1
00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,959
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Breaking news tonight, cutting and sawing,

2
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:17,759
Speaker 1: a lover is dismembered, the mom finds a head in

3
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 1: a bucket. Good evening, This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace.

4
00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. Ahead

5
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,760
Speaker 1: in a Bucket. Let me just start with that straight

6
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:37,240
Speaker 1: out to veteran trial lawyer criminal defense attorney Derek Smith

7
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 1: joining us and you can find him at Dwsmith Legal

8
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,839
Speaker 1: dot com. Derek, thank you for being with us. You know,

9
00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 1: when we were in law school, Derek at your law

10
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,760
Speaker 1: school on me at my own, we had all these

11
00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:54,600
Speaker 1: lofty legal thoughts, like all sorts of constitutional arguments and

12
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 1: theoretical back and forth about the meaning the founding Father's

13
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,040
Speaker 1: really intended. I never really thought through to the logical

14
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,120
Speaker 1: conclusion that I would be talking about ahead in a bucket,

15
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: did you.

16
00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,080
Speaker 2: No, No, Nancy, or else, I had have probably picked

17
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:17,000
Speaker 2: a different profession, you know, not something that you're aspiring

18
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:18,920
Speaker 2: to be. When we're in law school, look about all

19
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,320
Speaker 2: the constitutional law, all the ways we're going to change

20
00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 2: the world for the better.

21
00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,520
Speaker 3: Never thought we'd be the one on the other end, right, No, I.

22
00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 1: Never did think I would be discussing a head in

23
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:28,600
Speaker 1: a bucket.

24
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,840
Speaker 4: But you know, a special guest joining us.

25
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: We're very proud to have Chief Chris Davis, chief of

26
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,880
Speaker 1: the Green Bay PD, so previously in Portland, Oregon Police

27
00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,560
Speaker 1: Bureau and Arizona State University PD.

28
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 4: Wow, okay, what does that mean to me?

29
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,240
Speaker 1: You've seen a lot of action, but up until this case,

30
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 1: had you ever encountered a human head, a severed head

31
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:57,120
Speaker 1: in a bucket?

32
00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,480
Speaker 5: Uh? No, in all that time, this was a new

33
00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 5: one for me.

34
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,920
Speaker 1: When we were in training, for instance, when I was

35
00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,640
Speaker 1: in law school and arguing in moot court pretend court

36
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 1: to get ready to become a trial lawyer.

37
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 4: I guess we all knew it was out there.

38
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,960
Speaker 1: When you were in let's just say, cadet school or

39
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,000
Speaker 1: police training, you knew it existed. But it's a whole

40
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:24,239
Speaker 1: another thing. When it suddenly gets real and there's.

41
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,800
Speaker 5: A head in a bucket, you know it really is.

42
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,920
Speaker 5: And we try to train police officers to have skills

43
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,440
Speaker 5: that they can use in any situation they find themselves in.

44
00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 5: But the real world sometimes just has things in it

45
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 5: that we can't fully prepare you for.

46
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,040
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Chief Davis will so many things

47
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,280
Speaker 1: every day for me.

48
00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,080
Speaker 4: Unlike what Derek Smith said.

49
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:45,440
Speaker 1: If he thought he was going to have to talk

50
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:46,920
Speaker 1: about a head in the bucket, he may have chosen

51
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 1: another profession.

52
00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:48,080
Speaker 4: I would not.

53
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,280
Speaker 1: That would make me want to put bad guys in

54
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:57,680
Speaker 1: jail even more, even more intensely. But I'm not defending them.

55
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,160
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to get them out of jail.

56
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:00,680
Speaker 4: Davis.

57
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,120
Speaker 1: Another thing is, in all the years I've investigated, prosecuted,

58
00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 1: had gone to the more gone to crime scenes. I

59
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 1: never got sick to my stomach. I never felt queasy.

60
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,560
Speaker 1: I never broke down and cried. Other things more poignant

61
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 1: details get me upset, but the carnage doesn't. It kind

62
00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,040
Speaker 1: of makes me angry. It makes me want justice. It

63
00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,680
Speaker 1: makes me wonder why the bad guy wasn't in jail already,

64
00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,960
Speaker 1: because you don't go from zero to one hundred and

65
00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 1: ten mph overnight.

66
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 4: There had to be.

67
00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,560
Speaker 1: A lead up, unless way, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm crazy myself.

68
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 4: There's coburger, here's a PhD.

69
00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 1: Student, everybody thinks is meek and mild Mannard, and now

70
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,720
Speaker 1: for murders. So I guess from the outside looking in.

71
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,240
Speaker 1: Although it made been brewing for a long time. He

72
00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 1: did go to zero to one hundred and twenty mph

73
00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,120
Speaker 1: literally overnight, So I guess it can happen.

74
00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 5: Chief it can, And for us when we or something

75
00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,480
Speaker 5: like this, our job is to find out the truth

76
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,840
Speaker 5: so that we can refer the matter to our prosecutors,

77
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,920
Speaker 5: our partners in the DA's office, in the court system.

78
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,560
Speaker 5: But you know, when you encounter something like this, the

79
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 5: person's history can be interesting, but what you're really looking

80
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,480
Speaker 5: for is what can we prove actually happened in this instance.

