1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,239 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: going into the vault. This was an episode that originally 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: published on May and it is the first part of 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: our series on the invention of the book. Yeah, so 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: you know, it gets into the history of book technology, 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: going back to ancient clay tablets, et cetera. So it's 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: it's a fun journey. We hope you enjoy the repeat 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: of it. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: And today on Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we're gonna 13 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: be starting on an expedition into the history of books. 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: We're I guess this will be in the spirit of 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: our our previous show Invention. We're gonna look at an 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: invention and then I think the book is probably one 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: of the most underappreciated technologies. Obviously, it's not that people 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: don't appreciate books as things, but when we think about books, 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: I think there's a problem that we only appreciate the 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: contents of the books. We only think about them as literature, 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: and we don't think about what a marvelous technology the 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: modern book is. That's right. Yeah, we basically need to 23 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: take a step back here before we really get into 24 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: the idea of the invention of the book. Books are, 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: in the words of Carl Sagan, a means of storing 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: additional information that exceeds the information carrying capacity of the brain. 27 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: And I realized, that's that's kind of, uh, you know, 28 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: a simplified version of what they are. But it's also 29 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: kind of a useful overstatement of the obvious um. The 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: book is a tool. It is an extension of the 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: human body in the same way that a normal tool is, 32 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: but in this case it is more precisely in an 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: extension of the human mind, kind of an external hard 34 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: drive for the brain. Exactly. Yeah, I think this this 35 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: is an example where our our tendency to use computer 36 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: metaphors to understand our own minds, as you know, it's 37 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: actually pretty helpful. But of course books are more than that. 38 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: Two books are a way for one author, or a 39 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: group of authors, or even a legacy of authors to 40 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: think their thoughts directly into another person's brain. It's a 41 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: it's a way of not only storing information, but disseminating information, 42 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: and as such it's played the books have played a 43 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: vital role in the spread of information, where, for instance, 44 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: would Western civilization be if not for the influx influx 45 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: of Arab books into the medieval world. And that's just 46 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: one example. Oh yeah, but that's I think it's a 47 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: fantastic example because it books provide a way for lost 48 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: knowledge to be reclaimed. Even when knowledge sort of like 49 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: fades into obscurity within sort of the the oral culture 50 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: of a society, if there is a book that contains 51 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: that knowledge, that voice and and the book can be found, 52 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: suddenly all of that past knowledge can return. And I 53 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: think your example is a very good one. Now thinking 54 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: more about the metaphor of like the external hard drive 55 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: or the way of storing information outside the carrying capacity 56 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: of the brain. In some ways, I think that's a 57 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: really good metaphor, but there are also very important ways 58 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: that that doesn't quite capture everything that books can do. 59 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: For example, a book is a very different kind of 60 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: memory than a memory in the brain is. And I 61 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: would say one of the main issues is that books 62 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: are fixed physical documents, whereas memories in the brain are 63 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: not fixed. Memories are always changing. Every time you recall 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: a memory, you probably change it in some way. And 65 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: while you know it is possible, of course to remember 66 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: things in an accurate way, it is probably not possible 67 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: to say, remember the amount of exact numeracle figures that 68 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: would be recorded in a book list of assets or prices. 69 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: As many you know of the oldest books that they are. 70 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: You know, any of the oldest books we have are 71 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: basically trade documents of some kind, or to remember the 72 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: exact wording of of an epic poem describing a mythological foundation. Absolutely, 73 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: you know. Another take on this that I was reading about. 74 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: I was reading something from Andrew Robinson, author of the 75 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: Story of Writing, and he points out that you know 76 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: just how powerful books are and how how feared books 77 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: often are, particularly by usurpers of power and conquerors who 78 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: often burn books of oppressive regimes band books. Uh, you 79 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: know that they are powerful reservoirs of human thought and 80 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: and to your point earlier, I mean they endure in 81 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: ways that oral histories often cannot. Uh. Knowledge can be lost, 82 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: but then it can be regained through books, words and 83 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: the books that contain them. Um, they freeze our thoughts 84 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: as well, in a way that in oral history does not. 85 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: The myth that it exists within the minds and on 86 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: the tongues of the people will continue to change. But 87 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: that which has been recorded, uh, you know, retains all 88 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: of the you know, the curious edges that it had 89 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: when it was the first written down. And you know, 90 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: I don't recall the source on this, but I remember 91 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: us bringing up this idea of of words and in 92 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: a literature freezing thoughts in the past. You know that 93 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: it's taking what is happening in our mind and just 94 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: fixing it. Yeah. I think the example of the way 95 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: myths change over time is a great one here, Like 96 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: it calls to mind the recent episodes we did about 97 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: the evolution of the Medusa myth. You know, there's clearly 98 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: some kind of oral history mythology feeding into the story 99 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: that became Medusa and Athena, Medusa and Perseus. But once 100 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: you have a particular author writing their version of that myth, 101 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: suddenly that version is a fixed thing that can be 102 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: referred to, and it's no longer just just you know, 103 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: an uncountable part of this protean stew of mythology. Now 104 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: there is like Ovid's version of the Medusa myth, and 105 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: that that that's a thing you can refer to. Now. 106 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: Of course, it's not the case that books never changed. 