1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: Who get it. It's really hard to talk about who 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: qualifies for reparations. I think genealogy like who came from slaves? 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: Whose great great parents where slaves. You have to find 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: a way to prove that. So no matter what, if 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: you're a person of coloring this country, you faith still 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: freshness some type of way in America needs to repent 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: for it. Every Black person that's been harmed by the 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: system because and then then no matter where you go 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: in the world, black people is the one who's mainly 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: dominated how those countries run. Because you know, even in America, 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: you're talking at least of America's wealth comes out of 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: black people, and a lot of black people don't even 13 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: realize that. Well, you have to do the history because 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: we don't know who ancestors. You gotta go back and 15 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: put the ancestors, Like I said, who family been a slave. 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: I'm Erica Alexander and I'm Whitney down. Welcome to Reparations 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: The Big Payback, a product sh of Color Farm Media, 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and The Black Effect Podcast Network. Erica, 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question. Okay, I was 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: about to say shoot, but yeah, okay, ask away. It's 21 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: just like the most basic question, say you Erica persuade 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: people that reparations are something that America can do and 23 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: should do. Who gets them? While I'm rooting for everybody black, 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: I gets them. That's all I know. But how about this, 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: let's ask Killer Mike who gets it? I think the 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: people who gets to other people who are the descendants 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: of the people who came in sixty nineteen, right. That 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: means to be very plainly, if the Obama daughters we're 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: getting some type of reparations, it would be because of 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: their mother's lineage, not because of their father's. That simple 31 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: does not mean that I don't love all black people. 32 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that the diasporas and oh you know, I 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: think Portugal ols, the Dominican Republic, France, Old Haiti. I 34 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: think we should all be fighting a worldwide fighting for reparations. 35 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: But in terms of America, everybody who's descendant was brought 36 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: off those boats at the port and Savannah, Charleston, South Carolina, 37 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: and beyond, whether Louisiana and Florida deserves absolutely deserves it. 38 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: And it ain't hard to find out who you are. 39 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: And I always encouraged black folks to fill out the 40 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: senses I'm able to look at the senses from the 41 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds and see exactly who my great grandparents 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: belong to. So I think that that's important thing, because 43 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: that will be part of the way you prove your 44 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: ancestry right. So for me, everybody who is an ancestor 45 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: of the people that were brought here from six nineteen 46 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: into the embolishment of the trans Atlantic slave trade should 47 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: be eligible before reparations in this country. Boom, well, I 48 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: guess that settles it not so fast Erica Mark Moreal. 49 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think he's exactly down with that. 50 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: He used to be mayor of New Orleans, so you 51 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: know they've seen a few things. But Mark says that 52 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: colonial powers collectively owe adept to enslaved descendants in the 53 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: Western hemisphere. I heard some people suggest, and I disagree 54 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: with it completely, that people of Caribbean descent in the 55 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: United States did not deserve to enjoy reparations. If there 56 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: are some I said, hey, what you're missing is is 57 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: that slavery in the Western Hemisphere didn't start in Jamestown 58 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: in sixty nineteen. Slavery in the Western Hemisphere started in 59 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: the fifteen hundreds in South America and the Caribbean. Huge 60 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: slave port Cartagena, Colombia, was the main slave port in 61 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. There was slavery raging in the Caribbean and 62 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: in parts of South American places like what is now 63 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: Panama and Cuba and Haiti even before sixty nineteen. So 64 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: most Americans of Caribbean descent are descended from a slave 65 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: system which was created by colonial powers. And I think 66 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about reparations is due former 67 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: colonial powers oh a participation in reparations France, Spain, the 68 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Portugal who fundamentally created, nurtured, and 69 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: sustained the system of slavery before the United States was 70 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: founded in seventeen seventy six, you know. And that's a 71 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: discussion we haven't handed. I think it's a legitimate discussion 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: because it didn't start in the the seventeen seventy six. It 73 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: started when the British is, French and the Spanish head 74 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: colonies and the Portuguese own boats. There's a long, long story. 75 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: So in this context of discussing racial justice, reparations equity 76 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: in the current sense, we also have to go back 77 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: and understand the origins the Western hemisphere. Can you imagine 78 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: coordinating reparations payments with all those countries? I know what 79 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: a wreath would say, nice harmony America. Thanks. Well, that's 80 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: the rub, isn't it? Like? America is full of African Americans, 81 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: but not all of them are descendants of a slaved Americans. 