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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: All of these the.

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Speaker 3: Grains right here, you're Jackie there.

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Speaker 4: We're in a cemetery in a Virginian thunderstorm.

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Speaker 5: How fitting is this?

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Speaker 1: It's very fitting because this story is about a big

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Speaker 1: storm that brewed between two Virginia families in eighteen fifty nine.

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Speaker 1: One night of threats and violence triggered a feud that

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Speaker 1: would go on to kill three people in the same family.

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Speaker 1: This story is about domestic abuse, a child custody fight,

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Speaker 1: and most importantly, family loyalty. This feud wasn't between the

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Speaker 1: Hatfields and the McCoys. Their strife lasted for generations. This

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Speaker 1: feud seemed to swim up and then explode much more quickly.

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Speaker 6: So j.

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Speaker 7: Here, this feud is part of our our local law here.

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Speaker 7: I mean, people know about it.

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Speaker 1: Corporal it definitely says I think it says.

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Speaker 8: It looks like it says Addison to me. So who

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Speaker 8: would that? What would that be?

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Speaker 1: I'm exploring a private cemetery in southern Virginia with descendants

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Speaker 1: of one of the families involved in the feud, the Witchers.

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Speaker 1: They were certainly the most notorious of the two families.

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Speaker 1: So this is your grandfather, uh huh, okay, and that's

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Speaker 1: your great grandfather.

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Speaker 8: I'm clear now, I think yeah.

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Speaker 9: And this is also when uncle.

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Speaker 6: This is your mom and dad.

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Speaker 10: Okay.

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Speaker 8: The Witchers were powerful.

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Speaker 1: They were persuasive politicians and wealthy landowners. The witches who

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Speaker 1: fought during wars in America were either heroic or barbaric,

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Speaker 1: depending on whether they were standing with you or against you.

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Speaker 1: And in the eighteen hundreds, many of the witches were ruthless.

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Speaker 1: Even their family today admits it, Winches are wild.

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Speaker 10: These young men, they were wild. I don't know what

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Speaker 10: it is in the DNA, but we don't behave well.

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Speaker 1: On the other side of this feud were the Clements

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds. They were an affluent family that

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Speaker 1: lived adjacent to the Witchers. The patriarch of the Clement

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Speaker 1: family was doctor George Clement, and his house is still here,

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Speaker 1: just south of Pinhook, about forty miles north of Danville. George,

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Speaker 1: his wife, and their sons are all buried in the

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Speaker 1: family cemetery just behind this huge red Antebellum mansion in

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Speaker 1: Franklin County.

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Speaker 11: Hope we all need.

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Speaker 1: I've visited a lot of cemeteries. But I've never had

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Speaker 1: this much trouble finding the brave markers. Y'all. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of warns in here.

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Speaker 4: You got to take your shoes off and join the experience.

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Speaker 8: Is that a country thing is an ozark thing, that's an.

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Speaker 4: O dark thing.

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Speaker 8: There's your head's gone right, all right, okay.

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Speaker 1: George Clement loved all ten of his children, including his

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Speaker 1: four sons, no matter how rowdy they were.

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Speaker 9: I can picture them as twelve thirteen years old going

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Speaker 9: off with Grandpa Clement, which was doctor Clement, going down

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Speaker 9: and he'd say, come on, you know, James, come on, William,

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Speaker 9: come on round, Let's go down to the bottom of

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Speaker 9: the hill. We going. You stay up here and we

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Speaker 9: go hunting.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 9: That's how they got their food. I can I see that.

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Speaker 1: For generations, these two families, the Witchers and the Clements,

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Speaker 1: lived very close to each other. Wayne Witcher's research into

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Speaker 1: tax records shows that they both had lived in Virginia

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Speaker 1: since the mid seventeen hundreds, maybe even earlier. The Clements

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Speaker 1: almost certainly served directly under Major William Witcher's command in

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Speaker 1: the Revolutiontionary War, because they all lived in his Militia district.

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Speaker 8: Before the war.

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Speaker 1: In January of seventeen seventy five, Isaac Clement and William

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Speaker 1: Witcher were both members of the Committee of Safety. This

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Speaker 1: committee was a form of government. It was intended to

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Speaker 1: self govern in opposition to the King of England, and

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Speaker 1: it was effectively a death sentence.

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Speaker 8: If a member were.

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Speaker 1: Caught, he would be executed. There was a Clement and

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Speaker 1: a Witcher in this committee. Together their lives intersected through

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Speaker 1: business deals, marriages, kids, and eventually murder. On the surface,

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Speaker 1: this story might seem simple. A bad marriage between a

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Speaker 1: Witcher and a Clement ends in violence during a custody battle.

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Speaker 1: After that there's a murder trial and no one is

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Speaker 1: happy with the outcome. But family feuds are rarely simple,

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Speaker 1: and this one between the Witchers and the Clements was epic.