81
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you if you didn't say what we're

82
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,760
Speaker 1: looking for is why, because I would, you know, beat

83
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,080
Speaker 1: my brains out. For about the first five years that

84
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,080
Speaker 1: I was a felony prosecutor in INTERCDI, Atlanta, I would

85
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,159
Speaker 1: look over at the defendant think why would you do

86
00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,159
Speaker 1: this and leave such a wake of pain trailing behind

87
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,400
Speaker 1: you just like a motor boat.

88
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 4: And then one day I was about into year five,

89
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,360
Speaker 4: I thought, why am I wasting.

90
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 1: My time trying to figure out what he was thinking

91
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 1: when he committed a double murder, A heinus double murder?

92
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:56,359
Speaker 4: Why am I even worried?

93
00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,600
Speaker 1: That's not an element of proof showing motive. So let's

94
00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,080
Speaker 1: get right to it, and let's start for so many

95
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:12,799
Speaker 1: violent crimes start with the nine to one one.

96
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 6: You.

97
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,920
Speaker 7: Said an officer at eight twenty nine, Stonebrook just woke

98
00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,280
Speaker 7: me up to swear that Calder subs ahead of her

99
00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:33,520
Speaker 7: son in a base by eighty nine Stony brooky eye right, yesty,

100
00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:35,320
Speaker 7: just so much.

101
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,000
Speaker 8: At a house department who.

102
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:42,160
Speaker 1: Plays okay, Derek Smith, a veteran trial lawyer, criminal defense attorney,

103
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:43,919
Speaker 1: which is its own breed lawyer.

104
00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,160
Speaker 4: Did you hear the nine one one up?

105
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,559
Speaker 1: The guy says, my girlfriend just woke me up swear

106
00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,040
Speaker 1: she found her the severed hit of her son in

107
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 1: the basement. And what does the nine one one dispatch say?

108
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 1: Can you repeat the address, sir? And he says eighteen

109
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,600
Speaker 1: nine is Tony Brook And the guy dispatch says, st n.

110
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,480
Speaker 4: E What I mean? What? What is he brain dead?

111
00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,160
Speaker 1: The guy just hears that there's a head in a bucket,

112
00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 1: the head is in the basement.

113
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 4: He's like, can you spell stony please? Is there an

114
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:21,240
Speaker 4: E in that?

115
00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:22,880
Speaker 3: What we gotta understand?

116
00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,640
Speaker 2: I mean they're on the other end of the emergency

117
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,359
Speaker 2: phone call trying to understand what's going on too. You know,

118
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 2: it's not every day you get a phone call like

119
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,880
Speaker 2: that that there's something in the head in a basket.

120
00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,080
Speaker 2: But they're trying to de escalate the situation too. They

121
00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,520
Speaker 2: want to make sure the person on the other end

122
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,720
Speaker 2: is calm enough to at least relay the information about

123
00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,799
Speaker 2: what's going on, especially when you hear something.

124
00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:44,400
Speaker 3: Heinous like this.

125
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,040
Speaker 2: Now, you want to make sure the person calling you

126
00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,520
Speaker 2: is safe enough in what's going on. Obviously the person

127
00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,520
Speaker 2: with the head in the basket has another issue going on,

128
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,400
Speaker 2: but gets more into that later.

129
00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,599
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you, I'm always amazed and a little

130
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,680
Speaker 1: confounded by the way dispatch responds.

131
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,479
Speaker 4: But hey, you know what, I hear what you're saying.

132
00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,360
Speaker 4: Let's hear more of that nine one one call here again.

133
00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,960
Speaker 7: I don't happy my girls swears that she's follow her

134
00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,600
Speaker 7: as severed ahead of her son at the baby a bucket.

135
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:16,600
Speaker 7: I went down.

136
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 9: I can't go with them.

137
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 7: I lead. That's kind of a free though. We have

138
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 7: to say that, yeah, and who who is she claiming?

139
00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:32,520
Speaker 10: Her son?

140
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 3: Al her son twenty four, twenty twenty five.

141
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 1: Now to doctor Sherry Schwartz, joining US forensic psychologists specializing

142
00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 1: in capital mitigation. You can find her at panthermitigation dot com.

143
00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,080
Speaker 1: She's the author of Criminal Behavior and my favorite of hers,

144
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:57,360
Speaker 1: where law and psychology intersect issues in legal psychology. Doctor Sherry,

145
00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Did you notice the

146
00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 1: guy hear the mom's boyfriend, he's not going down and

147
00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,560
Speaker 1: looking himself.

148
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,360
Speaker 4: He's saying, she's claiming it's her son. What's with him?

149
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 1: Why doesn't he go down there and find out? And

150
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,559
Speaker 1: he's sounding like he's disbelieving the mom.

151
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,200
Speaker 9: Well, it is something that would cause a state of

152
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,600
Speaker 9: disbelief in some people, especially if they haven't seen it.

153
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 9: And I'm guessing that he didn't want to go down

154
00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,040
Speaker 9: to see it, because if it's true, it's absolutely horrific.

155
00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:32,079
Speaker 1: Uh.

156
00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,360
Speaker 9: You know, and imagine what mom was going through that

157
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 9: she sees her son's head in a bucket in the basement.