82 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: So well, one case be made is that the descendant 83 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: of slaves suffered things such as bondage, torture, family separation, 84 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: forced labor Jim Coro, and of course four years of oppression. 85 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: That say, recent immigrants from Haiti, Jamaica, Africa, Latin America 86 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: didn't suffer. So believe me, Erica, I appreciate your what 87 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: would you call it your socratic method here, but no, seriously, 88 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: I'm saying, so, wouldn't you say that America remains a 89 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: two tiered society, one with one kind of justice, one 90 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: set of rules for white people and another for black 91 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,119 Speaker 1: people wherever they come from. Yeah, of course I agree 92 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: with that. But it seems also that this whole series, 93 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: we've really been talking about slavery and it's after effects, 94 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about that, but those after effects affect 95 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: more people than a strict definition would take in say, 96 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: Kevin Durant and Gianna's anti to Kompo. Like how I 97 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: said that? Yeah, say they're driving in a nice car 98 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: in a white neighborhood at night in Georgia. Wait, you 99 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: know Gianna Suntokumpo Whitney, he's a four time all are well, 100 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: they're both in the car. Okay, who's in danger? Only Durant, 101 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: you think racist cops or systematically racist justice system are 102 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: gonna split that here? Step out of the car in words. 103 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: Oh no, wait, not you, Mr antikotone Compo. We know 104 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: you're not an actual descentant of slaves. Yeah, I get it, 105 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: I get it. But isn't there a larger social justice problem? 106 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: Isn't that beyond the scope of what reparations really can 107 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: or should do. I'm just making the point and I 108 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: don't even know if I agree with it that reparations 109 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: is or should be about more than bloodlines. Of course, 110 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: American black slavery was a unique crime in history, and 111 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: of course that suffering in societal disempowerment got passed down 112 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: and in many ways reinforced through the generations. But another 113 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: thing that got passed down for everybody was a gym 114 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: crow society that persists to this day, where all Black 115 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: people in America suffer from unequal education, unequal opportunity, unequal 116 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 1: will access to health, to capital formation, to simple justice. 117 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: Will reparations really change that? You know, I'm seeing reparations, 118 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: this specific remedy of reparations is a practical way to 119 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: help right or wrong, to lift people up who are 120 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: kept down, to put money in people's hands, no doubt, 121 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: And I'm with you on that. I'm all for putting 122 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: money in black people's hands, but who and how many people? Right? 123 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: I mean, to your point, there's a racial wealth gap 124 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: that has persisted in this country for decades and according 125 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: to two thousand and nineteen study, the average white wealth 126 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: is seven times that of average black well seven times, 127 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: and that gap it hasn't narrowed since ninety two. Yeah, 128 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: well that's right. But I'm I'm just saying that maybe 129 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: the who of reparations has a larger dimension, or a 130 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: moral one, or even a teaching dimension, not just a 131 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: practical one. Maybe it's a way of recognizing that in 132 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: an unequal society, all Black Americans need an apology, all 133 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: Black Americans need a reset of the scales, and all 134 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: Black Americans need is Dr King said a check. So 135 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: it's not the ato's point of view, right, I really 136 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: don't want to get into that, at least under that 137 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: rubic But let's take a better look at your suggestion 138 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: that reparations only be given to descendants of slaves in America. 139 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: How do you even do that? How do you parse 140 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: out who's a slave descendant and who's not? Well, you know, 141 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: economist William Darty says in his recent book From Here 142 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: to Equality that reparations should go to people who have 143 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: and I quote, a consistent pattern of identification as a 144 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: black American. And he said a lot more than that, 145 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: Yes he did. Now, I'm not into the degrees of 146 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: blackness or the fractions thing myself. But what's central to 147 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: the criteria that we offer in From Here to Equality 148 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: is whether or not an individual has an ancestral connection 149 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: to persons who were supposed to have received the forty 150 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:02,479 Speaker 1: acres and restitution for the years of bondage. So essentially, 151 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: we argue that the folks who should receive reparations, and 152 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: the folks for whom reparations always has been intended, are 153 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: the Black Americans who are descendants of persons enslaved in 154 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: the United States. That's the community that bears the weight 155 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: of the intergenerational effects of slavery, one years of Jim 156 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: Crow and ongoing atrocities like mass incarceration, police executions of 157 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: unarmed blacks, and ongoing discrimination and credit, housing, and employment. 