107 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: I think, especially in the ancient world. One thing that 108 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: that's hard for us in the modern world to to 109 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: keep in mind is that books in the ancient world 110 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: had to be copied by hand when they were you know, 111 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: spread about, so changes could easily creep in, either by 112 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: mistakes from you know, scribes doing a sloppy job of copying, 113 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: or just inserting their own little impermature on whatever it 114 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: is they're working on. That that did happen too, sometimes 115 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: even in uh, you know, even in very important books 116 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: like the works of Plato or in the Bible. Um. 117 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: But there's another interesting thing that I think, you know, 118 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: you you were talking about the political power of books, 119 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: the way that like you know, conquerors and and and 120 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: political leaders often like burn or banned books that scare them. 121 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: There is a power in written documents um to create 122 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: a kind of stability in a political sense, right, Because 123 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: I was thinking about how a lot of the earliest 124 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: written documents that exist in human history are lists of 125 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: numeracle figures like like a record of prices or assets 126 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: in in trade or possession, or lists of laws like 127 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: Hamarabi's Code. I actually got to see the Hamarabi's Code 128 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: steal in the Louver recently and and and it made 129 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: me think they're about the significance of having a written 130 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: law code. Now, we might read the laws in Hamarabi's 131 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: Code and and see a lot of brutality and unfairness 132 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: in there. And I think there is absolutely that kind 133 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: of thing to find. But you can also appreciate it 134 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: in a certain way because having a list of written laws, 135 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: as opposed to sort of rule by the ad hoc 136 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: pronouncements of a leader does, at least in theory, reduce 137 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: the amount of caprice in how justice is administered. Right 138 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: Like a written law code, at least in theory, if 139 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: it's enforced well, allows you to know what the rules 140 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: and punishments are in advances rather than just kind of 141 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: like living in fear of whatever the leader's mood is 142 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: going to be today. Yeah, you remove the whims of 143 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: the tyrant. And also I mentioned in another level, you 144 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: kind of remove like, um, let's say you weren't even 145 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: dealing with the tyrant. Let's say you're dealing with just 146 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: sort of like the traditions and stories of the people, right, Um, 147 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: you'd have to like interpret those to get your laws. 148 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: But here, no, here are the laws in a list. 149 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: You can in many cases you may able to, you know, 150 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: to look at it all at once, all ten things. 151 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: You couldn't actually have them all in your head at 152 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: the same time, but they are all on this stone 153 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: at the same time, exactly right, Like it gives you 154 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: a common foundation that multiple people can refer to. Now, 155 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: I want to get back to the just the idea 156 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: of of books here before we inevitably dive back through 157 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: history again. You know, I was thinking about how every 158 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: now and then, you know, hear somebody joke say something 159 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: like remember books, uh when when contemplating electronic resources such 160 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: as e books and kindles and what have you, um, which, 161 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: you know, I get that to a certain extent because 162 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: I know I've I've in my family have tried to 163 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: cut down on clutter books in the home, you know, 164 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: like how many how many physical books do I actually need? 165 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: I love books, have left my own devices. I'm sure 166 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: that I would have a lot of book clutter. But 167 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you know, is this 168 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: something I'm going to actually look forward? Am I going 169 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: to actually pull it out and uh and and and 170 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: reference it at some point? And or do I have 171 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: an electronic copy already somewhere else. I've noticed in myself 172 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: I at least tend to accumulate kind of books of 173 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: marginal interest, Like I'll end up with books in my 174 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: house that are things that, uh that I you know, 175 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: there's probably a low likelihood that I'll ever get around 176 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: to reading them. They're not high on my priorities list, 177 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: and they're just here somehow, either I got them at 178 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: work or you know that kind of or they just 179 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: like looked interesting and they used a bookstore one time. 180 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: It's like, hey, it's sixt sense, I'll get it. Um. 181 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: That reminds me of if I'm remembering this correctly. Um, 182 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: burd of Echo had an anecdote about you know, Burdo Echo, 183 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: of course had quite a personal library. Um. I think 184 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: he had to like reinforce the floor to to allow 185 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: him to keep it. But at some point, some like 186 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: a workman or somebody had come over and they saw 187 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: all the books and they're like, oh, have you read 188 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: all of these? And he said no, no, these are 189 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: just the ones I planned to read, which which I 190 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: see that reflected in some of my own books. You know, 191 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: you start amassing books and you're like, uh, you know, 192 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: I haven't read these yet. Um, I would like to 193 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: read these, and that's why they're taking a valuable space 194 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: in my home. But I still have a lot of 195 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,719 Speaker 1: books in the house. And and even beyond that, I mean, 196 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: they're just books everywhere still, Like there there's a library 197 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: down the street from where I live. They're all these 198 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: lending libraries, you know, so you just just traveling from 199 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: here to the library. There are just books, little boxes, 200 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: wooden boxes filled with like various old cookbooks, into horror 201 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: and sci fi books, that sort of thing. And on 202 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: top of this, our various e books are PDFs. These 203 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: are still digital extensions of the the the idea, the 204 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: concept of the book. You know, they still obey the 205 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: laws of the Codex, and as such, I think the 206 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: book will continue to be with us for quite some time. 207 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: But one of the big questions we're gonna be asking 208 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: in in this episode or episodes of Stuff to blow 209 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: your mind is how far back in time would you 210 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: have to travel, uh, you know, to reach a world 211 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: in which a book would not be identifiable as what 212 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: it is. Well, that's interesting because so the most common 213 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: form of book that we're familiar with today is the 214 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: is the printed book, you know, the product of a 215 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: printing press. But as I was saying earlier, that's actually 216 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: a fairly recent phenomenon. You know, for much of human history, 217 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: if you had a book, that sucker had to be 218 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: made by hand. Absolutely. Now now, certainly the printed book 219 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: as as we you know know it like generally the 220 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: first thing coming to your mind when I say book, Uh, 221 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: that only goes back as far as the fifteenth century. See. 222 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: But while the printing press certainly changed the trajectory of 223 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: the book forever in ways that we'll come back to, 224 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: these were certainly not the first books. Yeah, they were. 225 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: Before this we had we had handwritten books. We had 226 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: the products of the of you know, medieval European scriptoriums. 