158
00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,000
Speaker 9: So I think that's a natural reaction, although I think

159
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 9: most of us think we would run down there to

160
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 9: see what was going on.

161
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:56,359
Speaker 1: So finally Mom takes the phone listen a bucket?

162
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 7: What makes you think? At what did you see? Calculating Okay,

163
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 7: where's the uh, where's the rest of the body?

164
00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,200
Speaker 1: At No, I am you're hearing the mother of the victim.

165
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,680
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering doctor Sherry Schwartz if she is in shock,

166
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:27,120
Speaker 1: because I notice that she can't say it again. The

167
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,199
Speaker 1: dispatch says, what did you see? And instead of recounting

168
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,560
Speaker 1: it again, she says, exactly what I told you. It's

169
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,440
Speaker 1: like I've said it once. I don't even like saying

170
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 1: it right now. She didn't want to say again, my

171
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 1: son's head is in a bucket. She won't say it again.

172
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,760
Speaker 1: She can't bring herself to say it. What is that response?

173
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,120
Speaker 9: It could be exactly what you just said, Nancy. It

174
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,359
Speaker 9: could be a state of shock because she sounds remarkably

175
00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,800
Speaker 9: calm and unfazed, which makes a lot of people jump

176
00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,280
Speaker 9: to the conclusion that, well, maybe she had something to

177
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 9: do with it. But the reality is it could very

178
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,360
Speaker 9: well be a state of shock. I mean, imagine how

179
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,480
Speaker 9: shocking to see a stranger's head in a bucket, let

180
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:11,600
Speaker 9: alone your own child.

181
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,560
Speaker 4: And also to doctor Thomas Coyne joining us.

182
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,679
Speaker 1: He is the chief Medical Examiner District to a medical

183
00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,400
Speaker 1: Examiner's office, State of Florida. Never a lack of business

184
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,520
Speaker 1: in Florida. It's like the crime vortex, believe it or not.

185
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 1: Forensic pathologists and neuropathologist toxicologist, and you can find him

186
00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:35,000
Speaker 1: on x at doctor t M Coin see a doctor

187
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,880
Speaker 1: con Also, I think it would take a mother to

188
00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:45,160
Speaker 1: identify that, because when a head is severed, it no

189
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:51,520
Speaker 1: longer really looks like the person you knew. It largely

190
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 1: becomes disfigured looking almost immediately.

191
00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,840
Speaker 4: Why is that, well, it certainly can.

192
00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,000
Speaker 6: I mean you lose the muscle tone, the normal lively

193
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,800
Speaker 6: appearance of the face, you know, either that sort of

194
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,840
Speaker 6: flat affect, the normal expressions go away. But also there

195
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,960
Speaker 6: could be a little bit of decomposition that occurs, especially

196
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,120
Speaker 6: if the death occurred hours or days prior. You lose

197
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 6: all the fluid out of the out of the head

198
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 6: or the blood in particular, so the coloration may be different.

199
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,959
Speaker 6: So yeah, and it's out of context for what we

200
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 6: normally expect to see. And I'm assuming shock played a

201
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:26,240
Speaker 6: role in that.

202
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 4: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

203
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:44,000
Speaker 1: Joining me now, Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave,

204
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.

205
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:46,640
Speaker 4: Lead me up to this point.

206
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,160
Speaker 1: What would lead a mom to just wander down to

207
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 1: the basement and look in a bucket?

208
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,520
Speaker 11: Well, in reality, she woke up about three fifteen, three

209
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 11: twenty in the morning, because she heard a door shut downstairs,

210
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 11: and then she heard a car start out in the driveway.

211
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:03,240
Speaker 4: It's enough to.

212
00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,200
Speaker 11: Wake any of us up. So she went down to

213
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,839
Speaker 11: see what was going on. And she goes all the

214
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,160
Speaker 11: way down the stairs and doesn't see anything. It looks

215
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,480
Speaker 11: like it's a little disturbed. They're, you know, a little

216
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,920
Speaker 11: bit different than normal. It's when she turns around to

217
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 11: head back up the stairs she glances down to her

218
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 11: right and she sees this bucket and it's got a

219
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,840
Speaker 11: towel on it. Nancy, and being a mother and being

220
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 11: curious and knowing that's not a normal way for it

221
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 11: to be, she actually looks inside, and that's how it

222
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 11: all happened. She I can't imagine me waking up at

223
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 11: three o'clock plus in the morning and then all of

224
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,240
Speaker 11: a sudden, you've got a head and a bucket just

225
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,559
Speaker 11: goes beyond anything any of us can imagine.

226
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,440
Speaker 1: Well, of course, Dave mac I'm asking for probative or

227
00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,680
Speaker 1: evidentiary reasons, because most people would not just wake up

228
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,520
Speaker 1: out of a dense sleep and think, oh, let me

229
00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,720
Speaker 1: go down in the basement and look for a bucket.

230
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,000
Speaker 1: But because that would indicate some degree of guilt.

231
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 4: Right.