158 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: You know, the reparations should have been given to the 159 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: ancestors of the living descendants. The failure to do so 160 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: triggered a chain of events that cripple the lives of 161 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: those who are living today. And if we want to 162 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: remove that burden, that's the community that received reparations. Sorry, 163 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: Stacy Dash no cookies for you. Well, I'm not going 164 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: to get into that one. She crossed the line. But 165 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: you know, he says you could use census records, birth records, 166 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: death records, DNA even um I think twenty three and me, yeah, 167 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: because the record keeping has always been so good for 168 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: black folks in America. True, true, but those things will 169 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: certainly be a good place to start. I know another 170 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: place to start. Yvette Carnell, co founder of ADOS American 171 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: Descendants of Slaves, She's been very specific about the who 172 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: of reparations. She certainly has, and you know, Killer Mike 173 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: suggested that we should talk to her, and I bet 174 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: she's got a lot to say. Name me one other 175 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: group that has been oppressed from slavery and then has 176 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: had the entire government, local and federal mechanized against them, right, 177 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: and the citizens three of the United States, like the 178 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: citizens and the KKK that citizens mechanized against us. That's 179 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: internal torture, that's internal terrorism. No other group can claim that. Now, 180 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: some other groups can claim during this period, we got 181 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: discriminated against during this period, some of our people got 182 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: hung or lynched. But you do not have a history 183 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: that stretches from sixteen nineteen. You don't have that. And 184 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: so I think people look at that and say, listen, 185 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: this is four years and we will pressed this group. 186 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: We don't got that kind of money, So we gotta 187 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: kind of paint eid Dolls out as some kind of 188 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: rag tag, controversial, radical group because we're never gonna try 189 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: to pay them. And so I think what you see 190 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: is just powerful people who have decided that they have 191 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,359 Speaker 1: built their lives and they've built America or an injustice 192 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: and it's gonna keep being that way. And a way 193 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: to keep being that way is to just smear eight 194 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: dolls and say we are controversial as opposed to just 195 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: saying listen, okay, you're right, reparations needs to happen, and 196 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: it needs to go to a specific group. Let's talk 197 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: about how we do that. American culture sits on top 198 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: of eight or culture. That's just a fact. It's about 199 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: our inventions, it's about our music, it's about everything that 200 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: you do. America. You don't really have a culture outside 201 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: of us. The people you can't. You brought here and enslaved. 202 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: You have no culture outside of that, So that makes 203 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: us specific. You know, our culture is not Haitian culture. 204 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: Our culture and our contribution is not the name. It's 205 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: not South American, it's not Kingan. It doesn't mean I 206 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: have anything against them or anybody else. We're just different. 207 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,839 Speaker 1: We're just different groups. It doesn't mean better or worse. 208 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: That's what people mix up. I'm not saying I'm superior 209 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: to you. What I'm saying is that we're different. And 210 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: in terms of America, the descendants of Chaddel slavery have 211 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: made a different and a heavier contribution to America than 212 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: anybody else. And we did it unwillingly, and we got 213 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: abused because of it. And we have a specific cost. Now, 214 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: when you have a specific cost, that means a specific 215 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: payment that comes only to me, comes only to you, Erica, 216 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: that's what it means. You have to have that and listen. 217 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: Like I tell everybody, if the Haitians get reparations from 218 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: the French, I'm gonna be the first one that Papabolis 219 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: champagne in the street and celebrate. You deserve it. I'm 220 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: not gonna say I deserve it. I don't. My people 221 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: don't come from Toussaint's people. It don't. I don't deserve that. 222 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: I should celebrate it, and I will celebrate it because 223 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: I disagree. I oppose oppression anywhere everywhere. So I will 224 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: absolutely salute you, dance in the street with you, everything. 225 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: But I don't deserve that because my people didn't fight 226 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: for that. But everything that happened in this country, my 227 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: people fought for and deserved. And we have a specific 228 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: debt that is old to us that shouldn't be controversial. 229 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: So to be clear, how outside of everything that others 230 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: might define you, how did you find yourself and what 231 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: is ados well? We defined ourselves as American descendants of slavery, right, 232 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: slavery as an institution Slavery was institution in this country. 