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Speaker 7: The way I like to think about it is an

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Speaker 7: insanely jealous man married to a flirtatious woman who perhaps

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Speaker 7: in some way didn't mind pushing his buttons. It's a

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Speaker 7: very bad combination, especially when you bring into the mix

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Speaker 7: a grandfather who will kill anyone who disrespects his granddaughter.

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Speaker 7: And she had to know that, you know, so I

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Speaker 7: think it was a terrible match, and I don't think

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Speaker 7: I don't think there's any question about that.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a crime historian and the author

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Speaker 1: of the forthcoming book All That Is Wicked, which is

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Speaker 1: available for pre order now. I also wrote American Sherlock

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Speaker 1: and Death in the Air. And this is our new

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Speaker 1: season of Tenfold War Wicked. We were just in nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenties Los Angeles, where an alluring young woman brutally murdered

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Speaker 1: another woman she suspected of seducing her husband. And now

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Speaker 1: we're deep into eighteen sixties Virginia, where the moonshine is flowing,

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Speaker 1: the guns are loaded, and just about everyone is heated.

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Speaker 1: We're calling this season blood Feud. At the end of

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Speaker 1: each episode of Tenfold, I ask listeners to send me

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Speaker 1: ideas for historical true crime stories, especially ones from their families.

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Speaker 1: I've heard some great stories from all of you, so

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Speaker 1: thank you. And one of those stories came from an

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma therapist named Katie Witcher. She told me about her

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Speaker 1: family's tumultuous history in southern Virginia near the North Carolina border.

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Speaker 2: The winter side of my family. Although it was my

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Speaker 2: last name going up because my dad grew up without

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Speaker 2: his dad always seemed like, I don't know, not out

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Speaker 2: of reach, but I always felt really connected to them,

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Speaker 2: but we didn't have the means to visit very much,

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Speaker 2: so it was kind of mysterious. I had always a

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Speaker 2: longing to our name. It sounds odd, but I think

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Speaker 2: my dad kind of felt the same way, and I

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Speaker 2: probably picked up on that as his kid. It's just like,

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Speaker 2: I love our last name. It's just something that I've

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Speaker 2: always been drawn to.

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Speaker 1: Katie's family is spread out across America, but some of

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Speaker 1: her closest relatives are here in Virginia, where it all started.

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Speaker 1: Katie's great aunt Edith, grew up here, right where much

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Speaker 1: of the family raised their kids. When Edith was young,

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Speaker 1: she learned that the Witchers were both respected and feared.

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Speaker 12: I know, we had a reputation as getting our own way,

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Speaker 12: regardless of how we got it, but also of benevolence.

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Speaker 12: If they had it, they were willing to share it.

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Speaker 12: No interest on loans or anything like that. Apparently they

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Speaker 12: helped a lot of poorer people out. They're not records

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Speaker 12: of that. That's just what Grandma told me.

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Speaker 2: Of wire.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Hello, High ya Edith's brother, William Randolph Witcher,

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Speaker 1: better known as Wren, has been his entire life here

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Speaker 1: for decades. He has carried on the family legacy of

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Speaker 1: backbreaking labor coupled with deep family commitment.

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Speaker 5: Well, I've been everything, seriously, I've been a tobacco farm,

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Speaker 5: I've been a grane farm, cattle farm, drove tractor trailer,

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Speaker 5: done a little everything.

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Speaker 8: And you grew up here, is that right?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Never left here, Holly. They've been here about all

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Speaker 5: my life.

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Speaker 1: Wren is appreciative of his family name, even though a

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Speaker 1: few generations before him, the Witchers became synonymous with power

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Speaker 1: and violence.

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Speaker 5: They were powerful people. They did not play. They owned

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Speaker 5: god knows how much land. And I've talked to people

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Speaker 5: down there now that you know family members of other

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Speaker 5: families they owned worlds of land. They say, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Wayne Witcher is another relative who has studied the genealogy

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Speaker 1: of the family very extensively. He carried a big box

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Speaker 1: with him when he met me in Virginia in the

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Speaker 1: summer of twenty twenty one. It was full of documents

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Speaker 1: and memorabilia, things he had collected for years about the family.

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Speaker 1: Wayne says that the Witcher's assets were admired by just

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Speaker 1: about everyone in the area. Politics's power in small towns,

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Speaker 1: and we know this has happened for centuries. But what

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Speaker 1: else is power? Which I think was on the Witcher's

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Speaker 1: side is land and the Witchers had major land.

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Speaker 4: Yes they did. They were owners of large tracts of land,

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Speaker 4: and they were very prominent in the plantation industry. They

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Speaker 4: grew a lot of things, were very big in commerce.

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Speaker 1: A lot of tobacco, is that your understanding.

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Speaker 4: A lot of tobacco. They probably grew cotton, though I

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Speaker 4: don't know that for sure, but tobacco for sure.

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Speaker 1: What was the power of tobacco in the eighteen hundreds?

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Speaker 1: Was this a just It must have been a booming

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Speaker 1: industry more than it is now.