232
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,960
Speaker 1: But here the mom was woken up by the sound

233
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,679
Speaker 1: of a door slamming, and then she went looking and

234
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,560
Speaker 1: to you, Chief Chris Day joining us chief of the

235
00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,680
Speaker 1: Green BAYPD. Excellent reputation. By the way, Chief Davis, again,

236
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,479
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. The smallest things are probative.

237
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,760
Speaker 1: They prove something. For instance, if you pull up to

238
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:32,440
Speaker 1: your house and you notice the front door is slightly

239
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,520
Speaker 1: a jar. It may only be an inch, but you

240
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,280
Speaker 1: certainly did not leave your front door unlocked and open.

241
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 4: Right.

242
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 1: So it's a small thing, but in our world it's

243
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,600
Speaker 1: a major red flag. So the moment Mom sees a

244
00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,880
Speaker 1: bucket sitting out in the floor, I mean it's her place.

245
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,480
Speaker 1: She wasn't there before she went to bed the last

246
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,160
Speaker 1: time she was in the basement. Now it's there. Now

247
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,640
Speaker 1: I understand why Mom wakes up in the middle of

248
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,200
Speaker 1: the night, goes downstairs and looks in a bucket, because

249
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,280
Speaker 1: if I didn't know those facts, I would think she

250
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:09,280
Speaker 1: may have had something.

251
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 4: To do with it.

252
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, and especially at the beginning of investigation like this,

253
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,319
Speaker 5: those are the kind of details that are the police

254
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 5: officers look for and You're right. The whole case really

255
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,440
Speaker 5: can turn on a small detail like the condition of

256
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 5: the door, when whoever is responsible for this left the bucket.

257
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,119
Speaker 5: You know, obviously we would have a lot of questions

258
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,680
Speaker 5: for mom in this situation about what normal looks like

259
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 5: at their house, to try to find those details that

260
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 5: don't fit the norm for them in their home.

261
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: And to Derek Smith, whenever someone is quote clairvoyant, they're

262
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:48,440
Speaker 1: usually guilty.

263
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,800
Speaker 4: Let's just think this through. Okay. Remember O J. Simpson

264
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,520
Speaker 4: Orenthal James since in the.

265
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:59,040
Speaker 1: Double Killer he had a dream he said where he

266
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:05,600
Speaker 1: killed Cole Brown. Okay, then remember Scott Peterson. He's such

267
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 1: a great example for so many facets of crime. He

268
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,000
Speaker 1: told his lover Amber Fry, this was going to be

269
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,520
Speaker 1: his first Christmas without his wife Lacey, that he was

270
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,200
Speaker 1: a widower, and then two weeks later, bam, it was

271
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 1: Christmas and Lacey was dead.

272
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 4: Either he is clairvoyant or he's a killer.

273
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 1: And there are many many other examples of when a

274
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,360
Speaker 1: murder defendant suddenly has a streak of clairvoyance. The mom

275
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,080
Speaker 1: here had a reason for waking up. She has nothing

276
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 1: to do with this. But if I didn't know it

277
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,800
Speaker 1: led up to it. I absolutely would have looked at her.

278
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,160
Speaker 1: I totally would have given her the hairy eyeball.

279
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Nancy, you can I can understand, you know, when

280
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,720
Speaker 2: a defendant comes to me and saying, hey, you know,

281
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 2: things weren't going right. I was fantasizing about these things,

282
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,400
Speaker 2: but I didn't really want it to happen in reality,

283
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 2: you know, I mean just talking about O. J.

284
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 3: Simpson.

285
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,640
Speaker 2: Come on, he's not guilty, right, jury of his peers

286
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,200
Speaker 2: found I'm not guilty. Just because he was fantasizing or

287
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,400
Speaker 2: having premonitions about these things doesn't mean it's actually happening,

288
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,240
Speaker 2: and the state has the burden to prove it.

289
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:08,520
Speaker 3: Right.

290
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 1: What did you just say? Did you say Simpson is

291
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,960
Speaker 1: not guilty? And what about premonitions?

292
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 3: Just because you're you're fantasizing and having.

293
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 4: Thoughts on you can't keep a straight face.

294
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 2: Oh, we're just having a conversation here, aren't we. You know,

295
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,400
Speaker 2: we're just talking about it. You know a lot of

296
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 2: times even divorce, let's say about a divorce, you know,

297
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 2: a spouse has been wrong, even cheating on and they're

298
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 2: just fantasizing about their husband meeting a traumatic or a

299
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,360
Speaker 2: drastic ending to his life. Doesn't mean they want it

300
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 2: to happen. But you know, we're humans, we have emotion.

301
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 4: I want to see your client lists right now, your.

302
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,400
Speaker 1: Divorce client list right now, potentially because you just may

303
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,080
Speaker 1: have let a cat out of a bag, clawing angry cat.

304
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,000
Speaker 1: So we're talking about mom, what could possibly have woken

305
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:54,400
Speaker 1: her up in the middle of the night, and she

306
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 1: just suddenly comes upon a bucket with a head in it.

307
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 4: This explains it all. Listen to Mom on the nine one.

308
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,199
Speaker 1: One call because I want to hear if you believe

309
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:07,880
Speaker 1: or I do.