233 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: It wasn't just something that happened. It was the government 234 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: weaponized against us, and that these people are less than 235 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: These people are slaves, they're designed to be slaves, and 236 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: out of that we created something beautiful. So that's how 237 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: I defined myself. I define myself by my ancestors and 238 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: what they fought through and what they encountered, and the 239 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: fact that I'm still here. That's why the fight still 240 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: happens because I think we have to be freedom fighters 241 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: in this space. That's what our people were and that's 242 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: what we owe to them. There's a certain debt that 243 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: is old to the ancestors in terms of, yeah, you 244 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: gotta fight because we fall, We fought and died. You 245 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: gotta fight too. You gotta keep this fight going. So 246 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: that's how I define AIDS in terms of who we 247 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: are politically and otherwise. My people have been here four 248 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: hundred years, contributing to this country and not getting the 249 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: wealth of this country, not getting the milk and honey 250 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: of this country. Like Martin Luther King said, you know, 251 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: it's one thing to be poor, it's another thing to 252 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: be poor in a country of wealth. So we are 253 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: in a country that we built. We built all this 254 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: wealth for this country. America would not be a country 255 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: without AIDS, and we're still a bottom cast in this country. 256 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: That's different. I'm not the same as somebody else. I'm 257 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: not the same as any other person because of melanin. 258 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: Melanin doesn't make us the same. And so I think 259 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: that's the point where people say, oh my god, event 260 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: at also being divisive. But Meldon is a trait, it's 261 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: a biological trait. It doesn't mean we're the same in 262 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: terms of our contributions to America, and it doesn't mean 263 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: that you should get reparations the same as me can 264 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: A question just on sort of like how you think, 265 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: you talk about specificity, how you think about the mechanics 266 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: of things, because I'm guessing you would also agree that 267 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: whether or not you're ads, if you have black skin 268 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: in this country, you still suffer from the legacy of slavery, 269 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: that even if you're a second generation Caribbean immigrant, that 270 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: you still suffer from the structures that were put in 271 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: place that are sort of built around white supremacy. Would 272 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: you agree on that front, Yes, absolutely right, because America 273 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: is too tiered. They don't ask who you are. They 274 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: just you know, see you black, but go ahead. So 275 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: the question I have is that if there's repreation, do 276 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: you believe that black Americans who have suffered under the 277 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: legacy of slavery also deserve some sort of compensation or 278 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: on some sort of a structure that allows them to 279 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: play and even on an even playing field with white Americans. 280 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: And should that be part of reparations. Do you imagine 281 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: that it's a separate bill or mechanism, or how do 282 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: you deal with that other group of Americans who continue 283 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: to suffer under the legacy of slavery but are not 284 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: necessarily Ito's descendants. Well, let me just point out one 285 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: thing first before I deal with what you just said. 286 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: The meat of what you just said, American descendants of 287 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: slavery came here in slave ships. Every other group came 288 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: here either on foot on a plane. You came here voluntary. 289 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: Voluntary versus involuntary has consequences in terms of reparations. Now, 290 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: you do not get reparations because you came here voluntarily. 291 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: You decided to come here because you will have a 292 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: better life. That was your choice. You don't get reparations 293 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: for that. What I will say is this, we have 294 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: a Black agenda, So you don't get reparations, no, but 295 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: you do get to access this Black agenda that we have. 296 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: The Black agenda is antidiscriminatory, so it is with the 297 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: lived experience of what we deal with in terms of 298 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: racism and discrimination. There's a lived experience of racism. That's 299 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: what a lot of black immigrants deal with, right or 300 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: children of black immigrants. What ADOS deals with is not 301 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: only the lived experience, but the inherited experience in terms 302 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: of the lack of wealth. So you would not have 303 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: access to reparations as a Caribbean person who came here voluntarity, 304 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: but you would have access to our Black agenda in 305 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: terms of our anti racism, anti black policies. Those things 306 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: are part of our Black agenda. We have an ADOS agenda, 307 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: which is reparations and a Black agenda. What black immigrants 308 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: deal with is discrimination, and we have things in our 309 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: Black agenda that mitigate that. What we're saying is that listen, 310 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: as a black immigrant, you absolutely are able to access 311 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: our transformative Black agenda. The only thing that you don't 312 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: access is reparations, because reparations is a delineation between who 313 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: came here in slaveships and who came here on a 314 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: plane or on foot. That's it. So you can access 315 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: this because you have a lived experience of this scrimination, 316 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: and we want to help you take care of that. 317 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: But there's another thing in terms of inheritance, a d 318 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: O S should have far more in terms of our wealth. 