1 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Saber Productive I Heeart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Annie Reese and I'm Lauren vocal Baum and today we 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: have an episode for you about Alice in Wonderland. Yes, 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: and this episode is a long time coming, Oh my goodness. Yeah. 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: So I think in the summer of we were like, 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: oh man, it's been a long time since we've done 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: a a reading on the show and talked about a 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: work of fiction in that way that has to do 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: with food. And we were like, oh, Alice in Wonderland, 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: we should totally do that. We should totally do the 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: Mad Tea Party reading and talk about the books. And 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: it's October one now. Yeah, And we started the outline. 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: We were just I've seen this before. We started the 14 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,639 Speaker 1: outline when we had the like you know, impetus when summer. 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: So like some of this we wrote year over a 16 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: year ago at least yep, most of it, I would say. 17 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: So it was fun. It was a fun trip down 18 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: memory lane, going back and going did I write that? 19 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: Did you write that? Who wrote this? It could have 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: been anybody, Yep, exactly, But it's we love doing these 21 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: um as always. We got to work with some of 22 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: our fantastic colleagues. Yes, I had a really fun recording 23 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: session altogether over but it was so fun. Yeah. This 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: was the first time since uh Goblin Market that we've 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: had a chance to all. I mean, I'll be at 26 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: a digital room, but I'll sit together in a room 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: all at the same time and do a full cast recording. 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: Um so I. As of right now, super producer Andrew 29 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: has has not uh contacted us about any pickups. I 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: feel like I'm going to have some because I was 31 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: so delighted by all of y'all's performances that as the narrator, 32 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: like I had to pick up where you left off 33 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: and sometimes I would still be laughing. Yeah, it was. 34 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: It was great. I mean, um, I played Alice and 35 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: I just got really into the role. And I got 36 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: really annoyed with a certain Ben Bowling who's playing the 37 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: Mad Hatter, because he was always like teasing me, pushy, 38 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: like wouldn't you just let me be I it? That's great? 39 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, are um so so so right. So, 40 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: so we're gonna talk a little bit about about Lewis 41 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: Carroll and uh and how the book came about, and 42 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: then we're gonna do a reading of the Mad tea 43 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: party chapter and then we're going to come back and 44 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: discuss a little bit more about the impact of the book, 45 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: um and all of that fun stuff and uh, yes, 46 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: but but you do have to look forward to um 47 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: in our reading, right, Annie Reese as as Alice, ben 48 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: Bolin as the Mad Hatter, super producer, Dylan Fagin as 49 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: the march Hare and uh not not a saver super 50 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: producer but a friend of the show and uh, super 51 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: producer around I heart at large, Randa Hawkins as the Dormouse. Um, 52 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: and I'm narrating, and we all have we all just 53 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: had a real nice time doing it. We did. It 54 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: was a real to like, um, everybody brought their a game, 55 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: for sure, they did. Yes, so you have that to 56 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: look forward to. UM. I will say, for me, I 57 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: have read the books, but only like once. Maybe UM version, 58 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: the Disney version of Alice and Wonder really scared the 59 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: hell out of me, is it? And I rewatched it 60 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: for this and I thought it was really funny, laughing 61 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: out loud, that's really Oh. I'm so glad. I'm so 62 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: glad you rewatched it because I feel like this has 63 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: been like a little bit of a shadow over you 64 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: for a while like it found you sounded so frightening 65 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: as a child, I did it terrified me. That caterpillar 66 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: terrified me. The whole oyster thing, Oh my goodness, oh 67 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: off with her head the red color freaked me, like 68 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: I can still remember. But I did enjoy it rewatching 69 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: it and it did make me laugh. Um once, seeing 70 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: in particular made me really laugh. But I also when 71 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: we did the reading, I dug up this old T 72 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: shirt that I won that has the Mad Hatter on it. 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: I believe it was from Mellow Mushroom. Oh my goodness, 74 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: but I want it for for an acting role I 75 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: did in a vampire horror short called Insatiable, which I 76 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: think I've talked about before, but it's one of my 77 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: best trophies. Yes, and I love the sculpture in Central Park. 78 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: The sculpture. Yeah, I I I probably read the books. 79 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: I've probably read the books. Um, I would say upwards 80 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: of a dozen times, probably more like two dozen plus 81 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: times over the course of my life. I was really 82 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: into them as a kid. Um. They were pretty formative 83 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: for me in terms of like of like humor and surrealism, 84 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: um and uh in language. So yeah. Also yeah, so 85 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: I was I reread them again, like a year ago 86 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: when we first started talking about this, and the first 87 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: book talks so much about food, like all of the food, 88 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: all the time. UM. So I am so glad that 89 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: we're getting to do this one as a as a 90 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: food fairy tale. It's not exactly a fairy tale, but 91 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: it's pretty close. It's pretty close. It's within within within 92 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: the genre, I would say. So it's got a lot 93 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: of similar Yeah. Yeah, well, I guess that brings us 94 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: to our question. Sure, Alice in Wonderland, what is it? Well? Um, 95 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass and 96 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: What Alice Found There are two short children's novels about 97 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: a girl named Alice who has some real wacky adventures 98 