310
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:14,119
Speaker 7: And then I hurt my doors and heard me man start,

311
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,120
Speaker 7: and I like out scared, and I looked at the bathroom,

312
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,520
Speaker 7: the lights around in the basement, I heard them mops

313
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 7: and I looked around there. But then when I turned

314
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 7: around to come back up, you have a bucket, how

315
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,800
Speaker 7: little bit? And I'm like, oh great, that's why there

316
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,800
Speaker 7: not here against their packs. It in a bucket, And

317
00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,320
Speaker 7: I looked at is in that bucket?

318
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:37,680
Speaker 3: What's your fun thing?

319
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:39,600
Speaker 7: Baderio.

320
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,920
Speaker 1: You know it's part of the law and criminal cases

321
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 1: that the prosecutor or the defense can never ask the

322
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 1: jury to put themselves in the shoes of the victim

323
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,080
Speaker 1: that cannot be argued. That's reversible error, and if you

324
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,400
Speaker 1: do it, you're screwed technical legal term. But the more

325
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,320
Speaker 1: I think about this, doctor Sherry Schwartz, when I'm listening

326
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,159
Speaker 1: to the mom, I can't help but put myself in

327
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,680
Speaker 1: her shoes. I've got a son, I've got a daughter.

328
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to even let my mind go to

329
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 1: this place where this mom finds her son Shad beheaded

330
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 1: with his head in a bucket. I mean, I don't

331
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,280
Speaker 1: think that's anything you can ever get over for the

332
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:35,280
Speaker 1: rest of your life.

333
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 4: No, most certainly not.

334
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 9: And imagine she was in the house because she was

335
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,320
Speaker 9: able to go downstairs and see what was going on.

336
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,920
Speaker 9: So the shock, the guilt, the grief, the trauma, these

337
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,400
Speaker 9: are all very real things and they don't go away.

338
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 9: People say, you know that the case will bring closure.

339
00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 9: That's closure is basically a myth for victims, victims of

340
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,919
Speaker 9: homicide and trauma. And when you were the one who

341
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 9: discovers not even an entire body intact, but the head

342
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,800
Speaker 9: of your child in a bucket, I'm not sure that

343
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 9: that's some an image that ever leaves your mind.

344
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,200
Speaker 1: What led up to the moment we are convinced. I'm

345
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 1: convinced the mom had nothing to do with this. I

346
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 1: don't think her boyfriend had.

347
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:25,760
Speaker 4: Anything to do with that.

348
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 1: When you're hearing on nine one one, judging by his

349
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 1: demeanor with nine one one and the words he's using.

350
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 4: What he's saying, but let's listen to someone or no.

351
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,360
Speaker 7: He was your yesterday with some chick and then all

352
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 7: of a sudden, nobody is here. And she came up

353
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 7: to use the restaurant coat time, and she keeps calling

354
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,640
Speaker 7: and calling. Now she says that she hears the phone

355
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 7: doll there too. Is she with you right now? Yes?

356
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 1: Yes, So there's love for I don't know what to do,

357
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,920
Speaker 1: and the victim's mom elaborates on the last movements off

358
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: her son.

359
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 4: Listen, when the last time.

360
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 7: You saw your son out? Well, I guess Wednesday, So

361
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 7: I think him up coming to gads on my maid,

362
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 7: and you know, normally stay here, stay or forfeits. Got

363
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,119
Speaker 7: left the pawn tree even here a couple of hours

364
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 7: and give up with Taylor and they coming to day

365
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,399
Speaker 7: Taylor's that girl.

366
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 1: Police immediately converge on the scene, and this is what

367
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: we learn.

368
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 10: They see I went downstairs at the bottom of the

369
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 10: stairs to the right there was a green bucket with

370
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,199
Speaker 10: a shower towel on top of it. Just to verify

371
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 10: we had an actual head in a bucket. Lifted the

372
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 10: towel off and there was in fact a human severed

373
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 10: head in the bucket.

374
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 1: From our friends at w b A Y TV two

375
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,640
Speaker 1: by the Chief Chris Davis, chief of the Green Bait

376
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,880
Speaker 1: PD Chief. Have you noticed I have that in many

377
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: murder cases you see the killer try to hide the face,

378
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 1: if not the whole body, but at least the face

379
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 1: of the dead person. For instance, in this case, the

380
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 1: killer not only killed the young man, the son Shay,

381
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 1: but then it puts a towel over the bucket. I've

382
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: seen cases where leaves were put over the victim's face.

383
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,719
Speaker 1: In the double killing at Delphi of Little Abby and Libby,

384
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 1: twigs and leaves were put over the girl's bodies, particularly

385
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: the face.

386
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 4: I even had a case chief where.

387
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 1: A mother was killed many people believe, by her daughter,

388
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: her adult daughter, and she left allegedly left the mom's

389
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: naked body on mom's bed and then shoved a white

390
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 1: wicker trash basket over the mom's head.

391
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 4: Have you noticed that? I mean I'm just a lawyer.

392
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: I'm not a shrink, but that's got to mean something psychologically.

393
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that is very common at crime scenes.

394
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 5: And you know, you can speculate as to why that is.

395
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 5: I think, you know, we're accustomed because we're social, social

396
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 5: animals and so, and the way we interact with people

397
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 5: is face to face. And I think at some level

398
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 5: what's going on with someone in that situation is they

399
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 5: don't want to look the person in the eye that

400
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 5: they just committed this ultimate violation of that person too.