227 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: And so you might think, well, that's the beginning, right, 228 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: we go back to the scriptorium, and that would be 229 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: the beginning of the book somewhere in there. But this 230 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: would also be incorrect. So to really get to the 231 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: heart of the book, to get the heart of the 232 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: Kodak we have to travel much further back in time. 233 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna take 234 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: a quick break and then we will begin that journey. 235 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: Than sorry, we're back. So when we talk about an invention, 236 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: we like to talk about what what came before, What 237 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: were the prerequisites of this invention, and what were the 238 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: forces driving it. Now, when we're talking about a book, 239 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: this is obviously an invention with many forms. What what 240 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: counts as a book? Maybe we can talk about that 241 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: a little bit more as we go on. Most of us, 242 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: when we say book, we're imagining what inform would be 243 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: called like a codex. Right, it's bound. It has pages 244 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: that face in from either side and then are joined 245 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: at a spine, and you can flip through the pages 246 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: and read them. But you know, there are other ways 247 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: of thinking about books, and all of these are, no 248 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: matter what their form, going to trace back to the 249 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: original invention of written language. Yes, and and this in 250 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: and of itself stands as one of the greatest inventions, 251 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: uh that that humans have wrought writing systems themselves seem 252 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: to emerge out of the fourth millennium b C. In Mesopotamia. So, 253 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: just to throw out some dates here. Um, you know, 254 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: in Egypt we're talking about in the Indus Valley we're 255 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: talking about b C. In Crete seventeen fifty BC. In 256 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: China twelve hundred b C. And in Central America five 257 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: dred BC. And so are those different dates you're giving, 258 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: are those believed to be um parts along a spreading 259 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: evolution of language or independent inventions of written language? Well, 260 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: it's interested reading about this, and apparently some scholars believe 261 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: writing may have spread from culture to culture, but the 262 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,479 Speaker 1: majority seemed to see it as a situation of independent 263 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: invention in the various major civilizations of the ancient world 264 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: and beyond the ancient world, as it becomes increasingly important 265 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: to record trade data, laws, histories, and more. Coming back 266 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: again to you know, why do we turn to the 267 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: written word? Why do we turn to keeping records of things? 268 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,479 Speaker 1: So that that's where it begins. It's not the composition 269 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: of poetry. Uh, it's not that taking our oral histories 270 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: and putting them down in a solid form. It's it's 271 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: initially about the data about the laws, you know. In 272 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: a way, it's it's like it begins with computing, right, Yeah, 273 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: I think, well, what we were talking about earlier, like 274 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: fixing points of information for future reference, so that you 275 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: can either no, you know, know something that is beyond 276 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: your ability to remember in a stable way just within 277 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: your own brain, or so that you can you and 278 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: multiple other people can all be able to point to 279 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: the same thing and and and be agreed because it's 280 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: written in the text. Of course, the thing with writing 281 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: is you have to you have to put it on something, right, Uh. Right. 282 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: You know if I take a note about what I 283 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: need to get at the grocery store and I put 284 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: it on, say, you know, post it note. Great, I 285 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: have a note, but that's that's that's not a book 286 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: that I can't really make an argument that's a book, 287 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: not unless I do some serious folding, right, and post 288 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: it notes did not exist in the ancient world. Most 289 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: of the oldest known written documents of any significant length 290 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: uh that that still exists today are printed on solid, hard, 291 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: often heavy surfaces by carving a relief. Uh. And so 292 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: a great example would be one thing I already mentioned, 293 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: the Code of Hammurabi, dated to around seventeen fifty BC. 294 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: This is a law code from ancient Mesopotamia. There was 295 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: one law I was just looking at in it that 296 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: I thought was very interesting and related to a recent episode. 297 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: I believe this is law number one seven of Hammurabi's code. 298 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: If anyone point the finger at a sister of a 299 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: god or the wife of anyone, and cannot prove it, 300 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: this man shall be taken before the judges and his 301 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: brow shall be marked. And the way scholars interpret that 302 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: idea of pointing the finger is as slander, I believe interesting. 303 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: But but here we get in one of our earliest 304 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: known law codes, like the the idea that pointing the 305 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: finger is a very dangerous act and it deserves judicial remedy. Um. 306 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: But so the code of Hammurabi is carved on what's 307 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: known as a steel. This is like a large block 308 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: that cannot be easily transported, for one from one place 309 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: to another. It's not like a book you can put 310 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: in your pocket or sack or carry away. You can't 311 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: store it in a compact way. It's this huge stone. 312 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: And so a steel was often an official decree or 313 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: some kind of public document that would be meant for 314 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: display display to onlookers, often bound to a particular place, 315 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: and the contents that are displayed on a steel often 316 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: bear out this usage. So contents you might find would 317 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: be laws, tomb or grave markers. One example I really 318 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: like is is a boundary steel. We've talked about this 319 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: in previous episodes. I believe where you might have UM 320 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: in the ancient areas, there would be like a marker 321 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: at the edge of somebody's property and it might just 322 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: contain a list of statements on it, like this property 323 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: here belongs to so and so. You can't come on 324 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: the property. If you come on the property, the gods 325 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: will pluck out your eyes if you come on the 326 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: property at you know, and then it's just like list 327 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: after you know, list item after list item of all 328 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: these like curses that will befall you if you violate this, 329 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: uh this this property restriction. Yeah, it's it's a wonderful idea. 330 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: We need to bring it back. Uh that I put 331 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: one of those in my yard. Uh. They if you 332 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: come on this property without a mask, um, the god 333 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: show smite you. Um. The that episode was I think 334 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: we just titled it the Curse, and it was an 335 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: October publication, and there's a lot of interesting stuff and 336 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: I remember going into some uses of the curse in 337 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: um in Chinese carpentry. Uh, there's some fun examples. Yeah, yeah, totally. 