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: um which may or may not be dreams um, involving 99 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: fantastic anthropomorphic animals and snarky plants and strange royals, game 100 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: of chest the size of a whole kingdom uh, and 101 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: food and drink that are not always what they seem. 102 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: They were written by pen name Lewis Carroll, which is 103 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: the most widely known pseudonym for Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, who 104 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: published Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Eat sixty five when 105 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: he was thirty three years old. Dodgson was born in 106 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty two, the third of eleven children of his 107 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: mother Francis Jane Lutwidge, and his father Charles Dodgson, UM, 108 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: who was the archdeacon of a small parish of Darrisbury, 109 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: which is a village near Liverpool in northern England. And 110 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: Uh Dodgson started writing as a child. At the age 111 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: of thirteen he put out a family magazine. And family 112 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: magazines are this fascinating bit of Victorian middle class ephemera. Um. 113 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: They were generally these these handwritten and hand illustrated booklets 114 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: or periodicals created by well off kids and young adults 115 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: to entertain themselves and their siblings. And so even at 116 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: that age he was writing a lot and would produce 117 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: just a bunch of magazines like this over the next 118 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: few years, with stuff like poetry about the frustrating restrictions 119 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: and expectations of society. There were some biological essays about 120 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: fairies in their very very Lewis Carrolly kind of stuff. UM. 121 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: A teacher of his one Mr Tate, apparently once told 122 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: Dodgson's father that he was given to quote creativity in 123 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: replacing the inflections of nouns and verbs as detailed in 124 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: our grammars um, which apparently Mr Tate assured the father 125 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: that that Dodgson would outgrow m I. I don't think no, 126 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: I don't think that's what happened neither. He would go 127 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: to school at Christ Church, Oxford UM, and in eighteen 128 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: fifty one he had the opportunity to visit the first 129 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: World's Fair in London UM called the Great Exhibition. It 130 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: was this international celebration of industry and science and art 131 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: and design. Around the same time he became deeply interested 132 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: in photography. He had received a Master of Arts in 133 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty seven and become a member of the clergy 134 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty one, a deacon UM, and made his 135 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: living lecturing UM, tutoring and writing UM, both in literature 136 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: and mathematics. He would write eleven books on mathematics over 137 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: the course of his career, starting in eighteen sixty He 138 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: never became a priest, which was unusual for that that 139 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: that place and time and career path UM. He apparently 140 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: petitioned the Dean to remain a deacon. Historians think that 141 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: he didn't agree with with some of the church doctrine 142 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: at the time, although he was himself deeply religious. Um, 143 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: he was just a bit more progressive, perhaps than than 144 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: the church was. Like. He really liked going to the 145 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: theater sandalusius um and uh, and he embraced some like 146 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: broader ideas of salvation than we're really being preached at 147 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: the time. As a human person, he said to have 148 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: been self effacing. Um. He had a stutter and was 149 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: deaf in one ear and had this persistent difficulty with 150 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: lung capacity from having had whooping cough as a teen. 151 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: But his story and seemed to think that he was 152 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: um like private more than particularly shy. Uh. He never married, 153 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: which was required of clergy at christ Church at the time, 154 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: and he did not like publishing under his own name, 155 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: even as a kid in family magazines. He used pseudonyms. Um. 156 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: The first publication under Lewis Carroll was in eighteen fifty six, 157 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: attached to a dramatic poem, and supposedly he got the 158 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: name by translating his name's um Lutwidge and Charles into 159 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: Latin and then back into English. Uh. Interesting, Yeah, Lutwidge 160 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: Charles Lewis Carroll. Yeah, m okay, well, I too wanted 161 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: to publish under a pen name, and it was well, 162 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: I had August Wind my fan fiction name, of course, 163 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: of course, but then I wanted to go with plumb Pickens. 164 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: And I don't know why what I thought I could 165 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: pull off with plum Pickens, but me neither. I mean, 166 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: I find it delightful, though I feel like it's a 167 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: very plump Pickens sounds like a children's auf there, which 168 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's fine, but that wasn't what I was 169 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: intending to write. So uh huh, yeah, like that's a 170 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 1: very like like like like like Lemony Snicket, kind of 171 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: along those lines. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to remember my friend. 172 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: My friend had a similar pen name. We were all 173 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: like fruit based. Um. But yeah, mine with plump Pickens 174 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: not as official sounding as Lewis Carol. You know, it 175 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: depends on what kind of office you're running for. I 176 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: suppose that's true. Um, well, Lauren, what about the plot 177 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: of these books? Is there is there a plot? Um? 178 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: I guess, I guess um in in the first book, 179 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: Alice in Wonderland or Alice's Adventures in Wonderland more properly. 180 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: You're dealing with the main character, Alice, who is a 181 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: young girl who falls down a rabbit hole and finds 182 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of weird stuff. There's this garden that she 183 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: wants to get into, and eventually she gets into it, 184 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: and then she doesn't get beheaded, and then it might 185 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: have all been a dream spoilers, Um, okay. And then 186 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: in the second book, uh, she's hanging out with her 187 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: cat and decides to climb through a mirror and then 188 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: she plays like a really big game of chess and 189 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: becomes a queen. And then it might have been a dream. 