401
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 4: So I don't quite get it. Have you ever seen it?

402
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: Derek Smith, veteran defense attorney, where the head or the

403
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: face is covered. I've seen it time after time after time.

404
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: They am I put a blanket over the victim. They

405
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: might put a sweater over the face.

406
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 4: It's almost as if it's instinctive.

407
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 1: You know what, How before a dog sits down, it

408
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 1: goes around and around and around and then it sits down.

409
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 4: Why don't know, but it happens. I don't know what

410
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 4: to make of it.

411
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: But in this case, you've got a severed head and

412
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 1: a bucket. What you think putting a tea towel over

413
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 1: It's gonna make it go away. Nobody's gonna notice it.

414
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: Well, obviously not if it's something like just a tea

415
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: towel over a dead body. But I mean, from my experience,

416
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: I've seen just you know, especially emotional type crimes and

417
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: specifically murders and things of that nature. After it's done,

418
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: there's a shock, there's a feeling of regret, and you're right,

419
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 2: they just covered up because they don't want it.

420
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:43,719
Speaker 3: They don't want to think of it anymore.

421
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: They want to obviously besides hiding a body and trying

422
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: to get away with the crime, they don't want to

423
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: They don't want to face the reality of what they've

424
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: just done, so they cover it up and just put

425
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: it away in their mind and hope it goes away.

426
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 3: But no, it doesn't work like that.

427
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: Finding your son's head, a severed head in a bucket

428
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: covered with a tea title in your basement. Again, I

429
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: don't think the mom can ever come back from that. Dismemberments,

430
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: dismemberments of dead bodies quite the anomaly, but happens more

431
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: often than I want to think.

432
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 4: For instance, the case of Joel Guy Junior.

433
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 12: Joel and Lisa Guy were found deceased in their residence.

434
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 12: The parents are believed to have been murdered between late

435
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 12: Friday night, the twenty fifth and midday on Saturday, the

436
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 12: twenty sixth. Both suffered multiple vicious stab wounds as well

437
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 12: as dismemberment. Joel Junior was visiting from Louisiana. He arrived

438
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 12: in Knoxville on Wednesday, the twenty seconds and departed on Sunday,

439
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 12: the twenty seventh. A welfare check initially called in by

440
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 12: Lisa's coworkers on the twenty eight led to discovery of

441
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 12: multiple gruesome crime scenes throughout the residence. Joel Junior placed

442
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 12: portions of the remains in an acid based solution in

443
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 12: an attempt to destroy evidence.

444
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: He actually put his mom's head in a cooking pot

445
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: and was cooking it on the stove. To doctor Sherry Schwartz,

446
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: and boy, do I need a shrink, renowned forensic psychologist.

447
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: There's the mind of a killer, that's one thing, But

448
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: the mind of a killer that then dismembers as a

449
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: whole another animal. What is the motivation? What goads someone

450
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: to dismember a body? And it's not just disposal, because

451
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: in this case, the body was dismembered and then left

452
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: in a bucket in the basement to be found. So

453
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: the dismemberment means something psychologically, but what.

454
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 9: Well. Traditional wisdom is that it's to conceal the crime,

455
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 9: but you're right, it's not just about that. It could

456
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 9: very much be a fascination with knowing what it's like

457
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 9: to kill somebody and cut them off, which is really

458
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 9: bizarre in something that most of us can't understand, but

459
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 9: it's a fact people will do that, and there's a

460
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 9: level of viciousness there. In this case, what strikes me

461
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 9: is covering the head in the bucket, to me, is

462
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 9: not about not so much about oh, I can't deal

463
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 9: with what I've done, because understand that when somebody takes

464
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 9: it to this level, they're not concerned with the well

465
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 9: being of anyone else. But leaving that head behind like

466
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 9: that was very much to be about making sure the

467
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 9: family did discover it and wanting to inflict pain. So

468
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 9: that could be another aspect of dismemberment.

469
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: Completely eviscerting, destroying the victim's body once they're already dead.

470
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: To doctor Thomas Coin, joining US Chief Medical Examiner District

471
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: to Emmy's office, Florida, in the case, we were just

472
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: talking about Joel Guy. He had been told his family

473
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: was going to cut him off. The parents were retiring

474
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: and they needed the little money that they had left

475
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: to support themselves, so he would have to make a

476
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: living now. He had been going to school and school,

477
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: and I'm all about education, but he was in school

478
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: for like ten years and didn't have a job. I

479
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: guess he stayed home and played dungeons and dragons or

480
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: mortal combat. I don't know, but whatever, he was angry

481
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: because he was going to be cut off. Listen to

482
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: this description from doctor Amy Hawes, the medical examiner in

483
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: that case. His mother was dismembered. Her head was severed

484
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: from her body, her arms disarticulated at the shoulders.

485
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 4: And you know what, coin I would not just say

486
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 4: to the jury dismembered.

487
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: Oh no, they have to hear every fact because every

488
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: minute the dismemberment continues is more men's ray intent malice,

489
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: which goes.

490
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 4: To murder one.