338 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: But so these types of you know, writing substrates are 339 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: things that are gonna be big fixed, usually meant to 340 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: stay in one place and say something that has to 341 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: do with that particular place. Another example would be, uh, 342 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: some of these ancient steel Uh, I don't know what 343 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: the plural is. Actually, I should know the steely, steally, 344 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: stella whatever it is. Um, they will like lists to 345 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: the exploits of a mighty king and say, like all 346 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: the people that he conquered and all the heads that 347 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: he smashed. Yeah, it's such an amazing concept when you 348 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: really think about it, because it's not just writing down information. 349 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: Like these large scale examples of this are you're taking 350 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: you're taking this knowledge, you're taking this history or this 351 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: interpretation of history, or propaganda however you want to phrase it, 352 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: and you're you're you're printing it on the world. You're 353 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: making it part of the environment. Yeah, totally, And so 354 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: I think we should make a distinction here. While I 355 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: think these early you know, written documents that are carved 356 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: on large stones and and you know whatever you want 357 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: to call the steel tradition, I don't think that's a book. 358 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: Probably I think for something to qualify as a book, 359 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: it really needs to include an element of compactness and portability. 360 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: I think it needs to be something that could reasonably 361 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: be carried from one place to another, and could reasonably 362 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: be stored in multiples within a building or a home. 363 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: And that's a fancy way of saying, um, could you 364 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: kill a bug with it? Like if you could not 365 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: kill a bug with it, I'm not sure it's a 366 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: book in any in any way, shape or form. I 367 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: like your Death Mission better. So a side down a 368 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: little deeper in determining what is and what is in 369 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: a book, I of course turned to a book that 370 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: I love to dive into anytime. We start looking at 371 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: an ancient invention. That is The Seventy Great Inventions of 372 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: the Ancient World, edited by Brian Fagan UM and the 373 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: contributor in this book for the chapters dealing with writing 374 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: and encryption in the History of Books, UH is an individual. 375 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: They're already mentioned by the name of Andrew Robinson, who 376 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: wrote the story of writing Lost Languages and the man 377 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: who deciphered linear b So I want to read an 378 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: excerpt from Robinson's work in The seventy Great inventions of 379 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: the ancient world. Quote, there is nothing in the concept 380 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: of the book that requires it to consist of pages 381 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: with text printed or written on paper, still less sown 382 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: or glued together between cardboard covers like present day examples, 383 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: a cash of Babylon clay tablets, an Egyptian papyrus, role 384 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: of vellum codex from medieval Europe, a folding maya codex 385 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: with jaguar skin covers from Central America, a microfilm, and 386 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: an electronic book all qualify as books as much as 387 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: printed paper volume. And uh this, when I was reading 388 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: this instantly brought to mind the concept of a physical book, 389 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: as presented in Frank Herbert's Dune, which of course takes 390 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: place in the far future of humanity. I don't know 391 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: if you remember this, Joe, but there's this concept of 392 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: a first of all film books, which are described as 393 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: sugar wire imprints used in training and carrying an monochy pulse. 394 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: Well that clears it up. Yeah, yeah, ignore that part. 395 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: But because there's also mentioned of an old fashioned book 396 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: but with a futuristic twist. It's an old orange Catholic 397 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: bible that a character gives to another, and it's made 398 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: for space travelers were told it's printed on filament paper 399 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: that you can't actually touch. It has its own magnifier, 400 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: and it has an electrostatic charge system, so the charge 401 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: holds the book closed, forcing against spring locked covers. Were 402 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: told you press the edge of the book and the 403 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: selected pages open, the magnifier slides into place, and you 404 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: can move it ahead page by page in this fashion 405 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 1: fashion without ever touching these like super delicate pages. I 406 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: remember reading that for the first time as a kid 407 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: and just being like blown away by this this idea 408 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: of this this tiny little space bible that has its 409 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: own magnifier and it's um, you know, it's using this 410 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: electric electrostatic charge system to turn the tiny little pages. 411 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a combination of a book 412 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: in a micro fiche. But it's like, yeah, it's got 413 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: its own reading apparatus exactly. Yeah. But I want to 414 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: come back to what Robinson was talking about. He's he's 415 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: sort of rolling out what he sees as the criteria 416 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: for calling something a book. Quote. They are all made 417 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: for public circulation, enjoy a considerable degree of permanence, and 418 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: are relatively portable compared, say to a monumental inscription through 419 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: their different media. They are all capable of knowledge transmission, 420 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: transcending space and time. Of course, printing with movable type, 421 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: which was invented much later than the book, vastly increases 422 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: its potential readership, but it does not define the concept. Well, 423 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: there's something he kind of hints at in the last 424 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: sentence there which which I find interesting, which is the 425 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: idea of a possible link between the mass production of 426 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: books and and people's ability to read books. Because another thing, 427 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, we we talked about how for most of 428 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: human history, books were not mass produced. They had to 429 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: be copied by hand. They were precious and rare things 430 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: that were difficult to make um and so you know, 431 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: obviously the only people who could afford to have them 432 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: would be like institutions or very rich people, or monasteries, 433 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But also, you know, for most 434 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: of human history, most people have been illiterate. It's only 435 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: really in the past couple of centuries that that widespread 436 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: public literacy has been a goal. Absolutely. Yeah, So you 437 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: have to ask yourself. I mean, obviously a book that 438 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: cannot be read is still for the most part of book, 439 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: but by some definitions maybe not like for instance, we 440 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: discussed the Voniche manuscript in the past on the show, 441 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: you know, and it's unreadable nature that continues to uh 442 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: intrigue and confuse us. You know, if if the book 443 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: cannot convey information, if the boot, if the book is mute. 444 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: Uh you know what does that say? It's if I 445 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: feel similar ways about say like if Wu Tang puts 446 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: out an album that know, but the only one person 447 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: can listen to, or John Malkovich makes a film that 448 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: nobody can watch for a hundred years, Like is that 449 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: really an album? Is that really a movie? Because um, 450 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, this is like a communication has to take 451 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: place for this to really be media in certain certain respects. Yeah, 452 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: I agree, it's an interesting way of thinking about it. 453 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: Uh So Robinson goes on to just briefly outline some 454 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: of the core examples of of early things that we 455 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: could we could say we're books. Uh So, the two 456 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: earliest contenders that he highlights, first of all, Mesopotamian clay tablets. 