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Speaker 4: I assume tobacco equalled cash. And so when you had

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Speaker 4: large tracts of land which could grow a lot of tobacco,

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Speaker 4: and you had lots of cash on hand, which equaled power.

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Speaker 1: The easiest way to explain the feud is to start

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Speaker 1: with the Witchers, because they really are the focal point.

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Speaker 1: They were the ones left with a terrible reputation. After

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Speaker 1: the smoke cleared and the bodies were buried. Wayne says

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Speaker 1: that the Witchers were not just powerful because they were landowners,

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Speaker 1: but also because they were strong leaders.

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Speaker 4: I have seen research done into the early families that

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Speaker 4: lived both in Virginia and in Georgia, and from what

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Speaker 4: I could tell, in almost every case, they were involved

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Speaker 4: in military or political activities of some sort.

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Speaker 1: The feud started with a charming, bright brunette named Victoria Witcher.

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Speaker 1: Her grandfather was Captain Vincent Aliver Witcher. He was a

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Speaker 1: former attorney, a war hero and a politician, the patriarch

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Speaker 1: of the family, and he had a strong family bond.

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Speaker 4: Vincent Oliver Witcher is a very interesting individual. He has

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Speaker 4: a big history in Virginia. This guy was a member

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Speaker 4: of the Pennsylvania County representative group that he was both

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Speaker 4: in the Lower House as well as in the Senate.

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Speaker 4: He's an individual who was involved in quite a bit

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Speaker 4: of politics from the Pittsylvania County area.

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Speaker 1: That's more than thirty years in Virginia politics, which has

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Speaker 1: to make you resilient and maybe a little intimidating. Vincent

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Speaker 1: Oliver Witcher's speeches in the state legislature commanded undivided attention

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Speaker 1: from his fellow lawmakers. He was highly logical and influential,

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Speaker 1: even charming when he wanted to be. Most of the time,

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Speaker 1: he got his way, and most people thought that his

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Speaker 1: way was.

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Speaker 8: The right way.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about Pennsylvania in the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: as far as you know, regarding the Witcher, So, lots

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Speaker 1: of land, lots of political power, a really big family.

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Speaker 1: Is this sort of big fish in a small pond situation?

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Speaker 4: I actually think it is big fish in a small pond.

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Speaker 4: This family had quite a bit of influence in that

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Speaker 4: region of Virginia, but they weren't necessarily influential outside of

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Speaker 4: Pittsylvania County. There was a few individuals who worked their

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Speaker 4: way up in the political arena, but mostly they were

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Speaker 4: very prominent in that area, and they did they were

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Speaker 4: able to exercise that authority in the area of law

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Speaker 4: enforcement in the judicial system.

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Speaker 1: Bill Garant is a local historian who has a relative

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Speaker 1: that pops up in this story. A bit later, a

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Speaker 1: man named Buck. Gilbert Buck was actually one of the

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Speaker 1: catalysts for the feud, an old flame of Victoria's before

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Speaker 1: she married a clement Man. Bill says that politics in

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Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds of Virginia created strong partnerships and bitter

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Speaker 1: rivalries that often ended in duels.

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Speaker 8: And then.

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Speaker 7: In those days, having political power, having that kind of

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Speaker 7: wealth often meant not just economic power. It meant basically,

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Speaker 7: and I'll back it up with my fists and my

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Speaker 7: guns if I need to. Their exceptions to that, you know,

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Speaker 7: maybe clergymen or certain rare politicians like a Thomas Jefferson

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Speaker 7: or something, But for the most part, that was part

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Speaker 7: of the program. And it's in no way being disrespectful

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Speaker 7: of any contemporary Witcher, who, as far as I know,

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Speaker 7: are the finest people I've ever known. But I think

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Speaker 7: the Witchers were were hot tempered and violent people living

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Speaker 7: in an age when that was not something that was

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Speaker 7: all that unusual. They may have been even in that age,

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Speaker 7: they may have been a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: So for many families of the time. Their personal identities

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Speaker 1: were wrapped up in a strong sense of family pride,

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Speaker 1: and the Witchers were proud they owned land, they ruled

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Speaker 1: local politics, and the reputation as military commanders seemed unparalleled.

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Speaker 1: Another Witcher relative, Wesley Witcher, says that this abundance of

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Speaker 1: self importance might not sit so well with potential in

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Speaker 1: laws like the Clements. Who seem to not care as

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Speaker 1: much about clout But Wesley Witcher says that his family

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Speaker 1: valued their legacy and their land. Both were sacred.

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Speaker 10: If you take a macro view though, of the territory

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Speaker 10: we're talking about, we're talked about the first settled area

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Speaker 10: really for the colonies, and so Virginia. I don't want

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Speaker 10: to use the word spiritual, but it's unlike any other

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Speaker 10: state in the Union, and so that might come into

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Speaker 10: play too as far as how families view think, especially

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Speaker 10: if you've got an old family like the Witcher family

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Speaker 10: that's been there such a very long time. We're from here,

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Speaker 10: you know, this is our soil, this is where we've been.