190 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: But was it her dream or was it the cat's 191 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: dream twists? I'm into that. Yeah, the cat in question, 192 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: Dinah just does not respond to this line of questioning, 193 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 1: so suspicious perhaps picking up what you're putting down. If 194 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: if this doesn't sound like it makes a lot of sense, 195 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't, that's not really the point. Um, be go 196 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: out and read them or find a filmic translation of them, 197 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: or yeah, they're they're they're fun. Um, they are They're 198 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: meant to be fun, Which is kind of, or was 199 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: at the time, kind of a departure from a lot 200 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: of children's literature like most kids books at the time, 201 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm we're instructive, not fun, right, and this was one 202 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: of the early breaks in that, right. So but um, 203 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: but we're going to get into all of that, um, 204 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: how the book itself came about, and how it was 205 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: received after we read a little bit of the book 206 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: for you. Yes, yes, yes, yes, But before we get 207 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: into that, which I'm telling you it's going to be great, 208 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna get into a quick break for a word 209 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you, sponsored, Yes, 210 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: thank you, And we are back with our reading of 211 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: the Mad Tea Party, chapter from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. 212 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: There was a table set out under a tree in 213 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: front of the house, and the march Hare and the 214 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: Hatter we're having tea at it. A dormouse was sitting 215 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: between them, fast asleep, and the other two were using 216 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: it as a cushion, resting their elbows on it and 217 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: talking over its head. Very uncomfortable for the dormouse, thought Alice. 218 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: Only as it's asleep, I suppose it doesn't mind. The 219 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: table was a large one, but the three were all 220 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: crowded together at one corner of it. No room, No room, 221 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: they cried out when they saw Alice coming. There's plenty 222 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: of room, said Alice indignantly, and she sat down in 223 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: a large armchair at one end of the table. Have 224 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: some wine, the march hare said, in an encouraging tone. 225 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: Alice looked all around the table, but there was nothing 226 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: on it. But t I don't see any wine, she remarked. 227 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: There isn't any, said the march Hare. And it wasn't 228 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: very civil of you to offer it, said Alice angrily. 229 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't very civil of you to sit down without 230 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: being invited, said the march Hare. I didn't know it 231 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: was your table, said Alice. It's slate for a great 232 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: many more than three. Your hair wants cotton, said the hatter. 233 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: He had been looking at Alice for some time with 234 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: great curiosity, and this was his first speech. You should 235 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: learn not to make personal remarks, Alice said, with some severity. 236 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: It's very rude. The hatter opened his eyes very wide 237 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: on hearing this, but all he said was why he's 238 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: a raving like a writing desk. Come we shall have 239 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: some fun now, thought Alice. I'm glad they've begun asking riddles. 240 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: I believe I can guess that, She added aloud. Do 241 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: you mean you think you can find out the answer 242 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: to it, said the march Hare. Exactly so, said Alice. 243 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: Then you should say what you mean. The march Hare 244 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: went on, I do, Alice hastily replied, at least at 245 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: least I mean what I say. That's the same thing, 246 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, not the same thing a bit. You might 247 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: just as well say that I see what I eat 248 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: is the same thing as I eat what I see. 249 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: You might just as well say, added the march Hare, 250 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: that I like what I get is the same thing 251 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: as I get what I like. You might as well, 252 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: jess say, added the dormouse, who seemed to be talking 253 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: in his sleep. As I breathe when I sleep is 254 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: the same thing as I sleep when I breathe where 255 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: it is the same thing with you, said the hatter. 256 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: And here the conversation dropped, and the party sat silent 257 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: for a minute while Alice thought over all she could 258 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: remember about ravens and writing desks, which wasn't much. The 259 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: hatter was the first to break the silence. What day 260 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 1: of the month is it? He said, turning to Alice. 261 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: He had taken his watch out of his pocket and 262 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: was looking at it uneasily, shaking it every now and 263 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: then and holding it to his ear. Alice considered a 264 00:17:55,560 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: little and then said, the fourth to day's wrong, sighed 265 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: the hatter. I told you, but a footn't suit the works, 266 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: he added, looking angrily at the march Hare. It was 267 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: the best butter in The march Hare meekly replied, yes, 268 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: but some crumbs must have got in his well. The 269 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: hatter grumbled, you shouldn't have put it in. He's the 270 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: bread knife, and the march Hare took the watch and 271 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: looked at it gloomily. Then he dipped it into his 272 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: cup of tea and looked at it again. But he 273 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: could think of nothing better to say than his first remark. 274 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: It was the best butter, you know. Alice had been 275 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: looking over his shoulder with some curiosity. What a funny watch, 276 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: she remarked. It tells the day of the month and 277 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: doesn't tell what a clock it is. Of why I 278 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: showed it, and muttered, the hatter, does your watch tell 279 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: you what year it is? Of course not, Alice replied 280 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: very readily, But that's because it stays the same year 281 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: for such a long time together, which is just the 282 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: case with mine, said the hatter. Alice felt dreadfully puzzled. 