457 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: These would be handwritten cuneiform script inscribed in clay with 458 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: a red and then baked. And then the other one, uh, 459 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: that's this one of the two contenders here is Egyptian 460 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: papyrus rolls written in ink with a brush the papyrus itself. Uh. 461 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: This was this was made from sheets that were made 462 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: from the papyrus plant, so stripped, sliced overlapped in layers 463 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: of pith, pressed and then allowed to dry. And I'll 464 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: come back to this one in more detail and a bit. However, 465 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: three other innovations that are worth highlighting Chinese bamboo and 466 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: wooden slips bound together with cords. Uh. This basically constitutes 467 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: the idea of a book. And of course the Chinese 468 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: would have would go on to invent paper itself in 469 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: one oh five c. And from there it would spread 470 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: through East Asia, though it would be nearly a thousand 471 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: years before Europe followed suit. You also have Mediterranean writing tablets. 472 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: These would be consist of one to ten pieces of 473 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: wood bound together by a clasp or hinge, or alternatively 474 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: by a cord strong through holes around along the edges. 475 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: And then you also have Greek and Roman wax writing tablets. Uh. 476 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: And of course they also use papyrus and parchment roles 477 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 1: as well. And of course all of these examples of 478 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: what we might call books. Uh, we're leading up to 479 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: what we refer to as the codex, in which a 480 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: number of sheets of parchment are bound together with writing 481 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: on both sides of each sheet. Yeah, and it's really 482 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,959 Speaker 1: the codex. I think that's the first thing that we 483 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: recognize as is morphologically the same as the modern books 484 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: that we have, despite changes in materials and stuff. The 485 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: codex is what you're thinking of when you think of 486 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: a book. It folds, it has pages. You leave through 487 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: the pages to read exactly. So I was reading an 488 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: excellent brief overview of the history of things leading up 489 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: to the Codex in a book called the book The 490 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: Life Story of a Technology by Nicole Howard. I think 491 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: this was released at some point through Johns Hopkins University 492 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: Press UM. But but Howard's overview is interesting. So she 493 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: mentions some of the same things you're talking about, of course, 494 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: that you know in in the early archaeological record of 495 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: written documents, hard surfaces rule the day. And of course 496 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: these would include like the steel that we mentioned before, uh, 497 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: and the you know, the Mesopotamian clay tablets, the what 498 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: the Assyrians the Babylonians used to preserve written information and 499 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, making in dense on clay tablets. But also 500 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: things like wood and bone. She also mentioned several other 501 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: substrates that I thought were interesting as as surfaces for 502 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: writing on, including ivory, tortoise shell, linen, palm leaves, and 503 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: what's called bast fiber, which is a tough fiber from 504 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: the vascular tissue of some plant species which is often 505 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: used to make things like rope or matting. And and 506 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: she identifies the most direct ancestor to the modern hardware 507 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: of a book, a bound book with pages, as what 508 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: emerges in northern Africa around twenty b c. E. I've 509 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: I've read some other estimates putting it earlier, around three 510 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: thousand or thirty one BC. We don't know exactly, but 511 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: of course, whenever it did emerge, this was papyrus. And 512 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: it's time to sound the alarm. We got it. We 513 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: got a plenty of the elder alert. Are you ready 514 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: for some plenty? Yeah? Yeah, let's let's touch in with 515 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: plenty of the elder for little history here. But first 516 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: we should probably take one more break. Oh okay, we're 517 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna jump out, but then we'll be right 518 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: back in with plenty. All right, we're back, So we're 519 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: jumping in with Plenty of the Elder and his description 520 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: of the ancient papyrus industry. So Plenty of the Elder, 521 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: of course, was a first century Roman military officer and author, encyclopedist, 522 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: president of the lead Acetate Fan Club. Of course, he 523 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: he wrote at length about what he believed on the 524 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: history and production of papyrus. And this would be I'm 525 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: gonna read a section here from the Bostock and Riley 526 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: translation of Plenty's Natural History, which is his his big encyclopedia. 527 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: It's got it's got all the info you'll ever need. Uh. 528 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: So Plenty rights, we have not as yet taken any 529 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: notice of the marsh plants, nor yet of the shrubs 530 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: that grow upon the banks of rivers. Before quitting Egypt. However, 531 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: we must make some mention of the nature of the papyrus, 532 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: seeing that all the usages of civilized life depend in 533 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: such a remarkable degree upon the employment of paper at 534 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: all events the remembrance of past events. Um so, and 535 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: so he's he's talking about the translation there uses the 536 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: word paper. Of course, this is not exactly what we'll 537 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: talk about when we get into the Chinese papermaking tradition. 