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Speaker 1: Much of the wealth of both families came from land,

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Speaker 1: and that wealth was generated on the backs of enslaved people.

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Speaker 1: That's something I discussed with my kids as we visited

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Speaker 1: an iconic monument during that trip.

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Speaker 9: You got my phone right.

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Speaker 11: Look straight up.

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Speaker 1: On our way to Virginia, I took my twelve year

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Speaker 1: old girls to the Washington Monument in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 13: Here.

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Speaker 1: You I remember when my dad took me here.

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Speaker 8: But we did get to We went it at night

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Speaker 8: and it was all it up, but it just seeing

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Speaker 8: how large and this is pretty overwhelming.

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Speaker 4: It's so gad wow.

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Speaker 8: This is the one thing I definitely wanted to do

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Speaker 8: in Washington with you all.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: I am super science.

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Speaker 4: Oh look at these steps are so cool.

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Speaker 8: Across the way is the Lincoln Memorial.

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Speaker 1: In the eighteen hundreds, no man seemed protected from the

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Speaker 1: threat of being challenged to a duel, even the future

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Speaker 1: President of the United States. I had no idea he

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Speaker 1: had been challenged a duel. Historian Bill Gurrant filled me

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Speaker 1: in on the story. In eighteen forty two, a politician

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Speaker 1: with the Democratic Party accused a young Abraham Lincoln of

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Speaker 1: publicly insulting him, so he challenged the future president to

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Speaker 1: a duel. I've always assumed that it was nearly impossible

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Speaker 1: to get out of a duel, but Garrant says that

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Speaker 1: in this case, that's what happened.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, Abraham Lincoln got challenged to a duel, but could

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Speaker 7: not accept without being deemed a coward. But as the

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Speaker 7: person challenged, he got to choose the weapons. The man

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Speaker 7: who challenged him was a much shorter man, so he said,

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Speaker 7: we're going to fight with broadswords within a circle, and

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Speaker 7: you can't step out, and he made sure he could

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Speaker 7: reach the guy, and the guy couldn't reach him. And

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Speaker 7: it was all because Missus Lincoln had written some anonymous

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Speaker 7: letters to the paper ridiculing this guy, and he found

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Speaker 7: out about it and thought Abraham Lincoln did it. He

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Speaker 7: couldn't refuse those terms without being considered a coward, even

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Speaker 7: though it meant Abraham Lincoln was going to hack him

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Speaker 7: to death. But they worked that one out.

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Speaker 1: So no one was hacked to death in that duel, thankfully,

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Speaker 1: But most challenges didn't end that well. In eighteen fifty nine,

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Speaker 1: when the feud between the Witchers and the Clements began,

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Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver Witcher was seventy years old, but he was

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Speaker 1: still tough as nails and still prepared to fight anyone

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Speaker 1: who dared insult a Witcher. It's so hard for me

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Speaker 1: to understand why someone would be willing to die, why

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Speaker 1: they would even be proud to die over a verbal insult.

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Speaker 1: But Bill Gurant says that the values in the eighteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds were rooted in the honor code. These were the

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Speaker 1: unspoken rules that kept much of the country they thought

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Speaker 1: relatively civilized, and the honor code was very important in

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Speaker 1: Annabellum Virginia.

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Speaker 7: The fear worse than the fear of dying was the

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Speaker 7: fear of being shamed and being considered a coward. You

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Speaker 7: might as well be dead, I mean, anyone in those days,

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Speaker 7: in the culture of the honor culture of that day,

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Speaker 7: if you allowed yourself to be insulted and did not

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Speaker 7: potentially put your life on the line to either demand

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Speaker 7: and receive an apology or to die over it or

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Speaker 7: kill over it, you would be labeled a coward and

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Speaker 7: you would be socially ostracized.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Kelly Brennan is a historian with the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation.

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Speaker 1: She says that the honor code was very specific, and

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Speaker 1: it was also very clear to anyone who lived in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, particularly men.

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Speaker 11: Some of the stuff that they have is really intense,

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Speaker 11: very specific, but very much tied to how they think

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Speaker 11: of themselves as men. There are certain things that aren't done.

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Speaker 11: A great example of something that is mind blowing to

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Speaker 11: us is touching a man's nose. Tweaking a man's nose

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Speaker 11: is like time to start a fight. You do not

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Speaker 11: do it because, honestly, their attitude is the nose is

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Speaker 11: basically the presentation of the penis on the face.

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Speaker 1: I know, the honor code didn't just affect men in

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds Virginia. It also extended to their families. Many

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Speaker 1: of the women believed in these standards too, and if

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Speaker 1: it meant that their husbands or sons or brothers might

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Speaker 1: lose their lives over a brief mistake, you.

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Speaker 7: Know, these were families that all had this really sense

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Speaker 7: of this antebellum honor code. They took offense very easily,

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Speaker 7: and when you were offended in those days, you didn't

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Speaker 7: respond by snubbing the person, you responded by shooting them.

