry I'm not above,

959
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 1: but this is an ongoing story because right now, if

960
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: this would if this perspective was pushed through and this

961
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: designation became closer to being a reality, no one really

962
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: knows what would happen. We haven't been to that like

963
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: part of constitutional argument.

964
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 3: Yet.

965
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: Constitutional scholars are the majority of them are like, Okay,

966
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: this would be illegal, but no one can No one

967
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: has one hundred percent proof about that.

968
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 6: Like we, it would be an argument.

969
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:24,919
Speaker 1: And while it was being an argument, you can bet

970
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 1: your bottom dollar that forces on the ground would just

971
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: act like, you know, the argument have been decided in

972
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: whichever way they wish, whatever that way might be, And

973
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: that's where we're at. We tried on this one to

974
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: give an objective view of antifought and the conspiracies and

975
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: the differing narratives about it, and also the huge again,

976
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: the huge, the tremendous problems with definitions. If I start

977
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: calling people pop farts and the definition of a pop

978
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: fart is that I think you're a pop fart, then

979
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 1: it just depends on what kind of day I'm ating

980
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: right as to whether or not you were prosecuted as

981
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: a pop fart.

982
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 3: That's just yeah.

983
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 2: Best pop farts out there are definitely strawberry frosted, just

984
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 2: so everybody's aware.

985
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 3: I like the cinnamon sugar ones myself. I can't stand them, really, Okay,

986
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 3: I guess, uh, I guess we're on two sides of

987
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 3: the pop part divide here. My friend, I'm a Smores guy.

988
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 3: I like the Spores Ones two. No, I like this

989
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 3: Smores one too, because they've got the Graham cracker or

990
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 3: kind of crust you know that really sets them apart.

991
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 3: But it's the same as like, you know, this labeling

992
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 3: thing is something that we see too in in in

993
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 3: political rhetoric, where people are given kind of insulting nicknames

994
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 3: and it starts to kind of sink into the public

995
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 3: con when you repeat something enough. Our brains tend to

996
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 3: bucket things in those ways that you were talking about.

997
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 3: Then at the top of the show, our brains look

998
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 3: for patterns, and that could be something as simple as saying,

999
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 3: you know, farty binn Bolan, but before you know it,

1000
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 3: people think Ben Bollen's got a flatulence problem. I'm sorry,

1001
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 3: I'm just sticking with the fart thing here, you know.

1002
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 3: But it's it's true, and the words are very powerful

1003
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 3: and Antifa because it's such a pithy, little brand name

1004
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 3: sounding thing. It's something that's very easy to lump folks into,

1005
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 3: even if you don't really know what it is, which

1006
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 3: a lot of people don't seem to.

1007
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 2: So we would love to know your opinion about all

1008
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 2: of this. Are you extremely anti antifa or are you

1009
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: down with whatever that cause represents?

1010
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: You know?

1011
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 2: According to you, are you like Chandler, We're a steck

1012
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 2: of Charlotte, North Carolina, who, according to the intercept, wrote

1013
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 2: wrote a message to the FBI and was all like, hey,

1014
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 2: I lead Antifa over here in Charlotte.

1015
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 3: What's up?

1016
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 2: And then they totally came out to his house to

1017
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 2: have a little chat with him. Read the intercept. By

1018
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 2: the way, that story is called, he tweeted that he

1019
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: was the leader of Antifa. Then the FBI asked him

1020
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 2: to be an informant. It's fantastic, but you know, how really,

1021
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 2: how do you feel about this? What do you think

1022
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 2: about it? We would love to know your opinion, especially

1023
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 2: if you identify as Antifa or you are part of

1024
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 2: a group that would consider themselves Antifa. We'd love to

1025
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 2: hear from you and just know your story. You can

1026
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 2: contact us anonymously, by the way, if you wish to

1027
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 2: do that through an email or through a phone call

1028
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 2: that you can just you can talk to us if

1029
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 2: you're worried about your own safety or privacy.

1030
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 6: Right yeah.

1031
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: Also, while you're at it, what's your where are you

1032
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 1: at with this whole pop tart pop fart thing. You know,

1033
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 1: we want your opinions. You are the most important part

1034
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: of this show and this has nothing to do with anything.

1035
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: But I don't know about you all. I'm curious. Why

1036
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 1: is it normal in the US the candy for breakfast?

1037
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 6: Let us know.

1038
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 1: Let us know about the antifas stuff first. That should

1039
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:08,919
Speaker 1: be the priority you can get in com.

1040
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 2: People should be eating bacon, right, just bacon.

1041
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 6: Just bacon, you know it. Let us know.

1042
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 1: You can find us in so many ways. As Matt said,

1043
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 1: you can find us on Facebook. You can find us

1044
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:24,959
Speaker 1: on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter. Of the three,

1045
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: we highly recommend our Facebook community page. Here's where it

1046
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 1: gets crazy. You can also find us as individuals online.

1047
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you'd like to do so. You can find

1048
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 3: me on Instagram. I am at how now, Noel Brown.

1049
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 2: If you want to know my Instagram handle and your upset,

1050
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 2: you're gonna have to listen to another episode of Stuff

1051
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 2: they don't want you to know to figure out my handle.

1052
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 3: Well played, Matt, Wait, hold the audience hostage, my man.

1053
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: Oh, the master at work, changing the rules as we go.

1054
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 6: Doing a chef kiss for you man.

1055
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, you can also so I've been building out

1056
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:03,919
Speaker 1: some survival kits for friends and families. You can watch

1057
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: a little bit more of that at Ben Bolan on Instagram.

1058
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 1: You can also find me on Twitter at Ben Bolan HSW.

1059
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: But I hate social media, you might be saying, we

1060
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 1: of all people get it. If you have a message

1061
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: you'd still like to relate to us, we have a

1062
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: phone number you can call.

1063
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 3: That's right. You can reach us at one eight three

1064
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 3: three STDWYTK. Leave a message at the sound of Ben's

1065
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 3: dulcet tone, and I think they're what three and a

1066
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 3: half minutes is ish apiece, So you know, try to

1067
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 3: be brief if you can, but feel free to leave

1068
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 3: a couple if you need to continue the story. And

1069
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 3: now we've got a weekly outlet for these wonderful messages

1070
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 3: from you the most important part of the show, So

1071
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:43,919
Speaker 3: bring them on and you might hear yourself with the show.

1072
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 3: Please be sure to let us know if you want

1073
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 3: to remain anonymous, if you want us to take your

1074
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 3: name out entirely. We've been taking last names out just

1075
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 3: to standard operating procedure, but just let us know if

1076
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 3: you want what level of anonymity you wish, and we.

1077
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 2: Will honor that, and just as a counterpoint, the shorter

1078
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 2: and sweeter you make your message, no matter if it's

1079
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 2: a suggestion or comment or whatever, the better, because honestly,

1080
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 2: we're still in the midst of June messages right now,

1081
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 2: trying to make our way through, so hopefully very soon

1082
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 2: we will catch up.

1083
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 3: But it's a relatively good problem to have. These are

1084
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 3: these are really great stories, and we're finally at a

1085
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 3: place where we can actually kind of push some of

1086
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 3: those out for all of you to hear. I'm personally

1087
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 3: excited about it. Me too.

1088
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 2: I think we're all excited. Just shorter and sweeter could

1089
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 2: be better if you wanted to, if you wanted to.

1090
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 2: If you don't want to do any of that stuff,

1091
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 2: but you still want to contact us, you can always

1092
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 2: reach us at our good old fashioned email.

1093
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 5: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1094
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1095
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1096
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.