283 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: The hatter's remarks seemed to have no sort of meaning 284 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: in it, and yet it was certainly English. I don't 285 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: quite understand you, she said, as politely as she could. Well, 286 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: the dormouse is asleep again, said the hatter, and he 287 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: poured a little hot tea upon its nose. The dormouse 288 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: shook its head impatiently and said, without opening its eyes. 289 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: Of course, of course, just what I was going to 290 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: remark myself. Have you guessed the riddle yet, the hatter said, 291 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: turning to Alice again, No, I give it up. Alice replied, 292 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: what's the answer? I haven't the slightest idea, said the hatter, 293 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: Nor I said the march hare. Alice sighed wearily. I 294 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: think you might do something better with the time, she said, 295 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: then wasting it in asking riddles that have no answers. 296 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: If you knew time as well as I do, said 297 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: the hatter, you wouldn't talk about wasting it. It's him. 298 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: I don't know what you mean, said Alice. No, of 299 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: course you don't, And the hatter said, tossing his head contemptuously, 300 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: I daresay you've never even spoke to time. Perhaps not, 301 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: Alice cautiously replied, but I know I have to beat 302 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: time when I learned music that accounts for it. He 303 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 1: won't stand beating. Now. If you were only kept on 304 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: good terms with him, he'd do almost anything you liked 305 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: with the clock. For instance, suppose it were nine o'clock 306 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: in the morning, just time to begin lessons. You'd only 307 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: have to whisper a hint to time, and round goes 308 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: the clock in its weekly half past one time. For detta, 309 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: I only wish it was the March Hare, said to 310 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: itself in a whisper. That would be grand, certainly, said 311 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: Alice thoughtfully. But then I shouldn't be hungry for it, 312 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: you know, not at first, perhaps, said the hatter. But 313 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: you could keep it to half past one as long 314 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: as you liked. Is that the way you manage? Alice asked. 315 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: The hatter shook his head mournfully. Not I, he replied. 316 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: We quarreled last March, just before he went mad, you know, 317 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: pointing with his teaspoon. At the March Hare. It was 318 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: at the great concert given by the Queen of Hearts, 319 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: and I had to sing Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Bat. How 320 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: I hondle where you are at? You know the song? 321 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: Perhaps I've heard something like it, said Alice. It goes on, 322 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, in this way, harp above the world, you 323 00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: fly like a tea tray hidden the sky. A twinkle twinkle. 324 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: Here the dormouse shook itself and began singing in its sleep, 325 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 1: tinkle twinkle, twinkle twinkle, and went on so long that 326 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: they had to pinch it to make it stop. Well, 327 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: I'd hardly finished the first verse when the queen jumped 328 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: up and bawled out hate, murdering the time off with 329 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: his head. How dreadfully savage, exclaimed Alice. And ever since that, 330 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: the hatter went on in a mournful tone. You won't 331 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: do a thing, I asked. He's always six o'clock. Now. 332 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: A bright idea came into Alice's head. Is that the 333 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: reason so many tea things are put out here? She asked? Yes, 334 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: that's it, said the hatter, with a sigh. It's always 335 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: tea time. And if we've no time to wash the 336 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: things between whiles, then you keep moving round, I suppose, 337 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: I said Alice. He exactly so, said the hatter. As 338 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: the things get used up. But what happens when you 339 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: come to the beginning again. Alice ventured to ask, so 340 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: suppose we changed the subject, and the march hare interrupted, yawning, 341 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: I'm getting tired of this. I vote the young lady 342 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: tells us a story. I'm afraid I don't know one, 343 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: said Alice, rather alarmed at the proposals. They both cried, wait, 344 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: and they pinched it on both sides. Once the dormouse 345 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: slowly opened his eyes. I wasn't asleep, he said, in 346 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: a hoarse, feeble voice. I heard every word you fellows 347 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: were saying. Tell us a story, said the march hare. Yes, 348 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: please do, pleaded Alice. And be quick about it, added 349 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: the hatter. You want to be asleep again before it's done. 350 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: Once upon a time there were three little sisters, and 351 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: the dormouse began in a great hurry. And their names 352 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: were Elsie, Lacy, and Tillie, and they lived at the 353 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: bottom of a well. What did they live on, said Alice, 354 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: who always took a great interest in questions of eating 355 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: and drinking. He lived on treacle, said the dormouse. After 356 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: thinking a minute or two. They couldn't have done that, 357 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, Alice gently remarked, they'd have been ill, So 358 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: they were, said the dormouse, very ill. Alice tried to 359 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: fancy to herself what such an extraordinary ways of living 360 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: would be like, but it puzzled her too much, so 361 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: she went on, but why did they live at the 362 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: bottom of a well? Take some more tea? The march 363 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: hare said to Alice very earnestly, I've had nothing yet. 364 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: Alice replied in an offended tone. So I can't take more? 365 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: Or you mean you can't take less, said the hatter. 366 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: It's very easy to take more than nothing. Nobody asked 367 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: your opinion, And who's making your personal remarks now, the 368 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: hatter asked, triumphantly. Alice did not quite know what to 369 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: say to this, so she helped herself to some tea 370 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: and bread and butter, and then turned to the dormouse 371 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: and repeated her question, why did they live at the 372 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: bottom of a well? The dormouse again took a minute 373 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: or two to think about it, and then said it 374 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: was a treacle. Well, there's no such thing. Alice was 375 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: beginning very angrily, but the hatter and the march hare 376 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: went shoo, and the dormouse sulkily remarked, if you can't 377 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: be civil, you'd better finish the story for yourself. No, 378 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: please go on, Alice said, very humbly. I won't interrupt again. 