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Speaker 1: Often the honor code was the impetus for feuds, and

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Speaker 1: the most famous feuding families in American history were certainly

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Speaker 1: the hat Fields and the McCoys. Their deadly rivalry started

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Speaker 1: just three years after the Witchers and the Clements began theirs.

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Speaker 1: The hat Fields and the McCoys ambushed each other for

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Speaker 1: almost thirty years until one of them was publicly executed.

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Speaker 1: The feud was so famous that there were several movies

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Speaker 1: and TV shows made about it over the past century,

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Speaker 1: including a nineteen forty nine movie called Rosanna McCoy about

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Speaker 1: a Romeo and Juliette type doomed love affair between a

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Speaker 1: Hatfield and a McCoy. In all, more than a dozen

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Speaker 1: people were killed from both families, though the McCoys seemed

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Speaker 1: to have more tragedy on their side. You might have

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Speaker 1: heard author Dean King on my other show, Wicked Words.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book about the Hatfield's and McCoy's to

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Speaker 1: remind us that these families weren't just caricatures created in Hollywood,

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Speaker 1: but real people, just like the Witchers and the Clements.

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Speaker 1: And their feud wasn't the first or the last. How

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Speaker 1: common are feuds in the eighteen hundreds?

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Speaker 8: Family feuds?

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Speaker 1: I mean, of these common, more common than now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and these parts, they were pretty common because you

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Speaker 3: didn't have.

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Speaker 9: Law and order in most cases.

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Speaker 3: It was more clearly a matter of a power struggle

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Speaker 3: and political control of an area, and it was like

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Speaker 3: a many war going back and forth.

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Speaker 1: I asked Dean if the McCoy and Hatfield family still

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Speaker 1: debated who caused the feud even though this happened one

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty years ago.

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Speaker 8: He says that.

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Speaker 1: Family members on each side have their own opinion about

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Speaker 1: what happened, and after that many years, very little will

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Speaker 1: change their minds about their own family's history.

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Speaker 8: Why do you think that's the case. Why is this

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Speaker 8: important to people?

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Speaker 1: Do you think something that happened one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 1: years ago.

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Speaker 3: You know, in some ways, it's human nature, it's pride,

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Speaker 3: it's family lineage. We take these things seriously. And I

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Speaker 3: think particularly in remote areas like that, where the families

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Speaker 3: have remained close together, they haven't been divided and kind

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Speaker 3: of broken up and moved all over the country, they

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Speaker 3: really pass on this history to one another. They take

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Speaker 3: it very seriously. They're points of honor here that they're

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Speaker 3: very concerned about, and they want the history told the

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Speaker 3: way they've heard it from their families, and they get

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Speaker 3: upset if you challenge that sometimes, and so it is

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Speaker 3: very still a very raw and personal matter.

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Speaker 1: The story of Victoria Witchard Smith and James Reed Clement

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Speaker 1: began in the mid eighteen fifties, after their families had

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Speaker 1: known each other for generations. So it probably wasn't a

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Speaker 1: surprise to either family when James and Victoria, who were

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Speaker 1: both attractive and interesting, began courting in their mid twenties.

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Speaker 1: So James and Victoria meet, do you know anything about that.

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Speaker 4: Those families lived close to each other in general proximity,

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Speaker 4: the different plantations were that far from each other, And

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Speaker 4: because of the upper crust nature of those families, they

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Speaker 4: probably had known each other from social events, perhaps church events,

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Speaker 4: and so I can assume that that's where the romance

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Speaker 4: must have blossomed.

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Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty eight, James was twenty six years old,

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Speaker 1: one of a total of nineteen children in the family.

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Speaker 1: I had assumed that the patriarch of the Clement family,

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Speaker 1: doctor George Clement, would have struggled to support such a

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Speaker 1: large family. But not only was George a well liked doctor,

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Speaker 1: he was also a farmer. Like the Witchers, the Clements

402
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Speaker 1: owned law arche amounts of land around Franklin County. James

403
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: was a farmer along with his brother Johnston. Ralph Clement

404
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: was a lawyer, and two other brothers had left Virginia

405
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Speaker 1: and headed out west years earlier. James's stepmother, Sarah, took

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Speaker 1: care of their grand home called Mountain View, which was

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Speaker 1: atop a hill there in Pinhook. The Clement family was

408
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Speaker 1: very large and very committed to one another no matter what.

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Speaker 1: Wayne Witcher says that the Clements had built a good

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Speaker 1: life for themselves.

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Speaker 4: I don't know that they were a warring family or

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Speaker 4: were criminal in behavior. I think they were well educated.

413
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Speaker 4: James Clement's dad was a doctor, George Clement, and he

414
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Speaker 4: seemed to be very well respected. He was a wealthy

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Speaker 4: man also, and so I would expect that family was

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Speaker 4: well educated, well respected, as the Witcher family was.