319 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: Our wealth has been stolen, were plundered group from slavery, 320 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: Jim Crow and then on. We're taking care of that. 321 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: That is what reparations is for. That is specifically for 322 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: aid us. That is an inheritance that we have been 323 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: robbed of. So the inheritance that we have been robbed 324 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: of were taking care of specifically of a d O S. Now, 325 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: you have a specific experience, a lived experience of discrimination. 326 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: We're gonna try to deal with that, my black immigrant 327 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: ally in terms of our black agenda. But there are 328 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: two different aspects of what we're doing. How do you 329 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: think reparations should be done? Well? Reparations for us is 330 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: very different because no other group in the world has 331 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: come from slavery and been multigenerationally oppressed. No group can 332 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: say that, no group can say that. Listen, we were 333 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: slaves and then the country decided to weaponize itself against 334 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: US local and federal. So, oh, there is no framework, 335 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: There is no blueprint. Now, what I will say is 336 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: that I do appreciate Holocaust reparations in the sense that 337 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 1: they understand that there are people who stand in the shoes. 338 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: So there are people who stand in the shoes of 339 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors, just like in America we have people who 340 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: stand in the shoes of slaves. So that is us. 341 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: So the framework would be to begin a repayment of 342 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: the wealth plundering. Right, that's part of what we have 343 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: to do. You have to do a repayment. There has 344 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: to be a check, but there has to be a 345 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: check for several generations. Because one thing I always say 346 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: is that it takes much more time to repair a 347 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: wound than it takes to inflict a wound. If I 348 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: take a knife right now and slash you, it's gonna 349 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: take much the more time for you that wound to 350 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,959 Speaker 1: heal than it took for me to hurt you. So 351 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: that's the same thing in terms of what we have 352 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: to deal with. Right, Slavery happened, Jim Crow happened, reconstruction happened, 353 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: Mass and conceerration happened, but it's gonna take a lot 354 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: more time than four hundred years to fix what you 355 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,239 Speaker 1: did to us. In four hundred years of reparations is 356 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: just the beginning of the fix. And I think that's 357 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 1: why America doesn't want to do to fix because they 358 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: know what they did to us, and they know how 359 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: long it's gonna take to fix that, and they don't 360 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: want to make that an American program. But that's what's 361 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: gotta happen. So when you're talking about the Germans, just 362 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: so where we get what you were talking about, what 363 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: did they do specifically that you said you feel at 364 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: least addressed in a way that you think was direct 365 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: in terms of the payments around the world, not just Germany, 366 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: in terms of the payments to Holocaust survivors. They've said 367 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: that this listen, it's not just Holocaust survivors, it's the heirs. 368 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,239 Speaker 1: It's the people who are considered to be standing in 369 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,719 Speaker 1: the shoes of those people who still bear the cost. 370 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: And I think they captured that perfectly, because there are 371 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: people who are still standing in the shoes of Holocaust 372 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: survivors who still bear the cost of that. In that 373 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: very same way, in America, we have American descendants of 374 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: slavery who are still bearing the cost. Because you have 375 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: to understand what's happened in America. Let's just really break 376 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: it down. The weaponization of America and American citizens against 377 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: ads has been very intentional. It's not just because some 378 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: people are racist. That's not what happened. We've had race, 379 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: the creation of race, which is really a construction. It's 380 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: not real. Merlandan doesn't make you a race of people. 381 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: What's happened is that America said that this race is 382 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: going to be on the bottom and they're going to 383 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: eat the failure of American They're gonna be America's garbage disposal. 384 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: So we're gonna put We're not only gonna just put 385 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: you in jail so you can work for free and 386 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: be new slaves. We're also going to put plants in 387 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: your neighborhood that puff out chemicals that kill you. We're 388 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: also going to have you be the ones that drink 389 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: lead water. When the country needs jobs, we're gonna just 390 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: build prisons and how people work in prisons, and have 391 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: construction companies build industrial prison complexes. So we're going to 392 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: use you to feed the rest of the country. You 393 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: are going to not only eat the failure, but you're 394 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: going to provide prosperity to the rest of the country. 