379 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 1: I daresay there may be one one indeed, said the 380 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: dormouse indignantly. However, he consented to go on. And so 381 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: these three little sisters they were learning to draw. You 382 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: know what did they draw? Said Alice? Quite forgetting her promise? Treacle, 383 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: said the dormouse, without considering it at all this time, 384 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: I hunt a clean cup, interrupted the hatter. Let's all 385 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: move one place. On. He moved on as he spoke, 386 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: and the dormouse followed him. The march hare moved into 387 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: the dormouse's place, and Alice rather unwillingly took the place 388 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: of the march hare. The hatter was the only one 389 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: who got any advantage from the change, and Alice was 390 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: a good deal worse off than before, as the march 391 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: hare had just upset the milk drug onto his plate. 392 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: Alice did not wish to offend the dormouse again, so 393 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: she began very cautiously. But I don't understand where did 394 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: they draw the treacle from. You can all water out 395 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: of a what a well? Said the hatter. So I 396 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: should think you could draw a treacle out of a treacle. Well, huh, stupid, 397 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: But they were in the well, Alice said to the dormouse, 398 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: not choosing to notice this last remark. Of course they were, 399 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: said the dormouse. Well in this answer so confused poor 400 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 1: Alice that she let the dormouse go on for some 401 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: time without interrupting it. They were learning to draw. The 402 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: dormouse went on, yawning and rubbing its eyes, for it 403 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: was getting very sleepy, and they drew all manner of things, 404 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: everything that begins with an M. Why with an M, 405 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: said Alice? Why not, said the march hare. Alice was silent. 406 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: The dormouse had closed its eyes by this time and 407 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: was going off into a doze a but on being 408 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: pinched by the hatter, it woke up again with a 409 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: little shriek, and went on that begins with an EM, 410 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: such as mouse traps in the moon, and memory and muchness. 411 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: You know, you say things are much of a muchness? 412 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: Did you ever see such a thing as a drawing 413 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: of a muchness? Really? Now you ask me, said Alice, 414 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: very much confused. I don't think. Then you shouldn't talk, 415 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: he said the hatter. This piece of rudeness was more 416 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: than Alice could bare. She got up in great disgust 417 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: and walked off. The dormounts fell asleep instantly, and neither 418 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: of the others took the least notice of her going, 419 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: though she looked back once or twice, half hoping they 420 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: would call after her. The last time she saw them, 421 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: they were trying to put the dormouse into the tea 422 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: puffed at any rate, I'll never go there again, said 423 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: Alice as she picked her way through the wood. It's 424 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: the stupidest tea party I ever was at in all 425 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: my life. Just as she said this, she noticed that 426 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: one of the trees had a door leading right into it. 427 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: That's very curious, she thought, But everything was curious today. 428 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: I think I may as well go in at once, 429 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: and in she went. That brings us to the end 430 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: of our reading. Um, we hope that you enjoyed it 431 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: as much as we enjoyed doing it, which was a lot. 432 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: Even though I'm like again getting a little annoyed. I've 433 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: been bowland slash amount of her. I like this. I 434 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: like this beef. I know I'm well. I was in 435 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: my role and he was in his. We did our parts. 436 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: We did our parts. But this is what the price 437 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: of art is. I think it'll be fine. I think 438 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: it'll be fine. Um. But we did want to, yeah, 439 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: discuss the book and the impact that it had. But 440 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: first we are going to get into one more quick 441 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: break for a word from our sponsor m h and 442 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. All right, 443 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: so let's let's talk about the history of how these 444 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: books came to be and their impact. Now that we've 445 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: heard kind of a sample sheriff of what they sounded like. Um, 446 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: so the Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glasses 447 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: based on Alice Hargreaves formally Alice Liddell. Her father was 448 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: a classical scholar and in eighteen fifty six he was 449 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: appointed dean at Oxford, so he and his family moved 450 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: into christ Church. There they met and befriended Dodgson slash 451 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: Newis Carroll. The children liked him because of the strange, 452 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: whimsical stories he told. One day in eighteen sixty two, Dodgson, 453 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: along with a friend of his, took three of the 454 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: Ladell girls. Um they were ten Lidell children out in 455 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: a rowboat for a picnic. And Dodgeon told the stories 456 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: along the way, and apparently one of these original stories 457 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: survived in the first book as the Caucus race Um 458 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: on the Ocean of Tears that that Alice cries Um. 459 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: The sisters appeared as as characters too, as birds. Dodgson 460 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: spun himself in as the Dodo and the sort of 461 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: protagonist was Alice Yes, and one of the girls, ten 462 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: year old Alice, and that one was so delighted by 463 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: the adventures of a girl named Alice down the rabbit 464 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: Hole she asked Dodgson to write them down, and Dodgeon 465 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: gave her a handwritten, hand illustrated copy of Alice's Adventures 466 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: Underground as a Christmas gift in eighteen sixty four. Now 467 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: the Littels and Dodgeon had for the most part parted 468 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: ways by eighteen sixty three. Historians aren't sure the exact cause, 469 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: and one of Dodgson's disintants cut out the page of 470 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: his diary that might have explained why so much of 471 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:06,479 Speaker 1: this story. I'm like this sounds fictional, right um. Some 472 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: speculate that Mrs Liddell was uncomfortable with Dodgson's relationship with Alice. 