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Speaker 1: Victoria Smith was born in Victoria Witcher. She was about

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Speaker 1: twenty years old when she met James Clement and fell

419
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Speaker 1: in love of Victoria's father, doctor Albert Smith, was a

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Speaker 1: well liked physician, just like George Clement. Doctor Smith married

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Speaker 1: a Witcher named Mary Anne, and together they had Victoria

422
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Speaker 1: as well as two sons and two more daughters. Like

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Speaker 1: the Clements, Victoria's family was very close. They celebrated weddings,

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Speaker 1: gathered for large holiday meals, and honored beloved family members

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Speaker 1: at funerals. Wayne Witcher says that Victorious Smith was admired

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Speaker 1: by other families in the rural community, and not just

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Speaker 1: because she was attractive.

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Speaker 4: She was a beautiful woman, charming in personality, well educated, aristocratic,

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Speaker 4: and she was aristocratic because of the money that her

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Speaker 4: family possessed.

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Speaker 1: Desmond Kendrick is a Clement relative. James and his brothers

432
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Speaker 1: were Desmond's great great uncles, and he knows more about

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00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: the Clement family history than anyone ever could. He has

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Speaker 1: spent his life researching them. Desmond thinks highly of Victoria.

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Speaker 1: She was clearly cherished by her grand father, Captain Vincent

436
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: Oliver Witcher, but Desmond does wonder about their relationship. After all,

437
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver was a war hero and a politician. He

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Speaker 1: didn't seem very sentimental.

439
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 9: Well, I can just picture them going down to grandpa's house,

440
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 9: Vincent Witcher's house as a little girl, and you know,

441
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 9: did he play with her or did he talk to her?

442
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 9: What did he do there? Again? You never know, But

443
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 9: it's just a perspective on your part of what you think.

444
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 9: Hapman in history is a lot like that. A lot

445
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 9: of it is just your perspective of it.

446
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: Victoria was a dark haired beauty with a quick wit

447
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: and lively personality, while James was a hard worker who

448
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: seemed committed to working with the land. They made a fetching,

449
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: dynamic couple, both from affluent, respected families that had been

450
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: intertwined for decades. The Witchers and the Clements all seem

451
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: pleased when the pair decided to marry on Thursday May thirteenth,

452
00:25:52,520 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty eight. The ceremony and the reception afterward were lavish,

453
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: with loads of food and drinks and music. The local

454
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: newspapers reported extensively on the ceremony. The Petersburg Register wrote

455
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: the nuptials were celebrated with a brilliant party being given

456
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: in honor of the event, which was attended by the

457
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 1: elite of the two counties. Hundreds of well wishers surrounded

458
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: the couple while the Clements and the Witchers gazed at

459
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: James and Victoria. The guest list included some of the

460
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 1: wealthiest members of the communities from Pennsylvania and Franklin Counties,

461
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: and there were also dozens of members of their extended families.

462
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: As people there offered up toasts, the family wondered about

463
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: James and Victoria's future.

464
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 8: They prayed for good health and happy family.

465
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: For that day at least, everyone seemed optimistic, even Captain Witcher,

466
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: who was the pragmatist in the family. But while the

467
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: Clements and the Witchers had known each other for generations

468
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: and it seemed like a natural match, there had been

469
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: issues and fights in the past, and on that wedding day,

470
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: no one there could know just how terribly it would

471
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: end up. The first sign of bad news came just

472
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: three days after the marriage ceremony. It happened at a dance.

473
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: Victoria begged James to come with her to her grandfather,

474
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver's house in Pennsylvania. The captain was hosting a

475
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: dance for the young people in the area, something he

476
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: tried to do often, but Victoria's night seemed doomed from

477
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: the start. As she walked around the dance floor among

478
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: the young men, James followed her. Her husband was not

479
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: interested in dan dancing, but he refused to leave her

480
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: alone with the other men. Victoria smiled and started dancing

481
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: with just about anyone who was around. James stared as

482
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: she danced with other young men. He grew sullen and

483
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: slunk off to another room. Victoria noticed that he was gone.

484
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: When she finally found James, he was furious. He lashed

485
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 1: out about watching her dance with other young men. It

486
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: was inappropriate. She was a married woman now and she

487
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: needed to act like one immediately. Vicky Borden is a

488
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: very special person in this story because she and her

489
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: daughter Jane are the only people you'll hear from who

490
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: are descended from both James and Victoria.

491
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 6: He was very straight and strict and formal, and she

492
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 6: was not on She was lie and wanted to have

493
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 6: Vaughn and he did not. She was very unhappy.

494
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: Eames yelled that he was miserable watching her a modesty

495
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: on display. It was humiliating for a conservative husband. He

496
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: forbade Victoria from dancing with other men.

497
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 4: Maybe what Victoria was doing was innocent enough, we don't

498
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: really know that, but in that time period, I think

499
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 4: they really insistent on the separation between the sexes, and

500
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 4: if she was out communicating and dancing with other men,

501
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 4: I could see what would create some jealousies in him.

502
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 4: And we don't also know whether alcohol was involved. Perhaps

503
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 4: she was drinking, perhaps they were drinking, Perhaps they had

504
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 4: become intoxicated.