395 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: And that has been very intentional from slavery all the 396 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: way to now. And there's a cost that comes with that, 397 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: but that's a very specific cost to us that nobody 398 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: else bears. How do you pay it? Say, everything sort 399 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: of lines up the way you want. And frankly, if 400 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: you say pump your brake, let's wait, it maybe past 401 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: your lifetime, in my lifetime that we will see anything 402 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: that's close to what you're talking about. But who and 403 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: what type of processes is going to be. It has 404 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: to be multifold and multifaceted. And I don't think anybody 405 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: has ever talked about that. I've never seen anybody talk 406 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: about it. So it has to be a redistribution of 407 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: wealth because wealth will stolen, wealth has to be repaid. 408 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: That's number one. The second thing is you have to 409 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: have protections in place. What happened to us during the 410 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: Great Recession was that people were able to come down 411 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: in our communities and take away from us to plunder 412 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: our group. That's always happened. You have to have some 413 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: protections in place for people who have recently received reparation. Now, 414 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: this is just the beginning. Like I said before, this 415 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: is not the end. But you have to have protections 416 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: in place because capitalism can be predatory and one of 417 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: the things that we have seen is the only capital 418 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: that we've had access to has been predatory capital. You 419 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: have to have protected the place saying that you cannot 420 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: target this group with subprime anything. You cannot target this 421 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: group with scams. We have to be a protected class. 422 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: You can protect a spot at our but you can't 423 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: protect AIDS. You absolutely can, and that have to be 424 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: consequences for that. The other thing that has to happen 425 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: to we talk about plugs and outlets. So a lot 426 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: of AIDS come out of school and we're the plug 427 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: and we don't have an outlet. That's one thing an 428 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: Tonio Moore has talked about. We have a plug, we 429 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: don't have an outlet. There have to be places that 430 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: are set asized for us to build. Well, right, people 431 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: can say, now listen, as we know y'all got reparations. 432 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: Y'all want to own land, but guess what, we don't 433 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: want to sail to you, and so you don't have none. 434 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: There has to be something in place that says we 435 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: get a preference in terms of how we go about 436 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: becoming the ownership class. There have to be plugs, so 437 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: they have to be mechanisms and incentives for people to 438 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: kind of bring aidos into what we have been locked 439 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: out of. We've been locked out of wealth in this country, 440 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: and there has to be some kind of incentives to 441 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: bring us back into that. There have to be protections, 442 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: to say Lessen, I'm a fan of quotas in terms 443 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: of ads. You have to sell this much land. You 444 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: have to have this media aid our students, you have 445 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: to have these media aidos who are in this part 446 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: of check. You have to do that. All of that 447 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: is a part of what we're doing. It's not just 448 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: a check because if you make it just a check, 449 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: we become consumers and we try to buy stuff and 450 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: everybody says no. And eventually what happens is that people say, 451 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: you know what, I've tried to buy everything. I've tried 452 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: to become everything. There are no protections. Capitalists are still 453 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: weaponizing themselves against me. I'm just gonna take this money 454 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: by Lamborghini because I want to do something with the money. 455 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: The money has to move, and we have to have 456 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: places to plug into. When we have that money, there 457 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: have to be protections and places for us to plug 458 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: that money into to create our own ownership class. I 459 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: want to know again because I got to go back 460 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: to this, because this is where sometimes the reberen met 461 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: the road. How do you figure out the who? Why me? 462 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: Why you? Why not? Nicki Minaj whose people are from 463 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: the Caribbean or Drake from Canada? How do you figure 464 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: out who? If we get what you want? How do 465 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: we figure that out? Do you have one parent who 466 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: comes from American childel slavery and I'm gonna tell you 467 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: how to best figure that out? If you have a 468 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: parent who's a share cropper, like people say, oh my god, 469 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: it's really hard to do. We can't figure that out. 470 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: It's gonna be really hard. No, it's not. Before the 471 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: Immigration Act of nineteen sixty five, the overwhelming majority of 472 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: us right, it was mostly black and white. I'm not 473 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: saying oh, but disproportionately, that's what it was. So if 474 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: you have a grandfather, great grandparent who was a sharecropper 475 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: or whatever, you come from slaves, that's just what it is. 476 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: It's not hard to figure out we have records, but 477 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: if you're a black immigrant or if you come from 478 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: black immigrants, no you don't get reparations. This is a 479 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: specific justice claim is sacred. And see, the thing is, 480 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: we don't have any problem understanding that when we talk 481 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: about Native Americans. We understand that when we talk about 482 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: Native Americans and what they get, they get a specific satiside. 