473 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: Because this took place during the Victorian era, it's hard 474 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: to adequately know the motivations, thoughts, and beliefs of those involved. 475 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,959 Speaker 1: It's just like different standards. Yeah. There there's been a 476 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: lot of speculation and and research into all of this, 477 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the facts that we know are 478 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: that Dodgson had a close friendship with Alice, and that 479 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: also he took artistic nude photographs of children who were 480 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: not his children. Um, and that certainly would not fly today. No, no, no, um. 481 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: But right, like like post the era of psychoanalysis, post 482 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: like Freudian thought, really difficult to go back and apply 483 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: modern standards to what was going on in the Victorian era. Um. 484 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, yep, yep um. But anyway, Doshon went on 485 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: to beef up this story into Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 486 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: in part thanks to the urging of an author friend 487 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 1: of his, George McDonald, and Alice's Adventures in Wonderland came 488 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: out in eighteen sixty five under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll, 489 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: with illustrations by John Tenniel. Tenniel, at the time was 490 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: a prolific cartoonist for the magazine punch and also did 491 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 1: a lot of book illustrations. UM. He was commissioned by 492 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: Dodgson to create forty two illustrations for the first Alice book, 493 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: starting in eighteen sixty four. He was about twelve years 494 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: older than Dodgson. UM And apparently they were both so 495 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: similarly particular and like fastidious that their working relationship was 496 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: pretty strained. UM. Of the forty two first drafts that 497 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: Tenniel turned in, Dodgson liked one one one, Humpty dumpty. 498 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: Everything else he was like maybe not yeah, yeah, and 499 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: uh a quick quick note about those illustrations. And and 500 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure that you've seen them before. They are also 501 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: low key what um. The Disney character designs were based on. 502 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: Tenniel drew from memory, not from models, which made his 503 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: style really distinct um from the pre Raphaelites of his 504 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: contemporary era, who were really into life modeling. UM. And 505 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: and I think I think that that kind of cartoony 506 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: from memory style added a lot to the fantastical or 507 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: surreal quality of his illustrations for Alice. UM. Dodgson once said, Mr. 508 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: Tenniel is the only artist who has drawn or me 509 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: who resolutely refused to use a model and declared he 510 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: no more needed one than I should need a multiplication 511 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: table to work a mathematical problem. Wow, I like imagining 512 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: this argument. Yeah goodness, um. Teniel, for his part, dubbed 513 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: Dodgson quote impossible. And after these two books were over, 514 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: he never took another illustration project again. Oh wow he um. 515 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: He was knighted though for his work both in Punch 516 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: magazine and on the Alice books. He lived to the 517 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: age of nineteen fourteen. Something like that. Yeah, yeah for him. Yeah, 518 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,399 Speaker 1: I mean I went through all that stress and still yeah, 519 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: and a long life of it. Yeah, or despite it, 520 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: I guess. Uh. So these books, like you said, Lauren, 521 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: they did break new ground in several ways. Perhaps one 522 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: of the most significant is that it was written as 523 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: entertainment for children, just entertainment, not to teach them, which 524 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: was kind of a rarity at the time. But yeah, 525 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: it was kind of right, right, part of this movement 526 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: that we've talked about before in discussing Hansel and Gretel 527 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: and the brothers Grim of right making books for kids 528 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: enjoyable what um, and I think that this is really 529 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: related to both industrialization and romanticism. Which were in turn 530 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: putting kids into these new harsh forms of labor and 531 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: also then enshrining them as innocence. Uh. Dodgson once wrote 532 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: of children in a letter, their innocent unconsciousness is very 533 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: beautiful and gives one a feeling of reverence as at 534 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: the presence of something sacred. Yeah, uh m hm um. 535 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: And And the first book was well received, and it 536 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 1: sold really well. And in eighteen sixty six Doshon wrote 537 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: to the publisher Alexander McMillan that he had an idea 538 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: for a sequel. In eighteen seventy one, Through the looking 539 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: Glass and what Alice found there came out the first 540 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: letters of one of the poems, and through the looking 541 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: Glass spill out the real Alice's full name, Alice Pleasants Liddell. Ah. Yeah, 542 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: that's the last poem in the book. It's sort of 543 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: a sort of a dedication post publishing, Dodgson said of Ladell, 544 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: without whose infant patronage, I might possibly never have written 545 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 1: at all. He's also maintained the fictional Alice was never 546 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: meant to be the real Alice, per se like based 547 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: on the real Alice. Yeah. Columbia University awarded Alice the 548 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 1: Real one UM an honorary degree for quote awaking with 549 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: her girlhood's charms, the ingenious fancy of a mathematician familiar 550 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: with imaginary quantities, stirring him to reveal his complete understanding 551 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: of the heart of a child in nineteen thirty two. 552 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: Too much excitement. People were very excited about this. She 553 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: died two years later. After her husband's death in nineteen 554 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: um and a need of money, she had auctioned off 555 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: the original manuscript. Action gave her an equivalent of twenty 556 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Yes, nowadays it's in the British Museum. Though okay, 557 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: I tried this is like another I almost went into 558 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: this whole rabbit hole, which hau that's where um so 559 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: all of this after Alice almost married Prince Leopold, Queen 560 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: Victoria's youngest son. However, the queen insisted that Leopold married royalty. 