505
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: He screamed that she wouldn't even be allowed to talk

506
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: with other men unless he were close by. Victoria seemed stunned.

507
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: She was quiet, and then she was ashamed. Victoria later

508
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: told the Witchers that it felt as if James were

509
00:29:53,080 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: persecuting her, but she refused to give up on her marriage.

510
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: James and Victoria stayed with her grandfather, Vincent Oliver a

511
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: few more days before they moved into a house that

512
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: James had arranged for them, close to both of their families.

513
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 1: Victoria then decided that perhaps this darker side of James

514
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: was fleeting. After all, he had courted her with kindness,

515
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: and she expected to feel that once again when the

516
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: marriage could be on proper footing. So they moved into

517
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,479
Speaker 1: a little house at the foot of the hill below

518
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:32,719
Speaker 1: his father's Mountain View plantation. Victoria spent several months cleaning

519
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: up and organizing, turning their new homestead into a lovely house.

520
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: Victoria also managed the small group of enslaved men and

521
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: women who worked on the land and in the house,

522
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: including a six year old boy. We don't know much

523
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: about him, but he would play a big part later on.

524
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: James and Victoria would often ride to the top of

525
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: the hill in a little buggy for dinner with the clements.

526
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: They hoped for children, and within a month of their

527
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: wedding Victoria became pregnant. She told the Witchers that James

528
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: was working hard in the fields, she was toiling inside

529
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: the home, trying to adhere to his rigid rules. As

530
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: spring turned to summer, James and Victoria began feeling more

531
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,959
Speaker 1: tension in their marriage. I mentioned before that Vicky Borden

532
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: is a direct descendant of James in Victoria. That's because

533
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: her great grandmother.

534
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 8: Was Liliah Maud.

535
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: Their daughter, Liliah Maud, would become the epicenter of an

536
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: atrocious argument that would eventually trigger the feud.

537
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 8: When I asked Vicky Borden about who was.

538
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: To blame, we talked a lot about perception. You can

539
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: imagine that for every accusation that Victoria leveled, James had

540
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: a response. She accused him of verbally abusing her at

541
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: the dance just a few days after their wedding. He

542
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: denied it, and he even said that he thought her

543
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 1: behavior with other men seemed just fine to him. It

544
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: can be very confusing as you dig through family documents

545
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: from both the Witchers and the Clements.

546
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 6: It depends on who you talk to. If you talk

547
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 6: to the people who on the side of the Witchers,

548
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 6: they say, maybe she was unhappy, maybe there were reasons

549
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 6: for her unhappiness.

550
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 8: And if you.

551
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 6: Talk to the people who are on doctor Clement's side,

552
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 6: they say, well, you know, maybe she was just too frivolous.

553
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 6: So nobody knows.

554
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: But there were quite a lot of people who thought

555
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: James was too protective and even possessive. When male neighbors

556
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: would drop by the house, James would become moody and

557
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: he would sulk. His immense insecurities made everyone miserable. He

558
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: discouraged her from having conversations with any man. James of

559
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: Victoria generally rode to the Sunday services in a buggy.

560
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: If a man asked to ride with them, which was common,

561
00:32:54,360 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: James would ride in silence. James always accompaniedvitorreta church, even

562
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: when she didn't want him to, Especially when she didn't

563
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: want him to. He sat right beside her, which might

564
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: not seem strange, but in those days, many rural Virginia

565
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: churches separated their pews by sex. James would insist on

566
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: sitting in the ladies only section, right next to Victoria,

567
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: despite the glares from his wife and other women. This

568
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: all seems really familiar to me. It actually sounds a

569
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: lot like Edward Roulaw from Season one. He also tried

570
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: to control his wife Harriet before murdering her. Victoria often

571
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: asked James about his feelings, but he would simply shut

572
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: down and ignore the questions. Victoria, in turn, would talk

573
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: with her family, not just her parents, doctor and Missus Smith,

574
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 1: but also the Witchers, and a man like Captain Vincent

575
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: Oliver Witcher was likely to be dangerous after hearing that

576
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: his granddaughter was unhappy with her abusive husband.

577
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 4: They were known to be hotheads. In fact, I could

578
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 4: tell you from DNA research into that surname it is

579
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 4: of Scandinavian origin, and that would be a Viking. I

580
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 4: guess is how you'd have to say. So. I actually

581
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 4: do think the DNA, the genetics has seen in the

582
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 4: way that these different individuals handled themselves, both politically and interpersonally.

583
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: James needed to be careful. He knew that Vincent Oliver

584
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: Witcher was keeping a close eye on him, and we

585
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: don't even know everything that Victoria told him in the

586
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: early days of their marriage. She might have taken some

587
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: of the blame herself. She might have softened the phrases

588
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: that James had screamed at her. But in the eighteen hundreds, women,

589
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: particularly women in the south and in the countryside, were

590
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: expected to defer to their husbands. When Victoria was about

591
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: two months pregnant, James became even more threatening, more violent.