483 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: We don't have any problem talking about that. When we 484 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: talk about Holocaust survivors and their children, we don't have 485 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: any problem talking about how that's a specific satiside. The 486 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: same thing happens here. We're a specific group with a 487 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: specific justice claim. Now in terms of the people that 488 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: you talk about who come from the Caribbean and black 489 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: immigrants and their children, because we have children of black 490 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: immigrants who are not Black immigrants, they're Black Americans. What 491 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: we have for them are protections and a Black agenda 492 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: because they have a lived experience of discrimination. They don't 493 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: have the inheritance, the plunder, they don't have ancests who 494 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: came and slaveships, but they have an experience in this 495 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: country which is racialized. So the Black agenda helps protect 496 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: them as well as us against this racialized kind of discrimination. 497 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: So that is there for them, the reparations piece, though 498 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: it's just for us a lived experience of discrimination, not 499 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: the inheritance. Interesting duality. Our lives are all about opposites, Erica. 500 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: I mean, look at you and me doing this talk 501 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: about a lived experience? Yeah, well what what? What? Quick? 502 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: Whitney changed the subject, Erica, did you know? And preparing 503 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,479 Speaker 1: to introduce his reparations bill in the Senate, Corey Booker, 504 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: for instance, he discovered his family came from Sierra Leone. 505 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: Well that spangs of red beans and rice. I don't 506 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: even know what that means. But there's also the process 507 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: of elimination. Process of elimination. Well, it's this theory that 508 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: it might be easier and faster to determine which Black 509 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,719 Speaker 1: Americans are not descendants of slaves. Okay, this sounds like 510 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: a get pretty divisive. Okay, how do you do that? Then? Well, 511 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: you start with this, there are very few quote voluntary 512 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: black immigrants, if you know what I'm saying. You know, 513 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: with the exception of students in the United States prior 514 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: to the Immigration and Nationality Act of Hey, chuck out 515 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: the big brain on Whitney. Mind, if I have a 516 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: bite of your tasty burger. I'm just getting started on this, 517 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 1: so here we go. So what you do is you 518 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: comb through immigration records from then to now. Oh yeah, okay, no, 519 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: I I see where this is going. Go in, okay, 520 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: and you see who wouldn't be eligible for reparations target 521 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: only to American slave descendants, like Kamala Harris, like Barack Obama. 522 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: Like I'm not going to be the one to say 523 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: but yet like that, like you could remove one set Okay, 524 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: now when you just did say, but when I put 525 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: a name to it, you're back off, all right. Well, 526 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: leaving the people who do get the checks is the point, right, 527 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: And that's interesting. Well, we talked to Mary Francis Barry. 528 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: She's a historian, she's a lawyer, she's an activist. She's 529 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: a former chair of the United States Commission on Civil Rights. 530 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: Let's see what she says. If you are going to 531 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: have reparations for everybody, then one, you're not talking about 532 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: the wealthcare and the disparities and getting rid of it. 533 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: And I have no problem with everybody getting something. What 534 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: I do have a problem with is not directing targeted 535 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: funds towards black people who are slave descendants, who we 536 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: know that right here in the United States were the 537 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: ones to suffer and to be used to prop up 538 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: capitalism all these years. So anybody who was a slave 539 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: here in the United States and is a descendant of 540 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: a slave here in the United States ought to get reparations. 541 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: Other people can argue for their own. What I'm talking 542 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: about is what do we do about the descendants of 543 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: slaves here? People should demand reparations from the ones who 544 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: profited from their labor. It's so interesting America to see 545 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: if there are more sides to this than just whether 546 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: you're a descendant of American slaves or not. No, it's true, 547 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: and we don't talk a lot about class in America. 548 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: But while there are huge disparities and average income and 549 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: an average family generational wealth, the fact is that there 550 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: are poor black people, middle class black people, and there's 551 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: rich ones. I'm not one of them. I'm working on it. Yeah, 552 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: But I mean, so are you saying, does Oprah get 553 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: a check? Does Kanye? I don't know much, but I 554 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: do know this, Kanye has got a check tonight. Oh 555 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: Kanye is good, trust and believe. So where do we 556 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: say the cutoff is is individual income? Let's say over 557 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: eighty thousand a year family income over a hundred and 558 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: sixty thousand, Like for the stimulus is that you do 559 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: it that way? It just occurred to me that to 560 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: get some folks behind reparations, we should call it stimmy 561 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: two point Oh okay, agreed, you know, yeah, I like that, 562 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: you know, stimmy two point Oh, let's get it there. 