538 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: This is papyrus a slightly different thing though, it's a 539 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: sort of paper like. He calls papyrus that commodity by 540 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: which immortality is ensured to man. So Plenty of ranking 541 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: papyrus up there as like one of the most important 542 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: inventions in Roman civilization, He's like, hey, without papyrus, basically 543 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: like we we couldn't have a civilization, We couldn't have 544 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: remembrance of things past. So he goes on to introd 545 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: the plant by saying, quote, Papyrus grows either in the 546 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: marshes of Egypt or in the sluggish waters of the 547 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,959 Speaker 1: River Nile when they have overflowed and are lying stagnant, 548 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: in pools that do not exceed a couple of cubits 549 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: in depth. The route lies obliquely and is about the 550 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: thickness of one's arm. The section of the stalk is triangular, 551 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: and it tapers gracefully upwards towards the extremity, being not 552 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: more than ten cubits at most in height. And then 553 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: Plenty goes on to explain the way that papyrus was made, 554 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: that this is coming sort of from Howard summary. Basically, 555 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: you would you would cut the plant into segments, and 556 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: you would remove this outer green rind to access the 557 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: pith inside, which is this pulpy substance that's made primarily 558 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: of cellulose. Cellulose, of course, is fiber. And then the 559 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: pith would be laid out in these long, thin strips 560 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,959 Speaker 1: on a damp table or board and hammered flat side 561 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: by side to form these single layer sheets. And then 562 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: a second layer of strip was laid flat perpendicular to 563 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: the first sheet, and then also pounded or pressed flat. 564 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: And Plenty claims that these perpendicular sheets were quote moistened 565 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: with nile water, a liquid which, when in a muddy state, 566 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 1: has the peculiar qualities of glue. Now, Howard mentions that 567 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: modern scholars do not think nile water was actually used 568 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: as a glue here. Instead, they think that the glue 569 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: would just be a natural property of these plant fibers. 570 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: There would be a sap in the reed, and that 571 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: sap would bind the sheets together once they had been 572 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: pounded or pressed in a perpendicular fashion. Yes, Robinson writes 573 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: this as well, that it's the naturally occurring sap. Yeah, 574 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: But either way, you would then dry the sheets, and 575 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: so an individual sheet of papyrus might be small. It 576 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: just might be you know, or on twelve inches in height. 577 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: But what you could do is glue sheets together at 578 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: the edges, and then once you've attached a bunch of 579 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: papyrus sheets together, they can be rolled up into scrolls. 580 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: And scrolls, of course, are an important book technology that 581 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: precedes the codex, and we can explore that more as 582 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: we go forward. Um. But Howard points out an interesting 583 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: side effect of the production process. She says that by 584 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: hammering the strips together in this perpendicular fashion, this was 585 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: actually important because it would allow you to to get 586 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: a much more durable material. Right. The paper will be flexible, 587 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: it'll be fairly tough, you know, because you've got this 588 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: crossing here. But also as a side effect, you'd get 589 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: one side of the papyrus sheet with natural fibers running 590 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: top to bottom, while the other side would have fibers 591 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: running horizontally. And this has practical implications for writing. The 592 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: side with the fibers running horizontally was fairly easy to 593 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: write on, you know, think about like line to note paper, right, 594 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: but the side with the fibers running vertically was often 595 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: considered unfit for writing. It was difficult to write on, 596 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: and a lot of archaeologists have found that in the 597 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: ancient world, a lot of people just didn't write on 598 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: this side of the page, which is very interesting because 599 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: you know, when you consider writing material as a relatively 600 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: precious commodity compared to how you know, cheap and easily 601 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: accessible paper is today. Yeah, it's almost like they were natural. Um. 602 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: I find with children it's similar, like you have to 603 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: remind them, hey, uh, the printer paper didn't grow on trees, 604 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: so please use the back of the printer paper when 605 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: you were you know, sketching monsters and and whatnot. But 606 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: because their natural instinct seems to be just to to 607 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: do the front and just leave it at that, I 608 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: don't know, but no, my marker bleeds through. I need 609 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: to have you know, clean monsters on either side. Yeah. Um, 610 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: we may come back to this in a bit. But 611 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm reminded earlier I mentioned how like her e books 612 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: are essentially the codex, uh, you know, in in a 613 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: in e form. But of course I should probably add 614 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: this because I know a lot of people may have 615 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: been thinking this as well. You know, it depends on 616 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: how you have your set your viewing settings in place. 617 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: For instance, the notes that we are using here I've 618 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: mine are currently in a PDF form, so I'm reading 619 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: it in Adobe Acrobat Pro and uh, currently it is scrolling. 620 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: Now there is a separation between pages, so it's like 621 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: I have scrolling pages. However, if I go to my 622 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: view settings, I can change that. I can remove the 623 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: space between the pages and turn it into essentially a 624 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: digital scroll. Um Instead, I'm doing something that is I 625 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: think ultimately more like a codex. Uh. And you can 626 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: even you know, of course, do things where you have 627 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: like opposing pages and all as well. So I don't know, 628 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: maybe we are living in a in an age where UMU, 629 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: there's maybe a preference for the codex, but we certainly 630 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: have scroll like options available to us as well. Yeah, 631 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: I see what you're talking about. I mean, this isn't 632 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: the first time I've heard this. Actually, I remember many 633 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: years ago watching some interview where, um, the literary scholar 634 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: Harold Bloom was in a in a you know, characteristically 635 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: grumpy fashion, lamenting the rise of the idea of e books. 636 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: He he just seemed to hate this idea and he 637 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: care with the way he described it was like two 638 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: thousand years after we made the transition to the codex 639 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: finally we are transitioning back to the scroll, and he 640 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: thought this was just awful, not saying I necessarily agree 641 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: with that sentiment, though, there is something about like scrolling 642 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: down to read an article, say on a website, that 643 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: I don't really like as a reading format, Like it 644 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: is more pleasant to have the same article in a 645 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: format where you can just turn the pages. I like 646 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: the sequential nature of page turning. Um, there's something I mean, 647 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: maybe it's just two elementary you know that it feels 648 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: like I'm I'm I'm I'm taking care of a task 649 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: one after the either, one page at a time, in 650 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: a way where an endless scroll might seem intimidating. I 651 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: don't know, uh, Or maybe it's just this is what 652 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm used to and this is what I like to do, 653 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,280 Speaker 1: because like I'm when I'm using my kindle, there's certainly 654 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: more of a feeling of side to side, page to page, 655 