592
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: When they were first married, he accused her of flirting,

593
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: but now he was leveling charges of infidelity. He was

594
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: sure she was cheating on him, and maybe the baby

595
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: wasn't even his. These new accusations infuriated Victoria and she

596
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 1: began arguing back.

597
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 8: Wingwitcher says that this doesn't surprise him at all.

598
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 4: I could just tell you from my experience looking backwards

599
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 4: from older relatives I have, most of these Whicher females

600
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 4: are pretty strong natured. They don't like to be pushed around,

601
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 4: and so that might have been the situation here. Maybe

602
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 4: Victoria was one of those people who was self willed,

603
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 4: and I can imagine with her family being the way

604
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 4: they were, she probably didn't like to be pushed around,

605
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 4: and so she probably pushed back.

606
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: As the fall leaves began to turn in Southern Virginia

607
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty eight, Victoria began to lose her patience.

608
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,959
Speaker 1: She started teasing James just to while him up, which

609
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: made him even more furious. She lashed out at him,

610
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: and they argued relentlessly. Less than six months after their ceremony,

611
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: she was already thinking of divorce. That autumn, victorious smith

612
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: Clement surveyed the weapons in her family's home. James had

613
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: a sharpened bowie knife laying on a side table.

614
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 8: There was a steel sword.

615
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: Cane several feet long leaning against a wall, and then

616
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: there was James's favorite weapon, his colt pistol. James would

617
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: sit down in front of her with a pistol in

618
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: one hand while slowly fiddling with a bullet in the other.

619
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: He would slowly load the bullet into the chamber of

620
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: the pistol and warn her about her adultery. Katie Whitcher

621
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: is a therapist for victims of domestic violence. She's read

622
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: the description of James's behavior during his marriage and she

623
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: immediately recognized a pattern the actions of a man steeped

624
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: in his own low self esteem.

625
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: I see with abusers, whether it be men or women,

626
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 2: at the core same with narcissist, and they often can

627
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 2: be let as a narcissist. They hate themselves. They have

628
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: such low self esteem that they cannot trust the person

629
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 2: that said I do that. They have to put chairs

630
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 2: around the bed. So I think a lot of times

631
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: it's just tying to this same theme of it when

632
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: you have to try so hard to defend yourself, and

633
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: it really kind of goes down to this pride day.

634
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: Katie Witcher might be right, James might have been a narcissist,

635
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: but the marriage problems between James Clement and Victoria Witcher

636
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 1: seemed deeper than just pride. Victoria might have provoked him

637
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: at times, but he was certainly becoming more abusive toward her,

638
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: both physically and verbally. And their daughter, Lilia Maud was

639
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: due to be born in the spring, Victoria's safety was

640
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: more important than ever, but James's jealousy and insecurities were deepening.

641
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: Bill Gaurant says that James was a thug who just

642
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: wanted to control his wife, and he was able to

643
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 1: do so for a while, but that was changed.

644
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 7: She clearly was, I think being bullied by her husband

645
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 7: after the marriage. I mean, he sort of began to

646
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 7: treat her like, you'll do what I say, you don't

647
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 7: leave the house without me looking at you, and all

648
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 7: that sort of thing. It's an ugliness, a bad marriage.

649
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 7: During the time of honor culture, it was just a

650
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:18,959
Speaker 7: pot waiting to boil over.

651
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 9: You know.

652
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: Victoria's family, the Witchers were alarmed. They feared the marriage

653
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't end well, and for several members of one of

654
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: the two families, it would end in murder. On this

655
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: season of tenfold More Wicked on exactly right, It's.

656
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Speaker 13: Kind of an ongoing terrorism, the way I describe it

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Speaker 13: in an intimate relationship. So maybe you don't see physical

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Speaker 13: violence necessarily, but you definitely see those types of controlling

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Speaker 13: behaviors and that type of intimate terrorism.

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Speaker 10: These are two powerful families, two big families, and there

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00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 10: was an against one of them, and that's against all

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Speaker 10: of them, and that's either on their side or our side.

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Speaker 10: And so here we go.

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Speaker 14: As an adult, you realize the weight of it. They

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Speaker 14: killed each other over public insults. I mean, imagine how

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Speaker 14: far we've come. Only one hundred and sixty years ago,

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Speaker 14: people just killed each over over insults. I mean, that's

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Speaker 14: basically Twitter. That's like if Twitter existed one hundred and

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Speaker 14: sixty years ago, I guess everybody would just be mass murderers.

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Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for

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Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked

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Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold More Wicked.

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00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer

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Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book

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Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly

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Speaker 1: right tenfold More Media production producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Amrosi

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00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: and Laura Sobole, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath,

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00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producer are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff

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00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at

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00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked, and on Twitter at tenfold More. And

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Speaker 1: if you know of a historical true crime that could

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Speaker 1: use some attention, email us at info at tenfoldmoremedia dot com.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe now on Amazon Music, Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you like to listen,