491
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: And yes, I know, before you jump in, Derek Smith,

492
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: that the dismemberment happens after the crime, but this shows

493
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: frame of mind, arms disarticulated, legs disarticulated.

494
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 4: At the knee.

495
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 7: Uh.

496
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: The dad was also dismembered mister guy, his legs disarticulated

497
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: at the hips, her head completely severed, her arms completely severed.

498
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 4: This takes a long time, dtor coin.

499
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 6: Long time and energy. Yeah, there's a lot of tissue

500
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 6: to cut through, especially going through the hip. It's difficult

501
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 6: even you know, during the autopsy, if I'm trying to

502
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 6: disarticulate a hip to look for trauma, it takes a

503
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 6: little bit of an effort.

504
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 3: So yes, not an easy process.

505
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: No, no, And it.

506
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 4: Indicates a male killer.

507
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: The instances of female killers that dismember very very low,

508
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: almost non existent. And this behavior is not within one

509
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: certain type of socioeconomic level. It crosses race, it crosses education,

510
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: it crosses money. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, a mom

511
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: finds her son's severed head in a bucket in a

512
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: basement with a tea towel covering the top of the bucket.

513
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 4: Who did it? If we don't think it's mom or boyfriend?

514
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: That leads me to a girlfriend, I've got a pretty

515
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: good reason for blaming her.

516
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 4: Listen, those were the ibelacked out during that time. But

517
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 4: she needs time to think, think about what.

518
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: Why isn't she upset her lover's head is in a

519
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: bucket in the basement, covered by a tea towel. That

520
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: from our friends at WBAYTV. Blacked out.

521
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 4: Derek Smith. That's convenient.

522
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: She's having sex with her boyfriend at one moment she

523
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: blacks out and suddenly right there in the basement, his

524
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: head's in a bucket.

525
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: Funny how that works? She blacked out. Derek.

526
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: Please tell me you haven't used the blackout defense. I

527
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: bet you have, haven't you.

528
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't necessarily call it the blackout defense. I

529
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 2: would say that, you know, chemically, there was too much

530
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: stress from knowing what just happened, realizing that, you know,

531
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 2: the person she loves is now gone forever, and she

532
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: can't take the shock and passes out. You know, there's

533
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: a lot of things that can lead up to that

534
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: that can put a person into a situation where they

535
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: no longer have control of themselves.

536
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 3: Are the faculties they pass out. It's over.

537
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 4: Wow, you know what.

538
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: She seems perfectly in control, and I just saw her

539
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: pulling a kim Kay and doing awesome selfie. Wow, she

540
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: knows how to do that, but yet blacks out, blacks out,

541
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: and she says, I need time to think Okay, listen

542
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: to more of telor she business.

543
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 4: As she went on, what it could go up and down?

544
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: Okay from our friends at w b A Y to

545
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 1: Chief Chris Davis joining us, Chief green Bay PD, how

546
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: many times have you had a suspect black out at

547
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: just the critical moment?

548
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 5: Surprisingly often? And as you say, usually that's a pretty

549
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 5: good red flag for investigators. This is somebody who probably

550
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 5: did it.

551
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 4: Chief Davis.

552
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: Also, and I'm certainly not the church lady. People can

553
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: have sex, however they want to have sex as long

554
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: as it's consensual. But isn't it true, Chief Davis, that

555
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: the Green Bay Police interrogated the girlfriend If you want

556
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: to still call her that tell us your business. And

557
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: she describes how she likes to strangle her boyfriend during

558
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: sex with a dog chain, placing the chain around his

559
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: neck and then quote walking him like a dog. When

560
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: asked if the boyfriend likes it, she says, I have

561
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: no idea.

562
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 4: Did that happen?

563
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 5: Chief, Yes, that's all true.

564
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: What exactly did she say about how she liked to

565
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: strangle her boyfriend with a dog chain, a metal dog chain.

566
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 5: She made a comment to investigators that she would she

567
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 5: and her boyfriend would use this dog chain to engage

568
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 5: in autoeroticism where they would get him just to the

569
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 5: point of passing out.

570
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 4: Chief, would you repeat that place?

571
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 5: She did tell investigators that this was something that the

572
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 5: two of them engaged in together, that she would choke

573
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 5: him with this dog chain until he was almost to

574
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 5: the point of passing out.

575
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: And he liked it.

576
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 5: Uh, we'll never know, but that she believed he did.

577
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 13: Apparently again convenient listen in the basement with the house

578
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 13: of themselves, Theorian and Shad Business engage in sexual intercourse

579
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 13: as well as erotic asphyxiation, something the couple has done before.

580
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 8: In previous encounters, they have used metal chains, and she

581
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 8: Business proceeds to use a metal dog leash to strangle Shad.

582
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 8: Theorian sher Business continues to strangle Theorian until he starts

583
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 8: to cough up blood, then continues to choke him with

584
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 8: her bare hands for three to five more minutes until

585
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 8: Theorian is dead.

586
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: She stated that this was all consensual, that he had

587
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,959
Speaker 1: done this before, but I doubt before he started coughing

588
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: up blood during the erotic.

589
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 5: Asphyxiation, right, I doubt that as well.

590
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 4: You're being extremely tight lipped on this and I think

591
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 4: I know why.