563 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: I like that. Okay, But back to the money here, Yeah, 564 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,719 Speaker 1: well money. What if what if while we're at it, 565 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: what if a smart financially nuanced reparations policy could address 566 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: disparities of economic justice and capital formation in the black community? 567 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: What if the who questions could be addressed in a 568 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: smart way by the how? So, how are you going 569 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: to do this? Here's what I mean? And let me 570 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: see if I can tie some of this together as 571 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: we go. We've been talking about, or thinking of reparations 572 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: as a system of direct payments to descendants of slaves, right, 573 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: prove your ancestry, don't be Kanye, get a check. What 574 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: if that's too simple a model. What if we looked 575 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:22,719 Speaker 1: at uh yeah, separate payments for separate classes of damages. Yeah, exactly, So, 576 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: like small business loans to support black owned businesses, to 577 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: combat traditional bank redlining and black neighborhoods things like that, yeah, right, 578 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: or a program of home loans to combat the longtime 579 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: patterns of discrimination and segregation in housing. What about targeted 580 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: aids to schools in black neighborhoods. Don't forget the schools, 581 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, what do you mean? You know America hates 582 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: its children. You know nobody ever votes for schools. True, 583 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: but let's get back to your larger point. You're saying 584 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: that by tailoring the how reparations, you can finesse the 585 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: who is that what you're saying? Yes? Yes, And by 586 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: doing what I'm proposing, You send a check to the 587 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: descendants of slaves on a hundred and sixty one street, 588 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: You give a small business loan to her next door neighbor, 589 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: the Jamaican dry cleaner, and both of them qualify for 590 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: anti gentrification tax abatements to stay in their homes and 591 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: keep their neighborhood intact. So I see what you're saying. 592 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: You give them housing revitalization grants to keep their homes 593 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,239 Speaker 1: up to market value, and then you give both their 594 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: kids student loan forgiveness so they can pursue graduate degrees. Right, right, 595 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: And support the HBC used. They go to then give 596 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: those kids down payment grants so they can purchase first homes. 597 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: And in all of these things, the who and the 598 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: how interact, all of them could be part of a 599 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: targeted reparations package. I'm very impressed, Erica, But I have 600 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: one question for you. Is you still have no love 601 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: for Kanye? Yeah? I got nothing but love for Kanye. 602 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: You hear me, go Kanye? But what if there was 603 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: a way to see if you qualify for reparations? Ever 604 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: wondered if you qualify for reparations as an American descendant 605 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: of slaves. Let's see if these all stars do. Daniel Kaloya, Killer, 606 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: Mike Mohammad, Ali, Busta Rhymes, Shirley Chisholm, Lenny Kravitz, Michelle Obama, 607 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: Barack Obama, Colin Powell, Will Smith, Sasha and Malia Obama, 608 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: Holly Berry, Stacy dash Viola, Davis, Clint Black, Cecily Tyson, 609 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: Alfonso Ribiero, Nicki Minaj, Tracy Ellis Ross, Charlie's there on, Drake, 610 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: Nia Long, Notorious b I, g Rihanna. Next time on reparations, 611 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: The Big Payback in Jade, Christian Banking in the Old Testament, 612 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: there was always reparation rations. You never just took from people. 613 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: In fact, every fiftieth year there was something called the 614 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: season of Jubilee, and in that season of Jubilee, all 615 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: slaves were to be free, all debts were to be canceled, 616 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: all people were to be restored. And there was a 617 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: thinking among the earlier Jewish rabbis and all that if 618 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: it ever actually happened, that the Kingdom of God would 619 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: come in its fullness. In the New Testament, Jesus clear 620 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: they taught that if you stole from somebody, you didn't 621 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: just replace what you stole. You had to replace two, three, 622 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: fourfold what you stole and then salvation. And so we 623 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: have to understand the issue of reparation is a serious theological, moral, 624 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: and constitutional issue. This podcast is produced by Erica Alexander 625 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: ben arn On Whitney Down. The executive produced Who's Our 626 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: Charlemaine the God Dolly as the Bishop. The super Busy 627 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: Producer is Nicole Childers, and the lead producer is Devin 628 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: Maverick Robbins. The producer writer is serethe Castle, and the 629 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: associate producers Kevin fam This episode was written by Tony 630 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: per year, with additional research support provided by Nile Blasts. 631 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: Original music by d J d t P Reparations. The 632 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: Big Payback is a production of color Farm Media, I 633 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, and The Black Effect Podcast Network in association 634 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: with Best Case Studios. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 635 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 636 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.