561 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: Alice went on to marry a rich cricket player, but 562 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: the couple named one of their sons Leopold. Prince Leopold 563 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 1: named his daughter Alicaul. However, Alice's sons, Leopold and Allen, 564 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: were both killed during World War Two, leading her with 565 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: only one surviving child, Carol, I'm telling you this is 566 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: like a picture, right, yes, yeah uh. An interesting interesting 567 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: note that I found was that Dodgson, I guess not 568 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: surprising given the type of personality that it sounds like 569 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: he was, but he maintained editorial control over the Alice 570 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: books through his deal with the publisher, in which he 571 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: paid the upfront costs, including this one time that Tennell 572 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: came back after an initial printing and was like, these 573 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: these printings of my illustrations are are crap. I don't 574 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: want it, And Dodgson was like, Okay, heck, we can 575 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,720 Speaker 1: reprint at my own personal cost. Um. But yeah, so 576 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,720 Speaker 1: so he earned ten percent commission on the sales, but 577 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: but maintained really strict editorial can roll Um sales were good. 578 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: By two they had sold well over a hundred thousand 579 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: copies UM. He would publish some three hundred plus written 580 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: works during his life, and a bunch of puzzles and 581 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: games as well. UM and invented a number of small 582 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: contraptions and would die in at the age of sixty 583 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: five m from pneumonia um uh, complications brought on by 584 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: a bout of influenza mm hmm um. But his work 585 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: did have a huge lasting cultural impact. Oh my goodness. Yes. Yes, 586 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: They've been published in at least sixty two languages, and 587 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: they've never been out of print since they were first printed. 588 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: The Alice Books. Yeah. Um. According to Oxford, the Alice 589 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: Books and along with another book that he wrote, The 590 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: Hunting of the Snark, are the most quoted works in 591 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: the English language after Shakespeare in the Bible. Wow. Yeah, yeah. 592 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: Is this where Jafferwockie comes from? Right, yeah, yeah, let's 593 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: see it. Yep. And then that other thing, the time 594 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,479 Speaker 1: has gone, the Walter says told I always get stuck 595 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: in my head, the Walters in the Carpenter, Oh it was. 596 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: It was such a struggle trying to figure out what 597 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: to what to do for this reading. Yeah. Yeah, that 598 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: would have been dark. I mean it is dark. Yeah, 599 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: I would have been a dark very appropriate for for 600 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: the Halloween season. But that's true, that's true. If you 601 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: don't know what we're talking about. That is essentially like 602 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:46,399 Speaker 1: a walrush tricking oysters into letting him eat all of them. Yeah. Well, 603 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: and the carpenter helps the wall. We're saying, the carpenter 604 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: both you know, it's yeah, I mean it's a it's 605 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: a chipper poem right up until the oyster right death, 606 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:02,399 Speaker 1: right up until then though, Um, and then Yeah, there's 607 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: just been so many things inspired by these stories. Um, 608 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: there's been stage plays. The Disney movie came out in 609 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one, and I believe like in a brief 610 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: reading of that history, UM, I think it was Disney 611 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: himself was like, you know, this is my kids kids 612 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,359 Speaker 1: in his orbit loved it. We need to get it made. 613 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,399 Speaker 1: And it's kind of back and forth about getting it made, 614 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: but he was like, Nope, needs to happen. Um. Tim 615 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: Burton took a swing at making film adaptations in the 616 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: first and then sequel in Um, apparently there's an animated 617 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,839 Speaker 1: spin off about the Cheshire Cat in the works for Disney. Plus, Uh, 618 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: you got the Mad Party teacup Ride kind of infamation. Um, 619 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: the Jefferson Airplane song White Rabbit, which just featured in 620 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: the new Matrix trailer. Yep, yep. The video games, Um, 621 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: you've got Kingdom Hearts, where you can go to Wonderland 622 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: as one of the worlds that you can visit. And 623 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: then there's Alice Madness Returns. If you're looking for something 624 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,720 Speaker 1: much creepier. Yeah, yeah, in which a disturbed older Alice 625 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 1: returns to the terrifying dreamscape. Yes or is it? Or 626 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: is it? Yes? Yeah? But then again like sayings like 627 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 1: following their white rabbit and going down the rabbit hole, 628 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: which did appear in the matrix. Um, you've got Mad 629 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: Hatter bought in Futurama. Yeah, there's a goodness. Um the 630 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 1: recent classic that we did about about food in special 631 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: effects with with a guest star v Kelly. V and 632 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: I are talking at one point about a set that 633 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: we were both on, and that set was for a 634 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: series of short films or a short series I don't 635 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: know called um called Ask Hatter and Hair, in which 636 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: the Mad Hatter and the march Hair give advice to people. Oh, 637 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: it's just me getting mad at the mad Hatter. That's 638 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: what it would be if I was involved. I am 639 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: not going to say that anyone should take their advice, um, 640 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: but but it's very entertaining advice. Nonetheless, Ask Katarine Hair. 641 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: You can look for it on YouTube. It's real weird. 642 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: It's real weird, and I do not apologize for my 643 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 1: part in it. Um and uh yeah, and you know, 644 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: like it's these stories are iconic and and and Dodgson 645 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: himself has entered pop consciousness um as in for example, 646 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: this this character Um in the books and Show the Magicians. 