592
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 11: Listen, Chad Theorian is dead, but Taylorsha Business continues to

593
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 11: perform for the next several hours. In the morning, shab

594
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 11: Business positions the body on the bed and, using knives

595
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 11: she finds in the house, including Cerretti breadknife, decapitates theory

596
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 11: in over a bucket and a storage toat to contain

597
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 11: the blood. Dumping the blood down the basement shower drain,

598
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 11: shab Business removes all the organs from his body and

599
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 11: places them in plastic bags cardboard boxes the toat used

600
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 11: earlier for blood, and places the head in the bucket.

601
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 4: I mean, don't you just want to book her right

602
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 4: there and say this is done. I can't take it

603
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 4: anymore in here?

604
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: You do, in your heart, you do.

605
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 5: But you also have a job to do as a

606
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 5: police officer, and you know you have to anticipate an

607
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 5: adversarial process later on in court. And that means that

608
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 5: for as long as it takes, and in this case,

609
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 5: this took quite a while, you have to process that

610
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 5: entire scene and be very thorough because those small details

611
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 5: matter when this case goes to court, and it's especially

612
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 5: important for the family of the victim to get you know,

613
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 5: you never get closure out of something like this, but

614
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 5: to at least try to bring some justice to this situation.

615
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 5: But as you learn pretty early as a police officer

616
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 5: that sometimes you have to just suspend disbelief, remember that

617
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 5: you have a job to do and do it the

618
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 5: right way.

619
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 1: In an extremely rare scenario world wide, a female tailorshi

620
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: business is charged with murder and decapitation and full dismemberment

621
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: of the victim, Shad.

622
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 4: But her violence doesn't end there. Look what happens in court.

623
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 4: Out of the blue, she attacks her lawyer. That's twenty

624
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 4: twenty three. You have to have multiple.

625
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: Sheriffs, three male sheriffs surround her. That's our friends at

626
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: ABC seven in Chicago.

627
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 4: What brought that on?

628
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 11: Dave mack No, she didn't want to go with certain

629
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 11: things as a defense strategy, and she didn't like the

630
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 11: way he was representing her. So instead of talking in

631
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 11: a normal way, she just attacked. Seems like that's her

632
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 11: normal way of dealing with things. Just get physical in

633
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 11: a hurry.

634
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 4: Okay, that was in twenty twenty three.

635
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: When you take a look at her posing for that selfie,

636
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 1: it seems hard to reconcile that photo with what we're.

637
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 4: Seeing in court.

638
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: That was in twenty twenty three with that lawyer. But

639
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: it ain't over yet. Okay, she's doing it again. That's

640
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: for our friends at Court TV. That is a different lawyer, right.

641
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 4: Dave Mack.

642
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 11: She actually because as soon as she attacks the attorney,

643
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 11: they drop away. I mean she's getting you know, attorneys

644
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 11: provided to her, and you know, once she attacks, there's

645
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 11: nothing they can do with her. On top of that,

646
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 11: when the next guy comes in, he asks the judge

647
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 11: to accuse himself from the case because well he saw

648
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 11: the attack.

649
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 4: Okay.

650
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: And again it's not over yet. Here she's coming into

651
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: court again. She's coming into court with a spit maask

652
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: on and she is cuffed and she looks angry. Isn't

653
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: it true, Dave Matt that she also attacked a nurse

654
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: and a jail employee.

655
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 12: She did.

656
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 11: Nancy, She had a somehow got a staple in her arm,

657
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 11: and they brought her to the nurses station in the

658
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 11: jail in the prison and as soon as she's sitting there,

659
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 11: you know, in the chair, the woman got the nurse

660
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 11: uses the tweezers to get the staple out and the

661
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 11: minute the tweezers touch the staple, she business attacks. She

662
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 11: throws the nurse as far as she can, grabs a

663
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 11: metal tray and starts swinging it, pounding on everybody a share.

664
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 11: One of the guards there was able to put hands

665
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 11: on her and get her in to the wall and

666
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 11: then eventually get her on the ground, but it was

667
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 11: it took a few minutes. It was not a quick

668
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 11: in and out process. It took time to get her

669
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 11: under control. She just wouldn't stop, Chief Davis.

670
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: If this woman ever gets out of jail, you do

671
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: know she's going to kill somebody else, right.

672
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's fair to say she's demonstrated that

673
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 5: she's a pretty serious threat to public safety and Chief Davis.

674
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: You know, when you see her, for instance, taking that selfie,

675
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: she looks so tiny and petite, it's very hard to

676
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: look at her and realize she is a stone cold killer, Chief,

677
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: But you encounter.

678
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 8: That every day, we do.

679
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 5: You know, most people that we encounter in our business

680
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 5: who get arrested are fairly normal folks. But every once

681
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 5: in a while you run into somebody who is just

682
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 5: a dangerous human being.

683
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: This case is on appeal, God forbid a new trial

684
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: is ordered, the state will again build its case. If

685
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: you know or think you know anything about this case,

686
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: please dial nine two zero four four eight three two

687
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 1: hundred and tailorship business.

688
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 4: Where you are right now in the pen.

689
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: It's just a little pit stop on your way to

690
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: hell an'sy Grace signing off Goodnes