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: and you know, you'd even have some sort of a 656 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: page count out there as well. Yeah, I agree. Okay, 657 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: so interesting side fact Plenty notes here he Plenty starts 658 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: describing a bunch of different kinds of paper. He's like, not, now, 659 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: I will tell you about the nine different kinds of papyrus. Uh, 660 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: thanks plenty, but he mentions one kind. He's telling about 661 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: the Egyptians describing this um high quality white papyrus as 662 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: what's called hieratic or this is sometimes translated as holy paper, 663 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: since it was reserved entirely for the use of religious books, 664 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: and the footnote in the Bostock and Riley translation of 665 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: the Natural History says quote the priests would not allow 666 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: it to be sold, lest it might be used for 667 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: profane writing. But after it was once written upon, it 668 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: was easily procurable. The Romans were in the habit of 669 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: purchasing it, largely in the latter state, and then washing 670 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: off the writing and using it as paper of the 671 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: finest quality. Hints it received the name of Augustus as 672 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: representing in Latin its Greek name hierradicus or sacred. In 673 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,439 Speaker 1: the length of time it became a common impression, as 674 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: here mentioned that this name was given in honor of 675 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 1: Augustus Caesar. But I think that first part is interesting, 676 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: so like if if their characterization is correct here that 677 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: like certain kinds of papyrus were guarded in a material 678 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: sense and regarded as holy because they would be used 679 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: at some point to write Holy Scripture on not because 680 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: anything had been written on them yet, but then once 681 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: something had already been written on them, then it was 682 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: no longer sacred, and then you could easily just get 683 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: it and I guess, wash off the Holy Scripture and 684 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: write whatever you wanted on it. Oh wow, that's interesting. 685 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: That reminds me of the I think it was a 686 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: two part episode. Maybe it's just a one part that 687 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: it did with did with Christian back in the day 688 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: on the idea of Grimore's of you know, books that 689 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: end up taking on sacred qualities, uh, you know, generally 690 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: because of the sacred contents that they have. Um, there 691 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,479 Speaker 1: is I remember there being one. Um we were talking 692 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: about a cash of Qurans that had been discovered and 693 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: uh and and part of the issue was is like 694 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: these books, these holy books have been used and reused 695 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: to the point where they were kind of falling apart. 696 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: They weren't really usable anymore, they weren't presentable, but they 697 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: were also sacred so they couldn't be destroyed. So they 698 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: were kind of walled away in in a building. And 699 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: then they were discovered much later. And if I remember correctly, uh, 700 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, they gave us some of the oldest examples 701 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: of the koran Um that we have been able to, 702 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, to to acquire. Uh. So Yeah, when you 703 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: start getting into the idea of of sacred information put 704 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: onto a material, a material that may itself be considered sacred, Uh, 705 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: everything gets gets very complicated. Yeah, that is interesting, Like 706 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: the the conceptual contagion that the the sacredness of the 707 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: content of what's written on the paper or the papyrus 708 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: or the ink or whatever eventually extends by contagion to 709 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: the physical form itself. It's not just that what is 710 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: written in here is holy, but like the actual physical 711 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: book is holy. This is such a weird concept, Like 712 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: it seems like the kind of thing that might be 713 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: utilized by like an artist. Like what if you had 714 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: what if you had a Bible, okay, like a you know, 715 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: a Catholic Bible, and you found out that it was 716 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,439 Speaker 1: made from from paper that had been recycled from pornography. Um, 717 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: like what how would how would we deally? I don't 718 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,879 Speaker 1: think we would particularly Like it would be a weird 719 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: thing to focus on today. Uh. It would also be 720 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: weird that you were, you know, making it exclusively from 721 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: pornography recyclings. But um, but would that even would that 722 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: begin to sort of creep into our idea of of 723 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: contagion that like the that this is this this book 724 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: is is profane, it's some sort of a blasphemy because 725 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: you made it on such recycled material. I feel like 726 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: a lot of modern religious people would probably would probably 727 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: house the distinction in the intent of the person who 728 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: made it, so it would be like, did you know 729 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: you were making making it out of this recycled paper 730 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: or not? Like it, I think most people today like 731 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: if they found that out but they knew it was 732 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: just recycled paper and the person had no intention of 733 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: making that particular transition, they wouldn't care, But they might 734 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: get annoyed at the idea that someone did this on purpose, right, 735 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: like if it were in a museum in New York 736 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: City or something. Um, But then again, imagine this. I 737 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: can easily see somebody, say like a televangelists marketing their 738 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: own Bible that they can guarantee is not made using 739 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: recycled pornography. If he would be like, yes, how have 740 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: I been using an impure Bible this whole time? There 741 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: might be some pornography in there right. Well, I mean, 742 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: if you've got somebody who's good at selling it, they'll 743 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: be good at selling it. Yeah. Okay, So I guess 744 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: to get back to papyrus. So how was papyrus written on? Well, 745 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: Howard mentions that the ancient Egyptians would write on pyrus 746 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: using reads or quills, often dipped in an ink made 747 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: out of charcoal deluded in water. Uh. And again a 748 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: reminder at this time we've mentioned this, but if you 749 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: wanted a copy of a book at this time, it 750 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: had to be written out by hand. You could not 751 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: get it from a printing press. And Howard mentions that 752 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: scribes and nhent Egypt would copy scrolls either by sight, 753 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: so you just have one copy of a book on 754 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, one part of your desk and another blank 755 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: scroll on the other part, and you just copy it 756 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: up by hand, or you'd have a book read aloud 757 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: and you'd have to copy it down from dictation, which 758 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: sounds even harder. But this was a slow and laborious process, 759 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: not just for the obvious reasons. You might imagine it 760 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: would also be slow and laborious to copy a book 761 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: in this way because there are also mechanical limitations like 762 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: you had to wait for the ink to dry as 763 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: you're going, and there's no backspace key if you make 764 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: a mistake, and so forth. But papyrus made out of 765 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: the read, the Cyprus papyrus planned it was a major 766 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: industry supply lying writing material to the broader Mediterranean world. 