647 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: That's sort of a hybrid of Lewis Carroll and C. S. 648 00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 1: Lewis Um. So yeah yeah, And then like briefly discussion 649 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 1: of themes. I think the big one is identity. Uh yeah. 650 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:11,880 Speaker 1: Alie spends a lot of time trying to figure out 651 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: who she is and who she thinks she will be 652 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: when she grows up. There's a lot of like discussion 653 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: around sort of what Ddshon was writing when he was 654 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: doing those family Victorian magazines of like all these rules 655 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 1: and kind of chafing at them and not really getting them, 656 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: but also wanting to be like an adult. Yeah yeah, 657 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: and um and and right and and and manners and 658 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: and all of all of those right right restrictions that, 659 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,760 Speaker 1: especially during the Victorian era where we're very prevalent and 660 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,879 Speaker 1: um and and food is actually a really great way 661 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 1: of demonstrating a lot of those So yes, yes, um 662 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: and speaking of I hadn't really thought about it this way, 663 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: but I did read some people thought like maybe the 664 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,240 Speaker 1: growing and shrinking from mushrooms were like it was bread 665 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: food could be interpreted as puberty and literally growing up. Um. Yes, 666 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: but uh. Some do interpret some of these themes of 667 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,319 Speaker 1: identity and changing as being related to drug use, the 668 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,320 Speaker 1: eating of mushrooms, the drinking of potions. Most researchers or 669 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: historians don't think the work was fueled by drugs, rather 670 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,800 Speaker 1: that readers and viewers of the Disney film during the 671 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies kind of impose these psychedelic themes and interpretations 672 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: as a reflection of the time that they were in. Yes. 673 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty five, and English psychiatrist named John Todd 674 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: discovered a rare neurological disease that causes hallucinations, particularly around 675 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 1: the size of things that historians believe Dodgson might have 676 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: had UM, which would explain those recurrent themes. Todd called 677 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:55,280 Speaker 1: the disorder Alice and Wonderland syndrome a k a. Todd syndrome. 678 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,799 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's it's it's so interesting, you know. We 679 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: we we choose these readings for these episodes, at least 680 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: partially based on the fact that the works are in 681 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 1: the public domain, which means that they are not recent um, 682 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: which which means that we are talking about cultures that 683 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: are that are fairly far removed from ours today. And 684 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: it's always so interesting to me as as a writer 685 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: and reader myself, thinking about how works become so widespread, 686 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: so enduring, lee popular, and uh Dodgson himself apparently did 687 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,799 Speaker 1: some thinking about that. Um. He he once wrote not 688 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: about about Alice in particular, but about, um, the Hunting 689 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,840 Speaker 1: of the Snark, which was right this this this epic 690 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 1: ridiculous poem um that he got some criticism for because 691 00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: people were like, this is nonsense? Is it anything nonsense? 692 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: And he was kind of like, words mean more than 693 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: we mean to express when we use them, So a 694 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: whole book ought to mean a great deal more than 695 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 1: the writer meant. Oh that is interesting, which I think 696 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:24,040 Speaker 1: is just a great dodge a but but be um, yeah, 697 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 1: just a just a really good sentiment about about the 698 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: works that we create and um how much um the 699 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 1: reader is a part of those works or the listener 700 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 1: or you know, whatever whatever human who is interacting with 701 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 1: it after the creator has done with it. Yeah. No, 702 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 1: I think that's that's really fascinating. And uh, you know, 703 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 1: you can't not bring your own experiences and um, thoughts 704 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,640 Speaker 1: to something that you're interacting with in that way. And 705 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 1: a lot of times I'm someone who is really interested 706 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: as as a person who does right or does like 707 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,719 Speaker 1: creative things like when someone interprets something I did completely 708 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: differently like oh yeah, right right, interesting, or I love 709 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,320 Speaker 1: when like there's a like a bad ending for something 710 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,480 Speaker 1: that's a whole tangent. I could go on, but like 711 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,919 Speaker 1: fans will be like, well, I think it actually meant this, 712 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: and as a creator, I would probably be like, yes, interesting, 713 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: that other better thing that you thought of is definitely 714 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,399 Speaker 1: what it was meant to be. It's just h yeah, 715 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: I love it, um, and I love doing these episodes. 716 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,279 Speaker 1: So I hope we get to do another one and 717 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: not like a year. Yes, sooner, sooner than that, um, 718 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: for sure. Yes and listeners, UM, you all have been 719 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 1: so great with sending recommendations that are yes in the 720 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: public domain and maybe we haven't heard of or if 721 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: you I mean, something we have heard of, so please 722 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,760 Speaker 1: keep those suggestions coming. What should be our next food 723 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:09,319 Speaker 1: fairy tale reading? You can email us at Hello at 724 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,360 Speaker 1: saborpod dot com. We are also on social media and 725 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,239 Speaker 1: you can get in touch with us there. We are 726 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,759 Speaker 1: on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at savor pod and we 727 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: do hope to hear from you. Savor is a production 728 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 729 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: you can visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 730 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as 731 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. 732 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,040 Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening, and we hope that lots 733 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:34,439 Speaker 1: more good things are coming your way.