767 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: But but Howard identifies an interesting shift, and it begins 768 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: especially around the first century. There's there's some elements of 769 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: this shift in earlier centuries, but it really gets going 770 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: around the first century that there's this long running, major 771 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: shift from papyrus to parchment for writing material. Now why 772 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: this shift, Well, one explanation given by historians is a 773 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: basic shortage of supply. Again, papyrus. Writing material had to 774 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: be made of this specific plant, the read Cyprus papyrus, 775 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: and if there was a sudden scarcity of the read, 776 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,720 Speaker 1: that would mean a scarcity of the writing material for export. 777 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: But Howard also mentions that there were sort of pressures 778 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: put on Egypt by military incursions in the previous centuries. 779 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: And so whatever the cause of the dwindling supply of 780 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: exported papyrus around the first century, bookmaking people's elsewhere in 781 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: the Mediterranean, we're really we're really starting to seek out 782 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 1: an alternative, which they found in parchment and vellum. Now, 783 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: what are these substances. Basically, I think like paper made 784 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: out of treated animal skins. Parchment is made from untanned 785 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: sheep leather, and vellum is made from calf skin. So 786 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 1: to treat these animal skins for us as writing surfaces, first, 787 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: of course, you had to clean them. You had to 788 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: get all the biological gunk off, you know, all the 789 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: hair and stuff, and then they would they would clean 790 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: the smooth surface with applications of pumice and lime. And 791 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: Howard points out that this was a difficult process since 792 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: the animal skin had to be stretched and dried at 793 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,799 Speaker 1: the same time. So the goal was to stretch it 794 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: out in such a way that it wouldn't contract back 795 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: to its original shape once it was finished drying. And 796 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: there are actually several ways that parchment and vellum proved 797 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,879 Speaker 1: superior to papyrus as writing material. One way is that 798 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: they can be made pretty much anywhere. Papyrus was dependent 799 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: on Egypt, it was dependent on this Egyptian industry, especially 800 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: since it was made from a read native to the 801 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: Nile Alta area. Though I think there were papyrus or 802 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,280 Speaker 1: papyrus like products also made from some of the Mesopotamian 803 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 1: empires based on reed plants from the Tigris and Euphrates. 804 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was the same species of plant, 805 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: but it seems primarily papyrus was coming from Egypt. But nevertheless, 806 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: the ancient Romans were generally dependent on Egyptian papyrus for 807 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: their needs. Meanwhile, sheep and calves, they could be pretty 808 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 1: much anywhere. They were raised pretty much anywhere, so you 809 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: could always make parchment or villum locally. And Howard doesn't 810 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: mention this, but I've read in other sources that the 811 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,800 Speaker 1: process of making papyrus writing material was also a closely 812 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: guarded industrial secret, and I kind of wonder if this 813 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: might also have proved important in its decline. Yeah, you, 814 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: ultimately do you just need an alternative to that that 815 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: trade secret papyrus. So yeah, you turn to like, what 816 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: can I do? What are some other organic sources I 817 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 1: can source to turn into, uh, some thing that I 818 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: can write on right now? On top of this, there 819 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,279 Speaker 1: was some other benefits as well. Parchment and vellum were 820 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,399 Speaker 1: just more durable than papyrus. They held up better over 821 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: time and held up against wear and tear better. But 822 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,399 Speaker 1: finally there were aesthetic and practical reasons parchment works better 823 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: than papyrus. One, it was easier to write on without 824 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 1: the facially perpendicular fibers of the plant matter. Once you 825 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: had written on it, Also, the text stood out more 826 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: clearly from from the background than it did on papyrus. 827 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: And to some extent, parchment actually allowed scribes to erase 828 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: mistakes or other unwanted writing more easily than than papyrus 829 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: did I mean by virtue of it being just more 830 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: durable for starters, because we have to remember that I 831 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: think we went into this we talked about our on 832 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: our Invention episode about the pencil and the eraser. Like erasing, 833 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: uh is is often a a matter of taking away 834 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,360 Speaker 1: from the material upon which you have written. And so 835 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: if you're already dealing with fragile papyrus, there's there's less 836 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: you can do without destroying the paper totally. Uh So, So, 837 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: by about the fourth century CE, parchment had replaced papyrus 838 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,720 Speaker 1: for most written documents in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. 839 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: And so that's gonna play a very important part in 840 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 1: shaping the physical evolution of the book, especially once we 841 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: start talking about the form wars of scroll versus codex. 842 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: But there's something else we need to get into. I 843 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: guess at the beginning of the next episode, I think 844 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: we're running out of time for today. But parallel to 845 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,319 Speaker 1: the papyrus and parchment industry is being established in those 846 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,839 Speaker 1: regions in the west eastward in China, written documents had 847 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 1: found a home on a totally different writing material, and 848 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,800 Speaker 1: this would be paper. So maybe in the next episode 849 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: we should start off by looking at the paper industry. 850 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: Absolutely so, uh, definitely join us next time as we 851 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: continue this look at the history of the codex, the 852 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: history of paper, the history of writing itself also kind 853 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 1: of bound up into a well, not a single volume, 854 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: multiple volume, so you can think of each each episode 855 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: to the show as a volume, right, um, so join 856 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: us next time. In the meantime, if you would like 857 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,959 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 858 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: you know exactly where to find us. You can find 859 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: us wherever you get your podcasts. And what can you 860 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: do to support us? Well, you can rate, you can review, 861 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 1: you can subscribe. Huge thanks as always to our excellent 862 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 863 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 864 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 865 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 866 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 867 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 868 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,959 Speaker 1: more podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 869 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your favorite shows. 870 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,760 Speaker 1: Twenty three three Proper first Pas